Demons and evil spirits in scripture: Dr. Michael Heiser 2019

hey everybody this Joshua Lewis with the remnant radio thank you so much for tuning in today got an exciting episode for you with dr. Michael Heizer and my buddy hats also known as Michael Miller we're gonna be talking about demonology and demons and fallen angels and evil spirits and all that fun stuff talk about dr. Heiser's new book hope you guys enjoy yeah so dr. Heiser tell us a little about yourself today oh so no one on your end I'm hearing audio from YouTube let's cut that out go away YouTube are we at so for those of you who are watching I have YouTube open up on the computer and that's what's caused that loop of audio now we're done so this is why it's difficult and then I have a co-host you guys it's it's very difficult because you got to run the audio all by yourself it's it's my implant I'm telling you dr. Heiser tell us a little bit yourself in your ministry so I can get going yeah well I for the last 15 years I was scholar and residents at faith Life Corporation they are the makers of Lagos Bible Software came there right out of grad school so that was 2004 been in Washington ever since we're going to move in less than five weeks though to Florida I'm gonna be the executive director of The Awakening school of theology and ministry in Jacksonville it's a new school we're gonna have physical classes and also distance ed we have it's we're not pursuing accreditation we're not worried about anything like that this is really to train people who go out into ministry to give them a good grounding in biblical theology because the the church is connected to is part of a large network 25,000 people are so they have seven or eight international campuses and they send hundreds of people out every year to do some kind of ministry and local churches all over the world but to to quote them a year and a half ago we don't really teach them anything so then that's how I got sucked into the vortex you would you please move and help us and specifically they wanted to go through in the first year the the content you know Genesis to Revelation content my book unseen realm and then the second year is anything I care about which is going to be drill downs into biblical theology it's going to be some apologetics there kind of stuff you know some study methods you know just will do a modular mishmash of things that I think are important that you know people ought to know if they go out and do any kind of ministry so that's my training I'm a scholar by training I did scholarly things I taught on different campuses of distance ed for over twenty years I'm a PhD and Hebrew Bible and Semitic languages that qualifies me to write and teach you know as I have to this point so been online for over twenty years doing Bible stuff and sort of the offensive world trying to do again what I call now I didn't call it then but postmodern apologetics I didn't really have a word for it just you know people that thought really badly about a lot of things that you know you just try to help postmodern apologetic sounds a whole lot better yeah that's that's me so I'm a biblical scholar who tries to get content to the lay person to help them engage in context that's especially what floats the boat here so so one of our guests asked you know why this go why your school opposed to any other school if you were if you were to make your sales pitch to our guys right now that are watching what would you say what what makes this different than other schools and seminaries my first question would be have you read unseen realm if the answer to that is yes then you already know the answer to the question there there's nothing like the content an unseen realm for the the lay audience and in the seminary student the reason I say it that way is because the dirty little grid of buttons in realm which this is now pushing a hundred thousand units it's a huge bestseller I have a thousand reviews on Amazon it's still five stars four point nine technically there's nothing like it and and it's not really smart or he does magic tricks okay that all that it is is I'm taking peer-reviewed scholarship on lots of different subjects tracing biblical theological threads from Genesis to Revelation and making all of that material decipherable to the layperson with an eye toward paying special attention to the supernatural worldview of the biblical writers and how that serves as a template for understanding lots of other things in both Testaments everything in unseen realm is peer reviewed okay Mike never had an original thought all right so there's no secret to this other than the fact that we the the three of us know that the way scholars think about the Bible is a whole lot different than what you hear in church and frankly it's a lot different in in a number of instances than what you even get in seminary because an m.div by design and this isn't a bad thing it just is what it is an m.div is designed to be a mile wide and an inch deep okay that's what it is because you're supposed to get exposure is your first theological degree it used to be called a back source of infinity for a reason it's the first theological degree to give pastors the minimal amount of training that they need to minister in a local church and hopefully teach them well enough that they can continue to be lifelong learners and studiers of Scripture so a lot of what I do is completely new to the people absorbing it to the scholar it's like yeah you know we've known about this for you know how many hundred years now you know it's just you know there's really nothing new but I just think it's a shame I think that scholars are supposed to serve the public interest and believe in spouts are supposed to be raising the bar and feeding congregations you know helping to do that whether they're on staff or not and and honestly it doesn't happen that often I mean I can count on two hands the number of scholars that if you pressed me and said who intentionally as a scholar does things for people that will never take a seminary class that just wouldn't want to learn scripture there are not that many AP that doesn't mean they're not capable they are capable but there are lots of things that get in the way or you know they don't they don't you know just jump in for a number of reasons you know some of them are good some of them are not so good but this is what we try to do so if you want to learn to read your Bible you know again for the first time if you want to never read your Bible again the same way sign up for my school if that troubles you then don't just don't it's really that simple and for someone who hasn't read unseen realm that this just sounds like you know like we're just sort of making stuff up or freestyling here don't know how to answer the question oh I do know how to answer the question yes read yes and I think I think the the gentleman who asked the question has actually read the book I think was just looking for yeah just for clarity and I think that's a great answer and unfortunately for us that that's something that we're passionate about it's trying to get that scholar level of conversation in everyone's hand right what I'm telling ya for students who sign up who have read the book the book is as I say in the beginning of the book it's either the preface of the first chapter I can't remember unseen realm is not a theory of everything unseen realm is a beginning point this is where you begin if you have the content of unseen realm in your head you will never read scripture again the same way you will have a framework for taking all the data points that you're learning in church or your own study or wherever it is and you will have a framework now to connect all those dots I am a dot connector again I don't have any original thoughts it's just I'm a sifter and a dot connector that's what I do I see patterns I see connection points and I try to give people ice try to sort of build the matrix in an unseen realm give you the framework give you the lay of the land so that when you read your Bible you're going to see things you're gonna see connectivity you're gonna see how one thing feeds into another and informs another thing so we're gonna do for those who have read the book oh there's lots of places to drill down I have enough content for another two unseen realms if I ever get to it I don't know that I will but I am NOT I have there is no content shortage here I have a personal bibliography of almost 7,000 items of all things covered in unseen realm I have been collecting that for over 20 years hmm I do not have a content problem I have a time and spatial limitation problem remember the best we can Michael I remember after I read your book there was the the connection with the incarnation virgin birth with the same thing in Genesis 6 the sons of God and you were basically saying like God was using that means or a similar means to trump or overcome what the enemy has done and I'm curious to know like when you go through these causes at your school and that kind of thing is there a bibliography not just from modern-day