Well good afternoon and welcome to today's meeting of the Commonwealth Club of California the place where you're in the know The club is online at Commonwealth Club dot o-r-g as well as on Facebook Twitter and YouTube I'm John zipper the club's vice president of media and editorial host of its week-to-week political roundtable series and your moderator for today And now it's my pleasure to introduce today's distinguished speaker Charlie Sykes He's the author of eight books on current affairs and education including his new book how the right lost its mind For years he was the number one conservative talk radio host in the state of Wisconsin his past books have offered critiques of higher education such as 1989's profs cam he has written about politics and social criticisms such as the end of privacy in 1999 and a nation of moochers in 2013 Now his latest book builds on critiques He has made of the new populist movement that has captured the Republican Party and much of the conservative movement Leading him to wonder. What happened to the party of Reagan and the movement dedicated to conservative ideas and ideals Let's learn what he found in his exploration. Please welcome mr.. Charlie Sykes Let's begin with a comment you made this past weekend on CNN You said that President Donald Trump was quote unstable unquote the only person who talks tougher about the president seems to be Rex Tillerson but Tell us about what what was behind that comment and what it means to have a president you considered to be unstable well First of all thank you for the invitation to come here and discuss all this I was responding to the question from the host who? was asking me about what senator bob Corker had said and He said do you think the president is stable and I said no and I never have Going back from the beginning that nothing that we're seeing right now should come as a surprise to anybody who was paying attention And you know we can talk about this a little bit later but but you know as a never Trump conservative very very early on I Said look you know Donald Donald Trump Is is clearly and manifestly unfit to be the president United States whatever your ideology? You know he is a Fraud a serial liar who mocks the disabled and women you know an erratic narcissist with the with a vocabulary of an emotionally you know unstable nine year old And I thought it was a bad idea to give him control the FBI the CIA and the in the nuclear codes So I might my response to that was I'm not sure That there's any revelation that we're getting now except for people who believe that somehow He was going to pivot that he would grow into the office of the presidency, which which I think was was always a delusion that Is tempting as I'm going to take the opportunity? When Senator Dianne Feinstein was at the Commonwealth Club recently she actually ventured there and she said? There could still be the possibility that he could Mature that he could become a good president yet What's your reaction to that I disagree with her? I mean with with with with all due respect. I think that senator Feinstein was Was letting her optimism get ahead of the the reality that we're seeing here Donald Donald Trump is 70 years old he's he's not going to change. He's not going to grow He's not showing any desire to grow or change and I think that while I? Understand the desire to look for the best in everyone and the desire to look for possible grounds for for future compromise reaching across party lines I do think that you know part of the reality check is is that Donald Trump is what he is? He is has had numerous opportunities to grow I mean today Even as we're sitting here right now the president United States with all the crises around the world and facing the country is Taking to Twitter to mock the height of a United States Senator I Just try to get you grasp that That that you you look at this and you remember I remember what this felt like when I was in sixth grade on the playground But we're not on the playground we're talking about the president the United States so I understand the senator Feinstein thinks there's a possibility that he could somehow become an effective president, but Donald Trump is not going to become anyone other than Donald Trump well Let's go back a bit in time and tell us how you came to this view of Donald Trump many people outside of Wisconsin became aware of your views during the Republican presidential primary When Trump was a calling guest your show? Had a very what became a very quickly a very famous Conversation with you take us back there and tell us what happened and and as much as you can why it happened What why he didn't seem prepared for this No, he well he wasn't and I this is why I was surprised. I had a show we began every morning at 8:30 and my producer told me that Donald Trump was gonna call in at 8:30 and at 8:29 I Didn't think he was going to call in I I didn't because if he would have spent 10 seconds looking at my Twitter feed he would have known that I was never Trump. I had been talking about Donald Trump from the moment he came down the Golden escalator and announced for president. I think I've made my my feelings Manifestly clear I think they showed up in the polls and was gone so I did not expect that he was going to call him and so It's interesting that that you would ask me about that today when with the presidents you know tweeting about the height of somebody because The first thing that I wanted to talk to him about was that he was putting out tweets that were mocking the appearance of his opponents wife he was making fun of Ted Cruz's wife's looks and I thought this was a good opportunity for him coming into Wisconsin where we valued certain levels of civility to apologize for that or Commit to stop doing it and one of the lines I used you know with him was you are running for the office once held by Abraham Lincoln and You know is there is there some different level of behavior, and of course his response to me was well He started it. Which is actually how we got to the playground right? I said well. You know why are you mocking? You know your opponent's you know what we know grown men don't make fun of other men's wives looks so well He started it, so well. That's what I expect from the playground That's what I expect and you're running for president United States Abraham Lincoln job, and it went downhill from there What was the reaction like from your listeners were they Pleased to see you take him on because again. They must have known your views or was there blowback Well no I mean in in, Wisconsin In Wisconsin up until the middle of the year I I think you had a Republican Party that was willing to See Donald Trump for what he was and we can talk about this later the sort of the soul-crushing disillusioning slog of 2016 for me But up until that that moment. I I think they understood that there were so many other choices I mean here was a moment when you had to do had a variety of candidates Not not as many by it by this point this was March 28th, so we were right before the Wisconsin primary Most I think Listeners knew what to expect even if Donald Trump didn't and by the way I did ask Mr.. Trump, halfway through the interview I said no when you called in did you know that I was never Trump And he said I did not know that But he was a good sport about it, so I will I will give him credit for that but it was only later after he had secured the nomination you know that I I think I was not in sync with the audience any longer, and you go into this in the book a bit, but also There was a big shift. You're seeing not just in Wisconsin of Conservatives, but nationally that shift when you went got from the primary to a nominee Explain a bit more what that was and and what