Dr. K Interview: Life after a CULT

today's conversation there's a there's a lot to learn from today's conversation the first thing that i want to talk a little bit about is inappropriate affect and so sometimes like over the course of today people may notice that you know there's like it feels kind of weird as they're watching the interaction and that just tells you that there's like some parts of your brain that are able to like clue in and like something's not adding up here and so we'll we'll really see like this connection between inappropriate affect and like suppressed emotions and that the more you familiarize yourself with this the more that you dig into this like that's where there's stuff underneath also really a great exploration of of psychological defense mechanisms because we see them all in action and at the end of the day you know someone was kind enough to come on and share their experience of growing up in a cult welcome buddy hey nice over here um so and what's your name what do you go by uh you can call me zorian missourian okay welcome zorian and so i i didn't realize this until i you know hit the go live button on stream but apparently we're gonna be you're you were a member of a cult before yes i was a cultist okay oh a cultist so that that sounds like that sounds like a class you know it makes it sound fancier right yeah and and um people are curious are you're a cultist of of our cult or a different cult different different cult okay so maybe we can convert you by the end um yeah so brainwashed i was brainwashed oh okay so um is that what you want to talk about today or you want to talk about something else or yes so we can talk about that and i was thinking maybe uh we can talk about the psychological the harm it did to me i suppose like the insecurities i have because i grew up in that environment or what happened after leaving yeah zorin i would love to hear about that and if there's some way that that you know we can support you with some of that stuff i'd really love to try um so why don't we start with um you know kind of like how you joined or actually let's start with like like where you grew up and stuff like you know okay so here's how i joined i that's all was born okay so tell us a little bit about you know what growing up was third third generation third okay wow like my parents were already in the cold when i when i joined okay when you were born sure you can call it that okay and do you feel comfortable telling us like what the cult was or is that something you want to you know we don't want to do anything that will get you in trouble or anything like that it's not a big deal okay yeah so what can you tell us about the like what growing up was like in the cult yes so you asked earlier what the cult was about did you okay sure so it's it was a sex cult okay the leader was a pedophile okay oh god yes what does that mean it was a sex cult like what is the okay so the cult had a tradition of free sex okay and uh the idea was there was a tradition called flirty fishing where women would give like they would prostitute themselves to gain converts to gain comforts converts to converts okay okay conversions yeah yeah and and like so is this like an organization or what like how does this it's called the family international the fourth or the children of god have you heard of it and no but what is that does that sound like a call dude the family internet it up oh wikipedia look it up okay sometime so can you tell us zorian a little bit about like you know what tell us maybe a little bit about your parents and and what it was like living with them growing up sure so i had a kind of a unique situation uh even inside the cult because my parents were missionaries for the cult okay uh they what they would do is they would go around from city to city proselytizing okay yeah and as a result life growing up was we would resettle every 18 to 24 months okay new house new home new neighborhood a new city different country etc and and how would they proselytize so we would go out and let me see if i can remember exactly so we would get people interested about the cold like maybe try to shame them or guilt-trip and guilt-trip them into their negative habits and then they would we would tell them about jesus right and we would get them to say a prayer and then we would like my parents how they did it was from what i recall vaguely they did a sales pitch on the the cult i think okay and just getting people to join that was the idea um so zorian can we actually take a step back from the cult for a minute and like just what was it like growing up for you like were you in school and like siblings i was i was i was homeschooled a lot okay so and social interaction was limited for example no no like i had no access to books no accident like unsaid there was heavy sensors censorship no books no internet no music except music designed by the cult no magazines nothing nothing that could harm the image in our heads of the cult and what was the clue what was the image that you grew up with of the cult um so i felt like we were the chosen ones okay can you tell me a little bit about that yeah sure so so let's see so the cult was rife with conspiracy theories like there was this this idea that the illuminati was pulling the world strings and that the system anything outside the cult was evil right kind of scare us from trying to um access outside information right okay and they try to instill a sense of superiority in us to try and push non-believers away so that we wouldn't get contaminated right that's that's my analysis yeah and and so if you if your parents move to a new city like i'm curious when you're like eight years old and you don't go to school and you're not given access to books or the internet like literally how would you spend your day like what so that's interesting when i was um so let's be let's be a little bit more into details so i went to a regular school second grade and third grade okay and then from fourth grade up my parents decided to homeschool me completely because uh i don't know what the reason was actually i think i begged i begged them to homeschool me maybe that was my fault um do you remember how you felt when you begged them yes so i was constantly bullied okay and um so i had okay so i the reason why i backed them to homeless homes homeschooled me was because before second grade they were already homeschooling i see oh so so they were homeschooling you then you went to second grade and do you have a sense of why you got bullied i was so it's very very long time back but a lot of times people don't remember no i think it was uh i had a sense of being holier than you okay so so it was sort of like a superiority kind of thing that was baked into you okay and then yeah so once you started getting homeschooled then what was that what were your days like i would receive classes in the morning i guess oh yeah so there's there was this thing um this horrible horrible tradition so i hate it absolutely called devotionals which is like um mandated brainwashing uh routine activities shall we call it like okay so my parents would gather us children for um a time of prayer you could say you could call them and we'll read the bible we will read materials like written or published by the cult uh would listen to music we would pray we would do stuff like that memorize bible verses that kind of stuff okay we're listening to music designed by the cult and how long would those devotionals last like anywhere from one to two hours okay so you would do that every day and so it sounds like you're you were also learning like mathematics and how to read and things like that yes yes and so i it's kind of an unusual circumstance because i was taught i guess these things um from a very early age like my parents believed in education which was abnormal for the cult so i was taught to read and write in two languages from the age of two i was taught early math i was taught uh geography i was taught from earlier age okay and then what were things like as you grew a little bit older like let's say 12 13 15 17. so so actually before we go into the adolescent period yeah i would also my parents would take me proselytizing like yeah it's fine that's hard you have to pronounce that but i i have this vivid memory of me going like up to people and converting them to the cult how would you do that i was i was