Detective Realizes Killer Is Hiding The Unthinkable

this never before seen footage is one of the craziest interrogations you'll ever see hey I could grab your camera strangely with it oh my gosh why would you say that I thought you're a [ __ ] weirdo and she helped me over and laughed I would like to see how fast my picks could get rid of a human body an officer conducting a search warrant for identity theft on a rural Farm in Weimer Oregon stumbled upon evidence of a far more gruesome crime he found the skeletal remains of a human leg just outside of a pig pen possibly human as horrific as this discovery was the true Horrors hidden on the property were yet to be discovered the farm was owned by Susan Monica a former soldier who served in the Navy during the Vietnam war after being honorably discharged she purchased the 20 acres of land where she raised chickens and pigs she often had transient people stay on her farm and worked for her for short periods of time additionally in 2013 Susan placed an ad on Craigslist looking for some extra help on her property she was contacted by 56-year-old Robert Haney a handyman and Carpenter in exchange for payments and cash and a place to stay Robert began working and living on Susan's property however all was not well and in September 2013 after working for Susan for about six months Robert disappeared after a few months with no contact his children tried to find him but Susan told them that Robert had left her employment taking most of his things and vanished [Music] this is another living area tool belt she claimed that after he learned that one of his relatives had been a victim of assault he began drinking excessively before suddenly leaving hearing this was distressing to say the least but Robert's kids couldn't find anything to indicate that something bad had necessarily happened to him in fact they found very little trace of him at all however it was especially odd to them that he appeared to have left his trailer and dog behind on Susan's Farm eventually they filed a missing person's Report with the Jackson County Sheriff's Office but since Robert was usually paid in cash for his work there was almost no way to track him down everything changed on January 10 2014 when an officer came to investigate Susan's property however he wasn't there to look into Robert's disappearance instead Susan Monica was being investigated for fraud after she was caught using Robert's food stamp card this is the inside of Susan Monica's living area where we contacted her this morning when we arrived it was while walking along the back of her farm that the officer found the remains of a human leg cut about mid femur lying just beyond one of Susan's pig pens pieces of other bone Susan Monica was brought in for questioning the following footage has been analyzed by a qualified team including a licensed attorney and former criminal prosecutor a licensed clinical psychologist a former licensed professional counselor and a clinical counselor the interrogation will uncover even more dark secrets that detectives never expected to find well this is a worn and it's um just says your commanded to search the property before the interview begins Susan asked for the search warrant the officers first used to come onto the property to be read out loud as you'll see she has a very interesting reason for asking them to do this in the lot number and indicates you as the sole owner since 1999. there you go say that again the sole owner since 1999. okay uh we're done that orange is inaccurate okay and so I figure if if it's an accurate any how do they put it and any of any and all information received in a world that's not correct is okay not well you know that I that I was talking to you about Robert Cheney's Oregon Trail card right yeah yeah okay and we talked about how a little bit already about how um he had given you permission you said to use the Oregon truck part three and a half months ago something so we're only before he disappeared right and he gave you the pin number which you had memorized yes the interrogator is trying to establish a timeline of Robert's movements before his disappearance this is always done as the timing of events is usually important evidence and it's also done to see if the suspect's timing matches the evidence and you had said that um you had sometimes put up like the you know the wanted posting up a thing you know a little help around here and there and so um after he moved to your property of course um you got to know them a little bit better when she talked about his drinking and that he every once in a while he would flip out because of his drinking most likely yes and but other than that your contact with him was animal kind of animals I mean I wouldn't see him for a week at a time yeah Michael bayles who worked for Susan and lived on her property for a few months came to speak with investigators soon after she was arrested and boy did he have a story to tell maybe if there was a reason for no reason if we did if we were going to do that he looks like sometimes every now and then it's been known to happen it's my middle name Michael said bills okay this is just the audio backup the investigators asked Michael how he first met Susan in order to establish some background on how well they knew each other I met her your friend Brady I don't even know his last name but Freddie is in a wheelchair up in Rogue River okay then he introduced me to her he gave me she gave me a job okay you know I went up there I was cutting wood for her and I had nowhere else to go so I guess be called me a vagrant or whatnot uh and she was pretty nice to me and then all of a sudden she turned not very nice were you living up there yeah how long did you live up there probably three months okay because Michael lived with Susan and saw her every day he can offer the investigators valuable insight into her daily habits as well as into her personality and he does not hold back when sharing his opinion of Susan she's a [ __ ] weirdo what makes you say that exactly she just gave me the EG peaches or just sometimes you can tell when somebody's a weirdo we're familiar with the property if you have the barn where you're living in the barn I live over in the biggest Barn it was a big big old you can't miss it we've been we've been through I lived in the in two of the rooms uh upstairs I that's my that was my room originally and then there was a TV that got put in downstairs so then I moved down there okay and was that where Richard lived God damn it is it uh maybe we should get a photo Robert that Robert that's him okay well we'll just confirm it with a photograph that's him all right so Robert lived down in the barn in the downstairs no Robert originally lived downstairs okay and then he got tired of her screaming at him so he moved his trailer's way right I saw that okay way over there okay and then he got tired of her screaming that about how long had he been there like about when he said hey you know here's my Oregon Trail card or my PIN number can you go grab me some beer and you know whatever else um a couple months he'd been there a couple months yeah I saw him I said I'm going into town you want anything he gave me the card gave me the pin number and I said get me some beer and coffee so you can't buy beer with Oregon Trail card so did you did you use your own money or how did that work yeah okay what we what would you normally ask him to buy you for reimbursement bread and milk that was it okay occasionally cheese okay um other than that I've got 500 pounds of pork in my freezers oh geez um yeah I'll keep you keep your bed for a long time huh for the record if anybody here would like to buy some pork I have pork eighty cents a pound I'm getting ready to get rid of another Pig the detective laughs and appears to be genuinely finding Susan's story funny however it's very likely that he's just trying to put her at ease so she opens up to him he wants her to think he's on her side and that she can trust him by laughing with her he's building Rapport where do you butcher your pigs up right there in the barn oh you know how to do it I I know how to kill them and I don't I don't necessarily butcher I just I'm kind of a butcher when it comes to butchering okay not good at it but you can do it yeah um how do you kill a pig oh what kind of gun do you have to use for that funny kid okay like a rifle okay you didn't see it no everybody was standing around nobody was searching I didn't understand the search thing when everybody was standing around well we stand around a lot sometimes uh yeah it was seven of you standing around and nobody was searching right now I think there's only one working maybe anyway I have a have a rifle there in my house okay I'm not a good shot I mean if I'm three feet from a pig you know you what you're supposed to do is make an X between their eyes and their ear and their eye and the ear and then you shoot them right there and that's it yeah so from three feet away with the target uh you know I see a turkey 50 feet away and I'd shoot it and go yeah you know and jump up in the air and run away and I'd shoot it again I want one turkey I had to shoot four times and it was halfway down my property before I actually killed the damn things the detective makes an effort to refocus the conversation after Susan goes off on a tangent relating to her method of shooting animals what did Robert think about your pigs um did he ever help feed him not did he ever go into their area not that I know of Susan exhales when asked if Robert ever went into the pig area size can be adapter signs of stress so this could indicate that she's anxious about this question in particular although some dismissed body language analysis as pseudoscience it is used by the FBI and CIA during interrogations when the CIA is interrogating an individual they look for clusters of three or more indicators that occur in either quick succession or all at once these indicators can be signs of discomfort or uncertainty in what the individual is stating rather than indicators of deception it's extremely important to note that you cannot detect deception through body language analysis alone what did he think of them I mean they're noisy at times and well kind of smelly sometimes and well he was well Susan is clasping her hands together on her lap and fidgeting which appears to be a release of tension and a stress relief it's not uncommon for people innocent or not to be nervous when talking with the police in these types of settings he was never around them I don't think it's except when he came up to use that little road it's a good conversation piece though I mean it's it would certainly be something I would talk about if I was going to move there when we when they talk I could say he was he was there and you know for the two of us have talked more today than I talked with him in whatever months he was there she hadn't been thinking you know well he hasn't returned for his dog and you know what's going on here I'm confused well I I was you know confused a little bit but like I say um even when I saw him it was spammatic and sometimes I wouldn't see him for a week looking back are there things you know come to mind that are suspicious to you or or kind of click in your memory going oh wow that was weird everything she said was obviously how about actions like what what does she do around the property if drove her back around knocked down trees fought with Robert constantly even when I saw him it was spamatic we didn't talk like daily oh every day if you had me go wake him up was she like feeling like she wasn't pulling his weight around the place or something or do you know you know I mean did she make comments about yeah yeah exactly what did she say there Robert sleep still noon and I mean he's not doing any any work besides Michael Bales Brady Murray one of Susan's neighbors and Friends also came to speak with investigators Brady had moved in with Susan three weeks before this interview took place because of family issues and over the past few years he's lived with Susan on and off what he shares with investigators is a stark and startling contrast to Michael's description of Susan what does she say about this this Robert guy like what kind of person was he no what she talked about him was was to me it was good didn't seem good he was a good worker she had no clones but it's working um he's alcoholic he was a Yeller they go down to the grant right and she hear him hollering down below and it was in butter it's easy so what were some of the things that she didn't like about him no no no I don't know nice sweet she kind of liked his work you know yeah but she don't talk you know really good enough somebody really good you see I don't know three four times the sheriff talked about it it was all good to me um he's an alcoholic he was a Yeller they go down to be grant them right and she can hear him hollering back in Susan's interview the interrogator continues discussing Susan's use of Robert's Oregon Trail card this card is the same food stamp card that Susan was using when she was initially flagged for fraud was that concerning to you that here he is he's gone he's left to his Oregon Trail card and you know I mean you only get one Oregon Trail card you know what I mean so and he doesn't have a job I I didn't know that I figured if he had gone to Ashland and I was working he had money to buy food that's okay and so what when did this working in Ashland thing come up well I don't know if it was actually working or Not Susan shifts her foot likely an anchor Point movement when asked about Robert working in Ashland when someone is sitting and moves their feet back or buttocks this is considered to be an anchor Point movement these types of behaviors can be a signal of deception because it's the body's way of releasing anxiety or tension and you had mentioned something before about Robert saying that his daughter had been raped yes he mentioned that several times mostly when you know he got really drunk so tell me about your relationship with Susan you said you've known her for eight or nine years yeah she's been my boss in the background that's enough I work for and I'm just casual relationship you know I'm not a girlfriend but yeah Brady finds it necessary to clarify that he and Susan have a casual relationship then he laughs nervously Brady also seems to be shifting around in this chair looking rather uncomfortable as he speaks his show shoulders are a bit elevated he seems to struggle when speaking the inflections in his voice change and he stutters a bit these are all indications of discomfort it seems that Brady is getting increasingly nervous shouldn't you guys she's uh little peculiar a little different acne she doesn't have a lot of effort but she's not she I've never seen her I've never seen her follow her deaths so somebody's missing who's who's missing what do you know about that I don't know the guy I never met a guy um his name is Robert I understand right that's all I know the information that Brady is providing to the detectives is now becoming even more suspicious it seems like he's really trying to emphasize that he knows nothing as well as distance himself from Robert and what happened to him what do you know well what students told me was not a lot Chad spoke a lot about it but but she didn't tell me that uh what she told me was took for me now was that that he was the guy that was working for I mean it was true I've seen your camera down here down here anyways and he had told her I guess she was growing real bad drunk that his daughter her sister somebody got his name he was gonna go take care of it okay she said he's missing so okay you can't talk a lot about it with me when talking about the story Susan told him if you look at Brady's hands they're ahead of his words this kind of mismatch indicates the brain in fight or flight mode there's something about discussing this that's causing Brady anxiety he left all of his possessions behind then you know of yeah and that was strange to you well like I said you know he he had left with somebody so I was under the impression that he was doing something and actually he he told me he told his uh he had mentioned to me one person in Ashland um where I might actually go with him to doing that generic job so what do you think happened to Robert what's what's Your Gut Feeling on it everybody has their own opinions about things but what do you think the the only she moves both of her feet when asked what happened to Robert likely Anchor Point movements indicating anxiety and possibly deception however it's important to not rely on one indicator as proof that someone is being dishonest because a single Behavior could be explained away when Bobby had told me that his sister uh usually about a call a couple times a week that was when I first kind of thought in the back of my head somewhere that if he indeed went to take care of a business you know with the thing that he might have gotten the short end of the stick and that was like I said just the back of my head I had no idea I couldn't like I said I couldn't understand after