Do We Become Gods? A look at Theosis with Dr. Michael Heiser

hey guys Joshua Lewis here the video you're about to watch is a production from the remnant Radio remnant radio is a theology broadcast and we have pastors teachers and theologians from various churches and denominations to come on the show to discuss a wide range of theological topics many of our guests we agree with and many of our guests we disagree with but overall our goal is to understand the Scriptures more thoroughly so that we can understand the God who has given us his word so we invite you into this conversation we hope this video is edifying and uplifting to you if you've been encouraged or uplifted by this ministry we would ask please help us create free content that we can bless the larger evangelical community with go to our website at the remnant radio.com you can donate there and help us empower the body of Christ thank you so much be blessed everybody this is Joshua Lewis with Runet radio I thank you so much for tuning in today we've got an exciting episode for you we're dialoguing about theosis with dr. Michael Heizer we've had dr. Heiser on previously on another episode we talked about the unseen realm what one of his first books one of the first books I've ever read anyway and it was a really really great introduction to the dialogue of the sons of God and Elohim and understanding kind of the the divine dialogue that we see in that Deuteronomy 32 worldview if you haven't watched it you can go ahead and go back and watch that video if you're watching the live stream stay with us I'll drop the link in the description of this video so you can go back and watch that one I'll also probably drop a link above we're gonna be dialoguing today about the doctrine of theosis but before we get into that dialogue dr. Heiser can we get a little bit about you and your ministry for those who might not be familiar with you sure for the last 15 years I was scholar in residence at Lagos Bible Software which is in Bellingham Washington that wasn't my only job title it was my most recent job title but been there almost 15 years I'm leaving we're actually moving in January to move to Florida so 3,000 miles away to do something something new in ministry the short version is I get my own school it sounds really crazy we're doing a two year really school of theology and ministry through a very large church network in Jacksonville Florida for those who who are somewhat familiar with me and wanted that would want to know why in the world would I do that leave Lagos you could go to naked Bible podcast comm it's episode 279 that will give you the story but I'm us i'm a biblical scholar by training I'm probably most known for the naked Bible podcast which we just we just hit our 300th episode I think it's been five or six years yeah it's probably going on six you know for that and unseen realm of course what you mentioned already which has done quite well it's shorter version is supernatural and a bunch of other books so that's kind of you know on the biblical side of things what I'm known for I also do fiction I have been sort of a trafficker in the fringe community fringe alternative worldview you know community things like ancient aliens for over 20 years so I'm kind of known for that as being the friendly Christian neighborhood deep bunker guy but debunkers a little harsh but you know you get the idea but we have a fringe pop channel it's a YouTube channel that where we sort of create a little 1520 minute response videos to all sorts of you know fringe topics you know was Jesus married to Mary Magdalene you know ancient aliens stuff all that so we try to have some fun with that but also provide good information I podcast on those subjects as well I'm just kind of all over the place so so if you move I need to know is the naked naked Bible podcast gonna stay alive yeah yeah they want me to do everything I do now it's just you know what I would essentially be doing you know for a living that's what's going to change you know I'll go back to teaching once the school starts you know I'll teach one night a week at least start it might be a little bit more than as things go forward but no they they want to encourage me to write and podcast and do the YouTube stuff so yeah nothing's gonna change as as far as I know yeah but yeah it's it's more or less just moving 3,000 years to do mostly the same stuff but the real key element is that they have they have the infrastructure and more importantly the intent the will to take what I would loosely call my content which is biblical theology and make it go global just they have they have satellite campuses in lots of different parts of the world so you've done lots of global stuff I mean you even read the Bible project recently right that's been very big impact I've seen some of their videos coming out recently and I just really enjoyed those that you've worked on yeah they're helped them they're huge you know they they do they just do wonderful stuff you know they do the kind of thing I wish I could do but I don't have a staff they do so you know Tim you know Tim I I knew very briefly from grad school because I I defended my dissertation during his first year Tim Mackie and he likes to tell the story of being my dissertation defense was his the first one he ever visited or saw and watched terrified him so good for him you hate in question so so for those who are watching I want to catch them up maybe a little bit what kind of the synapse a real briefly what we just dialogue in the first one and I know you've you've slept since last year so I'm sure there's not been exactly what we talked about but maybe we can summarize the idea of the sons of God and the Elohim concept just briefly sure so that we can dive into our dialogue today because I think would be helpful knowing that context yeah my again what I try to do just generally is I want to try to convince people who care about Scripture to read the Bible with the ancient Israelite in their head or the first century Jew in their head and that is the right context for interpreting the Bible is the context to produce the Bible you know under God's providence these are the people he picked living time they did their worldview the way they just looked at things there ancient people they're not moderns and so although all the things we're used to hearing in church you know some of it comes from the text description or a lot of it is mediated through tradition so I try to to get people to you know value the ancient context above everything else and if you do that you run into what I would