Cleared Hot Episode 105 - Evy Poumpouras

we won't talk about here's a question for you you ready for this one I'm ready have you done any more TV shows because it kind of explains how we met in the first place but do you ever really even talk about that show I don't think I've heard you discuss that I think you kind of pushed it out I was hesitant actually start like that because I I thought it would actually drive people to maybe figure out what we're talking about but no I'm not I'm not incredibly vocal about that experience neither am i yeah this how we met though kind of we actually didn't mean never physically met no you called me one day and you're like hey what in the hell is going on like okay I'm glad that somebody else is catching this vibe too yes event I think like every day or maybe 10 times a day I'm like Andy what's going on this is crazy you know I thought obviously I've thought a lot back about that experience I think I would have been more okay with it had the expert in to expectations been set differently because the way it was pitched to me was we're gonna do a reality TV show which should have been a fist full of red flags in my face just a fist full of that flags that I completely ignored and they just kept saying hey it's gonna be it's gonna be real we're gonna play it real time and so I went into that obviously very naively that was my first experience doing any type of TV and rapidly discovered that it was anything other than reality like when people say reality TV what I think they mean is not reality and it drove me nuts it drove me batshit crazy I remember that one speed down for everything you can't work good so I call you up all the time remember that one time I called you up for something I don't remember what was going on and you weren't answering and then I text you I'm like why are you you're like I'm going home yeah I was in my truck and I come out here do you mean you're going home use knob shot of the highway you having from Ali Diego what are you doing we're filming um I'm not filming anymore I was I was done at that point so we should probably actually tell people we're talking about so it was a CBS show called hunted yes in the reality TV show category and like all I can say is it was a that was it was special it was special was that your first thought was interior that was it I've done news I've seen you on the news quite a bit actually since then I didn't use quite a bit covering national security covering law enforcement crime that was my first TV show and it was pitched to me a certain way as it was pitched at you and but I had never met you we talked for months well we talked during that time yes right I was in Atlanta you were in LA and the first time I met you was when we went skydiving mmm which was my first time skydiving yeah who's mine too no that's right I forgot I took you for a tandem yes I was like Andy I've never jumped out of a plane I was like well if I'm gonna jump out of a plane it's gonna be with a former SEAL so there you go not all former seals are good at jumping you should know that okay I knew you yes I took it a little bit further than most guys did because I'd loved it so I went and pursued additional qualifications your average military jumper probably has about a hundred jumps after a decade it's low you don't want to strap yourself to that person so use with caution it's probably somebody listening to this don't just go try to find some excuse like hey let's do a tandem it may not work out well well you're the only person I ever jumped well there you go you're gonna be safe I always tell people we're all gonna die but you're not gonna die jumping with me though you might get hurt but we're probably not gonna die how did you transition though from jumping to BASE jumping um I always wanted to ask you that because it just seems such a different they're similar in a lot of ways like you're using a parachute well you at some point falling through the air the body positions are the same the biggest difference is so right when we did our jump a tandem jump did you ever get that sensation that you were falling like this stomach rising it's a lot of people equate with going over the top of a roller coaster ride you get that stomach rise sensation did you get that when we went out of the airplane I would say you probably didn't if I had asked you the day that we don't most people will say that they didn't because the aircraft is already moving it's probably going close to hundred miles an hour so when you jump out you already have that forward speed you continue to accelerate but you're not going from zero miles an hour to 100 so there's no sensation of falling when you skydive when you step off of a static object the opposite is true like you get that rise in your stomach because you're going from nothing and you feel that acceleration so that's certainly different it was something that I was curious about I wasn't able to do while I was in the military it was actually expressly prohibited not that that stopped everybody but I wanted to wait until I got out and I did it by researching on the Internet I just started googling who has the most BASE jumps in the world I was just trying to find like the number one person who had survived in that world for the longest and was still thriving and the name that I kept getting from people that I knew in the skydiving world was miles Dasher who he is awesome good friend mine he lives in Twin Falls Idaho and I went to the drop zone and found somebody who had known him for decades before that got an email address sent him a blind email he responded and I said hey let's do this and send him a check and met him at the bridge in Idaho completely blind and he started teaching me and then he really kind of mentored me through for the next two or three years all the way out to he taught me how to fly a wingsuit because first ship to base jump you have to you need to learn how to skydive first and then if you want a base jump you need to learn how to base jump they're similar but different then if you want to put a wingsuit on in wingsuit base jump you need to learn how to do that skydiving so I actually had to fly the suit and then you add that into the BASE jumping world and I did my first wingsuit base job and Italy it off Monta brento so we did a month-long trip started at Italy and then into the lauterbrunnen valley in Switzerland and he showed me all over that place but took a long time I would think it's different because when you jump out of a plane in the beginning you're doing tandem jump so you can get used to it you don't have to do a tandem jump it's actually a choice you can go and you can jump out on your own you're being held on two on both sides though so you you have your own parachute and you're responsible for flying it after it opens but you have people holding onto you on each side when your base jump you are on your own which is why you need to come into that with some experience in this guy diving world like the probably the biggest thing is learning how to control the canopy how to fly it because in BASE jumping like it skydive San Diego where we did our tandem there's a huge grass area you know where you can land anywhere you want to BASE jumping some areas or maybe the size of a tennis court and you have to be able to maybe surrounded by trees or boulders because you're jumping off of something and they're not thinking about the construction phase of that where should we put a landing zone so you're kind of forcing an activity onto something that's pretty existing that's awesome I don't look at it as insane I look at it as a calculated risk which I actually have drastically backed off of in the last few years I don't know if I'll ever base jump again actually skydiving is a different story it's much safer because you're higher you have a reserve parachute all that stuff and I've I mean I've been skydiving for over 20 years now so it's I literally do it sometimes with my eyes closed I'll just sit there and I think you can took a nap when I was up there with you no wait I fall asleep on the planes all the time one of the fastest ways to get me to go to sleep is to put me into an airplane it's taxing on the ground or flying I like no do you like Andy look look Mexican border over there yeah yeah it's a great drop zone you can see the San Diego Bay you can see all the downtown San Diego you can see Tijuana the hills out east of San Diego it's a cool place yeah it's like it was ten minutes from my old house so I drink a cup of coffee in the morning drop the kids off at school sit in the backyard I would hear the plane take off and just go out there and jump all day long every day is awesome it's really cool it was cool I don't have the chance to do that here in Montana anymore but you know if you look at the mountain snows coming down so I'll just go snowboarding I saw the completing with landing yeah have you ever been to Montana I've been I may have been when I was with the president during hit one of his campaigns probably Obama I don't remember because we sometimes we would do Obama did come to the Whitefish Mountain Resort I have seen pictures of Blackhawks landing up there and I have to assume that was part of his advance or how he got there it's possible because sometimes especially during a campaign year like the 2012 campaign year we do five states in two days yeah and so there are times why I wouldn't know what state we were we were in we'd land and in that moment I knew well then you just get back up on the plane it's like all right now we're going to Texas now we're going here and now we're going there so it was a whirlwind but I did drive from was it last summer the summer before I drove from New York City to Vancouver and I Pat I drove through Montana I did that that I remember why did you choose to do that that is not a short drive that was my husband that's fair you think I want to see yeah you want to see the US I want to see the US which is fine but the first half of the trip it's all highway I was just gonna say you don't see me when you go east of the Rockies you see gas station it's what you see may be sometimes corn fields or whatnot you know that was the only let down that first part of it that first half you do really don't see the US I think after you hit that midway point then you start seeing really a country it was nice I will never do it again I want to take you I think five days it sounds about right five days it was a lot we drove a lot the last few days of that are gonna be the best as soon as you start hitting the topography of the Rockies in the western states yes No then you're happy yes we went through I think Wyoming Montana Seattle then up to Vancouver that part was nice awesome yeah yes won't be doing it a lot to sit in that car have you ever done a cross-country multiple times when we moved yeah we moved from San Diego to Virginia Beach and then Virginia Beach back and drove both of those times with you halls but I feel like you were going with a purpose you're going to move he wanted to do it as a vacation my husband did you guys drive back from Vancouver [Laughter] um plane yes no no no you do no no you made the right call yeah I would even if I had taken my personal vehicle consider flying back and figuring out a different way to get the car back as opposed to doing that drive in both directions and I don't think the purpose makes a difference it was a long drive once she got passed we would did the southern route once you got past Denver it's flat wouldn't the military move your your stuff for you they can and we've taken advantage of that but you still have to drive your personal vehicles I'm trying to remember how they did it in the service I want to say that they probably somewhere you might be right I'm trying to remember because I mean I only really went from New York City to Washington DC cuz I was state I first started in New York then I went to Washington DC because we have different phases and our mmm career the first phase is you start off as an investigator a lot of people don't know what we do investigations before you get into that we should start back at the beginning because we oh yeah opened up on talking about a TV show that don't go watch people please but it is how we met so that's awesome it is it's true I will let you introduce yourself because I will mess it up okay um so let's see I'm Evy mm-hmm and I am from New York New York City I was born and raised there I started in the NYPD very briefly when I graduated college and then what do you get your degree I studied political science and I actually studied Fine Arts - I loved art drawing painting and then my mother's like you know my mother my parents are immigrants they came from Greece my last name is one of the most Greek last names ever Evie it's Evie boom Buddhist but in English or American it's pauperis or whatever people want to call me which it's fine I never take offense it's a multi syllable last name I just have you my phone as EVP so when I love the art of mime I remember my mother she's like you can't believe on that are you gonna make money so I studied government study political science and I worked for a congresswoman for about two years but as an intern it was great and then honestly I was trying to figure my way around everything I've graduated school and I don't know what I was gonna do and I had an AA job in a office doing underwriting accounting underwriting I don't even know it was for AIG had you an insurance group and I remember sitting at my desk thinking this this is it like this what I went to school for and I only did it for a couple of months and as I remember one damn I'm on the New York City Subway going from Queens to the World Trade Center the World Trade Center but that's where our office was near there at the time and I'm sitting back and I'm really stressed out and I see the subways doors open and I see this New York City police officer hanging out he's just sitting there and he was was back in the day when it was a little different he's got just beer belly hanging out he's in his uniform leaning back are you sure it's that different disrespect to any of them but I see often people in the first-responder world who are gonna need a first responder if something happens well that's because you go through training you get in great shape but then after that there's no there's no standard there's no testing knows nobody coming and saying hey you have to maintain this so one time standard then you through the test gave correct at least that's how it wasn't the NYPD I don't know if it's changed since then when I went to my latter agency the US Secret Service that was different we had standards we had to keep but I remember the subway doors opening and seeing this police officer thinking I could do that so most people grow up thinking this is what I want to do when I grow up yes I'm not that person so that night I go home and I called to one to recruit because there was no internet back then none of that stuff here is this to 1999 or 2000 there was the internet it just wasn't what it is wasn't what it is today yeah so I found out what the number was so it's to one to recruit I remember I call up and this guy picks up as a yellow recruit so something like hello sir you think yeah what do you want I was like well I I want to I didn't know what to say I was like I want to be a police officer he's like you do huh and I was like well what do I need to do is that why are you lucky you ain't got a test coming up and he's like all right I was like what is he sick next week he gave me the address like here you go is the address you think what's your name if I start spelling he said what kind of name is that you say nevermind don't tell me so I was like what do I do he's like just take the test he's like good luck kid click it was like literally a two-minute call and I just show up to this high school on a weekend I think it was and I go in and you take a written exam I don't remember what the exam was called I should and you take the exam and then you see if you pass if you pass or based on your score you get called in and so I passed the exam I ended up doing really well which surprised me because you know those standardized tests standardized tests like SATs all that stuff I was horrible that stuff and then they just call you is like come on in and then there's a series of things that they make you do some physical stuff some medical stuff to see if you can withstand certain things I remember them running like a an electric current through my body just to see like yeah it was something with a almost I think like the way you do heart for the gee-gees they might have been that but I remember them it was kind of connected in different parts of my body and they wanted just to see if I was healthy enough I wonder if they were giving you like a stress test of some kind I think that I think that's what it might have been I was so truly I was so clueless I you know and I'm thinking oh a New York City police academy it'll be like college did you have any idea what you were getting into zero zero zero clueless clueless I like I did like the idea of helping people yeah I always kind of we grew up in I don't want to say poverty we weren't we weren't very poor but we grew up or I lived in low-income housing as my parents were immigrants when they came to the United States and so we were victims of crime quite a bit and so I always grew up with this kind of thing feeling that I had to know how to protect myself I always wanted to protect my family so I think I didn't realize I was going through this path maybe subconsciously but it just kind of happened and so you go through the testing and then there was this one test where in the NYPD there's a 12 pound trigger is what they call it so not all police departments have it not when you pull the trigger of your handgun it's 12 pounds and it can be very taxing on your hand why would it be set to 12 pounds so it's set to 12 pounds so that you can't pull it quickly