Comedian Bassem Youssef on the Israel-Gaza war, the Arab Spring, and why we can’t change the world

remember when 3,000 people killed in October was too much now it's 30,000 it doesn't matter now 100,000 it doesn't matter 300,000 doesn't matter we've been lectured by the West for so long about like the values of of humanity and Declaration of Human Rights and then we just see that doesn't apply to us so kind of like you feel that maybe our people are very cheap and they don't matter hello and welcome two ways to change the world I'm Christian gir Murphy and this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas and their lives and the events that have helped shape them my guest this week is a stand-up comedian from Egypt originally but he's now American or Egyptian American and he was originally a doctor but during the Arab Spring he transitioned if that's the right word um and became um a sort of a a television s interest in Egypt until his show was no longer acceptable to the new Egyptian authorities and he had to leave the country in a hurry basam Yousef thank you very much to for coming in what an introduction thank you so much well I mean look you know you spent a lot of your life trying to change the world the world in different ways no I I spend most of the time trying to get people off my back like you know my parents wanted me to go to medicine so I went to medicine to get them off my back you know I I get into comedy people want me to do something so I do them so I get it's always a it's kind of a necessity so you never really wanted to be a doctor I find that hard to believe cuz you you got far no yeah I know but I hated every minute of it I did it because there was no other choice in in my because in in Egypt you have like the traditional way the traditional path it's very I don't have I didn't have the uh the courage to tell my parents I want to seek my passion because honestly I didn't know what was my passion I didn't no I I there was not there's not something that I'm so passionate about that I would take a risk for it so I I hear I am 18 years old top of my class had the good grades for the medical school and they would say what what do you want to do I said I really didn't have any kind of passion to anything what did your parents do my my father was a judge my mom was a a university Professor but of course in Egypt it's either an engineer or a doctor right so my father my my my older brother became an engineer so I had to you had to do I I I have to kind of complete the Mosaic the social Mosaic and and become a doctor yeah no I mean I am also a failed doctor and that I got a place in medical school and then I went into journalism instead I was thinking what what a disappointment or what disappointments we are welcome to fellow disappointments to end up talking about these kinds of things I mean you have become very famous here um partly because of a couple of interviews you've done recently about um Israel G you did one with Pierce Morgan uh that got millions and millions of views um how do you feel about that role now of sort of you know the the voice of a a dispossessed well as I said before in one of my interviews I have seen this movie before I've because in Egypt I you know I I when I switched from medicine I became I had my own television show The the show was very successful and suddenly I was said I was told the same things you're the voice of the people voice of the reolution I said guys I'm a comedian please you were the John stew of and I said and here's the problem people when people get so frustrated with with a certain issue withis topic and they find someone that they can resonate with they put all of their uh hopes and dreams and all of their expectations on that person and at the end of the day you're a human being and you you you you have limits and I have limits and at a certain point like I did in Egypt I couldn't continue anymore so I kind of bailed out because it was not safe it was too much for me here I found myself in a position where I'm defending a cause that I've never been part of you know I've not I'm not I'm not a Palestinian you know I'm I'm married to H someone who's half Palestinian and even she's not even active about it her main concern is about the kids basically but I found myself being into that position I mean your your wife had family in Gaza are they still there uh yeah they still in ra and are you in touch I mean you know they're trying to get out they they're in the process of trying to get out for a while and uh it's fine it's they have like about six or seven families uncles and cousins and stuff and they all now they all lost their homes they all they bombed and they all now cramped in one apartment in one building with sharing it with 25 other families in that building and that building could be bombed tomorrow so do you feel able to make comedy out of this situation my show that I tour with Now does not have anything to do with the current events uh I try to avoid it explain when I had this kind of optick of Fame and I'm I'm booking my shows people come and expect that I will talk about what's happening yesterday or the day before and I said no that's it's not that how it works and I I find it very hard to actually make fun of or make comedy out of it yeah I mean like it happens when every now like when I go on a certain interviews I I I I it's just like the