- I'm going to react to
a recent conversation with Dr. Sanjay Gupta from CNN on Joe Rogan's podcast. I'll focus only on the communication that's happening in the room and the power dynamics between them. Rogan believes that CNN lied about him and he was personally defamed. From an educational standpoint, this is what it looks like when two people argue
when one of them says they have been wronged
and has verifiable facts, and the other person is put
in a difficult position. At the end, I'll score this
like boxing, a score of 10-9, means it was a close round
but the winner of that round gets 10 points, the loser gets nine. If there's a knockdown,
then it's a 10-8 round. More than one knockdown, 10-7. If the guy doesn't get back
up, then the fight is over. Maybe you will agree with
my score, or maybe not. We'll pick it up where Rogan
says, CNN claimed inaccurately that he took horse
dewormer to treat COVID. (bell dinging)
- Vaccinated, on top of that. - By the way, I'm glad you're better. I'm glad it only lasted a day.
- Thank you. You're probably the only one
at CNN that's glad. (laughs) - No, no, no, no, no, we're not-- - The rest of them are all lying about me taking horse medication. And we should talk about that. - [Sanjay] That bothered you. - It should bother you too. They're lying at your network about people taking human drugs versus drugs for veterinary-- - Calling it a horse dewormer
is not a flattering thing. I get that.
- It's a lie. It's a lie on a news network and that's a lie that they're conscious of. This is not a mistake. - [Sanjay] Yeah. - They're unfavorably framing
it as a veterinary medicine. - Rogan starts in a lighthearted mood. This signals that he's willing
to have an equal exchange. In conversations, we call
this a "Symmetrical exchange." He's sending one-across messages. You can either be in the dominant, submissive, or equal positions in a
conversation like this. In most every day conversations, people typically settle into an equal or a symmetrical exchange. Rogan is not making any decisive
power moves at the start. He's just sparring lightly
and sticking out his jab. It gets more serious when he says, "The rest of them
at CNN lied about me." This puts Gupta in a tough spot in terms of the old workplace politics. This is where he makes his first misstep. He responds as if he's
Joe Rogan's therapist. He says, "That bothered you," as if he's responding to the
end of Rogan's statement, "We should talk about that." With this comment,
Gupta attempts to rotate the symmetrical or equal exchange to position himself in a dominant role. We call this a "One-up" move. Gupta's statement casts himself as the empathetic therapist and tries to cast Rogan
in the role of patient, a submissive role. Rogan didn't appreciate
that and he snaps back, "It should bother you, too." Rogan threw a hard jab
and made first contact. That phrase, "That bothered you," that Gupta introduced becomes
a conversational resource that Rogan is going to leverage. Rogan states directly that
CNN's horse dewormer claim "Is a lie." Gupta tries to slip this punch too. He says, "It's not a flattering thing." He's attempting to reduce the
offensiveness of what CNN did. That's a strategy from
the area of research called "Image restoration." He's attempting to reduce the
degree of negative feelings experienced by the audience. But Rogan does not need to
meet Gupta in the middle and compromise and agree that
it was merely unflattering. From his standpoint, Rogan
is standing on the truth. He reiterates that it
was a deliberate lie. But I am still not
seeing a knockdown punch. - Unfavorably framing it
as a veterinary medicine. - Well, the FDA put this
thing out. You saw that. Did you see that thing
that the FDA put out? - [Rogan] What did the FDA put out? - (laughs) It was a tweet and
it was snarky, I admit it. They said, "You are not a
horse, you are not a cow, stop taking this stuff,"
or something like that. - Why would you say that when
you're talking about a drug that's been given out to
billions and billions of people? A drug that was responsible
for one of the inventors of it - Nobel Prize!
- winning the Nobel Prize in 2015.
- 15, yeah. - Yeah, a drug that has been shown to stop viral replication in
vitro, you know that, right? Why would they lie and say,
"That's horse dewormer"? I can afford people medicine. (Sanjay laughing) This is ridiculous. It's just a lie.
- I don't think anyone is th-- - But don't you think that a lie like that is dangerous on a news network when you know that they
know they're lying? You know that they know
that I took medicine. Like, here it is, this is Ivermectin. - You got it with you?
- This is it right here. Somebody gave it to me. - All right, hang on. The thing is we're going so fast, I feel like I'm missing-- - Do you think that's a problem? That your news network lies? - Well, what'd they say?
- Dude, they lied and said I was taking horse dewormer. First of all, it was
prescribed to me by a doctor. - They shouldn't have said it was horse--
- Along with a bunch of other medications.
- If you got a human pill, because there were people that were taking the veterinary medication
and you're not, obviously. You got it from a doctor, so
it shouldn't be called that. Ivermectin can be a very
effective medication for parasitic disease. And as you say, I think, what? A quarter billion people have
taken it around the world. - More, way more.
- I get that. - [Rogan] Way more, billions
of people have taken it. - Can I just come back to the one? I wanna talk about two things on the ledger.