call the divine council worldview you run into what I also called the Deuteronomy 32 worldview what that means is the Old Testament writers and Psalm 82 is sort of the starting point for this in unseen realm and my own sort of watershed experience as well where Psalm 82 makes it very clear and it's certainly not the only passage but once you see it in Psalm 82 you start seeing it everywhere that the biblical writers believe that the gods of the nations were real they were real entities there their spiritual beings they are lesser than the God of the Bible the God of Israel not just in terms of reputation but ontologically they are lesser beings they are contingent he is not and that rattles people because we're used to looking at the letters geo and D on a piece of paper or on a screen and because of our tradition we are we mentally default to the letters geo and D meaning you know being about a specific set of unique attributes that is not why biblical writers are using the term Elohim hello in Psalm 82 it reads in Hebrew you know Elohim it Sabadell Elohim is a very common term for God so in that in that first line of Psalm 82 it's singular because of the grammar it's a singular participle that is the predicator to Elohim so it's capital G God takes his stand in the divine council and then the next line is Beaucaire of Elohim yesh pote in the midst of the Elohim he passes judgment so you can't be in the midst of one we're talking about a group here so you have the God of the Bible if you read through the psalm he's railing they're having a meeting in the divine council that biblical term Psalm 82 1 the first stanza and he's railing on them and pronouncing judgment on them you get down to verse 6 he says I said to all of you plural plural pronoun you are God's Elohim sons plural of the Most High but nevertheless you're going to die like men and and this this is an eschatological judgment that God is rendering against the gods of the nations there's no hint that they're people there's no hint at their idols if you get over to Psalm 89 you have another divine council session they're the same sons of the Most High sons of God it's in this in the skies okay this is very clearly as a spiritual world kind of thing but you have multiple Elohim and so a biblical writer actually uses Elohim of a half a dozen different things other than the God of Israel so that tells you it's not about attributes because the biblical writers will deny certain attributes to all of their Elohim you know creator sovereignty omnipotence you know omniscience only the God of Israel has those things and so you have to ask ourselves what in the world is going on here because that sure sounds like a pantheon and what's going on is you would use Elohim to describe any entity that is by definition by nature a member of the disembodied spiritual world that's all they are so there's lots of those but only one of them is Yahweh of Israel he is species unique among the gods this is why the Bible says many times that Yahweh is the God of gods it actually means what it says the text means what it says you know they're not idols and non existent being so that that is important because when you get into why the world is in in biblical thought why the world is such a place filled with evil and sin and death you know all these all the suffering it's because in the biblical thought you have not just one reason not just Genesis 3 the fall for why the world is what it is but you have three you have three supernatural rebellions going on you've accompanied by human rebellions Genesis 3 is one that's you know the serpent Genesis 6 through for the sons of God and sons of God is just a term for Elohim they're actually called Elohim Psalm 82 Elohim sons of the Most High just look at the verse verse 6 right there it is point-blank this is who they are Psalm 89 again the term is sons of God there in the council and so this is another name for the members of the heavenly host and some of them Rebell then you have three episodes three incidents so Genesis 6 one through four is the second the last one is what happens at Babel and that's the key one because we know the story of the Tower of Babel but if you go over to Deuteronomy 32 here's the Deuteronomy 32 world you have in verse 8 again if you're reading that with ESV NLT and RSV because they use the Dead Sea scroll holes in their translations which all translations should but some of them bill it says when the Most High we know who that is it's not a brainteaser it's the God of the Bible God of Israel when the most high divide up the nations when he fixed their boundaries he divided them up according the number of the sons of God but Israel verse 9 is Yahweh's portion Jacob is his allotted inheritance if he traced that language through Deuteronomy what you what you come out with is God punished humanity at Babel he not only confused their languages and divided them up into nations the table of Nations in Genesis 10 which was the precursor to the Babel event but he assigned the nations to other members of the heavenly hosts and those are the guys in Psalm 82 that are getting railed at by God because God wants humans no matter if they if he's punishing them or not he wants them ruled justly why because they're his imagers humanity is special but that's not what the gods do it's not what these sons of gods do sons of God do instead in Deuteronomy 32 keep reading they seduce the Israelites to worshiping them instead of Yahweh in Psalm 82 they sow chaos among the nation's they of course turn the hearts of their people into idolatry and worshiping them instead of the true God and you have a big mess and this is this is what frames the entirety of the biblical worldview after Babel this is why God ever did more humanity he calls Abraham and says I'm gonna start over yeah I mean I'm gonna pick this one guy I'm gonna raise up another human family through him and it's and that's why the rest of the Bible is Israel against the nations Yahweh against the gods it it's it's part of what it's it's the back backdrop to Daniel 10 the princes supernatural princes of the nation's Persia and Greece where do they get where does Dan you'll get that he gets it from Deuteronomy 32 he gets it from about these these are Paul's principalities and powers rulers Thrones dominions all those terms are terms of geographical Dominion so it's not an accident so this is the biblical worldview and you know that's the bad side that's the Fallen side but what we're going to talk about tonight is really related to the good side of that because what God initially wanted