Brexit Debate: A Very British Coup?

tonight is it breaks it hanging in the balance or democracy itself a coup or a promise delivered MPs return tomorrow with Boris Johnson intending to suspend Parliament for five weeks will the opposition unite to take control and block a No Deal brexit or are we heading for a snap general election before October 31st tonight a hundred people and a panel of politicians from across the spectrum debate the way forward welcome to the channel four brexit debate [Music] good evening Boris Johnson stood on the steps of Downing Street tonight and said he doesn't want a general election but he's staring at possible defeat tomorrow as critics gang up to stop No Deal he insists there is no way he will ask Brussels for another delay so a snap election within six weeks could be his only way to deliver brexit by the end of October the government have refused our invitation to join our panel tonight but we do have two politicians in favor of going ahead with no deal and two who are doing all they can to stop it but before we hear from them let's go first to our audience now Boris Johnson says he doesn't want an election and nor do you so is he right do you want an election hands up what do you think yes gentlemen along I don't think general election is really gonna solve anything I think that we're looking at a political spectrum which is even more split than it was at the last election we've got the Lib Dems pulling labour food from the remains side and the brexit party putting the Conservatives on the leave side and I think in that situation is going to become even more fragmented and then we're going to be and we're going to end up in the same situation we are now just even worse you want an election I totally agree with that gentleman's just said it doesn't go far enough it's a step in the right direction but ultimately it probably won't solve anything and will be left in the same position with nobody really knowing what's happening with brexit and the gentleman next to me yeah so I don't see the point of a Joe election I vote for brexit three years ago and vote for parties that promise to to deliver on brexit and general extra vote for the brexit party European elections how many times we have to vote before we can deliver a small very skeptical does anybody think does anybody think a break an election is the answer is there's the right thing to do yes there's lady there on the back we need an election because we had treasom a who no one voted for we've got Boris Johnson who no one's had the opportunity to vote for and we've got a non democratic brexit because and there was never ever no deal on the table when I was asked to vote back in 2016 it was vote for you or vote to leave no one said vote for No Deal it's not Democratic do you want to just reply properly don't shout out because then we'll get my point I'm sure yeah we are not working we all know what we voted for the question was do we stay or do we leave you don't want an election after we've left right no without a deal fine well do join the discussion on twitter using the hashtag c for BRICS it's debate supporting Boris Johnson tonight on our panel is the former cabinet minister and veteran Euroskeptic John redwood from Labour Clive Lewis a shadow Treasury Minister Ian Blackford is leader of the third biggest party in Westminster the SNP and Alex Phillips is a newly elected member of the European Parliament for Nigel Farage's brexit party well you were there at Downing Street today in the Rose Garden as Boris Johnson was supposed to be threatening your colleagues with deselection if they don't back in tomorrow what happened and what did he mean tonight when he said he doesn't want an election but he meant exactly what he said he believes it's the duty of this Parliament elected in 2017 to deliver on the brexit promise the ladies wrong to say nobody voted for mrs. may mrs. may led the Conservatives we got very large number of people voting first and became by far and away the biggest party in the parliament the second biggest party in the parliament the Labour Party also campaigned in that election to deliver brexit this Parliament needs to deliver it the Prime Minister is giving the Parliament another opportunity to deliver brexit as we should do right but he's threatening an election he threatened nobody tonight in his speech shouldn't they in the Rose Garden he called on all conservatives to be of goodwill and to back what the government is trying to do leaving without a deal if that's what we have to do trying to maximise the pressure on our European partners to try and get a deal which is better than leaving without a deal right but all all the papers all the journalists are being briefed that if you lose tomorrow then Boris Johnson is going to go for a snap general election on October the 14th is that what you understood from being in Downing Street smart no the opposite you correctly reported it earlier when you said that the Prime Minister said to the assembled MPs with television cameras present that he didn't want an early election but of course but if you absolutely rule one out because if a majority emerged in Parliament to twice vote down the government on a confidence vote then they would need to be a general election but we think that is unlikely the Prime Minister has made it very clear he doesn't want it he wants Parliament to do the decent thing implement the wishes of the British people and get this behind us or so many other things that we need to be talking about all the country will come on schools and hospitals and the economy Clive Lewis what do you take from tonight what is Boris Johnson's plan well from this thing to that I could hear that stop the coup demonstrates in the background over Boris Johnson which I think tells you so much about where we are in politics at the moment democracy is being threatened by a government that is meant to be ruled by the consent of the public the consent consent public consent doesn't mean that you agree with the government it means that you expect your government to operate by the rules of democracy which this government clearly isn't doing we can come on to that in a bit but I thought this was this was a threat to his MPs to get into line I'm quite happy for the Conservative Party to tear itself apart I know that come tomorrow when we go back to Parliament the Labour Party will do what is in the best and in the national interest to ensure that we do not leave