reaction did you see among other conservatives among other conservative leaders? well And I saw us in Wisconsin as well that you had a lot of conservative look I mean literally You know I was very active in in the conservative movement, I literally knew no elected official and not one other person that I Respected who supported Donald Trump up until April no one No one in the party supported him and yet somehow. He was securing the nomination from that moment on I Figured that we would the people would not if you believe that he's fundamentally Unfit to be President that he represented a repudiation of everything you believed I figured that people would stay there This was naive on my part because what happened was and I borrowed this line from Jonah Goldberg From from National Review was like us it was was like invasion of the Body Snatchers You know watching one person after another go well. He's the nominee. I have to support him It's a binary choice and one after another They fell into line one of the things that I did in Wisconsin We created a thing called the right women Awards where I made it my personal project to encourage women in politics Conservative women and we we had events we honored I would say almost every Significant policymaker politician leader thinker in the state by the end of this campaign every single one of those women supported Donald Trump and What what I saw happening was this incredible I'm gonna mix the metaphors here, so I apologize in advance The the the gravitational pull of our tribal politics how? Intense it is that that that that even if you recognize? All the character flaws all of the other issues it has become a binary choice Us-versus-them and no matter how awful Donald Trump was Hillary Clinton was worse She had been demonized for 20 years, and so this pull of you want to say partisan polarization mm-hmm, I think it moved beyond partisan polarization into this tribalism, and so I watched as the the party First was beaten and then capitulated and then acquiesced and then enabled Donald Trump Which we have seen really since since all of that With a lot of people that I had known for more than 20 years making decisions that I found quite remarkable Now someone in the audience asks define what it means to be a conservative today, and that folds into something I wanted to get into as well which was define what it means to you to be a conservative What kind of conservative are you and? How has has that For lack of a better term brand of conservative changed in the past 20 or 30 years or has it been the same but the More populist right movement. That's kind of developed around it. I mean yeah, so first. What kind of a conservative for you Well, I would say that the the the first question is much more complicated What does it mean to be a conservative or I have no idea anymore? There of Trump, that's that's that's the short answer to that. That's that's a real puzzling question anymore My brand of conservatism apparently was was much smaller than then I had imagined it to be which would you know? focus on limited government individual freedom free markets constitutionalism personal responsibility a respect for traditional values things like that Including including civility, but also a ace a certain tradition of Respect for our democratic norms. It was common sense based. It was reality based It was not based on alternative facts. It could be distinguished from crackpot ism the fever swamps of the right Which I imagined were were fringe elements which turned out not to be as fringy as I had thought that they were We were talking before this program about Especially the 1980s in the early 1990s. There was a lot of intellectual ferment among both Republicans as a party and conservatives as a movement And you know a lot being written a lot of magazines that were delving into ideas and arguing about ideas and such That's not the case anymore. I think when you're talking about how the right lost its mind That's part of what you're referring to him all right well it's very much part of what I was referring to and as you and I were discussing III might have had a Somewhat distorted view because I really thought that there was an intellectual Renaissance of among conservatives I mean you can trace this back to de Buckley and they Too you know people like you know Buckley in the 1960s through the rise you know George will and Charles Krauthammer And they in the 1970s and Beyond publications like National Review and commentary etc When those ideas were taken very seriously but as As George will and I had a conversation as I was leaving my radio show It turned out that we were a much smaller band of brothers and sisters than we thought that I think that we had this this Intellectual veneer that turns out to be really pie crust thin over a conservative movement that obviously was Obviously had different sets of values Well you might not have an answer for this yet But maybe you know what direction it's going in or what ideas are being talked about But in fact again another person in the audience says where do you conservatives like you go, then I mean? Can you change the Republican Party back into what you want it to be or do you look for a new home or do you? Stand outside as to quote to steal from William F. Buckley to stand up for word history and say no stop well We do stand to thwart history that went once again doing it I describe myself as a contrary and conservative, but the reality is is that? Guys like me we're in the wilderness and and I knew After this election we were going to be in the wilderness what I didn't know if it was gonna be a really really small desert island With justjust just a handful of us. I don't know the answer. I don't know where we're going I don't think that there's a moment at which Trump leaves and we return to the situation that it was before I Think the damage that's going to be done to the movement and to the culture to our politics is going to last for a very Very long time. I don't know what the future of the Republican Party is going to be the The party has shown itself to be more Invertebrate than I would have expected as I say in the book a a Republican party that was Deeply conservative, or that actually had fixed principles would never have nominated Donald Trump a party without fixed principles or one that was open to the kind of Nationalist nativism that he represents would have nominated him If there was going to be a third party I think that 2016 would have been the perfect opportunity I think that there would have been that moment where people would say not not not Hillary not Trump Give us another choice the fact that that didn't happen Makes me skeptical but but I Do think that? The Republican Party needs either to be deeply reformed or replaced now and correct me if I'm wrong you and a number of other contrary and conservatives voted for the independent conservative in the party exceed me in the race in November In the McMullen Yeah right and I'm stand I'm actually working with him on he's got an organization called Stand-up republic, which I think is one of those who knows where it's going to go But basically you know people of goodwill who want to go back to first principles You know we actually believe in the Constitution we believe in limitations we Are going to push back against the the cult of personality the authoritarianism the post factual era We actually do believe in the rule of law and so we're a very small organization as you might expect to these days But I think it might be a seed you Mentioned William F. Buckley of course the Giant of conservativism in the 20th century and in your book you also recount the role he played Kind of cleaning up conservatism going to the fringe and get you know