scholarship but also from early church history where you can show this has always been the thought process behind that or is that a connection that you personally made or other scholars made modern scholars yeah it's the let's just take the Genesis 6 6 thing for instance you can find early church fathers who took the Genesis 6 and part of it was because they had a fondness for Enoch or they could see a connection there you could Tertullian IRA næss I mean you can find these guys that were tracking on on all this kind of stuff once you hit the fourth century it sort of dies because of Agustin he wasn't the first to reject the the supernatural interpretation of Genesis 6 that belongs to Julius africanus whose life overlapped just a little bit with agustín's but after Agustin the church more or less drifts away from from this view and and some other things because of Agustin's influence and I'm not here to say Agustin was a bad guy he wasn't you know I'm not smarter than Agustin I mean he was brilliant but there are things about Agustin that matter such as he didn't know Hebrew he hated Greek you know he was a Latinist he's answering questions that people are raising in his time to try to articulate certain doctrinal ideas and so he's not doing exegesis in context okay that that's just not his thing he it's not why he's doing what he's doing and and in many cases the ability to do so is not present just because of the training that he had at the time you know we again it's not an issue of who's smart and who's smarter and who's dumb and all that kind of stuff it's what do you have access to and and what are you trying to do you know the Reformers Calvin look I'm not gonna write the Institutes of Christian religion you know I couldn't do that when I was 29 you know like Calvin could but the thing is I have access to mountains of material that Calvin never even knew existed such as translations of things from Egypt and Mesopotamia you know Canaan you gar it these are things that contextualize the content of the Bible that Calvin and these other guy they just had no idea the Dead Sea Scrolls I mean they have no access to information like this that helps us think the biblical writers thoughts after them so they did the best they could the Reformers and such with what they had and that's it's wonderful it it's serviceable it really means something but it's a different thing so the early church you can find it certainly in intertestamental Judaism you find it all over the place but you know that that's essentially what you're dealing with now that's not to say it never it never leaks out it does but but the Augustinian view like of Genesis six dominates the the Christian culture in his day and thereafter really until you know you start to get some of this comparative material and people start you know asking the obvious questions now if you were a Greek exegete working in New Testament G here's reference or Torah you know the plur and you know to Tartarus the English Bibles have hell ok Turner ah is a very specific verb Tartarus it's to be sent to Tartarus that's where the Titans were sent in in Greek you know stories and it's it's this it's the Greek version of the sons of God episode so if you were a classicist you knew that and you could do the math on that you know so it comes out you know in because of Greek material but you couldn't you couldn't ask you couldn't answer a question like what where you know how did this work how did we get from the ancient Near East to Greece over to Judaism and all that stuff like that you couldn't answer that question without the Dead Sea Scrolls which is mid 20th century so you know it kind of is what it is that's great no that's good content so she can do that so just to kind of contextualize everything for people who are watching you know we did an episode on the unseen realm really just talking about the angels and kind of the sons of God understanding they're in our second episode we talk about theosis and how in a sense we've been invited into that sonship where we are also invited to rule and reign with Christ in this already but not yet Kingdom and now we're going to talk about kind of the fallen system and how we're going to wage war on said fallen principalities those nations of God I should mention since we're going to talk about the bad guys here and we can talk about the three rebellions but the Genesis six is number two the third one with Deuteronomy 32 you will find church fathers track it on that yeah oh you will I actually paid two years ago I paid five or six people to go through the and run searches through and read the early church fathers material that was available in digital form up to about the 8th century and and you know just send me the data you know they're like in other words look for some what they do was saw many to look for a Deuteronomy 32 world view look for this them for that so I I have all that stuff I've just never done anything with it again I it's my space time continuum probably you know I again I don't have a data problem I just have a what do I do with the data problem and when can I do something with it but the Deuteronomy 32 worldview I think it's fair to say is more prominent in the thought of the Church Fathers then the Genesis six stuff it lasts longer it has it has a longer reach has a longer life let's put it that way what so tell us about the new book that's coming out in April I believe yeah demons the title is demons subtitle is what the Bible really says about the powers of darkness and that just like the angels book the subtitle was deliberately worded first where the title is for search angels but the subtitles are what matter you know what the Bayeux really says about the members of the heavenly host that I did it that way because not all members are the heavenly hosts or angels okay we just smash those terms together and that's just what happens same thing for demons not all the powers of darkness or demons they're that that's one sort of subset they're actually kind of low in the totem pole but the powers of darkness are quite variegated and so what what the unique contribution of the of that book is going to be is that now again I when I say this it's with respect to books that seminary students or laypeople who who really engage Scripture would buy there is no other book ever published on the powers of darkness that approaches the subject from the perspective of three rebellions Genesis 3 Genesis 6 Babel Genesis 11 Deuteronomy 32 that that that becomes the the guiding framework for how we not only talk about supernatural enemies of God in the Old Testament but it frames how we talk about them between the Testaments and in the New Testament that has never been done that's been done a lot in scholarship I mean I can I can direct you to all kind of journal articles and scholarly monographs you know for this but again for the for the pastor seminary student layperson you there's nothing like it and so that that is why I wanted to do it to try to introduce this this this paradigm or this paradigm is not the right word for it but essentially approach the subject the way scripture approaches it that in the primeval history we've got three three cataclysmic events that frame the entirety for who opposes God why God has opposed what the agenda is how it affects humanity all these questions that we deal with when it comes to evil so hit the highlights on the on the book or is that allowed or you're gonna wait for the book together no I can I can say what I want to about well you know if I wasn't yeah I can't remember if I do this in the book but I probably do but when I'm when I'm lecturing I'll say something like you know if you ask the average Christian hey why the world is why is the world such a mess you know why do we have all this evil and sin and depravity and suffering and all that you know what why the average answer you would get is that's the fall it's Genesis 3 if you ask the same question to a literate Israelite in a literate Second Temple June of this stuff okay read their own scriptures and and what you know the educated religious leaders are writing about the scriptures and that isn't the answer you would get they wouldn't say Genesis 3 and the conversation stops there they would say well you know there's actually three reasons why the world is such a mess you know evil rebellion enters the world of Genesis 3 that's for sure because we've got a supernatural rebel there we've got a humanity rebelling the results of that are terrible there's something about being human that you know leads us to sin and you know we're estranged from God we're all going to die now so we lost our immortality even is destroyed okay we get that but then there's this other thing happening in Genesis 6 1 through 4 really 1 through 5 that contributes directly to human depravity now I say 1 through 4 and then add verse 5 for a reason if you've ever Genesis six one through four it's the weird you know sons of God daughters and then nefeli in the passage and that the bad guys there are the sons of God so how in the world do we get from