with Eden we have plural plurals in Genesis 1:26 where God is speaking to the members of the heavenly hosts hey let's let us create humankind in our image and then when God when that creation actually happens it switches back to the singular so God created humanity as his image okay male and female he created them there's a reason why there's plurals and why there's singulars maybe we'll talk about that tonight but but the bottom line is what God wanted was a human family to coexist with his supernatural family the sons of God from job 38 that were around before the creation of the foundation of the world heaven comes to earth because when God creates humans they can't go to him so he comes to them God is going to inhabit the world he has made for them and he's going to enjoy them and he's gonna they're not only gonna be his kids but they're gonna be his partners in spreading his goodness and his rule to all other humans that extend from Adam and Eve be fruitful and multiply make the rest of the world like this wonderful place Eden and we're gonna enjoy it together God wants a family and he wants partners and it all blows up pretty quickly but God never gives up on the original plan and so but what salvation history in the Bible is ultimately about yes it's about redemption but ultimately it's about making humans what they should have been in Genesis and that is fit for sacred space fit to occupy the gods house fit to live with God this should be the most natural thing in the world and this was God's original design and so we're gonna talk about theosis which is the endpoint process of all that once you know human beings are redeemed you know through the work of Christ on the cross God become man's so that man can become god that's thatthen asia's his famous line it's not that we become Yahweh's you know we're not Mormons but it's that we become you know we are already partakers of the divine nature Peter tells us in his epistle but we will ultimately be made like Jesus we will be glorified to be as much like him as we can possibly be and be fit for his home in sacred space and God will have his way in the end Eden will be restored this is why the book of Revelation ends as a global Eden with God's children ruling over the nations who rules the nations now the Fallen sons of God Deuteronomy 32 we replace them we become the reconstituted Council we we fill the void created by these rebellions and that is our destiny and that is that's our that's our identity and our mission and our destiny all those things wrapped up in the one so that was a rather long introduction to know that but for people who are new you know Mike doesn't add anything to Scripture but but there are a lot of familiar things in Scripture familiar verses that require a framework to understand what in the world is this talking about and we have our our churches are filled with with lots of people who have a good amount of data in their heads you know at least I hope so because they shouldn't be being taught in church but they have a lot of data points in their head but they have no frame no there's nothing that helps them connect dots and that's what I was trying to do in unseen realm and basically everything I do I I'm a Dodd connector I want my operator symbols and maybe naive assumption that hey you know this Bible you know it ought to make sense yeah everything everything that's in there contributes to something it's a matrix of ideas that should make sense and the way you it starts to make sense is if you start to read it as an ancient person would not as a modern 21st century you know fill in the blank evangelical Catholic Methodist whatever it is you know sure so we have this this prepackaged notion that the term god when we hear the word they'll hurt the letter sounded out in English G ot God we think omnipresent omnipotent this this sovereign being whereas you're suggesting that the ancient Near Eastern culture when they heard the word God they heard divine being and then when they heard God of all gods they knew that was the supreme God of heaven and earth of everything the Creator God of all things Christian Christian theology you know let's say let's just start real simple Christian theism that that holds that the God of the Bible is is unique there's only one of those that's correct but you don't get to that theology by virtue of the term Elohim there are lots of Elohim okay only one of them is the Bible and biblical writers Telegraph that he is unique by the way they they talk about him in a you know the way they describe him they with all these things you know the omniscience the omnipotence the sovereignty the creatorship and they also deny those attributes to other Elohim so so the theology is is good and clear but it doesn't derive from the term Elohim you get to the theology by observing what the biblical writers say about this one and will refuse to say about other ones right and that's good so so when we talk about and I know those of you who are watching right now I'm seeing the comments section just kind of explode right yeah we could do part Acer takers of the divine nature and some of you guys don't like this okay so I see that you in the comments I see you there I'm present but it is you can tell I don't have a co-host here so I can't read the questions and like respond while hosting this interview as well as I usually people are some people are bothered I don't want to be flippant here but some people are bothered by by what the Bible is but but for some they're bothered by a term like theosis because their tradition doesn't use it when we see theosis you know filling up one that your tradition does use maybe something like glorification or think TIFF occasion or ultimate sanctification it's the same thing yeah we're talking about the same thing it's just the different traditions different you know figures Calvin Luther somebody from Eastern Orthodoxy Catholicism they they're observing versus like hey we become partakers of the divine nature or first John three hey we're gonna be like him like he is yeah so they're looking at these verses and they just use different terminology to try to describe what the verse is say so if your problem is the terminology I understand that but just realize you know it you know you use the term you like if your problem is the text of Scripture well there isn't much I can help you with yes so so if you want the long drawn out you know dialogue of this I think we're gonna kind of build a case and you can correct me if you think that there's a better line what we'll do is we'll kind of determined already