banning it out Pushing it out the John Birchers the the anti-semites and such Is there anyone who could do that either an individual or an organization or media outlet today that has that sort of? Esteem within the organization as well as the personality to obviously take that on apparently not I actually wrote about this Even before Trump came along back in 2012 right after the the election I wrote a piece for a magazine called You know it's time to confront the crackpots I had no idea how many there were but and them and the model was and this is important because back in the 1960s? You know this was this was a defining moment for the conservative movement the Left had their defining moment I think in late 1940s, which is you draw the line and you say you know? There's we are we may be any communist But the John Birch Society the Ku Klux Klan are not part of our movement And he excommunicated The Birchers in the way that on the on the Left the Democrats like the Americans for democratic action Expelled the Communists from the movement, but these were clarifying moments, but there are no more gatekeepers There is no there is there's no one else with this kind of clout now there were in theory on earth 2.0 There's the possibility that that people in the conservative media could have drawn this line You know that that Rush Limbaugh had early on if he would have said We're not going to go in this particular direction or some others and of course they didn't for reasons of their own But I think that's where we're at right now is that there is no Buckley There is no successor to Buckley and as a result the crackpots The extremists the conspiracy theorists the races the anti-semites The the the paranoid fringe folks the people who had been pushed to the outside Have now reentered the conservative movement If they're not mainstream they have been empowered by these developments I think that the Trump in his campaign with a wink and a nod Basically gave them a certain amount of traction, and I don't know how They're going to be expelled Talk a bit about the role. That's played by you. Call it right Media the the the populist Media the Steve ban, and it's the bright Bart's the Infowars wnd.com and such What role have they played in shaping? This moment that we're all sharing And what role do they play in shaping the you know the reactions of political Office holders on the right and you know other conservative leaders who might otherwise Perhaps take a stand against this movement. Well. That's still playing out in real time right now. How they're doing it I in the book I tried to identify certain key moments with their key turning points And and and there are a number we could probably disagree about some of them, but one of the key moments Was when the Drudge Report are you familiar with the Drudge Report? You know? It's it's an aggregating website that is essentially the assignment editor for most conservative media I would say that for the last 20 years. You know almost every conservative Talk show host in America starts the day by looking at the Drudge Report sometime within the last decade I would say before 2000 in 'probably 2009 Drudge started linking to Alex Jones and Infowars and Alex Jones and Infowars is not your garden-variety Conspiracy theorist, I mean this is a guy who's not just a 9/11 truther He will spread stories about the Sandy Hook massacre of all those children being staged false flag events I mean he is he He's he's beyond the fringes of Right-wing conspiracy thinking I mean bizarre though. It's almost no crime That's occurred that he does not have a conspiracy theory that the government's behind it as a false flag, whatever Including including of the Boston Marathon it etc so Drudge starts linking to him Which injects that kind of paranoid conspiracy theory into the bloodstream? Donald Trump comes on the scene Donald Trump launches his campaign by pushing the air conspiracy theory of his campaign which is the birther? Theory right that thought the first African American president United States was really not born in the United States and Gets away with that by the way but Donald Trump went on Alex Jones's show and the week after he's elected president United States. He calls Alex Jones and Says, thank you for your support. I'll come back on your show sometime, so you've taken somebody who? peddles the worst weapons-grade nutjob theories They're brought into the conservative media They're empowered, and then play a role in a presidential campaign now That's slightly separate from you know the bannon's and the Breitbart yeah There's been studies showing that and these guys are very heavily funded by the Mercer family You folks that are so focused on the Koch brothers It's not Koch brothers anymore. It's the Mercer's and they are weaponizing these groups Breitbart sits the middle of this there's this right-wing ecosystem And it had a tremendous effect on Pushing the Republican Party, I won't even say to the right, but but towards Trump Changing the the climate beating up on Fox News to the point where they had to roll over You know some people forget that Fox News was originally not necessarily pro Trump But Breitbart and others beat on them and beat on them and beat on them that if you descent from trumpism Then you're for open borders, or you're a rhino You're a sellout and eventually they came on board a Ryan our Republican and name only But I think what's what's finding out what we're finding out now. Um you know in terms of how the right loss. It's mine That even Donald Trump is discovering that he can't control some of these forces that he's released Because you you know it's it's it's like you you set the fire, and then you can't you can't control And I think they're finding this because of course now Bannon and Breitbart are out there targeting other Republicans including including criticizing the president, but they they play a very significant role a question from the audience, and I think this is a Perfect segue into this please discuss the role of evangelicals in their support for Donald Trump, and has he delivered for them. I When I sat down to write this book understand that you know I'd lived through this this this Soul-crushing slog of 2015 and 2016 and I sat down busy, and I knew what I was gonna say about the conservative media And you know try to break things down, but the one chapter that I knew that was gonna Be really hard time writing was the chapter what happened to the Christians How did the evangelical Christians decide that they were going to support Donald Trump you know? What was it about Donald Trump that? That that these leaders these Christian leaders know thought they looked at him and they went you know he's the man we want to be president United States I still find that to be absolutely remarkable I Find it to be Stunning and I think one of the most remarkable Numbers and I think I have it in the book is the flip in the polls that you know not that long ago If you would have asked so does an immoral personal life does it affect someone's ability to be in public life You know evangelical Christians overwhelmingly said well of course it does. You don't have somebody who is immoral I mean This is this is the character counts thing remember when Bill Clinton was around and character mattered I would say 70% of evangelicals said that yes your personal character affected your ability to me in public life today The one of the demographic groups that thinks that the least our evangelical Christians in the era of Trump Evangelical Christians are among the least thinking that personal morality and character affects your ability to be in office which is Amazing when you think about it I Think in that particular case it was this binary choice to