verses 1 through 4 to verse 5 and God saw that the wickedness of mankind was great upon the earth and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually there doesn't seem to be any relationship between the first four verses in verse five but if you know the original back story to Genesis 6:1 through four ie the up column story from Mesopotamia that the biblical writer is shooting at for theological purposes if you know what what his target is in the original story it makes complete sense it will answer the question of why in the Second Temple period you had Jews link Genesis 6 1 through 4 the sin of the Watchers or the sin of the son of sons of God with human depravity if you wanted to do a study of depravity and several scholars have in second temple Judaism they don't blame Adam for it they blame the influence of intelligent supernatural beings who taught humans basically how to destroy themselves more effectively and turn to idolatry and those bad guys are the sons of God from Genesis 6:1 through 4 now you don't get any of that in Genesis 6 1 through 4 because the writers assume that you know the backstory because they're writing to people who lived when they lived they're not writing to us so we have to recover that and the way that that has been possible is through work in Mesopotamian texts and seeing here's a key thought seeing where the content of those Mesopotamian texts was known in the Second Temple period among Jews like the Dead Sea Scrolls then realizing that oh this is why they're looking at it the way they're looking at it they knew this other backstory mm-hmm it makes sense now so when the fit and then the third rebellion is what happens at Babel that's the Deuteronomy 32 worldview those are the principalities and powers they are not demons the demons of the Gospels the demons of the Gospels are connected back to the Genesis 6 incident but again they're very low-level they turn people into flesh puppets you know big deal okay you know your Harmon and harass people but the the principalities and the powers the fall and sons of God to whom the nations were assigned at Babel and who are the princes of Daniel 10 these are the bigger players the this is the more epic problem because they control most of the world the Gentile nations because they've been judged by God and it's up to Israel who fails miserably to be a conduit of blessing for them to come back to the true God I mean this those three things framed the entirety of the rest of the Bible so let's let's do that let's talk about the the ontological difference between demonic spirits and the sons of God so you would say the the demons which people are probably the most interested in unfortunately the lowest the lowest tier of demonic powers are the scariest I mean you said meat puppets no we're made of flesh so some people say flesh puppets like yeah sure big principalities sounds scary but later on in the show I'd like to know how this flesh is out literally pun intended right yeah well you know what you have is again there's we worry about those Amiens stuff people can people can read unseen realm to get a little glimpse of that the OP kalos story but the demons book really drills down on a traversing herrmann which is another book I did drills down on it as well but what you have is all the Jewish traditions are in agreement here where you've got the sons of God ie the watchers you know which is an Aramaic term found in Daniel 4 but it's more it's used more prevalently in the Second Temple period they you know transgress the boundary between heaven and earth they father these Nephilim okay that much we have in the Genesis 6 1 through 4 passage in Jewish these are not principalities these are not the principalities and powers the principalities and powers are geographical entities that rule the nations that's gonna come later in Babel okay same term a different group different group because sons of God is a term of hierarchy used for members of the heavenly host to operate at a certain level they have a certain status okay so all Jewish traditions agree that what happened then is you know God decides well you know we got it we're gonna send the flood we're gonna cleanse the earth you know all this problem and it's not just you know the sons of God because the other thing that the sons of God do is they teach people certain things like the art of warfare arts of seduction astrology idolatry fart you know pharmacopoeia you ever ask yourself why would Paul connect demonic activity with drugs well it's this is part of the tradition it goes all the way back to the Second Temple period where these are things that that the you have to think think of it this way that supernatural beings have a greater intelligence about what goes on just generally in the spirit world they know what what but the fabric of creation is is about because again if you read Jewish text you know that different supernatural beings are tasked with different sort of knowledge bases you know different areas of expertise or guardianship that you're not supposed to let humans learn this or that thing okay you're not supposed to you know have certain access to certain knowledge well again in both in the OP collar story and then in in the second temple Jewish you know telling her the story that draws upon Genesis six as well the sons of God not only come and transgress you know the the battery between heaven and earth to Pacifica Lee raise up imagers for themselves in other words other people groups who would oppose Yahweh's people that we see in the Old Testament with the giant clans but they also teach humanity again how to destroy themselves or effectively because humans are the enemy they also teach you know people about themselves they want they solicit people to worship them to turn hearts you know toward idolatry and away from the true God again have you ever wondered biblically speaking why everybody's who sort of knows about the true God by the time you get to Genesis 11 now we have idolaters with Abraham's parents what does that happen like like what happened there and there's there's like nothing else in the story well yes there is it's just the writer is presuming a certain knowledge base so the Genesis 6 stuff directly contributes to the depravity of people now God says we got to send the flood we got a you know do something with this and again that much we're familiar with because of Genesis 6 verse 5 and so that doesn't sound far into our ears but along with that you know sending the flood for that reason we also have to get rid of these Giants all right we have to take care of all these problems and so that's what precipitates the flood now in the Jewish mind when you killed when either one of the Archangels they get sent to you know do battle with with the big bad guys the Nephilim when one of them was killed by the flood or some other means their disembodied spirit became known as a demon or a bastard spirit which is a phrase used in Dead Sea Scrolls and you get hints of it in the New Testament and also unclean spirit there's actually a whole dissertation on where does the phrase unclean spirits come from they're they're called unclean not because they get their hands dirty because they do you know a hijack it's not why they're unclean they didn't think minute either right they didn't use the right hand sanitizer okay why are things called unclean in the Old Testament if you ask yourself that question there are a number of reasons one of them is forbidden mixture okay that is what we're dealing with here with unclean spirits they are the product of forbidden unions this language does show up in the Gospels along with you know like look bastard spear that's what they are you know they're they're a mixture okay so all of these terms are attributed to two demonic entities those entities that are now disembodied the original offending sons of God in all the traditions including the New Testament Peter and Jude are punished by sending them to the abyss until the time of the end this is why P what Peter alludes to about the angels that sinned being sent to hell or Tartarus or whatever you know all that sort of stuff so that's where they are first Peter 3 you know reaching to the spirits in prison and all that kind of stuff so that much we have you know we just don't have the whole picture you know the New Testament but you get the the the origin of demons is there the disembodied spirits of the Dead nefeli that's why they seek re embodiment that's why they possess they want to be reimburse of it believe it or not in the Old Testament where well you have to realize that the term refa aim in the Old Testament was not like in Canaanite literature that term was just used of great warriors of renown like like deity quasi deity Kings you know and in the different populations like a guard or Mesopotamia or whatever ref I aim in the Bible is used for those guys that's isaiah 14 language but it's also used of guys that inhabit Sheol the under isaiah 14 does that as well Ezekiel 32 you know there's a handful of passages that have the ref I am in hell okay I mean in