Contrapoints & Theryn Meyer | Bridging The Divide | UBC Talk

Hey everyone hey Contra, how are you doing? I'm doing well. Yeah. We figured the way we would do this is kind of just. We'll just be riffing on each other. It'll not be a super formal interview with like hard questions. I have topics with like suggested questions but we'll just see where it goes. We wanted to be organic. Kind of like an in-person livestream. Yeah. But I wanted to start the event off talking about how we got here because it's kind of germane to the whole what's been on our minds about how do we navigate ourselves within you know pump being popular figures in this political sphere. With all the disparate political factions and some not so savory than others. But this event was we there was quite a bit of turmoil and tumultuous times because your audience kind of or a large portion of your audience turned on you when you announced it specifically because of the presence of conservative trans commentator. Blair white and I kind of want to ask you what went down and why do you think that weighed down and then maybe you got from them. Yeah. So this is really a continuation of a problem that I've had for a few months now on YouTube are just existing in a political space on social media. I started a couple months ago when I did an interview for New York magazine with the journalist Jesse Singel who is considered by a lot of trans people to be transphobia. And I'm not going to comment on whether or not that's the case but basically my doing an interview with him became a cause of major hostility towards me from a lot of other trans people you know. And I got defensive about it. I did that thing that we all do on Twitter we just like lash out at everyone who dogpile as you double down. I double down. Yeah I managed to heal that. And then of course this event comes out and the idea the idea that my whole audience turned against me that's not really what happened. A lot of people on Twitter are I wouldn't really quite consider them fans because all they do. With respect you're talking to me now is criticize me in an extremely vitriolic terms so these are not these we fans right. But like I think 5 The frustration is that legitimate criticism or well-meaning criticism gets mixed together with half truths with exaggerations with outright falsehoods until the point where the story being passed from leftist Twitter verse was Contra points is doing fundraising for a Nazi event. And like I said I mean there's just like there's still corners on Twitter where people are good go round spraying us and I have these frustrating interactions where I say like you know I see someone saying this. Yeah but she did this she like did she raise money for Holocaust deniers. And then I'll start correcting them and then I get to the frustrating point where I say like look it's never happened I point to all the evidence that never happened and I did say like well you should've done a better job communicating with your fans that you weren't raising money for her for the fourth race. And it's like you know. So on the one hand it is an intensely frustrating as someone on the left who tries to have these kinds of conversations or who tries not to just stick to my own corner of Twitter. But on the other hand I frustrated that a lot of people are very interested in this story about. Leftist turn on their own or the story of like leftist shut down Frisbees leftist shut down dialogue and you know whenever this happens to be a bunch of journalists show up and they wanted to suddenly they don't they never talked to me except when something like this happens they suddenly want to talk to me because they know that they can tell this story about crazy campus SJW now I don't want to be part of that story being told to be honest because I think it's not the most important story going on right now. But it's a story that a lot of people are intensely interested in telling. Well the thing is I think that that is it isn't your audience or the majority of your audience certainly not. But I do think it represents a certain certain faction within the left and that what's what's unfortunate to me is like you do such great work for the left in terms of. Giving them good arguments giving them good ways of thinking about things and mobilizing them. And I feel like things like that definitely slow slow the left down in terms of it demobilize them and just crises infighting. And focus on the bigger picture. But you said there was some legitimate criticisms. I'm just curious to get to those because. I don't think that you believe that you know kind of the you're not completely sold on the whole free marketplace of ideas. Any ideas should be given a platform anywhere at any time and so forth. So I think there's something to be said for exercising discretion when it comes to what kinds of events or what we have on college campuses or what kinds of speakers we bring to college campuses. There are some speakers who because of their intensely let's just say bigoted views. They simply bringing them onto campus sort of threatens the campus mission of being an inclusive space a place that is on some basic sense safe for people and where they think they're not going to be subjected to intense hostility on the basis of their gender or the basis of their space or whatever. So. You know but when it comes to take a more extreme example than anything considered here is it a good idea to bring Richard Spencer to campus. No it's not. And I don't think that you know I think that if I were to do an event like that people would be justified in criticizing me or there is at least a case to be made. Now unfortunately no one's ever seems content to limit what they say to that and everything always has to go from zero to 60 with people on the Internet. And so it can't just be on Twitter. It can't just be I think this is an ill conceived idea that I think is an ill conceived event. It has to go straight to. Why are you enabling the rise of fascism. You know like there's there's not a measured version. Yes well there is a measured version of it but it gets drowned out you know and it's as a person who is subjected to this kind of criticism. It's difficult to listen to the measured version of it when you're also being accused of colluding with Nazis. Yeah definitely. I think where people are in this centrists and also center right right that's where they come from in terms of like host Richard Spencer is like you know the whole free market place of ideas platitude. I think what they get wrong is like that that is true for like in a purely intellectual space which no no space in this world is a pure intellectual space is the real world with real consequences. You can't separate the ideas from the effect it has on the people on the subtext that carries within a social political context. And what I was running through this this kind of thought in my head and I was imagining I was listening to a bunch of bench Paris stuff on trans people. And just how shitty deeply deeply deeply shitty it is regardless of his supposed rationalizations just the real world effect it has it. It gives so many people a reason to just miss gender trans people online in person and to investigate their identity and pick it apart. Right. And I was just thinking to myself like. Imagine like this trans girl who's going on campus trying to have a good learning environment a good experience trying to engage with ideas and she hears that some of her classmates organize jihad. Ben Shapiro come on and talk about you know transgenderism just that knowing that she is surrounded by those people is inherently hostile. Like I understand that. Like I could imagine what that must be like that content and that. In a very real sense that impedes on for example in this experiment her learning experience and the learning environment and engaging with ideas and so pretending like like Ben Shapiro coming on on campus and talking spot spotting pretty shitty things doesn't have a real world effect on how other people can engage in the free marketplace of ideas and in a learning environment I think is foolish and a little bit naive. Yeah I totally agree with that. I think that to anticipate what's going to be the objection the objection today is going to be that well people these kids just need to grow up and understand that there's people who are hostile to them. The world's not a safe space. So you know get over the fact that some people are having opinions that are bigoted towards you OK on some level as