all this time if you don't hear from your father for a month and prior to that month you've heard from him twice a week why did somebody do something earlier and then when they came out last week they said they thought he was dead that's what I'm saying you know why do you think you know I didn't say out loud but I'm thinking to myself well if you think your father is dead uh you know why didn't you do something about this months ago Susan has shown a pattern of superiority seemingly thinking that she could handle situations better than other people earlier she pointed out how the police department's search fell short as she felt they were all just standing around now she's blaming Robert's family for not looking for him earlier why didn't you call I had no reason to call him but he lives on your property for a long time and he never came back uh Susan hesitates and then sighs heavily likely another adapter Behavior to reduce her stress she typically responds to questions rather quickly by either providing a lengthy and highly detailed response or saying that she doesn't remember here Susan shows signs of possible discomfort with the question given her hesitation and deep sigh which is a deviation from her typical Behavior I I don't know you know I I didn't think it was my responsibility to call what if uh let's reverse things what if Robert was the one sitting here right now and you were missing would you have expected him to call well yeah he's living on your property yes why because he's you know because I got up every morning and fed my animals and every evening I fed my animals and what's the difference between you and him because I never um um I mean he's a person too who has a life too it may not be as involved as yours but he still has his daily routine well that's no he didn't if he did have a daily routine well he certainly had to eat he said that he ate food up at the the barn yeah but I I won't necessarily see him uh I didn't see him for a week at a time okay and uh but you would expect that he would report you missing after three months well probably after a few days because my face would be making all kinds of noise you know Susan I found a leg by your house appears to be an ankle foot knee joint a leg a human leg next to your place when someone repeats a question this can sometimes indicate deception because the person is trying to buy themselves some time to think she doesn't appear to be surprised or shocked about this news however it's possible that limited facial expressions are typical for her or that she's good at hiding her emotions Susan has gone very very still here this is called the freeze response it is part of the body's autonomic nervous system fight flight or freeze stress response this type of freezing is often a reaction when someone perceives a threat though they aren't moving the person experiencing a freeze response is often extremely alert I think it might be Robert oh no who could it be no I didn't you think he might be Robert um I just I guess I should ask where where it was if it was down there by his trailer no it was right next to your place um just a few feet from your place I don't know them if it were if it were down by the his trailer he might have fallen down the hill or something but if it was up at my place I don't know that's it do you think it's kind of strange that there's a lake right next to your place uh fairy does it concern you um yes you think it might be Robert um it it could be but I can't understand why um if if we're I can't understand how it I can't understand how it would get there because I can't see him having an accident up by my place how do you think it got there um what's your best reasoning for how it got there other I have no idea what do you think we should do at this point I mean are you worried about Robert do you think it might be him um I would definitely get a um DNA test find out if it were okay do you think if we search the 19.99 Acres that we're going to find any other parts of people if it's if it's if it's Robert's lake I guess the rest of them is there somewhere so you think a coyote drug it right next to your house um that would be the only thing that would make any sense to me what do you think happened to Robert what did he do I have no idea did he do something to you no you know you described your property as this what I envisioned when you were describing it a really peaceful place yes and um and you seem like kind of a quiet person who would enjoy being out away from people and not you know around where things are loud and you said to yourself you don't even have the radio on in the car and you're smart you do well with your money the detective compliments Susan in an attempt to gain her trust he knows that Susan thinks she's very smart and by using flattery here he hopes to distract and disarm her a bit and it seems to work you like your animals you like your privacy in the quiet out there that's why you pick the place yes because it's out in the middle of nowhere really it's beautiful out there I think it's beautiful so you have this peaceful tranquil place and you try to help somebody out because it sounds like you are a person who likes to help people out yeah you're trying to support four people right now wow you're trying to take care of them you're trying to well must be good with using their money and helping them out to be smarter and not just drink a 12-pack and get wasted so you seem like a legitimately good person who's trying to do the right thing and then Along Comes Robert and you try to help him out but for some reason with Robert you know he has these episodes this is strategic because the questions about Robert likely sound to Susan that the detective believes she is responsible for his death saying that she's a legitimately good person is part of the detective's theme development he's trying to make her believe that he thinks she wouldn't kill someone for no reason to get her to confess he wants her to latch on to this line of thinking she's a good person who made a mistake and had a reason to do what she did this will likely be much easier for her to admit to especially when the alternative is that she's a cold-blooded murderer who had the intent to kill Robert the detective also mentions Robert's episodes as a way of giving Susan an out to explain that she killed Robert because he was being aggressive with her well I mean Brady has episodes okay well let's focus on Robert though Robert had his had some issues everyone knows that it's actually documented in police reports okay it's unclear exactly what the interrogator is referring to by documented in police reports however this could be referenced to an incident where Susan's neighbors called the police because they heard Robert making a lot of noise he was allegedly drunk at the time what exactly transpired before the police were called and when they arrived on the scene is unknown he was a guy you could get loud and drunk and cause problems and pretty much ruin that peaceful tranquil place that you have out there the detective is explaining that Susan is a good person who like to help people but perhaps Robert got loud and drunk and disrupted the tranquility and Solitude she likes to have he's attempting to give her another excuse for harming him in a scenario that somewhat understandable to her he hopes Susan will run with this Theory and confess to her true involvement no and I'm guessing that that's what he did at times well he did that at times but he was the only time that I was Disturbed by him was when he was making a whole bunch of noise and he went and talked to him right yeah yeah what'd you guys talk about I mean you must have certainly what I would have done to say hey you're living here on my property it's exactly what I said you're living here on my property yeah you don't need problems with the neighbors keep it down or get not leave get out of here well I what'd you tell him pretty much the same thing but I didn't say he had to go I just said be quiet because they would have didn't stop with that well that was the only time that I really heard him all right well we have her we know of other times oh well I don't the detective is trying to plant a seed of doubt in Susan's head by making her think they know about other instances leaving her feeling unsure about anything else they might know in Brady's interview he goes on to say something completely unexpected that shocks the interrogators okay I really can't imagine uh for doing it I can't do it well I don't understand Brady appears to possibly be intoxicated and is rather incoherent at times he describes the situation and investigation as a murder something which he isn't supposed to know the detectives jump on him immediately about his use of this term as they never mentioned murder to him and want him to elaborate on this possible slip up he said murderer kill somebody or somebody missing there I couldn't imagine her doing it so tell me about Robert uh how he was a cool guy cool guy how long were you around him couple months a couple months yeah I only knew him for a couple whereas a matter of fact I owe them 10 bucks okay and so something I'm never going to be able to but he always told me he always told me every day I hope my kids can get my stuff because I think she's gonna kill me he told you that yes wow okay so tell me about that when uh what what made him say that tell me about his relationship with Susan see I don't know that they didn't get along but it didn't no and she said she had no idea what's happened to him you know he's gone that not a lot but she didn't talk a lot about it when did she first start talking about she didn't know where is that before you moved in when she started talking about Hades not around anymore or is that after he moved in while talking about Robert Brady's body language is closed off take a look at his feet having his ankles tucked up under his chair is not a comfortable seated position and indicates his significant discomfort notice throughout his interview whether his legs are out in front of him or tucked away under his chair with his ankles tightly locked this is another indicator of anxiety and is a guarded stance uh actually kind of after I when I'm moving your neck I moved in when she we really come out I realized that wow this is you know this is big it's like listen you know and I can just keep getting big uh not about that long about that time and why did you think it was getting big because I mean did she think that maybe he just left I mean what was she talking about um he leans back rubbing his head with his hand all of which are signs of uneasiness Chef you were saying that that she uh that she talks about Peter and pigs to people just made that she has over here but it's a joke it's a joke I'm sure it's a joke so well tell us about it you know Brady insists this is just a joke several times in this short span of time it's a joke I'm sure it's a joke people sometimes repeat things over and over to try to convince others of the truth of the statement so it's also about what you know about that stuff you guys I really really seriously doubt I know pretty good over the years you guys that that's that that Susan could do anything like that saying really really seriously could be considered a qualifier which is often stated when a person isn't being truthful or is withholding information Robert says this as he's moving his head back and forth seeming uncomfortable and fidgety typically when a person is being honest there are no unusual or jerky movements the body moves smoothly as in Michael's interview where there's no evidence of unusual mannerisms or movements and you know I'm I'm we're not sitting here saying that she did or didn't you don't know where did we talked to you and we're gonna hear your side so I mean there's some so there was there's some statements that you're saying that she feeds people to the Pig I mean like what is she what she mentioned before joking around okay and tell me about that conversation you're having with her when she's saying no Japanese filmed and she's she's ironic the kids say you know she's talking to dumb feeding pigs to people but now somebody's missing here you know was it was a joke okay really a joke so you didn't actually ever say that no Stephanie told you that she said that yeah and when was that conversation you had with Stephanie then no one week ago yeah I think I've heard her mentioned that over the years I think soon as I mentioned a better life a few times that she had things forever you know okay so I'm not sure it seems that Brady is trying to reveal bits and pieces about Susan's more negative or concerning qualities but at the same time he's trying to protect her Brady may be doing this in order to protect himself because he might be unsure of how much the detectives know it's possible that Brady doesn't want to completely claim that Susan is innocent he wants to reveal some concerns or suspicions about her to cover himself in the event that the detectives discover that she did in fact murder Robert Michael on the other hand isn't trying to hide his suspicions about the type of person Susan is which is why he presents so much calmer than Brady during his questioning do you think Robert got into the pig pen and they attacked him Susan size likely to release her nervous energy well if you found them if you found the lady in the pig pen um I would say that's possible would your pigs eat a person um a kid's an animal they don't know any better yeah no um I've heard of pigs eating people all the time so like I say I've joked about it and then I have a weird sense of humor um if there's a deviation in her behavior here Susan's speech isn't as fluent as it typically is oftentimes deviations in a person's usual behaviors and manner of speech during an interrogation is a possible indication of lying she sounds unsure and hesitant as if she's watching her words and being cautious when I told you that there was a leg fireplace yeah your expression didn't change it doesn't seem like it's that big of a deal uh it yeah it is well certainly if I found a leg by my house I'd be freaked out well I'm not freaked out but I'm you know very surprised it's just well the leg goes to a person no I don't even know obviously dead I don't even know that you're telling the truth Susan is kind of turning the tables here because the detective has been doubting her truthfulness so now she's doubting his she appears to be educated about the fact that police sometimes lie during interrogations and she might enjoy pointing this out to the detective as she may think this knowledge is further proof of how smart she is I am telling the truth well I don't know that you just might be making up stories to get me to say something else yeah well I'm not lying to you I am telling you the truth well like I said I don't know that I'm just looking for Robert and I'm worried that that leg well this morning you were looking for a uh Oregon Trail car so I don't know it seems like Susan feels like she beat the detective in this round at least because she turns her body towards him in a more confident manner as she's likely feeling more self-assured she mentions that finding the leg is immaterial evidence anyways the detective then cuts the conversation as he likely doesn't want any tension to build nor for Susan to build up confidence sure enough when he returns he makes small talk about Susan's sandwich to defuse the tension well you said a couple not one [Music] later after the two detectives regroup outside the interrogation room the second detective begins a new tactic with Susan in the hopes that this will get her to admit to something so Susan I don't think I I introduced myself very well I'm Eric Fox one of the things that I do is I'm a medical examiner Deputy medical examiner so so that's one of the reasons why I'm here is because I helped to determine cause and manner of death yes so obviously there's a human leg there okay it's it's possibly yes well let's stop Stella it's human I can guarantee you that okay okay and it's somewhat decomposed I mean it's been been around for a while okay so obviously it came from a person all right the only it says like I said she's using what's known as a referral statement this is often done to help build credibility the more someone says something the more believable it becomes because each repetition lessens our disbelief the only logical explanation I would have is if it were software other than in the pig pen right that a coyote might of a animal or whatever well I don't know any other animal I've been I've been watching uh detective Henderson talked to you and I kind of got an impression of kind of the type of person you are that you're kind of a very logical person um you like to you can memorize numbers uh you you see things kind of linear in facts the medical examiner is trying to build rapport with Susan and appeal to her high sense of her own intelligence he also tries to normalize her lack of reaction to the news of the leg by saying she's very logical and linear in her thinking versus her being a sociopath or guilty of killing