without a deal that is our priority that is what we will make sure happens if we can empower working with other political parties that don't want to see No Deal and RF for our bricks it our manifesto which mentioned brexit which talked about wrecks it never mentioned a No Deal bricks it that was not there I didn't stand on that manifesto no labour politician didn't know Labour politician ever would write but do you believe you're going to win to stop No Deal tomorrow and therefore trigger a general election I think looking at the numbers there's a good chance that we could stop no deal the legislation has now been put down we've seen that out today I think there's every chance given the number of conservative MPs who are saying that they will put country before party at last it's possible that we may see the government defeated and no deal taken off the table but there was still lots of caveat to that because obviously we don't have a written constitution and there are certain things that the executive can do even if that legislation is passed so there's there's a lot to see what will happen Alex Phillips how did you read what Boris Johnson said tonight he was a bit of a damp squib wasn't it I mean I was there sitting in the back of the car coming here tuning in waiting for big announcements on something thinking oh gosh is the mailbox going to come back but actually he just repeated things he said already and thinks he's got to keep affirming this is the Boris Johnson playbook where he has to demonstrate to people he is committed to delivering brexit I believe he actually is he was in the vote leave campaign I have no reason to doubt him but he is having to frame this as Parliament versus the people because that's what it has become we had a democratic exercise three years ago arguably one of the largest in this nation's history that was a form of direct democracy the people spoke and for three years three years that has now been delayed it's been thwarted people trying to reverse it in Parliament the people who don't resent the citizens of the UK who voted to leave I mean you can deliver this by just packing up Cohn and telling all the brexit party supporters to back the concern oh I see no actually if you do that you will get the No Deal breaks that you want at the end of October I think that that that's the kind of creative interpretation of where we are at because actually I think Boris Johnson is gunning for and he keeps saying he's gunning for a deal now in the time period we have left that means dusting off the withdrawal agreements which I think John and I would both agree isn't leaving the EU it's subjugation for Futurity under various aspects of EU control and actually I just want to say the gentleman over here he made me think while I was sitting here waiting to have my turn always we keep hearing people didn't know what they were voting for we didn't vote for No Deal etc etc what this is a people who voted remained telling brexit ears they didn't know what they voted for we wanted to leave the single market the customs union and the jurisdiction of the ECJ is not the restoral agreement [Applause] hold on a second don't call out I'm invited are you preparing for your lecture yes we are I think the most important thing that Parliament's got to do tomorrow to use the phrases take back control let's remember members of parliament are there to represent their constituents and what we face in the 31st of October is a new deal brexit that which threaten jobs would put people on the door threatened the supply of food and medicines and even water supply which is enly yello-ha I did call just hang on I did call on you before and I will bring you in later but please don't call out so we can all hear related that what's happened over the course of the last few weeks that parliamentarians across party including a number of conservatives have acted together in our collective national interest to stop that No Deal tomorrow is a day that I'm going to be very very proud of we can make sure that we push back the day of leaving the European Union into next year then yes let's have an election because the fact of the matter is we've got Boris Johnson who is behaving in an undemocratic fashion he's seeking to close down Parliament he's gone to the Queen on the votes of three members of the Privy Council that he's chosen the longest prorogation of parliament that we've ever seen simply to stop Parliament doing its job but you want some in return the result of the reference I don't know I am a Scot this is undemocratic I am a Scottish MP and let's not forget we had a referendum on independence in 2014 and we were told if we stayed in the in the UK that arises EU citizens would be respected the people of Scotland voted by 62% to stay in the European Union we will not be dragged out of the European Union against the wishes of the Scottish people that's absolutely crystal clear and I think even more so now it is obvious that Boris Johnson is going to drive us out it's going to be devastating to jobs in Scotland and the people of Scotland deserve the right to have a say on their future and remain as a European country that's a debate that we're having in Scotland we'll come back to this whole Factory [Music] but this whole sequence of events kicked off with last week's announcement the Parliament would be probed or shut down for five weeks so let's have a question from Kate Putnam Kate what is more undemocratic suspending Parliament or reneging the referendum result closes we have in a parliamentary democracy and we don't have a written constitution which I think people are now beginning to understand is quite a problem and I personally don't think that brexit in and of itself is its own cause it's a symptom of a broken political system a broken economic system and I would say that if you look throughout history you can see where politicians leaders will use plebiscites or referendum take that result and do with it as they wish they will use that result to do whatever it is that they want and I think that's what we're seeing here we have a parliamentary democracy and we also have the result of that referendum Parliament has spent three years trying to ensure that that referendum was enacted upon that was the the consultation that took place it was to inform Parliament on what to do now I I personally in 2016 I went around to my constituency to the strongest remain parts and I spoke to my constituents and the vast