pragmatic advice. That's true. Like we both know that if you're gonna be trans you're just going to have to deal with some people being terrible about it and everyone who is trans just has to deal with that. On the other hand when you're deciding which speakers to bring to your university you know my lawyer novelist to tell would be the worst the mateship you're I think yeah and arms of someone who is actually called it a picture as a student transit at the university at that university at the University are made fun to bully her on stage. This is not appropriate for a university event now by any stretch. Yeah right. And I think there's a really strong even in a way that that centrists and people on the right come into standard in terms of free speech is a free speech argument to be made that you know puts the that person or that a group of people in a position where they're unable to engage in that market of free speech. It's except in a few weird parts of the Internet. It's never just anyone saying anything right. There's always an organization to it. Even like when you have a free speech club and you organize events like you're choosing to amplify a particular person speech and a particular topic. And by doing that you're sort of already. It's not politically neutral in other words. There's already a presumption that this person's worth listening to people should hear what they have to say that the topic of debate is something that's worth discussing. So. It's you know what frustrates me about the free speech of the defensive bringing some of my in or Richard Spencer onto campus. A lot of cases would be that you know there's a whole lot of people who you're not bringing on you're not you know we're not bringing anyone to talk about structural racism in America years. Instead you're asking the question should we have a white ethno stay in America. And it's like simply by deciding that's what the debate's going to be about. You're prioritizing. Yeah. Because we control about everything the specific given time. You know there's there's an inherent you're making a hierarchy and you almost when you when you prioritize certain facts or certain certain topics you are in it like in life. You must have some kind of a moral system onto something like by which to organize facts or and prioritize them. And yeah I guess I just think this to be common sense like when you organize it it's not anymore. Yeah yeah I know I know because you exercise discretion of your choosing who to platform who to bring to your event who'd have what topics to debate. You know there are people on the left who will take probably too extreme an opposite position where they want to do the platform or disinvite anyone who is even slightly out of line of a particular moral and political vision of the world. And I find that can be frustrating as someone who tries to do this stuff on the left because you know I'll find I'll get attacked even for having it even for doing a video for instance about why I think white nationalism is wrong and he will say like to even have this conversation is to already legitimize this topic as something that is up for discussion. Now I would agree maybe in certain circumstances like I think you know I had this reaction once was seeing an English morning news show had a doctor on to debate whether conversion therapy for gay teenagers might not actually be so about an idea after all. And I'm like Is this really this question we should be asking right now. But I think in the case of putting out you know material that's sort of against for instance white nationalism I mean enough people believe in this stuff that it's sort of I'm not concerned that simply by mentioning the topic I'm going to raise awareness of this thing that's faded into nothingness. No there's not is there. And it has to be dealt with. It's just a question of how to deal with it. Well I've noticed and trying to come to grips with this catch 22 of you know you ignore white nationalists and they just kind of fester and do their own thing and maybe become more radicalized rather than you know saving the few that are salvageable. But then you engage these ideas in the public sphere and you platform them you are implicitly saying that these ideas are worth engaging and you are. At like contributing to putting those. Ideas in the Overton Window of acceptable public conceptions of morality and ideas that are OK. And you're shifting it to the right simply by acknowledging it. And that is not me saying that we shouldn't engage with these ideas but I don't trust anyone who doesn't acknowledge the Catch 22 in that. So this isn't this this idea that sunlight is the best disinfectant. Yeah. It's united to your listeners. So what do we do about white nationalists like well which is bring their ideas out into the forefront. We expose them for what they are than ever we'll see that they're bad OK. I agree with that. But I don't agree with is that giving Richard Spencer a megaphone is the best way to get clarity on Richard Spencer's ideas now radio isn't. You know Richard Spencer and people like him I've noticed and I had to really take the time to go deep into the. Annals of of all right YouTube and all right Internet and figure out that he's really good at making his ideas sound closer to the open window than it really is. And and he has a vested interest to do that because he needs to recruit people use the grassroots movement. I think that's. And so someone like for example running millennial who basically just sat there and smiled. Richard Spence in an interview not pushing him on anything. I feel like that's that's not responsible platform. It's become a YouTube genre. Let's interview Richard Spencer like not click bait and it's like. It's frustrating because Richard Spencer wants this. So when you're when you're Richard Spencer and you think that you're official policy position is that the I did states should be transformed into a homogenous ethnically white state based on the principles of national socialism. Like you're having to have a great deal of difficulty getting mainstream and he's not a Nazi. Of course not. There is a alternative ethno nationalist like your but first you know you're gonna have a great deal of trouble getting on CNN. So he's looking for any platform and he has acknowledged this. Yeah it's more like niche streams here acknowledges. You know I don't care if CNN or leftist interviewers the right man and treat treat me terribly because at least I'm getting the ideas out there and he takes every circumstance that he can. So that makes it very difficult. Like do you engage with Richard Spencer at all. I personally do not. For insanity sanity I think I could someone be good at it. Maybe I mean it depends on some people have different talents. Some people are very good at arguing with a disingenuous person like that and making them appear sort of exposing their efforts to an audience. I personally am not great at it. Are these not without. Why don't I trust myself. Yeah you know. So if you have someone who is just like rhetorically terrifying you know kind of like Christopher Hitchens person. Fine. They can debate or nationalists and make them move. But it's dangerous move. As a mother I don't even really want to attempt especially in view of a situation where in this case Richard Spencer he just is going around the You Tubers begging them to have him on his on their channel. Why. Because he's confident that any news is good news that any platforming is good platform and he is sort of right on. He's kind of right. And if he thinks that it's going to help him I'm inclined to believe it. And I don't want to be part of that. Yeah I don't want to get them. That's the thing I see you mentioned how you just by doing an event with someone like black or white and you've got a lot of shit from. From a certain portion in the. Yeah I had a similar experience. I tweeted out the other day. I I simply asked Andy was he if he I'd consider all the possible ramifications of hosting a debate with three Nazis on the number one trending livestream with eleven thousand people watching at one point. Like has he not. Don't do it. But like Have you thought all of it through. I'm just asking him that got me so much shit. I am in it should I mean. I don't care about free speech. You only care about free speech as long as you agree with it and and so that stuff comes on the right as well. You know I simply ask him to think about what he is doing exactly because from what I could tell he wasn't. And maybe