Compromised: Peter Strzok And The Investigation Of Donald Trump

hello and welcome to today's virtual commonwealth  club program my name is adam lishinsky i'm the   executive editor of fortune magazine and your  moderator for today we'd like to thank the club's   members and donors for making this and all other  virtual programs possible we are grateful for   the continued support and hope others will follow  their example and donate to the club during these   uncertain times today i am joined by peter strzok  a former fbi agent of 22 years and the author of   the new book compromised counter-intelligence and  the threat of donald j trump on august 10 2018   peter was fired from fired following the  release of personal text messages from 2016   between himself and then fbi lawyer lisa  page that disparaged candidate donald trump   but his story is anything but simple he  led the fbi's investigation into both   hillary clinton's private email server and  russia's interference in the 2016 election   drawing the anger of president trump's most  vocal supporters in washington across the country   as well as the president himself in his book peter  draws on lessons from his extensive career in law   enforcement from his role in the russian illegals  case that inspired the tv show the americans   to his service as lead fbi agent on the  mueller investigation to make the case of   foreign interference at the  highest levels of our government   and he grapples with a question that he thinks  should concern every u.s citizen when a president   appears to favor personal and russian interests  over those of our nation has he become a national   security threat we'll be discussing a lot in the  next hour so just a reminder if you would like to   ask a question please submit it in the chat box  i'll see that and i'll ask the question for you   so as we get going uh pete as you told me that  most people other than your parents call you   it's a real pleasure to meet you and let me say  what has become a tradition for people who have   not served their company their country when they  first meet someone who has uh thank you to your   thank you for your service not only  did you serve the fbi but you're also   a veteran of the united states army oh  thank you i appreciate that and uh thanks   to the club for hosting this discussion  and adam it's great to be here with you   great i um i was as i was reading your book which  uh i agree with something that chuck todd said on   meet the press this weekend it's very readable um  it's not exactly a happy read it's a sad read as   a matter of fact but but it goes down nicely the  writing is very clear and as i was formulating my   questions i had already written a question that  you answered at the very end of the book and so   i'll start right there which is why did you write  this book uh because what we're facing right now   is too important to stay silent you know i spent  20 more than 20 years as a counterintelligence   agent at the fbi watching and learning how foreign  adversaries go about go about targeting the united   states and what i saw what we saw in 2016 both  from the russian attacks as well as the response   to those by the trump campaign and then the  administration uh is still going on that that   threat has only grown and i think while you  know there's been all kinds of outrageous uh   things thrown my way and thrown that all folks  who have stood up to tell the truth of what   we're facing right now coming up in november is  too important not to speak out and say something   i was i i take your your reasoning at face  value but if it were me i would say i also   wrote the book to set the record straight so that  the record clearly shows my perspective you that   must have been a motivation as well for you sure  of course it is that's a great point i mean that   you know i very much wanted to create something  that was a historical record of what occurred   there was something that was based on precise uh  dates and events and particularly as we've gotten   into an era of you know sort of a post-truth  environment where you know partisans are slinging   outrageous retellings of things that never  happened i wanted to have a kind of a reference   work a piece where people could go to see exactly  what we did precisely why we did it and what we   were thinking and to have that out there for  for all to see and and you know understand again   what we were doing particularly in 2016 ford  uh but you know what we're facing today as well   and uh i i enjoyed that aspect of your book i also  read andrew mccabe's book and then some of some of   the parts i of both your books that i enjoyed the  most were when you discuss your craft of of being   fbi agents especially when you were younger when  the two of you were younger you can see these sort   of uh emotional energy as opposed to the the the  weight of the topics later in later in your story   um i want to start with the key word in your in  your subtitle because i i i gathered from your   book that it's an important semantic point for  you for people to understand what is meant by   counter intelligence so let me ask you to start  at the highest level explain what that means and   maybe start to answer why i'm belaboring that  point as you did in the book yeah of course so   a lot of people when they think about the fbi they  think about crime fighters you know going back to   the 40s and 50s all the movies that are made about  chasing gangsters and bank robbers and it's very   much centered around this idea of criminals who  are violating the law that we go and investigate   and we build a case with evidence that we take  into court and we put them away intelligence   work is very very different from that and when i  say even just the word intelligence work people   have some idea of spies but what i mean when  i say that is foreign adversaries the russian   intelligence services certainly the chinese but  any other nation on this earth are actively day   in and day out conducting operations in the united  states to clandestinely get to our secrets and to   influence our behavior so counterintelligence  is the government's response to that and the   fbi has the lead role in the united states so i  spent a career with a ton of people in the fbi   trying to understand what foreign adversaries  are doing here what the soviet union and then   russia is doing in the united states what china  is doing to both get into the workings of our   government and influence the way we're behaving  and that has nothing to do with a criminal trial   it involves intelligence which is classified it  involves a lot of uncertainty that you don't tend   to see in the black and white of a prosecution  but it's a very different aspect to the fbi's   work than the traditional sort of criminal things  that people think of when they think of the fbi   but you but a counterintelligence investigation  can lead to criminal proceedings is that correct   that's absolutely right and you know there is  this prior to 9 11 there was what cloak really   is called the wall where there were intelligence  operations that the fbi did and there are criminal   ones and there was a big division to make sure  that we weren't moving things that were classified   or not admissible to the other side but of course  in national security matters there is very much a   dual the two sides of a coin on the one hand  we're looking at intelligence and trying to   understand what the foreign adversary is doing  but at the same time that same activity might   involve u.s persons who are engaging in criminal  activity if russia recruits a spy in the cia   or fbi that spy more than likely is breaking the  law so while we're looking at it to understand the   counterintelligence implications at the same time  we're going to be trying to build a criminal case   finding evidence that we can use identifying  the elements of the crime and building towards   that prosecution those go hand in glove you can't  separate those two out from one another so that's   absolutely a great point they are they're both  together in national security crimes can you have   one without the other in other words can you have  a counterintelligence investigation that uncovers   wrongdoing but that does not rise to the  level of criminal behavior but it was   worth doing the investigation anyway but and  then what is my is my real question then what   uh of course you can and that's uh that's  the prevalent in most cases that is in fact   what happens we will see there are some things  that are purely counterintelligence if we're   watching you know a hypothetical of a russian  intelligence officer in the united states   we're just watching him to understand  together intelligence to see what he's   doing day in and day out to see the things he's  interested in how he works who he's talking to   that's purely intelligence because he may be