Chilling WITH Pinegrow (Bob Means) [Full Stream]

so you're probably here because you are learning webflow i'm a webflow guy and i've been making webflow videos for the past year i'm a developer and i've been developing for the last 10 years i'm also very interested in no code and more specifically teaching the coding concepts around these no code tools which again is probably a reason why you're here recently i was introduced to a new no code tool where it was new to me it's actually been around before webflowers i think it was introduced in 2012 2014 and that tool has been pine grow you might have noticed a few videos going up recently about me exploring pine grove and just having fun with it really not really having any aim for the videos just learning the tool pine grove actually reached out to me shortly after i made those videos and we've been talking since and trying to figure out what we could potentially do together to try and promote pine grove now pine grove is a fantastic tool but i see it as a tool it's just another tool just like webflow i look at the suite of products that are out there i don't dedicate myself to any particular one because not one size fits all unfortunately web development my company makes a lot of apps so that means we actually spend a lot of our time using react and various single page application technologies to help build those those dashboards those products those sas applications so i recently sat down with bob means who works with pinegrow and he works on various documentation creating tutorials for them and even dipping into a bit of programming every now and again to help improve the product and during a twitch stream which you can find at twitch.tv fake sam gregory we actually discussed some of the issues that i was having in one of my first videos and various ux improvements future suggestions and and we just kind of got into the nitty-gritty of what what the future is of pine grove and actually just helping me out resolving some of the issues that i have so i think it's a really interesting conversation just to kind of get an idea of pie and grow what they've kind of got coming up and just actually just some little tips and tricks that i picked up on my journey actually talking to bob we also get into a little bit of a discussion around kind of the web application that webflow is and the native application that pinego is so if that sounds interesting to you let me know if you want to if you want to hear more about pine grove like various tutorials and things like that if if you're even using pine grove because it certainly um interests me because it's it's a lot more powerful it goes a lot further than web flow um but i'm yet to make a video and kind of my um kind of where i am with my my thinking when it comes to webflow versus pie and grow if there is even a comparison between them sit back relax it's a it's a podcast esque episode um and just kind of listen to our conversation and yeah learn all about pine grow the easiest way to let me know that you like the content of this episode is to hit the like button and if you want to support me and my teachings then head on over to patreon.com fake sam gregory where you can support the channel for as little as five pounds a month [Music] i came to pine grove as an enthusiast i'm actually the opposite from you i'm more of a back end guy and the front end scares me not from not from the technical aspects you know i can manage the cascade i can you know i know all the minutia probably of the tags um it was more the design eye it's more the typography the colors things like that and for me my enthusiasm about pine grow was that i could use my sort of more back end technical knowledge to put together a page and it helped me a little bit anyway with the design but i completely agree with you it's a tool and one of my bits of enthusiasm for it is that um it it doesn't pigeonhole you into doing something its way it it gives you a little bit of freedom however i have to say as a person who deals with customer service for pine grove who fields people's questions that's that's also what scares people the most you know there's not a single way to do things um it's a very it's very forgiving of allowing you to manage your workflow how you want to manage it but that's also very daunting for a lot of people similar to um photoshop in a lot of ways there's there's three different ways to do the same thing and you choose your favorite way and you choose your workflow but with that flexibility with that amount of flexibility comes a lot of power and um a lot of responsibility as well so it's um yeah so um to kind of get into the meat of why we're here so i made that video and i was i encountered a lot of issues and that's where that's where you guys kind of reached out and and thought it'd be cool to address these issues talk about these issues because i was i intentionally went into it not having really looked at some tutorials because i'm a developer i just want to play around with it and see how far i can get i also feel like that's an interesting case study for from a ux perspective of the developers of pine grove which i openly welcomed their feedback and all the rest of it so that's where we are now and we have a big big well not a big old list but we have a list of issues that we were having suggestions that i had made during that episode and um i i think it would be an interesting conversation just to go through that list so sure so do you have these in the same order that i had sent you them or i i yeah i have uh i have your your list pulled up here um so i have to say that uh we took you know some some good feedback from your earliest video and we've actually already pushed out so one of the things pine grove can do is it can there's both downloadable updates but we also have an ability to push updates um so there's a live update uh that's running behind the scenes and we've already pushed out a couple of uh ui ux changes uh from your first video that's right awesome so as we go through the list uh i'll i'll kind of point out a couple of those where you've already made some changes um so one of the first things that you brought up is that uh so pine grow allows you for people who maybe haven't seen the videos pine grove allows you to open uh a number of different basic framework templates so it includes bootstrap it includes tailwind there's a couple of lesser well-known ones like angular materialize but it also allows you if you desire to pull up a plain html very very basic template so you know basically just a little bit of your head information with some meta tags you can fill in a title you can fill in and not a lot else and one of the things that you had brought up is um it would be good to have a normal eyes built in um and we we sort of have been debating about that for a little while um again pine grow doesn't like to pigeonhole or place too much opinion on to people as far as what they want to load in and while there is you know the most famous of normalization uh css files we kind of want to give people the option but what we've decided now and we're still waffling back and forth is are we going to have so the other thing that pine grow can do is under one of the menus you can load in resources and we're thinking of offering a normalized css either as a resource or as a separate template so you so in other words when you bring up the original framework menu the modal you can either pull in just a very plain um html template or an html template that already has that normalized css attached to it um and we're sort of you know it always comes down to uh how much effort you think or how much burden you think you're placing on users you know if somebody has to in order to get that normalized on the page navigate through a couple of different menus then click attach and something like that is that unduly burdensome should it just be a separate template of course for us it's it's a lot easier to maintain as a separate template so but we we do envision that going forward that's probably going to be in the next version that we um release that you know that ability because of course there's not just normalized there's actually reset css as well so i mean you know you're you're really uh splitting hairs when you talk about oh i'm a normalized person or a reset css person exactly would that would you be allowing those separate reset libraries um as part of that workflow or is it just normalized that you're going with so i think normalizes the newer one i think normalizes normalizes yeah yeah one of the things that i have to say is you know up to now i've done uh more software as a service of more like smaller specialized software pieces and when you get into something like pine grove one thing that i'm starting to appreciate with these web apps is or it's standalone but sort of a web is that you know you have to be careful about the technical debt that you accumulate the more features you add the more time you're going to have to spend supporting those in one way or another um i mean pine grove it's really easy to go ahead within that package that we distribute to to put in as many resources as we want um i i mean to be completely honest with you i don't think we've had the discussion about that about you know normalized versus reset versus give the the user the ability to choose either yeah yeah because i mean that's that's something within the technical ability yeah yeah i mean at the end of the day you know what it is is a line of html to say bringing in that thing so right it's just a minor head start i i guess the reason why i thought of it is because in my in my original video it was a simple thing it was like margins at the top and the side yeah and that stuff is not is built in by the browser and normalized kind of tends to get rid of that or or whatever um and there's probably a line item in here somewhere about actually on the on the right hand side uh the style panel there is margins that has has been added but you're not seeing any margins in the styling panel so i just felt a bit confused