go back to this sense that no matter that that everything is at stake This apocalyptic vision that if Hillary Clinton was elected she would come for our religious liberties I think it's hard to overstate how big an issue I Think that was beneath the radar screen for a lot of folks this this this idea that the Christians felt They were under siege that there was war on Christianity That the individual rights were under siege and that no matter how bad Trump was there was a chance that he might be he might be the champion that even as a sinner even as somebody who? Actually, do you remember the time? He was actually asked have you ever asked God for forgiveness? this is in front of a crowd of evangelical Christians Donald Trump is as have you ever asked God for forgiveness and Trump's answer was basically No never never once ever and you'd think that that would be the moment where the couid've Angelica Christians would go okay? You're really not one of us. Are you you know? I mean have you ever said you know the our Father or anything? but they didn't and Then the second part that question was has he delivered for them. They think he has They think and they've made that calculation that they're willing to swallow all of this other behavior Because he is going to give them certain things when it comes to contraception abortion and religious and religious liberty So I don't think you see any erosion of support their Russian human rights activist Gary Kasparov came to the Commonwealth club earlier this year. He said we're lucky It was Donald Trump who showed us the weakness of our political system And his argument was because Trump basically doesn't have really much of an agenda other than in self-enrichment His team doesn't know what they're doing so they're not able to get stuff passed very well and in other words We're in better shape that it was Donald Trump doing this than if we had elected like a devious Politician like Frank Underwood of house of cards. What do you think about that? That's interesting And and I actually had spent time with with with with Gary on this particular issue Gary also understands the role of probe propaganda. He was the one who explained to me And I quote his his his tweet, which is that the point of lies? Propaganda is not to convince you necessarily of the truth of those lies. It is to attack your critical sensibility It's an attack on truth itself to get you to the point. Where you no longer know What's true or necessarily care about true? This was a really in right into how? authoritarians use false information So he understands that he also understands something that a lot of Americans don't understand Is that our institutions are more fragile than we thought I do believe? And I certainly was one of those that that thought that because America was exceptional that somehow It was inevitable that our democratic norms were going to be respected And I think that's part of the shock of the Trump era to realize that that we are not immune to history that the you know the history of democracies is often the history of the decline of democracies and That there's no necessarily reason why we would be exempt the other thing that The Trump has has exposed to a lot of us is to understand that our system of checks and balances Which we actually used to teach in school back when we used to teach civics? That the system of checks and balances is actually kind of a metaphor as opposed to a hard-and-fast thing That that other our system of government is kind of based, and this is something else He said yeah that it is it's it's it's like an honor system That in many ways the president is above the law and the entire constitutional structure is based on the presumption That you have honorable people in office that you have an honorable person in the presidency So what happens if you don't have an honorable person in the presidency what happens if you have somebody who has no respect For the rule of law and the separation of powers or the truth and that's kind of the shock So I I take his point but I would turn it around and say and I often say this is that that that I want to I I am not bothered by Donald Trump as much as you might think Because he is who he is I wanted to almost turn the focus around to us You know from we're all like fixated looking at him. I want to turn it back on us and what his rise says about us So that Donald Trump doesn't come in and destroy our democracy. There's something wrong with our democracy that he's there There's something fundamentally wrong in our culture that we would think that electing reality TV star to this position knowing everything that we know about him to it and So I would like to and we have really interesting discussions on this issue of how Resilient is our system And I I respect the people who say our institutions are standing up to him and are being resilient on the other hand I Do think the impact that he's going to have on the culture? The corseting effect on the culture what he's done to the way that we discuss and think about issues I think that damage is gonna be with us for a very very long time and that's damage to the democratic system Hey look democracy cannot survive if there's not a respect for facts and truth and we have a president in his universe that is working overtime to destroy our respect for facts and truth and Not even we Americans are immune to that another member of your I guess smaller than expected tribe of conservatives David Frum was on the Bill Maher program on HBO Just shortly before the election and he was trying to make that case about Institutions right and he was saying look these institutions You need to be defending that right because they might be all that stands in your way and David Frum was I Guess exiled to the same island as you right now Well David Frum and in all fairness was exiled a long time before me He was he was he would he was cast out I mean the the conservative movement has been very effective, and I'm sure this happens on the Left as well, but We're in the Bay Area it does Well, I I look I I had this box that I will call not my problem right now So you know whatever's happening with your crazy uncle's is your problem. I you know but So David Frum was excommunicated some years ago and I've had conversations with him. I said that I I apologize for not having seen What you saw when you saw it because he did see many of these things Someone in the audience asks is there anything Trump could do that would cause the right-wing media the Limbo's The Hannity's and others to abandon him That's an interesting question I Think it's it's very difficult because you know right now. This is the business model of Of conservative talk Which is you are the Trump defenders you you are I actually was on a show with one with one of the talk shows not One of those two guys who basically explained that his job was to make this president succeed And I said despite anything So you have basically surrendered your independent judgement completely. I mean relieves, its I hope You're well paid for this because that doesn't sound like a fun job I suppose it. I suppose there are some things, but they're it's it's it's hard to imagine I was wondering what they would say about his negotiations with Chuck and Nancy But they managed to make that pivot pretty pretty easily mmm If he abandons his hardline on immigration you might lose the Ann Coulter's But I don't know that I don't know there's anything that he could do to lose Sean Hannity Who has basically just turned himself into a gushing fanboy you do have a comment about Sean Hannity I'm wondering if I can get you into thing him you've called you've Referred to his intelligence in a certain way no I have four degrees effect on my own college