absurdity of it you know like how Israel like bomb everyone was like ah sorry guys oops we didn't mean to let's go on it just it's very this is like what happened to it with the with the central Global Central Kitchen World Cal kitchen World Central Kitchen yeah they killed seven people it's like ah we're sorry guys I mean war war is terrible and then the second of they said it's Hamas and then third ah it was us and then ah war war is bad guys I mean sorry I know we're sorry and then they would even have their Twitter account saying this is the difference between Hamas and Israel because Israel acknowledges this mistake and apologizes bravo bravo beautiful and then they even one of the said like look what ham made us do just like I mean you don't even need to actually write any jokes about this it's just like their atrocities are like you know like when Donald Trump was present and he was saying like one horrible thing after the other you lose count and it doesn't become funny anymore that's exactly what's happening there no I mean that's the point isn't the you know the world in so many ways is beyond satire and yet yeah but at a certain point it's it stops being funny yeah you are able to sort of make I mean you are able to make fun of people in certain I mean you know you made fun of Pierce Morgan in that interview you made fun of Ben Shapiro you you'll make fun of Israel right now people don't know how to react to that do they because you don't you don't know whether to laugh because you don't know whether you whether it's okay sad to laugh when people are being killed because it's very sad it's very sad the fact that like you tell like we we should upload Israel for warning civilians before bombing them wow dude how amazing how lovely it just it's it's it's that's very sad I don't know it's it's funny and sad in the same time don't you think you know it's like the fact that they lie I mean the fact that like when Israel said like Hamas has like a a base military base under the hospital do you have any proof here's a CGI video what that's what we have and you have to believe it but if you don't believe it you're anti-semitic o You're anti-semite do you get a accused of that of course of anti-Semitism I'm an anti-semitic yeah it's funny because in Egypt I was accused of being a secret Jew and a mad agent and now I come to America to be accused of being anti- Semitic and how do you deal with that what do you say you laugh like this oo I'm so afraid now it doesn't mean anything this accusation of anti-Semitic it it's it's it's it's an empty accusation it doesn't mean anything now but it's it's one of the worst accusations why why why is it you know being being accused of being a racist or an anti you understand that I'm a Semite myself right yeah yeah so it doesn't make any sense you understand this of course in that and you understand like the fact that you say anybody is anti-semite doesn't mean anything because they call other Jewish people anti-semites right our self-hating Jews sorry they changed the N yeah oh you're self-hating Jews it doesn't matter it doesn't matter so well that yeah so do you think the power of that accusation is ebbing away yeah people don't care anymore people it's it's people are making fun of this accusation because basically Israel is saying we will do whatever we want and because we are semites and if you speak about anything October 7th October 7th and you're anti-semite it's just you see the narrative it's become so tired and so exhausting and just devoid of of anything of meaning well what do you think about the other the flip side of that which is when people accuse Israel of a holocaust or a genocide or you know and they turn those words back on Israel and say well look at what you're doing when obviously the numbers do not compare so you know and when you talk about genocide or you know you think about um Rwanda or Cambodia or uh the second world war or you know millions of people dying do you think that's an appropriate accusation to level we have to wait until million Palestinians were killed then genci of course yeah yeah what happens is that it just it's not genocide it's just like light ticket so what point remember enhan interrogation the water boarding it's not torture it's enhanced interrogation it's too much killing how about that it's just that's why I don't even like engage about because it's just words you genocide not genocide genocide genocide and as me and you wasting time deciding if it's genocide or not already 10 people were shot as we speak yeah is it a where is the proportionate response what what how can Israel do is Israel as as we are discussing this arguments right 15 people are killed like well does Israel have the right to exist what should they do as we're discussing this book 50 people were killed it doesn't matter all of these conversation about the media is just like sickening because it just gave Israel more time to do whatever they do on daily basis which is increased killing so whatever definitions we're discussing defending whatever self-defense War terrorism it doesn't matter it doesn't matter the whole system seems to be designed for Israel just doing whatever they want and on their spare time they come in and they piss you off with these discussions so so what what did what have you worked out then about the power of a TV show like the one you had in Egypt