someone and feeling no emotion about it this is an attempt to get her to open up to him you know you get into Star Trek at all yeah I remember Star Trek I'm 95 and there you go and five percent Klingon so it's right right on right by comparing herself to fictional Star Trek characters such as the Klingon it shows that Susan identifies with violent creatures that have a strong sense of ritual and must do things their own way so uh um yeah so so logic yes I'm very logical so you can see what's see what's next in line here probably well that's yeah I think you can anticipate what's what's happening like you said human Lake yeah the only logical explanation would be you know that okay to go in the other direction if I had killed him why would I leave them out by my house right well that's always kill somewhere else leave somewhere bury somewhere and then an animal moves from that location I mean that's uh that's always possible too right um yeah say had you killed him yeah so that's possible yeah Susan begins to appear more uneasy and anxious when discussing the possibility of her killing Robert perhaps just mentioning killing him created a fear response in hers you can hear her breathing become more labored as well she's fidgeting with her hands and her voice is shaky these are all adapters to try to calm oneself down in a tense situation so but yeah so so no matter what something had separated this leg from the from the main portion of the body and it moved it towards your house hi his interview Michael sheds a bit more light on the state of his relationship with Susan and how it deteriorated I was because I had gotten upset because she started screaming too much at me I'm not you know I've been married I'm sure you guys are married I don't deal with that very well I said go [ __ ] yourself and I moved out and then I went and talked to him that same day the last last words I spoke to him was I'm out of here bro I love you I shake his hand and he said dude I envy you I wish I could move out of here she's gonna kill me yeah well apparently she did the other thing that I I was kind of interested in Susan is here's a person that came to your house and is now clearly missing and you haven't seen him for a while yes are there other people that have came to your house and unexpectedly left their property um now it left that place I mean when Susan has asked if other people have gone missing from her property she makes a couple Anchor Point movements such as shifting both feet she also brings her hands in closer together which could be a sign of anxiety at this question remember this part because this question about other people disappearing on her property becomes sickeningly important later we gotta narrow in the identification so you know obviously we've got to take this and get DNA and make a comparison so I'm making sure there's nobody else that we might have to try to make a comparison I don't want to just assume that this is Mr Haney right yes now um the last person to stay at my property was over a year ago and his name was Paul he's a um Oriental guy so pollen had been at your place what happened to pawn um he um went somewhere I heard from him two or three months ago and he was thinking about moving back to my place so you know Pawn still exists and he hasn't he's not disappeared he's not deceased on your property so well you have to find the milkshake well um yeah oh gosh I my stupid sense of humor right um what have they told you about this missing person they don't know much about it they just get the EBT but please freaked them out me that much the detective confronts Brady and he ends his response with an awkward laugh and continues with the jerky body movements demonstrating his discomfort Brady's inopportune laugh could be his way of self-soothing or making light of a situation where he feels uncomfortable or nervous a lot of things I don't they they're a little more hilarious because I don't know what you like right yeah haven't you guys do that's all green and she worked for the city you can work for people you know she's a good body she's a good person she's peculiar you know and that's what you know people didn't understand a lot of people are I can see you're doing a house well I can't see her doing that I really can't see her doing that so why do you say that though yeah then why say that why I say that no I don't think students could do that I mean that but I think that that the number she told me I don't know if you guys have looked at her I'm sure you have but if she's happy about him telling her that someone who is his daughter he was crazy drunk about it and screaming and all were in several nights I'll kill him I'll kill him no that's what she told me and he was crazy about it it's his daughter so he's screaming now I mean does she ever say anything about them having domestics or fights or anything but no I still laughing pretty good I think I think she said he's a good worker you know right when we started you mentioned about well I don't think she did it I don't think she would murder someone or kill someone I don't know the exact words you used I guess the question we're asking what makes you think we even think that where did this come from yeah why wouldn't you think Sue may have done it they haven't saved it that's that's uh well he's missing right he's missed himself is under property notice Brady's word choice here he said it was on her property and yet at this point he hasn't been informed about the gruesome Discovery found on Susan's land I've done lots of missing people cases where um people call it and they say hey so let's live here but they left what do you guys have showed up there you've been there you know and and she said she told me you guys are are looking into it okay there you go so when did he show you that um I don't know a week ago or something that's about property and so she kind of give me that same impression you know but she didn't seem real concerned about her now what does she think happened to this guy she hasn't you know she hasn't really I hadn't really asked her a lot about it but she hasn't offered she hadn't offered much information on that what do you believe our next step in this investigation is going to be um well I would say go look in a big pen and see if you find any more parts and especially clothing where else would we look do you think uh do you think we would look at other places too my neighbors are uh Karen and Florida are over here so when he went crazy they heard him and they hear everything and then complaining to you guys and to the county and everybody else and that's why I lost my hair a couple years ago Susan has been deflecting with generic statements prior to this but this comment is way off topic and may be meant to elicit sympathy from the detectives because the county come out and uh said I needed to clean up my place or I was going to get fined 600 but I had no idea where I was going to get six hundred dollars so for two nights I didn't sleep and then immediately after that I started Susan pushes on her forehead with her hand which is known as facial Distortion this Behavior often happens when someone is feeling especially anxious or upset Susan's land is very important to her and the thought of losing it was likely very stressful for her somewhat of a loner and now uh I'm very much more of a loner I don't go anywhere so short ly after this happened uh I have not been able to look in a mirror for the last two years I have not looked in a mirror I take a cloth I wipe my face I've not been able to take a bath it's been two years we can't say for certain if this is true but the information Susan is providing here could indicate that she might have begun to mentally and emotionally decompensate two years ago when she began losing her hair abandoning hygiene is an indication of severe mental and emotional problems and then today I go ahead and you people won't let me go down and relieve myself so I'm walking around for an hour and a half and my pants Susan refers to the officers as you people showing her disdain for them and it's a sign of disrespect notice that both officers are sitting leaning forward towards her with their elbows on their knees they're trying to get Susan to mirror this position which is often seen when someone breaks down and confesses this position is a sign of resignation foreign [Applause] what do you think the chances are we're going to find the rest of Robert when Susan finishes her story about her hair the officers have no response to her whatsoever and just dive right back into the facts of the case and questioning her it's a little surprising that they offer no empathy towards her after her long-winded story about how badly she feels about herself by not acknowledging her feelings the detective may have damaged the Rapport that he had built with Susan so far the only place that I would be able to say would be if it were in The Knowing between where his stuff is and the trailer he might have fallen down but you guys have been down there I was down there I never saw anything Susan have you ever fed your pigs any other animals before no a couple of weeks ago I went and made a some stew when I had to put the bones in the in the liquid too add flavor to it before I make them what do the pigs do when they eat the bones crunch them all out most most of the most I I know there's a big skull out in the back panel of one of the pigs pigs go yes so they didn't eat up the skull then no so if uh if a human ended up in there then it's not likely they'd eat up the human skull then either would they well pit stones a lot bigger which is the back of the start here uh Susan Our intention is to go and find the rest of this person yes um and we're going to search yes until we do find the rest of this person and then we're going to compare you know we're going to make sure that the parts that we find do belong to the same person and then we're going to get DNA and we're going to compare and make sure either it's Robert or if it's somebody else well I mean if we need to know if you have any knowledge of anything that happened to him that now would probably be the time to tell us when there's a delay in responding this can sometimes indicate deception a pause is appropriate when a question requires thought however other questions like whether Susan knows what happened to Robert should be easy to answer if she didn't have anything to do with it sometimes Susan things happen that we have no control over or we didn't know is going to happen or for various reasons and we hide things out of fear or embarrassment the detectives start using the read technique offering alternate explanations for why she did what she did and offering a less morally despicable explanation by saying things like things just happen and people make mistakes this is to get her to latch onto one of these explanations and confess to some involvement they're doing this now because they can see Susan is feeling defeated and has lost some resolve and sticking with our lies if my pitch did eat Robert would you kill my pigs well I don't know that's something we'd have to look at this is an odd question and possibly Susan's way of deflecting the suspicion away from herself however it's possible that this is another example of Susan's black and white thinking in her mind killing the pigs would be wrong because it's not their fault that they ate something in their pen the pigs don't have morals that would keep them from eating a person so she doesn't think it would be fair for her pigs to die for doing something that they can't control Yeah you mentioned an incident to us where Susan held you into the pig area tell me about that I think I thought she was just joking but she she's a big woman don't get me wrong she's bigger than you are she just lifted me up and held me over the pig farm because I was looking at her pegs and she knows I'm scared of him I'm I'm scared of him I'm right I would never get in there but anyway I was looking at her and she held me over and laughed hey so then she told me I would like to see how fast my picks could get rid of a human body are those pigs friendly huh are those pigs friendly out there no no Progressive aggressive yeah okay was she mad at you at the time or that you seemed like something just kind of I thought it was funny okay you know I thought she was kidding okay so you guys were involved in an argument according to Michael she laughed as she said these words if this is true this could be an indication that Susan may have some sadistic traits as she might derive enjoyment from inflicting harm on others or at the very least from bullying or threatening others oftentimes people with antisocial personality disorder have sadistic Tendencies we can't draw any conclusions about Susan's diagnosis but with this information being revealed by Michael there's a possibility that Susan may have derived pleasure from thinking about and acting on feeding a human being to her pigs large Pig there he says and why don't you just tell us what happened note that Susan uses her drink to stall as she speaks and then begins to sigh heavily she first raises her hand to cover her eyes when she's asked to tell the detectives what happened and does it again now when detectives see all of these things together especially the eye blocking it can be a sign of deception as the deceptive person doesn't want to face the reaction from the other person everything that I told you was the truth up until about a week after Bobby had called me I don't know when but sometime about a week after Bobby had called I went down he was like half eaten now he was like what by the pigs okay I don't he was like half eaten by the pigs it was early in the morning and uh I saw what had happened his guts were all over the place he was he was still alive I I knew he wasn't going to be alive for more than you know a few more minutes here she is covering her mouth with her hand as she says this which could be another clue of deception people who were lying sometimes hide their mouth attempting to cover the LIE I went back up to my house and I got a gun and shot him in the head if it was true that Susan found her pigs eating Robert most people would have immediately either gone to try to help him and or called 9-1-1 when Susan says this her mouth is covered by her hand almost blocking the words coming out of her mouth it's possible that Susan's trying to hide her emotions by covering her mouth because maybe the sadness she's trying to express is feigned I didn't want my face to be shot forgot for not doing something that's a natural causes now kids get hungry you know if if he was out there I don't know what happened to start with if he went out and started doing something to them I can't see that my kids would go ahead and do something to somebody without cause there's a deviation in her behavior here because she's much louder and there's more emotion in her voice compared to just moments ago when she was describing how she supposedly found Robert half eaten and shot him it's possible that this change in tone of voice is an indication of tension it's a change in Pitch is often a sign of emotional stress it's also safe to say that Susan simply feels more strongly about her Pig's well-being than she does about Roberts that have always been very friendly with me they still are very friendly with me uh I didn't want to say anything and because I was afraid you were gonna go out and shoot my picks that's not gonna happen right now okay we're gonna look into that but tell me back at the beginning how did you know Robert was there did you hear noise what happened I came down in the morning I decided this was this was maybe it was it was over a month since I have seen him last because it was about that time when Bobby had called me to ask me what was going on and I told him I have no idea and so he had been gone he had been gone over a month he had been gone over a month I came down to feed my animals and I heard this moaning and and stuff to hear screaming not not really a scream just moaning Moaning More yeah and his Ducks were out and but he was he was still oh I again she covers her mouth as she says he was still alive possibly signifying that she's not telling the truth about this touching one's face is also a self-soothing technique he was alive I could I could I could see his art moving and he was he still moaning yeah it was moaning a little bit and I said so what'd you do then I yelled at the pigs and uh they were doing their thing they're just you know having lunch or at breakfast they were having breakfast on him and um I could see that you know there was no way he was going to get to the hospital and live uh I don't think it was going to live more than a few more minutes here no no he didn't say yeah he was just moaning so but he went back into your house I went up and got my rifle and I saw him in the head how many times I don't know more than once I don't know the not remembering is very unusual when someone has a selective memory this can sometimes be a deceptive indicator however it's difficult to prove that someone is lying when