the terms sons of God is a term that's applied to angelic beings now maybe this would be kind of in the old toast in the Old Testament right and in the New Testament it's different in the New Testament we have like Ephesians 1:5 Ephesians 3:20 Galatians four or five talking to us being adopted into the family as sons now now if we can say okay views seem to be Elohim they seem to be some kind of divine beings that are not God the God but are some kind of lesser you know beings that that rule and reign with Christ how are we invited into that in the present age are we are we ruling and reigning with him now or are we ruling and with reigning with him later are there other measures of that now measures of that later maybe you can hash that out with us and explain that role yeah it is a curious feature I think a significant one that you get sons of God language or children of God language that in the Old Testament is used for supernatural beings you know God's heavenly family will say in the New Testament it's very clearly used for God's human family in fact you don't get that terminology used in the New Testament for supernatural beings you just don't instead now it's it's humans you know and that's because the the supernatural family of God is actually a template for how God for what what God wanted humans to be and what God still wants humans to be he wants them to be part of his family unto rule and reign with him and this is every Christian tradition believes this literally every Christian tradition will affirm these things because they're so transparently taught in Scripture now as to your question how does that work now I think this is a this along with eschatology is probably the most obvious obvious examples of the what theologians like to refer to as the already but not yet paradigm that is there are there are passages in Scripture that refer to this being a present reality and there are other passages passages of Scripture that speak of this as a future both sides of this it says though from you know from our perspective you know we're still we're still trapped in a human body our ultimate destiny as believers is that we will get a body like Jesus head 1st Corinthians 15 this is the whole point you know we're still going to be an embodied but we will be like you know a a spiritual being that is on the spiritual plane where Jesus you know rules and reigns now but yet those beings are still described in embodiment terms even Jesus whether he's it's a scene in the heavens or a scene where he the resurrected Christ is on earth it doesn't matter the language of embodiment is still used and again with that what that means for us is that you know we have this body that were born with now that is still fallen it's unredeemed ok internally spiritually our our soul would however you want to describe this we have we're a new creation but we are a new creation that is trapped in an old body and the body has to be at redeems so we are in some way already what God wants us to be but in other ways we are not so we have this already but not yet thing going on that again scripture affirms both sides of that coin and so we need to talk about both sides we're we don't extrapolate from that things like oh well I guess as Christians you know we're sinless now or can be said like have you read the New Testament you know I mean almost every page you know is saying something about the believers struggle with you know the flesh the unredeemed body and and all that goes with it the patterns you know the the thought patterns and whatnot it this is all part of our our fallen embodiment we are new creations but we are trapped in the flesh it is the spirit that wars against you know the flesh wars against the soul of the spirit you know all these passages and they are what they are because we're in this sort of intermediate sort of trajectory of being already something but not yet that's something and scripture gives us this tension it's actually a really familiar tension in Scripture because you know in God's mind there's a realization of things that we have yet to experience and so that's part of why these things get expressed the way they do because you know God you know is on a mission to redeem you know as many humans as he can he has linked the return of the Lord and the end of days and the day of the Lord with with something called the fullness of the Gentiles which is a precursor and a trigger to the reawakening and Riaan grafting of Israel I mean they're all of these things are tied together and so it that this thing we call the kingdom of God over you know which we will reign in which we will exercise authority with Jesus as partners you know with him and with each other as ruling partners within his family that is something that is inexorably headed somewhere and we are part of that trajectory and journey but we are not there yet so again that that's good not not affirming anything that we we don't already know by experience but but Scripture I think scripture the the great thing about this is not that we sit here and be puzzled about the language because we know we sin and we struggle all that's true but I think if we really thought about it we might have a new sense of identity we might look around to people who you know are in the or in the body of Christ and look at them as fellow travelers you know with us that share the same identity we might look at people on the outside as images who are lost you know people who are supposed to be in here with us but they're not you know hence the Great Commission you know in other words there's there really is something to be said for how we think about ourselves and how we think about you know people who have you know embrace the gospel and people who still need to it's good it's all wrapped up in these concepts so as okay at the server when we're talking about like the Eastern Orthodox view right which we would typically use theosis or deification there many many as I'm reading the historical kind of definitions of Eastern Orthodox how how they describe deification or theosis when I read those things I just see sanctification everywhere right one of the passages that comes up frequently as I'm reading and trying to try to catch myself up on some history here as second Corinthians 3:18 and we all with unveiled faces beholding the glory of the Lord and being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another for this comes from the Lord who is the spirit 2nd Corinthians 3:18 so so there's this idea that the knowledge so eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ whom you