because there have been incidents in the past historically and I want to say goes back to and I could be mistaken I'm going to Diallo shooting where they had shot him I believe it was around four police officers shot him 41 times yeah and people were kind of looking at this how these horrible police officers how can you do that and what you don't realize is that when you're in a stressful situation sometimes you don't realize in your moment of panic like how many times you're actually pulling that trigger and so my understanding was they instilled this 12 pound trigger pull that way you are having to work each time you pull that trigger and let me tell you when you're on the range practicing it was it your hands would get really tired you know I don't know what the triggers I know what the triggers were set for on the rifles and it was substantially lower than that that's interesting I mean there's another approach to that it's just to give your people better training because that did happen in my old job too I mean you would have people who I mean you know there's 80s and end these accidental discharges and negligent discharges and I suppose having a higher trigger pole could reduce some of those but I think the key to that is just more training in practice because a 12-pound pick-up trigger pole on a pistol is ridiculous it was every single every single pole and it's probably likely to decrease your accuracy well one of the tests what they do is they took give me I remember they gave me a gun I never held a gun before and it was a Smith & Wesson and there was a metallic triangle not very big maybe about this size and they put my hand through it and he with one hand and he instructor was pull the trigger and I had to pull it without tapping the triangle you know interesting the minute you tap the triangle I mean you hear that you fail and the first time I did it I failed because I know they're checking probably for fatigue and just the Antiguan I didn't have it at that time and luckily for me I guess didn't have enough people they called me back they liked it coming back again will let you do it again what happens our tests put your hand in that metal triangle and we're gonna see if you contact the edge when you pull the trigger absolutely I've never heard of that yeah I wonder where they got that from I don't know I don't know I mean I thought I understand why they did it but I think for someone like me who hadn't done any of that stuff I mean I knew later on to build strength in my hands yeah um but I guess I can understand them wanting to make sure you have the physical strength to do it and that you're capable of doing it I suppose so how was the rest of the Academy well you don't even into it yet you're still so I pass everything there's multiple tests I passed all the different phases and then they call they I remember working my job and they call me up and they're like hey you passed everything do you want the job I was like yes I'd love it all right they're like you started - it was Friday they're like you start Monday no they wait I use I have to give my boss two weeks what two weeks notice I was like they're like yeah well you know this is how we work I'm like you don't do the whole two weeks notice thing they're like nope you want it you got to be here on Monday so will this will you know either C or you don't we don't and I showed up that Monday I went and of course the place where I quit AIG was furious with me cuz I didn't give him proper notice but I worked that weekend I remember trying to tie up whatever accounts I had I show up on that Monday and he had zero clue as to what I was walking into it's paramilitary which I had no no I roll in there and I walk in it did you just say this is gonna be like college yeah oh my god the truth zero clue I didn't grow up in a military family I didn't grow up and mind you my parents don't know any of this because they they were afterward after I got in and I told him going to be to the New York City Police Academy they were so upset with me so was that they couldn't I don't think they're gonna understand why I wanted to do it and I think we came look my parents grew up in a village and they were poor they never went to college they these were things that were really outside the norm he didn't do these type of things and they were kind of like your girl girls don't do these things and I remember going through the Academy and it was hard for me because I I went in not understanding what I was walking into best experience of my life by the way and I remember my mom and my dad they wouldn't speak to me there was suckers at the time I lived at home but you know going back to the first day at the academy our role in there and they have us you start teaching us front leaning rust and standing at attention probably rest is a push up people listening I don't know any of this stuff other than what I see on TV and I'm thinking why is he teaching us this little did I know that this is these are the tools part of the process and it was that first week the training everything so just to give you an idea there were 1,500 recruits on that Monday in the Academy yes 1500 and you were just the body and they wanted people to drop out because they just bring all these people in and they just push you and stress you out and test you and yell at you and all that stuff and then because they want people to drop out I mean it really was well they probably didn't have 1500 job openings they did not I think the graduating class was you know I don't know what the graduating class was I shouldn't say but I do remember the first month 300 people quit they just got up and left because they really push you in truth be told I was almost that person that first week I was so upset why is everybody yelling at me the system but I had zero I'm a girl from Queens I have no idea what I'm walking into and Petey was a nightmare we had this gym this huge gym and there was this green line and anybody who's been through the Academy the old Academy now they have a new one there was a green line around the gym and it was like the Green Line of death they would line us up four in a row set us up in ranks and the gym could only fit maybe a few hundred people at a time so you had to run in ranks at arm's length arm and front arm and back and if you couldn't keep up I mean they pull you out and when they pull you out it wouldn't be like oh why don't you take a tub you know rest here they put you in the middle and they'd have you do suicides up and down back and forth and you just see people is first time I saw people throw up why are we vomiting and it was brutal and I remember I know and I never ran before I never had to run I'm thinking on skini I look like I'm in shape no no the same thing so I the first week when I went running I ran around that circle and I could not keep up of course I don't want to fall out so the instructor just grabs me yanked me out puts me in the middle and I'm doing suicides and then after that I wrecked her everybody's done running they put you in the middle and then make everybody about-face to the people in the middle so you were called a fall out so I was a fall out I remember the instructor being like you see these people here you go tell these people you tell them to quit cuz they're gonna get you killed cuz when you call for for help when you call it 10:13 I believe is 1013 officer needs assistance you're gonna die because they can't come save you I like this instructor they were all like that just so you know and I was mortified mortified and I remember it was the one of the worst feelings ever had and went down to my locker room and it's like I will never fall out again and I started running every morning and every night you know I'd run if we were day shift cuz we our shifts will go from day to night so if I was day shift I'd run out during the day at the academy then run at night mm-hmm and then you know the flipside if it was night shift and I would pray I would be at my locker praying please don't let me fall out please don't let me fall out and I had a good company or class my class was a zero zero 39 my company was great I could had a lot of former military people hmm they were just fantastic they're like hey you got this and we I it was just after that I loved it it was great it was terrifying was it a living academy or did you guys go home at the end of it fifteen hundred yeah I was thinking about that I don't know about New York if they do it like off-site in like upstate and then bring you back no my Academy was actually at the time attached to the 1/3 precinct in the city so I want to say that was like 19th Street downtown and it was just the the the building was old it was decrepit staircases were falling in now they built a new Academy in College Point Queens it's much bigger but it was it was it was the best it was I hated it I was upset I remember and I did not understand what I was walking into but I'm glad I stuck it out so I really went in completely naive completely clueless like probably if you think of that movie clueless I was her too I was her and it it just shifted and then it wasn't it was while I was in there I had already applied to other agencies like DEA FBI when did you make those applications I did those before after you saw that subway cop around the time I think and I bought a book it was cool it was about international careers because I spoke different languages and I loved the world I loved traveling I studied overseas when I was in college and had picked lived in Italy so I learned Italian then I lived in Spain in Mexico and I learned Spanish and then France and so I had this love for the world but in this book called international careers he had it was it was a book I had about 300 organizations it was companies government anybody he could think of that had to adopt his overseas and so when I did my resumes I I did 300 applications I did 350 300 I sent three hundred resumes out I was like somebody's gonna give me a job somebody because I really my parents couldn't help me I did not know where to start yeah I happened to send a resume to the Secret Service did you have any idea what they did I knew they protected in the president knows it there were the guys you know I'm gonna be honest I I don't want to be that person that's like yeah I grew up this is what I wanted to do I was not her and I really kind of figured it all figured it out along the way but once I got in and I was like I'm doing this I'm committed and it changed me changed my life and so I I had happened to send out all those resumes and one day in the mail I get this government form and a small letter from The Secret Service saying hey if you're interested in applying fill in these forms and over a period of time I was doing that and then at the at the same time I was in the Academy mm-hmm and I was like oh what does it hurt and then I would just get called in for different phases of the hiring process which is a test that you have to take another written exam which was brutal was called the TA exam DEA and I think they've changed it since I thought for sure I failed it there was no like a general aptitude test basically yes but it was for me it was like the SAT on steroids and I heard that I I heard they had to change it because so many people had a hard time passing it in fact I barely passed mine I remember when they called me to say hey you passed your test I was like hold on let me spell my last name for you again cuz you might have you mixed up with why was that rough I for me it was rough and from what I know from my other colleagues everybody was like that was a rough test it was it was really a felt like an SAT exam and I'm thinking like what are we gonna be doing how's your brawling I don't understand this and so was one of the way they would filter people so when I passed it there was other phases a medical exam they need to make sure you're medically fit and then there was a polygraph which nobody loves those are fun we can talk about the administer I know for the person who hated her probably crap becoming one and so I went through that process and then finally one day I get a phone call saying hey you've you've passed through the hiring process we'd like to give you a conditional offer of employment which means you're not hired you're gonna go through training and there's two phases of training and if you pass the phases of training then we offer you a job and at this point I'm in the police academy it's been a few months in now I love it I finally figured it out I got it I'm good how long is the police academy at the time when I went to was eating okay so I'm maybe it was right before what would they call gun and shield a gun and shield day is when you take the police recruits and you actually put them on the street to work with police precinct so they can see what it's like so it's like sort of midway in the Academy they take you out and they put you on the street the crappy thing is I don't know if they still do it at the time you're when you're a cadet you're wearing a gray shirt everybody in New York knows that if you're wearing a gray shirt yeah you're the rookie yes and they put us on the street with Chris sure everybody would get their asses kicked I even initially used to take the subway to go to Academy then I stopped because this was all pre 9/11 people are really disliked law enforcement and I would people would look at me on the subway and I I went I remember one guy shoved me once and I was like you know what I'm just gonna start driving in and I started driving in with some other recruits and we would park the car yeah just because I didn't want to be out with my uniform right because people knew I was a recruit I suspect that mentality has shifted completely on its head post 9/11 it did post 9/11 but now I think her back I think today we might be back there a little bit I've had great experiences with police in New York I go infrequently and actually I'm always I always go to the 9/11 memorial that's about it and I also stayed at rubble and I just know sir yes ma'am paid stuff as well it's amazing the response would get from law enforcement when you treat him like that yes it's not typical to get that I think when you hear someone speak to you that way you know automatically this person is either military or law enforcement or has somebody in law enforcement or sociopath or sociopath how many women were in the Academy in the NYPD I have to say there were there were some women in so I went from Academy Class of 1500 to the service where it was 54 and I think we were we were four women and in your Secret Service Academy there was 54 54 how big was that class so you eventually did make the shift you decided that I did I did switch over I almost did and I remember I went to the lieutenant at the NYPD because I was like I do I want to leave and I remember one of my instructors I went to him I forgot his name funniest guy he was my behavioral science instructor I was like sir I don't know what to do Secret Service offered me this there's no guarantee he's like why do you want to go therefore he's like you only got to do 20 years for with us if you go there you got to do a full 25 he's like they're gonna make you work they're like stay here and so I went to one of the higher-ups and I laid it out I was like sir I don't know what to do and I didn't know this lieutenant and he's like sit down recruit and I remember him saying he's like look well we'll always take you back he's like do this he's like this is an extraordinary opportunity just do it you think if you don't like it just come back and I really appreciated that I don't remember his name or anything and so I ended up doing the shift and I ended up going into training so the first part of training is in the federal law enforcement training center we call it FLETC Georgia so you go through that part and that's really like the federal government isn't that the origin for DEA agents everybody yeah everybody they go there because it sets that baseline of understanding for the federal government yes so if you want to be a federal agent for the US government this is where you go and they teach you the standard for the federal government as far as how to the laws how to enact arrests the driving all that stuff they so there's like it's kind of almost getting affiliate fulfilling that standard I think everybody except the FBI goes there FBI has their own Quantico Quantico they do their own thing there so if you pass that first part of training you graduate then you go to the Secret Service training which is in Beltsville Maryland and that is now specific to the u.s. Secret Service and you how long is FLETC let's use three months and then Beltsville was three months okay and so then you do when you go to Secret Service training now it's specific to protection to the cases they work which a lot of people don't know the it's a dual mission agency so it's protection mm-hmm and then it's also investigative and that's what it was founded on right was investigation so it was created on April 14th 1865 Abraham Lincoln signed he created the US Secret Service it was a date and it was the same day he was assassinated ironically was it really he was assassinated on that same day the day created created it but it was created for counterfeit currency because at the time a third of US currency in the US was counterfeit and we were it was having was affecting the economy so Ibraham Lincoln created them for that it wasn't until 1901 after we had multiple presidents assassinated where they looked over to the Secret Service and said hey why don't you also do protection protect the president yeah so it's one of the older agencies I think Federal Mart the marshals were created before us and then we were created and then after that when they created the FBI they actually took Secret Service agents out and then created the the FBI interesting I've always found it ironic to create an organization called The Secret Service but then be public with their creation