or like The Daily Show in America where you saiz power you make fun of politicians and then they take power uh and they win anyway you know I mean The Daily Show in America was this sort of vaunted thing that people think is absolutely amazing John Stewart's back on it it's very funny but it's not going to stop anything happening is it mhm yeah it's a illusion of free freedom of expression it's an illusion yeah just explain my show is an illusion all of all of this is illusion we're wasting our other people Time by talking about stuff thinking that we can actually make a change well the world doesn't even change I mean it's just it's it's it's right there how many un resolutions how many security CS it doesn't matter it doesn't matter really we can talk and we shout and we can cry and we can jump and we Stomp and at the end of the day the people in power doing whatever they want did you feel that your show was pointless or was not was powerless yeah at at the beginning I had hope but at a certain point just it doesn't matter when you when you started out doing that when you were first off show I was enjoying the what did you think you were going to be doing here's the thing here's the thing I like making fun of people in power it's a beautiful thing and I think it is it is the measure of a Democratic Society at a certain time when I could do it you become disfranchised and you lose hope like you know and then you come to United States and you think that there is hope because you can speak about anything you want but but then you speak about stuff and it doesn't matter you vote who for whoever in office and it doesn't matter because whoever you vote for doesn't really follow your direction or doesn't really work for your special interest it works for the special interest of the people who give him money for the next election cycle are you going to vote in this I don't think so I don't think so I've been disfranchised from the whole Democratic uh process and I'm I'm very sad to say this because like like what what what is the reason if what what is the point of like giving my vote for someone who at the end of the day will work for special groups that would that will pay him much more than I will ever pay him and then they will go on and do and then do legislation that doesn't work for mine for my own interest it just it doesn't make any sense you understand but if you if you are faced with a choice between Joe Biden and Donald Trump I you're prepared to say I'm not going to take the choice I'm not faced with any choices that's not I'm but that is the choice that's being put isn't it I don't have to take any where does that leave your power to complain then I don't know if you haven't I don't know exercise the choice this is all new to me I'm discovering the living in the new world do do you like it I love it what what do you love about America America is a great place to live it's a great I mean I'm of course I'm I'm I'm very disenfranchised by its policies but you know it's a great people are wonderful it's a great place to live it's a good place to raise your kids I'm not going to lie I mean I'm I'm not complaining about America as the place but as many Americans they don't like their policies of their countries as many British people they don't like the policies of their uh like you know the British government it is fine to be disfranchised by the policies of your government do you feel free there in a way that you didn't yeah I feel free to say whatever I want which is great I mean again but what I'm saying is that I'm just in in the in the in the phase of my life like I'm discussing like what does it mean to be Freedom it's just like be you voicing your opinion or does actually your opinion have an impact and can change things or maybe they're just like maybe we're not we don't matter maybe the not our numbers don't matter and uh I don't know I'm still discovering this whole new world my friend but you're sounding very um well sort of almost nihilist you know sort of so cynical Beyond wouldn't you well I mean you know I I talk to a lot of people who who have reason to feel that way I suppose but I mean I'm actually surprised that you even have optimistic what where does this optimis come from why are you optimistic why am I optimistic I don't know that I am optimistic but I spend but I but I spend a lot of my time talking to people who think they can change the world and and who who want to change the world maybe I came to the wrong podcast and and make it a better place well maybe but and and and it's quite interesting to talk someone who's much more this is the face of someone who's doing comedy well it's well it's well it's quite refreshing to talk to somebody who says well you know what you can't yeah um but I wonder whether that's what you really believe or whether that's just a phase you're going through maybe maybe it's my midlife crisis I just turned 50 so I'm I'm I'm getting used to the this whole sense of Doom because you sound like somebody who must have been more optimistic early on in life despite your sort of there came a time yeah when we were optimistic yes were you optimistic about the Arab Spring when it happened did you think it was actually going somewhere yes we did yes a lot of us did what did you think was going to happen ah you know the dream of democracy and you know having a good Democratic secular