they say they don't remember it seems as though Susan doesn't want to admit how many times she shot Robert if she admits that she shot him multiple times she may be concerned that will make her look more guilty I have no idea So you you're sure you did it once yes but you're not sure if you did it more but I don't know if I did it more times I don't so after you shot him then what happened after I shot him did he die immediately yes and then what'd you do I went and I I went and fed my other animals and I just left him there so as far as you know he was never moved from that oh what reason do you think that I have no I have no idea why he would go in the pig pen I am not at all Susan begins answering the detective's question before he even finishes asking it which is something to take note of when suspects take either too long to answer a simple question or interrupt to answer a question it could be because they're not being honest answering too quickly shows an over eagerness to tell their side and defend themselves while a long pause shows the person is carefully considering the answer they want to give or concocting a lie on the spot were you angry at him when he came back I didn't see him come back I was angry at him and angry at my angry at him and my kids for what happened the main area that you're talking about is that going to be right by south of the farm south of the bar pretty close to the barn how close do you think it was to the barn where where his body was ah 40 feet and so what happened you know after you fed the rest of your animals and then oh check to see obviously the pigs are going to do what they're gonna do you can't stop them right so if they're gonna come back to them if you originally maybe you were trying to show them off but obviously leaving them there they're going to eat him right yes Susan covers her face displaying that she either is ashamed of what she did or feels overly stressed hiding her face psychologically removes her a little from the situation and the direct glare of the interrogator so um did you check back to see a couple days later well no I mean every every day and uh the interior move any part of him out of the pen I mean there's got to be some parts that aren't eating like you said they don't eat clothes right ah a few days later when most of him was gone so I went in there and I picked up the clothes I picked up the few parts that were left and what was left that was that uh skull and um wow an arm and I'm not sure I know there was the skull if you if you go back out to my barn and when you go let me draw you a little picture what's left of him is in a couple of plastic bags right there okay Susan appears to be at least somewhat bothered by picking up Robert's Remains the fact that she left his body there for two days could suggest that she wanted the pigs to destroy the evidence I shot him in the head I no I I did not look to see where I could see what he gave I just took the rifle on and stopped was he laying on his back his side uh on his back so most likely anything would have been like I I don't know I didn't look I didn't look I saw it I saw it that he is that's they got his back foreign I went up to the house so I got my rifle I just went like this I just turned my head and I stopped and then I didn't see any more boat I did did see his arm move or any more boating on left I think uh did you ever think it's possible that maybe if you got an ambulance there they might be able to do something no no no no I didn't I had I didn't think it was gone there was no way I mean I am let's take half an hour to get to him there was there was no way he was gonna live for another couple of minutes and I did pretty much the way I do everything yes I did not like to see an animal suffer I did not like to see him suffering Robert to one of her pigs suggests that she has difficulty understanding social norms as it's not socially appropriate to compare ending a human's life to ending a pig's life the the bag that has the skull and the other few remaining parts in it did you ever try to um destroy those that already just put them in no I couldn't think about anything the burn Barrel's right there okay and the clothes are still in there they're burnt up is there anything else that you might have put in there that burned up and maybe a wallet might have been in there you don't know I don't know I didn't go through with stuff or the ashes still in there or did you yes no the uh no I haven't I haven't ducted the burn barrels it's just it's half full of Ashes were you worried using his card though after you knew that he was dead that you would get caught no I didn't really think about it Susan I'm I'm I'm a little concerned on this and I appreciate you being honest about what you've told us if there's there's a piece here missing it seems to me that there's a person that never goes into that pig pen I don't know I I don't know and then he ends up in their mysterious I I I don't know if he ever I could say I did he come after you and threaten you and something happened no no he never came after me or threatened me something to you no he never he never did anything to me uh and um the only thing he ever did to me was make a big mess and I'm not shooting somebody because I made a mess because you you got to see through my eyes and this story seems convenient I have I have no other than I have I have no idea I have no idea how he got in there or why he would go in there I don't know did you ever hear her make threats for Robert like I'd like to kill that guy or I'm gonna do this with him or that yeah I heard her say I will shut him up all right and I don't know if that's a threat but she shut him up I guess so he never he never threatened you never came up in the drunken rage come back to your house mad about somebody stealing his stuff or doing anything about it no the detective is presenting Susan with possible justifications for her killing him to defend yourself you know that if something something happened now now if he had come up to my house and threatened me and I had shot him I would have called you immediately I would have called you immediately are you frightened of the pigs no I'm not frightened at all I've never been frightened of them I I had a 940 pound fit and he would kill me in a minute if he wanted to but he was very gentle when when he was about 400 pounds or something I walked by him and I was scratching the back of his neck and he hit me with his head and put a cut in my leg right here that's the only time any of my animals have ever hurt me and all and he was he would not be made he would not be made at all to me he just twist his head and he weighed three fives or twice but identity just put a little cut in my leg and locked me down our kids do not need although covering one's mouth can be an indicator of deception it's possible that this is not the case for Susan this may be a typical behavior for her when she's feeling emotional it's possible that she wants to appear strong and she may feel that showing emotion is weak by covering her mouth when she's upset she may be trying to create a barrier between her and the detectives as a way to hide her feelings from them the fact that she's covering her mouth while she tells the story about her Pig hurting her lends support to the theory that this is her attempt to hide her emotions rather than to cover a lie as it wouldn't make sense for her to be dishonest about getting cut by her Pig this is why it's important to not make any judgments about whether someone is being dishonest simply based off of one deceptive indicator you need to look at the whole picture not just one small piece of the puzzle and I do not know why did I do not know why he was out there I do not know if he had been out there previous to that time and I have no idea what happened to make them do that to you Susan would you be willing to take a lie detector test yes Susan immediately agrees to take a polygraph exam she may believe she can pass it as she clearly believes she's smarter than the officers no problems at all no problem and obviously the issue would be him after the pigs attacked him or did you shoot him first and then I shot him after the pig he was he was laying on the ground with his guts out okay I'm just asking if you'd be willing to test he was like yes okay interestingly Brady reports that Susan has a hard time killing the pigs contrary to her statement earlier when she made jokes about butchering them so you've mentioned that you've heard her say kidding around and feed people to the pigs and all that stuff if she ever talked about doing that no it's possible that Susan uses humor as a coping mechanism when she's feeling uncomfortable or stressed making lied about something she actually finds emotionally difficult maybe her way of proving to other people that she isn't weak like detective Fox is talking about it does really sound like it's more of a story of convenience of something that you know it's it's explainable but it doesn't really make that much sense we understand that you are saying that you shot him okay I I I still don't know if you actually found a plague or anything but if you did something if you found a lake so you'll get a photo of it yeah as far as like the skeletal structure of a person when uh that looks like a leg it is okay um if it if it's if it's in the grass then it had I don't know in in the um Susan appears distressed about seeing the photo of the leg flipping it over was her way of reducing her stress out of sight out of mind this avoidance behavior is similar to her story about how she didn't go check the pig pen for a couple days after Robert was killed instead of coping with something difficult someone with anxiety may choose to avoid certain things or situations uh I could not look at him and one arm was moving a little bit and you also just mentioned that you didn't like it when you if you had a pig out here in the barn you wouldn't be able to shoot them humanely yes right so it's important to have a good shot on a pig so that it doesn't suffer yes but Robert I mean it's a human being laying in there aren't standing there saying that you didn't look from what you're saying but did you at least place the end of the muzzle close to somewhere where you thought I was probably a maybe a foot and a half from his hand the end of the barrel yes okay and was there a reason for that well I couldn't look at him and take Aim or anything he was he was laying there I was standing here and I went like that and I pulled the trigger but you made sure that the barrel was pointed at his head yes is it possible that we might find someone else out there or remains from another person on your property somewhere is that possible Anything is Possible I don't know how you found that leg where your whole from where it was okay but if that leg's not Robert's I I if it's not I don't know who it would be if you're you're not very and I don't know if detective foxes is getting the same thing from you but you're not when you it seems like like before where you kind of wanted to say something but you didn't you held out and then you and it's like you want to say it then this is like detective fox said this is this is your opportunity to do that who else is out there instead of asking again if anyone else is out there which is a close-ended question that could be answered with a simple yes or no the detective switches tactics and ask directly who else is out there this is known as a presumptive question because the asker is assuming that something is true in this case that there is another body this question may catch Susan off guard if she was being honest when she initially denied that any other bodies are there she likely wouldn't have to think about her response it would be something easy like no one else is out there however if she knows that there is another body she may pause to think about her response it's my knowledge no one and if if that if that leg is not Robert's I would very much like to know it myself her reply is especially suspicious as most people would be able to definitely answer whether or not a dead body was on their property even if it is a large area using this qualifying statement such as to my knowledge is a major red flag of course you know I'd very much like to know it myself if it's not his and how it got from the pig pen to wherever over there the grass you found it I have no idea right sometimes bad things happen to good people you know Misfortune I mean who would have thought that Robert would have ended up in the pigs right yes so did something else bad happen to you the only the only thing and I will admit I have thought about it quite a bit maybe too much is that camera I mean I have thought about killing her a hundred times okay well we're not talking about here right yes I understand that we're not talking about Karen okay well I'm glad that's right that's the only and you're pretty sensitive about your hair falling out yeah yes I lost my hair within two months I mean that's that's devastating especially for for you isn't it yes it's it's very hard for me to sit here right now yes and even talk about it yes I mean just wearing this like I say I never leave my property and I would not have today without putting my wig on your story about shooting Robert I know that's true that you shot him when you were when he was in the pig yes and I know that's true but where else did you shoot them people don't always die from the first shot on a 22 where else was he shot at I have no idea was he standing up on the first shot no no he just he was laying down on the ground well you know we have the skull right yes I'm gonna take a look at that skull yes and you know how forensics are I'm sure you watch that kind of stuff do you understand one of the things I caught on the and we can we can take a look at the uh what do you call it right now we can took a take a look at those angles you know how you put the rods in the legs you can figure that all out and we can tell say all all those shots came from the same area yes and we can also tell if it happened somewhere else yes if we're shooting at the head yes is there's some other way that something we're going to see that doesn't make any sense like I said I might have shot him six times I really don't know but are we gonna have an an angle that doesn't match your story I have no idea I have no idea he was on the ground right I know I know that's true I can sense that I can tell them but I can also sense that there's something missing there's some heart that something happened between you two before that happened now something happened did no do you feel responsible did you ask him to go out and feed the pigs so now you're you're feeling guilty about that no I did not did you request I have to clean up something else now you feel guilty no I I feel guilty in the fact that he was lying there and I shot him I feel guilty for you know the fact that my pigs ended up eating most of him I do not feel guilty for um for uh um I do not feel guilty for causing his death well right okay although your gunshots are what ended it completely yes I mean he would we we were we were not standing here together right and I did not shoot him in the head did you ever appointed a rifle at anybody no before a person no um while I was in the Navy uh if I saw something suspicious I would throw a hand grenade at it or or Simpson even thought about shooting anymore so you value human life right it sounds like you do it sounds like you have a no understanding no no I don't okay no I I should not be saying it but I'm trying to tell the truth I do not value human life very much the only thing wrong with this planet is there's people on it if it weren't for us all the other animals you know dodo birds and whatever else would still be here okay well how did you feel about Robert um what kind of person was he well I try to repeat here I don't know him what about uh what did you see with Robert and his deal they did not like each other okay they have you saw them having words yes and what was that about what YouTube wanted all her work done for free and we didn't he wasn't agreeing to that I used to go talk to him every day he was my buddy just like Brady appears to feel loyal towards Susan Michael appears to feel loyal toward Robert this could explain why Brady and Michael give such different accounts not only about Susan but about how Susan felt about Robert this doesn't necessarily mean that they're lying to detectives however it may be easier for them to remember things that fit with what they believe is true this is known in psychology as confirmation bias when something happens that fits with what we already believe we're more likely to see it as important and therefore remember it if something happens that doesn't align with our beliefs we may discount it I'm trying to wrap my my mind around it you know what I mean of why how long this is a fire would end up and and the pig started attacking me I guarantee to get out I want to say I my pigs are not mean right I have no I have no idea why he would be there and furthermore I have no idea why