I think it's the name I think it's the name I like so much attention it's like what's going on there you don't worry about it that's the Secret Service oh really tell me more you have to admit it's a pretty legit man it's awesome it's a [ __ ] awesome it's way better than like being a seal people like what's that I'm like I don't know it's a stupid acronym leave me alone although I feel like the whole world knows what it is yeah for the wrong reasons for the wrong reasons I know I mean we used to work with seals and I remember when I do protection assignments there were there would always be members of the seals or there would be a liaison what the seals like when we work shifts and I was the one person who we just I was so always so curious so it's not like hey what was training like a natural interrogator huh hey I read this book about one guy I think I wore him out though I read this one book he's like yeah don't even don't read everything you read and I was really fascinated I was like well what's your training like because I was very curious to see the difference yeah I actually hosted the cat team for a week in when I was it development group on the East Coast they came down and used the kill house for a week and I was their liaison and just chatted with those guys the stories of which I was share after we turned the recording devices off because I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want me to share them but I ended up one of the guys is super cool I took my family up to the White House and got one of the tours at Christmastime it was really cool but yeah I I actually didn't realize that it was created for the counterfeiting until I was reading through the beginning yearbook I know yeah it's it's well for cat for your listeners it's it's our version of the cat off SWAT yep counter assault team counter assault team and they trained really intensely as well I think they're pretty they're hardcore too yeah they mean they basically showed up wearing the same stuff that we would show up on target wearing with a much more restrictive set of rules of engagement yeah it's different well because when you're in military you're operating overseas yeah and and we're not having to worry about you know the Constitution and yeah civil rights and we don't have to announce ourselves I mean I've worked with quite a few swat teams and just local police departments some of the things that they have to do in a tactical environment they just they bring the hair up on the back of my neck you know having announcing yelling their presence before they make entry like hey I'm about to come in this room obviously not saying that but when they're yelling Police Department before making entry into a room it's just like well cause it gives it gives it away it gives away that you're coming in it does but they are also surprised yeah but they're worried about getting sued and losing you know doing the correct thing on target but then losing an room that's a tough that's a tough environment to operate in people don't realize it is difficult law enforcement I had I had insurance what Oh we had we all had insurance we had I was called writing companies the company I had law enforcement insurance because it was understood at some point of your career you're gonna get sued when you were a federal agent yeah this yes there's the it wasn't it was a loan my husband still has it cuz he's in federal government I'm like no you have to keep you that you have to keep this and it's an it's an insurance policy so that way if I'm sued I have legal representation if I need it and if they sue they sue my insurance policy they don't sue me the government doesn't provide that for the federal agents they could but there are situations if if the government's for some reason says you know what that shooting incident you were in we're like we don't think we don't like it or if there's enough pressure from you know the meteor from outside they might you might be left out there on your own to figure it out well because there are times where they may not support you or there's a civil lawsuit so I had I had insurance I paid for it every year religiously so a lot of people don't realize it it's like it's like being an idea it's like being a doctor you have a lot of doctors have liability and Shannel practice insurance I had the same thing as a federal agent did you know anybody who had to use it I don't know if they use it but there were these there was these agents that I know of that were involved in a lawsuit they went in and I'm I don't remember the whole story so I may not say it correctly but they went into a home to do an arrest and when they went into the home I believe the person that at the residence was going for a weapon they took out their farms they shot the person hmm the person went down as soon as the person went down the immediately when gave him first aid medical aid and then took them to the hospital and although criminally there was no criminal charges they were correct what happens is this the person they shot took us this civil lawsuit of a lawsuit which you only need preponderance of the evidence to get that and they were involved in this lawsuit for years years and I remember one of them he had he had been in the New York field office with both of them had been and then we ended up being on the president's detail together and I remember one day and it kind of broke my heart he looked over at me and he said you know if I knew then what I know now he's like maybe I would have been a little bit slower taking my gun out of my holster he's like it wasn't worth all this that I've been through that's a very dangerous headspace to get into I think cuz he had just been through so much and they had been dragged through the mud and I think their names were in the papers and it was a legit it was it was a little Jitsu but it was just the the ordeal of it and what I mean by that it's as dangerous to have people thinking about in the back of their mind that's the last thought that you want to have in that environment I think I think a lot of it law enforcement I think the day made me feel that way how could they not I mean it's definitely trial by popular opinion before it ever is gonna go to a trial by a jury and I mean you work in the news celebrity if you will kind of laid off then use a bit but I bet you they reach out anytime there's a high-profile incident and they want to get your opinion on it and in my experience people will ask me for my opinion on it all the time too and I always say the same thing I don't know I wasn't there and I'm not gonna I am NOT gonna cast judgment on somebody in a tactical situation that most people would never understand because there's a process for the investigation to conduct itself and then we're gonna get tried by a jury of their peers and if they're found guilty then maybe we can talk about it and if they're found innocent we can talk about it the same time but until then I have nothing to offer because I understand the complexity of making decisions in those environments it is so complex and I think when you see a snapshot picture of what happens and I'm not saying there's some situation where you're thinking that is bad that is a bad situation that's a bad shoot then there's some situations where I can understand it like I can see that maybe I could have made that choice or been involved in that and it's very difficult to show somebody a snapshot of this happened oh my gosh this person was unarmed but the thing is you don't know they're unarmed until after it's it's over sometimes does not mean not a threat or not dangerous correct I mean it's we operated on the saint we had a very actually I would say pretty strict ro II overseas and you had to have either hostile intent our hostel after the combination of the two and nowhere in there does it say that they have to have a weapon well I remember because I struggled with this because I'm not a big person and I remember when we did rules of engagement and tactical training I always I was very I don't ask my instructors like can I shoot someone who is bigger than me we can I if I had and you know what are do I have different parameters every you would have to shoot everybody that is not I am stealth mode do not listen to the side really erased later and so what what would be the situation because hand-to-hand combat with somebody who's maybe six foot five 300 pounds I would I don't care how much tactical training you think I have I'm there's a very good chance like I will go down mmm and what do i do then and so I really what do they say I was told that if you're in a situation and the person is unarmed but you think your life is in danger you can shoot yep I agree 100% I was told that there like just make sure you know there were certain things they wanted me to check distance space could I get away could I avoid shooting that person you know all those things but if you're in a place where you think you're gonna go down because actually what happened a lot of people don't realize and I'm an adjunct professor I teach don't laugh I teach criminal justice and criminology and I have this discussion a lot with my students because they're very curious they won't understand how it works but the concern is not only that I'm gonna get hit and go my lights are out it's like I go down but then now my service weapon which I am responsible for someone else can take that yep and if they take that I am in so much trouble like there's so many consequences to that and if you look at the data in 88 percent of the situations where a police officer's gun was taken that gun was used against the police officer I've seen videos of that online yeah that makes sense I know I know of officers I've had conversations with them where they're in a position now where they're so hesitant I think they would be very hesitant to defend themself with lethal force in an environment where the person is unarmed because of the scrutiny they would get afterwards and the situations that they describe to me sound 100 Plake that's a hundred percent legitimate they should be able to do whatever they need to do to protect their life a threat to their life and I feel bad for him it's a rough environment right now for law enforcement for sure the body cams unfortunately they only want to put on the news you know the snippet of shooting but they should put up every single day as body cam footage of incidents going exactly the way that the general public would expect traffic stops hey how's it going just doing their job hey here's a here's a body cam footage and people look Oh who's gonna get shot Oh nobody it's just a normal interaction with civilian populace like they're supposed to do they're out there interfacing look look here's a good example of things going right that never makes the news it doesn't and you know I because I did the news quite a bit it doesn't keep people doesn't keep viewers on yeah people want to watch the bad stuff people want to see the drama and I think they change their perception though it does and I think what's odd is like the news has become almost like drama like you're watching drawing you're watching another reality TV shows TV show yeah I don't know if it's actually even the news anymore it's very highly editorialized yeah but I digress so you're in the Secret Service portion now 54 women started with you no no four women went yeah so how about in FLETC how many women were there in that class it was the same class with the same so we're the same group 54 oh you all went - we all go together okay together so we all go together I think I think everybody passed okay we all went through it and then because when you're in this when you're in the service they treat you more as an individual because they've really invested a lot of time in you and you're there with people actually think one of the guys in my class was a former SEAL probably I had a former Ranger in my class I mean I had I was in there I was like wow look at these amazing people and I'm like how did I end up in this that was quite likely from them like all NYPD me well they had like no idea really did like four or five months in the Academy yeah so once you pass then you go to the second phase which is Beltsville and then it's the same group but they really do invest time in you they do treat you as an individual but I don't want to say it wasn't harder I think NYPD was harder for me because I walked in clueless and I didn't know what to expect and then I I was much more aware of what would be expected of me when I went into the service I still worked out I still did everything even in training I picked the bigger guys because sometimes they'd want to pair me with someone small another woman and I really get annoyed because in the street she's with it's gonna be a big I'm gonna be fighting with let me fight let me roll with this person because this is who I need to be worried about and so sometimes you'd see the instructors kind of be unsure and it's like no I'm I'm not female special agent I'm just a special agent treating me the same way beat me up the same way because I'm gonna die out there if you don't you don't do that mmm if you cater to me you're you're handicapping me yeah you're not actually helping yeah and so we went through that training and I do believe it's changed quite a bit we had like an O course and all these different things and I all that stuff too but I put I put my soul into it I put everything I had into it and then so what does the journey look like after that so you make it through FLETC you make it through the secret service portion that Academy then you actually become a federal agent at the end of the secret service Academy you get offered your job or you guys paid on two Gs paces yes okay scale I think I was a GS I want to say a7 which is a government service pay scale which I know almost nothing about for people listening so go to Google if you want to know more about that the good thing about pay scales is that it just goes on time so nobody's arguing or bickering is like you start on the state this is a skill you're wrong you start on the state this is a skill you're on and as you grow in seniority the numbers go up maybe the same way that you could go hey have you been in two years and you're an e2 this is is an Excel spreadsheet problem it's XY exactly it's actually nice nobody really goes I don't think into the military for money assume that path as well so what's it look like when you start that journey so when you graduate everybody gets sent to a field office I usually they try to send you somewhere that you're not from but I'm from New York they sent me back to New York my understanding was highest I'm like why am I going back to New York where I was happy they're like oh nobody wants New York really no because if you're on this go7 pay scale I can live in Montana like a king yeah and in New York I can get like a little apartment the size of your bathroom a shoebox here and so the quality of life and a lot of people did not want New York and I also I hate to say it but we used to work a lot in New York obviously there's more crime there's a lot more things happening and so you're working a lot more cases also in New York you have the United Nations and so a lot of people don't realize that the u.s. Secret Service also protects foreign heads of state so when you have a foreign head of state coming to the United States they automatically get Secret Service protection because we don't we don't want anybody getting assassinated on US soil you don't want the Prime Minister of Israel or somebody coming over and then getting do they get a full detail or just I've probably protected I can't count but maybe a third of the world leaders just because they come to the US and a lot of them would come to wouldn't to New York because of the UN but they people don't realize it's not just the UN General Assembly that happens in September people coming to the UN all year round in a lot of these countries they have houses here one guy had apartments I remember what do we call him I I went to what country we used to call him the slumlord because he used to go collect rent on property a lot of foreign heads of states than their kids here to school yeah they come here one country one a head of state he came to the US for medical treatment he didn't want to get in his own country so he came to the US so it was a revolving door of protection protection and then while you're doing that then you would help and do supplemental protection for our protectees which was the president former presidents and their spouses so sometimes we would help well that's for life they get it for life it recently changed the right isn't Obama the last one he's gonna get for 10 years I don't know what they're doing with that I remember Clinton created a there was a law that Clinton passed or it was it would pass through his administration that everybody hee hee going backwards basically he would get it for life and anybody before and would get for life and then after him they would only get it for 10 years because there was a life - life expectancy issue where we had all these protectees living longer lives and we're trying to protect them all and so the thought process was does you know former President Ford who had protections is he still really need it this car don't really need it at this point well they can probably decrease the detail size I would imagine is there they do decrease it yeah but it's still costly oh for sure very costly you're talking about vehicles we're talking about travel you're talking about admin you're talking about even fortifying or security you know the security parameters around there I was in the Delta lounge in LA and Carter President Carter came in did he come over no I sat there and I watched The Secret Service agents like moving around I'm like wonder what's going on here I just sat there quietly I'm like okay everybody have a nice day it's like that movie was in guarding Tess yes nobody knew what was