up in that moment it wasn't the biggest deal but it may be a big deal in the future. I guess. We've gone through a lot of what we're going to talk about he's kind of right. We fly more. Yeah. Well I was. We kind of answered this already but like how to deal with it all right. We kind of. Well yeah I mean so so here. Here's one way to approach our question. When I talk to people like Andy Lawsky who you tubers who will have already figures on their channel ostensibly for the purpose of discussions or debates over what they say is you know it's the sunlight is the best disinfectant argument. They say that well you know if their ideas are so bad we simply have a discussion with them and we discredit them. So you say OK well what happens once they're discredited. If the answer turns out to be that once they're discredited no one has them on their YouTube channel anymore. Why don't we just get right to that and not have them on our YouTube channel. You don't I mean like if I just if the intention to outrage discredit their views right then why have them on in the race. You know it seems to me that these people they're already widely discredited how much more discredited could these things be among them. You know in polite company it's about the polite. So. So I think that if we could stop gawking at them like a train accident as a you know as journalists as YouTube's as academics I think in some sense that would be a start. Yeah. Like something I try to do in dealing with them is I. It's difficult for me because I do agree with you. But at the same time I'm one of those people I'm super curious and I and I do love watching those debates. I'm not going to lie because I like it's similar to someone who likes obsessively watching documentaries unlike mass murderers or serial killers. It's like you're just so fascinated by how could someone believe this. And I want to understand it. So like I watch an inordinate amount of like Terry McCarthy on and die. Who else. Wild Bunch people. My point is like I try to understand them so that I can debunk them but I don't try to understand them. I make it a personal journey I'm not going to like try and understand them while I broadcast it on my channel for everyone to see. Yeah. So. Well I mean I share your morbid curiosity but isn't that kind of what started so yeah we all saw you. I mean the reason I started covering all right on YouTube not to be too arrogant. Like before most before it was a major news story and one of the reasons that I started talking about it is that I had know going back to 2007 something like a Stormfront lurker just out of shares gawking at the train accident like I wanted to see like oh a Nazi. Like what do they saying. What is their deal you know. But of course I was just some person. You know I wasn't putting this up on my platform. I was just voyeuristic like staring into the void and like you would like live streaming yourself now. Right. Right. Right. Right. But it was having done that. That made me able to recognize that the sudden mainstreaming of the kind of Stormfront mentality especially when it came to about two years ago suddenly common sections are filled with the word cock and they're filled with talking talk about white genocide. All this stuff was on Stormfront years ago. So that kind of rang alarm bells for me. And you took them seriously. Yeah I took it I hear you. You you didn't go with. You didn't care about the people saying you can't take a joke. You don't understand shit posting trolling don't feed the trolls all that stuff. You took it serious. Yeah. Well if you go back to 2016 there was a whole talk about all right. It was just a joke because just me and there is irony is just pepper a law like crack you know hilarious. That was what they were. Now they're getting 300 miles I'm using on right right right under there. An actual faction of real politics. I saw the first data. That's right it was incredibly frustrating trying to get anyone to take it seriously. And then you know Trump won and then everyone shut up. Bye. Bye. Yeah. So I see. What you mean like there's a value of course in learning. About them. Like I'm not saying like oh we must like look away or avert our gaze from the Nazis but it's about how you go about ignoring like is it worth going into all right forums and stuff and reading the stuff as it yeah. Like I think it is like I think everyone should do that honestly. Like go read what not to say. Like you know I think that's a responsible thing to do. Go read my comments like that's so responsible it earlier first focus for folks it's a responsible thing to do to be aware of what you know because you've more knowledge is is good. Well you want to know what these people are like or for any group you know. But there's a line that's crossed when you start bringing them onto your YouTube channel. When you start hosting campus events with them when you start effectively helping them spread their ideas. And I may not be how you view it. Not only spreading the ideas but I think there's a is a subtext that comes with sitting there analysts hearing them out. Yeah and and and. Not challenging them there's a subtext that girl that reads as I'm somewhat sympathetic or complicit in this and maybe that subject text. That's up text usually isn't intended but it is. Comes across and I didn't believe it at first. I was very much not wild about it but I saw it happen in front of my own eyes. So another thing is I think that people can maybe take online comments a little bit more seriously I'm not saying every single thing. Sometimes people generally are just shit posting some nice people Jr on or just being ironic. But here's the thing all irony and many circumstances it kind it is a way of kind of dipping your toe into some belief that you actually are a little bit sympathetic towards. Right. It's a way of kind of playing around with it before you go full on. And I've seen so many of these people who kind of like laughing as as as writers and I'm being ironic and shit posting become that right. And so we should take that seriously and maybe like quit. I was just trolling right. What do you think about. Yeah I think that for some people these jokes and memes can be a way of like experimenting with an idea or sort of just see how they feel expressing it. It's also you know an idea that they know is very socially not acceptable and that's a kind of safer way to do it as a joke because you can say things as a joke that you can't say sincerely. Right. Like that one the reasons why comedy is so often a vote as a defense even when it's being defended isn't really comedy. So you see this is what happens often so I didn't say comedy is subjective so anything just come everything's comedy. Yeah. So yes I think raises that people get mad at you. You say I was just a joke. Well it's kind of a cop out isn't it. I mean you can say anything was just a joke. And you know sometimes that you know there is it is just a joke but sometimes people are. There is no punchline whatsoever. And in the case of course it's a little bit different from deliberately using it. But I do think you've also would deliberately kind of as a tactic of obfuscation. Right. That means that peppy. It's to put up the front of the whole thing is incredibly trivial. That's just for laughs. And you know I'm not just making this up. You can find Richard Spencer saying the exact same thing. That's where he is. That's what he says about what he's doing. He. Yeah. Yeah. Very encouraging. You know what he's doing cause he's not the mastermind of this. Like we give him to way too much credit right here. No he's just kind of like the typical white house. Yes. He's picked up that kind of Internet energy that's who we can use this Oh look at Fortune came off. Well let's let's get that in here. Yeah yeah. I kind of. Maybe we should switch gears a little bit and talk about. Trans activism because that's something we are both in a sense doing whether we want to or not whether we need to or not. I think we can't really deny that we're doing some form of activism or public trans public figures that talk about trans issues in a sympathetic way and so on. So I think it's important to figure out how do we best make the world better for trans people. How how do we go about it. And how we've been going about it so far hasn't been good. Oh what. I think that you know no one person can do that much but my individual approach to this has been you could simply do a lot by being trans and then being visible and don't even have to be