about where those it wasn't clear where those margins and paddings came from i think i just went to the html because as a web developer i'm lazy i i you know i i bring in normalized don't really think about it i've i've it sounds simple but you forget does it go on the body or does it go on the html so i was like html margin zero zero didn't work body my oh there it is um those sorts of things i think that it's a two-fold kind of problem um and again i think there's a lot of items seeing those default values in the in the style editor versus knowing that you've done something or there is something already removing those weird things that no one ever wants anyway because that's why normal eyes was invented i guess so yeah you know um well it was interesting it would be interesting to see because yeah of course when you go playing when you in that menu you go playing hd uh yeah playing html and there's only one item in that thing so just have another one in there that says normalizes yeah um would cl it wouldn't be too much of a burden sort of visually is adding one extra item so yeah look forward to that that was cool um so this is a big one i think this is one of the biggest things that i feel like from a ux perspective um i feel like pine grove lets me down and and and um hurts my workflow the most and that's the contextual menus and to put a bit of context to this is that i was seeing things like flex container grid items i could i could modify the grid thing and thinking about your original comment around adding burden and essentially these tools walking a fine line between limiting and providing accessible tool of course you might want to go into a flex child and set the styling of a child before you go to the before you go to the parent right right of course as a developer you might want to choose to do that that just might be the way your brain um works however i was i was getting it adds to that list of styling properties when i see lots there and i'm seeing flex um attributes being given to me but i've not set anything the parent or whatever to just style flex yeah so that's the kind of context and i'm guessing that you've prepared a well-articulated answer i'm just guessing um no this is this is actually something that i've also commented on previously and and you know i'll be truthful with you the the reason why things are in the order that they're in within the styles styles panel the thing the reason why things sort of maybe aren't as responsive i guess for lack of a better word as you would expect is you know as much as we'd like to pat ourselves on the back us thinking we want to give people the flexibility that if they think flex child first then parent flex item then you know whatever as much as that's a little bit in the philosophy i think to be completely honest with you if you if you look at the evolution of pine grove from first version to current version yeah basically again rather than going back and rehashing earlier code necessarily um some of those controls like flex like grid were sort of tacked on right yeah um when when those uh actual css specs were were approved so you know pine grove like sort of predated some of those and you had this certain set of styles and when those came on board as a popularly supported css set of stylings those kind of got tagged on the end and prior to your video match has been working quite a bit so sort of the head of pine grove the head programmer has been working quite a bit on redesigning sort of the the styling input and actually there's a couple of different i'm pointing over here like everybody knows what's over here but your list of your list of uh points is is on my screen over here and um he's actually been working on addressing some of these points and had been working on them and sort of putting together a slightly slightly updated styles panel that is gonna at least partially address some of the things that that you were talking about and again we're we're wrestling with we always want to keep pine grow slightly not opinionated yeah even if that does give users a little bit of uh head bending when they first start using it um but but yeah we we were aware of you know issues like that yeah because i think it's just it it's overwhelming and you know we're we're moving into a world of you know uh what like netflix bringing together all of your movies you know curation is what i was looking for we're in a world of like curation and things and technology thinking one or two steps ahead of us and i think it would be interesting i mean you know pine grove um i'm not sure how big the team is you mentioned last week how big is the team of developers at pine grove i would i would say that really um there's two people that are really core to the development uh and then there's the rest of us that are doing things like building templates building the blocks that are seen in pine grove um just recently one new person was brought on board uh to do some more development to bring in some specific features uh and then you know there's a team of us that are involved in product support and running the the support desk running the forums putting out documentation yeah so i mean uh a slightly larger group of people helping support the app with the features already yeah there but even a smaller team actually progressing and building on top of the app is that correct yeah yeah yeah it's a pretty small team relatively speaking like web flow is exactly right it's going to be massive and and given a you know a larger team and and all the rest of it i'm sure like an interesting um uh uh experiment to try would be to you know try our new um let's use a buzzword of ai you know try try out our ai interface where is is a bit more predictive it's a bit more fluid in terms of only presenting to you flex options when you set the parent to be flex you know various things like that minimizing that interface because again you know i've had small tweets and and comments on my videos saying you know a lot of people find it daunting and yeah i know a lot of these people are coming from webflow and and are you know to your point about the daunting aspect of of ui a lot of them are designers now able to do development they're not quite as well versed in in a lot of these things um but it would be interesting to try and of course that sounds like a lot of work for a small team but um i think personally it would make my life would make my workflow a bit faster because i'm not then scrolling all the way down to the bottom of the styles list and looking at i mean again there's a point in here somewhere about the more visual interface but looking at lots of text boxes isn't giving me a lot of visual cue cues for things so it would be interesting to see obviously a difficult one to to attack but um certainly an option i think many would probably find you know would welcome um i can imagine equal amounts of people hating that and wanting that control wanting that power you know yeah developers especially you know they want to know where things are they they grow muscle memory in certain things they're you know they're more they're more logical in that respect so maybe maybe something for the future but it's um i can imagine yeah you guys are stating over it yeah it's definitely something that we're we're currently improving um like if you drop down uh so further down in your list you have uh a couple of things about default values being pre-filled uh adding things like pixels to the end rather than the user having to add them themselves uh one thing that's that's definitely being incorporated you also uh say that a drop down so that you can select the values like if you want pixel if you want ram m yeah whatever um those those are all definitely something that's built going to be uh in the future um styles panel uh and i i think you're right that's that's something that we've been talking about for a while as as being needed and being able to to increase people's workflow without without at the same time being opinionated rather than saying it has to be pixels if you have a drop down there that allows you to pick a couple of different ones and i think that's good yeah one of the one of the things that i've been advocating for just dropping back for a second to to address one of the points you made one of the things that i've been advocating for as far as pine grove and trying to push as far as pine grow an even again i do work for the company but i'm not being i'm trying not to be an evangelist for i know this is the be all and all yeah yeah yeah is the the one thing that i i don't kind of like about it is that if you do not if you are not a front-end person or no excuse me if you are a visual front-end person but not necessarily a person who knows i think you brought up one of the things was you know like your font color what the exact css property is there right the thing that i like is right above the uh the settings panel the lower visual editor there's a box that shows you the actual rules you're building and i know i i know if you're on a deadline you don't want to be staring at that box at the same time you're doing other things but i think it's a great tool for learning oh when i do this this is how it translates over to my style sheet um i agree with that actually yeah you know i'm kind of advocating that it's almost a really good tool to learn html and see a css from a coding perspective you know because you just have access to the code at the same time that you are able to build visually and i kind of like that so one of my points was around um i was in the boxed shadow i think i was stuck for an embarrassingly long amount of time um that i think i put in the color or something um and what what webflow would do is if you put in the color obviously you're going to want to fill in the rest of this information here and i put in the color and i was like why isn't that box shadow coming up and then i was like oh because i've not put in i think i put x and y but i didn't put in distance or something like that yeah again it's it's being i don't know whether