sent right so it's like this knowledge of who God is transforms who we are and as we place faith in Christ that work is a renewing effect that's constantly you know Romans was like three twelve they're being transformed the renewing of your mind there's this there's this process of Christ working in us to produce his image that we could share with the world now now even and what you just explained there it sounded as if the the present age sanctification and the the future age glorification if we're going to use some of these terms the way the Protestants typically use them and then I know if you're in the Eastern Orthodox tradition or you're in the Roman Catholic tradition these terms might be a little bit different but but if there's this future glorification both of those then now and the then are both subordinate and in a much inferior way to God Himself and in in the way that the Eastern Orthodox people communicate this and I would love to hear your thoughts and the nuances of how you would kind of explain this they talk about a piece of metal like being in the fire right you leave it in there long enough and it begins to heat up if you even leave it in there really long it'll even begin to illuminate light like the attributes of the fire become the attributes of the metal but the metal itself never becomes the essence of the fire so we're not like adding persons to the Trinity we're not they're not not becoming gods in that nature how would you if you were to dialogue with someone that's kind of foreign to the idea or doctrine of theosis when you're communicating to them the nature of a person and how we're being transformed into this kind of divine image bear that's partaking of this divine nature but not becoming in ourselves that that view of divine how would you distinguish those things yeah I I don't I don't see I don't see an ontological transformation that culminates in erasing the creature creator distinction okay I think that's an it that's an important point and as you described it you know even Eastern Orthodoxy it's not going to violate that point you know it I think that in many cases the differences between the traditions are or maybe the analogies they use and how sort of how the how people can become you know I need to try to be a little bit careful here because I don't want anyone who's Eastern Orthodox to think that I think that they're Gnostic that isn't my point but essentially how we become aware of of where we're at in this process a that there is a process that that God does say this this this about humans you know believers so that I think their each tradition tries to approach again how this is known you know or and how people are made aware of these things and then how they how they respond again and they use different analogies I like the imaging terminology and I think it's deliberate in the New Testament to take us back to Genesis one imaging is just you know that's not the only language that the Old Testament uses it will actually link imaging to bearing the name like the commandment thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain the the word take there in English is actually the Hebrew in Nassau which means to lift up or bear or carry and we get this concept of of representation again imaging is representation it's mimicking it's miming it's it's being God's proxy again again however we want to express that their different ways to do that bearing the name again is is the same thing you are you know that the priestly blessing you know that that the Lord would set his name on you okay there's ownership there there's identification you know I think the best analogy for us is if I you know when I work for a company and I go out and I and I speak for the company I represent the company it's it's as though I am the company I'm not but it's as though I am because I'm I'm its proxy I I'm it's I'm its representation or a replacement or again whatever terminology helps in the eyes of others and this is how Israel was perceived this is how believers are perceived let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity the Apostles you know after they're beaten in acts 5 they go away rejoicing that they were worthy to suffer for the name it's another way of referring to God so the representation is is I think a really good way to look at it imitation you know being the reflection or the image you know there's a reason why Jesus is called the Express essentially the ultimate image of God you know he that has seen me has seen the father well it the Jesus point when he said when that said in John is not that oh here's what God looks like and he's got hair this long any of the style and no it's it's about character it's about again just its behavior its character its it's sort of a exact representation of the Father ginger right right how when when people encounter Jesus and got to know him they would know what God is like okay and that and this is the role we're supposed to play you know and and the verse you just read in 2nd Corinthians 3 it makes the same point if if we do this if we if we imitate Jesus this is discipleship okay if we imitate Jesus we will be more conformed to his image and he is the ultimate image of God and so by doing that we we are essentially on this trajectory to to go back and be the thing that God wanted us to be in the perfect environment of Eden when we were created anyway you know originally anyway you know God will have his way this is why everything is going you know forward into the past as it were you know back to eat so I lied it back to the teacher Ripoff yeah Eden yeah I I liked imaging and reflecting representation you know all all these terms I think you know have a you know help us nuance you know what it is how we should think about this but imitation is really helpful you know what would you know we've turned it anyone who tried expression what would Jesus do well it's still a question worth asking definitely you know how did he model you know but God you know and he reduces it to love God your fellow you know man you know all the law and the prophets hang on these two things and what you know why is that well we you know if we love God that that's our believing loyalty you know in the God of Israel we believe he is who he is and that he has decided he desires to be in covenant relationship with us and he has taken all the steps necessary to bring us back into his family that's right if we really believe that then we are the way we live will show it it'll show what we believe that's good so it will act like it so to quote some of the ancient church