like six or seven years old and they basically used my cuteness my because children are cute right they you give you're more likely to give a child a chance yeah sure than an adult yep right so they would use me as a tool sometimes to convert people and i had like i had a like a little speech memorized that i would do and people would fall for it it was do you remember what the speech was or like pieces of it oh let me see and you know sorry you don't have to share anything that you don't feel comfortable with it's just i'm i'm so curious about you know what what do you teach a seven-year-old to say to convert people to your so uh the facade seemed very harmless right uh even to outsiders i would basically pray with them and they would i would recite a prayer and like i would convince people to say a prayer with me and i don't remember the exact words but it was something like jesus coming to my heart forgive me for my sins that kind of [ __ ] okay and then and wow okay so and then maybe what my parents would take over and explain stuff and a little and stuff i couldn't comprehend yet okay what country were you in if you don't mind me asking i think so at the time of this anecdote i think i was in peru okay all right and and so you know what what happened is you kind of grew up and hit adolescence what was that period of your life like okay so let's see i was very very convinced that i wanted to spend the rest of my life in the school okay um we were taught that we were the chosen ones and there were all sorts of like wacky things going on for example a lot of the lore was based on okay are you familiar with the bible yeah there's a book at the end called revelations yeah very familiar with it a lot of the stuff came from that chapter or that book in the bible um it was very we were our group was the chosen one and there was gonna be a lot a period of seven years before the end of the world as we know and the anti-antichrist was gonna take over from like uh the illuminati and whatever [ __ ] they were experiencing and our group would have special powers to attack or defend against uh who like the antichrist or whoever was on top right and there were like doomsday prophecies and that we were living like one of the phrases that was most commonly repeated was we are living in the times of the end right yeah wow okay so things i've heard from god zorian so i i'm so sometimes you know i'll ask people a little bit about growing up in their adolescence and things like that and and i'm kind of noticing that i don't know it's interesting i it seems like sometimes when i ask you questions about time it's like hard for you to put together like sort of a timeline and and i mean is that i'm not trying to you know shame you or anything it's just an interesting observation that i'm i'm wondering if actually like your experience of growing up was not like marked by like landmarks of change it seems to like oh it feels to me like it all kind of blurs together yes right and it's also the fact that i've been trying to forget most of these things for the last 10 years sure okay like after i left at the age of 18. i felt like i left and how did that happen my parents i love them deeply they my dad had this policy that after you're 18 you can do whatever whatever the [ __ ] you want right okay so at close around the age of 17 i was already getting fed up with the [ __ ] what is that what [ __ ] is that i was starting to be aware uh gain awareness that i was being emotionally manipulated and how are you being emotionally manipulated so son of stuff for example i was uh forced to do chores uh based on the idea that this is gonna sound completely stupid and completely out of field but it was it was a kind of god is watching you and taking notes right so if you fail to do your chores he's gonna take that as a sign of rebellion or that maybe you you can't go into heaven or that kind of stuff right that you're supposed to honor your parents or honor your your mother and father that kind of stuff and it was basically yeah it was coercion and why do you think that that sounds stupid good question i have no idea okay so let me ask no no okay wait okay i remember now so it sounds a bit it smells a bit like uh entitlement you know like i could have i suppose no no it's like first world uh cold life you know like worse things could have happened to me than being coerced to do my chores right okay like i could have been coerced into child prostitution for example which did not happen to me thank god yeah so i it's interesting i'm hearing some you know a couple of things here so one is like i wonder if you say it sounds stupid because i i don't think it it doesn't sound stupid to me at all it sounds like you know you are in a cult so of course you're going to be like forced to do things that are emotionally like you know based on emotional minifigures yeah but it sounds like a kind of an odd thing to complain about like it's not such a big deal right you're first forced to do tours so what yeah so i i think i feel like most people would say gain some perspective kid yeah so i it gets me to my question is do you feel stupid no okay and when you say most people would say gain some perspective kid like what you know that that sounds why do you think people would say that oh because i look at myself from the outside and i try to i see things objectively i guess yeah so has when you've shared this stuff with people on the outside has anyone told you that i've never shared it with anyone well oh not this specific detail i haven't shared it no okay and because i you know i know it's this is going to sound kind of weird saurian but i think that your attempts to be objective are actually the most subjective thing that you do completely you're right you know and it's interesting because when you when you talk when you think about like i want to just like notice and like okay so so it's not objectivity it's subjectivity from a second point of view yep so i think that's the view with which you judge yourself it's you judging yourself on the outside because i don't think that like at least i mean i could be wrong here and i'm not really paying attention to twitch chat but like at least i'm i'm sort of feeling very very strongly that like i don't fault you for anything that happened but what i'm detecting from you is that like maybe you beat yourself up a little bit for like falling for their emotional manipulation and like who are you to complain because you know other other people in the cult got child prostitution and you got out early and your parents taught you two languages so like who are you to complain yeah okay so it sounds like i i fault myself or somehow blame myself for uh being part of the cult yeah wasting my time basically yeah that's a good way to put it what do you think no okay uh and here's here's why here's my my explanation correct me if i'm wrong so after the cold when i left i felt a grave sense of loss um i felt like my most of my life or my entire life had been stolen from stolen from me yeah um and uh i felt very very bitter i suppose you could say and when did you start to feel like it had been stolen from you right after i left okay probably okay probably not the exact same day i left but in the next two years and and so i mean it sounds like you left at 18. so you are unhappy with like something about needing to do chores and being guilted how did you make the decision to leave i don't know i suppose i just didn't like being coerced and i told when i was on the on my 18th birthday i went to my pastor i told them i'm an atheist and i went to my parents and i told them i'm an atheist they accepted it so really yes what did they say well my dad was like you're 18. so do whatever the [ __ ] you want did he use the word [ __ ] there like was he upset probably not probably not no he wasn't upset but here's the thing i later discovered that my parents had actually left the cult when i was 15. they were just continuing with the culture i guess uh of child rearing after they left like they dumped all the books all the cultist material aside when i was 15 three years earlier but they continued to use the same manipulative techniques they had learned from the cult interesting how do you understand i suppose that played a role in their accepting my leaving the cult yeah because i mean it's it's strange right when i think about you know life