this you know this enters this debate of giving too much power too little power or the rest of it but it's being that one or two steps ahead that i think could pine grow could benefit from by knowing that of course if i'm putting color and then i'm going to want to fill these in and then prompt you to fill those in developers are just as lazy as the rest of us right and i feel like once you get so um it sounds crazy but if i'm typing the code i know full well what the values need to be but when my mind this could just just be me now by the way you know but when in in when i'm in the context of this visual editor i'm wanting it to take a step for me i'm wanting it to kind of just fill things out for me help me out a little bit um again that's probably a user research question rather than just taking my word for it as a gospel but it sounds like you've had a few conversations around that sort of process right yeah the other the other thing i don't know paradoxically or not around this exact thing is you notice over to the right there there is that whole dial thing that allows you to enter an angle and that that actually if if you're not you really have to wrap your mind around the different settings for a box shadow because as you move that angle it changes your x your y your distance it's changing all sorts of things and if you drop back and do the math it makes perfect sense and if you just are used to doing it visually using that angle finder it's great but if you are thinking about the code thinking about what you want your exact values to be i've had a number of users that have a real hard time between you know what that ends up spitting out and you know what the values are that get entered into the box um so yeah that's another another area of uh user experience that we have to take a look at the other thing that comes up with this one i don't think you brought it up but i've had users bring up that we're wrestling with is if you look at type right box shadow of none so in this context this x right here kind of makes sense clicking on it means you're going to turn that box shadow sort of off right but there's other contexts uh for example [Music] uh here right within the border you see this x and from from many people's user experience if you have something like you know two pixels here black and you know you set all of them to that right you would think that clicking well first of all well i don't have anything selected but first of all you would think that it would pop up a two picks wide black border but the thing is this x doesn't actually mean zero this out it just means don't show anything right making sure that the consistency is there that an x always means get rid of or an x always means is is something that i think is also something we need to improve on and need to you know rather than rather than having this maybe as a default of don't show whether it's solid or dashed or dotted instead if it always defaulted to you know solid i think people would maybe have a little bit easier time with it something like that you know yeah um that was i mean i i edited my video and i was stuck on that that specific border thing yeah for an embarrassingly long amount of time my video that went out was like it trimmed it down but i was i was because i couldn't i could not see that i didn't understand the x but to your point about the consistency of what these different symbols mean and what they do i can understand that being a real mind f because it's yeah you kind of expected to do different things in different scenarios and um i guess user testing is the only way to kind of get around that but yeah can sympathize with that difficulty yeah yeah it's just a lot of code to you know definitely a b test to make sure that it has the impact that you expect and not a detrimental impact yeah yeah yeah for sure so um to just to wrap up all that question because we see a few things so with the with the box shadow um and pre-filling these things out that's just an ongoing discussion that's something you're you're considering and all the rest of it so um tool tips on on hover of the icons i've got as my next note so actually if you if you actually do hover it's just a little bit slower than you would like it to be yeah it's it's there but usually people like they hover they're like where is it and then they move on to the next one um so that's something that we're we're also yeah again it's it's one of those things where experienced users are like get these damn tool tips out of my way and people who are newer to it um we we have that problem especially with different pop-up notices where we think it's you know useful to tell a user something um but a lot of you know experienced users are like okay this is the seventh time i've seen this i know and trying to get that balance um yeah yeah is something that yeah we've been struggling with as well i mean i mean maybe it's the the first seven times i i don't know why it's the first seven times it's point two of a second but net after the eighth time then it's the second or so you know yeah yeah yeah it's uh yeah okay so i'm just being impatient it's you are not the only one yeah yeah yeah simple fix there we go um we spoke briefly about this now automatically adding those pixels you know because being uh i mean i would expect pixels i'm sure some developers maybe wouldn't um before we get into that like do do you run analytics on the app so you know what people are typing and various things like that i mean apps are not my world at all so i don't know how they work and all the rest of it but do you do you know how people are using that app um we don't we don't we don't collect that sort of thing we do push out updates but we don't really collect a lot back in in feedback in that way but yeah i i agree it would be interesting to see like what is the most common you know thing that people are putting into it because yeah maybe maybe pixels but if 70 80 people are using pixels um that might be the automatic kind of um thing that uh gets put in in various different circumstances i mean i know we're very much moving away from pixels now and then there's a gosh a ton of different ways that you can you know using vms and um vw sorry rems all that kind of stuff to get your thing but um yeah it was just kind of again an embarrassing moment i'll put 20 or something like that and just enter thought it was going to do its thing but then you know didn't again a few moments yeah but i mean in that in that case where people do enter a unitless value maybe it is a pretty good idea to say okay we're just gonna push out pixels or um you know potentially do something a little smarter as far as in the settings or um even so the the other thing that we're working on that we are very cognizant that is something that's up and coming and and needs to be better handled within pine grove is css variables and css variables are are really uh i think a strong way to handle your typography and you know obviously pixels is i'm when you bring up the topic of filling in pixels it's not just typography but yeah yeah you know um uh i i i think that if we i think that there's a strong possibility that we're going to be able to look at things like the css variables that are set up what units are being used there and to be able to translate that down to what units get used within your within whatever particular thing that you're you're using a little bit more um so almost you know an ai like user interface where it anticipates a bit more um but that's that's definitely something we're you know working in some ways towards yeah yeah i can imagine that being a bit of a difficult thing to implement if you start yeah talking about ai in even in a rudiment rudimentary context you know simple things and it's difficult and and actually you you i made a note on here to have a discussion about is is variables and me coming from a lot of webflow use i was thinking of more swatches and color palettes you reminded me yes there are css variables of course that shows how the length of time i haven't developed a website for but um yes css variables are another way to do that maybe swatches create css variables or something it seems like an interesting thing to do because yeah um actually i forgot this is a complete tangent but something we mentioned right the beginning of the of this episode um i um i actually described front-end developers in two camps right and you at the beginning of the episode you described one camp of front-end developers this is like my theory now right okay one side one side of the front end developer is very visual very pixel perfect can see when paddings are off and all the rest of it um with the advent of like react and view and all this logic being brought to the front end what what that's ended what that's done i i think it's because of these front-end application what that's done is a whole new group of front-end developers has come on the scene that are very logical typical kind of back end developer method method methodology i don't know i'm terrible methodologist well yes methodical methodical is the word i was looking for um very methodical and they will just not see that their web page looks like trash the the amount of times like you a visual person needs to well yeah you know um but there are people but you don't necessarily call yourself a front-end developer right you you said you were more in the back-end camp but there are people that call themselves front-end developers but what they're actually really good at and it's not a criticism it's just it's just a recognition that there are two different trains of thought that's going on in a front-end developer's mind um i've gone way off top it's because we went on that tangent i've forgotten why i brought that up but um it's just maybe an interesting i don't know what the conversations are happening at pine grove but then maybe there's just an interesting conversation around swatches slash variables yeah so um one way you can sort of see the evolution of our thinking at pine grove with respect to that is and i don't