doing after them just doing things. Creating a public character of yourself that people can sort of empathize with on some level. You know I did this I did a vehicle gender dysphoria which is not an argument or debate. It's just like a series of like little vignettes that are supposed to convey something about what gender dysphoria is like and that I hope because for some people it's just like it's enough to to respected. Right. I guess my puberty is my pronouns but I just want them to allow me to exist. I'm not satisfied with that. I want to be understood. And like we'd like as we all do and young and I think well that's a thing right. You you you know you can agree or disagree with the idea of minimum wage. I know you know. But you know or like a 15 dollar minimum wage with this too much. But the idea like you push them at fifteen dollars in a wage over and over and over and over again and you argue you get politicians talk about it and then eventually end up with you know a twelve dollar way which is much better than an undocumented wage and so should we be asking for more so that we get you know rather than. Being compromising and then just getting nowhere. So should we be making optimistic demands in the hopes of a strong and like uncompromising demands innocence like certain things were not compromising on. Yes I think that's probably true. I think that as long as you earn you can afford not to compromise on some basic things that you shouldn't. For example I would never compromise the idea that OK fine trans women or men. I would never like in no circumstance. But there are signs that mean to you like how far would you go to stop someone from saying that. It's not that I would stop sign here saying that I just wouldn't ever compromise to that point to the point of associating with them or of saying OK well as long as you use something it's ok that you do that it's ok that you think that trans women or men. Yeah yeah but that's OK. So what kind of sub tweeting here we are some say that because you know someone like Blair white stars kind of readers. No I think she does she really lowers the bar in terms of like she will sit there on a hot binge apartheid. You're a man and you're just you just look like a woman. I'm not for that reason I'm going to call you he Ebola and she's like Oh. Yeah. Well so this is not I'm so my question is does that actually that kind of super compromising does that make some of the really far dyed in the wool bigots just make them a little bit more tolerant. Does the Blair white strategy have any effect. If you want to do gay rights activism other than making money you don't do it by trying to ingratiate yourself with the Westboro Baptist Church. Like the point that culture can move well beyond what Ben Shapiro things and his opinions are irrelevant. So trying to even create a little niche herself as a conservative trans person or as a conservative whatever minority group you always have food on the plate if you're going to do that. But. If you you know if as you say if you're willing to compromise to the extent where you're like oh yes sure you call me a man as long as the paycheck keeps coming I like Doug knows I hopefully won't be you. Mm hmm. I mean his argument that she would be oh she's creating is understanding with Ben Shapiro. I mean the argument has to be that venture pure is now more likely to treat trans people better in the future because we said he could treat them badly now. Which I find implausible implausible and I think that there's a degree to which. I don't know if the universe lives is when it comes to people who want that kind of problems today as. A lot of Ben Shapiro's audience a lot not all I know there are some great Shapiro fans. I see you a lot. It's like Do you really inspire people to be more exciting to transport or be more accepting of you. Like people are great at compartmentalizing right. It doesn't necessarily universes and then you have this cushy position as the one trans person that they're willing to tolerate with a thin veneer of acceptance. Well there's something to be said for the idea that creating sympathy for one individual tends to be come potentially generalizable. Like how many people do I know who have told me that my coming out as trans are my being in their life as a trans person has transformed what they thought about trans people and I've heard the same from other people who say like they just did not get it until someone they knew came I was trans was only new transitioned and I think that being that person in their life you know can have a transformative effect. So I don't want to completely trivial or completely disparage the notion that having some conservative trans people around could possibly open up a little bit of understanding and circles where that might not otherwise find it like probably it can. But this is enhanced. This is achieved simply by being trans in those spaces. He has not aided by the kind of attempting to make political concessions or trying to get away with your own sense of entitlement to basic politeness. I don't see that as helpful in any way. Yeah that's a I think that was a really good discussion on how to move forward on certain things done compromise on. Now what your principles are. But beyond that try to be reasonable in a sense. Don't. There are some trans activists that are pretty crazy. For example last year. The Vancouver women's library opened in February. They had all kinds of books in the library including trans exclusionary radical feminists. But they also had a bunch of authors that was super transformative right. But. They were convinced these trans activists were convinced that that it was run by Tufts and they they were like tearing up pages of books that were yelling they were at the opening of this library and I think that's that's really like I would go to that library and I'd be like I don't speak for trans people but on behalf of like reasonable trans people I'm sorry that they did that to you because that is not okay. So I'm cautious about telling this kind of crazy trans activists type story. How do some activists behave in ways that are to say the least bad optics. Yes I. They just also. Admittedly I'm being unreasonable now but I think oftentimes the sense of outrage comes from a place of thought I think is outrageous. Outrage is justified but I think that it's it can be expressed in ways that are unproductive. That. Do not really do anything by appease the kind of emotional drive. And is that sometimes a problem. Yes it can become. Like I said an optics problem but it's also incredibly difficult when you have a media environment or journalists who like to tell the story they do again. So. Yeah on the one hand like yes there are activists who go about things that are very counterproductive way on the other hand. There are a lot of journalists who are so obsessed with this. They're more interested in crazy trans activists as a story than they are in trans rights as a story because it sounds right. Yeah it's reminiscent of you know one person you know transmit existed for as long as humans have basically as far as we can tell and that's no surprise. And then there's this one person who Rachel Dolezal and they think they think they co-opt the trans issue and call out trans racial. Okay let's all talk about this one person in the history of everything. And then by calling it trans. Something or trans species or trans Abel drawing this trans phobic metaphor like metaphysical equivalence between the two where there isn't any. I was saying this in a livestream once you can you can go from one state to another and call it trans something like I. I earlier today didn't have makeup on that I put makeup on I'm not trans beauty trans cosmetic. Trans cosmetic you have. If you can put a label like that on anything. And it's like you choose to put those labels on there because it sells because people want those buys confined. I'm like oh this is what's going to happen now. Now we're going have people you know identifying as you know slices of cheese or whatever yeah. So I mean it's usually the issue with the journalist covering the crazy trans people is that the story transparent here is the here that here's the dilemma that trans people are in. Here is this this problems they face in society. This isn't as sense as a media consumer or difficult story this where they ask you to think about why things are bad. The story that potentially asks you to change how you think and change how you behave. That's hard. And people don't