here  under diplomatic immunity we're never going to be   able to prosecute him even if we wanted to but at  the same time there are many interactions that we   see where it's not clear whether or not it's  criminal in nature and even if we think it is   i mean more often than not you get to a point  where you believe that yeah there's probably   something untoward here going on even something  illegal going on but we're just not going to be   able to prove that out in a court of law and  i should add that's i mean that is happens a   lot in counter-intelligence but it also happens  in straight criminal work where you know as an   investigator that somebody's broken the law but at  the same time for whatever reason you know you're   probably never going to get to the point  of being able to prove it and that's   that's a frustrating thing that agents come to  to to live with as part of their job but but my   my my assumption and this is all highly relevant  to the to the thesis of your book is that   counterintelligence investigations that don't rise  to the level of criminal misconduct that aren't   litigated in court in any way can still be  referred to other branches of the government   for them to act on to do what it is that they do  in other words to try to counteract that threat   that's absolutely right so if you look at you  know some uh you know take for example the chinese   hacking activity they were doing a variety of  things with they're engaged in very intrusive sort   of actions with u.s cyber systems and there was a  concerted us response that was broad in nature i   mean you saw things and you see it today even with  you know russian sanction activities for example   if the department of treasury sanctions an entity  well that's you know that isn't the fbi that isn't   the cia that isn't even the department of justice  so all these different departments in the u.s   government have various tools that they can bring  to bear on what a foreign nation is doing and   that also points out something that it's really  important to have a whole a government approach   any individual agency working on its own is  never going to be as effective as something   that's centrally managed out of the white house  that's kind of coordinating a broad response   to activity that we see day in and day out from  foreign nations okay great so um i want to come   to the main the main point of your book and  i want to remind our our viewers that uh that   you can ask questions of peter strzok also by  popping them into the chat box and now and all   and i'll read them um the title of your book  is compromised you believe that the current   president of the united states was compromised  as a candidate for the for president and then   continued to be compromised by the russians as  president make make the case for that if you would   yeah i do believe that he is and look i i  recruited people to work for the united states for   more than 20 years and i defended against those  within the u.s who had been recruited themselves   how that works what motivate motivates a person  takes a variety of forms i think when you look at   president trump what leaps to mind is his primary  vulnerability or his financial entanglements   things that and i'm not talking about legitimate  business interaction i'm talking about allegations   going back decades of dealing with potentially  laundering money uh you know allegedly working   with russian organized crime money russian money  connected to oligarchs and indeed potentially   money michael cohen asserts something you know  financial transactions that he assumed millions   of dollars uh in a real estate sale that was a  payment for putin but it's important to remember   that that sort of how you leverage somebody how  you impact their behavior takes a variety of forms   so certainly we've talked about the monetary  examples that but they're things that go into   that like ideology and when you look at president  trump's affinity you know in the recent bob   woodward recordings where he's talking about how  his affinity towards totalitarians like putin and   you know kim jong-un and the in erdogan and  turkey and how he has naturally gets along with   them there's clearly an ideological affinity there  that impacts his behavior there are also coercive   things whether or not you know whether you believe  again what michael cohen says about tapes in las   vegas or what moscow may have recorded earlier on  and then finally ego things that that people play   in day in and day out and if you look at the the  cauliad with uh ukrainian leader zielinski clearly   there is a sort of playing to that ego that  resonates but all of these things together are   there and particularly things that are hidden  and that's where the financial aspects are so   important those are the types of leverage that can  be brought to bear to influence his behavior and   i believe are being done today and and i think i  grappled with this uh reading reading your book   and let me try to summarize the you know your  point and and my reaction to it which is that   um you've explained how he how you believe  he is compromised and you've also described   that for anyone to see his behavior that  would suggest the actions of someone who   is compromised his saying nice things about  putin in public while disparaging his own   intelligence services and that list goes  on and on and you document it very well   in the book but in the in your book at least  or in the and in the public sphere by others   no one proves these points that he is due is in  fact doing these things for a reason and and i   find that sort of i don't know how to put it  intellectually troubling i don't know how to   close that circle help you know what i'm saying  so so help me out there yeah absolutely and so   i understand that's unsatisfying from an outside  uh observer you know there are a couple of things   that go into that you know certainly there's stuff  that's classified that is inappropriate for me to   talk about nevertheless things have come out you  know the mueller report talks about in the example   i use is when trump on the campaign trail in 2016  talks about to the assembled masses at a campaign   stop that he has no financial involvement of any  sort of russia and expands on that quite a bit and   you know makes it very unequivocal that there is  no relationship at the very same moment michael   cohen's in and working with russians trying to set  up a trump tower moscow that they want to give the   entire top floor to putin well the minute trump  says that he's not telling the truth and vladimir   putin knows he's not telling the truth and  presumably having that truth come out trump knows   full well that that would damage him and vladimir  putin knows if he were to make some announcement   that oh hey in fact i'm busy negotiating for trump  tower and what he just said was a lie that would   hurt trump on the campaign trail so there are  things that are now in the public domain that   are clear indicators on the one side that that  potential is there and then what you have to do   is you know and i understand because there isn't  some there isn't an interview of putin on the   record saying yes in fact i had this leverage and  i told him he needed to do this or else i would   make it public but that's not the way this course  of leverage works the best sort of relationship   between somebody and the person they're trying  to influence is they never have to tell them to   do anything because that knowledge is implicitly  known and i think when you look and yeah there's   that gap but then you also have to line up all  these inexplicable things and you talk about   some of them but the list is huge and not only is  it large but they're things that absolutely have   no positive benefit to the u.s national security  so things like the the gru russian bounties on the   heads of american soldiers in afghanistan when  you look at his refusal to make any statement   about the attempted assassination of navalny a  domestic political opponent of putin when you   look at the silence of the belarusian protesters  who are yearning for democracy when you look at   questioning our commitment to nato when you look  at moving troops out of germany the the things he   said about montenegro and not being sure about  because they're very aggressive people whether   they'd come to their defense there's no good u.s  foreign policy reason to take those positions   but there's every advantage for the russian and  the russian perspective and their geopolitical   interest to do it so there is this inferential  leap but the only explanation for some of   those you have to ask why you also have to ask  who's putting those ideas in his head but that   you when you when you look at all this  unexplainable behavior when you look at   all these vulnerabilities which clearly exists  there is no other