i mean like multi-generation cults like in a kid comes out at 18 and says i'm leaving i i imagine based on you know i don't really have any experience with cults but yes but you've read the stories right yeah so i'd imagine that your parents would like you know freak out i've certainly you know worked with people who have had like very religious upbringings and they sort of tell their parents hey like you know i'm not really into this and then their parents will like flip out we'll ostracize them we'll like you know like don't you understand what you're doing to us and to everyone around you like it's such a bit like you know and i'm it's kind of weird that your parents were sort of okay with it i consider myself lucky in the extreme yes yeah so you consider yourself lucky but like what do you think about them tossing out the books but still continuing to do the emotional manipulation wow i mean my parents are a little bit feel like they're simpletons what does that mean like the reason for leaving the cult was dumb what was their reason for feeling leaving the cult i was they received the sign from god did you believe it and what was their sign from god the sign from god was my younger sister got sick to the point where she was uh i'm not gonna share something oh sure of course yeah um and and why do you think she got my younger sis got really really [ __ ] sick and the cult had this tradition like people inside the cult were taught that if anything negative happens to you it happens for a reason right that god is punishing you in some way right if you got a cold god would be punishing you you had to pray and seek his guidance right um and i think that is where my mom got the idea that she should leave the cult because my sister was so [ __ ] sick interesting and you think that that's a stupid reason yeah okay how do you feel about your parents i love them um [Music] i also think they're dumb sure are you angry with them so i was angry with them in the first four years and then i forgave them what were you angry with them for for having raised me in a cult that's a damn good answer well said and and then how did you how did you find how did you find the ability to forgive them i don't know i i do remember what what's the mental process the experience that led me to forgive them so i think i had an experience where i started to see evidence that my hate was ruining my life can you help us understand that okay so i was extremely bitter and extremely angry about everything that had happened inside the cult and like i felt like 18 years of my life had been wasted i lost most of the opportunities to learn things and i felt like most of it had been coerced like ed it was not my fault and i remember going on a date with a chick and she noticed that i was very hateful inside and uh i think i think the sign of it was i attacked uh an indigenous person that was selling trying to sell candy to me on the street and i attacked them and i told them to go kill themselves right and my date was like no you can't do that just stop we're we're done the date is over right and then i went back to my place i spent the entire night in reflection and then i came to realize my conclusion was my hate is ruining my life right so i did a 180 and first things i did forgive my parents i told my parents i forgive or gave them and then i tried i started i started trying altruism or helping people with no strings attached provided they didn't ask for my help okay and what was your experience of that [Music] he became a pretty strong hell belief until like a few days ago what happened a few days ago okay someone so there's this ego this ego what construal what does that mean so a construal is a symbol right like a phrase okay and it represents your ego okay and you talk about this all the time right ego uh when eel conflicts with emotions ego wins and when emotions conflict with logic emotions went right okay sure and this altruism thing of helping people with no strength attached was my ego and it was it was ruining my life how so i was giving until i had nothing to get and a few weeks ago i started to hit like rock bottom rock bottom because i started sleeping on the floor because i just i couldn't help myself but just help people i guess so what does that have to do with sleeping on the floor well sleeping on the floor is uncomfortable i guess right i have no i don't have enough money to buy myself a mattress okay and then but i sort of settle into it i start to feel comfortable or what's what's not comfortable content i have i've learned contentment shall we say do you find that you're more content like the more you kind of deprive yourself of stuff like does it feel like perversely good to like help people to the point where you don't have enough money to buy a mattress yes or not enough money to pay the bills and stuff like that and then a friend recently uh argued me out of that value or that ego like he made an art he presented a logical argument that my ego control was unethical that by helping people until i have nothing to give i'm actually helping bad people gain power because i'm losing power by helping others interesting so so not the person that you're helping but some other the more the less power you have if i yes if i start to help to a point where i'm losing power then i'm not i'm [Music] i'm not making as much of as of an impact as i possibly could sure sure right yeah and he argued it was unethical and so i mean you're sort of saying that a logical argument kind of brought you out of this so what's going on with your ego yeah so i have uh that that's interesting that's interesting i have an ego that says i must have a logical explanation for everything i do okay so this is how logic trump's emotion okay in my case because my it's my ego how do you feel about being so altruistic that feels good i guess but no it's that's irrelevant um how do i feel about being so altruistic that's a good question i'm not sure zorian do you feel stupid for being so altruistic yes yes i beat myself up for it yep we noticing a theme here i beat myself up for things yes definitely all the time yeah absolutely right and i know where it comes from i can tell you i know you i know you do so tell me so i am afraid of opportunity cost okay opportunity cost drives terror to me yep i think that makes a lot yeah and can you see where that comes from sure what's your name um you're sure you want me to answer first okay i was making i was like i'm happy to but but i i think that we'll learn more from you than we will from me okay fair enough you're absolutely right this is an education session so hold on pause for a second zorian let's think about what's happening right now i'm happy to give you an answer it makes a lot of sense to me that you're terrified of opportunity um and and i'm happy to share what i think about that but i just want to make sure that it felt like you've never you never asked me before like we've been talking about a lot of stuff this is the first time that you're like asking me about something so i almost feel like it's a test of sorts and i'm happy to take the test and pass her no no it's not it's not a test it's not a test i have a habit of asking people to make an educated guess about things because i'm a teacher okay do you want to teach me i can guess no okay okay my fear of opportunity cost comes from my parents moving around a lot when i was a kid how so when i was very very young let's say nine to ten years old i would go out into the neighborhood and make friends with kids and i would go i would grow kind of attached to the neighborhood and then my parents would move and that was unpleasant it was it meant losing my friends forever right that was like irreversible and bad so i because this happened so often i started to pay attention to any signs that we might be moving okay and my parents could be planning a move okay and when that happened i felt afraid okay yeah so what i would say um zorian can i share my answer sure so i think it's similar but i think that when you say you're terrified of opportunity costs i i think it's more of like what i would sort of detect from that is like a sense of grief and loss really not really grief but more loss that you've had you've you've had so much taken away from you that like everything that you do like it's almost like you've had so much taken away from you that like you don't