know how much you've done with um anything besides the plain html uh end of the um or framework system yeah or in this in the case of bootstrap and property bootstrap and tailwind you do a lot of the styling through the properties yes at any point both of those frameworks right now very much have that swatch mentality built in where you can basically add in um you know a sort of set of base colors and it will generate you know different hues from those as a selector panel so rather than just being limited to you know whatever your four five six basic colors it gives you a whole big panel um and uh that seemed so so basically tailwind kicked that off that that had to be sort of developed for tailwind uh that was further developed from base tailwind to being able to customize tailwind and then that idea of building up uh basically themes where you can pick different themes that are going to have different base colors and then hues that has made its way to bootstrap and sometime hopefully the next iteration um that same swatch idea is going to make it over into the plain html as well or basically i i shouldn't even say the plain html it'll it'll be you know framework independent it'll just be whatever framework you build up you'll be able to access something like that so yeah that's something that something that we've very much been working on yeah yeah because i'll be honest i haven't used css variable i always kind of forget about them one of the reasons why you know i went straight to the swatches as opposed to the css variables but you're right and that's that seems like it would be a an interesting challenge to try and solve um yeah with regards to all that so yeah but no that that's very much i you know i the the one thing that i don't want to or i i hate uh continuously doing is saying oh yeah we thought about already made you know when it's when when the you know proof is in the pudding that the pudding is still plain vanilla you know i don't care if you say it's going to have sprinkles it doesn't have sprinkles yeah so i hate keeping it to keep giving that answer yeah yeah yeah do you guys have a um like an open trello board or anything like that where you've got the features that you've got in the to-do list a few companies do it but it's an interesting way just to see what their their product is or their la their ambitions are as a product do you have that at all you don't we don't yeah i i have to admit um a lot of the ideas of where the product is going really are um in matcha's mind um you know and you know sometimes everybody he's very open to suggestions he's very open to dialogue about what we think is a good direction um but i i have to respect that the fact that he's used to working with a small group and used to uh sort of being you know the one who thinks it up and implements it and you know thinks of the next thing um and he really wants to make sure that he doesn't over complicate the product to the point where he loses control um so but but that is something that we're we're thinking about more as the the product kind of does get much more complex i mean in the past year and a half um we've brought on interactions uh we've brought on tailwind uh as a framework so we've you know we've added a lot in just the last last little bit that you know at some point your product gets to a tipping point where you really do have to plan a lot more closely what the next thing you're going to develop where you're going to place priority but right now right now we just you know everybody is whenever they're working they have slack open and we're constantly just talking about and and you know sounding ideas off of each other sometimes it works we're in different we're in different time zones yeah sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but yeah i mean it sounds exciting though just to be in in in a world where uh or in a company where you know if an idea an idea is just sprung up in your mind and it's just a simple slack message away for someone to actually implement it it sounds exciting and i think um that startup culture is obviously uh something people um admire or not admire but it's it's something people sort of you know dream of something yeah yeah you know yeah and um the i mean the the open trello board is not necessarily a right or wrong way i just thought it was an interesting sort of way to demonstrate a not even a product roadmap but just you know people in forums raising uh an issue and then them and instead of like you know being completely bewildered they can check the product roadmap it's already in there oh i want this feature was already is already a card not right or wrong thing it might not be right for everyone of course yeah and that i mean that is something so on our forum we do have a like features request yeah and and one thing that we do get press back on about that i'll be completely honest is that people don't feel like we give enough feedback on that particular section of the forum that we don't keep people quite updated as as much on what we think is coming next um and you know i i i we we the the other dangerous thing to having a road map slightly dangerous thing to having road map is you know if it's one of those things if you over promise or you think you can implement a feature easily that's going to be majorly breaking for other parts of your your your product um you know then you've thrown that out there you've made sort of a promise and then you have to say yeah but well and and pull it back and yeah so that's that's something that we we constantly wrestle with is making sure not to over promise um yeah yeah yeah and and you know it's it's no it's not a terrible thing to say look we we pulled this card into uh you know i don't know if you guys use trello but uh or or whatever you know we we took on this task and it didn't work out you know there's no harm in that but it sounds like it's an additional overhead to say you know to that go back to that person you know right on that forum but it does sound like there's a perfect opportunity for some automation there you know someone adds something to that thing uh to that forum uh uh feed automatically adds it to the backlog moves it around your this ticket you know anyway that's just yeah yeah that's just automation's gone nuts yeah it's a it is a good point it is a good possibility yeah so this next one i'm going to skip default values because i think we've talked about that but this next one is is it'll be interesting to to hear your thoughts because now i've actually retracted on my thoughts on it because i'm more well-versed but it's around inline styles which i can write here and by the way this is the default thing so if i was to create you know a section here and start creating some styling you know giving it a background you know giving it some color whatever is it's already creating it as an inline style now in comparison to webflow webflow it will create a class and and that's kind of um that's it it's it's create is as ugly as they are div block 27 it creates a class and it encourages that class uh mentality and actually it wasn't until probably my second video or just playing around with it for another few hours that i realized ah okay create a class blah blah and then then start adding my styles and now when i create a color it will be added to the styles i i obviously raised that as a issue concern or even just a comment but i'd be interested to know what you're internal thoughts are around the style versus inline attribute yeah sure if you just just really quickly add another inline style oh now you put me on the spot what do i add what do i add let's go with 100 so yeah so now to the right there of the is that the right yes to the right of the style attribute of the inline style where it's at below where it says nine style just up just up a little bit to the plus side okay if you click that so now you can add whatever cs uh whatever you know class id tag whatever you want to add you can either click you can if you type uh within there it will add the class um so you can it it yeah it gives you some power that way so you know again this goes back to the sort of non-opinionated or non forceful way of of making you do things to a certain extent and this is a i must emphasize a very small extent um we were also thinking about different uh in addition to not wanting to place an opinion on how you use it um there is also the um we're leaving the uh overall platform open to using other frameworks where that inline styling is more important where you know you're you're looking at uh small snippets small templates worth of code that you bring in where you know your button is going to live in its own file and this is gone and and you're actually um and a lot of frameworks are moving away from that but at the time that this was put together you know you're sometimes going to want those inline styles or or the the framework prefers you add them as inline styles which is yeah and a bizarre to think but um yeah but yeah it's it's completely one of those things where um we wanted pine grow to be relatively non-opinionated yeah no and i get it and i think i was coming into it um you know i probably the last project i touched was a web flow project so i was on autopilot thinking that was going to be the case um and you know there is absolutely some more you know many reasons why you would want to add an inline style and it's just being intentional with that and knowing that okay immediately when you select on select an element and start playing around style it's gonna add an inline style and just the moment you know that the moment you're gonna correct it but i think maybe at the time um like i was questioning it or i can't even remember what i said in the video but um obviously it came up as a note and that would be that you know and that totally makes sense we've got a uh we've got a comment by the way uh the real bastique no to be precise we had trello a few years ago we exchange ideas and prepare possible features a little differently now live discussions github notes and so on