conclusion that you can make   well i i take your argument but i'll i'll give  you one this is a man who violates the the norms   of decency pretty much every day that he wakes up  and gets dressed in the morning and so some of the   things you described described violate the norms  of decency disparaging our allies disparaging   americans for god's sakes i don't think you and  i are about the same age i don't think we've seen   an american president do that ever and so all  i'm saying is in in terms of playing devil's   advocate he violates norms all the time so what's  so special about the norms that you're describing   he's violating in comparison the difference is the  motivation behind it look i mean he can be doing   any number of things fighting release of financial  records because he has personal criminal exposure   all these things are part of the internal dynamic  of the us body politic what makes this difference   different is that you have an outside power a  hostile foreign nation that is bringing to bear   their leverage into this decision-making process  so it's one thing if trump wants to say something   that's crude or he's fighting the exposure of some  sort of criminal activity or he's doing anything   that's kind of shattering this normative behavior  that we've come to expect but what's different and   certainly from a counterintelligence perspective  is the outsized power and leverage that a foreign   power has into his behavior and that's something  we just haven't seen at any time in our modern   presidential history okay good great so let's do a  thought experiment let's pretend we're not talking   about the president of the united states let's  pretend we're not talking about a narrative where   your investigation and uh and the investigation  of other people was interrupted harassed stopped   stymied in in all sorts of ways that you described  in the book but let's pretend we're talking   instead about citizen x what would have been  the remedy had had everything you just described   been carried out to its conclusion but not  involving the president of the united states   well i think there's no citizen x who could wield  the power of the executive to stop something from   happening and i think another point i'd make  is like look we struggled with this idea of   you know who is the fbi to go investigating the  president i mean you know from a very high level   perspective from a constitutional perspective  the fbi is part of the executive branch can   investigate the chief of that branch  the president as the elected head of our   nation sets foreign policy he sets the agenda  and the goals and you know clearly it should be   the case that no man including the  president is immune from you know   sanctioned for breaking the law and but how do you  do that in a way that is you know consistent with   our system of governance where the american  public has confidence and belief that what   the fbi is doing was appropriately sanctioned and  justified and it wasn't just you know in the dark   shadow of j hoover running out and doing things so  i think the average case of somebody who we might   be looking at in the same set of circumstances  wouldn't have this kind of very heavy weighty   overlay of you know sort of mandate of authority  and appropriateness of authority that we found   when we started looking at the president but i  just want to understand in terms of justice if   if you had uncovered a citizen doing these things  would you have con would you have made an attempt   to prove that they were in fact doing the bidding  of this foreign power and then prosecuted them   uh absolutely we would have pursued an  investigation to understand it and if the facts   merited prosecution if we could demonstrate that  a crime had been violated and can make that case   then we would have gone to doj of course doj not  the fbi makes the decision of whether or not to   prosecute somebody but in those same cases with a  average citizen had we found indications that they   had broken the law that's absolutely something  that would go to doj and in fact that i mean   that is what director mueller did that is what  the special counsel's office did setting aside   trump if you look at paul manafort rick gates mike  flynn george papadopoulos you know roger stone the   list goes on and on and on that's what that was  and so the question the difference then becomes   you know what makes the president different and is  that good bad right wrong that's those are tough   questions i'm going to come to viewer questions  in just a moment but you raised something that   for me a little bit ago which is a burning  question which is which is trump's taxes um   people speculate that if if we saw  his taxes it might reveal some of the   allegedly illegal behavior that you talked about  that has been speculated on before and potentially   things including the russians so why do what the  the issue of his taxes either don't appear in your   book or barely appear in your appear in your book  can you address that yes two reasons i mean one   i don't want to get into specific details about  what individual item of financial information we   may or may not have gotten i also don't know what  occurred after i left the special counsel's office   but i think looking at all this financial data  that exists there it is clear that he is fighting   tooth and nail at every step of the way asking  for injunctive relief at the next higher level of   whatever court the decision is at to prevent that  material from being released it's not complicated   the answer is right there he is not fighting this  because he just has some deep-seated belief and   financial privacy of everybody he's fighting it  because he perceives a threat in there i think he   perceives a criminal threat in there setting that  aside i believe that that information also hides   a great deal of information about involvement of  illicit russian monies whether through organized   crime or directly tying into the government  of russia that again is the sort of thing   that because he doesn't want it known creates  leverage and an ability to influence his actions   you said i think are you are you speculating or  are you commenting on your on the knowledge that   you have uh both so there are things again and  i don't want to get too cute because then if i'm   confirming things you know i'm essentially saying  them so i don't want to sit here and give you any   detail of saying yes i know this and not that but  again i'd point to the public record and again   recently what michael cohen is saying about these  real estate sales you know this one property in   florida which was sold for a grossly exaggerated  amount that michael cohen says he believed was a   payment from vladimir putin to donald trump  looking at that as a tangible example when   you scope back and look at the trump financial  empire with a heavy involvement in real estate   dealings where you can play all kinds of games  with valuation if you look at licensing where   you can play all kinds of games with valuation  these are traditional avenues that are very   um open to potential abuse by for money laundering  and other sorts of nefarious activity so without   saying yes i know that occurs or you know making  any sort of allegation that i'm not prepared to   either back up with fact that isn't known um you  know the best i can do is kind of point to that   those opportunities and potential things and  then point to the public record that more   and more is coming out and and given that you now  unfortunately are an expert on the subject of how   information leaks in washington um can you  speculate on why we why all these years now   into it five years essentially into this uh era  we still haven't seen the president's taxes tax   returns uh i can't and that's a problem i  mean the the issue again is setting aside   criminal activity that may or may not be in  there everybody focuses on the things that the   president either lies about or doesn't disclose  and usually it's in the context of his ethical   obligations that you know he should divest himself  for certain things or it isn't appropriate to be   you know profiting off of businesses at  the same time he's leading the government   that isn't most people when they say that  understand that but i'd ask look at that   from a counterintelligence perspective there  is something there that he perceives as harmful   now put yourself in russia's position if i can  use my intelligence service to intercept your   phone calls to intercept your emails to sneak in  and get those financial records to recruit people   around you or place people in your orbit if i can  use all those tools of intelligence and statecraft   i'm going to be able to get to that information  in a way that the media can't in a way that you   know the new york attorney general can't and  when i know that trump