going on they get freaks people out it's funny I saw a car pulled up actually a motorcade pulled up by the plane and I looked out there I was like oh that's a little interesting people got out of there out of the vehicles and assumed a defensive posture I'm like oh I know what's going on I didn't know who was he popped out I was like oh that's cool yeah didn't know he was gonna be coming into the lounge comes into the lounge sat in the corner then they went and got him on a commercial flight but I bet they have to have people on the flight with him all that stuff and there's a cost that for sure all that yeah could you have shifts you also have advanced people the dance people that go out ahead of time as you know to check a place out before somebody's gonna go there whether it's domestic or overseas it's very costly but I think now I thought I heard that they changed that now everybody still gets it for life because I think they realized that it's something that they should have yeah so but you didn't start off in protection I'm curious about so you said you start off as an investigator so I work as investigator we have squads I started off in the financial fraud squad and so I started doing cases that were involved in the Treasury Department and all that and then I worked counterfeiting I wasn't that squad but you would sometimes do it then credit card fraud squad then we had um we also had electronic crime squad where we would look at people doing and we just do it was kind of newest still at the time with people committing crimes so the internet one of the big ones was pedophiles when they would try to lure connect with people online kids online befriend them and then try to get them to meet somewhere and so I was part of that he was one occasional they were gonna come whatever look like they were and I was very young back then they were gonna put me on a corner in the middle of Manhattan to meet with somebody that we were chatting with and so I would ID him in the minute ID'd him I'd be like yep this the guy take him down before far away they thought I'd look like a kid so I would work paedophilia fall under the Secret Service umbrella they'd have it looked into an electronic crime so we had your electronic crimes also fall under the Secret Service so there were times where we would keep work cases and we'd kind of connect with maybe the FBI or another agency and then we just say alright look we're both on this let's just team up and do it together yeah so we so a lot of any crime that was happening online or through the internet or in that way we would get involved and I think we were one of the first ones to create a task force for that we had a really sophisticated task force they were very good so you work in that capacity and then while I was doing that we had pot polygraphers there were maybe I don't know if I'm allowed to see how many but there's a very very small group of pellagra firs in the US Secret Service and they asked me do you there's an opening do you wanna one of the senior guys came up to me he's like you should put in for this he's like I'm leaving I'm going to the president's detail why don't you take my spot I was like no thank you I was like I don't want it because it was a really one it was a huge responsibility because you were the person they called when there's a case yeah and they can't solve it there's not enough proof and they need a confession or they need information and if you don't get that like you're it's it's part it's it's a huge it's a heavy because everyone's looking at you and if there's times where you can't get everybody to talk and people look at you is it the person is it you it was a huge responsibility then plus I remember thinking like who's gonna talk to me I'll say you need somebody big and bald and scary in that room is gonna scare the bejesus out of people not someone like myself and the pellagra at the time the senior guy he said I think you're looking at this wrong he's like I think people will be more inclined to speak to you because they're not gonna come in defensive the walls will be down and he's like and I really he's like I don't think you understand what it really means to interrogate someone and I put in for it I did not think I was gonna get it and I was selected out of a large group of people I was surprised I got it and then I was sent now to the Department of Defense it was called Dodd Pyatt at the time I know not now it has a different acronym but it was Department of Defense polygraph Institute so you go there and it's the who's who of interrogator so every agency sends their people there FBI DEA military and we all go there and it's it was probably one of the hardest schools I've ever been to probably yes because there's how long was it three months Wow oh it's a three month school so you learn everything about physiology and it was literally a physiology course a graduate course that you learned in a week I remember reading a text book cover-to-cover and I'm like they can't it can't be serious and they were they were happy to fill you out of that school so I went there and they teach you psychology they have you know professors coming in teaching you about medicine to like with people take some type of drug what it does to them the mindset of people it was more of a psychology of people and then they also teach you techniques of how to listen information how do you influence people how do you get people to talk to you because I'm a federal law enforcement agent I have to mirandize people this is at the time after mirandize I'm not there to browbeat people I have to be careful so it's like how do I get people to confess to a crime or give me information when there's no benefit to it you know sometimes it's like you talk to me and the potential of jail is like right here and how do you do that so it was a really intense school and I went through that that was three months and it was actually we trained at Fort Fort Jackson mm-hmm Fort Jackson on the army base we trained until we practice on recruits that's a [ __ ] up there were the recruits they were gonna send home there's a name for them do you know what they're what do they called Andy when you go into the military and then they realize that you're not fit for it for it and they let you go home oh there is a name for that but it's escaping me at the moment those were the ones that we practice on not the ones that stayed so did they have to volunteer for it or do they have a choice I don't I don't think they probably did either that's an interesting pool of people to practice on we did I mean it wasn't brutal or anything we just it was just really practicing on an a person and they understood that it was for a practice they understood that we were students trying to learn this craft yeah but it was the only way that they could just teach us how to do it before you go to the real thing then after you graduate even though you go out there at least my agency did not allow me to do polygraphs right away I think I had to do maybe about 35 or 40 with with a senior person yeah and then that person has to sign off on signing off on every time I did a test and especially if they were recorded so they would listen and then so I began doing the polygraphs now for applicants those people who wanted to work for us they had to take a poly and pass it and then I started doing polygraphs related to our jurisdiction the different cases that we would work and then we would sometimes be lent out to police departments who did not maybe have the resources to investigate a case or needed help and we would go out and do cases for them so if I had did a lot of I did quite a few child abuse cases where you have children who were a broken arm or fractured skull and they'd say we think it's the dad we think it's the mom we think it's the nanny we have no proof can you help us and I would go in and I would usually try to interview first the primary suspect the person we suspected and I'd go in and I talked to that person and my goal was to either clear them because sometimes people are they're not the person to the wrong person or get a confession and so I traveled the country unknown and that wasn't the only one other agents did as well when we would do crimes that were not under jurisdiction but violent crimes may be a murder or missing kid or anything like anything but we could help police departments because not everybody's the NYPD NYPD has 40,000 police officers they have the resources but half of the police departments in the United States have they're about 10 officers or less so to those departments that need they need help they don't have the training they don't have the resource so we'd go in and try to help them out do people have to agree to sit with you take that polygraph - absolutely had they have to consent it's like an inn or any interview nobody has to talk to you so I would have Mirandized I would mirandize everybody because one of my concerns was if this person starts saying something to me I don't wanna be like well let's stop right there I'm gonna mirandize you yeah you get it I would hold on with the confession yes tell me more in a minute so what we would do is what they taught us to do is no matter who you interview even if it was an applicant everybody got Mirandized and everybody was like hey this is just what we do which I appreciate it because it was just policy didn't matter who we talk to you getting Mirandized and then by that point its kind of put to the side it's forgotten they know their their their rights but then also there were little things you had to do in the room so I had to make sure that like my chair didn't block the entrance of the door I would be very clear and say hey here's the door I'd opened the door it's unlocked you are free to leave at any time and I think the more I would say that to people the more inclined they were to actually stay in the room and its kind of autonomy it's that it's an actually an influence strategy but when people feel like they have a choice they feel like they have more control so they're more inclined to go along with something agree with you even if they know they're guilty they would still sit there and try to go through the polygraph what I actually what I found and I don't know if there's data on this but I found that guilty people tended to be the people that wanted to stay and I noticed that those that I thought that were innocent would get up and leave and I think the rationale behind and this is just my belief was that guilty people really want to convince you hey I didn't do it it's like think about like a car salesman trying to sell you a lemon he works really really really hard to convince you know this is a great car where if it was just a great car he'd be like this is a great car it was like Maserati believes the Maserati yeah stickers on the window you want it great and so I really think that it was the same way in that room so guilty people would really work hard because they want you to go away because if they get up and leave they're gonna be like well they're still looking at me so they want to convince you I didn't do it and I would find that guilty people would tend to stay in the room I mean there were a few people I knew were guilty that would leave but a lot of them would want to stay they want to convince you hey I didn't do this was it the machine that would give them a way more where their behavior so it's the behavior the polygraph itself it's it's actually right now it's a laptop it's a software system and it's not allowed in court is it no why is that because it's a it can be subjective because you know why because if I suck I'm not good oh is the administrator administrator like I can ask you a question and then I'm just gonna bang the bang the table or nudge the table as I'm asking you the question you know what you're gonna do you're gonna spike or I could you know or I can inflict my voice a certain way you can elicit a response I can yes you can if you're unethical you can try you can make somebody fail and so that you really have to be very very careful so really the polygraph was just a tool because as many people as I've interviewed there are some people I would talk to and unlike I have no clue mmm this person's I don't know I don't know if they're telling me the truth and I don't know if they're a liar so I I'm when people say oh I know I can spot a liar you can't it's there's some people they're just good so the the polygraph itself was a tool for you to see the physiological responses going on in that body and so but you would spend the first part of the polygraph you would spend time talking to people and sometimes their behaviors or their language their verbal language or paralinguistics were so powerful that I remember thinking I don't need to polygraph them I've already got them and I think I can just get them to tell me so a lot of times we'd call that a pretest confession where you talk to someone and you're connecting you've got great rapport and then they're opening up and they just decide to confess yeah that's a shitty criminal I am NOT a criminal but I think that's a shitty criminal I think you know it's interesting because if I look back at those people who would confess it was easier to get somebody to confess to a violent crime than it was to a financial crime so I'm gonna put that out there and you tell me why you think that is easier to confess to a violent crime than a financial crime I would say because they are probably proud of their machismo when it comes to the violent crime if it's a guy like they're less concerned with like yeah I did it I was standing up for myself whereas a financial crime I don't know it seems dirtier it's interesting everybody has such a unique perspective most people when they commit some type of violent crime whether it's an assault or a robbery or anything like that there's more guilt attached to it because you're physically because you're physically hurting somebody you're physically doing something to someone financial crime I consider my pajamas in Russia and like steal money out of your account or from my house oh you're detached from the actual physical pain that you're because you're definitely if you screw somebody financially there there's pain associated with that too but you're gonna you're not fee you don't feel like you directly did something to them so sometimes it would be harder to get somebody confessed to like $50 worth of fraud then it would be Tusa to a crime a violent crime it's interesting I wouldn't thought about it that was the guilt was the driving factor and the connectedness to the impact that it had look it depends on the person some people you would get they don't care most people feel bad like I think as people we have I can't say this in my experience I've never interviewed someone where I said this person is 100% evil there'd be elements of both good and bad in people and sometimes I think the bad element would outweigh the good element and some people and so in the interview room my goal was to chase the good I'd call it chasing the good because if I talked to you and treated you like garbage I'm gonna get garbage and they're gonna shut down we're gonna shut down but if I try to find that part of you that human element that good part of you and pull it out the Andy I know you're nice guy I know you're an honest person I know you want to do the right thing here and when you take that approach some people it works with some people it connects with you connect with them and in truth I wouldn't work on me we'll have a polygraph set up right after sended I've taken one before then your questions I was like huh I would do it because you know there's two different types there's like the security clearance of polygraph and then there's a lifestyle polygraph I never got to the point where you have to take the lifestyle polygraph which I also wouldn't care I mean I'm a relatively open book but yeah it's it trips some people out for sure what's the craziest polygraph interview you ever gave what's one that sticks out in the most it's not mine there are other ones that I'd heard of I'll share it it's like pretty crass but yeah tell me more we would people would confess to bestiality I never had it because I'm not popular in the East Coast but I would hear other calligraphers in the Midwest and different parts of the countries there's got to be the Midwest but so I remember the first time I I heard about it I didn't know what it meant I was like what's a beastie oh my god so do you want to explain to your listeners know they can google that if they want to but you might show up on a list somewhere so just use with caution those would be the animals special relationships with animals yeah special friends emphasis on the special I never I truth I've never gotten one yeah that's good I'm glad that you didn't I would hope that there are very few people like that actually maybe always in good at my job and trying to think back now maybe should have pushed on that question of it I don't think you should have I think you took the appropriate tact so when did you shift from investigative to protection a because I'm assuming while you were doing investigations you still to stay current and the protective detail don't do all that stuff so I'm doing all of these things now but one of the myths or a lot of people think that when you join the US Secret Service you automatically go to to the president's detail yes you do not direct pipeline from graduation to the [Laughter] you do not and not everybody gets it there's a selection process so you think of it and I know when the seals there's different divisions and if you want to go to certain division and you go through additional screening and then if you make it and if you're selected then you go so the president's detail a current president he has to be in office that's that process is like that so phase one of your career is kind of what we just discussed working cases and in my situation I just happened to become a polygrapher