really like you like every decision that you make now like has to be weighed very very heavily because it's sort of like you've already used up all of your freebies and so like you know you're on the verge of getting knocked out of the tournament like every single time like every decision you make is like the last decision that you get to make and if you screw up i'm terrified of irreversible mistakes yep right and and so so so i want to just point something out zorin so i i think that do do you have a sense of how you're feeling right now no okay so uh um something like some people might call this alexa plymouth when i was uh what i remember when i was like around 17 18 19 i felt like i was a robot i felt like i had no feelings it was weird um but then over time as i reflected a lot i came to realize that i do have emotions they're just kind of identifying them becomes it's a little bit [ __ ] it takes time okay so how how do you feel about that don't ask me i [Laughter] okay so how do i feel about so what hold on so we just got something there right you say don't ask me right so when i ask you how does that make you feel i don't have information yep so when someone get your teacher right so when someone asks a question and and someone doesn't have an answer how does that person feel wait wait wait can you say that again sure so you're a teacher right yes so when someone asks a question and someone else doesn't have an answer how does the person without the answer feel so when a student asks me a question nope sure just in general when when i ask when there's a someone who asks a question and someone doesn't have an answer how does the person without the answer feel who is the person without an answer the person who asked or the person who doesn't have an answer have the answer to respond the have doesn't have the answer to respond i don't know so i would say that when people ask me questions especially when i'm like you know in school and i didn't have an answer i felt stupid oh okay what do you think i don't have an answer no i don't feel stupid for being ignorant okay so i think this is what's kind of confusing so here's here's what i'm sort of getting from you can i share some thoughts what sure you're laughing what what is that i don't know so if you look at necessary conditions for laughter unexpected comes to mind and it needs to be i don't know so it needs to be something unexpected that is seen as not not harmful yeah okay so sorry we're going to take a step back because i think there's a lot of stuff going on in this conversation that i think can be hard to follow so we're going to try to i'm going to try to share with you what i understand okay i could be completely wrong here um so there there's some weird there's some weirdness and i i get the sense that you're smiling but you actually are feeling deeply deeply uncomfortable what do you think i don't feel anxiety i'm not yeah so i i like when i look at your eyes i don't think you're having a good time like when i look at your face i see you smiling but i see a lot of tension but i really don't think that this is normally when we see someone smiling like this we think like oh is this person having fun i don't think you're having fun are you having fun okay so it's a feeling of euphoria do you feel euphoria right now peony kind of genie okay so when we have a big smile and we feel a tiny bit of euphoria i think there are other emotions in there and part of what makes this really yeah so so i'm just going to toss a couple of things out the first zorian is that because i think it's like really how can i i was about to say strange but i think there's a lot going on in this conversation that is not being talked about so it's sort of like there's like a stage but then there's like this whole audience on the outside that we're not really addressing and i think that's part of what is is a little bit unusual about this conversation because i think you have a lot of stuff going on on the inside which you've done such an amazing job of keeping at the borders of like your consciousness so i know it sounds weird so the first thing that i want to do zorian is like really commend you um because i i think that you've really shown to me so like i know that you know there are all kinds of psychological impacts from cults and stuff like that but i think it's really hard to grow up in a cult and like have you know the fortitude to leave when you're 18 to notice some of the impacts that it's had on you to really because like like it's because if we really think about it like you know you kind of got screwed and you have to be a little bit careful about your self-judgment in terms of like you know if you look at like the average person they were given so many opportunities like you know people read them bedtime stories like their parents read the bedtime stories like their parents would go on trips and you got to like there was just really basic stuff right like most people get the opportunity to make friends and keep friends and really really like basic human stuff that was really taken away from you at a young age and and so i'm sure that there's a part of you so i think there's this like thread of like stupidity and judgmentalness which you have towards yourself which you try to push away through logic but the interesting thing is that when you talk about the construction between like logic overcoming emotion that still means that the emotion is there your logic may win but like really i think moving forward is like sure like logic needs to win like let's say it's 51 49 but then you're still like even if you can overcome that feeling of stupidity what i think really like what i what i what i see is like the next step of your growth is not letting logic win but not having logic need to win right it's really truly letting go of some of these things like ego and emotions and stuff like that and you're even doing it now right so there's been a change a little bit in in the way that you're kind of looking there's a change in the way like you seem more relaxed i don't know exactly what's going on but i just noticed you had like a big sigh which i think is good yes so i think you've managed to it's interesting because i think you've like been forced to come up with your own methods of survival in recovery of trying to build a life out of the shambles that you were given and i think everything i have i invented on my own absolutely and i think it's it's truly amazing that you've come as far as you have and at the same time i think that you know a little help will go a long way and and that there are some things that i think it's worth sort of re-conceptualize or like rethinking and i think i feel really good about this because i think you you've demonstrated so clearly that if you're given building blocks you can really build something so really what i want to do is not really give you answers but give you kind of building blocks let you play around with them and let you see if things are going better okay that's all nice um so the first thing is that i think we're seeing a lot of what calls in what what i would call inappropriate affect or discongruent affect so the display of emotion that you have is kind of like not doesn't jive with like what we're actually talking about really right so yeah right because you're like smiling a whole lot but like we're not talking about anything funnies organ nothing happens to me it's funny to me yeah so let's think about that right so so and this is what sometimes i think is going to make it hard for you to connect with other people maybe yes yeah right so like what's funny about what we're talking about like that's unexpected what's unexpected because you seem like you're at the verge of tears to me okay so [Music] i feel like my unconscious brain comes up with predictions that are different from most people's predictions yep and that may be from having a distorted world view from growing up in a cult or building my own world view after leaving okay i guess so i mean there are unexpected things happen all the time it doesn't make them funny i don't know what what what makes something funny is when the unexpected is harmless okay so here's an alternate hypothesis for you okay so sometimes we use humor as a defense mechanism okay okay this humor might be a defense mechanism yeah so i i think it is and i i think it's it actually is