still doesn't want that   information to come out so again that gives me  leverage and that is the kind of thing every time   you look at something and say wow he lied or he's  trying to hide that or cover it up think about   that from an intelligence perspective and the  counterintelligence vulnerability that represents   all right i'm going to read a question  uh from from our viewers uh in your book   you report that the russians quote pulled some  of their punches end quote in 2016 that is   they didn't do everything they could have  done to help trump what were those punches   so i went as far as the bureau's pre-publication  review would let me in describing that and i'm   glad that they were able to let me say what i did  many of those things are you know classified and   appropriately so because if we think they're going  to come at us again we need to be able to prepare   our defenses against that and blunt those attacks  if and when they come i would say that there has   been some reporting you know microsoft just put  out a recent report about some of the activity   they had seen from the russians as well as the  chinese and others but they talk about some of   the detail about how russia has started you know  changing the ways in which they're attacking data   systems going to brute force attacks rather than  spear phishing now clearly that that that is a   type of activity that isn't designed to be  hidden they want when you do that it's going to   be apparent that you're there but they do talk to  some things which point to deeper truths you know   they talk about how actors are changing out ip  addresses and the places they're coming from you   know is 10 20 times a day so a greater effort to  misattribute and hide where these are coming from   and i think there's also been public reporting  about they their advancement in being able to   make it harder to attribute actions into the hands  of the russians and so when you take that sort of   behavior and you couple it with things that have  come out about the various successful intrusions   into state databases and voting systems  targeting of hardware that's the sort of   um sort of indicators on the periphery that  point to you know some of the deeper concerns   and certainly it was a vulnerability in 2016  remains a vulnerability today because frankly   we haven't had a whole of government approach to  really vigorously combat this in a unified manner   and and you mentioned something would you just  speak briefly to you you had you described in   the book you're very bitter departure from from  the fbi and you describe it in some detail uh are   you surprised that your book passed muster  with the pre-publication review by the fbi   no because i took a lot of pain i mean i you  know i spent my career a large chunk of it   you know investigating uh media leaks and people  who you know inadvertently disclose classified   information so i knew where that line was and  i took a lot of effort to make sure what i was   saying was backed up with what was already  in the public domain i was frustrated i mean   look they have by regulation 30 days business  days to do it i submitted my book in december   of last year it took about five or six months  to get cleared out so that was very frustrating   i wish i was talking to you in may and not in  september but you know it is what it is but uh   you know that i i wasn't surprised that it cleared  in interesting um now i'm going to read another   question and i'll ask you to define a term that's  mentioned in the question the ssci report mentions   that a former fbi director was working for a  russian company in 2016. what are your thoughts   on former high-level intel officials working for  foreign actors and what is that what is the ssci   yeah so that's the senate select committee on  intelligence there's an intelligence committee   in the senate and the house ssci which is  commonly abbreviated into [ __ ] um just   sort of a pronunciation released a thousand page  report and what's interesting was you know this   was a committee led by republicans and every one  of those republicans signed on to the conclusions   of this thousand page report which just presents  a damning counterintelligence perspective   but there's absolutely from time and memorial  that foreign intelligence services and foreign   governments try and leverage particularly  former government officials to work with them   because they know that they have entree into still  existing government people in government they   understand how government work and they're going  to try and use that to advance their own agendas   what i get really concerned about is you know  take somebody like rudy giuliani well they just   he's been running around in ukraine in particular  trying to track down information about joe biden   as it turns out just last week the treasury  sanctioned somebody by the name of durkhach saying   he was an active russian agent i mean he's  ukrainian but he was an active russian agent for   over 10 years 10 years and this is our the trump  administration's department of the treasury saying   that in writing in a public setting and that's  the same person that rudy giuliani is making tv   shows and getting information from trying to build  you know what i believe is a complete propaganda   disinformation campaign to try and tar uh biden  and yet this america's mayor you know from from   9 11 standing there at ground zero is a symbol of  strength who's suddenly been turned into this tool   of russian disinformation in a way that i i hope  he doesn't understand and if he does understand it   gosh i hope he's backing away from these sort  of connections but that's always a concern   and that's always something that any foreign  government certainly hostile foreign governments   are going to try and exploit but by the way would  you know you discussed very briefly in the book   your uh your political leanings or your your  political background including your family's   political background such as it is and it's a  once upon a time that would have been considered   as sort of normal american experience just tell  our viewers what what what i'm talking about   um sure so you know it's interesting i was born  you know into a republican family my father   grew up he was born on a dairy farm in central  wisconsin joined the army to you know get out of   the dairy farm in wisconsin my mother was born on  a tobacco farm right in the north carolina south   carolina border and again went into teaching  overseas at military schools to get away and   get you know out abroad and you know they met and  ended up traveling the world for their for their   lives but that sort of you know what's interesting  to me is that sort of the image of me that has   been portrayed by a lot of the kind of partisan  and hyper-inflated murdoch empire and others is   one of you know some you know silver spoon fed you  know grew up in the hamptons bastion of liberalism   and the reality is something very opposite it was  a you know conservative upbringing a law and order   upbringing i went into the military father  followed my father who was a career military   army officer and this idea of you know national  security of a strong national defense the you know   the values and ideals of america were you know for  most of my life something that was very strongly   associated with the republican party and i'm not  saying democrats you know there weren't democrats   who did exactly the same thing but when you  think of that sort of belief that's very   much until very recently it seems something  that was was very much a republican value   yeah i'm going to read another question pete it's  what is the fbi doing to confront the rising tide   of white supremacist violence in america is this  something that worries you as a former agent   uh it worries me a great deal and i when i started  in the bureau i actually started as an analyst and   i was working domestic terrorism and even this  was 1996 and we had come on they'd ramped up the   bureau's efforts after the oklahoma city bombing  with tim mcveigh and others had you know blown up   the federal building the murrow building  in oklahoma city there has always been this   tension of the expression of the first amendment  protected speech with violent actors particularly   white supremacists and how the balance of what the  bureau should do and how intrusive they should be   in investigating as opposed to protecting all  those you know things enshrined in our first   amendment i'm really concerned about the way that  time after time particularly when you look at   these casualty shootings the number and prevalence  of people who have some link to white nationalism   or white supremacist type ideologies i know it  concerns the fbi i know they're looking at that   it concerns me as well that sometimes when i see  the political levels of the department of