which is not the typical thing other agents did maybe less than 1% of us did that but then phase 2 is they come to you to say listen now you have to do a full time protection assignment or face to assignment so it can be the president it can be the vice president or it can be a former president like the ones we discussed where maybe it's not as intense and you probably have a way better quality of life when you do those but probably way more scheduled yes less less pressure on the schedule too less intense and you probably have more of a life it's more of your life and then there's also other divisions where you can do intelligence so we have different branches there were so I was at the point where they were like you have to leave in New York and so me being new to New York I'm like I don't want to leave New York this is a great place why would I go anywhere else I was like well if you're gonna make me leave I'll go to DC and I'll try out for the president's detail so just like everybody else I put my name in and then eventually you're called and this is it took about seven or eight years for me to get this to this point just to give you an idea of how long you have to wait to go so you became a federal agent pre 9/11 I did you were in New York then I'm assuming on 9/11 our offices were in seven World Trade Center where were you that day I was in the office I went in early I was working on a case I was chasing I was trying to find this Frenchman who was committing fraud and I believed he was in Canada and goddamn French and I went in early and I was in the office and I heard the first plane so before I answer because I think I know where you're going with this when you you've obviously been in Scituate and do you ever struggle talking about them sometimes because you feel like maybe you're doing an injustice by speaking about it or elevating yourself or I'm not sure if I'm treating it right but do you ever feel I don't I try and I have always tried to be just as objective and honest as I can be and that includes my own behavior in those situations I I probably err on the side when I talk about things in my past of telling people how I screwed up more than when I was successful because I prefer to leave it to my peers and the people that I was there with to talk about any successes I may have had so it's easier for me in that respect to just try to be blanket honest with it like hey this is what I experienced somebody's experience might have been different this is what I saw but I've been able to navigate that well by just having that as the baseline with which I operate from so yeah full disclosure it's always been hard for me to discuss that day because I guess I always felt that all these people died and I you know I didn't I survived and I always really had a struggle I always felt internally I shouldn't discuss it as much and it was hard for me I wrote it about it in the book and it's really been you have this part of you it's like should I even be talking about this is it wrong for me to share my story so it just curious to see like how you perceive something like that well I didn't have any direct I mean you have a self deep ties to New York you know so I think the that day outside of your federal job probably would have had a pretty big impact I had no direct connection to that I joined pre 9/11 I did I joined in 96 you're like a baby when you join well they don't actually take babies I was 18 so yes I was still a baby emotionally I was probably nine at the time I joined the military when they gave me my first machine-gun it's not a good call right now I'm currently sitting in like 18 emotionally 42 so I mean I watched I turned the TV on about 10 seconds before the second plane went in live I had no idea was going I literally just woke up turn the TV on so 9/11 for me was more of a shift in my life because it was a drastic shift in my occupation but I didn't you know there was no issues with talking about it or what I would describe a lot of people say his survival survivor's guilt because AI wasn't there and B I had no direct attachment to it there are issues from your tactical stuff when you're I suppose you say there are do ya there's plenty of situations where I fell completely short of the standard that I set for myself and there are days where I feel like I met the standard and there were most of the days in my military career were awesome I mean the people I worked with were great enlarged you know every every weed lawn has weeds to include the single cast so most people I worked with were great and I try to minimize with time with the people I didn't want to work with most the time we had overwhelming tactical success on the battlefield because we had the tactical and technological advantage which is awesome and it felt great to go over there and feel like you're making the difference and then there's some times where as a complete nutter shitshow and you're good friends died and things that were outside of your control occurred and you know you struggle with it and you know how a copter would go down I wasn't on that helicopter or somebody would get blown up or shot and well I went through that door too why didn't that happen to me and I don't I guess for me it's maybe cathartic to talk about it and I did but again I just try to go with just just full honesty like hey this is what happened this is what I was trying to do this is what I was actually able to do and I'll just stand in judgment of my peers I hear that so like so for us on that day it was so it's it's such a difficult thing to talk about but because it's you Andy um we had gone into work and we were in seven World Trade Center and I was trying to work on this case and we're sitting there I was with the LEAs I don't want to say with customs at the time and we hear the sound outside and I honestly didn't realize it was a plane I just heard like this loud sound how close was where you - which tower was hit first was it one world trade sign I should know this I want to say I always mix the towers up I don't remember which one offhand was hit first it was it was one closest to my building okay it was the one I want to say it's the North Tower the one that was closest north no I don't want to say cuz I can't remember at the moment so we were so the way it's set up World Trade Center it was Tower 1 Tower 2 and then around the towers at the base there was it was World Trade Center 4 5 6 these lower buildings and then right adjacent to that they built 7 World Trade Center which was about 47 stories I'm talking a couple blocks no it's not a couple blocks it's like across the street there were next to each other so everything's in the same vicinity literally to get to the tower cuz we are parking garage was actually underneath the towers so I'd go in I'd park under the towers the two big towers and then just cross there was a walkway I just crossed the walkway and now I'm in 7 World Trade Center so we are there you hear the loud sound sound didn't even occur to me that was an explosion everybody goes to the windows on some people still aren't there because we're still early and I look out and I see this big fire this blazing fire coming from the top of the tower the first time I that had been hit it was up top high I remember thinking it was a very benign thought I remember thinking oh I I think it's an electrical fire it didn't even nobody none of us had any idea that a plane or anything zero we're completely clueless and then on the PA system they say everybody it comes on and says everybody evacuate everybody evacuate so not knowing what's going on I remember I run over to run up to my desk and I grab my my gun in my badge cuz I was just like I have to have these I didn't know what was going on we evacuate we go down and then as we go down to the lobby you just it was like floor-to-ceiling glass the lobby of the 7 World Trade and you just saw chunks of Steel coming down and people couldn't exit so then the security the building security were pushing people out through the side mm-hmm and they're just yelling - everybody everybody evacuate and I remember pausing and I think at the time I was about myself I'm thinking I'm like wow I'm not a ting like we don't evacuate I'm not supposed to evacuate and I started looking around for my colleagues and I found a small group of colleagues maybe about six of us of them and I said what do we do and they're like let's go get our medical kits we had these medical kits that were called fat kids mmm so we'd go up these things were huge and heavy they had everything in there so we go up and this we went to the area where we stored our weapons and our kits they were all in the same area we obviously didn't grab weapons because we didn't really think we needed them we didn't we still didn't know what was going on we grabbed the medical kits and we go down and then out through the side of seven world trait to go towards the tower that had been hit to try to get in to help the injured people because we knew people were going to be injured and wounded and as literally as we're walking toward the tower to go into it then I just heard a really loud sound it sounded like an engine revving and it was coming from above I didn't see it and one of the agents that was with me he grabbed my arm and he yanked me and he just I didn't really understand what was happening he starts pulling me and he starts pulling me back in the direction of where we came and then I just see everybody running and then I hear the sound of the plane I'm still I don't know it's a plane I don't understand it's a plane I just hear the sound I'm thinking is that a missile is it what is this and we run and then just as we're running sure enough just at that time the tower the plane hits the other tower and all the debris comes shooting out and a shooting out in our direction and so it's just literally Andy it's just raining chunks of building steel and fireball it was it was there are no words to describe it they're their stuff they show on air they don't show it just doesn't there's no justice to what it really was yeah so we start just run and I remember the agent actually landed on top of me slam me up against the concrete wall there was a wall there and he slammed me I mean he just he shielded me he put his body over mine just a friend a colleague and just instinctually he tried to protect me and we sat there and we waited for the rain of stuff to stop and I remember just looking around just seeing people just getting smacked with chunks of Steel yeah and you either there Ethan you were gone it was like it was a very surreal thing to experience so when that happened it occurred to us all right this is we still didn't know it was a plane by the way no clue we realize this is something else this is an attack a terrorist attack some type of attack and so are now the way we were going in is now blocked because now the second plane came and put all that debris and fire in our path so we had to go around a different way and then actually as we went around that way some NYPD cops stopped us and they're like hey we need your help because they saw a badge and guns cuz we we weren't covered at the time we have a guy we think like the hottest thing he's like we think he's he's saying some weird stuff we don't know what to do and so we walk over and it's like raining debris and there's this guy standing there with a hoodie and he's looking up and I'm like what are you doing and he's where nobody is and he's like I think they missed their mark I was like what he's like they missed the mark and I'm like well who missed the mark he's like the plains they hit the wrong spot so we hear this and we're thinking what the so I remember we grab him we're like hey why don't you just come over here let's talk where it's not raining debris and we're talking to him and he starts saying these things and we didn't know what to do when the cops were like I'm like we can't let this guy go we don't know what this is so we put handcuffs on him right away and we search him and then when I searched him I found some paperwork that had just come from court he some parole hearing and I was talking to him and turns out he happened to be Greek I'm like are you Greek and I start talking to him in Greek and then I realized and talking time I'm like I think this guy has mental health issues I'm like don't let him go though we don't know what this is so we gave him to the cops they had their car they're like take him make sure he gets interviewed we don't know what this is just I don't think it has anything but just take him and I remember the cops looking at me and I was just my another partner of mine at the time that the same agent has shielded me they were like aren't you gonna come and then we my partner I looked at each other as a key no we're gonna stay and I remember the cops left and they hugged they hugged us before they left so then we go we link up with some other agents I found a small group of agents and the boss and the boss stops us all he's like listen he's like I'm going in he's like whoever wants to come with me can come and whoever wants the go you can go no one's gonna judge you this is obviously like unlike anything we've ever seen and I didn't look I just step forward and as we get ready to go like over in the distance I hear somebody scream and then we look up and we're like now we're like on the Westside Highway which is the street that's next to the towers and we look up and there's somebody jumping and then another person and then another person and and II it was just raining people there were write news they were just not only now are you worried about the debris coming down because we're like trying to shift to make sure nothing falls on the sets of debris or metal now we're running so we don't have a human being following us the people jumping from above the impact point they want to do it with the fire yeah there were some there were jumping from there was the fire so they obviously couldn't get out they were trapped and I remember you could see them like hanging out yeah the holes they showed that very briefly on the news they show it anymore yeah it was I don't know how many people jumped out I felt and I'm probably wrong but it felt like hundreds when I say it was it wasn't one or two or three people were jumping it was raining people and so now this is happening and we're trying to get into the tower we can't get into the tower so by the Westside Highway there was already people coming out so we just set up a triage and we just started helping people and giving oxygen doing different things and just and then ambulance trucks were pulling up and so the people that we thought needed help we throw them into the truck some people were just in shock like they were they were okay they were covered in stuff but you could tell they were just more like it was they couldn't think and we would just be like go to the water just walk that way so they'd go towards the water and as that is happening I remember at one point I was doing something I was trying to get the oxygen tank to work to help this woman and I hear quiet like just quiet and I look up and there's no one there nobody all my colleagues are gone I'm like what though would everyone go and then I hear the sound of like it's so hard to explain it's just like the style the sound of bending steel if you've ever been in a boat at the bottom of the boat when you hear the the noise the metal made at the hull of a ship it was that sound but times I don't know 100 and I hear the sound and I'm thinking oh the roof must be sliding off because I remember the first plane hit the top of the tower and I'm thinking maybe that's given way I was like and I knew because of how close I was to the tower I was like I can't outrun this this thing's gonna fall it's gonna take like seven city blocks with it so I was like I have to hunker down so I looked around and I was outdoors I was exposed I couldn't even have time to run into any place so there was a corner of the building that I found like a brick corner made like this perpendicular angle and I remember thinking like I'll sit here and maybe when the tower collapse the stuff comes it'll shoot over my head maybe it'll shield me but when they say time slows down this is the only time in my career that this has happened I've been in tactical situations or different things nothing very extreme nothing like what you you've encountered but this is the only time in my life weren't like that that [ __ ] is real when they say time slows down I was like what do I need water my my brain just went into automatic mode I need water why do I need water I get buried I need water to drink I grabbed water then there was a metal table and I was like look if steel falls on me there's nothing that that can do but glass can kill a lot of people don't realize that glass is just as dangerous especially at high velocity yes so I was like what can I use to shield myself so at that area because of the way the area was designed they had a lot of outdoor tables and patios where people would eat those those big heavy metal tables that people eat at outside a restaurant I saw one that thing was it must have made twice mice twice my weight I remember grabbing it in my journal and just kicking in ih I dragged the thing I remember scraping the concrete with it and I shoved it into the corner and I'm like alright if the tower doesn't kill me whatever is coming doesn't kill me I didn't know the towers coming down I just I really thought it was just the top part of it or a portion of it I was like so if that doesn't crush me at least I've got this to shield me from glass I've got water I'll figure it out and I got into that corner and I made myself I'm small to begin with I remember I made myself so small [Laughter] I'm like I remember put my knees into my chest I was like do I have all my toes in anywhere by yourself there was nobody else there was myself I remember thinking I couldn't one of these guys tap me on the shoulder and be like