like it can make it strange for people to like observe this conversation because like there's a lot of inappropriate affect right and it's so easy to bring out like i mean if if i didn't know better i thought i'd think that you were like listening to a comedian on stage with like how much you're laughing and then the more that we point it out the funnier it becomes so as we call attention to things and we bring awareness to things it becomes funnier and funnier and funnier and generally speaking we're bringing emotion out of you but it's weird because you've got such a fat defense mechanism that we just get laughter right you can see it like it's just bubbling up like you can't even control it it's like what i'm just saying zory and you're laughing right now and you're like that's so funny that's so it's not funny bro okay and uh so right now um tears are welling up in my eyes yeah so you you does that have any meaning well i mean what kind of tears are they they're not they're not tears of joy yeah i feel like yeah right so i i it might be suppressed emotion it might be uh some kind of defense like in in order to avoid falling into a crisis where i just yeah yeah so i it's okay bro do you feel like what you're doing is okay or is there some part of you that you're overcoming that is telling you like this is dumb and you should know how to do this you know so if you're saying i may have self-esteem issues that's a no no that's not what i'm talking about what i'm talking about is right now in this moment is there a part of you that feels stupid and another part of you that's telling yourself that you don't need to feel stupid it's completely understandable no there's no such dialogue inside my head okay so the the first thing but but when you said it's okay bro i almost felt like i could cry yup that's why i said it right so i think this is where like how do you understand that why i kind of get emotional when you say this is you you give a sign that this is a safe place it's okay i don't understand really i don't understand the relationship between those two things sure i'm just gonna cry a little bit on my own if that's okay with you sure go ahead so what what does it mean to you when i say it's okay it's okay to show the repressed emotions that are wrong no i don't know yeah i i don't watch you i don't know what it is it's stupid yeah no it's it's good right so i think you're very good at educated guesses because they're logical and i hate saying wrong because that could make you feel stupid but but i i don't know i i love being told i'm wrong i love it it's it's okay it's fine okay sorry so what i'm trying to do is i'm trying to accept you okay okay i got you how does it feel to be accepted i don't need it there it is right why don't you need it i haven't thought about that because you have an answer for me real quick there no laughter you don't need it yeah and that's the sad that's the saddest damn thing really yes absolutely because you you're someone who's grown up without acceptance and so you've learned to live and function my parents loved me unconditionally is that not acceptable so that's a logical answer right like you're saying like if parents love you unconditionally isn't that acceptance so let me toss something else out at you and i'm sure you'll swat this aside but like when your parents leave a cult at the age of 15 and [ __ ] leave you in it they don't tell you and they continue emotionally manipulating you like you worked up the courage to leave the cult at 18 and they had done it three years ago and they left you behind so what do you think about that i hadn't thought about it that way i'm gonna be honest uh not consciously yeah no no it feels a little bit depressing what does that mean i don't know so it's gonna take time okay so here here's what i'm thinking zorian so the first thing is i think you're doing phenomenally well um i think that it's truly amazing how you've learned to become independent and survive on your own but i think it's like really challenging right because you don't need anyone's acceptance but boy do you want it because everyone wants it right you learn to live without a basic human need and when i start to demonstrate something to you unconditionally when i don't qualify anything that your your intellect can get around when i just say it's okay bro yes what is okay i'm not telling you why is it okay i'm not telling you what are we even talking about i'm not telling you there's nothing for your intellect to latch onto with that statement which is why it sort of sinks deep yes you're right right and even the you're right stuff like you got to be careful because that's your intellect being like oh that is correct now we understand the equation you're like stepping out of the emotion and then when i catch you in the act your other defense mechanism steps in and it's like [Laughter] so do you think my intellect is also a defense mechanism abs [ __ ] lutely amazing right and it's it's it is for everyone and because here's the thing like zorian you've got so much stuff to protect against on the inside because let's remember i don't know if you knew this but you were raised in the cult that was incredibly emotionally manipulative and probably quite traumatic so there's gonna be a lot down there and it's not like it it's a testament to your intellect that your intellect has grown so much your ego has grown so much but also makes like let's face it bro really stupid decisions like you're sleeping on your floor because you go out of your way to help people and i don't doubt that there's a certain kind of logic to that and and hopefully you don't feel bad i'm really careful about the word stupid but i'm trying to actually really walk a title up here so if you call me stupid i suspect i highly suspect i will not feel bad i think so i think so as well in this situation because of the way in which in any situation okay sure if you say so yeah so just because you don't feel bad doesn't mean it doesn't hurt right so if you're especially if you're lexa-thymic but this is where i think you've like you've like like it's it's fascinating because i what i see is like you you know i imagine someone who's shipwrecked on an island and has to like build everything for themselves yeah and that's what i see you as i see you as like some guy who through like ingenuity grit and a lot of hard work has constructed a water wheel in a rain catching thing and constructed like fish traps and like all these other things to like help you survive and at the same time all over again i'm not familiar with the reference but anyway so so so this is where like i also think that there's a lot of work that you still have ahead of you and some of it is going to be tough because what's happening is that you have like adaptations on adaptations on adaptations which are fine like they're good they've helped you and things like that but at the same time i think that for example like you're still very angry at your parents like you've forgiven them but i think that like like you're still incredibly angry with them which can be hard when they love you so much which can be hard when you've forgiven them which can be hard but like i think it's it's tough man and i've noticed yeah i think it's understandable so then the other thing is that you may not be angry at your parents you may just be [ __ ] pissed at the world and now we have to we get into really tricky territory because i think you've got to learn how to feel emotions that don't do anything for you because a lot of times when i see people who are hyper intellectual what happens is they're like there's no use to feeling that emotion i can't do anything about it and if they can't do anything about it they sort of discard it they're like there's no point they bury it the thing is the emotion doesn't really like go away just sort of like you know get saved on some remote corner of your hard drive where it just like kind of lingers and we're seeing a lot of things that you know sometimes you have these like drastic emotional reactions that you sort of recognize that you have hate within you once again really really awesome you know thing that you figured out it's amazing really i'm i'm really impressed sorry with how far you've come on your own and at the same time i still think that there's like a lot of stuff like going you know underneath like i mean you kind of