justice   advancing antifa and other elements in ahead  of some of these other demonstrable historical   motivations but i know that the fbi is taking a  hard investigative look at trying to understand   that and getting ahead of the threat but it  worries me a lot uh a viewer asks the following   question and i think in an admiral admirably  polite way it's an important question and   important topic can you explain why your texts  meaning your text messages should not have   people questioning your partisanship and the  the this viewer is referring to your the your   think now famous texts that uh basically said  you you didn't think much of candidate trump   yeah absolutely and that's a great question and i  understand why people would ask that question and   the fact that matter is this you know first  fbi employees have opinions each and every   one of us has a private political opinion and  we talk about that to people who are you know   outside of a work environment the second point  is that all our structures set up and my what i   experienced day in day out was that when people  show up at the door they check those beliefs at   the door and so it's not only what you do but  keep in mind you're part you have co-workers   you have a hierarchy of people where this is all  baked in and even given all that i can understand   by looking at that somebody might have concern  and the fact of the matter is that the inspector   general did not one but two investigations with  like more than 15 attorneys and investigators   where they literally went through every text  i wrote every email i wrote every chat i wrote   interviewed scores of people going back  to my roommate at quantico for god's sakes   and at the end of all that concluded that they  had no evidence either documentary or testimonial   from any of this that mine or anybody else's  actions were based on an improper political basis   so i understand reading those why somebody might  be concerned but then if you look at what was done   to verify that the exhaustive way they looked at  it and again this is that isn't even considering   u.s attorneys who looked at this congressional  committees who looked at this media investigative   reporters who dug into it consistently the  answer has been universally clear that what   we did our actions my behavior were done for the  right reasons and weren't based on any sort of   improper political basis you know you um if if i  could if i could push you a little bit you you've   been accused of being biased against donald trump  the the and when you describe when you answer that   you say your response is i have personal beliefs  of course like everyone else i checked them at at   the door um as a journalist and i i i i'll you  may be amused to know i've given i've spoken to   a sixth grade class about this they said to me  what's bias i said everyone's biased it's not   if you're biased it's what you do it's how you act  on the bias and i only bring it up because i think   for understandable reasons you don't want to use  that word you don't want to say yes i'm biased i   have personal beliefs but i'm also a professional  do you want to react to that at all no i think   that's a great point and look we fought you know  the fbi was bringing in implicit bias training law   enforcement is doing that particularly in the  in race relations and you know that becomes a   particularly important area to think about do we  have cognitive bias do we have unacknowledged you   know kind of implicit bias and how do we make  sure that we're acting in an objective way so   i take that point you know what's interesting  and one thing i would also respond to you know   at the end of the day you're right it's absolutely  how you act externally whatever is going on in   your mind and to that end you know another data  point one of those ig looks said that you know   when it came to investigating hillary clinton in  the email her use of a private email server the   ig found put this in writing that i was one of the  most aggressive on the team pushing to investigate   that so you know clearly that was not in clinton's  interest clearly that was advantageous to trump if   you look at the actions that i and others in the  fbi took in the fall of 2016 none of what we were   doing with trump was public and had any of us me  if i had wanted to influence it had we gone to the   press or to congress and talked about our cases  on manafort and flynn and papadopoulos and carter   page and all these other folks that would have  been really damaging i mean horribly damaging to   can't then candidate trump and none of that came  out and contrast that with what came out with then   candidate clinton and that was very public and  that was very damaging so to all these folks who   say well you know there's this plot against trump  or you were trying to work against him the reality   the historical record is that we did everything  truly everything we were doing in that time frame   served to help trump and to hurt clinton and  it that's a dispositive test i mean there there   is no other way to walk away from that set of  facts and come away with any other conclusion   you know your your training taught you that when  when given a when faced with a tough assignment   you you you not only accept it but you ins you  accept it enthusiastically enthusiastically i   mean that's what a soldier does it's what  a a badass fbi agent does would you advise   an agent 10 years younger than yourself right now  getting involved in an investigation that clearly   is going to have political ramifications to try  to find something else to keep themselves busy   instead nope dive in dive in that's why  we're there you know big cases big headaches   small cases you know small headaches but  it doesn't matter that is the calling   in my opinion you know the more fraught with  whatever the case may be harm political exposure   that is the kind of thing that should rise  to the top of the list that should be the   ultimate calling for any good agent or analyst  or investigator to want to work on that to want   to understand it and the greater the obstacles the  stronger the drive should be to to drive dive into   that you made an important point in your book that  i've thought about a lot covering silicon valley   you said that the digital media social media has  changed the game of of of counter intelligence   and of a spycraft of tradecraft in  in the in the intelligence business   it i take that point i want to ask  you a difficult question about that   do you think that this horribly corrosive  environment we have in our in our country today   was it always there or is it exacerbated by by  social media in your professional opinion both of   those i think it was always there i think social  media has created an environment where people   can self-select the truth and things that they  want to believe to reinforce that belief we're   well past the stage where you know your options  were you know walter cronkite or peter jennings   and you had two options to get your news you  can go out now in a social media environment and   self-select all those things that reinforce the  beliefs that you have and that you want to believe   and as a result you know a you really believe  it and b that schism that ability that kind of   enhancement of kind of this polarization of belief  on social media is exactly the sort of environment   that the russians really understood and they were  they were onto this before anybody in the united   states was understanding the power of being able  to use that to divide and enhance poor gasoline on   these divisions and so the hardest thing if you're  somebody who has a strong set of beliefs that is   looking at things that reinforce it to then come  in and say well you know the russians are behind   this well you know that's offensive no i this is  what i believe whatever it is and i don't care   what the russians are saying or aren't saying but  we really you know that has been a game changer   certainly in the social dynamic outside  of anything the fbi does but absolutely   it's been a game changer within the counter  intelligence and intelligence arena other than   high-level leadership do you see any  way to walk this back in other words to   improve the improve the climate to where americans  i i've just in the last few days i've been exposed   to what i understand what you uh are exposed to on  twitter just by my having posted that i'm going to   be interviewing you i find it profoundly saddening  and it makes me not want to look at twitter   um anyway any do you have any any  thoughts for hope on where we go from here   yeah i mean i think twitter is always going to be  a little bit of a cesspool because i think anytime   you can kind of have an unattributed conversation  that's going to uh encourage our lesser angels   but what we need i i believe i still believe  in the