and um and that I I actually was Driving to a dinner with a reporter and to none Sean Hannity And I walked in the door one of the first things I said was I was just listening to Sean Hannity, and I feel that I get Dumber every minute. I listen doing Someone says I got here late, who is the Mercer family. Let's use that as an opportunity Who are the the folks who are bankrolling a lot of these? Movements and the organization's the media outlets yeah, the Mercer's are billionaires Robert and his daughter Rebecca Mercer, and they're they're relatively recent players they weren't a lot of the things that we're talking about We're not around. Even a few years ago And I think that's one of the reasons why a lot of things have happened with a great deal of speed with a lack of understanding, but they're for whatever reason they have allied themselves we Steve Bannon and The Breitbart folks and are writing out checks in the tens of millions of dollars to fund many of these things and Clearly will play a major role and say primary rational rational Republicans who dare to to buck buck Donald Trump but what we're as the Koch brothers I Think you know whether you like them, or not they actually have a pretty well-developed philosophy of what they believe in the Mercer's seem to be Law have bought into this sort of chaos theory of going along with what Bannon is doing Speaking of which where are the Koch brothers in terms of their posture towards Trump are they supporting? avoiding They they avoided him. I don't think that they supported him during the campaign But I think that they've made the calculation that they will work with him on the agenda I think that they will probably play a significant role in pushing for Tax reform legislation and that leads into another great question. Do you like any of the policies that Trump is trying to implement? I mean whether it's tax policy or health care or anything like that Well, you know this is the hard part for a contrarian conservative because there will be moments where you'll agree with him on certain issues I tend to agree with him on a lot of judicial issues. I did support his nomination for for Supreme Court of Neal Gorsuch but The I'm having a hard time understanding the policy-making Procedures, they're going through on on health care. I mean I remember back in 2009 When Obamacare was being passed the big mantra of course among conservatives was that it was being? Done too quickly it was being rammed through we didn't know. What was in it Well it that seems like almost laughable now Since the Republicans were about to vote on a bill that had been released with like what a day before Nobody knows what was in the bill, but more importantly nobody knows how it affects things in the real world There's a reason why we have never Unraveled a social program like that. You know once it has been in place I don't know that that the the Trump administration firstly Donald Trump does not care about policy Donald Trump is a man without principle without any Curiosity about policy I think he's indifferent to the effects of his policies. He just wants a win I mean it's not that hard. It's not that complicated He just wants that signing ceremony where he can claim a win even if it means that millions of people's lives will be disrupted Even if it will mean that there are unintended consequences now there's a brand of conservatism Which says let's take the world as it is Try to do no harm you understand what what the effect on the ground will be I don't sense that that's What we're seeing right now because I sensed there's a lot of legislation That's been on the shelves for a long time including the tax bill Yeah, which is an example of zombie conservatism which is we were for this in 1982? Therefore even though the world has fundamentally changed. We're going to come up with the exact same answer in 2017 that we came up in 1982 so I'm not sure that these are well thought through or principled okay? There are a couple questions here I'm going to merge together because they're Pretty much kind of asking the same thing and it takes on what you were just talking about about Trump wanting a win and the questions are is Trump the leader of the Republican Party Or is he pulling folks away from both parties is his loyalty. You know Ronald Reagan would do stuff for the Republican Party Donald Trump is more likely about Donald Trump correct very much about Donald Trump And I think this is dawning on Republicans who thought that they were going to be able to domesticate him in some way and they're not It is all about Donald Trump If if that means throwing if it's fellow Republicans under the bus he will do that he actually is in a unique position Because of the nature of his coalition that he did draw on the non-traditional Republican vote you know and it's a real challenge to the Democrats who I don't think I've figured out How do you get back those Trump voters? How do you get back? You know the the rural blue-collar voters in in, Ohio, Michigan Pennsylvania, Wisconsin Who voted for baby Barack Obama twice and then voted for Donald Trump? I think there was always that fear among Republicans that we have to appease Donald Trump, otherwise He might become a third party candidate. I think there's still kind of that anxiety that he could go rogue and go his own way If Donald Trump had not won in 2016 say he got the nomination, but he did not win in November What would be your take on the Republican Party's? state of its in its conservative health of its of its you know ability to move forward with Its coalition revealed to be what it is. Well. That's what I was expecting to happen Like most other Americans, I didn't think he would win I thought that then there was going to be this real serious period of introspection After after Romney lost to Obama a member of the Republican Party had an autopsy. I think this time they would need an exorcism I Still think they need an exorcism To be able to ask you know first of all how did this happen how did he win the nomination? What does this say about us as a party? Because I do think there was that looking around going. I thought I understood what the party was about I mean I thought what the movement was about Obviously we didn't and I'm not alone in that did not know so How deep was this dysfunction and I think that one of the things we realize is that Donald Trump was a symptom? Not just a cause and he was a symptom that this dysfunction of the Republican Party in the conservative movement was a pre-existing condition And it's going to end it's it would have been there even had he lost Even if he had not run at all that that still would have been there Well it obviously was there Yeah and obviously went back a lot deeper one of the First questions one reason I wrote this book was I wanted to figure out for myself. What what the hell just happened and Whether or not this was a Black Swan event whether you just had this weird moment Where Donald Trump parachutes into an otherwise healthy movement and takes it over and it was a you know or? Whether or not there was continuity. You know does was there was a continuity or discontinuity I Think I started thinking that well. It was it was clearly up just a radical break That Donald Trump had nothing to do with what the Republican Party had been standing for what was going on and I Changed my mind about that because I think that dysfunction runs too deep and you go back for years earlier I mean This is a party that has had its share of crackpots Before I mean in 2012 remember than in the presidential race Michelle Bachman was the front runner for a while and Newt Gingrich was the front runner for a while and Herman Cain was the front runner for a while You had snow you know odd