they would go after him or for anybody you know you mind if I just grab you some more water you want some water um because all three of you go outside for just five seconds okay yes there's a flat rate okay just just just just five seconds sure sure um no okay just five seconds please okay Susan is extremely self-conscious about her bald head which is why she asked for everyone to leave the room while she took off her sweatshirt and adjusted her hat well I'll talk to you about the polygraph stuff I'm just very hot very self-conscious about my hair so I didn't want to take this off well you were lucky the polygraph examiner begins setting up though Susan willingly agreed to take the polygraph as you'll soon see it did not go as planned I've been better right away the polygraph examiner starts building rapport with Susan he asks her about her experience with polygraphs have you ever had a polygraph before I did a lot of times what was that about [Music] why wouldn't she remember um I think you would remember unless it was maybe a long time ago it was yeah it was 30 or 40 years ago oh geez um it's extremely hard to believe that Susan doesn't recall the circumstances when she had previously been polygraphed the experience is extremely stressful and would certainly be memorable even if it was years ago I do not remember a lot of stuff a very good first okay I have a friend like that I do not remember people at all or or I have a bad concept of time true Susan mentions her memory problems almost immediately this is rather convenient as remembering timelines is critical in an investigation this is likely a tactic so she can claim to not recall incriminating information during the polygraph or interrogation and blame it on her poor memory the investigator will likely ask her to recall non-incriminating information from her past to disprove her claim of having a bad memory so when they're asking me questions about what happened three weeks ago I'm trying to you know filtering a month on either direction Susan tells him that she has worked on her property for 22 years before the polygraph examiner explains the process of the polygraph test and tells her he has to set up his equipment we got all this equipment we need to set up Pulse blood pressure and skin electoral conductivity good job how do you remember all that stuff um not to say I remember all kinds of things I do not remember a lot of stuff I if you watch it on TV or things like that I I watch out um crime shows on TV alone I like the uh the British British things more than anything else oh really yeah um there's one called um Rosemary and Thyme they go out and solve crimes where I mean it's one of those you know stupid things you go out to trim a tree and find a body sure you know for the most part it's things that are not plausible oh I can move a little bit Yeah if this new door just a little bit whatever you're comfortable is I'm almost comfortable gotcha yeah me too I'm the most comfortable at home Susan brushes her hand across her forehead possibly wiping sweat from her brow increased sweating can be indicative of someone being in fight or flight mode due to a perceived threat well how about me are you comfortable with me no I'm not you're not comfortable with me no I mean I am happy oh okay I I'm fine with one or two people but when a large group of people start to get anxious the way she describes her anxiety attacks sounds like Susan suffers from panic disorder possibly panic disorder with agoraphobia agoraphobia is an anxiety disorder associated with a fear of places or situations that could make someone Panic feel trapped or embarrassed I went down went to Jackson County Mental Health good and uh psychiatrists and psychologists down there they were taking all kinds of pills and trying to give them to me even mentioned her tamper and I'm not I'm not trying to get you a spot but just let tell me about that how did she uh what does that look like it's great it's just outworks but you know she was screaming real loud and really it's bipolar you know it's it's bipolar something that you came up with or she told you no no she is State medication for it or I think so I didn't even asked her oh yeah oh yeah do you have a mental health diagnosis Susan um I have um you know problems with people okay that's a that's basically the whole thing I didn't put a name on it they call it some uh if they did if they did I can't remember what it was Susan states that she has what she calls problems with people this could be a number of personality disorders and it seems hard to believe she doesn't recall what she was diagnosed with most people know what kind of mental illness they have just a little bit about me I mean I used to be a detective too I can't read anything I don't have classes I'll read it to you would you be able to sign it if I read it to you yes okay interrogator reads Susan arrives and has her verbally agree to take the polygraph he cannot force her to take a polygraph but whether or not someone willingly agrees to take a polygraph is important to an investigation it's actually surprising Susan is willing having these rights of mind you wish to take a polygraph exam um I feel happy about it but I won't do it I only got yes or no yes okay Susan also claimed earlier she's into crime shows and she may think she knows ways to beat the test all I need you to do then since just acknowledge that I read those to you was sign your name right in there somewhere oh or not you don't have to it's just I just want to make sure that yeah um shaking a little bit I guess that's true after Susan States she's shaking you can hear her verbally sigh a few times to release tension these Behavior suggest that she's feeling uncomfortable possibly as a result of her self-reported history of anxiety most people are nervous taking a polygraph exam so this is expected am I making you nervous and thank you for everything very logically I was telling you the one officer just a couple minutes ago there are diseases like sickle cell anemia that could be dealt with very simply by having people that have that Gene to not have kids and then one generation we would not have that disease anymore okay China allows people to have one child which is very good in India you've got a billion people in this little spot it's stupid when Susan describes how she thinks of everything very logically she's very unemotional and comes across as somewhat egocentric she appears to believe that she's smarter than everyone else as she has logical answers about how to solve world problems this also shows that Susan has some very rigid beliefs I hope no but if somebody does get killed I'm not very concerned about it because of seven billion people on this planet so you're pragmatic about life in general yes comes and goes yes her comments about not being concerned when someone dies reveals that she may have difficulty forming emotional attachments to other people it also suggests that she may lack empathy if she's unable to see that although one person's death may not affect her personally there are likely other people who are impacted and hurt by the loss of that person it could also be an indication that she's willing to solve an issue by using methods that make sense to her and are convenient to her regardless of what those methods are well it's pretty uh um it's probably pretty durable for someone that works of farm animals Susan then changes topics abruptly shifting from her beliefs about people dying to discussing Robert's death the reason this happened was I do not feel um that any person or animal should suffer okay Susan is steepling her hands which is an indication that she feels confident in what she's saying she's also using her hands as illustrators bringing her hands down slightly multiple times in order to punctuate her point when illustrators are out of sync or misplaced this can signal that someone may be lying however Susan's movements appear to match up with her words I'm not I didn't think that he was going to live more than another couple of minutes but he was definitely suffering okay and I ended the suffering okay Susan is using moral justification for killing Robert and is beginning to build a narrative as to why she did what she did she alleged she was simply ending his suffering and was acting humanely her explanation of what she did to Robert also shows her rigidity of thinking she thought it was okay to end his suffering and so she went ahead and shot him a jury might be less likely to convict someone of murder if this were truly a mercy killing but she could still be charged with murder do you have any concerns about taking any polygraph examination today have enough have you had any injury or major surgery in the last six months the interrogator goes back to reading the usual preliminary questions to make sure she's coherent and can take the polygraph without being under the influence or have any conditions that would interfere with the accuracy of the test this is always done as the machine picks up physical and biological responses that can easily be affected by drugs alcohol or certain medical conditions however it's important to note that polygraph exams are notoriously unreliable so you know alcohol in the past 24 hours or so I had a margarita um that was very big on the third Thursday of last month okay wow Susan is able to recall certain information in a lot of detail despite previously stating that her memory isn't good have you ever been diagnosed by a doctor or Professional Medical person with depression or anxiety yes okay which one both of them or just anybody you mentioned an anxiety I don't I don't think anybody ever said I was depressed I get depressed occasionally and most of the time if I just go out and sit next to a tree and look at my little 28 or something I'm happy and just a short period of time and you don't remember what your mental health diagnosis was if they had a name for it or anything like that but I'll just do better when you're alone I just I do better when I'm alone a Zoo's bipolar really bad and she starts stuff and doesn't finish and it's almost like she when she starts something she doesn't have a plan to finish it or not I get these anxiety things like um when when I go to chop I mentally put blinders on myself I try not to look at people and I manage quite well here she is describing the feelings and behaviors of people that struggle with agoraphobia or a rather serious social anxiety disorder sometimes people with social anxiety disorder will describe these sort of feelings or behaviors when in public settings given her choice to live in a very isolated rural environment with animals this is probably true she then describes an incident that occurred to her years ago where she was in a grocery store and began to have an anxiety attack she left her cart in the store and went out to her car to wait until the anxiety went away but while there she was approached by two paramedics and uh he said you are right and I said yes I'm fine go away and I tried to explain to him that you know I was okay it just happened in my anxiety attack and I'd be all right in a couple of minutes I managed to get one of them to go away and the second one took my blood pressure and I managed to convince them to come away and leave me alone it's just doing their job yeah well like I say it was it was it it made it worse if it just you know if if they had left me alone for a few more minutes I would have been just fine although earlier she reported that she had difficulty remembering things and had a bad concept of time she recalled in detail an anxiety attack she had 10 years ago she may have felt like she was being scrutinized or negatively judged by the paramedic which is common in individuals with social phobia with social phobias some people suffering from anxiety have a specific fear of social or performance situations as they're afraid they may act in a way that causes them to feel embarrassed or humiliated Susan do you know um what you're suspected of or why you're down here or why you're talking to you can you tell me in your own words what that is they they think that I um killed Robert for absolutely no reason or whatever Susan repeats the same story and confirms there was never a physical altercation between her and Robert no time in several months that he had been there that's we ever had any kind of a um physical or um even verbals confrontation to pick words that would have resulted in my deliberately killing him to the best of your knowledge Susan has anybody else ever died on your property human I mean there are more changes in her manner of speaking here she not only slowed down and became more deliberate in her words but she also shifted to more limited answers where previously she's been quite talkative to the point of adding in unnecessary and unrelated information at times in fact she often overshares such as offering up information about her mental health before the detective even asked her about it would you tell me if there were heading um I guess no Susan may have schizotypal personality disorder which is characterized by consistent intense discomfort with relationships and social interactions usually accompanied by unusual thoughts speech and behaviors it typically leads to severe and persistent anxiety and a tendency to avoid social situations people with schizotypal personality disorder tend to hold peculiar beliefs and don't respond appropriately to social norms and cues this would also explain Susan's flat emotions are limited or inappropriate emotional responses incorrect interpretation of events and her dressing in Peculiar ways or being unkimmed however Susan doesn't appear to have any ideas of reference which is when someone interprets random events as having a special meaning for them or magical thinking like believing she has special powers which are some common symptoms of schizotypal personality disorder although she technically only needs to meet five criteria for this diagnosis the ideas of reference and magical thinking are pretty distinguishing symptoms for this diagnosis to our knowledge Susan has never been diagnosed with this disorder appreciate your honesty fine I'm trying to avoid this whole thing to start with yeah a lady somewhere and I was not really concerned about him I I put him out of his misery um I did that you know I do that for my animals and this was the first time I did it for a human being then I went ahead and was thinking about my pigs worrying that if I told anybody that they were going to come out and shoot all my pigs for doing what pigs do Susan's utter lack of concern for Robert and the fact that she only cared about her pigs being taken away Cuts against her story that she didn't kill him by her own desires an innocent person would have been traumatized shooting someone they've known even if they didn't have an extremely close relationship Susan expresses no signs of remorse or guilt she appears to have very rigid beliefs about her animals being more important than any human's life this is the biggest thing that makes no sense to me is why he would be in their big pen and you can ask me four times tomorrow and three times the day after I have it doesn't make any sense why he was out there repeating it doesn't make any sense makes her sound honest but Susan is smart she may be trying to make herself sound believable if he could attack me for some reason I've killed him I would have called you immediately I'd say hey look this time you know pull the knife on me or whatever busted in my room and I shot him I will repeat this at no time you know during the time that I knew him did we get into any kind of a fight saying they never had any alter occasions removes any possible self-defense claims she may have wanted to allege it sounds like tensions are pretty high just when you leave right you've had it whether you leave so when you leave it's Susan and Robert are the only ones left on the property yeah and she killed him okay um I'm not a cop I'm not a detective but so why do you think um the detectives think that you might have killed him before the pigs I have no idea does that make sense to you that they might think that that happened well it makes that it it makes sense that they think it might have happened good but you know to kill somebody for a making a mess I you know 2017 before I mean I've known of other cases where things happen and accidents happen too the interrogator is offering an alternative Theory which is a read technique where he will present a less morally despicable justification for her actions He suggests that perhaps she killed him by accident as she made it clear that she didn't do it in self-defense he's hoping she'll latch onto the idea of an accident as it's a less morally objectionable explanation than intentional murder this was this was not an accident uh before all this had happened um he was he was more logical like I am which to my knowledge um not now to my whatever anyway to my feeling uh would not cause him to be survival or anything like that uh I did not feel that he was depressed as other people have said um my one neighbor