like that. The story these crazy artists are making unreasonable demands. That's easy as a story because it tells you I'm fine. It's the people who are complaining that are the problem. So do you think this and for that reason that there's something inherently conservative about Normie or mainstream culture like that kind of. Well it isn't like you to the side. And I don't want to sort of nail down sling a little more specific thing like more is following popular culture. Yeah yeah. People that don't like do what even I hate. So I think wonder a YouTube. I think that the mainstream media. Yeah I think that there's on to a lot of reporting on these issues. There is a kind of conservative bent especially in the fascination with the deranged activists right as as a news story is just something that I find becomes an excuse not to think about the issues. So I'm the next YouTube video I'm working on is about kind of an old controversy within the kind of relation between academics and trans people and it's like Journey upon niche Yeah. But I know I know it says a lot of topics to explain. But I hope it's going towards somewhere like so base there is a kind of BS that goes back to 2003 with a publication book called The Man Who Would Be Queen by Michael Bailey which proposed a bad theory of what it is to be a trans woman and a theory that sort of misrepresents us in ways are kind of stigmatizing. And there's a kind of I'm just incorrect whether it's dramatizing or not. There was a massive backlash against Bailey and against this book that came from Trans activists and trans people and you know there's been so subsequently many articles and books written about the controversy often talking about how unfair Bailey was treated. Yep. And how crazy and awful these trans activists are. So is there some truth to that perhaps but also Bailey still has his job he is doing fine. Yeah. And it does. No one has paid attention to the fact and in the coverage of this story what's been lost is the fact that this theory was wrong. And that is actually quite stigmatizing and damaging to trans people. So there really was something there that the articles were mad about in the first place. So it's like you know in the case that is I think the same with a number of these recent if I mean this is just becoming a very repetitive news story right. White says smell a college professor between the ages of 35 and 70 says a thing that's offensive a bunch of SJW is get angry about it. Free speech is under attack. Newspapers go up you know. But in a lot of these cases you know the audience gathers Yeah did it do the activists misbehave sometimes. Do they do they mix. Half truths and exaggerations along with the genuine criticisms. Yes. Do you think that's a bad thing that they mixed half truths and exaggerate. Well that's a bad thing. Yes I do. But you know if you look at these people most of them have their jobs. Many of them are much more wealthy and influential than they were before they were silenced by SJW. I mean how is Jordan Peterson doing. Like is he on the streets. Like last I checked his patron was around 50 K a month layoff. He's doing fine. You know he's being silenced turns out to be very profitable and like you know the initial controversy that erupted was about him refusing to use a non binary students pronouns which. Well it wasn't an actual stick. OK. A hypothetical. Yeah. Yeah. Which actually is something he's wrong about. So man is wrong. People overreact person wrong person becomes lionized and defended in the name of sticking to these crazy artists. This is a story that's become very tedious to me. And it's it's a story that people often you know journalists they don't want to talk about me unless they want to talk about this kind of thing. All journalists want to talk to me about is tell me about your career. I mean that's how we started this mentor. Tell me about your crazy audience like what is with those crazy trans people that follow you. Like how let's talk about that's all anyone wants to talk about. It's frustrating Yeah. Because you feel like they're not asking the right questions. They're asking me. There's a single line that migrate. Because the thing is like I'm like are some leftists on the Internet like unreasonable. Yes. The people I mean I'm sitting around here and having myself accused of Holocaust denial and you know preposterous things. But I try I don't let myself get so obsessed with that that I lose my sight of the fact that the more important political and moral struggle is going on right now. Like and it's annoying to me that so much of the storytelling that goes on around these events is obsessed with telling the same crazy octopus story again and again. Where are we at. Shall we start the queue and I shall we take a 15 minute break and then I thought the queue and I know. Lewis. Yes Lewis says yes. OK. Perfect all right. We can take a 15 minute break. Stretch your legs and you can give us a round of applause. We'll start the training session at 8 15 and I would also like to remind you that the donation box is right over there. And I enjoy your brain. Also. You look pretty amazing. Let's. It. Welcome back. And now it's time for the Q and A session are we shooting this can be a bit of a ramble. So there's usually years of activism up before a moment happens in which society accepts something as a whole. So gay activism. Some could even say it started it like the turn of the 20th century. And then there was a point where some figurehead will step out and it will be useful because even your mom can agree with it. So like one can say gay activism had a point in which Ellen came out and that was a useful moment despite it not being the most of the moments. It was a point in which society took a turn. With trend transgender politics at the fore there's this sort of has been a much more imperfect thing with like Caitlyn Jenner a person with really regressive politics but also coming out. So do you think we've hit that moment and we're on the other side of it. Or do you think you're working up to that moment. And what will it look like. So I wouldn't expect it always to go the same way with whatever kinds of activism we're doing. So I think I'm looking around for who is the Trans Ellen is probably not necessary because there's not any reason why there's going to be someone who's just like that. I mean with Caitlyn Jenner you know we have someone who was famous before anyone was aware that she was trans and someone whose politics are not superb. I mean I think does it have an effect. Yeah people will now all know at least one trans person because of the celebrity of Caitlyn and that's like something. Not the whole thing. But it's like a moment of a public awareness. So I think that looking for a perfect Alexander movements is not necessarily we can't sit around expecting it to be exactly the same but there are going to be some similarities. Sorry and I had no fun. OK so this might be more for Theron I think for both of you. Despite like both countries having fairly different legal and cultural approaches to free speech it seems like both Canada and the United States are sort of having the same try. All have a lot of the same talking points in the on the ground discussions. Do you think that's justified. And what do you think the difference in the conversations should be. The question is explained Canada. Won. In Canada. Obviously we do. We do have hate speech hate speech laws. You can't advocate genocide the protected groups. There are limitations to your free speech. You can't incite incite violence and it's not quite as it's not quite as free speech absolutist as in the US. So yeah I think you're right that the conversation should be a little bit different right. I mean in the US at the moment so much of the conversation trends you know politics is about like stopping these negative things from happening. It's the bad the bathroom bills the military bad right. It's because of the nature of the current administration. It's like old defense damage control and try to prevent things getting worse and worse in Canada. Maybe it's more you can afford to sort of be climbing upwards instead of just raising the shields. Yeah yeah. And I think Canada even in its in its laws a little bit more social justice oriented you can say in a sense we have those protective groups. And it's kind of how kind of you know does its thing basically. There's an argument to be made that it's like if you don't like it don't live here kind of thing. I don't know like