candidates like Sharron Angle running for Senate in Nevada or There so there's so many of you know Todd ache and who is was running and and and and clearly What I had thought was going to happen was that we were going to manage the fringes that the center would hold that somehow the rational decision would be made And it wasn't but that doesn't mean that we didn't have that problem out there for a long time and I think what had happened was that the Republican Party as I as I wrote over the weekend has been Outsourcing its thought leadership to the loudmouth drunk at the end of the bar For a long time and it had cranked up this outrage machine, which I call in the book the perpetual outrage machine We are always outraged all the time, and we know what we're against But we didn't know what we were for anymore And and I think that was Donald Trump came in and he exploited that he didn't create that but even without Donald Trump You had that sort of growing just industry of total outrage in opposition without much constructive thinking I want to step back a bit and go into populism when I was talking about your book with a colleague Their reply was oh But populism is a good thing why oh is this bad You make the case very clearly in the book your thoughts on populism, and why it's a dangerous thing and also Why specifically someone from your political point of view would see problems with it so for the sake of? Explaining this why would you well you know part of it is is is what is populism mean? It's like somebody asked me earlier this morning about you know democratic values, okay well What exactly are we talking about is is populism acting in the public interest than it is clearly a good thing is populism playing playing on resentments and class warfare Is it is that the desire that you know if we just want something? We should be able to impose it on others. So you know part of that is is understanding what the words mean, but I think that My understanding of conservatism was that it was a careful balance. It was ordered liberty. It was suspicious of an authoritarian government But it was also suspicious of you know populist and insurgency You know prickly of the of the you know hyper nationalist nativist brand, and I don't You know again are there populist elements that are to be incorporated into our politics absolutely did we ignore too many Americans? I think that we did are some of those grievances legitimate I think they are and I think we have to sort of Unpackage some of the legitimate grievances from the way that they're exploited I mean simply because you have an irresponsible demagogue who comes in and exploits grievances doesn't mean that there aren't actual grievances it doesn't mean that we didn't have a government and in a quote-unquote elite that had not gotten out of touch with with how actual people live in the real world as you said you're talking about Conservatives and the Republican Party we see similar stuff going on with the left with the pink polled further and further to the left Are we just in for now an extended period of populist revival, or do you think they will be? That the the the center if you will on each party will kind of find a way to address enough of the issues so that they stem the tide if you will I'm not sure that it's all populist I I mean I want to be more optimistic here. I'm struggling to be okay I I do sense that that we are pulling further and further apart Tribally whatever the the identity, and I think the mistake sometimes That I'll say guys like you and me, but I actually mean me Will make is thinking that American politics is about ideas issues Accomplishments and those Ted saying when in fact you get the sense sometimes that American politics is all about attitude It's all about tribal identity and that can shift It can be it can be populist it can be nationalist it can be nativist is Nativist necessarily mean populist doesn't necessarily mean. You know those things. What is what is the bundle? But our politics being us versus them In red versus blue is becoming more intense and part of the problem. Is is that that all of the wait the loudest voices? Are incentivized to pull further and further away? I mean we come to events like this and You realize how vital the center is how center right and center left can talk with one another? III think that you talk about how about a politics of a little bit of moderation openness inclusion Modesty and people will think yeah well Try to fill a rally hall with that Try to get a million clicks for your website. Go moderation. You know Right you know So I mean I I I'm torn because I think there's this tremendous appetite To have a conversation across the lines But the economic and the political Incentives seem to be empowering the the most bombastic obnoxious voices on either side Not only might it not be as exciting to Talk about compromise and understanding the other side and stuff like that, but you have For lack of a better term the internet trolls right you attack. Oh, yes, been the victim of this you know do you fear because it's it's not just you it's it's Folks uh quite or across the society who are getting attacked like this Do you fear that I mean is this all noise, or do you think it could become lethal at some point? oh, it's it's it's I have a the culture of intimidation and bullying is is very real and It plays a significant role in our politics. There's no question about it The chapter of the book is I think it's called trolls and flying monkeys Which which is basically? On their on the right anyone that criticized Trump They would release the internet trolls and what I call the flying monkeys this the yet the attacks and how? Bitter and and vicious they were and there are people who are genuinely concerned look I'm you can see that it can become lethal on on both sides here that can become lethal But and and yeah that that is part of it, so I understand Why people? Shut up, mmm. I do understand. Why if you are in the conservative media You're gonna be very reluctant to do it I would be glad to share my Twitter feed with with with anybody to see what reaction I get I I don't care anymore But I can certainly imagine they do I do tell a story in the book? the one night who was in May of 2016 and I was on megan kelly show when she was still on fox and By this point I think Trump had pretty much nailed it down And she wanted to know so why are you? not getting on board everybody else is getting on board, and I gave my little thing about how you know I didn't think that I wanted to give him the nuclear codes and and left and Interesting enough fox posted online the person who was on right before me and the person was on right after me But never posted what I said but somebody else did but Check the Twitter feed as it before I got to my car but there were probably a thousand responses and because if you know how it works if somebody sends something to We're both on so I I got to see what megyn kelly was getting for me being on and It was the most remarkable thing you want to talk about you know your hour of pure raw Hatred out there. I had a chance to ask her more recently I said do you read your Twitter feed do you know? What people are saying and she goes none and I have other people do that? I said well, that's a smart decision because you do not know you do not want to know how ugly it is and I'm always fascinated by the question has Does this just expose something that was out there that we just never knew or? Does it actually create it because that it encourages otherwise normal rational human beings in? Anonymity to express thoughts and make threats that they would never actually make otherwise But this is very real, and so when people say well. Why will Republicans not stand