the underworld this is where they live this is this is their domain this is where they belong just like where we would think of the New Testament this is where demons live right they come out they pop out they possess some people for a while then they get punished and go back or whatever this is you know this idea that you find in the New Testament that basically never gets examined maybe people asked you know where demons come from but nobody seems to have an answer because they haven't read all this other literature again a second temple Jewish school I mean they they would have an answer for this but but that's what a demon is and it's some of this is reflected in you know some of the things Jesus says or what happens in some of these encounters and whatnot some of the vocabulary but there's those are different than the principalities and powers those are the sons of God who transgress in the wake of the Babel event I I still do not believe that when God appoints the sons of God and assigns them to the nation's at Babel I I don't think that they're bad guys then I think that they are just normal members of the heavenly host and for some reason they like their freewill being so that's part of it some become bad some bad well what what they do you have to look at Psalm 82 and ask yourself why is God angry with them and it's very clear why God is angry with them because they sow chaos among the nations Deuteronomy 32 a few verses after you know verses eight nine has the territorial entities the shady which unfortunately English Bibles translate as demons the term is of territorial entity which makes perfect sense because of the sons of God thing Deuteronomy 32 world view but they seduce the Israelites into worshipping them so they they are willing to have people not worship the Most High but to worship them God still wants humans ruled justly even though there they don't have the law they're not the sons of Abraham there you know why would why would God care about them two reasons one they're human imagers they're still in the image of God and second they've been included in the Covenant made with Abraham it's Israel's job to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation to be a light that that beckons them back into the fold you know to to turn their back on these other gods and worship the Most High so from a very early time period this is not going well the the they enslave their populations they sow chaos among the nations they turn their hearts to idolatry by the time you get to Daniel 10 you know that's where you get the Prince of Courage of Prince of Greece in other words look just look at that everybody knows about this passage does anybody ask hey where did we get this idea that their supernatural intelligence is called princes over the nation's we're got come from it's like nobody asks the question it's an obvious question and if anybody in church probably you know whatever ask the question unless you've come across Deuteronomy 32 eight nine you have no answer yeah okay it's just that simple you don't have any answer again an ancient person would know exactly how to parse that question so without even blinking they would get it but but you get them you get the princes and and then that language you know becomes part of Paul's vocabulary to describe the principalities rulers dominions Thrones all that stuff which are all geographical dominion terms so that I mean and even that factors into other points of New Testament theology Pentecost the New Eden I mean it's once you see it it just it just extends out into other things that that again this is and this is what unseen realm does again it's not an end point it's a beginning point but you begin to see how all these concepts in these passages how they interlink with one another and so when I want you know when I get pushed back you know from scholars it's like you know Genesis six or look I know it looks to you like you've got a really workable interpretation Genesis six ruler marriage is the Seth i'ts or whatever and look it's wonderful you know and you know to be honest with you I'm not looking I'm not saying that the mote that the best interpretation is the most supernatural one but here's what I am saying the best interpretation is the one that not only works right here it works everywhere else that this passage hooks into and yours doesn't mm-hmm okay that is where I'm going with this I want comprehensive coherence I don't want an interpretation that just makes that just looks like it works so now we don't have to think about the passage anymore because this passage is going to service other passages and if your view doesn't help there doesn't work and even contradicts you have the problem I don't okay so you just have to sort of deal with that and live with it and I know why people are uncomfortable with it you know the supernatural via Genesis six I was there for many years I get it I understand it but at the end of the day it's like ancient people and you know thought about this entirely differently and for me it has become kind of an issue of biblical authority that that I need to honor what these people are saying especially under inspiration like Peter and Jude do I have the right to say Peter and Jude were wrong I don't think I do good so so let me cut a couple things tournament you for clarifications you would say something to the effect of Genesis had a the author of Genesis had a purpose an intention in mind to communicate a story other than sin outlandish proposition as a writer said purpose yes crazy talk but of his of his purpose his intention of writing the sons of God section wasn't a part of that that plan he was trying to track the seed of the woman he was trying to explain the nature of man to explain why they're captivated in Egypt so forth and so on you would say that that seems to be a contrary to the sons of God language and that that sons of God language can be found elsewhere we talk about the angels and the demons the the angels the sons of God seemed to be principalities who so you know we see in Jesus that someone is sown in the field and the wheat the tares are growing up together so so these these principalities seem to have more influence and control when we talk about demons or would you suggest that the primary difference between demonic forces and angelic forces that are that are both fallen that the demonic forces seem to afflict to demonize to wound to her bruise whereas these other forces seem organized that are able to teach and I think that's one yeah let's take the last part first I think that's one difference again if demons are the disembodied spirits of the dead Nephilim they are somewhat lesser you know in terms of being derivative of ontology or contingent you know intelligibly speaking yeah so they would they would sort of be lower on the pecking order even it and it's because they were at one time imprisoned they were embodied and there's this there's this notion it's drawn from Psalm eight and a few other passages about you know when humans are described as being created a little lesser a little lower than the elohim in psalm eight you know again it's another reference to elohim just as a general term you would use for divine beings the reason that they're deemed lower or lesser is because they're embodied they have limitations and so in if we're if we were discussing powers of darkness ontology demons would be a little lower on the pecking order for that reason there's still spirit beings but they were at one point lesser because of their embodiment but that that would be to them their natural estate you know so the thinking was again within from antiquity on onward now I mean this isn't you know new to just you know some modern thinkers that the reason they they possess is because this is their natural estate and this is what they want to return to this is this is normal for them if we could put it that way but the other ones were never under such limitations they are in their minds you know by definition the ones who would be above humans you know in Psalm 8 by virtue of Psalm 8 that kind of thought that kind of thinking this is actually a significant thing to discuss because of the Incarnation I mean we know it's a demotion okay yeah we get it but it's also a demotion in the eyes of the spirit world as well you know this this is a an intentional delimiting of who you are and really it's a condescending thing to do you know I think we can get some good preaching fodder out of that just because again it it's just a little bit of it's an added nuance to what we already know you know about the Incarnation but but this is something that ripples through a theology of the supernatural world you know in early Judaism and whatnot this is why some again some Jews would have stumbled at the thought that the Messiah you know God would become a man how does that make any sense again and we and we could we could pick at them and say well look in your Old Testament God comes as a man there but you know that well that's not incarnation though this is this is a little more serious a little