fathers that you actually mentioned at the beginning of the the program at the nation's fellig's Andria or Maximus the Confessor they both seem to make similar statements that God became man so that man could become God now I've seen these statements mimics copied altered in such ways to kind of make some abuses you know we see like you had mentioned the beginning of the ship as well Mormons also take these guys and look the early church fathers agree with us that the idea of of deification into the same essence of God so so what we've been talking up into this point is that the ontological er very nature stays that I don't say in nature stays the same because some of those those terms theologically can change but but but who we are ontologically at our essence that we are human and God as his essence is God and that was actually I think a finishes argument is that God was by essence divine and we are by adoption we are granted that so so so maybe maybe we should talk a little bit about where this kind of delves into heresy you know so in the way that yes it's good there's something that we have to look forward to that we are partakers of that divine nature now and then some later but also where does that become greatly imbalanced if it's taken to the wrong extreme yeah I think you know you see those kinds of things I mean yeah Mormonism you know it's really kind of odd because if you it's not the only thing that but sort of really sort of upend the whole system if you followed it to its los juegos trajectory but but here's one element because it in essence if everybody becomes you know Yahweh becomes the God of the Bible you know that they're all you know equivalent it does erase a creature creator distinction and and you're left with a conundrum that at the end of the road there still is a creator creature distinction in the way that the new earth you know the eternal state is described it's very clear and none of that's erased it's not all like absorbed into this amorphous you know personality less you know deity thing and now we're all part of this blob or whatever I mean there's still a very clear you know created creation distinction and so that is something that cannot be lost in any system without you know essentially just ignoring you know what would your suppose what you say you're defending and that is the Scriptures so you have that problem but I think even even more fundamentally you don't you don't have any any passage that eliminates the distinction between God and his creatures in terms of beings who are made like him you know you don't you never have that erasure you know made even even when we are you know I think a passages in Revelation where yeah Jesus does say I will give those who overcome I will give the give him or them the Morningstar that that's it's a reference to the Davidic right to rule I will set them over the nation's this is a revelation two and three language that's true okay but he doesn't say that that I will make them me the heat in other words he's still the one deciding to do that there's still a hierarchical you know balance there to be maintained so those are the more subtle kind of kind of wacky you know things that that you can really kind of go off off the deep end with I think more to them more to just kind of how people live you know on that level I think the idea of sinless perfection is is just a wrong road yeah go down here you know either the assumption that you can do this so that you have arrived and you'll see people within Christian traditions actually say both or either yeah which is is at the end of the day it's just pure manipulation you know of people that you want to have authority over you know and I have to question it you know where's the Christ likeness and that you know where's the worst Philippians 2 and that where's the mind of Christ no yeah no that's good you know it just it just sort of defies not only logic but it defies you know some of the the way that that Jesus even the exalted Jesus is talked about yeah and we would we would really want for those of you who are watching to familiarize yourself with early church history because a lot of these conversations of who God is at his essence versus who we are at our at our essence and our and our onto ontological level so here's here's a couple things you can find here on our website Apostles Creed we go through eight part series of apostolic Christianity so what we call it's the Apostles Creed we go through line by line in dialogue about that with the doctrine of the Trinity dr. Scott Horrell from Dallas Theological Seminary came in 12 parts on that he's been working on the Trinity for 20 years he is he's a rock star I'd encourage anybody to pick that up and then the patristic s-- that this is another series that we're doing with the early church fathers we quoted those two church fathers that we just mentioned at the nation and maximus of the great maximus the confessor I'm sorry and both of those you can find there those are going to be releasing in June if you want to go to our website now you can sign up and say hey we want access to these when you release them so just go on there give us your email and we will let you know when the series come out but those are great stuff I mean Scott Horrell rock star Matthew Esquivel and Josh offered great guys I've dedicated a lot of time into researching early church history and what we as a Christian community throughout all time have always believed so those things would really help this conversation so we would encourage you guys to do some of that study as we're looking at this doctrine but just even think about about the assumption here that that God is going to change humans to be like Jesus okay as much as much divinity as you can pack into that okay what's the mechanism for it it's gone yeah so right away there's a distinction there there's an ontological distinction to be made between the one with the ability to do that and the ones who are acted upon yeah okay that you can't lose these ontological distinctions and you and you you ought not to ignore them in the way that you talk about this so I've got I've got some some common heresies I think that we could say about the what we call little God's doctrine that's it's and I don't want to be overly broad brushing here I know as I've spoken about this and I'm learning about this there are lots of churches in this kind of vein that don't believe this but but it seems to be a creeping doctrine in people who claim to be part of the word of faith and they talk about little gods so I'm just gonna I'm gonna spit