hey if so they just they had bolted everybody bolted I think it just happened so fast that everybody just went into an automatic mode and nobody thought to say hey to tap me on the shoulder to be like hey you might want to come with us I just I just ended up being by myself and I just sat there and I waited and it started to come down and it was like sitting in the middle of an earthquake or an inside a volcano it was it was unlike anything I ever felt before and I remember sitting there and as it started to happen something hit me I was like I was like oh my god I'm I'm gonna die I was like this isn't what I thought and I had that that moment I was like I'm really gonna die and so I was like all right well I don't have a choice whether I live or die it's not my choice I'm gonna if I die it's out of my hands but I can choose how I'm gonna die and and I was like I'm not gonna die afraid I remember sitting there and you know I'm not an overly religious person I don't want to church every Sunday but in that moment I was like I'm gonna pray I started praying out loud and I asked God to forgive me I was like you know god I was like I hope I've been a decent enough person and please forgive me and don't let me be alone when this happens and it's interesting because I wasn't afraid of dying I was sad because I was dying alone it's just it's such a weird thing like because when you do these jobs when you put in you to do something like this you go in with the understanding I could die doing this job but this was something different and although I had not been prepared to die like this you know I was thought to be a bullet in the head or something I'm like ah I'm good but I didn't expect this and I prayed and I just let it come and I remember it just turned tonight and this wave of heat and darkness just came in and now you're just watching it come and I was like nope I'm not gonna die afraid I'm gonna keep my eyes open I kept my eyes open I was like if I want to know how I died I want to see it happen and just this as I guess as the tower came down blast came and just even though I was already in corner just slam me back into the the brick wall and then it just it just started coming down and I thought for sure I'm like I'm done and I waited and it just kept coming down coming down and all the stuff was coming down and I felt like an eternity and then finally all of a sudden everything just goes quiet just like definitely like silent and I sat there for a bit and I was like I think I'm dead because I couldn't see anything now remember taking my hand and putting it up in front of my face and I was trying to look at my hand it was like only two inches from my face I couldn't even see my hand and I was like I I don't know I don't know what this is and then I realized I started burning because I kept my in trying to be courageous I ended up sabotaging myself because all the debris and all that ash came into my eyes and was burning and I'm thinking I'm like man I'm being brave and probably not the wisest thing to do so my eyes started burning cuz all that stuff that fell on us it is my skin was ok but it was just really the offices of the body yeah and I sat there for a bit because I was afraid I had been buried alive and I was like I might be buried that's why I can't see anything and I waited no wait and I it might have been a good solid five minutes where then I put my hand out and I just started to slowly crawl out and then I felt a wall and again still II can't see anything and then eventually I saw like this light in the distance is dim light and so I just started crawling over to it and I stood there and then I heard a colleague call me I don't know how he found me and he's like is that you F and I'm like yes it's me and he's like I was like I can't see and he's they just stay where you are he's like I'll come grab you and he came and got me and as the dust started to clear a little bit I mean you looked around and it was just debris everywhere I mean firemen bleeding mm-hmm and then occurred to us were like oh my holy [ __ ] there's another Tower if this thing came down the other ones gonna come down and I still think I did I still did not know the tower came down I we had I didn't understand what was happening it was after this was all over that there were like a a plane hit another plane hit then the tower fell and the other tower fell no no clue and so after that we they took me into a lobby there was a super there and he cleaned my face because I was really burning and he cleaned my eyes and then we just start evacuating people because all these the thing with the towers they were so huge that when they collapsed when they spilled over the the chunks of debris actually scraped adjacent buildings and some of the buildings actually had to take them down after the whole incident happened because they were so structurally damaged because the towers fell on them so my building building seven that building collapsed I think our building collapsed at 5:00 p.m. that day but it collapsed because when the tower fell it fell on top of it our building caught fire it burned until it went down and so even after the first tower came down we kind of regrouped and we started pushing people out because we're like you know what if this one fell the other one's gonna fall and as we started to push people out the second one started to fall too we were just pulling people dragging people lifting people I remember we carried this one kid who I don't know if he was handicapped accan talk somebody was screaming help he can't move and we just picked him up and threw him into an ambulance and it was it was insanity that day and then I remember that whole thing happened and and then all of a sudden we see so after the second one Falls we all the fire trucks all the first responders everybody starts bolting and I'm on the Westside Highway still by Ground Zero in the firemen are on top of their Struck's everybody run everybody get out of here I don't think what what what else could happen gas leak so everybody yes everybody thought that when the towers collapsed I guess there was a gas gas smell and so all the fire trucks everybody's blazing blazing down the highway and I'm on foot with my colleagues we start running we just start running and we just ran as far as we could because we thought we thought downtown Manhattan was gonna going to explode and so it was it was crazy I can't believe sometimes it's like it's 18 years ago but we you know you do you did the best you could I mean I did the best I could and it there's there's moments where I think back maybe could have done this better or done that better gone in here and it just makes you sad because you just see this massive loss of life and you just it was really hard to watch you know all those people die and I mean you come from a background and you're thinking you're I'm worthless I can't do anything I would say helpless not worthless helpless helpless you felt you know what the to be fair I feel like that I felt like I what can I do and that you have got your gun on you like what's this gonna do yeah bags like what there's nothing nothing at that point no no so that was you know a really life-changing experience and I think sometimes we get caught up in life and whenever I feel myself kind of shift I'm like ah remember that day life's not so bad or things are it kind of brings you brings you back sadly though there's a lot of folks still dying from the aftermath of 9/11 there's a program it's called a World Trade Center health monitoring program which I'm part of every year I go we all go most of us go that we're there they check us to make sure that we're okay because there's a lot of people that were there that that worked there or helped there and they suffered a lot of illnesses and there's a lot of cancers yeah the carcinogens coming up so you know it is what it is that story kind of hard thing yeah it was an interesting day for sure I wish our country would go back to how they behaved in the few weeks after that oh they loved us after that I was part of I would go in and help with the cleanup effort and that part and we would drive down the West Side Highway there were people lined up all over the highway people from New York City holding up their signs we love you we love you law enforcement because only law enforcement first responders were allowed and then the military came the National Guard and all that and they were just in people came from all over the world to help I remember there was a where our command post we had a command post set up the Secret Service by Greenwich Avenue and one day one of the days this this big tractor trailer shows up and they're hauling all this stuff and it was like New Orleans and some restaurant from New Orleans these people come out to like hi we're from New Orleans we came up here we're gonna cook for you and they just started pulling out these big tubs of gumbo and cooking gumbo in the middle of like what's go mo this stuff is great you know I remember McDonald's - they had there was a McDonald's place then they had a little cart and you'd be fifteen three different things and there was a garnet McDonald's I'll work on he come up he's in the back he'd have this towing like you think you want chicken McNuggets want Big Mac you want filet-o-fish what do you want and they just don't eat the fillet of fish I don't like fish my house it I think it's gross its disgusting I'm pretty sure it's not fish but I think grass I found that people even beyond their appreciation for law enforcement they were the most compassionate I've ever seen strangers be towards each other for a few weeks after that like just everybody calmed the [ __ ] down and now that's gone I wish she would go back I think it's gone because people don't like for example so I told you I teach it's a natural professor my students they weren't even some of my students Wow yeah and so I don't think that they for them it's something that happened in history like oh this happened but it's it happened way over there and I think that's where the disconnect is yeah I don't know I think that you have to have something thrown in your face like that to recalibrate the context with who you are in your life and your station and society I think sometimes maybe you know how some countries make people like everybody has to go into the military mandatory service I really feel that's something like that we help people or help this country just serving your country just so you can understand what it means that what you're doing and contributing and then afterward have your opinion it would enhance their perspective for sure and give them a greater context of where they sit and where this country sits in a world stage for sure I don't think it even has to be I've talked about it before if it was if it was mandatory service military cool but also maybe the Red Cross is your thing or Doctors Without Borders or something just some service outside of yourself two years I think would be amazing and if they could do it outside of the US I think that would be even more impactful right but even inside of the u.s. like just serve something other than yourself for two years I really think it would shift perspective and that shift in perspective would change the interactions with people have I think it would do a lot to enhance our society as a country for sure I really think that like this my parents are immigrants and I'm their Greek I was born here the opportunities I've had in this country and I love where my parents came from I love Greece too I would have never ever ever had those opportunities there this country to be born here to grow up here I am so blessed like this there is nothing and I don't there beautiful countries in the world but there is nothing like the United States like oh really I it just you can be you can be no one have no money no nothing and come here and work bust your butt and you can be something there's other places in the world you cannot do that agreed yeah and it's tough to explain that to people if they don't go and take the time to or have the opportunity to go see those things good opportunity or bad however you look at it how long have we been talking 1 hour and 37 minutes right done I want to know about the presidential protective detail I get questions okay okay well your listeners stay on this long I don't know what's up with them okay probably I don't know I mean it depends on whether or not they connect with what we're talking about I mean I don't know how many people get to talk with Secret Service agent former former you two sometimes it's like yes it's what I did well but look like it's not who I am but it's a part of who you will always be whether you like it or not people will associate that title with you for the rest of your life and I struggle with that one too because I definitely don't want to be key Holden to just being that person I have no problem with it springboarding me into whatever might be next but I just don't want that acronym to follow me because it's not as cool as Secret Service we just have a cooler hands kudos to whoever came up with that like I got it it's gonna be a public organization called The Secret Service it's true is true just when you say to people like wow but then five minutes later they like call FBI right oh she's CIA so you put in post 9-11 now we're years past now yeah so you put in for the presidential detail yes I put in I throw my name in the Hat I have to go through a another physical training exam in my office which is New York I passed that they test me and then they send me to Washington DC when you go to Washington DC now you have to go through lekha I don't know what it's called it's just it's not another Academy but it's just another selection process like what we discuss yeah probably just additional training and refinement exactly what standards that you have to meet I'm assuming you have to meet those standards because there are people that do not meet them and if you do not meet them then you cannot go to the president's detail like think of the president's detail like that's the peak and it's just and when you say that does that mean you're working in the White House does that mean you're working directly with and around the president I mean is or how broad is that term when people say the president's detail so the term PPD which is presidential protective division hopefully is that correctly yep I have no idea you know it is like when you learn acronyms then you just stop saying the full word yeah or didn't so you might my butcher it but PPD when you go to PPD that means you live eat and breathe the president president's detail so you everything I did before is gone and now you are 24 hours in service of the president so you're straight protective the investigations have fallen it's all gone okay so now I move I fizz I physically moved to Washington DC I go through the training I pass I go through a process where I'm helping another division for a little bit and then actually before I went to the president's detail I ended up having Barbara Pierce push which is the daughter of President George Bush one of the twins they actually gave me her for awhile I was her assistant detail leader which means I was in charge of her protection for a bit I had supervisors above me but I had that assignment which was awesome by the way it was it was different because she was young and we were not too many years apart and so she just was a much more interesting to be around and do protection with and she's just a great protectee but then after that I ended up going to shifting into PPD first I started doing the perimeter security around the white house whereas a lot of people don't know but people come they monitor they leave stuff behind they want to see how law enforcement is going to react whether it's something real or a package that's just left to just arise suspicion so how often does that happen it happens often so I figured I wouldn't been surprised if you said every day it might be every day it happens I think some people may forget something I do think there's a group of people who leave stuff and then go back and watch to see how we respond yep which is smart they want to see what do we do what do we shut down who responds how long does it take what mechanism you know we try to understand your playbook yes exactly that legit I know does it happen happen and so I started off in that division and then I went to the first lady so I was with mrs. Obama and at that point there's two functions there's and I can I can talk about this because I service located in my book sorry should talk about it here so we have two two sections it's called the shift and it's called the advance the shift is what you see that's with the protectee so when you see the president come off the plane the agents with them they're called the shift and literally urine I don't want to use this term it's not the appropriate term but you're in the bodyguard mode if it's a say you're with him and you're there to shield protect and we move and there's a choreography to the way we move like everything is perfectly designed for a specific function that's the shift then there's the advance and that's the portion of the agents actually go overseas to prepare for the arrival of someone so for example when I was on the first lady's detail mrs. Obama went to Africa and I was sent to Botswana for a month and I was there and I work with the State Department and the government and the South Africa African government working out the logistics guns what do we bring cars all that stuff hotels logistics it was just it was intense that's the advance but when you're on the pre when you're on PPD you do both we just swap when you know one week or shift next week you're like hey you're in advance which is nice because it changes it changes it up but the thing is like your life is not your own you live and eat breathe that job and I think there's a lot of sacrifices that people make a lot of marriages that don't