fundamental nature of the american ideal   i believe in the goodness of the american  people i believe that we are stronger   by what unites us then divides us but i think  that has to come from the top we have not   chosen a leader that is seeking to emphasize  those qualities we saw the leader from his   inaugural address talked about division talked  about strife talk about talked about conflict   and that there was a fight and that  one side was pitted against another   if we are going to overcome these i mean we have  people protesting we had protests in 2016 but now   we have protests where people are picking up guns  and engaging lethal violence against each other   if we are to change we must have leadership that  is going to bring out the things that unite us   rather than playing up those things that divide  us and it really matters a president matters and   makes a difference in that dialogue and if we have  any hope of kind of bridging these differences   we've got to have different leadership  than what we have now to be able to do that   a viewer writes the the durham investigation what  do you see as the purpose of this investigation   who is being investigated and do you see yourself  as a target and please tell everyone what what   the durham investigation is sure so the as  i understand it the durham investigation was   something you know broadly an investigation  of the investigators it was something that   the attorney general uh selected uh john  durham who's a u.s attorney out of connecticut   to take a look at the genesis and the origins  of the crossfire hurricane investigation which   was the initial case we had into the russian  offer of assistance to the trump campaign   and i just want to interrupt i just want to  interrupt you to tell everybody listening that   that that you named that that investigate you gave  that investigation its code name and it came out   of a rolling stone song which was very amusing  anyway i'm sorry to interrupt you it did out   of a gray and it was more prescient than i could  ever have imagined but look i i don't i am certain   that having been there from the genesis of these  investigations and knowing how they came to be   and what we were doing that it is exactly as the  inspector general report describes he took a look   at that and there is no i am convinced i think  that political levels at the department of justice   and at the white house want some nebulous dark  whispered investigation that they can point to   about some ill-defined nefarious activity that  took place to spy on the campaign of the president   to undermine the presidency which is nonsense and  so i think my sense is they want that existing out   there so they can use as a political foil as  we approach the elections you know again i am   confident i did nothing wrong let alone anything  illegal nor am i aware of anything done by the   people around me either above me next to me or  below me that represents improper and certainly   not illegal activity so i haven't been interviewed  i don't know what their scope is but i just there   are things that have occurred and particularly  you know the fact that uh john durham's primary   deputy a career prosecutor quit the team last week  it gives me a lot of concern and a lot of pause   because it joins this list of people you know  four three or four prosecutors and roger stone   prosecution the lead prosecutor on general  flynn's prosecution all who have quit the work   they're doing at the department of justice because  their integrity their code of conduct internally   did not allow them to continue this work  that's unprecedented and it's really worrisome   and for somebody who's inside the government  to see that it's unprecedented it's hard for   me to convey the severity and alarm that i feel  when i see that sort of mass resignation of good   people of conscience simply walking away  and saying i can't be part of this anymore   what is your take on the status of the fbi  and the rest of the intelligence community   and i'm asking you what is the morale of the  people and what's the prognosis if you will   there's no question this is a challenging  time i mean i am i have said before and i   will say again that the women and men of  the fbi that i worked with that i know now   they are fiercely independent they are  fearless and they're going to do their job   and uphold the oath they took to the constitution  having said that there's no way that any fbi   investigator can hear the statements coming out  of the attorney general and not have that have a   chilling impact on the work that they're doing day  in and day out and it's not just the department of   justice if you look at things that people in the  department of state people within the department   of defense whether it's colonel venman or the  various career diplomats that have been just   pilloried within the department of state  for simply standing up and telling the truth   all of this has a deeply chilling effect of the  professional government worker that again i think   a lot of this is holding but i am deeply worried  that another four years of a trump presidency is   really going to destroy in a very lasting way  a lot of what we have built up over decades and   decades and decades of creating an independent  professional government civil service pete let me   let me play devil's devil's advocate with you on  that there's a as you know a large percentage of   the electorate supports the president passionately  and so they hear you say that and they're going to   say you know what i'm glad these smarty pants are  getting their comeuppance they're the ones who are   responsible for all the bad things that have  happened in this country for all these decades   that you that you so that you so glorify react to  that if you would i i think that's a a response   that is getting fed by certain partisan elements  in the media and in politics look every single   person wherever they are in the united states they  get their mail delivered by a u.s postal service   employee if they go to their local national park  that is being worked and cleaned and maintained   by a u.s park service employee if they go to  their local military base their career both dod   uniformed soldiers as well as civilians who  are there making sure that the national defense   is maintained day in and day out this kind  of notion of some faceless evil deep state   bureaucracy that exists in dc that's not the  federal government the federal government   exists throughout our nation and does all these  core services when you show up at the va hospital   to get treatment that's being done by a government  servant so all these people are sitting here   to serve the american public and not only that  they're being they're doing that in a way that's   selfless and professional and all of these folks  every government employee that i came across was   really dedicated i mean it sounds corny but the  service to the nation was a strong motivating and   noble motivator and i i'm disappointed that people  would so readily buy into some of this really   opportunistic you know kind of partisan spin on  what government is because it's simply not true   thanks for that here's another question from  a viewer what what can we as normal citizens   do in the next few weeks to help  ensure a free and fair election   uh vote i mean i think some of it is ask educate  yourself about what's going on but the biggest   thing you can do and don't talk to your friends  that are going to vote like you because you've   tuned in and you care enough to you're already  registered you're listening to me to talk right   now go and find ways to get people who would not  ordinarily vote to get them registered make sure   they're registered well and that and i don't  care vote for a republican vote for a democrat   i don't care who you're doing but get out there  and exercise that right to select our government   look at how you can help in polling places  traditionally our poll workers tend to be seniors   they tend to be at higher risk  of exposure to covet and other   you know illnesses particularly going into  this november there is a need for poll workers   get engaged in your community and again i don't  care where you fall get out there and make sure   because it is not with i've never said this before  and many people say oh this is the most important   election of our lifetime i have never said this in  my 50 years this election is more important than   any that i can think of in my life and that the  projected issues and ramification of that so just   get involved with your community get outside the  circle of people that you ordinarily interact with   and get folks to the polls a viewer asks a  question that takes us back into the story   of something important thing you talked about  in the book that we haven't discussed yet   would you comment on comey's announcement this was  the then fbi director james comey's announcement   about hillary clinton's email investigation  11 days before the election back in 2016.   