out a couple of ideas here I'm not trying to throw any one person under the bus name drop anybody I'm just trying to get some of those ideas out because their fandom coming after us it's not something necessarily interested in so so when we talk about Genesis right a one of these popular guys will say something to the effect of God made everything after it's like he told the the the the animals we made after their own kind and and the plants to bear seed after their own kind and they bear after their own kind and then right after that God produces man in his own image right that they'll say that in Luke chapter 3 that Adam was the son of God in the same way that Christ was the son of God they will claim divine authority and Adam and that that was lost in a sense and that is being reinstituted even in a better way than what Adam had and if he was the son of God in the same way Jesus was then so are we so so again it's not Orthodox I'll call it Harrison I'll call it what it is but but I'll let you take a stab at it well I my first question being is why do you suppose that the the biblical text doesn't use the the same phrasing after its kind hmm why is that you know because there because there is no kind of you know God is unique he doesn't have a kind that someone else can be after and so that the language gets changed it varies because you can't express the idea the same way I mean you you more or less have to ignore the the change in terminology and and the reasons why that might be and why that really is its it to make these these sorts of statements and and another thing that it does is it'll affirm something that that yeah there's something to the idea that Adam is the son of God okay Israel corporately is also the son of God okay Exodus 4x you know I mean twice Israel is called the son of God you know in the in the exodus account Hosea 11:1 out of Egypt I have called my son referring back to Israel were they pure as the driven snow that had this thing called the Exile alright you know in other words that that the sonship status refers to the unique relationship between those people those humans and God you know and these are God's choices God wants a human family he started with Adam so okay Adam is his son his human son and Israel is the kick-starting of that after the Babel event the Deuteronomy 32 world view the king is God's Son we're all of Israel's kings David included the man after God's own heart were they pure as the driven snow no David was a screw-up okay I mean let's just be honest if there was a awful sin to commit David did it you know but the reason he spared is because he never worships another okay that that's the reason that that he you know is allowed to to basically live and doesn't have the Covenant withdrawn so there are weaknesses to the analogies is the point and and it's one thing to affirm a pattern Adams son of God Israel son of God King son of God also Messiah because he's the line of David son of God Jesus son of God we're sons of God he shares you know Jesus shares his messianic rule with us over a new global eating okay we get that there's a reason for the patterning and the patterning is is to remind us that hey God never gave up on that original program back in Genesis and he's gonna have his way and and we're gonna we're gonna be the beneficiary of that it's not to claim that we have ontological sameness with God because if all those other sons of God did how do they send that's again who are they who are they offending it just doesn't make any sense so that this is this is typically what you know I'll use the word cults yeah or just people who just frankly don't think very well will will pick up on on a word that that's used in Scripture or a phrase and they will just start extrapolating and they will never bother to ask the probative questions that need to be asked or actually look at the analogies in Scripture and ask the simple question well if this is true that what else must be true or you know how you know we're worth where are the words this consistent where does it break down and when we see where it breaks down okay then how are we supposed to think about that because we know we can't go over here and think this thought maybe there are other thoughts we can think I mean this is just this is just clear thinking you know comparing Scripture with Scripture and and observing the phenomena of Scripture and living the phenomena of Scripture give us boundaries on what we can say it's good so when we talk about Adam in the garden I mean there again just quoting other guys here that would say Adam wasn't like God Adam wasn't lesser than God don't even say Adam wasn't inferior to God they'll say that Adam was God and even that kind of concept that phraseology there would don't you think that if Adam was of the same essence of God that the punishment of Adam by God would be impossible that if someone who is of equal role or authority or essence could punish someone else of equal Authority or essence even having this doesn't make any sense yeah it doesn't make an ounce of sense so so so what what do how do we as Christians go to these cult groups these these heretic old doctrines how do we how do we shed light on the truth okay this is this is the phrase that you're using yes let's unpack the theology of this what's the best way to kind of to exegete the Scriptures a little bit more accurately for these people since they're using biblical language but they're not using a biblical definitions to define that language well I think it I think their problems are even more fundamental than definitions if they're not going to ask the obvious questions themselves then we need to ask those questions for them you know and I think that that's sort of the the low-hanging fruit if you will you know of how to converse you know with people who believe these things well okay if you believe this then then how is this thing over here true and you know you get into the place where they you know Lord willing you know they they realize that you know I got a real problem here because if this is true then this this this other thought must be true and it obviously isn't you know so I think we need to help them see what the instead of just sort of proof texting things for them because they're just gonna you know have their own spin on something I think you need to ask the probative questions that extend from this thing there they are wanting you to believe that what often in Q&A you know and I I do this a lot because especially if it's like at a you know one of these sort of Fringe events or like a paranormal talk