said that she had talked to him and that he was very depressed and I did not get that feeling from him if this was her way of trying to shed doubt on Robert's mental state it was a very discreet way of doing so by sharing that other people claimed Robert was depressed Susan implies the possibility of him taking his own life however no one would take their own life in this way so Susan um if someone actually caused his death before he was in distress like for whatever reason and then call the police about it what do you think should happen to someone like that this is a common question police ask suspects as their answer can be very informative to their state of mind and consciousness of guilt a guilty person will usually give an answer that includes a less harsh punishment or doesn't give a straightforward answer an innocent person will generally want the most severe punishment for the killing of someone they cared about or knew with little hesitation well I mean you say that you shot him because you thought he was a gonoring yes if he was even still alive yes so let's say that's not the case let's say it was something else and let's say someone killed Robert for any other reason not throwing in the pen what do you think should happen to that person a non-guilty party was just a much harsher sentence for such a disturbing and heinous crime she then displays trades of antisocial personality disorder and callousness toward Robert's death I don't like people I think you know if we got rid of a billion or two from the world would be a lot better uh for a short time absolutely pretty populated again I think that the human races make it a big mess of this planet um but no if uh if you simply kill people for no reason you should go to jail her statement of killing people for no reason shows that she likely believes there are valid reasons to kill people and perhaps she thinks her reason for killing Robert was valid she then gave another little hint in her psyche by revealing her rather negative world view of humanity and her indifference about human life for how long do you think this should go to jail um two weeks are you just kidding yeah yeah um her joke is very telling of her disregard for both human life as well as the seriousness of the situation she avoids giving an actual answer that's not up to me well I'm asking you because I'm curious as to how you feel about that um um doesn't matter to you whether it was an accidental killing or an on-purpose killing would that make a difference to you oh yes okay well the other officer I mean I've been joking about this for a long time but long much longer than before I actually shot somebody um that I was going to feed people to my base admitting that she joked about feeding people to her pigs will be key evidence to show both planning premeditation and that she was involved in Robert being put in the pig's feeding pen just off to the right side of the barn and facing it is a large pig pen I have not read any conclusive evidence or anything back if you feed me to a pig it doesn't do them good ah I feed them when when I kill another animal uh most of the time I'll give them the cuts Susan have you ever fed your pigs any other animals before no if it's an accident um which to the best of my knowledge this was not and that this was not an accident by me it's a bit strange to say to the best of my knowledge here it's almost like she's leaving room for the possibility that she may have been in a dissociative state or not recall that she killed Robert to the best of your knowledge you said is it possible that something else happened oh not much I guess I I phrase that off okay well you know I do listen to words yes okay yeah well I'm fine I think you do too yes I try to because I'm I'm I'm bad with words like it it takes me a long time for words to get from the back to the front had it been an accident um you know had people's right now I want you to I want you to play the role of a dishonest person for a second if you had actually done something different to Robert that caused his death well we keep you from telling me that right now um don't want to go to jail okay fair enough you know I have Robert staying in this room and that 10 feet away from him um I've got body parts why didn't I why didn't I not get rid of it a long time ago I don't know um not in the uh psychological situation where I would become a mass murderer and just you know go into a school and start killing people or going forward don't go into um you know crowd and blow myself up or something like that uh my general feelings um when I get these anxiety attacks is more homicidal than Society this will be a useful statement to show that she has the ability to do what she did it almost appears that the time she spent in this interview is wearing her down to the point that she's becoming a bit sloppy and not watching what she says it's possible that Susan is referring to having intrusive thoughts about harming others intrusive thoughts which are unwanted thoughts or urges that pop into one's head and often cause great distress can be common with anxiety disorders intrusive thoughts are often about some loss of self-control such as harm to yourself or others I've never acted on anything like that has she ever got visible with you at all no no no no she screamed at you no no you've known her for a long time right I mean almost eight nine years what does she do when she gets upset and Matt I mean you have to have seen her mad I mean she just screams she just screams well I've seen a lot of yelling and no action like I no not really she's not uh a group of you know she's not a fighter come on in come on in you got my soda say they are listening thank you someone's listening thank you if I have been forced to stay in the store and there was a machine gun around I wouldn't say get away from me before I start shooting that's uh that's the way I feel when I have these anxiety attacks okay uh you need to be left alone I need to be left alone yes I need to just be left alone we're fine this suggests that the homicidal thought she has during anxiety attacks may not be intrusive thoughts but something else entirely people with intrusive thoughts do not want to act on these urges that is what is so distressing about having unwanted thoughts pop into one's head Susan on the other hand has said several times that when she's having an anxiety attack she needs to be left alone this appears to be a strongly held belief and she was irritated when she mentioned a paramedic trying to help her during an anxiety attack this is purely speculative but it's possible that the homicidal thoughts are occurring because Susan cannot accept when someone goes against her very rigid beliefs if someone stopped her from leaving the store this would prevent her from being alone which may cause her to feel very angry by admitting that she's capable of killing if she isn't left alone when she feels anxiety Susan may be revealing her motive for killing Robert it's possible that Robert may not have left her alone during an anxiety attack which then triggered her to kill him he should cares again let's talk a little bit about polygraph stuff okay you want to get together a list of questions for you yes so we're going to agree on the answers you're going to answer either yes or no to my questions yes very simple if there's any ambiguity you don't understand what I'm asking and it's it's not yes or no but it's maybe that's not a good question right okay because Susan you can lie to me or you can lie to the detectors but you can't lie to yourself so if you're answering the question and you know it's a lie you're going to know it and your physiology or your body is going to react accordingly because we have hardwired into us this fight or flight this animal instinct to protect ourselves okay so I have a little bit of work to do to get some questions ready okay we're almost ready to do the test actually as soon as I get my questions ready and we go over them with each other do you need a break or anything like this you need to use a restroom or anything okay so if you'll just I don't mean to be rude but I need to kind of stay over here and concentrate for a little bit instead of remaining silent as the polygraph examiner requested Susan once again discusses her disapproving views of the human race this time saying that the reason there are so few bald eagles is because of pesticides killing them so that's another reason why I'm it's not a not in favor of the human race and even though I am among the human race Susan again indicates her preference for Animals over people which she seems to happily admit without it even being asked she fails to realize that these comments are making her look like the kind of person who would kill someone and then allow her pigs to benefit by eating them I can type but you can't read what I've typed what is that because my spelling is atrocious spelling okay everybody says the English language is hard to learn and I agree with them City should start with a C or possibly an S but it should not start um chat should definitely start with a k to the best of my knowledge he was Benjamin Franklin that said we should only have 23 letters instead of 26. I heard that before too he also wanted the turkey to be the national bird it's cold now but thank you for the sandwich is there anything else you think I should know before we get started that you just haven't told me just because we haven't asked the question right or something the interrogator is trying to get Susan to confess to possibly more crimes by telling her that her hiding information may cause her to fail the polygraph he leaves her alone and asks her to think about that while he's gone all right oh whatever Susan wipes feces off the chair with her hand and then uses her hands to wipe her face with the tissue okay Susan just stand up for a second and I'll move that chair just a little bit I want your arm up here like this okay no the interrogator discovers Susan had gone to the bathroom in her pants Jay what's that right there is that is that something on the chair no that's something on me which I haven't done them 60 plus years okay yeah that was totally I think the camera's in that thing they're totally your fault she blames another officer claiming she had to use the restroom hours ago however she never is hurt asking to use the bathroom and wouldn't have been denied permission this is extremely odd behavior and suggests she may be more mentally ill than she comes across you know it doesn't matter I'll wash the cover later okay there's a few questions on this test that have to do with uh you're going to answer truthfully and I'm going to know it like is your first name Susan no answer truthfully no yes are you currently sitting down no yes see if you're going to mess with my tests we wasted a couple of hours okay Susan is intentionally answering the Baseline questions incorrectly she seems to have no real desire to take this test seriously and I don't know how long it would take you to find out what Susan Mark is not my name of first boom I will say that but oh okay well that's no problem I will say that it has been that for the last 40 years oh that's the easy one let me let me that's important let me let me uh change that well what is your real name oh okay the interrogator sets up the polygraph examination and has to reset the machine multiple times because Susan complains that it isn't comfortable finally he begins to conduct the test okay Susan this test is about to begin please sit still [Music] try not to talk just answer my questions yes or no yes okay do you intend to answer all questions about Robert's death with the truth yes not including this investigation have you ever lied to police or any other authority no this is hard targets itself did you injure Robert before the pigs began to eat him yeah do you know of any place on your property where there are body parts from any other person during the test Susan is fidgeting and moving her body frequently she didn't seem to have as much of a problem with sitting still during the interrogation and maybe trying to move around to make the test results useless or inaccurate as he specifically asked her to sit still during the exam however extra intakes of breath can often be an involuntary response to the fight-or-flight response occurring as the body needs additional oxygen do you ever get violent towards other people without justification no not including Robert have your pigs eaten on any other person that you know of yeah are you withholding any information concerning how Robert was actually first injured sorry this course is complete please install try to tell you okay go ahead and relax Susan well there's three separate times there where you've taken huge breaths moved and just yes I know and you're going to be able to cooperate I I thought I was I at this point I'm not sure correct is there something going through your mind during the test is causing you to not be able to to be calm guess the situation itself correct all these questions we've gone over before they shouldn't be I I realize that but trying to sit here and be still and just saying yes and I was more trouble than I thought it would be the polygraph has to be redone because Susan was unable to sit still and was breathing heavily during it do you intend to answer all questions about Robert's death with the truth yes during the second round of the test Susan begins heavily coughing at the end this is a way to sabotage the polygraph test [Music] during the second attempt it seems even more obvious she's trying to sabotage the test and is more uncooperative than the first time however it's important to note that though the coughing and heavy breathing may be an attempt to mess up the test it could also be because Susan is experiencing anxiety and may not be a deliberate attempt to skew the results we know that when people are trying to be deceptive or are under stress they do odd extra breathing and sniffing behaviors to bring in more oxygen and this may be what is happening with Susan ultimately it's unclear if Susan's behavior during the polygraph was intentional or not she's informed that the test is not usable for the most part but the interrogator has been able to obtain some data he's understandably unwilling to retest her so what happened you weren't coughing the whole time we were talking how well I was trying to I was trying to relax and it was wasn't working okay so you weren't having these troubles because you didn't want to take the test right oh no no I was trying to cooperate here's what I do have okay there's a little bit of data that I was looking at on there not a lot not enough for me to make an opinion but enough to make me concerned about a couple of things okay yeah most of the time people have those kinds of reactions during the test almost exactly like you is because they're withholding information at some point um for whatever reason they're scared of the consequences they don't know where to begin they feel like they've done something wrong or they've been lying to the police all along and they don't know how to get past that well I just want to tell you that I feel for your situation but I know I also don't believe you've told everything to the detectives today I think you know some more that's my opinion here the detective is using the positive confrontation step of the read technique this involves directly confronting the suspect with a statement that it is known they are involved in the crime I think you even said at times that your anxiety when it comes apart it's just something that people can't control when you're not on medication for it I understand that's that's well so that is part of the reason I can't accept still I guess too but you said I haven't been here for that you said you were a homicidal and not suitable during that yes the interrogator uses Susan's own words to confront her about his doubts and suspicions about her character and involvement Susan was you're thinking that if you left his body out in that pen long enough that almost everything would be destroyed and then you would have less to take care of wow I uh like the pigs would be a cleanup crew they do what they do like you said um I um I could have left them I couldn't have left him there for longer and that would be true but um I couldn't do it Susan may have slipped up here big time she says I could have left them though she's talking about Robert she uses a plural descriptor possibly indicating that there's more than one victim who's been fed to her pigs she fixes the mistake by switching back to him because it's only supposed to be Robert she's talking about two days you said though two days later you went out yes well I mean I I saw I saw him out there and it made me sit um I didn't actually throw up but it made me feel sick even though he was no longer a person he was just some body parts even though there were some body parts out there I could no longer um have my animals eating him but for two days you left him out there so they could do that yes I did I did and it was it was somewhat difficult