succeed I think a lot of spouses that come with their you're gonna leave their loved ones and just kind of like I never see you what does the day look like like say you're on shift at a broad perspective what's your wake up and go to bed time and everything in between so ship work sucks let's just put it out there it sucked because we had hopefully one day they'll change it but the way our shift worked is you had we had day shift afternoon shift night shift and then training or advance or travel so which meant for all those years you're on the detail it could be five years you work day shift which means 5:00 a.m. I'm on post and I'm done around 1:00 or 2:00 and I do two weeks of that then the next two weeks it's afternoon shift 1 p.m. to like 9 p.m. whatever it was and then 2 weeks of 9 p.m. to 6 a.m. let's go destroy your circadian rhythm and everything inside of your body I had wrinkles on my face I look like I was 90 it was well it was it was it was five years of that two weeks days to weeks afternoons two weeks shift two weeks travel so you stayed on PPD for five years I'm wondering if it was a full five it might have been a little less than it was substantial amount of time that way you're doing this you're doing this for years and shift work is brutal so when you do shift work you can show up at the white house if they're at the white house if they're home but if they're traveling then you're traveling with them or your leapfrogging so I remember once I worked the midnight shift at the White House but that morning the president was gonna leave to go to San Francisco so as soon as I was done with my shift I hopped on I went straight to the airport I got a red eye caught a red-eye was my post all my gear I get on the plane I fly to San Francisco to get there before he gets there we had maybe like a couple hours sleep they gave us maybe three hours sleep and then as soon as he landed I had to be ready to receive him with my shift group at the hotel then he comes to the hotel in the NAM work that shift so shift work is supposed to be eight hours but sometimes it can be 16 hours this stays you're standing in front of a door or you're in the Whittle middle of Wyoming and with snow and you're 12 hour shifts I think that the shift work and then just that was hard just standing there because you're supposed to stand and look and I'm supposed to be on your phone you're not supposed to be you're supposed to be out there looking for somebody the threat yeah and it's it's you have to be in this constant state of alertness it's very hard to just be there and be quiet to grind chips away at you like percentage-point at a time we went through additional training for the hell that we call it PSD personal security detail stuff oh yeah you guys so we would do that like we I've done advance work when you know generals would go overseas I did some stuff in the United Kingdom even some stuff in the US and I hated that job I hated the reactive nature of it like I'm here everybody can see me I can't do anything until you do something please don't do something and just like hah but it just grinds away at you like the same thing stand in front of this door for even two hours like just if people won't understand how hard it is literally just go stand in from a door for two hours don't take your phone and be alert and try to observe all the behavior of people that you see past that door deciding whether or not they're a threat and then multiply that by five and that's your average workday and you're gonna probably want to brush your teeth with a pistol the next morning it's rough I hated it look the job is great but that part of it I know in the movies that looks fantastic and I think sometimes people don't realize that sometimes in the movie though there's a guy standing out there watching a dumpster or a garbage can and I'm assuming that's real I mean agents stand here and make sure nobody comes to this door for 16 hours or the HVAC system they'll put you on a rooftop because we want to protect the air coming into the building so somebody can come and just drop something into an HVAC system in the building and now the whole building systems corrupt on top of a building in the skyscraper somewhere you're freezing and standing there just to make sure nobody dropped something yeah there's a lot that goes into it that is invisible for sure a lot of people don't realize look most of security and most of protection it's all the stuff you do in advance it's everything you do in advance and then look that layer that shift layer that's there that when it's like when things get through the penetrate through the layers which they shouldn't yeah because if you do your layers correctly which it's multiple layers of security that that layer is there to be that final thing but with presidents one of the tricky things that exists is that they have to be connected with the public and that's where it gets difficult that's where shiftwork can get difficult because they they're shaking hands they're going to these events where there's thousands of fine lines and people lose their minds I mean there was people would hug the president and it wasn't just Obama any president they'd hug him and then they they wouldn't let go so we have this maneuver where if they hug someone you take like the middle finger and you bend it back and say you can help them release the hug I'm hoping I didn't break too many fingers out there but you'd see that death grip go on it's like you have to let him go he has to keep moving yeah and so there was maneuvers that would they teach us to do on people's hands or arms or neck just to get them to kind of release the person so they could move on I don't think they've ever showed somebody releasing the hug with the middle finger which is good because the agent is probably behind the president that camera is probably in front capturing the hug you can't see him from front so you do it from behind I'm standing behind you just bend the hand the finger back just do one finger one finger anymore and then they let go they realized I think some people just they they get caught in the moment they get caught because people probably do lose their [ __ ] it's like it's like going a concert sometimes and depends on the president - yeah Clinton was I remember the times when I would help out I was never on his detail permanently but I would help out a lot on his shift because he moved to New York after his presidency and I would have him quite a bit people loved him and he liked engaging with people and then it was always it was difficult and then sometimes do with the public you're always scanning looking for threat looking for for threat and shooting was a big part of it where you had to be they wanted us to be very accurate shooters because if you're shooting your bar you might be shooting into a crowd and it better be very very very good at shooting and that was important I loved I loved shooting I loved the art of it that the sport of it but I also it was very stressful because you understood that every time you're doing something like my mind would go okay if that person's a bad guy or the threat can I shoot him at that distance and not hit somebody else and that was that would be very a difficult thing that kind of a nerve-racking thing to think about sometimes it's like you better be yeah yeah I taken into account your backdrop and all those other factors why'd you decide to stop doing it it was about 13 years almost for me and I think your situation was different and I think you didn't want to go and I think for me I looked at it and I loved what I did but I think we change we shift as people and when I went in I was young and I wanted to do something else and while I worked in the White House I was around the White House press pool and I was one of the few agents that didn't mind working with the press pool because we had to stay with them and make sure we stayed mr. an area corralled corralled now you call it no offense for the press pool but we let go who's gonna babysit the press today and one of the NBC was there and there was somebody from NBC who came up to me when the producers said you ever thought about going on air to cover news or to cover national security and all that and I hadn't and they kind of planted that seed and I was like no I don't know thank you but I'm not sure and maybe a good year or two years went behind went you know pass and it kind of stayed with me and I remember looking around and so look I love the job but one of the things I noticed is that when you do that job so much because we we we were all we were was that job I felt that I was worried that all I would be was that job and I'd see guys and gals leave or retire and they would struggle with their identity because that job became so part of who you were that I would see people leave and they didn't realize like Who am I now and I remember I had a boss great boss he did the job for many years and there's a point where they forced you to retire he didn't want to go and they forced him to retire and for six months he kept coming back to the office nobody said anything to him he would just come in and do paperwork and sent at the desk and you could just see the struggle and I would see and I say guys cuz it's mostly men on my job it was predominantly men in the service I could see them struggle and I knew that after I left I want to do security private security just wasn't my thing so I kind of was like you know maybe this is a an exit point maybe this is an opportunity to do something else and I feel like we have one life and maybe this goes back to my 9/11 thing but you have one life and I think I wanted to live as many lives within that one life as possible and so it was terrifying I was like all right let me give us a try and so I was like I'll do news I'll cover national security and I'll start doing that and initially my first move was to go to NBC to do that kind of like as a security analyst mind you I have no idea the same way I went with the blinders on into the police academy I went into this new profession and I just shifted and I said you know it's time for me to go and it was weird it was a struggle because I knew I was supposed to go but I was I didn't want to go and I actually I gave my two weeks to my boss and I told no one else and I told him I was like please don't tell any of the other agents because I didn't have the heart I knew if other my colleagues came in like dude you're leaving were you going what are you gonna do I knew I would break and I knew I wouldn't be able to do it and so I said so my boss just knew and the higher-ups and then I left and I said nothing to no one because I would have changed my mind and then I ended up going into the summer career field that I had to figure out in the Avot and I think we just grow Andy we change as people I just didn't want to be that one thing and I had seen guys that were just like this is what I am and I was afraid of it what you are right now there's a expiration on everything from cottage cheese to careers and you know guy serves in the military so you can do 30 years which is an absurd amount of time but if you join in you're 18 you're not even 50 yet you better have a plan B or your plan B is gonna be at the VFW telling stories that people are getting tired of hearing yeah you get stuck I mean do you see I do I do see people strong with it for sure and I think the point you made is correct it the people I see struggle the most are the ones who have so much of their identity associated with that one thing it becomes who they are not what they do yes it's a dangerous place to be yes where'd you meet your husband so he was in the Secret Service as well and he was Andalus heavy scandalous to be fair did I I dated him because he ended up leaving the service and he went to Homeland Security so I did not begin dating him until after he left but in that organization there were many agents who actually were married they didn't thrown upon it at all in fact I think at least for me as a woman having a husband who understood that world was very helpful I'm just gonna say that you guys had a shared understanding of the demands of the job it is very hard and you know what I take that back not just a woman I would see the guys that I worked with struggle so much at home with their wives and their families and divorce is because they could not understand the lifestyle it was such a hard lifestyle and I think a lot of families or wives felt like you're choosing this job over us and they didn't understand like you can't when you got an assignment you can't say hey boss can you I can we just can we change this or I want to do dinner I remember even before I got married I want to go on a date I had to book I had to three weeks out go to my boss I need this day off because so I could make sure I had off so I can go on a date with someone someone it was a very there was no such thing as sick leave sick leave was something you scheduled I will be having the flu from December 20th to January 2nd no you showed up to work you showed up to work you would the only way you don't show up is either if you're in the hospital on your way to the hospital or dead you sure want to work you never there's no such thing as calling in sick because everybody has a function and if one player doesn't show up the whole thing gets jammed yeah so you you schedule sick leave but going back to my husband he was an agent and I went and got my master's in forensic psychology and this actually kudos to the service they sent me to get it at the time when I was uh learning to do interviews and stuff and so I had met him through that he was in the Terry Gator but he was in the Midwest and a flyover state somewhere else and so I see him once in a while our paths would cross but I knew him for years and I didn't actually date him until many years later until actually I was in the president's detail towards the end of my career and so he was a polygraph examiner as well so he had the same interrogation skills so Jesus Thanksgiving dinner must be amazing sitting there just interrogating each other across like oh I noticed you looked up and to the left that's awesome it I think probably there's a lot of strength to be gained from you to having the same background and understanding of those demands because if you've never lived that I think it gets really really difficult I think it would have been hard yeah for me too I don't think it would hard for that person I also think they may not have accepted me look when you're and it's not one of the it's when you're a guy and you do this kind of job people like you people women look at it like yeah wow look at that that's cool and you're a girl they kind of look at you like what's wrong with you why would you want to do that I can see that it would have that people say that's me quite a bit you know why are you even internally like why are you here yeah so it's a it's an interesting thing to kind of go through but best the best thing I ever did in my life is it what drove you decided to write a book I know it's not coming out into what April April April yes who has what you do it's right here it had to go through a pre-publication review process with the service that took quite a while why did you decide to write a book so I almost did not I had been approached to write a book before but everybody wanted oh tell us what was like in there tell us about and so essentially I wanted to tell all and I said no so this one is about I wanted to write a book that would help people so I don't want to write a book about myself because I just it's just not who I am I don't we like oh let me tell you what I did and who I was it just it was that's very difficult for me thing for me to do but I wrote a book where there's a narrative there's some stories about me that I shared helped write the book to make it interesting for the reader but it's I took essentially all the things that I was taught to as far as protection as far as resilience training all the things that I learned that helped me deal with the world that we live in to be a more stronger person to be a more resilient person I called the book becoming bulletproof because in a sense like we all want to be that resilient human being and my like every day we wore our bulletproof vests all the time because of obviously the nature of our work and what a lot of people don't realize Kevlar which is what the bulletproof vest is vest is made out of it's fabric layered and layered and layered right and so I thought of making the book in this way initially everyone's like oh you should call it fearless and I really had an issue with that I'm like no because there's no such thing and people all people would meet me and say oh you must be you must not be afraid of anything and it's just not true and so I think when you tell people or you should you should be fearless and when you feel fear you think oh something's wrong with me nothing's wrong with you one of the most natural emotions that there is you're supposed to it yes it helps with evolution to like I am afraid of a lion on the Serengeti maybe don't go run with them you know the person who's not afraid of lions on the Serengeti is now dead they're yeah they're DNA did not pass on it's true or even in a life thing like when I left the service I was afraid I knew I had to do it but I still was afraid I still did it anyway and so with the book so I took all these different strategies and everything I learned as far as interviewing people influencing people's strategies how to to use them in your everyday life so that you can so it can help you so I we split the book in three sections the first part is protection so it's the physical part where people are always curious like hey how to protect myself my family my kids there's that element of it and then there's also the mental protection because I think it's not just physically protecting yourself but sometimes we have to be able to mentally protect ourselves from situations and people I