more offensive you know so again there's this kind of thing going on it'sit's an undercurrent you know to the discussion so there's that difference I think there's also a difference in in what they wind up in terms of the the sons of God of the Babel event they were originally tasked to rule the nations they had that authority in a given to them by the most high and they abused it they distorted and abused it and turn it to their own their own benefit they do not Shepherd humanity the way God wants human shepherds shepherded and they solicit and accept worship that belongs only to the Most High so they had a specifically significant status from the get-go now that is nullified in the New Testament you know this is why Paul half a dozen passages he links the nullification of authority of the principalities powers the rulers of the Thrones etc with the resurrection and the Ascension he does that intentionally again that's odd to us because when we think about resurrection we think about self-improvement oh I get a new body I don't not going to be this any more I'm not going to be sick or I'm gonna be better than I am now and all that's true but again it why doesn't times Paul thinks that thinks about resurrection then his mind goes over here to the Nullification the stripping away of the authority of the principalities why would he think that you know it's because the Most High who set up that authority arrangement has stripped away their that authority by becoming a man fulfilling all the covenants dying on a cross rising again and ascending to the right hand to power all authority is given to him this is the missing verse in the Great Commission we think Matthew 28:19 hey there's verse 18 all authority is given unto me in heaven and on earth okay so he takes back the authority over the nation's the Most High says hey you know yeah I gave you guys Authority at one time but guess what kiss that goodbye because now you know I am here to restore and reclaim the nation's so the guy who gave you the authority has just taken it away out of curiosity is does that also play into the already and not yet like it Hebrews says that all things has been subject underneath feet and yet we don't see yet all subject absolutely already but not yet is an important thread not only in that but some of these other things you know I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven isn't already but not yet thing that that statement is not referring back to Genesis 3 because the rebel was already cast down okay it refers to you know that since it's set in conjunction with I guess just just get the imagery here it's just casting out demons right casting out demons sending out the 70 or 72 depending on confuse the Septuagint of the Masoretic text but it all refers to the same thing Genesis 10 Deuteronomy so you got the casting out of demons you've got the sending out of the 70 and the announcement of what the kingdom of God has come among you so the whole point was I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven is in effect to say the kingdom of God the King does this back to Eden and if you were king the Lord of the Dead remember what Genesis 3 caused estrangement from God and the loss of Mort of immortality if you are a member of this kingdom that dude has no power and authority over you at all okay so he doesn't need to even show up anymore and accuse the Brethren God doesn't mean he won't try but he's got he's a he's a prosecutor without a case he's got nothing to stand on if you are a member of this kingdom which means you're a member of Christ's body which is a concept that expresses it later the same thought just expressed in a different metaphor this guy has nothing because you're gonna rise from the dead there goes the Lord of the Dead thing this is you okay you know you're never you're not gonna end up in Sheol you're not gonna be obedient to him he's got he means nothing he's nothing he has no authority at all and this is you know when Paul goes into a Gentile territory I don't know if I ever told you guys about did you ever hear that I've mentioned it a couple on a couple of interviews the time I got invited to a pagan podcast no okay can I get an email one day and it it's you know hey I read your book supernatural and I'm really excited about it I have a podcast can you come on my show and it's signed Hercules that should have been the first red flag right so it's like would you get an email from Hercules I sign all my emails to my wife Hercules so I email this guy back and and it's like he's like yeah he goes because he said I I'm the pagan and I worship the gods of Greece and Rome he goes but this is gonna sound funny because nobody really understands me it's like here's a guy I could actually have a conversation with you please come on my show you know so I said it's awesome this will be fine you know so I go in this guy's show I've been up and I've been on twice you know I go on his show and the first like five minutes is this guy going through all these greco-roman religious texts that particularly the Deuteronomy 32 worldview now I'd only ever seen one life like Plato Plato has passages about how the gods assign people's over you know to different gods and basically you worship the god you worship because this is your allotment this is your assignment the bigger gods just sort of lay all this out you know like this is why there's boundaries and turf wars and all that stuff so he's going through these texts and I'm like hey this is so cool you're like I'm learning something here you know and he gets to the end of it he goes because this is why I was so exciting is because this is the same worldview that's in the Bible he goes it's the same thing I'm like yep and he goes I have one question I got one question he said now if the God of the Bible set this whole thing up what does he want what does he want like what's the point and I said oh I'm so glad you asked basically I'm taking over the rest it's like I got to go through you know the whole thing I said you know I went through the whole thing about Deuteronomy 30 your world view of the covenant with Abraham and the conduit to the nation's the kingdom of priests the Messiah the whole bit you know I said now when Paul walked into a Gentile community he knows exactly what they're thinking you just read it on your podcast he knows that they know or they believe that they cannot turn from their gods and listen to this idiot Paul that's a popular thing in Indian religions right like it's it's Indian religion you know Native American stuff it's just everywhere it's everywhere and so I like like I yeah I said so what what Paul's doing Paul would have gotten the same question you asked me like every day you know like what are we supposed to do here and in Paul's answers look the most high is the one who set this thing up and the most high is the one who became a man died across rose again for you and so the Most High has the authority to change the rules you don't need to fear lesser gods hmm in fact the Most High who created you not only says it's okay to come back home but he demands it that's really powerful that there are it's just awesome like I tell you the best part about being on this guy's show was the commercial breaks yeah commercial breaks like you get on you know and you're right in the middle of some big right know the gospel and at this voice deep dark sinister voice comes on says you're listening to the pagan podcast network so so this actually this is beautiful because like I remember stories I mean I've never been to India to do missions but I've heard stories of my pastor friends who go over there and they'll say oh I can't stop worshiping my god like they'll kill me if I stop worshipping my god and this actually this actually brings the gospel into their context to say oh yes this God took over he rebelled against the supreme god creator of all of these lesser deities these these lesser elohim z-- god has he admitted them he created them and they were bailed against him and this gospel is delivering you from the power and authority that this thing has over you and actually I mean that I mean light bulbs are kind of clicking for me this is speakings truth - lies yeah it's it's liberating them in their context and not like this new thing it's not like this uh this doesn't make any sense it's like no there's a spirit that rules over us we you see look at that end at that Indian person say I believe ya again I'm not denying that that you're under a threat here I'm not denying the reality of your gods but but let's think about them a little bit more actually because that spiritual content they are confrontation I was in India last December actually right around this time and was speaking to several audiences and going into the homes of several high caste Hindus and sharing this exact information with them and it was like nobody had shared it with them that's the crazy part is they heard from missionaries in the past but nobody would share hey ask yourself ask yourself why okay how many is my own story look it wasn't until I was a doctoral