up against Donald Trump I mean, I wish they were but I also understand that a lot of them will say it's just not worth it I don't want to have to go through it. I don't want to put my family through it I don't want to look at it. I don't want to I don't want to have to I don't want have to push back Yeah, I mean you have situations where parents who are the targets of this will have people sending them photos of their kids you know I know how their kid gets to school and You know images of them if they're Jewish you know connected with a Holocaust I mean, it's really this just what is it is it is vicious stuff and it can get very very personal I Tell the story very early on I Had never heard the phrase cock Servat 'iv before but before this campaign. You know the term cock Servat 'iv it was. It's an alt right thing and by the way I know the alt right is just a euphemism for white Nationalists and any Semites and but it was it was a that if you were not approached from conservative you were a cock It's a very racially loaded term Basically suggesting that you know you know you would you you were like a cuckold? That you were watching your nation being you know raped by our black president or something. I don't know but One of the tweets that I got early on was was a picture my head superimposed into a gas chamber with Donald Trump pressing the gas button and If you look very closely on it. It was it was from a website I was the daily stormer which was basically a neo-nazi website Which enabled people to make these things so I was not the only one that had it this became a popular thing where the daily stormer Decided so you can put anyone you want in a gas chamber to be gassed by Donald Trump so I would say there were probably thousands of people that got similar things like this and I'm Yeah, I won't say that I laughed that off because there's nothing funny about it But I do I can certainly imagine how people would be intimidated by it. Let's talk about you as a radio host for 23 years And in your book you also you Put yourself in the focus there And you kind of say well what part did I play and what happened talk a bit about that? Well that was that's the other thing is you know I was a a conservative talk show host in the in the state of Wisconsin the number one in the state for two for two decades so I was part of The conservative movement, and they had to say okay So did I contribute to this so at the end of this day when I see the state of Wisconsin goes for Donald Trump and? Many of the people that that I had worked with and who had listened to me decided they were gonna vote for him You know kind of Lee where did you go wrong type thing? And I don't you look a lot of Distinction need to be made. I mean I'm not Sean Hannity I Didn't include obviously. I spent a year and a half of my life doing everything possible in the not elect Donald Trump But on the other hand you do have to ask yourself What did you contribute and and I think it's it's fair to say that that that I was part of the media ecosystem that contributed to The alternative reality media that we created that we had succeeded in deal ajith amaizing The mainstream media like I look any conservative in America will criticize the media for being biased And I think some of that's legitimate But there came a point where you realize that you had deal Ajith amaizing all news That you had turned instead of just being the other side of the story That we had created this hermetically sealed bubble Echo chamber whatever turned me want to use that became impenetrable And and when I really realized this was when I was getting this flood of what we now call fake news well the president has seized on this propaganda Information for years I would get stuff and you named a couple of these websites in a World Net Daily for years I would push back with the audience say you know this is not true. This is bogus and Up until I would say the end of 2015. I actually probably the beginning of 2016 People would go okay? Well, thank you for pointing this out that this is false But as 2016 went along it became harder and harder first of all the volume was much More intense there were so many more websites there were so many more Facebook feeds and now we're finding out that many of them may have been generated by the Russians for all that we know I mean After you've seen the story in the front page of the New York Times this morning If you haven't it's extraordinary the way in which the Russians weaponized many of these really racially divisive Images to push and those were the kinds of things that were coming over my transom on a regular basis And I found that what it say well this did not happen because and then I would cite a source a fact-based source But instead of saying, thank you. They would say well. That's just the liberal news media That's just liberal hacks, and well what about this? Well, that's and realized that that outside if it came from outside the bubble you could not penetrate you could not Falsify, so what had happened was I'd spent 20 years thinking that we were developing this savvy audience that could have a different point of view But we had destroyed their immunity to false information. It could not break through all of that And that's and that's disturbing the other biggest failing I think And I contribute to this to I'll fess up that we did underestimate the the bigots among us We knew that were the fringe characters And you would hear the things he had roll your eyes, but you figure on the same side You know we agree 80% of the time, so I'm not going to confront all of this and I think that there was a good deal of denial about that and You know the drunk at the end of the bar turned out not to be as marginal the figures we thought We only got about 10 minutes left So I want to try to get through more of these questions a couple questions are on the gerrymandering case in, Wisconsin That is before the US Supreme Court Keep some people are saying this could be potentially you know dramatic shift If if they depending on how the Supreme Court rules. What are your thoughts on this? They're complicated actually because I do think that one of the real problems in our democracy has been This this the the fact there are no more competitive districts that that the system looks like it has been rigged But just a little bit of background One other thing and I'm not I'm not defending this the the gerrymandering because I actually know some of the people that were responsible for it and and they And they're very good at doing what they were doing and they knew what they were doing so I mean this didn't just happen But one of the things that's also happened is we've been sorting ourselves out geographically there's a book called the big sort by Bill Bishop and what he points out is that it's not just the Gerrymandering we have as a people. Not only created intellectual ghettos online We are sorting ourselves out geographically so say in Wisconsin one of the reasons why the numbers look so skewed is That the very democratic areas in Wisconsin are intensely democratic you will have Assembly District that will have 90 percent Democratic votes, but they will be right next door to Republican areas that have gotten much more Republican the blue is much more blue the red is much more bread so that you have this Disconnect so that yes the Democrats get tons and tons of votes, but they will be in Madison and Milwaukee In order to draw the lines you'd almost have to make them like the spokes of a wheel one of the reasons that lines have been driven But then drawn the way they've been drawn has been to maximize minority representation so that The unintended consequence, I understand. This is this is kind technical here, but We're not going