so who's the real bastique i can guess but i i actually don't know i can hey guys by the way hi guys little robot i don't know whether that's a twit twitch thing or whether that's uh maybe a clue it is but uh yeah i mean to the to the trello thing it's just whether it's public or whatever it would it would be it would be interesting to give people an insight of what is about to be developed or what is being developed so they don't raise an issue about something that's literally ready to be shipped i don't know it's yeah um so this is i believe this next one is something you actually already fixed there was a there was a edit text error um my question to you is why did that keep popping up so i could actually learn what it was but actually you found that was an error text editing mode is on can't edit text a body element okay no worries about that let's undo that wonder how that happened so i've got my body here so it was yeah it was a bug where um i think i i think this one wasn't so much an error as a feature um so i i think i'm trying to remember where this came up in the video right now but um so one of the thoughts that uh went into this this feature bug is that if you were to bring in a block that had say a headline that's laura mipsum plus some paragraph and some headings whatever you know there's a good chance that you're already going to know what content you want to go into those blocks and rather than having to select this block double click it to get the text editor to come up edit the text go to the next one double click you know it it was easier if it always stayed until you told it not to be in text editing mode to stay in text editing mode so you can click on the first put in the text click on the second put in the text click on the third put in the text um so since then at least i think this is the one you're talking about it is since then we've pushed out a live and i don't i don't remember if we've had an uh a formal update to pine grove since whichever video this was um but we've put in a feature where at the end of the blue context menu that comes up when you're editing text there's a check box and you can decide whether or not whether or not that check box is is clicked it's either going to say when i move on to the next item so if you just put a div and put it in h1 or something to okay so something with text right yeah yeah this is not semantically correct though to the front end developers we've got two h1s here and there's chaos but yeah so we've got a h yeah so i've got my h1 in there so like uh go ahead and click on the text editing or whatever uh uh just on the context menu either on the text or on the yeah either one so now if you look at the end of that new blue context menu that check box right there allows you to either keep the sort of default value of uh leaving text editing on when you change elements or to when you change elements turn text editing off okay so that'll that'll be remembered as you shift through elements whatever you pick the first time you do it will be remembered either checked on or unchecked yeah um and so that's the way sort of we address that i i think that's what you were talking about for that comment well i mean i can't remember the specific point in the video but i can remember because this is actually a direct result to the way i work because i i i mean i think i think i said in the video i like just dragging my html out regardless of what the content is i do my html and then i do my content i'm not sure if everyone else is anyone else anyone else is going to have the same issue but um i get what i i sort of seem to remember just because that's the way i work i probably would have just been la di da la da just adding all my elements in and you know all the rest of it and maybe edited edited one bit of text and then after that everything was giving errors exactly yeah precisely yeah it's just because it stayed in that text editing mode rather than dropping out when you went to the next element yeah and i can i can imagine why some people will find that useful as well so there we go mystery solved mystery solved cool um next one we had was uh drop down oh i think we spoke about this a drop down to have pixel rem and all the rest of it i think i think that just encourages a slightly more less daunting um interface when you when you start to see these interactive elements and like you know going back to web flow you type pixel oh sorry you type ch as an example and it will change the drop down to ch because it recognizes that you typing it also wants to well yeah right it changes the drop down but you mentioned briefly earlier on around that is that discussion that's happening or yeah that's that's i decided for it that's something that's that's currently being implemented where you have that drop down um with the different values that are possible for that particular css value so yeah that's that's very much something that's being implemented right now nice because i think it again it's it's a it's a funny thing but i'm i'm me right and i i sometimes i do like to play and i think that adds an element of play i don't know whether that sounds completely crazy but no just just sometimes i'm in the type mode sometimes you know i'm holding a cheeseburger in one hand so i just want to click around and all the rest of it and yeah yeah it just adds a as a visual element i think would be quite nice and again because because pine grow does have a you know fairly strong uh visual editor you know vibe to it um we actively encourage that and we sort of i guess advertise that as a feature that you know if you just want to play with your paddings you can move this slider up and down and look at how it changes if you want to change a position or something yeah cool um this was a really weird one and i couldn't understand this one the um elements created a runtime error so if again if this is the one i was thinking about this caused me well i had to restart the application because of this and what happened was um i created element and i saw a duplication of that element that was surrounded by like an orange glow so what is that what was going on there so that is a combination of uh sort of a not sort of a bug uh in the html parser within pinegrow and a little bit of user error yeah and the user error is in that particular instance um i think the way that uh error originated you would grab some text from another site or from yes i remember some document and copied it in and i think i even commented on that as well i think i think i commented on the fact oh i copied that and it copied the link or something but yeah sorry so so what ended up happening is it actually you're copying wherever you copied it to i didn't catch this matcha caught this in your your video um you had actually nested a paragraph element within a paragraph element got you okay and for whatever reason that that through the pine grown html parser just into an absolute fit and wasn't able to say this is simply an error it was saying oh he must want some convoluted thing and yeah we were off to the races with a whole you know error stack we think anyway uh that that's now been pushed out that are that it fix for that has been pushed out where it should instead give you just a a more human interpretable straight up error of what happened there yeah but yeah that that was that was hugely a bug in the html parser of of pine grow all fixed because because i mean the fact that i restarted the application and then it was fine was there's obviously yeah there was obviously a bug there but i could totally get if i was dragging in a paragraph within paragraph or whatever then you know yeah but it's i mean it should you know error out gracefully there and rather than just shutting down your entire operation and making you restart it should yeah this next one is m again about the intuitive nature similarly we we spoke about the flex attrib flex style properties only really showing when you're dealing with a flex element and grid and all the rest of it this one's around being able to place html inside of so you know for those learning html you cannot put an li outside of anything other than a ul or li sorry ul or ol meaning it's a unordered list or a list so uh pine grove is able to just let me drag that li wherever the hell i want and create all sorts of uh chaos um right i think that's maybe and i don't know if you have an answer to that but that's maybe another level of intuitiveness that that i would expect um pine grow to help me out on yeah i i don't have uh you know any sort of canned response to that um i i just uh i think the um the the parser within pinegrow i think does a fairly good job of checking for blatant html error like unclosed tags or um yeah things like that i i must admit i don't uh fully i haven't fully dug into the parsha code well enough to see could we add on that extra layer of at least i know in some cases it does but in other cases it doesn't an error message saying this is not legal you know according to spec this is not legal you know that that might definitely be something that we could do some improvement on um yeah and it's it's something that i think we'd have to look into a little bit more closely i have to admit that for plain html i would like to see you know rather than just like an li element well rather than just i'd like to see the draggable blocks of code be a little bit more expansive i think they're sometimes a little bit simpler like like you said if you drag a you know an ol or a ul over you're going to want an li in there and i think in in some of those instances that that just isn't true you can drag that ul over but it doesn't have anything in it um and so i think there's there's definitely room for improvement uh within within our plain html elements and templates yeah yeah and you're right and thinking back to webflow um when you create a list it creates those items for you because that's i mean creates three sometimes you don't want three but it creates those for you maybe it's i in my mind i'm visualizing it as like um in levels of