student that I came across Deuteronomy 32 8 in the Dead Sea Scrolls because everywhere else it's like when the Most High divided the nation's he divided them up according the number of the sons of Israel like there's nothing to see there but when it says sons of God you divide them up court of the sons of God and then you start reading and it takes you back to Deuteronomy 4:19 and 20 where it uses a lot men language the God's allotted to the nations and Yahweh takes Israel for his own and then you go to Deuteronomy 17 and you go to Deuteronomy 29 and you wind up in Deuteronomy 32 again it's like I don't want to miss this I want you to talk about so today for for the average believer who's fulfilling the Great Commission that's just like the 70 or 72 depending on which version you're using is going out into the world to share the gospel and I'm I'm guessing the way this flesh is out is that we should be doing the exact same things that we cast out demons that we're proclaiming the the good news about the kingdom of heaven coming and it overcoming the power of the enemy help me out more all right you know I would the short answers yeah yeah you know there's no reason to suspect you know that that we're not living in the same world even though the West the modern West doesn't recognize it the world hasn't changed it is still under dominion whether we believe it or see it or care about it or pay any attention to it or not what I tell people because I get to ask you well what you know what should I do if I run into this situation or demons or something it's like look you remember who the authority really is yes you know you've but you've been granted the status as one of the children of God to function as God's imager and those who are redeemed you know are the ones who are actually capable of doing that in a fallen world and Jesus did say that that you would and could do these things but you always have to remember who the actual authority is you never trust in yourself you never appeal to your own authority and what you do just generally is speak truth to lies if you are deeply informed about things that that this entity knows okay because that they know what the story is all right they know what the story is they know all about the Deuteronomy 32 world okay they know all about you know the hunger for embodiment they know all about this history and it's like look I you know you need to be reminded that you have no authority here you are dust this is your destiny as X Y Z and you know it and basically you know you you know stop what you're doing here your punishments gonna be even more severe God knows exactly what your situation is you know what your situation is you've no authority here you have to if to use scripture you have to use truth you have to speak truth to lies and that I think the easier examples are or the sock puppet thing because they're they're just used to you know that that's to harm people we're gonna make people suffer in some way it's a lot more difficult when people have been sort of trained to think a certain way that is very Antichrist you know with with lots of basically false or just terrible information you know about the truth whether just you have to sort of reprogram them essentially you know the way they they think but at the end of the day you speak truth two lives you never speak in your own authority you know you speak in the name of the Lord's Authority and and I I'm here because he has granted me you know this this authority I'm not doing this on my own you know and you have these confrontations I think I mean I know people who've had these sorts of things happen I never have but that they I mean what I'm transmitting to you I'm getting from them as far as the things that they have found to be the most effective it's not a shouting match you don't have to memorize incantations and spells right okay you speak truth to lies and and that's what's going to liberate people regardless of how they're being held or in what manner they're being held at the end of the day that that is what they need that's the thing that the Spirit of God will use to to unlock their minds so I mean that that to me is what spiritual warfare is spiritual warfare is fundamentally the conflict between two kingdoms it's not we go into a house and shout at demons or you know perform rituals or whatever it's like look as one Kingdom grows the other one diminishes ask yourself what are they afraid of what they're afraid of is their destiny you know I get asked well do they think they can win look it depends how you define victory do they they know who God is yeah do they think they can beat God probably not okay so so what are they doing well God has linked the end of days which is their final destination their final destiny to this thing called the fullness of the Gentiles ie the Great Commission the fullness of the Gentiles yeah granted only God knows when that is fulfilled when that's up but that's linked to the revival the reawakening of Israel and then the end will come so if they can forestall this is this a spirit you know spiritual warfare for them if they can impede the Great Commission if they can forestall the fullness of the Gentiles they can go on indefinitely that's the game plan it's not complicated it's actually in Scripture if you really think about it and so frankly they're pretty effective at that honestly they are so spiritual warfare that the getting to the heart of what they fear is fulfillment of the Great Commission that that's the end that that spells the end so the more we can do to you know free the captive you know free people who are in spiritual bondage the better one Kingdom grows the other one declines I'm gonna let Michael ask our next question here but before I do that I mean what I love about what you're saying is that a lot of people who are not necessarily in a scholarly wage to talk about angels and demons are talking about angels and demons from a kind of self in grand izing sort of way you know I have the authority over the spirit or this and that or they're trying to speak things that they don't know not of you know not only that it puts so much focus on them what you're explaining right now is proclaiming the gospel trusting in Jesus but Nathan him in his authority and his power and and that anytime someone asked me about about you and your scholarship I always explained that to them okay like he is talking about Christ receiving the reward of his suffering he's receiving the back into his family and the Jew and Gentile alike into sonship and he's proclaiming the gospel in such a way that it defeats powers and principalities right God will have his way that's right in the end and you know again we can't lose sight of this a lot of people and I'm not gonna say that deliverance ministry traditional deliverance ministry never helps anybody but I know enough people who have left deliverance ministry and now do deliverance ministry differently mm-hmm to know that the other thing that it that sometimes happens maybe to off and then then we'd fib think about other God's know like I'm on you know what watch me handle this demon the other thing is when you give people assignments or if you just pray this prayer this many times if this long convoluted memorized saying incantations and spells because if it doesn't work then guess who's fault you get to say it is the victims you must have done something wrong you must not have enough faith look that isn't the issue Jesus actually delivered people from demons who weren't even believed it doesn't say they had faith at all in fact at least in one instance it says that they didn't he just does it okay here's what's true here's what ain't true you know it has nothing to do with with you know all Jesus could be a little stronger in this scene if you just believed a little bit more you know it but but this is but this is what we do to people yeah you cover our butts that's what we do and and that's what shouldn't be done you the strategy should be speak truth to lies no matter who they're coming from and that you know the Spirit of God will use that to unlock you know to to free captives he will it just it takes a lot of work takes a lot of commitment and we don't act in our own authority like like we're something special you know maybe maybe you could speak to to fasting and how Jesus speaks to this in the account after the Transfiguration he comes down Peter James and John were with them the disciples are trying to cast out a demon but they're arguing with the Pharisees and Sadducees about how they can't I don't know maybe one of those groups it might have been there I don't know if both of them were there and he said something to the effect of you know your disciples can't cast this one out how long has this boy been this way I think he was born this way I think the text says and then he cast the demon out and the disciples were like hey why couldn't we do this and his response was prayer and fasting do you have any insights or thoughts on that yeah I think I think that is about building up spiritual endurance and and trust I