show or whatever where I view part of my purpose being there is to give these people a better view of Scripture and to restore Jesus reputation a little bit you know in in their heads and they might they might you know they may not they might hate the Lord for good reasons or bad reasons you know there's stupid reasons or yeah I'm just kind of understand that reasons you know personal pain and whatnot but what I typically try to do is look for me to change my line and come over to your side here are the five or six things I need so I mean I'll say it publicly I might I might be thinking you don't have a prayer of ever meeting one of these needs right yeah but but I'm being honest with you I'm not I'm not writing you off I'm telling you I'm being as honest with you as I can I'm telling you here's how to win this discussion here's how to bring me from where I am to where you are these are the things I must know so it goes beyond pointing pointing out to them you know you have a real you have a real problem of logic here a contradiction you know make it personal you know I can't agree with you I can't come over to where you are unless you solve this for me so solve it for me I mean can you help me can you do that for me because I'm willing to listen and if you can do that we're good you know so it you know it helps it gives them homework it it it doesn't just sort of you know beat them over the head with something it doesn't diminish their ability you know to think I mean but but you're gonna have to start the ball rolling because in a lot of these systems they they just don't think about what what their positions mean and so if you can spot those weaknesses very clearly just tell them this is what I need from you you know if you really want me to come over to your side I gotta have these questions answered you know and see where it goes it's good okay so we wrapping up the show here this evening let's let people know how they can get in contact with you your ministry Alice I in contact with you but follow you follow your books authorship we came out with a book called angels recently I read through that one as well awesome rather dyslexic I listened to the audio version very carefully a big fan of both of unseen realm and angels one of the guys who's gonna be filling in as our new co-host in January we started having him go through the book me and the old co-host Michael Miller and he said man I I so believe the unseen realm I'm beginning to doubt the real realm so I thought it was really funny and he was in a doubt about the what the real realm that the see about the seen realm because the unseen realm is so clear he was he was being facetious but he loved the book and it's anyone that I recommend it to that actually goes to in reading it listening to your podcast I have never had one person walk away going uh yeah I don't I don't see the connections or I don't think it's biblical but it's it's very rooted in the text I'm thankful for your scholarship and your work so let people know how they can get contacted sure yeah my homepage is dr as in dr dr ms h those are my initials comm dr ms h calm and you can follow me on twitter @ @ ms hyzer of course you can go up to naked bible podcast comm and subscribe to one of the feeds there on itunes you know either the common podcast sites you're gonna be able to find it but if you go to drm sh comm that's kind of the nerve center you know for everything I do blogging books podcasts YouTube channels and it's all there it's all there in the menus you can find out about the the school the School of Theology that we're starting in February it starts February 10th you find out about that I have a non-profit mnek lot org again you can find that from my home page and that exists right now to provide translations of the stuff that I have the rights to the little books supernatural and my short my little short book what does God want that's for seekers new believers it'll help prepare them for supernatural supernatural prepares people for unseen realm but I want to try to produce as much content as I can for free to just put online and hope someone steals it and uses it so eventually my non-profitable move that will transition to video you know we'll do audio files of the translation supernatural exists in 25 translations right now what does God want isn't about 8 but I want to do audio versions and then we'll start in the video so I'm trying to produce as much content as I can to scatter to the wind you know because I think the church is going to need it I think we're gonna we're headed into some dark times as far as the institutional ability to train people who do ministry in the local church and so I'm trying to encourage other scholars to can as much as they can and give it away so this is this is the goal you know to do as much of that as we can while we are able to do it and and we would like to do likewise so because we're not smart like dr. Heiser we invite other people who are smart like dr. Heiser under the show and ask them questions that we would like answered you know if you guys want to help support us and keep us alive there's a link that down in the description video you can donate on ruminant radio.com the ruminant radio com dead in Sun right the first time again thank you so much for coming on and we're gonna have you on next week or we're hopefully gonna pick up our conversation about angels and Angela G for those of you who are out there we're gonna try to pick up a part two of that I believe Michael Miller my old co-host is going to be here for one last time one last hurrah he was really bummed that he did get to be here this time because he had a lot of questions for you but thank you guys so much for watching remedy I leave us to subscribe here on the video hit the like button make sure to ring the bell so you get notifications every time we go live 8:30 p.m. Monday nights Central Standard Time every single Monday night be blessed and we will see you guys next week [Music] you

Channel: The Remnant Radio

Views: 144,159

Keywords: Dr. Michael Heiser, Michael Heiser, Do We Become God's?, doctrine of theosis, Theosis with Dr. Michael Heiser, doctrine of deification, glorification, Dr. Michael Heister theosis, Dr. Michael Heiser deification, Dr. Michael Heiser glorification, michael heiser theosis, michael heiser deification, michael heiser glorification, theosis, doctrine of glorification, deification, Sons of God, Divine family, michael heiser sons of god, little god doctrine, little gods heresy

Id: H7OKTgHhmiM

Length: 56min 40sec (3400 seconds)

Published: Mon Dec 02 2019