now this person's asking about the the one right  before the election you also wrote at length about   the previous announcement he made why don't you  talk about both quickly yeah so i mean that the   the one right before the election at the you  know immediately at the end of october was one   that was profoundly debated i mean those were very  gut-wrenching um debates that we had advising you   know and turning around whether or not to do it  and advising director comey i think it's important   that you frame that and and in the decision to do  that you have to look at that in the context of   his july 5th speech and so and the reason i say  that is i think that that july 5th speech puts   us on a path where there was no other alternative  come the end of october for director comey to make   that speech because he had already gone out to  the american public announced what he had found   he had told congress that we'd closed the case and  when you do that you create a path you narrow your   path to something where if something comes up and  none of us foresaw anthony weiner's laptop walking   in the door but you put yourself on the path when  that comes up that you know using director comey's   um you know he's spoken about this at length  you know whether to to conceal or whether to   tell the truth and one was bad and one was worse  and that's true i think i agree with that decision   that having done what had occurred in july that  we were that he had made that decision and i   initially in october fought against it i disagreed  i didn't think he should make the announcement and   then the group was debating it ultimately comey's  arguments i was persuaded that he needed to do it   but the the original sin if you will was that july  5th speech and at the time we certainly debated it   we went through that speech up down left and  right every comma every word was scrubbed   but i don't think any of us looked at that  from the perspective necessarily of all the   ways that that might change the decision-making  environment later in the fall and i certainly   think you know in retrospect and it's unfair  because you know hindsight being 2020 is it's   it's unfair to make any judgment but i do wish  knowing what i know now going back into that may   time frame that i would have you know advocated  differently perhaps not to have made that speech   um question from a viewer as a counterpoint to  white supremacist violence i am curious about your   attitude toward the antifa movement scapegoat myth  real concern question marks following all those   words uh i don't know and the problem is i don't  know because i believe that there are partisan   influences involved in shaping what is being  said about what is occurring and not occurring   look violence of any kind of any motivation is  wrong it needs to be stopped it can't be tolerated   and to the extent it's illegal it needs to be  prosecuted at the same time we absolutely should   be allowing and permitting lawful protests  to have what you saw in lafayette square   where the president you know before he even  comes out attorney general bar there using force   chemical agents tear gas riot control geared soul  or you know national guardsmen and other members   to clear out protesters so the president can walk  across stand in front of a church and hold up a   bible for a campaign photo is disgusting that's  antithetical to what we should be doing to allow   proper protest but there's a clear line unlawful  behavior whatever the motivation isn't okay that   is something we shouldn't tolerate and should  prosecute if it violates the law my concern is i   can't tell you i have no personal assurance that i  have an understanding of what's being motivated by   antifa what's being motivated by either the white  supremacist the right the boogaloos or anything   else i don't have a confidence that what is being  portrayed as the fact between the balance of all   these various fortresses is in fact accurate and  that's concerning americans should have accurate   information about what is driving the particularly  the violent protests but there's a sense of   proportionality right there must be an executive i  i i it's naive to start a question by saying there   must be wouldn't there be a team of people in  the fbi who would have a sense of proportionality   in other words to have a professional  opinion that either the white supremacists   or left-wing violent protesters however you wanted  to find them is a bigger threat than the other   well i i think clearly there are people who  are investigating that and looking at and   have the data you know we know what motivated  all these various violent attacks on these   various crimes to the extent we're able to  identity msa we i mean that's an old habit   that is able to identify and say okay this is what  we know about the perpetrator or the subject and   what motivated them that's a very different  thing from when that data then goes up into   outside the kind of law enforcement role of  what the fbi does and enters the political realm   and an area of concern for example is some of  the information coming out of the intelligence   office of the department of homeland security  where whistleblowers now are saying that he was   encouraged to you know any number of things some  of it was on the state side you know play down the   threat from russia and encourage that of china  and others but that same office was involved in   prior activity where they were emphasizing antifa  and certain elements of protesters and minimizing   that of others and that sort of political  influence i mean it's one thing if you're ignoring   intelligence it's one thing if you have a pdb that  you don't read it's a much worse thing if you're   sitting there saying ignore intelligence or change  intelligence that's a really really dangerous path   to start going down one is pdb you're talking  about the president's daily brief one one is   incompetent the other is venal what might be a  way to summarize what you said i think that's   i think uh we're nearing the end of our time i  want to take us in a slightly more fun direction   a writer brings up the way that you an anecdote  you talk about near the beginning of your book   can you talk about your case that you worked  on as an fbi agent that inspired the television   show the americans it's an incredible story that  few people seem to know about uh sure and it was   a great case so in this case there were a number  of people uh 10 folks when we finally arrested   all of them russian intelligence officers or  spies under deep deep cover i mean they weren't   affiliated they weren't even in most cases  russians they had assumed canadian identities or   others based on you know a canadian infant who had  died and who some russian then soviet officer had   pulled that sort of biographical data and that  was matched up with them as they were training   deep inside the soviet union and then their  job was to ultimately infiltrate into the   united states become naturalized citizens  or lawful permanent residents and just   blend into society and so we were able early on  to kind of get a window into these this network   of folks and we slowly methodically watch them  year after year after year and you know anytime   somebody gets hard on down in the fbi or i get  you know just critical about the fbi and it wasn't   just the fbi this was the entire u.s intelligence  community this was a spectacular case i mean over   roughly 10 years give or take where agents come  and go analysts come and go case officers come   and go but watching this whole series of people  burrowed into american society watching how they   were talking back to moscow watching the sorts  of information they were gathering and just   understanding the all the nuanced details of what  russia was doing i mean it was amazing casework   and it was you know being an fbi agent that  you know anybody thinking about it listening   join it's the best job you'll ever have you know i  love that there is no better job than being a case   agent in the fbi and i think you mentioned that  you know reading andy mccabe's book and certainly   i hope that came through in mind that it's just  uh that the work is astoundingly great i mean   it it's every day is a challenge and a puzzle and  a mystery to to unfold and you know you told this   fun and interesting story to make a point though  which is that the russians are are are persistent   and doing bad things and continue to do them  and you you were you were setting this you were   setting the stage i have to ask you what  i wanted to know i watched the americans   the television show until i couldn't take the  violence anymore i found it very very disturbing   did these agents were