Donahue: Black Against Black Prejudice (1994)

black men are attracted to light-skinned black women with long hair do you believe that Kathy Russell you are co-author of the color complex do you believe that overall yes I believe that mm-hmm and is it your view that this is because of a white world that respects lightness yes absolutely absolutely so that the black man then internalizes this and sees lightness as better sexier right right is it akin to a white man being attracted to a blue-eyed blonde woman these are the women in the white world we think of as sexy and beautiful etc right and and the comparison in the black world to the blond-haired blue-eyed woman is the light-skinned african-american woman so it's huh is it true that in your own life you had a you dated a man who wouldn't marry you because he why well he said that I wasn't quite light enough to be as his wife but took to bear his children that was what he said but I think it's not a personal vendetta of mine I want to make that point upfront it's just something that that I've seen throughout my life and that's why yes you your book includes phrases like high yella yeah those are you know those are terms that the people use to describe others color uh-huh you know high yella is is that good or is it is it offered in a sneering way no that's all I would say that's offered in in sneering way mm-hmm but this has divided black families has it now definitely and do we not have a lot of pain out there from men and women I would think mostly women who took a lot if you're light-skinned there was a resentment absolutely and also you know it's really what are you just curiously may I ask on the scale seeing that's it see it's a strange thing I had been everything from light to darkness it really depends on when you're sitting next to if I'm sitting next to this gentleman I become lighter if I'm sitting next to someone that's dot lighter than I I become darker and because I'm kind of in the middle that's why it's all really crazy because it just depends on how you see it but it's important enough for you to do a lot of work on this and to co-author the book well because I think it's caused people a lot of pain and that you know that's why that's why I wrote we wrote we wrote this you also tell stories of black parents who are disapproving when their children or a young adult the teenager brings home a dark skinned date yeah and and the thing is not all black families I mean my mom isn't like that it's just some that are like that you sit next to your co-author midge Wilson you likewise are responsible for the color complex you're a social psychologist from DePaul University and may I say it should be said you're a white person there was a time in this country when we might have had some tribunals that would demand that you prove it that's all yes as the people who wrote the law you you believe that first of all this kind of prejudice exists within the black community that is my understanding and especially after working on this book because I think a lot of whites don't realize the extent of the prejudice yeah tell us about your own how the scales fell from your eyes your your academic and you did a lot of scholarship on this tell us I grew up in the south and I heard things white people would say like light-skinned blacks are more intelligent this is known as the mulatto hypothesis and it's a very arrogant assumption on the part of whites that if they have some white blood in them then then that makes them smarter because they're more like us or you hear other things like dark-skinned black men are more criminally dangerous more sexually driven and they're all these crazy myths that exist in the white community about african-americans on the basis of their skin color just to stop you for a moment now we have the proverbial white person walking down the street at night and coming the other way our black men now the question is who's going to flee to the other side of the street and in your hypothesis if those black males are very black the fleeing will become will take place with more virgins yes because there is a perception that the darker the skin the lower the class the angrier and this isn't true there are some there is a color class hierarchy in this country but there's there's no one-on-one relationship there's no one-on-one relationship between skin color and intelligence and is it your view that the but but this is a very sad commentary if we've got this kind we have black people who are adopting are the the same kind of racist chemistry that has exploited them for so long by the white power structure it's a clear case of trickle-down discrimination and I think African Americans have been hesitant to talk about this issue we don't want to air our dirty laundry but they've got to because whites play a role in perpetuating it and whites have to look at what they do every day to keep this issue alive and when when Spike Lee made that comment it was Spike Lee who said that black men go for light-skinned women with longer hair and he also made the point that a lot of people can we see it he also made the point that a lot of blacks become very uncomfortable because he was he was saying that let me show you here this was a this is school day she's talking about her hair stand in a hall either excuse me that's better miss fame you heard it ain't even read you wish you had here like this girl you know you weren't even born with blue eyes that's right blue contact lenses it's just jealous jealous Rachel I've been watching you look at Julia okay you're not slick if that was true he wasn't much to look at Barbie doll hi yellow heifer tar baby want to be white [ __ ] well there's the litany of dirty names to call people if here's what that's from school days of film directed by Spike Lee here's what he said whether black men admit it or not they feel light-skinned women are more attractive than dark-skinned and I'd rather see long hair than a short afro because that's closer to white women that comes from being inundated with media from the time you're born but constantly fed you the white woman as the image of beauty that's both conscious and unconscious said mr. Lee but on the halt talking to my friends and knowing men I see that a premium is put on light-skinned sisters with long hair all true huh all true and it's bad because first of all it penalizes persons it's arbitrary right absolutely and not only that but I think you're taking you're buying into