country how and that hosy Mubarak would go and that you would elect some leader that you all wanted is that what you thought yes yes yes we were so naive cu cu when you think back to what happen so fine you know you have this Arab Spring Mubarak goes Mory comes in the Muslim Brotherhood guy um what did you think when he thee Minister I was fine when when he's the president I didn't mind him being the president and I but the thing is you it's just very complicated for the people who don't didn't live in Egypt but the Muslim Brotherhood at at time they many of them use like democracy as a way to get into power but then it's it's it's kind of like sabotaging all of the tools of democracy so they continue staying in power and uh they I don't I I I don't think that yeah I for the year that they stayed there was like certain um worrying signs I don't think that you see he should have been removed I celebrated him being removed because there was some Danger on my own life from them because under the Muslim brother I was arrested I was interrogated I was had my show being threatened and then under the military I had even that worse worse stuff happening I mean we need to remind people that there was basically a military coup yeah after Muhammad Mory who had been democratically elected as president failed to unite country and failed to get International support yeah I mean I and I have to say that at the beginning like I was happy because he was removed because again when you're into it and there's personal danger at you so at the the begin it's like yes and it's like no that's wrong what's happening that's actually where were swapping a a a religious fascism with a military Fascism and then eventually I I was I was kicked out myself because your comedy became too dangerous I don't know because I continued doing the same with the new regime and I didn't like it and I lost my show canceled a couple of times and I was K and I had to leave did you fear for your life I guess so yeah or or was it or did you think you were going to be locked up both both yeah yeah I I went through a a whole lot of emotions man there's a lot of trauma that I went through okay I don't want to dig the trauma up you don't want to dig it up please don't but give me a sense of what you were going through 11th of November 2014 uh I lost an arbitration case that has related to the cancellation of my show and in arbitration there's no jail time that's the r but the lawyer said like dude forget about laws and and you have to leave right now because this is but this is what's going to happen they're going to go come to you they're going to prevent you from leaving they take your passport they got put you in jail so I left uh and I left Egypt 2014 never went back uh and I had to start all over again in a new country uh new language doing standup comedy in my second language this is the tour that I'm doing right now and uh it was a kind of a a very interesting Journey going through all of that and uh going to the the disappointments going to the setbacks and trying to find yourself from the beginning and trying to figure out who you are in this world a year ago or so my standup comedy became better and I was selling more tickets and actually putting putting more people in seats and then the the the the interviews with people happen and then I exploded and that when people came I always say that the timing was right because if that happened two years ago I wasn't ready so when you say it's your story where does it begin well it begins from Egypt when I was a doctor had to leave that doing the the show and then uh I talk about like being interrogated the scene of interrogation is very funny it wasn't that then but it's it is now uh because I was interrogated for my jokes and then going to America finding myself under like when Trump becoming president tell me about the interrogation don't move on I I cannot burn that there you can come to my show and watch it I'm not going I'm not going to ruin my show here I'm not to give spoilers and what does American citizenship mean to you now it means that I don't have to apply for visas anymore is it is it is it practical more than El it's the most no first of all it it is of course it's practical the fact that you can just like you understand like 40 years of my life 45 years of my life I had an Egyptian passport and I had to wonder I you had to plan any travel in month and even year in advance you have to have the shenen Visa the UK Visa the American visa the Canadian visa the visas for whatever it is crazy you understand you understand like as an I I think like you allowed to go without a visa to only 19 or 20 countries with and then suddenly the whole world opens for you I can just like wake up get into a car go to the airport go to any country I want except a few ones but I'm not very sure I want to go there but it's do you understand the kind of Freedom can I take you back to the Arab Spring just for a minute because I covered both the the initial spring and then the end of Mori I remember thinking I don't know what it is that people are addicted to here is it is it Revolution that they like is it is it the sort of the promise of something being better because it always seemed to me that whatever people wanted was undeliverable you know the sort of the hope of something that was brilliant after Mubarak the hope of something that was