think the mental aspect will lead you out of the physical requirement like high 90s percent all the time one of the I was flipping through the book I just showed up yesterday I definitely am gonna read this but I was flipping through it and looking at it and I like the layered approach to it and a lot of the stuff that you had there about reading body language the warning signs if you can recognize warning signs early don't have to get into physical education if you can distance yourself and almost almost every physical altercation is avoidable in my experience most people choose to enter into them because they want to either prove themself or the bravado or they're hammered or they just you know they're making bad decisions but I look at almost every violent confrontation I've ever been an outside of my old job yeah that I could have avoided every single one of them but you can't if you're not paying attention and that's one of the big things I think the book will help people with is give them some tools to recognize warning signs early and then act on the warning sign that's one thing I try to tell people eat just act on the warning sign you don't have to wait for the catastrophe maybe leave before the catastrophe occurs and you and then you find yourself embroiled it and you can't get out of it remove yourself from the situation but you can't do unless you're paying attention yes and I think something I think people think that when you walk away it's a cowardly thing to do that's the smart thing to do cuz if you sit and you engage with every buffoon that comes your way yeah you're a [ __ ] and you'll never get anything accomplished because there's plenty of them out there it is yes so and it's so is incorporating reading people but then also scent assessing people because we have a lot of deceptive people that come into our lives obviously sometimes what somebody says is not in harmony with what they mean mhm and so a lot of that polygraph training and my experience on my own in interviewing people and through a lot of the research that I've done through science there's techniques and things that you can do that you can look up for but you have to pay attention to people so it's like notice saying the things people say so I you know there's the the verbal part like there's certain things that people say that when you hear it it's like a little red flag should go up to help you to inquire okay why did this person to answer this question this way I asked them this you know what time did you come home last night oh I usually come home around 6 it's not what I asked you I asked you what time you come home last night but sometimes we'll hear that and we'll move on to the next question yep and we don't realize that there's more things we should follow up on and it's the nuances also of influencing people to talk to you we don't get anywhere I'll tell you this I never a confession from anybody when I told them that they were gonna go to jail when I told them they were a horrible person when I was like I'm a bad cop no it doesn't work it's done it does not work but there's other strategies you can use like priming people so priming is for example starting off a conversation in a way like every line I use when I enter an interview and even today when I do business negotiation or a deal my first lines always rehearsed I know what I'm gonna say and then you prime a sentence for example Andy it's so great to meet you you know I'm open to having this relationship and sharing all this information and I look forward to the opportunity of working together and cooperating and having an honest relationship so that sentence even though it's didn't flow as well but in that sentence I primed you with words sharing cooperative together open relationship you can prime people that [ __ ] doesn't work on me it does work it doesn't what is this no respect that's the thing you don't know when it happens you don't realize it but when you were doing this I was doing this I was watching that stuff doesn't work on me I sell everything but he can't work and it can really help people in just it's not a tactical way it's just in everyday in your everyday life and I think from me that was the goal of this book like let me give you all the tools that I've learned over the years that have helped me and they can help you be more resilient and not be fearless but live fearlessly people who tell me they have no fear I get extremely concerned with because it tells me that probably one of two things is happening they're either not paying attention or they're a sociopath it's [ __ ] yeah well both of those things are dangerous I've yeah fear is like Hossein it's a probably one of the most natural emotions you could ever have as a human being it's an alarm bell like hey maybe you should pay attention to this maybe this is dangerous maybe you shouldn't do this but you have to find a way to not be paralyzed by it it's about making smart decisions like I run I run at night and I go to a park by my house and I go running there and there are nights when I go if it's dead quiet I leave I'm like you know this doesn't feel right tonight I don't I don't know I'm not like oh I'm gonna go run I'm so-and-so it's like no this is you're paying attention to your environment a bad situation and I think it's also about the other thing with the book I talked about is about I think we live in a world where everyone's like oh it should be stress-free and this and that and I really have a different school of thought that stress is good stress is actually what makes you more resilience and it's there's a term for it it's called the Hermetic effect and they use it in our training academies and wedding you put small amounts of stress on you over periods of time and they increase that stress and that actually makes you more resilient but is the same way if you look back at the last day of buds versus the first day of buds you're able to tolerate stress right now in any training pipeline I've been able to go through breaking people with stress is super easy you just overload them the first day and they can't handle it because they're not resilient or they haven't become inoculated to that level of stress but you layer it an ounce at a time and a few months later they can handle an immense amount of stress amount that would break them on the first day but you have to apply it properly in those protocols all you just snap people well we're in training in buds where would people fall out or break them the most he was usually physically based it was a it was you know I say they people say that buds is all mental and there's a huge mental component to it but you're you're still driving around and your human body right you're still navigating in a flesh machine and there's a lot of requirements on the body and it becomes painful or you're tired or you're cold or you're hungry or the combination of all those things and then it starts eating away your brain like I can't do this anymore I can't do this for the next six months so it was more in those moments of we would introduce stress via physical activities and requirements and standards and just watch people come unwound between the years but it was in the beginning of training probably the first five or six weeks of training is the highest level of attrition because everything is overloaded there are some situations that are very difficult to pass if not impossible to pass cuz you have to learn how to deal with failure too and just really stress the students out and look at them at the you know the most microscopic level that we could and to try to basically drive them to the lowest point and then see the behavior that comes out because that's the true person yeah because you don't think you don't have time to think yeah you're - you're just fried I mean how leak is a good example where they keep us up basically for five days straight and most of the attrition and training occurs in the first two days of that and the people just become overwhelmed I've always been fascinated with Bloods training it is not very fascinating it is actually you know we use the ocean the sand some telephone poles some boats lessons on teamwork leadership and just try to suppress human beings to the lowest levels and see whether or not they can still put their own desires aside and function as a team whether they're gonna be selfish I mean it's you get people to that level where they're so fried and you'll watch and make selfish decisions instead of ones that benefit the team you'll watch them shut down they won't communicate they won't give a [ __ ] about anybody other than themselves and say okay you're this job is not for you can you can you disqualify someone when they behave that way or do they have to actually do something they have to quit but most of the time that behavior will will lead to it along the way you can and that class will turn on those people as well like you'll have this boat cruise of six or seven people and you'll just see the one person become ostracized because in those moments where they have a chance to be selfish they'll take it and everybody else and their team sees it they're like oh okay [ __ ] and they chip away at that person and then they'll eventually quit till they leave yep Andy I'm curious with with women there haven't been seals women there's only been open to women applicants I believe now for the first five or six years there have been two women in a paraphrasing listen I've heard this third hand when you go to the Naval Academy you have the opportunity they do stuff in the summers and there's a I think it's called Minnie buds it's for the officers who are looking to go down the steel pipeline it is a incredibly condensed version and from my understanding two women have applied for and gone to the Minnie buds program both of them do art or drop on request which is a polite way to say quit quit yeah what do you think it is what part of the process do you think is the I think it's gonna be the physical its physiological the differences between the male I do believe it's possible that there's a woman who could graduate from the training program and if they did awesome I have no issues with serving with a female seal wouldn't bother me at all as long as the standards were never moved but there are vast physiological differences between the female body and the male body and there's a ton of strength required specifically of upper body strength and buds and it would like I said the woman is out there whether or not that woman wants to be a seal I don't know and it will probably take a while to find that person it is correct like what you're saying and I'm saying this being a woman like there is we are not physically created equally like for me to do pull-ups like it took work yeah my upper body strength is different designed differently than the men's in fact you know full disclosure when I went to the service my first week I went there and I went through from the New York City Police Academy and I remember sitting in the lunch hall was the first week and I was sitting with some of the other New Yorkers I'm eating and they were acting kind of weird around me and I one of the guys like tell her and I was like tell me what and they were kind of quiet and I was like tell me what and then one of the guys who was actually a friend he's like look he's like I don't want to upset you but some of the other people here don't think you should be here and I was just like okay you know why and you know my mind I'm like did I not say hello to somebody in the whole can you tell like I'm completely shot of water sometimes that's where my mind went you know because I'm in New York so I'm like I was probably maybe rude to someone and I didn't realize it and he was like no he's like they just feel that you shouldn't be here and it was just the first week and I was like well how can you make that assessment of me I passed everything you guys passed and then one of the guys was like whoa you think the physical requirements are not the same and he was right and I went and I found out the men it's a super dangerous protocol and if this is all unfortunate by the way yeah the men's requirements the standards are different from the women and so I went and I went to the PT instructor and I said could you give me the sheet that shows the men's and women's and he's like sure and he gave it to me and at that point I was like I will train to meet the men's requirements you know there's different levels those excellent there's well there should be no men or women's requirement because in the environment you're gonna operate in out in the real world or the street if there is no requirement you're not gonna encounter somebody who says oh you're a woman so I'm gonna react I'm gonna give you 80% it's you're gonna get what you're gonna get exactly and so I was I was like you know what I don't want to hear [ __ ] from anybody I got that I pinned it on the wall in my room and I was like I will train to meet all these requirements and so and that's what I did and so even like with pull-ups truth be told I never had to do pull-up even but even in the OPD so I went to the service I couldn't do any pull-ups I had never done them before and I was just like I'm gonna do them and I'm not gonna do them at the meet the women standard I'm gonna do at the med Stan men's standards and I just did pull every day to like I couldn't feel my arms pull-ups pull-ups pull-ups and you just do it because it's like I don't want I don't want anyone to think I didn't earn it but it's interesting cuz even then most people will be like you know what yes I'll work with you I'll take a door with you'll do whatever with you but then there's always still gonna be people that no matter what you do because I remember when we did the final phase of training and we they did like one of the things they tested up like for example pull-ups were saying I went up there and I banged out I might have banged up more pull-ups in half the class half of my class I've you know a lot of the guys not one of those guys that had an issue with me came up and said hey good job Tom Perez so sometimes some people will still have an issue yeah but that's when you realize like oh you know that's on you [ __ ] those people but that's my personal theory perhaps it wouldn't be the best but that's my personal theory but I do agree with you like there is standards that are different and there are times when even me as a woman I would see someone else go through and I'm like I don't think that's right because in the street no one's gonna care ya get what you get I'm glad you closed it out what would you like to close with why would I like to close with I don't know any price don't have to know I'm interrogating you that's not how you interrogate it's out like have you have you ins let's have this I know how we're gonna close it have you ever interrogated anybody yes but none of the procedures that I use should be replicated I think we went to very different interrogation yes I didn't go to a school I just needed information yeah thank you for making the flight thank you from New York to Montana from New York City to Montana definitely yeah it's actually very nice out here I see what the I see what it's all about it doesn't suck and when the book comes out I'll make sure to put up another place about the post about the book because it's awesome and I think people need the tools that's one thing I think is missing is a good set of tools for people that can apply and I just if I could change I'm there's a lot of things that I would change but one thing that would certainly change about most people it's just pay more attention most people vast majority people probably hide 99.9% of people I think to have a good heart and then you have good morals but that doesn't mean that there are people who won't pray on that and you're never gonna find them unless you pay attention I think also but even as good people like even good people make bad decisions even good people hurt people even if you look back on your life and I look back at my life and there's decisions we've made where it's like you know what I hurt this person I did wrong to this person because that's just what we do and I think with the book like the idea with the book I really just stayed in harmony with Who I am is just to serve I was like how can I serve I don't want to just write a book to write a book I don't want my name to be on the cover I didn't care genuinely I didn't care yep and even with this really cool let's put your photo on it I'm like no no couldn't be anywhere it can be in the bag and a little small-block you know when they put the authors forward photo but that's not the point it's just to be of service to people it's like look I was privileged both you and I were very privileged to go something to be around very like we were around some of the best people totally agree and the reason why I try to make brave decisions and I feel like I have courage in me is because I was around other people who were strong and had courage and pushed me you know one of the questions sometimes people say would you really take a bullet for someone or for the president and I'd say yeah well first of all they're like oh for that person or whoever person they were you know pointing out to it's like first of all you don't I never served the president you don't serve the person you you serve the office of the president and what you're doing is bigger it's a symbolic thing and for me my mindset was like you know what we're all gonna die all of us but to give your life and service its save another human beings life for me no better way to die that's a good ending

Channel: Cleared Hot Podcast

Views: 228,060

Keywords: military, world record, united states navy seals (organization), andy stumpf cleared hot, andy stumpf, navy seal, jre, cleared hot, podcast, andy stumpf podcast, cleared hot podcast, andy stumpf wingsuit, powerfuljre

Id: 6-BzSYUjK4o

Length: 137min 4sec (8224 seconds)

Published: Mon Dec 02 2019