say that your parents are simpletons which sort of makes sense but also like they came out of the cult were raised in the cult and emphasized education for you i think they had second thoughts about the cult a long time you know like they in the way that you were raised they were looking for an excuse to leave i mean i think they realized a long time i i think they realized that they didn't want to like raise you in the way that they were raised but anyway it gets complicated yeah definitely definitely so they were both orphans yeah so so i'm not quite sure you know what's going on there but um you know you know there's just there's just a lot of stuff like going on here zorya like it's it's it's hard to describe but some of the inappropriate affects some of the hyper intellectualization and and i think that you're not i hope i'm not making you feel kind of like naked or anything like that but but i i think that you know you really do have because it's it's kind of weird like i think whatever logical system you're using to that whines you sleeping up on the floor out of altruism may make sense but it feels to me like there's a blind spot somewhere in there and i think basically the blind spot is is is like some amount of these like emotions which i don't doubt that you've genuinely forgiven your parents but like i also think there's just like a roiling massive emotion like somewhere in there and and just yeah so don't you think if after four years of being extremely angry inventing at the world and uh like all the negative emotions come out and eventually dissipate yes and no so this is where you know the we haven't even gotten to what the psychological impact is and and potentially what you are dealing with now but so i think that like i kind of think about them as like little spawning machines that will generate thoughts so there's like a portal that like you know thoughts are coming out of and you can vent the individual thought but the portal can still be down there and and i think that you've done some of the process of digesting that but just the the degree of your inappropriate affect suggests to me that there's some kind of negative emotion that is under there um i see what i see what you mean right yeah i said it you got it so and and it's just like because it you know sure you can logically say that things are unexpected and that's why they're funny but like you know all kinds of unexpected stuff happens that isn't harmful but we don't i mean maybe the other option other thing on the differential diagnosis here is that maybe you're enlightened because sometimes enlightened people will laugh at all manner of things um oh [ __ ] see that's a genuine laugh right like that's actually funny i can see it in your eyes this time um what what do you think about all this [Music] oh i just realized so the other thing is that have you forgiven yourself i'm very bad at forgiving myself yeah so this is maybe this is the piece that i was missing is that like we talked about forgiving your parents and you may not have anger towards themselves but if we look at this sort of like you know your inability to forgive yourself and like how frankly how stupid you feel like i know that you don't consciously own that you feel stupid but we can definitely detect a theme of self-blame yes so when i make a mistake uh i feel self-loathing right so but how do you understand that so it's a certain kind of mistake it's a irreversible mistake something that costs me an opportunity and [Music] okay so i tend to go into i'm not sure if i'm answering your question but i tend to go into swearing fits to suppress blaming uh feeling bad about things that like mistakes i've done so okay there's i don't know if it was the answer to my question but boy do i like it more than anything else that you could have said okay so so i think there's a lot there right so you say you go into swearing fits what are you swearing at myself okay so like like this is where like uh and this is no this is gonna sound weird but like the way that you feel about yourself when did you start to feel that way about yourself the way i feel about myself what's the way i feel about myself let me just jump to it so you know i think you left the cult but the cult didn't leave you right what i'm hearing here is that like like the way that when they talk to you about your doing your chores and things like that and like god is watching and like you know it's not okay and like you're not worthy and or maybe you guys were chosen ones and it's it's sort of like i i could i could connect those two dots that once again is a hypothesis for you that like you know the self-loathing because when i think about when you talk about emotional manipulation and guilting and stuff like that like i think you've carried it with you yes so so i'm gonna just keep going some of the cult stuff is so [ __ ] painful that i've avoided talking about it for 10 years okay i just i just tried to forget and i push it into the corner of my mind that i i like i put it on their locking key and i do not talk about it how do you feel about yourself for doing that i i have no ability to answer that question do you feel weak asking that question to a person with alexa time is a little bit it's okay i i have no ability to identify if i feel weak do you feel stupid when you say does it feel stupid yeah is it an okay answer to say it rings a bell sure zorian any answer is an okay answer so here's what i would say you set it aside because it's so painful i completely understand i mean i don't complete i really don't understand at all to be honest but here's what i would say it's okay bro whatsoever you do with it it's okay everything that you've accomplished is fantastic and the fact that you haven't accomplished things is also fine you've missed out on opportunities you've made irreversible mistakes it's okay bro you're allowed to make mistakes i'm not i'm not allowed to make mistakes why not there's the smile again even if you don't allow yourself to make mistakes i'll allow you to make mistakes okay so mistakes cost time that's how i see it sure and i don't have enough time some of my time has been stolen i suppose so yes the remainder of the time that's left is more valuable when you put it into that perspective you can put it into that perspective all you want to it's not one that i'm going to adopt okay but irrespective of how logically correct it is right and this is where like like zorin what you really learn gotta learn how to do and it's gonna be really hard because it goes against everything because you're trying to make up for lost time you're trying to fix the past if you can maximize the time that you have left at the end of the day the scales will be even but here's the crazy thing like you can't ever make up for what's happened in the past yes i can only compensate no the same [ __ ] thing it's a synonym okay fine right so that's that's what you need to let go of and it's hard to admit that like you got screwed bro and that that maybe you blame yourself for it maybe you blame your parents for it maybe you blame the universe maybe you blame god whatever because god's off the table because you're an atheist and you've learned to forgive your parents so who's left where does the responsibility lie and now we see where the self-loathing comes from right because it's kind of strange like this is a really interesting like issue that kids have is before kids develop theory of mind which is the sort of understanding that other human beings exist they feel like they are in a single player game yep and so like all of that fault is yours and what i'm seeing from you time and time and time again is like harsh harsh lack of acceptance towards yourself i mean we we knew that before you told us that you swear to keep feelings at bay okay right and so like then you tell us like an hour into the conversation that i swear at myself and i beat myself up and it's like yeah okay i think we saw that coming and and so this is where it's it's going to be really challenging zorian because i think and and this is where you know i'm going to toss something out like i think you've got to let those feelings out and and this is the really challenging even harder than that i think you can let the feelings out problem is that i don't think you can do it with someone i don't know if you can tolerate showing the ugliest and worst