think that that's the whole purpose of you know really if you think about prayer you're you're you're learning to let God have his way you're learning to give credit where it's due you're expressing dependence okay and I the more you're sort of trained to do that I think that's the point of these sorts of episodes that we and fasting helps direct our attention away from food and assistance and more to again dependence on God which is again you know really the core of the prayer so I think that's really what Jesus has in mine it's submission and dependence this is this is what it takes it's not that I'm going to prayer and fast and hope the Spirit of God puts another incantation into my head that I can demand someone recite so you mentioned how some deliverance ministers they were ministering one way and then you know after getting a hold of your content now they're doing it differently and being more effective on some level can you explain what those differences are it's not a there's not a one-to-one correspondence like I wasn't the cause to that effect okay but there is there is a strong relationship too between the two you know on my on my podcast naked Bible podcast I think it's episode 68 I'm looking to burnin Audrey yeah Fernan Audrey you know they they were shifting out of deliverance ministry before I met them but when we did meet they got they got a lot of you know not in well I guess I'll have to say intellectual because it gave him a lot to think about but intellectual and and sort of Theological ammo that they had to process and think about and they began to implement that so so we we met each other sort of at the right time when they were transitioning out of what what they were doing and they had you know different reasons for doing that but I didn't I wasn't the one who launched that I just the Lord just sort of brought us together where I could help them know what to do next you know that kind of thing so um you and I talked about this once before but I'll share just a couple of experiences and maybe you can help me make sense of this so I had a lady who was practicing necromancy and clairvoyance II and she was demonized and when we talk about putting the blame on somebody or something like in this case I'm going well you're in open rebellion and sin and yeah you've got to walk away from that if you want to be free and remain free and in those cases you would think it's appropriate to put the onus ownership on there and that's that's the truth that's that's speaking the truth yes yeah and not not the whole Word of Faith thing we're like well if you believe it's right it's not that it's not that you turn it around and turn them give them a prescription for performance God will release them this is this is repentance so that this is still something they need to do but you've you've not turned it in performance based sort of thing that they could yeah a lot yeah and I think the deliverance ministry that I think we'd all speak with speak about with a little bit of a negative connotation and stereotype is those that want to put on a production and yell at something as though the power or the volume of their voice you know a power when that demon hears my voice he's scared yeah that person getting free so have you and I remember fern Audrey sharing the story one time where they were trying to help somebody and they weren't making much headway and I think I can't remember exactly on the story web something about how they weren't dealing with your normal type of disembodied evil spirit they were dealing with something higher tier and in that case that that was that was something fern did more out of exasperation but it it was actually it actually worked it was effective and that was again most of what they do I mean there are a number of individuals that they deal with that do have some sort of this kind of history and it has resulted in them believing certain things about God and about Jesus and about themselves that enslave them so there's a there's a demon istic element to a lot of it but they rarely run across what they would parse as a a possession or some like in the room oppression that kind of thing but this was one of those instances and she just got exasperated and quoted you know Jude from him you know though that but she used the word watch or the Lord rebuke you watcher and and it just stopped everything so that that's the instance you're thinking of yeah the episode yeah so I don't take Michael off of his train of thought here but Dawson who frequently does a lot of research for our show we're super thankful for him and his men tree with remnant radio he was asking about Second Temple Judaism and some of the the language about waterless places and water and demons the Second Temple Judaism speak to a lot of the someone that waterless I remember when they casted Jesus cast the demons out of the pigs there's that passage that seems rather vague to me but maybe you know what he's talking about yeah it I mean there there's a lot of interesting imagery there but just generally the desert wilderness is the place associated both in the Old Testament and of course Second Temple and New Testament with the powers of darkness and and death and destruction why because you can't live out there you know it's it's it's associated with death and deprivation you know and hardship you know the animals that live out there eat the flesh of other animals I mean it's just if you wanted if you want to sort of a quick study something like the dictionary of biblical imagery look up the the entry on wasteland and wilderness I think they're two separate engine entries but it'll it'll go through the biblical motifs of the desert wilderness metaphor and how they're associated with the the realm of the Dead the underworld the bad place that's why certain animals who live there are the names of those animals are used to describe demonic powers and vice versa it's just the association now you know it's no coincidence you know Jesus you know is confronted by Satan in the wilderness and he has other episodes you know associated with the wilderness or you know place that doesn't have water you know someplace that's thinking think of it as the Anti Eden the 180 degrees away from where God lives the paradise you get the idea so I mean that that metaphor is certainly operative in a number of these episodes you know when they're cast into the sea I find that interesting because the sea again is that is the major metaphor in the Old Testament for chaos in other words they go back to where they came from the pigs are cast this is where the demons go because they they're Kaos agents where else would they go you know Jesus gives them the option and they go home so that the metaphor and the imagery makes sense again if you if you kind of know what what the build-up to it is you know what these things mean in the in the consciousness of the of the reader and how its portrayed how these things are used elsewhere in Scripture Michael yeah anything man no I'm just listening I'm trying to apply this personally I'm just thinking myself cuz I've done a lot of traveling and I've encountered a lot of I mean really I call it spiritual warfare and people who are demonized you know the world is a little stranger than the the Western academic well yeah go to South Africa go to India especially where there's a lot of idol worship let me share this with you this this is something that encouraged me believe it or not I got it I got encouragement at the American Academy of religion meeting okay oh that's that's ever happened before because if you're familiar with aar that's like you can have your evangelicals there then you get your pagans that like to howl at the moon you know it's just like it's just weird I need anything that you can call religion so I see in the program that there's there's a woman who's having her book reviewed and it's it's part of the Christian theological research something but again it's a AR so I'm thinking yeah a Christian like real Christian or like some some like weird you know weird thing that calls itself Christian but the title of the book is what got me in the room it was the woman's name is Esther Alcala say she's African and it's principalities powers and the devil and the subtitle is biblical realism which is her way of saying recovering the supernatural world biblical realism and the West so I what I hope for honest I was hoping for a food fight I'm gonna go in there it just be a fly on the wall because I don't know this woman I'm not going to know anybody in here see hey our crowd you know but I was hoping that that these academics would go in there and review her book at home we can't believe it and then she'd look at them and say what is wrong with you people that's what I was hoping to see but instead everybody in the room everybody's talking about Bart you know all these neo-orthodoxy legends what would Bart say what would this guy you know but it but the whole thing and at the end they're like you know what you're right the Bible actually does affirm this worldview and the church in the West has