because. There. Is an argument it's a very good one but some people hate the fact that that Canada is more kind of social justice oriented like Overton Window just is more to the left naturally. Which I actually like. You know Canada has given me so many opportunities that I would never have had if I stayed in South Africa for example. So. I can't fault them for that in many ways. Question was should we having a different conversation. Well yes I do think that we should in terms of the legality and the history and the culture because it's different. It is different you know. I think that you know my answer is yes but not too much then not right now because my brain is a little bit. This is a bit of an open ended question. You were talking earlier and you talk about people like Jordan Pete Peterson and Jay Jay Michael Bailey and how they're wrong but they still get this platform and they go on with their lives perfectly well. And I also noticed in online spaces especially on MySpace it's marginalized people it's like when you're wrong you're wrong and you're screwed. And so it's kind of like. It's like and I'm maybe that's open ended question to sort of the Free Speech club in general but I think the idea of free speech could really be about the space to be able to be wrong and then grow from that. And so like online communities. How can we create the space for people of all different walks of life to be wrong. And. What's the roadmap to that. And also because like if you don't create that road map for people to be wrong the other people who. You know go straight white male obviously they get to be wrong and go off and have their own platform. And the reason they get to do that is because the marginalized people have less and lower standards for them whereas we have really high standards for people who are marginalized. And then yeah. So how do we go and create that roadmap of being able to be wrong. And grow. That's I'm really sorry. I'm really trying to certainly. I like the way you're putting out. That's right of freedom to be wrong and something that I feel like I have lost in the last since. It's my first started making contact online. Like maybe more patterned after I did. So I could just like fuck up all the time like I did. And like you know you make a bad take on Twitter people tell you you're wrong. That was a bad take. I don't get to make bad takes on Twitter anymore because too many people follow me. And if I say something stupid and like ruins my week out of that I have I feel like there's a lot of things I want to talk about that I don't fully understand. But I feel like I cannot publicly talk about somebody because my online platform middling though is is already too big to do this. So how do we do it. Do you have any idea what it is something that I can relate to a lot because I have been very wrong on a lot of things online and you know. For example like I'm like planning on making an apology video. Sometime next week. And basically I'm going to talk about like how I've not spoken about non binary people in the right way. And I've. I've. Kind of contributed to this shit that I have to deal with already and I was wrong I shouldn't have done that. I guess that I do still have this fear because I know I've said and done things online that have hurt people and a lot of people have I'm kind of a reformed shitload. And I sympathize with where they were coming from because I came from there as well. And I like my vision and I hope people will somehow understand on that that I do have this fear that I was wrong and I was publicly wrong I'm that had some ramifications that weren't good so well that were held against me. I'm not sure and I would hope that it's not because I think that the world needs more people like me. Yeah that's. That's not really an answer the question but it was open ended I guess. Yeah. Hi. I was wondering if if Dave Rubin ever left his echo chamber would you would you ever go on his show and how do you think that would work out. Well I mean the my channel has been kind of an ongoing joke about me trying to go on his show it for the time being. I kind of don't do anything like that. Like I'd just been turning all these things down because I just don't feel like dealing with it. I hope I get to a point where I sort of get over that. RUBIN I may make an exception for it because it's one of two tropes that I feel like if anyone gave me trouble for that I could simply point them to everything I've ever said. I would go on his show but I once called him out for being an echo chamber and I think that's kind of takes you off of his list. He's considered having me on. And I think he actually decided not to have me on anymore because I told him I'm tired of your echo chamber. Please you you talk about how you want your show to be about big ideas. And and and how is this free speech platform. There's this big gap like how people like Natalie on have Kyle Linsky Galinsky come from secular talk. Have David Stockman of destiny have some cedar or his co-host Michael Brooks. How people like that on and on then you know and I kind of call them out on Twitter which maybe that's not the best way of doing it but yeah. So basically probably not going to ever go on this channel because I called him out on it which is you know maybe I deserve it. I should learn to like not tweet. So you have to learn by a POV lobby and conditioning. Like it's just that once you get into my work even the thought of tweeting makes you panic like you've been trained. So we were talking earlier about like Ellen as this sort of public figure for the gay rights movement but there's Brinkley in the transmission. There's this interesting thing where you know if you're looking for role models or just representatives it's if you're a racial minority or if you're a woman that's obvious or even if you're gay there was obviously a long phase where most people were closeted. But it was it was expressed. But the trans community has the concept of basically stealth. It's you know I'm a man or a woman whatever. And like I shouldn't be treated that way. And like allMr. Reese the fact that I'm trans from history. Do you feel like that's going to fade or that it was a good thing bad thing what are your sort of feelings around this objective stuff particularly with regards to giving people either a role model or example of you know community. Well there are a lot of trans people who are living their lives stuff and perform not at all happy about trans. Activism having this big like moment about what is going on. They were perfectly happy without anyone poking around and thinking about this too much. And I sort of get why they would feel that way because I understand that you know you feel like I'm done with this. I don't think that one on the other hand I feel my personal feeling about this is that it's necessary if this is going to be a movement of any kind of you're going to organize your interests for recognition for your rights. You kind of have to name herself. And that means knocking itself. At least you know you can be stuck at McDonald's. I don't mean it is not being selfish on the platform. Well it's not supposed to. It's one less trans. Like. It's one less trans fats not exist. Nobody knows that business right. All right. I would like. To say. Sorry things since it's Friday. You know that are in the minds of people like. Like if you don't like out of sight out of mind. Right. I have to think about these things. Obviously they exist. But. My point is that I would like to live in a society where trans people doesn't have to be stuff and not exist in order to exist. I would be nice. I'm just saying we're like we're getting them. We've had a lot of parties and it's not like dire straits. I know for some people in some cases like South Africa is absolutely not right. You know. It's. Anyway. It doesn't. Even exist. I mean for sure. All right. So. Speaking of this. Hi my name is Frantz Gretzky. I'm a fourth year philosophy student here at UBC. I've been I think fair to say very involved in the free speech activism on this campus and I have a question for you. You've sort of please be patient is going to take a couple of words to get us out. So you've talked about you've met. Just briefly mentioned gender neutral pronouns and you also talked about you a little bit critical I think about Jordan Peterson so very briefly I I started a bitter course of recently an elective course here at UBC and I think it's important to keep talking about why what we're talking about. I'm here