intuitiveness one step would be sort of not letting you put an ally in there the second level would actually be well creating those element allies for you and then the third level would be just to the extent of webflow where it just literally creates a lot for you you know and and i don't think pine grove would ever be a level three this is my terminology that i'm just making up yeah as we talk about but you know what i mean and maybe the maybe pine grove would nest might dance around a level one or level two intuitiveness um yeah i have to say just i mean completely separate from the the the actual pine growth app um as i said i'm you know sort of a i do software development and one thing i i wrestled with this exact thing of level one level two level three i put together a plug-in that brings another framework into pinegrow ui kit and you know i elected very much to so this is sort of an open framework uh sort of open open source framework there we go um i elected to basically use their examples from their documentation page which in that case they're mostly going to be as you describe it's sort of a a level three very sort of opinionated so when you drag that list it's already got their three tops plus maybe even a divider and a you know fourth item or something um so that's that's the decision i made there so far with with pinegrow it's been sort of on the other end the level one yeah you know i don't know if that's that's necessarily going to change or um we haven't haven't really received a lot of feedback on that having said that a lot a lot awful lot of people use either bootstrap or tailwind interesting interesting yeah so what are they they're dragging in blocks they're dragging in pre-created sort of elements and stuff like that see yeah yeah or using sort of the other the other component tabs within that library to to bring in sort of more complete elements as opposed to the basic html yeah i'm on expert mode i guess free form expert mode yeah um i can foresee uh an interesting discussion if that does you know enter the world of pine grove being um not not even the word you used was um opinionated um but to spec like this idea of only dragging in allies to ols or um ul's um i can foresee an interesting discussion around form elements because i mean react um and all these kind of frameworks um they they said they they allow um you to build user interfaces i mean a plain html user interface is probably not the most efficient way to do things i'm just thinking off the top of my head but i'm thinking of like a dashboard imagine i'll log in with a dashboard and you've got lots of drop downs you've got lots of like button presses i mean if pine go right you've got lots of form elements that aren't technically i mean technically you would have a form wrapping around the whole page to be able to right so form elements should only go in a form right that's the spec but with these new kind of applications again maybe it's maybe this is only something that is enabled in the angularjs section of uh the template of pine grove um but that i think that would be that's an interesting um decision that pine guy would have to make because it's like well do we allow form elements to be placed outside of forms i mean buttons can be placed outside of forms but um i'm just foreseeing an an interesting debate whether if that you know if this this opinionated approach does come to fruition that that that would be uh a discussion i can imagine um this was i noticed in my css there were three hero classes created um i now know why uh well actually i don't remember specifically in that scenario but i now know how i could probably recreate three hero classes and that to be written in the in the css file uh if i create another hero class here um you know it doesn't if i say create it doesn't automatically take me to the one that's already been created why i'm able to create two hero classes there and and then why the parser then isn't cleaning those up even if i do have it wise and then cleaning up um that's that's the problem i encountered uh what was your response to that so this is a little bit uh because a pine grow likes to again give you sort of the ability to work through things how you want to work through so if you go ahead and yeah go ahead and make another hero class the thing that you can do now is you can differentiate that hero class from your others by going down to the visual editor and then below the selector and media query in the visual editor there's another button called media query so now if you click on that you can now assign whatever breakpoint you want to that particular instance of the hero class rule yeah and so now it's going to drop out because maybe you're well i guess you are on the right side screen but it would drop out if you weren't on the right side screen it wouldn't be shown in the active css rules yeah i don't have any css on there that's why i would done anyway but i get what you're saying okay so that's that's the way so you can you can create the media query either through the ellipsis that's to the right of the create um when you're when you're actually making the class so there's a media query button there uh just up yeah or you can add it afterwards by you know duplicate the rule and add it but the one thing that yeah i uh i actually submitted um on the slack channel my ideas about this because i i do notice that people have this problem you know i'd much rather see rather than you having to duplicate or create another class and then add the media query i'd prefer to see that if you have the existing class selected and then down in the visual editor click on add media query that it would automatically duplicate it for you for me that's a much more intuitive workflow but right now the way the way it works is you can duplicate your rule or you know create a create a duplicate rule um doesn't necessarily have to have all the same uh property values underneath and then add the media query to it and i totally get that i mean like there'll be times where i you know normally very early on in a project i must admit but there are times where i create something and i realize i'm creating the desktop style and i want this to be a mobile first application so i've created all these desktop styles in the mobile so then why not just be able to say oh all that add it in a media query so i can kind of see why that is and and that makes perfect sense as a as a as a workflow um so then the question does uh well i've don't think i've ever used any kind of export feature or anything like that i don't i don't know if you have an export but is there a process that pinegrow has where you clean up then once you've if you click the export button i don't know if i'm over simplifying so there's there i understand i have passing knowledge of web flow um so so pine grows generating you know straightforward css straightforward html um separate files just like you would if you were coding out of any ide um so the only way that or the only uh time that pine grow uh does sort of a cleanup for you is if you're using a preprocessor so either sas or less which you can do from within pine grow then within the support there's a settings menu that allows you to specify which browsers you wanted to um you know uh prefix for if you need to and also does some cleanup but uh again a lot of times and and this is something i've addressed because i see users uh struggling with it uh with an independent plug-in but really that this company line is that you probably should be using some kind of post css or gulp or something like that to go ahead and when your project's done go ahead and put it through that that that whole process to you know clean up minify uh combine sheets things like that um i get it as you would on a you know hard-coded project you you know you're not always going to know that you're creating uh you've already created a class and so a developer would naturally type out you know whatever so yeah a preprocessor would um does so one of the things that i that just thinking about it um that i should interject is that uh tailwind in their newest version just introduced something called jit so just in time or something which basically is a task runner that cleans everything up prunes out unused classes things like that that's currently being integrated into pine grow so that'll be an instance where you're not really using you know a preprocessor so to speak uh but your end product will be cleaned up and m reduced in size from things that you're not using yeah yeah that'd be interesting and and like i'm i haven't explored too much the sass and the less stuff i i i noticed it was a kind of hack to get um uh prefixes on certain stylings and things like that so i played around with it and um and it worked right um so i've yet to venture into the world of that that preprocessor or the j just in time um processor so yeah i haven't got much uh comment on that but it does sound um what i don't know how how does it do it like if it's not a pre-processor is it a is it a javascript post thing or like it's you know yeah i mean so i so that are you talking about the jit or just uh the jit is oh gosh i was i was even reading about this and now it's it's basically it's based off it's based off of post css um so it's it's in in the context of pine grow it's run on the node background um and it's all javascript uh that that is used to okay first process um but i uh some of the details i'm definitely missing yeah no worries um i think i demonstrated this to you and i'm gonna have to put my mic down a little bit so if i type actually flex would be a terrible one but if i was to type in something with just one result if inline flex wasn't there to me the blue looks like it's highlighted yeah um actually let's let's maybe if you if you hover it turns into a darker blue darker blue right but i agree with you yeah what would be okay the other the other thing that i think you brought up is that i i think you brought this up is that if you start typing you'll suddenly get like the the drop down will reduce down in choices