brilliant after Mory people were always going to be disappointed because Egypt's problems were basically economic and political it's funny but I mean in Europe which is has a very stable democracies for 50 years there are people going on demonstration I mean look at France they have a strike every two days yeah so I mean why are you pinning it on us as if we are the only one who have to just accept things as we are don't we want don't we have to Aspire for something better well like the French people have everything and then they still go on strikes and they paralyze the whole country why don't you ask them that same question why is it also have to be us well because it's a slightly different thing that happened isn't it I mean they were revolutions they were overthrows yeah the people they weren't just they were not overthrow protest is sort of you know I know but the overthrow happened by the Army not the people so just explain that it happened by the Army not the people I mean the people who had the power to remove the authorities not the people in the street you can put a million people in the street doesn't matter just like at the end of day if the Army doesn't move there not going to be a cool and so the Army have always retained power yeah and still do today of course since 1952 it's always been the army so what does that mean for people's ability to change things in their own countries I don't know you need to ask the Western countries that uh support these military regimes all around the world and then they complain about why don't we have democracies in these parts of the world I this is the the the most incredible question ask like why don't you have democracy like I like I don't know because you keep selling arms to these people yeah well and CC came to Britain to be trained and uh all of these you know regimes are your mine I don't know no I me I mean Egyptian Military generals are often have have have been through history been trained in British military establishments so you're right you know these things are propped up by the international order mhm so I'm just trying to get to sort of you know the sort of the cynicism that you have about people's abilities to change the world my cynicism see on the one hand you talk about you know people are right to sort of complain and people are right to want better I mean they could complain but on the other hand do you think they're going to make it yes they can they can complain but like listen there's two different things they have the right to complain your question is will that change the world yeah and I say I don't think so but in the same time I cannot tell them not to complain it's not really mutually exclusive right it's like it's you can you can have both I don't Ian look at me for example I go and and I about what Israel does does that change anything no do I keep doing it yes why because I have nothing else to do what what do you think should happen now on that where on on the Israel question do you think things are changing do you think International opinion is changing at all well do you think International opinion is changing at all you know there's a there's a sense it doesn't matter it doesn't matter that's the second question but yeah it doesn't matter that's it exactly does it change maybe does it matter no because like what is like what people don't like Israel now do they care well have they slowed down the killing no have they stopped killing people no have they stopped have they stopped violating every single uh international law article no does it matter no will it change anything no they don't understand but one uh language which is power and force and there's no pressure or power from them to United States which is their own sponsor and sometimes I wonder who leads the so it's not going to happen I mean I I understand why you say you feel disenfranchised and you don't want to choose between Biden and Trump but do you think America will be different depending on who wins the election I am biased against Trump I think he can make changes that affect even freedom of expression and democracy but that's my biased maybe I'm misinformed maybe it's going to be better uh I had certain bias about Biden uh I thought that he would be a better president he's not so I was wrong about that especially in what happened in Gaza I don't know I am I honestly I honestly like this conflict has been very um emotionally demanding that I can't even imagine what America would be under either of them the conflict in Gaza you mean yeah can you tell me a little bit about that I mean in what way is it emotionally demanding for you beyond the obvious I mean I mean the thing is like remember when 3,000 people killed in October was too much now it's 30,000 it doesn't matter now 100,000 it doesn't matter 300,000 it doesn't matter we've been lectured by the West for so long about like the values of of humanity and Declaration of Human Rights and then we just see that doesn't apply to us so kind of like you feel that maybe our people are very cheap and they don't matter and it doesn't matter how many people were killed what do you mean by our people Palestinian people I mean at the end of they were Arabs right because it's if it's not because we all linked together Arab Muslims Middle Eastern whatever you know and I wonder like what will happen if my daughter like you know grows up and