for the same reason a lot of people are which is that I think there's something like a free speech movement being created on the campuses. And I think the reason for that is that young men in particular although there's wonderful that many wonderful red pill women here tonight. Thank you. Ah are kicking back for the rights. You mentioned that it's not always that there's a content when you're talking about free speech and the content for me and for a lot of people I think it's the right to criticize the distortions and the excesses and some of the textured technical inaccuracies in the narrative of it. Yeah. Well let me ask you. OK well life's complex you know. The area you're asking. Yeah well I'm sorry I've been diagnosed in the upstairs in spectrum of several times. That might be an issue. So I'm just gonna let him finish the question. I I'm trying to make a point sensitively because this is there's this there's different groups here. There's free speeches there's people were trends there's different kind of metaphysical assumptions but here's fine. We want me to be your. Yeah. You want me to be blind so I'll put it out. But here's the deal. I think that we're not talking about enough about the campus issues because this is a talk having on the campus in the middle of a kind of a culture war. And at the core of that are issues. Let's use one example gender neutral pronouns. OK so that's satisfying. So so that he has I mean I'm sorry. So when I what I wanted to ask you about is this my thought on this. So I was in the theater club course and we start the course it's about culture and we start the question. I want this to be a safe space says the professor. I want all you to give your pronouns as we introduce each other says the professor. So the question is with situations like that I want to ask your questions about policy and culture of how we're going to move forward with this. The reason why I think this matters is because trends individuals biological males biological females who identify with the other side and thus again it's a touchy issue right. I don't want to paint this. I guess the question I am asking a question we are laying down. The question is how are we going to deal with this. Because for me using she using her these kind of things to refer to biological males. Biological females who identified with or aspired to be the other side was a previous societal accommodation. It was a kindness. It was a generosity. But it does not change their evolutionary but very biological status as technically biologically male and female. So do we are we. And so the question theory of evolution gained traction. Yeah. People use gendered pronouns without any difficulty without any awareness of the formal role of sex in human evolution. I don't think that evolutionary biology pertains to the use of pronouns in the English language in any respect. I guess I'm. So. Important. People people mixed gender and sex all the time and I think that's a mistake. Sex I think is what pronouns refer to and when you use alternate sex pronouns for people who are trends that is a generosity that is a kindness. It's like you say that's what situations the sex determines what permanency is and what situation yes the situation of being biologically born into one sex or the other. So that's biological biologicals X chromosomes. Well genitals again there are fine distinctions there but most the time. That's not what we're talking about when we're talking to people on this kind of thing. So I don't check her blood to make sure x y. I don't like I don't see like hold down your pants up. I don't know what pronoun. Thanks. There's a circle right there. Yeah. Yes. Alan. Alan the topic some sort that the final question for you to leave with you. Yes those are we know we just need one on one house these long conversations short there for the environment for the other people who have questions. There one of the arguments I hear on the. For free speech absolutism is the idea that for example if you were to have like a KKK rally you also have like an anti white supremacist counter rally that can many many many times overpower and overpower that and show the message that they have solidarity against that. So what would you say that's a valid message and what would you have any any counter to that particular argument. Sorry as the argument died you like beneath there's like a like for example there's like a white supremacist like KKK rally and you have like the print. Although the third there right there. The idea that if there is an extremist movement there's often like a counter movement which even overpowers it. That's sort of like the argument for the Free Speech absolutism is that if you have like a counter movement that's even more powerful in the end. The fact that the KKK has a platform it diminishes like it is harmful ultimately. Yeah. So of course I think that if there is going to be a KKK rally get as many people as you can. You can't right. That doesn't mean you have to fight the KKK your living room to give a speech here. You know it doesn't mean that you have to invite the KKK on campus. Do. You have anything to say about that. Sorry. I'm kind of running out of steam to be honest. I want to. Get you. This is mainly for Natalie bridges a lot of the different kinds of things that have been touched on already including representation as well as the alt right as well as me maybe trying to be too perfect. So just referencing your views about one of the characters you've created Tabby so I know that you you mentioned that you think that TAVI is liked a lot because of just the appeal of the character. But I find Tobey interesting and appealing because Tommy is someone that would stand up physically to protect people from. Fascists and neo-Nazis and in general. I'm wondering if there is a need to have more of like a Mary Sue like a perfect character that has good arguments as well as being willing to do those kinds of things to try to give somebody representation that they can look up to. That's that's not as flawed as that's the way that TV is right now. Yes. So I personal I mean I do think there is. Yeah. Is there a role for Mary Sue's especially a trans Mary's. What does it all mean that probably I am reluctant to make it myself because I personally find that kind of character boring and the persona I presented myself on YouTube is a persona that has some of my flaws built into it you know. So I think that to me I try to make videos that I would want to watch. And to me part of what's interesting about a persona on the Internet is feeling like a real person is on the other hand a real person who makes mistakes and gets too drunk too often. And you know you know I think things like this I find it more interesting and I kind of host than a perfect NARRATOR As far as Tabby. Yeah I think you're right that people watch people so tabby is a character that invented on my channel who is an anti fat cat girl who goes around with the bat talking about smashing fascists. And the character was sort of intended as a caricature of last young leftist activists with no capacity to convey their ideas effectively to other people by some. Somewhat to my surprise much of my audience just loved this character and ironically that is I think that part of it has you know. I think people don't understand how scary the whole right is to a lot of trans people or to people of color or to you know a lot of these groups that feel just directly physically intimidated by that. And so to have a character who's you know it seems as if seems weird to me that they would want to be represented by this irrational violent person but I think just having to back his character a physical presence as you know it seems to mean something. Therapy. I think we might have time for one more question. Would that be okay. Yeah yeah yeah. Okay. One last quick one. How often do people come to either you say I was going the way of the old right or was going in a very negative direction with hate and your sort of speaking to me as a person who helped me turn a different direction went towards a little bit more compassion. Very often. In my case well with the All right I haven't spoken too much about the art right. It's something like I kind of plan on talking more about this. Yeah. So not so much that that I have had a lot of people like. Like you've kind of red pulled me on trans people blue pink purple whatever. Yeah. But that I've changed their minds and and that they understand trans people for they are much better.