you know the myth that somehow white is better so therefore lighter is better and I think that it then takes out so many other african-american women that are beautiful whether they have short and my feeling is this african-americans come in looks everything from Whoopi Goldberg to Lena Horne and all in between and it depends on your personal preference as to what you feel is beautiful and that and that's another point to be made there are prejudices but there are preferences Jade weird Giles is CEO and publisher of image magazine do you agree with mr. Lee would Spike Lee's observation about light-skinned winced a little bit you do absolutely and how do you feel about that well the one problem I have here is that first of all this is no new phenomenon this is not something that just took place like within the past century or past decade or so this is something that was here from the time that we were brought here from the time that your forefathers or your forefather stepped into my ancestries bedroom well we should manage of that we shouldn't be surprised when you consider how your life would change if some white guy and the power a powerful white man could prove you had a drop of Negro blood that certainly altered your life well Phil it's a very interesting point because I'm not so certain that you're all black all white I'm not sure I know you know I'm sorry I'm sure enough no my point my point is my point is that this is where this began and what is really ugly is how it began and that is what white America doesn't want to face that is what black America knows we know this it is true I would I would add not only for african-american men but for African American women too or people of color women of color too because you see an inundation now of hair weaves hey you know and and I understand the issue of cosmetic changes and so forth like you know that's at that I can understand however when you weave in a white person's hair on your head and you call yourself a proud black woman we have a problem here what's the matter what she didn't leave anybody else's hair on her head you have a problem a problem with cornrows do you no I don't have a problem with cornrows and if we're talking about using what is natural to you yeah you have a problem with straightening straightening hair if your apply if it was intended to change who you are yes I think if we want to talk about when it all started we talked about before the slaves got here the Caribbean slave owner actually was talking to a slave owner in South Carolina before he got a slave he said you know how am I gonna keep these slaves in line you know I don't have any clue as to what we're gonna do so what he actually did was the slave owner in the Caribbean islands actually wrote him a letter back saying to him listen you got to start to create some kind of dissension between them and it's what you gonna do you gonna call and one bring them in the house and the darker-skinned ones going to creat some kind of friction between themselves and that's where it all started I'm going to talk about how to start here in America we can oppress these people better if we can get them to fight with each other absolutely isolate them before we break here Muhammad may see who Ali is a writer and musician and are you born in Ghana yes I was born in gun uh-huh you came to the United States in 1988 1988 so your early life and adolescence and young manhood was in Africa back home in Africa huh and you came here and you said among other stuff all Africans prefer to marry and date lighter skinned Africans is that so yeah that's what a true same thing you're here to confirm what we're the same is true in Africa it's very true in Africa to you you wrote an article for a publication which said blacks can be racist too and you were merely pointing this out isn't that right yes and you took a good deal of abuse for saying this out yes I did I did I got letters from a lot of letters from people all over the country and someone I remember called me an exotic pet for white people you know cause you were great you you were you lived with a white family in a predominantly white suburb in the state of Michigan Michigan yes and you wrote about prejudice in Africa mm-hmm which certainly does exist it does that is that is what is killing Africa I believe I mean what happened in Liberia is about blast against blacks it's about try people try of skill and tribes and that is what is happening right now you know in Rwanda in Rwanda here here's just one this is number 20 let me just this is one letter you got these whites would be I assume this is from a black reader these whites would be terrified at living in a black neighborhood but they would invite an African student to live in their house as a kind of hypocritical show of liberalism subconsciously the white family you live with probably saw you as some exotic pet I do not believe in that at all this young man's point about getting the poor people to fight with each other is made in this other letter to you Muhammad the hypocritical whites who invite Africans into their house also have the evil practice of advising Africans not to associate with African Americans the usual divide and conquer play you see what bothers me a lot here is all blacks from Africa and here in America we always tend to say they they made us they are dividing us so that we could fight and and I believe that if we do believe that whites have the power to divide us then we buy into the idea that we inferior I don't believe so I don't believe anyone has the power to make me to hate you let me start with Cassandra and Mimi if we may you don't mind Cassandra you were in line at a restaurant yes and Mimi was an employee was she not correct yes and those along was like a fast-food place yes it was uh-huh it was your turn to be waited on was it right what did she do she buy pants mean to wait on the whites they were in line behind me and I had a problem with that which she said it's because I took up my took too much time to make up my mind and why do you think she did that Cassandra well after even knowing her a little bit longer I see that she has a tendency to gravitate towards whites when she needs an opinion on something and this was since the incident and also she has a problem with the determining colors within our within the workplace she has a tendency to tell individuals that she knows she's not as dark as someone else and she's her kids are not dark complected and she prefers