Susan I can appreciate the situation that you're in it's not good I mean even even after I will I realize my situation is not good even after the death yes to allow animals to feed on a corpse is a crime yes okay so I mean they're probably going to deal with that yes but right now you Amir in here and I'm trying to find the truth of what really happens yes he presents her with a last opportunity to confess this is said to apply a feeling of pressure and urgency to her confessing and to make it seem like it's in the best interest to do so I'm telling you what I think is that you're not mentorful and you're withholding information from this investigation I truly believe that whether it's about I don't know I don't know if they find other body parts from other people then you know the situation you've been because of your actions afterwards yeah and because of the things you said before joking about feeding people to your pigs and whatever well like I say that's always that's always been my weird sense of humor oh you can get a weird sense of humor but when it then it turns around and it actually happens Ah that's not too good for you no I'm I definitely know that I did not know uh you're probably shot him when he's in the food more than just the time you're talking about I I for whatever reason I I do not know [Music] um well the more you talk the more the less I believe that you're ever gonna um be truthful with me about it so I think you should talk to somebody else okay trying to keep her confidence level low and make her understand that her story isn't believable before going into an interrogation with another detective this will put her in a better position mentally for them to try to get a confession I think you know more than you're telling them about Robert's death and that's all I'm asking you yeah and you're missing your best chance to tell them now before they either proven otherwise or later on you figure out you know now I better tell them the truth because I'm facing something serious and I think you're missed your chance but I gotta I gotta go take a break I can guarantee this is guilty just that you know you can't convict somebody over a feeling right I'll send someone else in here and talk okay yeah you need to tell them the truth you're leaving stuff out and you and I know it I'm you and I know it it's not a subconscious Susan you're leaving it out I I I might be but I really can't oh you are telling the whole story um tell them I don't know what else it would be I just no yes you do I I found him out in the pen dying yeah what happened before that's what you're leaving now I didn't see him the day until the until that day Susan size heavily multiple times while alone in the interrogation room indicating that she's feeling very stressed her arms are wrapped around her torso in a protective position which may be comforting for her it appears that Susan is berating herself possibly for not being able to complete the polygraph test it's possible that she thought if she completed the polygraph the detective would have believed her story of course it's also possible that she's just putting on an act for the camera as a ploy for sympathy it seems that she's still sitting in her soiled pants as she was not offered any opportunity to change clothes after the last detective discovered she had an accident she should have been given a chance to clean up one of the original interrogators returns to continue questioning Susan in the hopes that she will finally tell them something they can use he immediately jumps back into asking her about the pigs but you know that pigs will eat anything it can't give them the opportunity opportunity yes right and so how did Robert give them an opportunity I do not know I do not know in all the time that Robert had been there did he ever feed the pigs to my knowledge no did he ever go out and in the pen that she's in my knowledge no so you can see how when we listen to what you're saying I know that I know I know I know it doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense to me and so when you come out and you see your pigs eating Robert and he's still alive for us to hear that it's not even possible and no one in this no one here is outside this office people out there no one's no one would believe that if you take anybody and you put them in a pig pen even if they've been around pigs they're gonna know that if I start getting attacked by a pig or something I'm going to try to get out of here yes I'm not gonna lay down on the ground and let pigs just eat my stomach right until I can't move and then have someone come shooting the head all this time Brady was trying to be vague relaying Susan's jokes to investigators while at the same time defending her and contradicting his statements the discovery is finally revealed to him for the first time so it's been brought to my attention Okay that um there's you know there's quite a few of us out there okay there's some people already out there kind of doing their thing okay and for what I've been told is there's no doubt about it they found a human body part out on the property okay are you kidding me no that's right dead straight knocking our kid around that's a pretty serious thing you're serious oh my God what's up with that I don't know I don't know what to say I don't even believe it it's true how do you die how do you die do you guys even know we just just just starting okay and that's why I'm like you know you're straight up coming to come in here and figure out what's going on because you've been out on the highway yeah how could the body not good wow are you serious you guys all right one thing you find out about us you know both people so we're not going to come in and make something out not gonna do it I would say wow what do you think we might have found this out I don't know why I just don't know if you asked me I don't have no idea I haven't been I'm shocked that they found his body they found body parts that's what I've been told body parts and you've been on the property for a while now so that's why I'm asking you that's horrendous you guys that is horrendous you ever hear Susan talk about it no no just like Susan's own use of repeating words Brady saying no over and over might be evidence that he's trying to convince the investigators that he's speaking the truth oh my God and I'm gonna be I'm gonna be honest with you that that that that that that is shocking do you know something I'm not saying that you did anything but I'm wondering if you might know more than what you letting off no back in Susan's interrogation the case is about to take an unexpected turn I don't know how to do this without you do it the way that you need to need to I'm here to listen and I'm just going to listen to what you have to say right now okay the detective is trying to act supportive by telling Susan that he's there to listen to her he reaches out his hand across the table towards Susan a gesture of support and understanding almost as if he's holding her hand through this the detective is doing a good job keeping his voice calm and his Cadence slow his tone is very non-judgmental all of this will make it easier for Susan to open up it doesn't make sense just like Robert it doesn't make sense I have told you everything truthfully about Robert I don't know how his body got out there to start with I don't finally after hours of interrogation wearing her down Susan is about to reveal another disturbing secret she has kept hidden all this time oh God give me another piece of paper there's part of another body okay his name is Steve but who was Steve the year before Robert went missing in 2012 59 year old Stephen dellicino also a handyman had worked on Susan's property it's unclear exactly when he vanished if you found Susan's explanation of Robert's death Bazaar get ready because her story about Stephen is somehow even stranger anybody come around asking about him no how did you meet him he was one of those people that just showed up to worm and uh well now you say showed up was it like from a you know Help Wanted yes I think he was a couple years older than me what do you what's the structure you're talking about here oh look um this is the barn and then this is the area this is the fence he's on the other side of the fence right on the other side right on the other side of the fence about there okay she likely isn't drawing out where the body is to be helpful so they can locate it easier but by drawing a map she can have a distraction and something to look at besides the detective while discussing this it's easier for someone to confess while looking away or while busy with something else than it is to confess eye to eye with nothing to distract them from what is being revealed additionally her map makes the focus more on where it happened rather than what happened what's the part of the body it was the skull of um a couple other things I don't remember okay pieces of other bone Steve was a thief he stole um a lot of things from people Susan alleges that Steve stole guns from her and that she confronted him about the theft because she wanted to know where they were so she could get them back apparently knew where my little pistol still was because he reached over and grabbed it we started to have a little tussle nothing big to start with the following explanation is one of the most bizarre and shocking stories we've ever seen in an interrogation so you guys are wrestling he grabbed a little pistols and he said that um you know he doesn't want to go back to jail and he decided he was going to kill himself so um he shot himself in the head right there in your home right right there right there where did he shot himself in the head at well that that was the whole stupid thing he he shot himself and then he ran out I always thought it was a little bit done it wouldn't kill you but it would certainly hurt yeah and it's you know it was five shots for crying out loud he he went out of the room that was when it got even worse okay and he emptied the gun in his own head I could I could not believe it I could not believe it but it's just a 22 with a little one inch barrel and it was just going boom boom and where did he shoot himself up I mean in the head he was you know he was bleeding Susan verifies certain details about her story saying that Stephen shot himself in the top of the head multiple times during this altercation she claims she was wrestling with him for the gun and holding onto his arm after a fashion he managed to do it and basically I did the same thing which like I say it doesn't make any damn sense at all like two people would end up getting like Pig pants too so what happened with him and I him I did leave him out there for quite a while you know until there was practically nothing left like how long's allowed I left him there for a couple of weeks Susan tells the investigator that she gathered up all the animal bones on her property and dug a hole to bury them along with some of Steven's bones my good old neighbors they saw me throwing bones in a hole so they called you when her neighbors called the police they arrived to investigate the hole she had dug I said they were buried about two feet now I asked him if he wanted a shovel and he didn't want to shovel on me left okay notice that Susan is now mirroring how the detective is sitting this is what he wanted her to do and it's why he's been sitting like that for the majority of the interrogation I probably knew him more than anyone else okay five years Steve yeah he wanted to go ahead and leave go to California for a while and then possibly to this house that he had in Florida which I did not believe in the slightest is why would you be worried to be living here why would you be living in a rundown trailer here sure he gave me his food stamp card okay he gave me food stamp cards and uh he said he was he was leaving just give me a ride that was when I confronted him you may have noticed a pattern here that in Susan's version of events these accidents seem to occur around the time when both of these men tried to leave her property the detectives verify Susan's story and point out the inconsistencies then they focus on one of the glaring issues so he was holding it away from his head because a contact wound makes a much different uh wounds then yeah it wasn't a contact mode Susan's claim that the shot was not a contact wound makes her story that Steve took his own life highly unlikely especially combined with the claim that he shot himself five times in the head Susan realizes she needs to claim the shot was in close range as the detective informed her earlier that the wound would look different on the skull depending on how far away the gun was when Steve was shot it appears that Susan has tailored her story to fit the evidence the police will find when they examine the skull so are you holding him and he's facing you and you're trying to get together I was I was holding his arm Susan claims that the scuffle over the gun occurred in her bedroom and that Steve shot himself in the head once before running to the barn she then clarifies that he didn't shoot himself the first time until he was outside of her room likely because she knows that the forensics will not match her story was Steve dead when the pigs started eating out oh yeah definitely how how can you be sure oh he was dead well he shot himself the five times but what I mean what happened after it after he's shooting himself what's happening well he finally they finally went through his head okay and then he just died there and he thought he died right there in the barn and and I just I just left him there and I didn't know what the hell to do she claims that by the time she returned to the bar and the pigs had come through the open gate and dragged Steve's body towards the pin and that the animals had started licking the blood off of him instead of getting the pigs away from him she says that she just let the pigs drag him all the way into the pen and begin eating him it wasn't until later that she built a wall to separate the barn from the pen hey remember me how you doing oh god um too many bubbles a little gas coming out this is gonna sound even more stupid than anything else but one of my problems that stupid silver thing over there is crooked and I can't stand looking at it it's possible that when things are not the way Susan wants them to be it triggers her anxiety it's also possible that this was her way of gaining some control in a very out of control situation is that better a little better smart better okay that's not all I can do all the time yeah yeah the detective scoots closer to Susan by increasing his proximity he's putting the pressure on her this may be especially stressful for Susan because of her reported anxiety and dislike of people in general I pick up stuff like that and right because sometimes little things bother you like that yeah I I go into a store and I see papers a jar and I take all the papers and straighten them up and make it all nice and it's stupid but things like that bug the hell out of me food trash papers baseball cards such that affected my of working on the ground test either they spend a few minutes recounting everything Susan has stated about Robert and Steve before the investigator confronts her about the possibility of more horrifying finds being discovered on her farm and what happens when we find a third person we will not find the third person you won't find one or is there one that we can't find you will not find I do not know if he went into the pen voluntarily or somebody possibly put him into the pen because they heard me talking all these my stupid jokes which I realize are more stupid every time I tell them right especially after it actually happened right yes do you think I believe your story no do you think detective Henderson believes your story no you think uh I don't believe my story you don't believe it either no it's too stupid okay it's I'm going to leave I'm going to leave right now and I'm going to come back in or have detective Henderson come back in but I want you to think about everything that's gone on right now okay no nobody did that too so I can't see I can't see how that is I can't see how I'm gonna handcuff you guys after being arrested and spending the night in jail Susan is brought back to the interrogation room the next day to continue talking with investigators as you'll soon see they want more than just clarity about the deaths of Steve and Robert because they suspect something even more Sinister may have occurred can I say something really quick we went through a lot yesterday um and so I just want you to know that you know if you don't want to talk to us you don't have to I kind of don't care you know if you don't want to talk to us it's fine we can just take it back to the jail that's up to you oh you're here because you want to be yes so um that being said we can't do what we did yesterday we spent way too much time beating around the bush and all that we were spending all day today going through your property a lot of things have changed since last night so I don't want you to