and put like a Palestinian and goes in a demonstration when she's 20 years old would she be arrested for being a terrorist I don't know this whole thing like stacking the whole world opinion against us and making the whole world accepting that we just die in in huge numbers I don't I I didn't hear about any other population that lost uh 2% of its population in less than 6 months I didn't hear about that and uh it's happening right in front of our hours and nobody's caring nobody cares I'm just talking about it when you say nobody cares yeah what would you have to do to show that you care me I have one any any other person people in power United States they have to stop Israel and I'm going to and I'm going to say this I'm going to repeat it in every single interview if the Gaza War stops today you know what's the worst thing that could happen people will congratulate and praise Israel for stopping the war now instead of holding it accountable for the the stuff that's done for the past six months this the scary part they might even give the Nobel Prize Peace Nobel Prize to Netanyahu for just stopping 30,000 people if the war stops today people will praise Israel for self-constraint well I mean it's it's quite common at the end of Wars for war leaders to then be awarded peace prizes absolutely which is always extraordinary but what do you think should happen is should be held accountable and be taken to the criminal court and they should pay reparation and they should go in and and repair what they did because whatever happened in October 7th does not justify all of that so when you say that uh you know you feel um you're your people if you like or Palestinians are they don't count as they are human beings human being but they don't count the same way no they don't count um how many how many Palestinian kids were killed since October 7th in the West Bank 81 yeah if 81 Israeli kids were killed since October 7th what will the word do but is this a revelation to you no it's not a revelation we know this all along but when you when you when you see it you're confronted by it now because we we know we did we don't matter we don't we know that our Liv doesn't it's not that valuable we understand that we've been we've seen this a long time ago like you know when 11 people from Charlie ABDO were killed which is terrible of course everybody ju we Charlie and the war leaders went to Paris 11 people but there have 30,000 if the news to tomorrow comes out 10,000 Palestinians were killed do you think the word will make any change no I mean I I saw the the argument you made around that was about the dehumanization of Palestinians and about talking about them as animals do you think that was even needed no it's not needed but it's it's it's uh do you not mean I I mean you know CU I think you know it's is self-evident that people in some parts of the world are valued less than people in other parts of the world when it comes to death when you're in when you're living in the western world yeah the question is do do you think the Palestinians needed to be dehumanized or were they just worth less in the west both both because there in order to escalate the violence you need to remind the people how inum those people are in order to continue doing it because the Israel has been killing them on daily basis but in in order to up the violence every now and then you need a little bit of a a reminder of how inhuman those people are so it's just like a process that goes in to just help increasing the the victim tool I can see why you don't do comedy about current offense yeah because this is a dark conversation yes um and I guess an indication of where you are in your mind about this whole thing so how do you switch between that and comedy it's just a job it's a job it's my job it's not just a job it is my job it's my life load this is how I go in and the people who pay tickets to come and see make me laugh don't have to have to suffer for whatever I have to go I can have like horrible problems at home with my kids with my wife but it doesn't matter because there I'm a performer nobody cares what happens to you outside and off stage and so if if you were for a moment an optimistic person and and and and could change the world in any way how would you change it I don't know man it's a it's a very uh rhetorical question I don't know uh it just the thing is the whole big talk about changing the word doesn't do anything if you don't address the power who has the power who has the power to shape the narrative who had the power to force people to do certain things or stop people from doing certain things and the people in power don't really respond or care about any of our suggestions to CH to change the world because at a certain point if that if our ways to change the world will affect their special interest they will stop you is that what you're going to tell your kids no I will wait until they're 21 then tell them I'm not going to ruin their childhood I'm going to ruin them as they were when they were young people when they're old enough old when they're old enough to have their their lives ruined what do you think I am a mom no B youf thank you very much indeed thank you so much

Channel: Channel 4 News

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Id: CuR3BfpAqpw

Length: 31min 38sec (1898 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 11 2024