to buy her children white toys and she practically discriminates against anything that's dark complected when when she herself is did you didn't go to court and learn this dude no no you just but after this how does it that your you know what occasion you're talking to her about it well due to an unusual circumstances we we become employed at the same office now and this has continued to happen because I see pictures of her daughters with white dolls and an individual at work that her friend gave her a black dollars even remarked that she didn't know if her child would play with that black doll you you do I Mimi you do wait on white people first now it depends I mean if you're standing in line I'm gonna I'm working at a fast-food chains fast-food and you're still looking at the menu then I'm gonna get the next person in line so you're suggesting that because she was taking so long for efficiency and to expedite the orders you don't believe it well bowlers are pretty what are you now we're gonna get the you're gonna get the tree and the horse and the rope and let's go to that tend to me first if I was next online I don't believe that anybody should be discriminated no matter how long it takes them to make a choice yeah [Applause] that's not discriminating against anyone if you're standing in line and still looking up at the at the man you think that means you're not ready yes hey on just second I'll get to you in just a moment do you date doubt dark-skinned men dark-skinned man no she doesn't it depends on what you call dark dark-skinned man I don't consider you dark but I don't consider you dark but but the minitor levels have been lighter than you yeah obviously here what we've got the beginnings of the sketch of a profile of a person who's not at all comfortable with your own blackness [Music] she's not all I can think of is just brainwashing I mean that's all I can think I've seen it on all levels so just being for me a light-skinned black person I tend these balls I don't know want to say where but where it used to be predominantly hi Ella hi yellow light skin like bright damn near white people and damn near white as in do you think you're in other words there's there's a disdain for you because of this color of your skin and a presumption that you strut because you're not as black as some African Americans I mean that wasn't I wasn't going with that intentions but I heard one of my friend's mother say yes honey you're here to breed correctly and of course all these young light-skinned gentlemen gonna be doctors and lawyers and I'm like I'm not horse you know like I don't want to breed that way you know that brother here he's attractive you know like I really don't care color issues not a joke [Applause] who your parents are because I had black dolls my parents colored in our birthday card it's like this is a black child you know it makes a difference you have to start within let's just this young woman presents just one side of this agony and it is an agony man this is this is a spiderweb that we've woven here that gets some very nice people caught up and distracted Paul Parker I you'll you'll be telling us in a moment about first of all you support what's been said here light-skinned blacks have always been favored by whites definitely let me tell you that one case in point here happens to be seated at your left she's Donna Stuart miss Stuart you are the admissions counsel for the University of Colorado at Boulder yes so good old Boulder decides by God this is the 20th century and we're got to do something about minority enrollment etc etc and very conscientiously insures that there's a woman of color in the admissions office certainly not the only one I would set it to a team of counselors all right but in any event it was a very well motivated thing that the University of Colorado Boulder was doing I'd like to hope so yes yes and you had a prospective students mother say what well it admits programs we always have parents that volunteer to come and assist with the program and say this is what the university is all about this is what I do as a parent for the University and evidently a parent without approaching me without asking me where I stood on issues for people of color went to the Chancellor and wrote a letter petitioning the removal my removal from the position saying I want justification for why you hired her and later on she applied for my position was this a woman of color yes it was but tell them what her grievance was she didn't feel that I represented black issues which but it was because of your lightness was it minute I suspect though so you're not light enough are you're not dark enough to be recruiting minority students for the University of Colorado Boulder is this not what you believe to be this woman's lutely but but people don't understand is that even though I am considered high yella in the community I get it from both ends and that's clear if your lights are disdained by other people of your race or some of them yes and teachers we need to be honest and say that teachers most of whom in America happen to be white at least where I have been are very careful about who they make as their pets who they send to the office and they always choose the lighter child like we make this clear as well that number one that there is not no black on black race racism what there is is black on black confusion is agree bye-bye white on black racism there come on the point of the brother may here earlier on the innovation you're talking about the slave owner from the Caribbeans is woody niche and more that's his perspective was that look he told other slave masters that in order to keep your slaves in check you had to more that's with the divide and conquer aspect pick one the brother one light-skinned never like against a dark-skinned black you got the house Negroes you got the field Negroes you always tell the light-skinned black side look like you you're better than the rest in blacks you know you got better things going you look you look at me you're closer then I got dark you are the ones that actually aren't the ones that's good yeah I know you down sister lots of folks wanna hear to me I to me the tragedy is there's no way to win if you're black and in a major corporation do I understand that your strategy was not to talk to other black people absolutely and talk to other black people was no way that was at the time when I had lost my identity and I had lost perspective of who I was okay when