lost it what do we do about that and I and I'm sitting there thinking well you could start with owning the fact that your own theology has contributed to the problem your own theological compromise but I didn't say that I was good but it was it was actually encouraging because I went up to the woman afterwards and I said you and I are fellow travellers but you just don't know it yet and I said I I just want you to know and I showed her the Amazon page I had my iPad you know with an Amazon page for unseen realm I said I'm gonna send you one of these because what what I see here is that my audience is evangelical center - right and your audience is the evangelical left and the mainline denominations but we are hoping to see the same thing the recovery of the supernatural world view and she's like you know she's like yes so I don't really know anything about her other than it's like look and I told her about the pot she's flabbergasted it has a thousand reviews podcast I told her you know it's six million downloads I said look I'm telling you this for a reason because I want you to read the book and then if you're comfortable I said I will do whatever I can to help you win your audience back to this and she's like you know thank you for coming yeah I've got I've got her book pulled up I'm actually interested in have you ready I haven't rented yet I just got it but but there are people even I'm just think about this mainline denominations that that you and I are like in the evangelical where we think these people are just gone they're like unrecoverable they're especially if they're modern academics they you know they they don't believe this they they've convinced themselves that none of this is real and you know there's something going on over there you know that that they're starting to wonder like well how does all this stuff happened in Africa and it's like I know the person like sit here in the room because Esther's like yeah you know sometimes you just have to cast out demons just just part of the day yeah I did some laundry I cooked for family demons out ah no big deal but but she xanax used to teach it Duke she's got a PhD Wow she's a member of this camp yeah okay but her experience as an African it's just diametrically oppositional to their worldview so she's like the Bible world views my worldview not yours hello is she being taken seriously there oh yeah so so what I've got a question is it was I never thought I would see that in the room there really there about 30 people in there the other thing that freaked me out but there was there were two people in there who listen to the podcast my podcast I mean I didn't say that but it was like you know I just had no idea that's cool so so a popular question that comes up special about the demonology stuff is is about Christians and what kind of authority we have a you how much influence can demonic forces have in a Christians life you know we see in Scripture me and Michael have gone back and forth on this Michael Miller who's on the other side have gone back me over here about about how much demonization can take place in a Krish life how much can they be afflicted can they be possessed and those words can they be a full-on flesh puppet yeah I the line I draw is I don't think believers can be owned I use the word owned because they are residents of the kingdom of God they are part of the body of Christ they have they are in Christ I mean all these metaphors I don't think I don't think that a believer can be owned how we would if this is even possible distinguish between possession and serious oppression I'm not sure how we would make that distinction at the end of the day if we're trying to help that person it probably isn't much help if we have to sit down and noodle that the treatment is still gonna be the same okay yeah so all right but I do not believe that believers can be owned because they belong to the Lord so you know anything up to that point I think that that's very possible for believers and in part I think that because of the way we are afflicted by human evil sure there doesn't seem to be any limitations there it's a great way to it's good language to describe it I think that's and that's it I think that's where me and Michael have kind of come to possess some level of agreement because like one thing that every Christian should be able to agree on is that if anyone is oppressed we want them to be free right so like on any level whether that is we're kind of some kind of stronghold in their mind some kind of disbelief some wrong belief that has been influenced like like with people I don't know if I'm a Christian or did I lose my salvation or did I really was I really a Christian two years ago look it doesn't really matter and trust him now yeah the answer is the same yeah here's the gospel do believe it yeah do you believe what what I mean that's that's gold I mean Michael you got anything else man I mean that sounds like a a good night a lot of other questions but none that really relate to this episode excellent I'm really glad to again to be reminded that there are believers out there who you know run into this stuff and have the you you know again I think we all know where I'm at here and you guys are there too you know experience does not Trump scripture but experience experience can be really valuable it's especially in an area like this you know you guys are gonna know that the world really is different than the way the average evangelical academic wants it to be doesn't feel comfortable affirming that well you guys don't really have any choice so that's good that's a good thing well we appreciate you coming on it is an honor to have you every time we have you it's always a joy we have so much fun with you I really enjoyed this episode are able to laugh a lot which it's good to laugh about something like this yes yeah Michael thanks for coming on Michael Miller I appreciate you man thanks for coming back to the show we'll see you actually I think next week you're gonna be back you me might do an episode on spiritualizing scripture it would be fun yeah we have dr. Michael Brown coming hard to hear in the near future dr. Brown will be talking about miraculous divine healing how that plays out in Scripture he wrote a book which is kind of expounding on Israel's delight dealer which is his dissertation Mike yeah Mike is actually coming on I'm filming him tomorrow okay this is Providence okay so you tell him I said hi will do ed Rhema and remind him he needs to turn in the blurb for my demons book okay yeah I will I know he loves your ministry so we spent time with him up in where were we Michael Ouma City yeah at Oklahoma City at convergence so yeah so I'll let him know I'm sure you do that give him a little needle for me there's a little pride sure you think and then we've got an episode coming out here in the near future with an Andrew Wilson from the UK he did an episode with us on the sacraments I mean Michael film that that's probably gonna release sometime around Christmas on a Monday so good stuff coming down the pipe and January me talking about evangelism I've got a couple different guys from different camps coming on to talk about the gospel and evangelism how we flesh that out in the day to day so it's gonna be some good stuff like I said it's an honor to have you on and we enjoy your content looking forward to that book that you really soon what is it release out of curiosity they have it at the end of April okay april-ish is what we're gonna get so we'll see you guys next time Monday night 8:30 p.m. Central Standard Time got some really cool episodes coming out and we'll see you next time be blessed hey guys Joshua Lewis here the video you're about to watch is a production from the remnant Radio remnant radio is a theology broadcast and we have pastors teachers and theologians from various churches and denominations to come on the show to discuss a wide range of theological topics many of our guests we agree with and many of our guests we disagree with but overall our goal is to understand the Scriptures more thoroughly so that we can understand the God who has given us his word so we invite you into this conversation we hope this video is edifying and uplifting to you if you've been encouraged or uplifted by this ministry we would ask please help us create free content that we can bless the larger evangelical community with go to our website at the remnant radio.com you can donate there and help us empower the body of Christ thank you

Channel: The Remnant Radio

Views: 279,825

Keywords: Demons and Evil Spirits, Dr. Michael Heiser, Michael Heiser, satan, demon, the satan, evil, evil spirit, fallen spirits, spiritual beings, rulers of darkness, demonology, angelology, sons of God, sons of god michael heiser, demons michael heiser, satan michael heiser, demonology michael heiser, doctrine of demons, Doctrine of demons, doctrine of demons scripture, unseen realm michael heiser, unseen realm, Spiritual warfare, Spiritual warfare michael heiser

Id: mw3Tu3QjWuk

Length: 81min 53sec (4913 seconds)

Published: Mon Dec 09 2019