waste my time today okay and we don't want to waste yours either no all right so I'll let you I'll let you know that what I had been trying to forget I remembered laying there uh when I came into the pen his head was towards the West he was Belly Up and the pigs were on him I tried to shoot him off she chewed them off and I went up to get my gun and in those two minutes when I got back I think he did die I was I'm pretty sure he did die so now you're saying that you know that he was dead when you got back well that was the thing I um I'm pretty sure he was Ben did you check no this is a pretty big deviation from her previous story about how she put Robert out of his misery while it is possible she's telling the truth an alternative is that she's trying to escape more severe punishment by claiming that he was already dead when she shot him okay let's talk about Steve one of the forensics gonna show on them because they're most certainly not going to show what you told us you remember what happened you talked to us about the the struggling with the gun which by the way is about this big yeah you know I don't know how that struggle went down you know fighting over a little teeny tiny gun I was holding on to his arm I I'm saying that this is why I'm saying like this stuff it's not that it doesn't make sense it's just flat out impossible Susan shifts her foot which is likely an anchor Point movement because she realizes that the detective isn't believing her story you've dug him up we are they're up there working on stuff right now wait I've seen him yeah okay when when you dig him up you will find a bunch of holes in his head where just on the top we was we were up I was like you know here holding his hand up yes so he's somehow going to reach back around and point the gun back at the top of his head when you're holding his his arm up he's going to reach down or angle his hand down enough and overpower you who is significantly bigger than him you are and you have a great upper body he's going to shoot himself in the top of the head yes and that's where we're at how do you manage to shoot five out of five shots into his head you were saying that you thought that when a person is shot that it causes a lot of damage and that it would kill them so maybe that first shot just wasn't enough and that's why you had to shoot him more than once that's the whole thing yes that's it yes and that makes a lot more sense than the struggle over someone's head that oh no I didn't shoot it I didn't shoot him five times I'm saying we struggle down it went awful you have to become Susan that's just not possible you when when you get this call and and I'm not concerned about the number of holes that are actually there I'm concerned about how they got there because it doesn't make sense that a person would be shot that many times in the head during a struggle or a side attempt or anything other than somebody else intentionally putting them there it just does not make sense and maybe there's a reason for it would would you sit still while I fired five shots at your head no that's what I'm saying okay that's that's what I'm saying that's the point that's what I'm trying to say to you is you know if if someone's shot one time that alone would probably incapacitate them they wouldn't fire off another round to their head and keep shooting at their own head or not move enough to get away from I mean that it just doesn't make sense it's really important for us to understand the truth and what happened and we want to believe what you're telling us right now I do not believe I did anything else to Steve oddly Susan prefaces her statement with the words right now this type of language is a huge red flag as an innocent person would be adamant and certain in their language alternatively she may be hinting that she has forgotten what happened because it was traumatic or even implying that she dissociated during the event maybe due to a panic attack however it's just as likely that she may want more time to think so she's letting the detectives know that her story could change in the future I'm actually saying also that maybe with more time you'd recollect other things that happen on your property that everything's possible I don't know I we don't have a lot of time I it's not because we're not trying to give you time I feel like we've been trying to give you time and it's not you know we can't take years to give you time to like remember things that happen I did not feel guilty about committing murder in either case the the joke became reality but you continue to make that joke even after it became healthy you even said that to me you said you were going to kill me and feed me your pigs thank you John actually I was I didn't even know what to say that I'm a police officer I didn't know what to say you know what I mean I was like whoa did she really say that I Susan's voice becomes more stressed and she breathes heavily again which is shown to be her sign of serious distress she struggles to get the words out which is very unusual for her because she typically has a response or explanation for everything her struggle could also be due to her growing frustration Susan's relatively flat demeanor is about to crack and you'll soon see her freak out over there at the gym you know one of the girls just got hair all the way down to her someone who works there yes okay what yeah one of the guards she's got hair all the way down to right okay and my stupid brain went into gear and I told her uh hey I could grab your head hammer and strangle you with it oh my gosh why would you see that I don't know I don't know it's this thing in here sometimes it just comes out it just comes out Susan seems to be highly impulsive and has a little to no filter so if she thinks something she just says it even if her comments are offensive or threatening what Susan is describing is possibly what is known as an intrusive thought it's important to note that the individual with the intrusive thought does not want to act on the thought which is why they find the idea so distressing the fact that Susan verbalized this thought in the moment to the guard with the long hair is somewhat unusual though intrusive thoughts usually remain internal as they may cause the person to feel shame or embarrassment this may go back to Susan's difficulty with understanding and navigating social interactions alternatively Susan could be putting on an act to make it look like she's upset by these thoughts when in actuality she's unbothered and even enjoys the reaction she gets from other people when she says the thoughts out loud this brief emotional meltdown provides a window into how Susan likely responds when she's under stress and may show us how she quickly becomes angry and snaps if she feels cornered and is unable to cope with a situation this is an indication of Susan's overall low frustration tolerance and inability to handle stress it just comes out when that happened the female detective again tries to float the accident or mercy killing Theory and Susan finally latches onto it yes it just it just comes out yes I mean it's stupid but it just comes out same thing with him I have no intentions of killing him I have no intents of killing Steve I did have the intention of finishing off Robert I did not know how he got in there why he got in there for anything I guarantee I guarantee there's more people on your property I guarantee it with what I know right now ah what are we supposed to do just ignore that what do I get for the guarantee Susan seems to be now proposing a quid pro quo for her confessing to more murders a Latin phrase that literally translates to this for that or something for something to get information from a suspect a quid pro quo in this context is when the interrogator gives the suspect something that either seems to be a secret or as a favor like a cigarette in exchange for something the interrogators want from the suspect which is usually information the quid pro quo may be very blatant like you tell me this and we will tell you or give you that or it may be more subtle such as telling the suspect they can have a cigarette but first let's talk about this or clear this up okay what do you want for the guarantee what are you talking about I mean you're making a mess out of my place but there's more people out there well that was supposed to leave them you're saying you you can't you you are saying you are saying you're guaranteed there's more people out on my property yes that's am I going to get 150 000 to fix up my place after you've invested up if we find one person it's worth messing up the property I am saying if you do not find anybody out there I'm almost positive we're going to I'm saying if you do not find anybody out there where I know there's two I'm saying if you do not find anybody out there are you gonna pay me 150 000 to put it back the way it was no absolutely that's that's what I'm saying there's no guarantee of nothing here well what do you want I don't want you messing up my place after me and Steve have put so much into it there's two dead people on your property or we're not supposed to look for more obviously there's probably more and what are we supposed to do just ignore that you're saying everything is obvious I don't know how it's it's obvious to me you have a hundred people come and go on your property in 20 years and you expect me to believe there's no one else there not possible if people come and go and they're kind of transient types and you know they may not have any close ties with their family so people aren't going to report them missing sometimes we've got to look at that group of people we it would we would not be doing our jobs if we didn't unearth every square inch of your property to look for people if we don't do that we're not doing our jobs because what if we miss someone a key Point here is that Susan doesn't consider human life to be as valuable as the detective is expressing Susan has made her beliefs very clear when it comes to human life such as her comments on overpopulation what is Meaningful to the detective probably makes no sense to Susan and she's likely wondering why they're making such a fuss just to find a body or two now if I knew exactly where those people were at we wouldn't go make them absolutely I know exactly where to look just like when you were to look for Robert then we dig up a little hole and we get the person out and that's the end of it huh so you don't want that you you want to say well I don't know if there could be 12 bucks I don't know I want you I I want you to go out and find the best GPR there is in this planet we don't need to and use it not to dig up my property it's getting dug up we have to the detectives know how important Susan's land is to her and this may be a manipulation tactic to get her to admit if and where any other bodies are buried having her property messed up is a huge trigger for Susan so if anything will get her to admit to another body being there it will likely be this if if there's somebody out there you're just not telling me because you don't want to get in trouble or whatever that's fine we're gonna find the people because we're gonna dig it up but you say you're saying first fact that you're going to find people out there I'm saying I am saying I can almost 100 guarantee that Susan and I am saying for the other half a percent that you're not finding anybody out there okay and you're making a big mess out of my place we're gonna look so we have I sure don't want you digging off my damn dog I understand that I understand that what if there's somebody underneath your dog what are they supposed to do I don't want to desecrate your dog's grave that's special to you but you have that was 15 years ago I understand that you're saying that for the last 15 years I've been killing people no not at all I'm saying there could be other dead people on your property and if you know about it you better just tell me I don't I don't and save us all this you know of things that we have to do we know that there's two dead people there we also know that we don't we don't know how many more there are so we are going to dig and look until we make sure that we have checked every square inch of that 20 acres and we know for sure there's no one there the only way to do that is to go Hands-On and to check the whole damn thing foreign what else are we supposed to do you tell us unless we had someone to say here here's a map there's somebody there or I think there might be somebody over here I don't know how they got there but they're there but that's what I just said and now you're saying you're not going to do it because it's just a general area sure you showed us where Robert was and you showed it and you showed us where Steve was yeah we went and looked at Robert today sure enough there he was right where he said it stay with me Steve was in a hole Robert was in a bag yeah okay I told you where both were okay okay I told you where the dog is I told you where The Mamas are you can run the little thing over the top of it oh that's not a person that's one little area 20 acres you can see the task at hand for us that's why we have a billion people out there and we're going to bring in whatever we have to and you can look you're gonna spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on this to find a person sure Susan sounds shocked that so many resources would go into finding these bodies again this shows the little value she places on human life and likely explains how she was able to take the lives of these men well the worst is done if you kill somebody and they're out there or there's somebody dead out there they're dead we can't bring them back but see that you you you're saying something and you're not backing it up with the damn thing are you going to sign a piece of paper say it out with if you quit my job yes yes I don't have to you just said you would if you didn't find anybody I'm just telling you I don't have to I'm that confident that there's people out there okay if you're that confident sign a piece of paper saying if I don't find somebody out there at least one person out there I'm a quiff and this is why I don't get you is when you you continue to be so too hostile you can yeah okay you continue to put up a fight yes because because I don't want my place looking at a map as you care more about animals than you do people to some extent yes okay I also hear that I'm to your place we're not that great of people at times they would be what society would probably consider the low lives the drinkers the people that have problems people who get arrested yes that kind of thing people who steal and screw people over and I took care of a lot of them I gave them a helping hand are you telling me out of 100 people that came to your place that are transients and have problems and and maybe mostly drunk issues it sounds like not necessarily drug issues it sounds like you might have kept your way away from those people try to okay there you go you've selected a certain group of people that you wouldn't accept to come work at your place and out of those hundred only two of them ended up dead so that doesn't make any sense if if I've been doing this for years wouldn't have been getting better at it that's usually how people get caught as they do something that leads them to get caught Susan was arrested on January 14 2014 for two counts of first degree murder two counts of abuse of a corpse and one count of identity theft Susan wasn't done with her crazy admissions though during an interview Susan allegedly admitted to burying 17 more bodies somewhere on her farm this prompted almost a month of searching including investigators digging around 50 holes in the hopes of uncovering more of her victims ultimately though it was determined there were no more bodies hidden on her Farm there is speculation that Susan said this as one of her Twisted jokes or to intentionally frustrate investigators eventually Susan's pigs were all euthanized she was reportedly irate when she found out especially because they were killed instead of their meat being donated to a food pantry somewhat surprisingly Susan pled not guilty to all charges and represented herself when the case went to trial she actually cross-examined the lead investigator and consistently interrupted the trial so much so that she had to be removed from the courtroom on several occasions none of Susan's explanations for either Roberts or Steven's deaths matched the horrific evidence it was uncovered that Robert's legs had been removed with an ax while Stephen had been shot three or four times in the head it didn't help that while in prison Susan signed a birthday card from the sweetest murderer in Jackson County another sign of what she called her sense of humor in 2015 Susan Monaco was found guilty on all counts and sentenced to two consecutive 25-year prison terms totaling a 50-year sentence with no chance of parole

Channel: EXPLORE WITH US

Views: 7,005,463

Keywords: documentary, true crime documentary, psychology, law

Id: F1oeZe6SET4

Length: 170min 29sec (10229 seconds)

Published: Sun Sep 04 2022