Channel: The Free Speech Club

Views: 153,529

Rating: 4.7936921 out of 5

Keywords: transgender, natalie wynn, contrapoints, natalie wynn parrott, theryn meyer, bridging the divide, political dialogue, vancouver, ubc, theryn meyer contrapoints, university of british columbia, ubc campus, theryn, natalie parrott, incels, politics, sjw, debate, news, ubc campus tour, trevor project, lgbtq youth, january, british columbia, theryn meyer full talk, ubc free speech club, university of toronto, social justice, ubc talk, identity, contrapoints ubc, theyrn meyer ubc, canada

Id: xedSSsQeGL0

Length: 70min 55sec (4255 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 29 2019

Reddit Comments

[u/[deleted]]

Worth noting that this was the event that Natalie agreed to do with Blair White (she backed out) that got heavily whined about on Twitter at the time.

[u/ohshitthisbops]

Oof big yikes to that one guy in the Q&A.

[u/Amblychromatic_Jess]

I know we fawn over how gorg Natalie is, but Theryn is absolutely stunning.

[u/Niauropsaka]

Who else had this as an introduction to Theryn?

[u/grrrzzzt]

the video is interesting but is it really such a good idea to give clicks and views to "the free speech club" (aka "the freedom report" from what I can tell) ? Is it really a good idea in itself to go to these spaces?

[u/michellemage]

Great discussion, your both fantastic. Tried to look up Theryn and ran into a lot of hate videos. I can say she is hated by all the right people, the alt right that hate us all. So that was a great endorsement to me.

PS is Free Speech Activism sponsorship? The questioner seemed be to trans hostile or alt tight.