- No, no, no, no, no, no. Before we get to that. Does it bother you that the
news network you work for out-and-out lied? Just outright lied about
me taking horse dewormer. - [Sanjay] They shouldn't have said that. - [Rogan] Why did they do-- - Gupta tries here, another
image restoration strategy. He tries to shift the blame to the FDA. He is saying, in effect, another person or organization
is responsible for the harm. The FDA said that first. Rogan doesn't let him get away with it. He makes his full case for the legitimacy of the drug he took. He's throwing punches in bunches with facts and statistics. To his credit, Gupta isn't
arguing with the facts. He is trying to conversationally
come alongside Rogan on the point that the
drug really is for humans. But Rogan wants Gupta to
acknowledge that CNN lied. Rogan is now fully
tilting the power dynamics by using a series of one-up moves, pressing him with pointed
questions and assertive tone and relentless pace and
piercing eye contact. The conversation is now
completely, asymmetrical. Gupta could have attempted to match Rogan's dominance and intensity
with a shouting match. But ultimately, Rogan
has the facts on his side and Gupta knows it. There's no place for him to go, in this conversation except
into the submissive position. He begins losing his
conversational agility, his utterances get jumbled. He's laughing nervously. Rogan then asks clearly, "Do you think it's a problem that your news network lies, dude?" As a spokesperson for CNN, Rogan wants Gupta to answer
for this sin and repent and answer for that condescending reply that Gupta introduced
earlier, "That bothered you." Rogan here is still
flipping that back on Gupta. Rogan really emphasizes the
word "Dude," at one point. Gupta is a neurosurgeon,
a professor of medicine, he's probably not used
to being called "Dude." With this question, worded
and delivered in this way, Rogan lands that big right hook. Gupta clarifies the issue and admits, in a couple of different ways, CNN should not have said
it was a horse dewormer. But, is this a knockout
or just a knockdown? You may notice there's an
important aspect of the question that Gupta didn't answer. Let's look at what happens next. - [Rogan] Why did they do that? - I don't know. - You didn't ask? You're
the medical guy over there. - I didn't ask. I should have asked before coming on the podcast.
- They did it with such glee. - No, Joe.
- Yes they did, I watched. I watched.
- You watched? - I watched.
- You watched. No, I don't think there's glee.
- Yes they did. (Gupta laughing)
- "Joe Rogan says he has COVID, taking livestock
drug despite warnings." Yeah. - Jamie had to pull this up, huh?
- You wanna play it? - Does she have glee?
- This is your news network. - I'm gonna watch.
- Let's see. - I'm gonna watch. - Rogan telling his 13
million Instagram followers that he was treated with several drugs. And he included Ivermectin on the list; a drug used for livestock. The FDA and the CDC warned
against using to treat COVID. - Turns out I got COVID. (video continues playing)
Look, they put a yellow filter on me too. (Sanjay laughing) They did. Did you see the original
video, versus that? I look like there. Did you know that?
- I think you look good. - Pause, it's enough, that's enough Jamie. - I don't think Erin had glee. - Oh, well it's more Brian
Stelter, was the gleeful one. But the point is, that's a lie. - It can be used for humans, I get it. - Not just, "Could be used for humans," is often used for humans, along with all the other drugs I took. All human drugs. They know it's a human drug. - It's right. - And they lied.
- But the thing is-- - It's defamatory. - Yeah, they shouldn't have done that. - It's defamatory, right? - Well, I don't know if it's defamatory. - I bet it is. - Well, I'm not a
lawyer, I'm not a lawyer. - [Rogan] It's a lie. - Well, see, here's the thing. You can have nuanced
discussions about this. - (laughs) No you can't.
- Yeah you can. - You can't have nuanced
discussions about lying about someone taking horse dewormer.
- Shh, there was no glee, by the way, from her. - Well, I didn't watch her.
- I don't think anyone takes people's illness--
- Oh, yes they do. You stop it.
- They don't want you to get sick, Joe. - Gupta took that big knockdown punch in the previous segment. But he gets back to his feet here because Joe Rogan changed his
question very slightly from, "Do you think that it's
a problem that CNN lied?" To, "Why did CNN lie?" And that gives Gupta the
wiggle room he needs to say, "I don't know." His best answer yet. He is essentially letting
himself off the hook. If the question is now,
"Why did they say it?" Gupta can't speak for other people. And Rogan, I believe,
loosens up here deliberately. By this point, Rogan got just
about everything he wanted. CNN's chief medical correspondent admitted that CNN got it wrong. They keep going, but this
is a good stopping point because relatively speaking, you can feel the intensity
of the conversation go up and down and gradually return to a symmetrical pattern between equals. They sound more lighthearted again. I believe I even sensed a
renewed respect for Gupta that he was willing to disagree with CNN. I think Rogan said, like a boxer here, "You felt my power, good enough." They're still sparring and Gupta even achieved some
symbolic counter punches here. The specific CNN segment Rogan showed, didn't really demonstrate any glee. He diffused things a
little more when he said, "I'm not a lawyer." Gupta looks and sounds, by the end, that he's got some of his confidence back and Rogan lets him finish the round. (bell dinging)
So let's go to the scorecard. I'm going to score this round 10-8. Rogan knocked him down
and clearly won the round. There's no question, but
did he knock Gupta out? No, but I don't think he
wanted to knock him out. Gupta admitted that CNN was wrong. And that's the victory. I give Rogan credit for not
grinding Gupta into a pulp when he could have. For Gupta's part, I respect the effort, he
showed up on the podcast, he admitted CNN shouldn't
have said what they said, but I'm scoring it 10-8 and not 10-7 because first, he never used
Rogan's phrase, "They lied." He just said, "They
shouldn't have said that." CNN might not like that, but
that was good enough for Rogan. And second, he got up. He outlasted the much more
humiliating questions. "How does it feel to work for liars? Does that bother you
that you work for liars?" That was Gupta's own phrase that Rogan was using to punish him. But if you look back, he never answered that
aspect of the question. He was smart enough to see that that would have
been a total catastrophe and instead, he lived
to fight another day. My takeaway lesson for
our own conversations is that it's best to be in a conversation that's a equal back-and-forth exchange. Don't go looking for power struggles. But if you are standing on the
verifiable truth in a debate, there's no reason to compromise and meet people in the middle. How would you score the round? Was it a knockdown or a knockout? I'm not gonna debate you, but
feel free to comment below. And as usual, I'm not gonna get into the
political side of all of this. Also, let me know who
else I should react to. God bless and I will see
you in the next video.