to like only one that can match what you've typed even if you haven't typed the whole thing but then at that point if you hit return it doesn't fill in the whole thing so like if you were to type you know delete back a couple yeah so so yeah if i was to hit enter right now what i expected it would say stat um and yeah we've been we've actually been talking a lot on the slack channel about the best way that we think to handle it what's the most intuitive um do you need a darker blue highlighting to appear once you've typed enough to match one of them so you can just hit tab does it make sense if there's only one choice like this that you would then hit return um we've been been having some some discussions because yeah you brought up something that you know that's kind of low hanging fruit yeah and i think would make the user experience a lot better yeah um uh google suite do it quite nicely they give you like a faded out version of the rest of the word and i think now they they've probably because i noticed it just the other day because this feature has been out for a couple of years now this auto filling thing if you're on a google doc they actually add like a little tab um uh icon to know that if you press tab right now it would fill in the rest that's i only saw that just last week and i wonder and i wonder if they've received user issues around that feature that people aren't engaging with the autofill as much as they i mean once i saw i was latching on to it you know i i need to press tab or whatever um but maybe there's some maybe there's some inspiration or some learning that can be done the way the google are doing it but um it would it would be nice like again even if i don't know my my suggestion was which seems a bit naive now we've spoken about it just briefly is that all of these drop downs you know they're a they're a gray or they're they're just a different color than blue so then blue is the selection color blue is like but i i think there are probably better ways to solve that um but okay so it sounds good it sounds like you're you're contemplating what you can be doing there just to be a bit more intuitive so yeah i like that idea of having the tab icon show up yeah like a grayed out tab icon at the end or yeah it could look nice in this interface as well yeah exactly now again this is another one of my crappy notes but inherited style indicator oh i know what this is do do you know what this is i do i do so so basically you want to be able to know that if you have um a child element selected you want to know what parents are kind of bringing styling on board so what styling is on the main that's sort of contributing to that hero content right so if i was to say here um and i was to select maybe a okay yeah so i've got a white selected if i was to go to the span right now and went to color i would i would see like a grayed out just gently something to suggest this is inheriting a white color um is there any talks on that that you guys are looking into or yeah there there has been talk again i hate i hate the whole thing proof is in the pudding yep we've got sprinkles coming um but yeah this is something that match has been working on along with you know his updated uh visual editor display um you know first i was i was more thinking in terms of when you add a class being able to see what else on the pages is impacted and that definitely is there um but yeah i think it's i think it's pretty reasonable to be able to see where a particular style that you can't quite figure out like where the heck is this coming from um to be able to see that visually is it would be a really nice addition and that's something he's definitely working on because interestingly i think this goes back to one of my earlier points around um decluttering and this will make sense in just a second um i'm seeing a lot of text boxes right in in that user interface there and um if if i've seen one even if it again if it's like i i'm thinking back to webflow and and they do some great things but they do they do some not so great things so i don't want to say that pygo needs to abs at all become web flow but the learning would be that i think they give you some indication when something is inheriting whether it's um maybe it's more explicit like you're i i don't know i forget i haven't used a lot of it but just to if if i was to see a color there that's maybe drop back in color or something my brain is kind of telling me i can remove that worry or you know i don't know it sort of feels like my brain would would either know to lock on to that because that's the one that is filled or it knows to kind of ignore it i'm yeah i'm talking psychological things right now yeah so so actually we've gotten some user feedback sort of about this feature and and more specifically um when you have some kind of media query selected so if you have your hero class at a different media query people were saying okay i want to know that if i'm doing whatever mobile first right that i have a certain width coming over that is something i'm going to want to change yeah the color i'm not going to care to change so i can see okay it's already set i don't have to worry about it so you know connection between your different media queries to know what is set at a different break point versus so that you might want to address it like oh i didn't realize on that break point i had you know decreased my font size or something um that's the other thing that that we've been sort of looking at like how how to best telegraph because of course if you have multiple break points you know do you have to harvest across all of them yeah i guess you do maybe or do you only harvest the ones that are maybe going to apply to the it gets a little complicated i guess it comes down to specificity really but uh it's that sounds like a brilliant um use case for having knowing that it's being inherited or it's almost like a warning in some ways you know yeah this is a specific comment around a specific time stamp why mobile style disappeared at 57 minutes do you have a did you have a response to this one oh cool yeah so so if you have go ahead and open up like a different screen a second screen just by clicking at the top of the page view this one here yeah so one of the things that that people so the there's a little paintbrush to the right side there and i think that very easily gets ticked uh so if you go up to the to the right side of the page view of the extra small page view this thing yep yeah so that states that only active rules that are active for that screen will show up whereas if you tick the left one uh above for the large screen or whatever size that is only active rules for that one will apply and people get tripped up because you can select items from either page view and it's not necessarily going to change that paintbrush and so people sometimes get tripped up with wait which which one is the styling which one is the element sometimes yeah and that's that's something that we've gotten user feedback on but we we're still not sure what is a better user experience or better indicator i don't know if changing that paint brush to green some more visually striking color that says i am the one to go um but i it seemed like in watching your video that that's what had happened is that something got selected that changed the paintbrush but made you think you were still working on the oval size because the other thing and i'm fascinated by ux and and things like that because the other thing to bear in mind if you were to you know obviously this is talking about infinite budgets and infinite staff but what would be interesting is to match what the user where the user is looking and you know because someone i touch type so i don't look at the keyboard am i looking at my design or am i looking at the style panel and what you know give me a hundred um 100 scenarios where i make that mistake where am i looking to where that where the mistake is made um is it is that occurring when i'm looking at the style panel down here and that's when that's when the confusion starts so maybe the ui change or the ui kind of suggestion needs to happen in the style panel because yeah you know if i'm looking at this the the window when the mistake happens then the ui change needs to happen in the ui window uh sorry in the in the uh preview window or something like that but that's just me dreaming and um no no that's that's a good point actually can you do me a favor because i've never actually done this can you click on the extra small paintbrush i just want to see what happens to the visual editor okay it doesn't it i don't know how helpful it would be but to have that at the very top where it says you know it gives you that media query scroll back up the visual editor you know right below there i i don't know if you have a style selected if the break point will appear there the only problem that i have with that though is you can easily scroll that out of view so even if that changes you're still not going to pick up on that so i mean you've got obviously something here but yeah yeah yeah then you're cluttering aren't you and it's just yeah yeah um but that makes sense and and yeah maybe it's yeah it's uh it would be interesting to know how to solve that again these are just some some of these things are our ui sort of tweaks and issues and um so this final one then so this is me save i i i think i had some trouble again another embarrassing moment where i had trouble saving my project i didn't know where that thing was saved to so okay um retracing my steps i think i saved this just blindly saving it i don't think i ever chose a folder i don't know why it ended up in the template folder but whatever i think i think the problem i had was i saved my project couldn't find where it was so i was like okay i'm just going to save it again and then i put it in another folder and i think that just saves the html file or something like that yeah and i sort of wish there was a collect all files collect everything and put it to where i'm saving it so yeah similar to after effects