to solve the problem of our sorting out simply by Jeremy by dealing with Gerrymandering and one point of that look at the map just on states blue states red states the United States Senate is not Gerrymandered governorships are not gerrymandered And I think that we're gonna have to find some way to deal with that as well I would not be surprised if Wisconsin lost that lawsuit, and I'm not sure that it's it's a bad thing But I don't know what the remedy is and I don't know that the courts yeah I I think this is what the Supreme Court justices are wrestling with they recognize that The Wisconsin case is very extreme, but they also recognize that that if you strike that down you've now you know, okay, so what's your better idea and I'm not sure what you do you know here in California of course we Took the the district drawing capabilities away from the legislature And put it in the hands of a commission The state as if anything become bluer, and it's representation has become Lord. Well that will be interesting to watch someone Asked if the preoccupation with Trump's ties to Russia is diverting both his attention away from you know pushing up a policy agenda as well as just not Kind of taking everyone's eye off the ball if you will of the important things you How closely do you follow the Russia thing do you think that's a sideline? Or do you think that's the ultimate story about Donald Trump? It could be the ultimate story about Donald Trump? It's clearly distracting him a great deal. He's clearly obsessed about it. He probably should be obsessed about it Because you have an independent prosecutor who is going to Who is going to find out pretty much everything about his finances? And if you are somebody who lies so casually and easily as Donald Trump You will discover how dangerous it is to lie to a federal? prosecutor or US where a special prosecutor I also think that the story and this I I will admit to being very frustrated about this that I'm old enough to remember when Republicans would actually have taken a Russian attack on our democracy as a really big deal You want to talk about the corruption of trumpism? You know all of these you know former conservative Republicans who five minutes ago recognized. What a geopolitical threat? Vladimir Putin represented now trying to poopoo the hacking of our democracy in effect This is a very big deal And I ought to disclose at this point that I'm on the advisory board of the committee to investigate Russia Which was if you've seen that morgan freeman video It's been put together Speaking of like Working across strange bedfellows a rock Rob Reiner is the guy that put it together and and asked whether I would Add my name along with David Fromm to that and I said well You know you and I probably don't agree on anything, but this is this is a moment where this is an issue of patriotic Americans Should care about this a great deal I'm not going to prejudge what the investigations going to discover? But this is a you sort of can't imagine Reagan Republicans going so the Russians attacked us who cares Do you think Trump would ever resign what might make him or might take him over the edge? IIIi don't know I think there's a lot of wishful thinking about that Not being a Being a pathological narcissist is a problem. It's it's hard for me to imagine Someone like Donald Trump whose entire identity is built around winning Technology that he's losing and quitting so I have a very hard time that they would have objective circumstances Where you became impossible for him to continue her government, but that he would not recognize? I mean this this this is something people have to realize Richard Nixon resigned Only after Barry Goldwater and other Republican members of the US Senate went to see him and said to him You need to go It's got to be the Republican Party But who in the Republican Party now has that that ability Whose the Goldwater now who's the James Buckley who would go and say that to him now? He would he would go to war with them, so I don't know what it would be And again, we don't know where this molar investigations are going to go Well unfortunately. We've reached the point in our program where we have time for just one last question So I'm gonna take this from the audience and it is rate Donald Trump's chances of being reelected in 2020 Better than you think Remember you have to beat somebody with somebody I Hope that the Democrats recognized that that this is not a this is not a tapping you know in our politics What did we see in 2016 the binary choice? So I could certainly imagine a circumstance where the opposition overplays its hand the president accomplishes nothing But runs against Hollywood the liberal news media Plays these cultural these culturally divisive issues. I mean here's a president. I mean you know why he's doing the NFL stuff I mean, this is like it's like catnip to his base doesn't matter It doesn't matter whether he's created any jobs whether he's repealed Obama care as long as he can divide the country on whether you stand or kneel for the stay the the national and the national anthem but also I Do think that if the if the Democrats nominate somebody? Who is too extreme? That you're gonna see almost the exact same pattern of votes now I'm not saying I want to see him get to terms he might not want to run for for a second term But don't underestimate that all of the things we've been talking about the divisions the media ecosystem The fact that Democrats have proven their their ability to overplay their hand and one of the stories that I tell in Wisconsin you know Wisconsin was a democratic state it is now solidly Republican Not because the Republicans they are necessarily brilliant. It's because the Democrats and the Left Overplayed their hand to the point where they alienated many people in the Center Scott Walker was losing that collective-bargaining Fight up until very late in the game when the protesters would disrupt Special Olympics events when they protested at his parents house, where as elderly no elderly parents lived and Basically there was a backlash if there is that kind of? overreach that causes a backlash for Trump He could exploit that now the fact that his approval ratings are as terrible as they are Might give you hope but remember what his approval ratings were right before the election this was an election which basically 60% of the American public disliked him Recognized that he did not have the qualifications to be President did not think that he was honest and yet somehow he was elected So I would not say that that despite the fact that his presidency has been absolutely shambolic That he could not be reelected well our Thanks to Charlie Sykes author of the new book how the write lost its mind for our conversation today. We also Thank our audiences here on radio television and the Internet finally we wish to remind you that Charlie Sykes will be signing copies of his book for sale right outside of this room and I'm John zipper now this meeting of the Commonwealth Club of California the place where you're in the know is over
I think we're seeing the failure on the right with toeing the line. Unity was more important than principals and it's been that way for a while. The GOP was ripe for their fruits to be plundered.
What does it say about the right side of the political spectrum if it was shaped by "Buckley running out crackpots, racists, antisemites, etc"? It seems to me that any dignified projection of conservativism was therefore only ever cosmetic and destined to be temporary. Being surprised that underneath there is a sizeable base of crackposts, racists, antisemites and the rest of it must mean you willfully never noticed the face underneath all the makeup. We shouldn't be surprised.