I bought into what you wanted me to buy into you save me I let me take go ahead don't get distracted folks one in here yes here make your point listen I respect at that time when I did that I believe that if I were to communicate with my brothers and sisters I have to not be able to make it further me like at the watercolor or the Xerox machine was really because you whoever you are I mean if I'm looking at you as one of a number of I'm saying yeah absolutely I white America would look and say you know what mm okay he's not going you know you I saw I saw Jo over there by the water cooler when you start talking to the white folks the brothers are gonna kiss your suckin up so you can't win the question is who do you owe your allegiance and I owe my allegiance to my family okay these are my family here Black's turned from from the Boston Globe this is a very very well-written article from a paper that's had its own challenges regarding I mean already hiring etc Black's torn from their native Africa and brought to North America as slaves were often sexually savaged by their white masters so prevalent was the problem the question of whether light-skinned children should be free like the father or enslaved like the mother and that gave us the one-drop means you're black or a Negro in turn light-skinned slaves with white blood often fetched higher prices at auctions some states actually bred mixed-race slaves and sold them at quadroon balls in New Orleans and Charleston South Carolina quadroons are one quarter black octoroon are one-eighth black listen to this light-skinned slaves were also afforded greater privileges they were often assigned duties within the house instead of working in the fields then we had the paper bag test tell him about that well the paper bag test was a person had to put their arm into a regular paper bag and if their skin was lighter than the bag then they were admitted into a social club a fraternity a church whatever the bag was used to test if it was darker than they were denied admit today skin bleaching products Garner forty four million dollars annually although many black women use items such as ambi fade cream porcelana and esoterica only to fade freckles or other marks we have not a few black folks who have quite literally damaged themselves seriously with some of these products and now which brings us to the question of Michael Jackson here is here is the single most successful measured in terms of money entertainment figure in the history of the universe he calls so much of our own fascinations to our attention we have a Peter Pan issue we could do several shows on that now we suddenly have who was the comedian on Saturday Night Live who said if it don't make no difference if you're black or white Michael how come you're white attitude that he's working once again with that sickness tomorrow that's be accepted within the whole world spectrum for more or less if you're in the bottom line is especially here in America if you're more dark skin and dark complected then therefore we are not allowed to move up the economic ladder as easily that's where it comes from as far as you get the son brothers and mother sell out to go get a white woman saying okay in order for me to have the economical power to be a millionaire I'm gonna give me a white woman we're gonna have some kind of mixed babies or babies that you know ain't straight you know black black on the tip and then therefore we able to move up a lot better definitely come from from the hospital talking about with this black I'll make it that black sickness that maybe this more that's been fed into but the first day that Michael did when he got into trouble what'd he do he came to the brothers and sisters he came to that to the hood he went he went to the n-double-a-cp he came back home said look they working to persecute me you know I'm like like you and he came back to the house back to the [Applause] whether whether or not Michel success has anything to do with his himself getting lighter and lighter but if you really look through the album's Michael you know became successful after each after off the wall Lu started changing and each each album afterwards he changed a little more little more he became more and more successful more and more successful now I'm gonna read a white woman yeah miss Stewart I know you want to get in here and I promise that you will may I just share in to respect your point about what are we going to do about this how to minimize the damage that colorism will inflict on future generations just to give you a couple ideas here interracial color discrimination must be brought out of the closet we're gonna go over here here more research is needed to document the effects of the problem on the african-american community white personnel managers therapists teachers doctors should be better informed about color prejudice black parents need to alert their children to color bias and teach them how to respond to what Americans of all races must work together to overcome stereotypes about color including assumptions that dark-skinned black men are more criminally dangerous and that light-skinned black women are more feminine and beautiful array for that it's a wonderful ideal I'm not sure how we begin the process of doing it especially since as we've already established it's so ingrained I would ask you the Stewart right I think that when we concentrate on backup first of all there is no question that in the past and probably currently right now we are dealing with preferences for persons who are of lighter hue that is established but what happens from here on out is that we really need to look at not back lashing against persons of fair skin and just assuming that they can be the canvas on which we can paint the hostility that we have you take that paint and put it somewhere and not put it in the black community I just wanted to say that I think we as black people are our worst enemies in the perfect example is what the young lady on the right said that she considers herself not black we are all black people I don't consider that how can you say I'm black go ahead give I just don't see how you can save a human being right but because of the society that we're in she has been you're not I just don't feel that you are proud of your race as I am [Applause] you

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Id: ClMrs9mXcYg

Length: 28min 34sec (1714 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 19 2020