i think after effects does that yeah i i don't know if there's any thoughts or there hasn't been really any discussion in that way the one thing there has been discussion about is um one thing that's sort of i don't know user user interface standard that isn't really in pine grove is you don't have a good way for the project panel to go ahead and see the the breadcrumbs of where things are saved so you can see the the the parent folder but you can't sort of like click on the parent folder to figure out where that parent folder is saved yeah and so there's been discussion of putting in a better breadcrumb system for you know where files are saved i don't think we've really talked about being able to retrieve and relocate files necessarily yeah but you know having a little bit better uh file save interface would would probably be better i mean again i'm not an app builder or anything like that but why why have we got file edit page why are these in the app window um because i feel like if you were to use the native os x or the os um system to do file and all the rest of it that you would get that breadcrumb because that's that's in the native save dialogue i think you might have to turn it on i'm not too sure but um just out of curiosity why are these why are these menu items in the in the window it's just a function of nwjs and a function of how to sort of uh easily build out that that application so okay um nwjs and and such is going to require a sort of an extra layer in order to put stuff up in that that top menu top menu bar if you look i mean basically the the page you're looking at right now is a web page right so each of those items along the top the drop down menus are just exactly that drop down menus on a web page so if you were to open a dev tools you would see that each of those are just a bootstrap five uh bootstrap four bootstrap three one of the bootstraps um just a bootstrap nav component uh with each of those those items um so basically it's just a it's just a function of how uh nwjs's is operating that sort of made those menus where they are got you which actually is a really interesting segue to another point that i was discussing with emmanuel who was uh forget the nickname uh the real bastique yeah i i discussed with him a web editor and maybe i've missed the boat or something but you mentioned this is just a essentially a website that we're looking into do pine grow have or have in the pipeline any kind of web editor where you can go to app.pinego.com and then you can access your website through that to my knowledge no um i i don't believe so the closest thing that we sort of have for that is if you notice from when you're creating a new uh on the the sort of home screen like if you close this project out there's actually i don't know how to do that actually without file and then close project up a little bit close project there we go um i don't what i don't want to save there we go yep so from this page you can see the third icon over the third big icon in sort of the gray area is open url that allows you to open any site you want and basically it will then allow you to do local edits and saves and then re-upload that to whatever site uh you want that to go to so there's there's some limitations it's better there's another another pine grove product called snapshot that allows you to to basically clone all the resources of a page this one sort of lets you get the main html and css resources i don't think it saves down like the javascript and and uh some other things or or the images um but it it basically actually might do the images it allows you to basically recreate a local version of your web page edit it and then you know you can push those those changes up to your website using an ftp or you know however you normally populate your your hosting so there is that but it but there isn't a online live sort of uh site editor yeah because emmanuel had had some good responses and and some valid responses and and ultimately it comes down to the product vision and the statement that pinegrow wants to make and and ultimately it's a different tool to web flow um i did i did mention around uh you know design tools such as sketch um were king they were absolutely they were cream of the crop when it comes to design um but in in the new kind of covered world it's they've lost a huge amount of market share and and and people have just latched on to figma because it's collaborative it's online i don't need someone to i mean design is different because it deals with files but i don't need someone to own sketch to view my figma project for instance or maybe make edits or whatever and i just feel like it's a direction that the world is going into and whether and it's still an open question it's still not a um it's probably not an easy answer or an easy solution but how how web flow sorry pine grow might might lend itself to to submit into that the kind of the way the world is while maintaining their um their product vision you know yeah and doing what it does best and and still being able to for you to work with actual files as opposed to web flow being completely black boxed you don't know what it's doing how it's doing it you can't do any sort of server manipulation you know how all that plays together is an interesting thing so do i mean do you know if there's anything regarding the web editor or any considerations towards it i i don't believe so as as you said i think you know one of the uh things that we sort of tout about pine grove is the fact that you don't necessarily have to be attached to any kind of internet connection to be able to do things i don't know if sort of a hybrid where you know you can both work offline or work online could easily be done um i i don't see that as a priority in the the whole development but i i do appreciate you know what you're saying that it would be nice to to maybe have easier ways to collaborate on a single project um there's i i think that's a bit too in-depth i mean there are some ways that you can facilitate that but they're they're a little bit complex just dropping back for for one second though the one thing that i do like and again this was sort of how i was brought on i do like the fact that with pine grow you can fairly easily if you know any javascript really extend the heck out of it so you can really easily you know if you're within an agency you can really easily set up some plugins that you know are going to push your pages on a schedule on a demand whatever up to a central server that you know other people working so you can set up your own versioning system in other words you can do things like that it's it's you know like i said if if you know some javascript it's it's not it's a really uh good environment to extend um so i think you know that's that's an area that i think we have to explore a little bit more and you know really let people know about um yeah i mean what i was going to say as well is that a git is obviously um the de facto thing when sketch was you know figma was sorry figma was kind of coming in i know my my girlfriend used abstract she was a sketch user um use abstract and that was version control for design software figment then just completely eradicated all that need for any kind of version control but for code which makes way more sense for code coders and developers and engineers they're using git version control system and to your point around extending it where if you've got a javascript developer that's able to build a plug-in to do all that well they're probably able to use git anyway so maybe maybe it's uh maybe it's a but but if you're yeah but if you're in an agency where you have five designers and one back-end guy yeah that back-end guy can say okay look all of you guys now i've implemented this function just load your plug-in click up here version you know version away so so that's sort of where we see that section of it hopefully going yeah it's a little bit more attraction that way yeah that would be really interesting because i would might i was going to ask a question do does pine grow have any integration with um git like like vs code would do it tells you what branch you're on it you know can do all that kind of so so uh so the the answer is no in a way um the one thing that pine grove does have are uh plug-ins already that allow it to uh interface with visual studio code uh and uh with adam so you can actually uh go ahead hook your page hook your project up to either of those make changes within you know that external code editor and it'll show up fairly live uh live in the pine grove editor at the same time and so then one thing that you can do is is step back and and go ahead and use the the versioning that's within those two yeah um shameless plug that you can edit out of the uh edit out of of your your show is right now i sort of inspired by you um i've started live coding and what i selected to live code is actually a github interface using the github api so that you don't have to leave pine grow you can just go ahead there'll be a github menu that you can create a repo push to repo things like that not supported not supported by the official pine grow team just little me uh putting this together and sort of showing people live code at the same time as i bumble my way yeah yeah uh putting this particular plugin in um that was that was brilliant and so interesting it was great to just nerd out on a bunch of different things and get some stuff answered and um just try and bumble our way through through an interesting conversation it was really really yeah it was enjoyable on this end as well um thanks everyone for tuning in and um i'll i'll see you next time on stream [Music] you

Channel: Samuel Gregory

Views: 264

Keywords: Webflow, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, development, fundamentals, website, code, learn, coding, webflow, websites, nocode, accessibility, seo, Learn, html, web fundamentals, webflow masterclass, Pinegrow, 100daysofnocode

Id: Bck6gyqH_f0

Length: 95min 11sec (5711 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 15 2021