they trained as physical  agents and did they conduct violent activities   no so there's there's some hollywood  license going on that's what i figured   you know it wasn't like hey each week you get  your mission i mean their job was to be as dull   and boring as possible they wanted to look like  the boring neighbor that you had no idea that they   were doing anything other than the other seven  people down the street uh you know in whatever   form or fashion so there was not this sort of you  know your your mission this week is to do x and   you're you know going to assassinate somebody or  you know fight off something it was not that at   all by intent their design was to be hidden and to  stay hidden and just to kind of gather information   and pass that back to moscow again  as you indicate a very long game   somebody who might be a student at in grad school  at harvard who is going to get promoted up through   the state department one day being an ambassador  you know that sort of targeting over the long   haul that's a long game that the russians do well  the chinese do it better than anybody but that's   that it's a perfect example of kind of the long  game that counterintelligence represents when   you say that the russians do it well and that the  chinese do it better than anybody would it be safe   to assume that do you assume that both countries  have sleeper agents in the united states right   now of that ilk um so i don't know but i think  that's a very fair assessment i would assume so   pete um what are you uh other than other than  having spent a lot of time writing a book and now   out promoting it what what do you plan to do in  in the next phase of of your career what are your   plans um so i'm teaching at georgetown this fall  at the school of foreign service it's something   i've always wanted to do and i'm you know just  kicked off uh teaching and i'm really enjoying   that it's challenging and it's giving back in a  way and you know sharing that experience in a way   that i've always looked forward to doing i'm not  done with public service whether that's inside the   government or outside the government i've always  been drawn to you know that sort of service and so   you know for better or worse you know there's  a lot of work to be done and hopefully we're   going to be doing that and well we're going to be  doing it regardless of what happens in november   the question is what that looks like and you know  how best to you know get engaged in that process   is something i really look forward to you know  finding that right meaningful work and diving in   well having spent his career inside a large and  famous bureaucracy what what it what it sounds   to me like is that you you you might be interested  in running for public office is that what you're   saying no i haven't considered that i i haven't  considered that at all i mean i will never say   never to anything but that is nothing on uh you  know that under consideration error that i've   thought about you also got an exposure during this  experience that you probably never would have had   to to the media to the united states media  in particular so we're not talking about   rt and and whatever the the the russian government  does with with media operations but our media um   you're you're generally a defender in the in the  free press etc but talk about your experience for   example when the media wrote about your personal  life so it's tough i mean we are in the age of uh   click bait you know there is a constant need  whether it's the cable news environment whether   it's the online news environment there's a  competition for reviews because that is what's   generating revenue whether it's revenue for the  the vehicle online or whether it's the the media   venue and you know there is a and when we see an  accumulation you know the shutting down of local   media the shuttering of local newspapers and the  kind of ever growing national media that is driven   by the desire to get views that has a perverting  impact on the presentation of the news and   certainly to be kind of thrust where your every  you know my every move is kind of thrown out there   um was disconcerting i mean it angers you and  it upsets you and that certainly is nothing i   would wish on anybody but you know i don't know  that we ever escaped that i am concerned that   you know to the extent there were lessons in 2016  about the the volume of attention that was paid   to the emails to former secretary of state  clinton's emails and reuse of the server   in conjunction to the balance of the coverage  that was being given to everything else   there is a lot of fault to go around i mean they  were soul-searching in the fbi they were still   searching in the us intelligence community about  the response to russia i think they were certainly   soul-searching within the obama administration  about what they did or didn't do in the run-up   there are some in the media but i don't  think they more than anybody else have really   come to terms with fixing some of the the gaps  and problems that were exposed and my worry is   if right now you reset all the players and the  facts that occurred in 2016 i'm not so certain   that it wouldn't play out in exactly the same way  and so that points to you know a lot of reform and   soul searching that still needs to take place  and everybody it's easy to criticize somebody   else right i mean the media can look at the fbi  and criticize what they did the fbi can look at   the media and say you screwed this up and vice  versa but the change has to come from within so um   that is something i think we still need to to  tackle as a nation and then that's separate and   distinct from the issue about social media and  content moderation and who should be doing that   and the appropriate role and limitations if any  well given the amount of scrutiny that you've   come under and the level of detail that you gave  to your own story including your own shortcomings   i guess no one will accuse you of not uh walking  the walk uh in terms of self-investigation or   self-exploration so as a member of the media  your your your your thoughts are are well   are well made in in in my opinion and so peter  strzok i just want to thank you very much   for um for for being here today peter strzok  the author of compromised we encourage   everyone listening to pick up a copy of the book  at your local independent bookstore uh although   if you'd like to watch more virtual programs or  support the commonwealth club efforts please visit www.commonwealthclub.org and although i do not  have the gavel that i wish we had if we were   in person this concludes our program i'm adam  leschinski thank you and see you next time pete   thank you again great thank you for having me it  was great to be here hi i'm dan ashley the evening   news anchor for abc 7 news in san francisco  and i hope you and your loved ones are staying   safe healthy and comfortable during these very  challenging times i am also a proud board member   of the commonwealth club one of our most important  bay area institutions the club has been hosting   wonderful events with exciting speakers and topics  in the bay area for over a century in times of   crisis good information and strong connections  in our community are especially important   and during the current covet 19 crisis the club  has really stepped up since march 6 the club has   brought you over 200 live streamed events with  speakers and panelists including past governors   secretaries of state university presidents and  noted health experts every program includes a   live chat so you and viewers all over the bay area  and beyond have been able to ask these experts   the questions that are on your minds every program  has been neutral and unbiased in true commonwealth   club style to get to the bottom of the issues  that are so drastically affecting our lives   the club has done all this public service despite  being profoundly affected by the crisis the   inability to hold events for the past two months  has forced the club to cut its budget and staffing   by 50 percent the remaining staff are working  from home to bring the community these valuable   and informative live streamed programs the club  needs your support to continue its shelter at home   programming please make a tax deductible donation  to the club now by texting the word donate   to 329-4231 is donate to 329-4231 or visit the  commonwealth club website commonwealthclub.org   we need the club to be here in the months and  years ahead to help inform and educate as we   figure out how to get our society and our economy  safely moving again consider changes 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Rating: 4.479053 out of 5

Keywords: CommonwealthClub, peter strzok, FBI, crossfire hurricane

Id: SakXMNTPajg

Length: 71min 1sec (4261 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 16 2020