parts of yourself to another human being and the hardest part about that because i just did it just a tiny bit is like them accepting you for being all that loathing that you feel towards yourself uncovering it is the first hardest thing uncovering it with someone else is the second hardest thing okay and then even then you've got an easy out go ahead you're right i i do not feel accepted yeah i feel like i need to be accepted but i'm too afraid to show the part of myself and because there's a fear of rejection nope it's not a fear of rejection what is it then it's a fear of acceptance my friend really i think so how because if they reject you is that new no it's not can you survive that rejection yes absolutely because you [ __ ] do it to yourself every single day okay okay what you fear is acceptance what you're terrified of what gets you going is not me telling you that you're stupid as you've told us when you say you're stupid when i if i call you stupid you're like doesn't touch me it's when i say it's okay bro that you're like [ __ ] you're right okay okay you're right abuse zorian you grew up in a cult your abuse resistance is 100 oh i see [Music] it's unconditional love it's acceptance it's admitting that you don't need to change that it's okay to let go of your opportunities that you don't need to be perfect yes all of those things that you're saying right now those make me feel like i want to cry how do you feel about that i feel good about it i'm happy for you zorian because it's like it's a painful journey but it's a good one and it's worth the opportunity cost i don't i feel like it's not even a worthwhile question to ask how do i get uh how do i overcome this barrier good great question why isn't that a worthwhile question sounds stupid there it is you see it always lurking every step forward that you try to take the question that you need to ask the important question there's your mind it's stupid don't do it zorian it's a dumb question so how do you move forward it's the most important question to ask so and and then then we get into a really tricky thing because if i say it's the most important question to ask maybe then you feel stupid for like hesitating to ask it so it's a dumb question because it should have a i suspect the answer is pretty obvious right and there there it is again okay so now like hopefully like twitch chat is following at this point maybe you're following because like do you see how no matter how we cut this problem the conclusion is like it's a dumb question to ask because it's obvious and if it's obvious then you are an idiot there it is like like it's it's a thing like your your logic is falling underneath this like emotional or like some scott or like the like you see like it doesn't matter how you cut this pie like the conclusion is always gonna be like zorian's an idiot right and if i say that to you it doesn't bother you at all because you tell yourself all the time like what difference does it make if like another person tells you you're an idiot because you tell yourself all the time no big deal yes i'm a big son i don't think you're a big idiot matter if it's true huh does it matter what you think if it's true that's it doesn't matter what you think if i know it's true maybe exactly right so so there it is again like you're discounting what i say you're like swatting it away like because where so what's the conclusion from that statement when i say i don't think you're an idiot you're like that's not true he doesn't know what he's talking about and the conclusion is that you are an idiot there it is we can play this game as many rounds as you want to go we're always going to end up in the same damn place which in turn can make you feel even stupider so it's like it's just not productive like well there's a certain amount of productivity there so what what do you do about it that's a good question okay okay so it's like even if i call you smart you think you're stupid and even if i call you stupid you think you're it's like you just can't win and that doesn't make you stupid it's just that's the that's the emotional thing that you've worked so hard to bury that it's like there and it's like clogging up your heart you're like this hidden folder on your hard drive that's clogging it up but like you it's hidden so you don't see it but it's action is always going to be there so the first thing you've got to do is awareness so i think zory this is something that you're gifted at the more that you're able to notice this pattern in your mind the more it starts to dissolve yes that awareness will start the process of emotional digestion second thing is that you say you haven't talked to anyone you haven't told anyone so like that's a good place to start right so this is where you know i'd highly recommend so sometimes i talk about our coaching program but this is definitely a case where i would recommend you see a real therapist right like like like go and and i it sounds like your financial situation isn't maybe the best right now so i don't know exactly what resources are available to you but i i think that you know this is definitely something where i would go and and talk to someone right because i think that you were conditioned to loathe yourself that's what cults do yes you're right and so it's interesting but to learn how to love yourself is like difficult like conditioning it doesn't matter like all conditioning is conditioning that we can condition you to load yourself we can condition you to love yourself and sometimes like what you need from people like because people are going to show you right like i'm going to make these weird statements which aren't logical like it's okay bro like good job zorian and you're like good job at what and i'm like everything anything i don't know all of it like it's those things like like someone's gonna have to show you and sometimes people are lucky enough to find this in a romantic relationship although i wouldn't recommend it you know it's like a roll of a dice kind of thing that you know like you need to be sure like taught how to accept yourself and it's going to be these little moments where like you're learning your brain your neurons are rewiring right now as these emotions come up as you start crying and things like that like there's rewiring going on in your brain as we speak so you just need to continue doing that rewiring and then like one day you're gonna wake up and like you're gonna when you make a mistake like there's gonna be like another dialogue that pops in up in your head which is like man that was kind of stupid but it's okay i'm never gonna argue with you about whether it's stupid or not stupid that's an argument that i can never win so the current way i avoid or get over beating myself up is whenever i catch that feeling whenever i start to insult myself i replace it with i what i like i write down what i learned from that experience nope incorrect okay you don't want to replace it that's the very opposite of acceptance you see that if we're replacing it you're not accepting it it's subtle really tricky so when it happens but i never load myself again after i do that so why does happen no no so so this is when you load yourself you should accept yourself for loathing yourself okay right don't just get stuck at the loading layer notice that hey this is me like beating myself up again and like it's something that i'm gonna work on but it's okay it's okay for me to feel this way okay oh because when you load yeah let me just finish this point when you load yourself it's the opposite of acceptance yes right so like if even if we it's subtle really subtle if we replace the loathing what we're doing is still not accepting ourselves so just unconditionally like accept whatever you are right i'm not saying that you aren't stupid what i'm saying is that it's okay it's okay it's okay it's okay okay so what's the point of this why should i accept this what are the benefits let me think about that question for a second like is this the path to enlightenment this question feels like a trap to me no it's not but oh i think it may be hold on okay i'm trying to decide if i'm reading too much into this when you say what's the point of this yes okay i'm gonna just answer so i think the point is because like i don't think you have to live this way anymore i don't want you to live this way anymore i think it's it's incredibly sad and devastating that you've been living this way this long okay okay you okay that's okay i could use a little bit of reassurance it's okay let me yeah what i'm thinking about that zorin i kind of feel like we are at i want you to really like sort of sit with how far we've gotten i'm a little bit concerned because that that other the next the last question you asked i think is like opening up a new thing do so i'm sort of feeling like this is a good place to stop at least from my exploration now if you have questions i'm more than happy to answer them but like i think how far we've come is actually like a like i want you to sort of not go any farther than this because i think this is the thing okay does that make sense no okay so like i think that there are further conversations that need to be had but this piece you need to work on first i think okay and i don't think any amount of other intellectual understanding is going to like really improve anything okay does this would you say a good step in the right would say it's step in the right direction if i get rid of my intellectual ego sort of because i think once again getting rid of replacing is not what we want to do so your intellectual ego will subside when it no longer needs to be there so it's not about getting rid of the intellectual ego it's about no longer needing it to protect you right so so right now your intellectual ego is like the tool that you fashioned that allows you to like start to put your life back together so i'd say don't get rid of it it's there for a reason okay but that ego comes at the cost of like burying all this stuff and this weird self-loathing that you have left over and you can work intellectually with your ego as long as you want to i suspect i mean maybe you can overcome it i guess technically you can but i'd say that they're easier not easier faster ways that may be a little bit it's going to be uncomfortable for you because like you have you fashioned such a brilliant and capable intellectual ego that letting it go and and like entering a territory where it can't do its job it can be very scary but i think ultimately that's what you need is like emotional healing okay any other questions is getting rid of my fear of irreversibility a path to accepting myself same problem getting rid replacing right wait is replacing a better word nope they're all the same word they're all synonymous right so so like like the thing is like i don't think you need to get rid of your fear this is the whole problem is that like you're always rejecting parts of yourself well yeah because i need to improve no you don't that's what needs to change it's okay bro that is deeply unsettling yep it feels wrong yep should i should i navigate to a place where it feels right nope to accept who i am right now and just not want to move any more yep is that the destination you're there's no destination you're already there [Music] what do you mean you're you're great just the way that you are you don't need to do a damn things orient okay so you're saying there is not a tool i can fashion [Music] just sit with your [ __ ] emotions close your eyes you feel deeply unsettled don't go anywhere just sit with that feeling of being unsettled you don't already okay so it's so like what all you need to do is just sit with it you don't need to do you need to go anywhere you don't need to change it you're great it's not a good idea to like make it surface and then sit with it sure you can make it surface and sit with it but okay we sort of did that just now and i think there's a certain amount of tolerance you have which will build up over time so this is why like i think you should see a therapist right because the therapy is different huh maybe my friends will help me yeah so i think this is where like they can teach you how to learn how to sit with yourself that's all you need to do you can't fix that which isn't broken interesting so i i think what's broken is that this is very meta what's broken is i don't recognize that i don't need to be fixed something that's preventing me from realizing that yeah that's that's also that's gonna go like add infant item because that in and of itself is what's like you're just i'm i'm starting with the presumption now we're getting intellectual that you're not broken and you're like what's broken is that i can't recognize i'm broken and there we are again like you can play this game like you can run circles around me zorin it feels true yep yep absolutely right so like look who isn't alexa thymic anymore it feels true absolutely because it's a feeling you start with the the conclusion the emotional conclusion that you are busted in some fundamental way and so as long as that is there like no matter how much logic you use you're going to wind up in the same damn place so it's like an emotional thing that needs to happen so i'm gonna leave you with a different kind of meditation practice if that's okay is it okay if i give you a meditation practice and we wrap up or do you have other questions no i'm fine with it let's let's do it let's do the meditation okay i want to give you a colon because i think that'll a koan is like one of these paradoxes um but i have to try to think about i'm just trying to think about a good koan so it's like something that meditators use to try to break themselves out of this intellectual cycle because your intellect will like so it's something that fundamentally doesn't make sense um okay but it doesn't make sense no there's no trick to it the point is that you have to abandon all tricks so this is what i want you to do i want you to watch a rock grow okay i can do that okay just watch your rock grow sounds like fun okay good that's the point okay well that's sort of what i've got for you zorian i didn't mean to hopefully i wasn't too abrupt with how we ended things but i really think it's going to get repetitive and you're actually moving further away from like where you need to be with the more questions that you ask and maybe that makes sense maybe it doesn't but you're now we re-engage your intellectual mind and all your questions are like i think we like we had a couple of wins in there when you were like this feels deeply uncomfortable like good that's what we want right like this feels wrong this feel like so like you're becoming less lexa-thymic over the course of the conversation which is really good so now you need to kind of like practice some of those skills go see a therapist and watch watch your rock grow i'm serious like sit down and just watch it grow and then pay attention to all the things that your mind does at first it's like oh look like it's this is going to be the trick that teaches me things and then that's going to be there for a little while then you're going to be like actually this is stupid i'm not the trick isn't working and then your mind is going to tell you to stop and then you're going to be like no no if i continue then i'll discover the trick i'll discover the trick of it and then you're gonna be frustrated again you're like there's no stupid trick there's no it's dumb and then like if you continue with it then hopefully you'll figure it out but there's no trick and as long as you think is that there's a trick you won't find it right so you're telling me that if i sit long enough with this eventually i'll get used to it nope i don't know what's gonna happen i'm telling you it's a waste of time and you should do it anyway i like that okay right okay good luck to you zorian and thank you very much for coming i hate the fact that it's ending so soon but yeah i understand it can feel unsatisfying but this this is it i hope you don't view this as an end i really think like this is an important beginning and we're not i'm i'm happy in a weird way that you feel a little bit hungry because like that means that this was good for you and so like i encourage you to go eat again like find a therapist seriously okay take care man see you emma i love you love you too all right chat

Channel: HealthyGamerGG

Views: 208,025

Keywords: mental health, drk, dr kanojia, healthygamergg, healthy gamer gg, twitch, psychiatrist, alexithymia, cult, the family international, cultist, growing up in a cult, emotional suppression, emotions, emotional processing, self acceptance

Id: ldTMLhTMZAc

Length: 86min 42sec (5202 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 08 2021