majority of those constituents said you know what we lost we now need to see brexit happen but one that protects jobs the environment and the economy she's voting 50 no I didn't vote for article 50 I didn't vote for article 50 and I tell you why because like most of my constituents trees amaze deal that was on the table back in 2017 the article 50 terms and conditions I could see like millions of other people that this was not going to work and that's what's happened the Conservative Party hasn't put the national interest first it's put its own party political interest first every time and that's what Labour hasn't been able to the poor what's worse but I think it's very clear that not honoring the referendum would be a disaster for our democracy and very bad for our Parliament because Parliament solemnly agreed to hold a referendum and said in terms that we the people would make the decision not that it was advisory and Labour spokesman tonight has a very selective memory of the Labour manifesto in 2017 as well because that very clearly not only said would they want to assist brexit but it set out a very interesting overseas trade policy for example which clearly meant they had in mind in those days leaving the customs union as well as the rest of the EU which is what mostly voters had in mind as well there is nothing undemocratic about what the browser is doing over the timetable for Parliament indeed before mr. Blair a parliament never met in September at all and what this Prime Minister is doing is observing the usual tradition that we have a three week break for conference because MPs like to quite often go after their party conferences and don't want to have to be dragged back for votes or debates they need to participate in and then we will have a short break as we usually do once a year when you prepare for a Queen's speech and there is plenty of time for Parliament to go all over the arguments about brexit yet again I don't suppose we hear anything else apart from them all of this week yet again we've had three years of nothing else and then there'll be another fortnight before we leave the European Union when again they can do whatever they like there's a completely democratic process so this is just a sort of a happy coincidence it's part of missed doing anything it's just false that there's something wrong going on here Parliament has had three years which it's almost entirely given over to debating and voting and it is twice past important legislation to say we are leaving prime minister says Parliament ought to honor its own statutes if Parliament wants to change its mind it still got quite a few debating days ya can say something about it on the end there one last week yeah well mister it would clearly thinks like mr. Johnson that we're complete idiots and they can just take us for a complete right shortly ahead of this supposedly binding referendum your poster bully Nigel Farage said if this results in a narrow victory four remain of the order of 52 to 48 that will not solve anything and the whole thing will have to be run again so it suits you to go with the referendum and truces sacrosanct when it's in your interest and it keeps used prying eyes out of tax havens we know what the real reason is for brixi we do we're not idiots and so if it was a narrow victory for leave how is it such a holy and important and binding referendum result because we made a solemn promise Parliament and government that we would all know the result that the people were deciding and as a very young man one of the first folks I ever cast was in a European referendum when I was on the losing side and I and people like me who voted then not to stay in the European Economic Community always accepted the verdict and we didn't expect our Parliament to turn tear up the verdict or try and find some compromise between our position and theirs we knew we'd lost and we accepted the democratic verdict in Blackford let's come back to the question what's more undemocratic suspending Parliament or reneging the referendum result well the simple fact of the matter is Boris Johnson is behaving like a tin pot dictator he's a coward and he was running away from Parliament being given the opportunity to legislate to start a new deal and he's been caught out because we can legislate to say that he wanted to go to the country to have a general election this has been his golden brown moment and he's flunked er let's make sure that we remove that cliff edge we remove the threat of New Deal at the end of October let's have an election let's send a message to Boris Johnson okay first of all not want to say like an academic but democracy means power of the people Parliament is part of democracy it is an apparatus for delivering that and we were given the opportunity for one of the first time first time in my lifetime to actually take part in well actually no apart from the one about whether he wanted a new system of PR or something other than first part the post but it's very rare we as the British public get to actually have our say in direct democracy and we did that that is the very meaning of democracy and the fact that it hasn't been delivered I think even every remain in their heart of hearts even if they're very disappointed by that result needs to acknowledge that it happened this gentleman here who is saying something or the other that Nigel Farage said about not respecting results as his press officer for 10 years and that's nothing I ever came across so I'm glad that you seem to know who that woman at greater than I do he did say that he would find time well there's one thing about fighting on there's a different thing about there's a different thing about representative respecting a result I mean remain as can fight on once we leave the EU to rejoin as much as they want in the same way that if Scotland after having one referendum wants to try for another independence referendum fine that is democracy but to have a result and then not even put that result into practice it's the very negation of democracy it makes the whole system futile article 50 now all the key thing is article 50 this article 50 that crashing out without a deal what gets what article 50 is EU legislation the remainders don't like that bit of EU legislation supremacy do they they don't like the fact that article 50 has to have an end date by which it is an active in section one of the inconvenience were have to choose to activate article 50 and I'm glad that Clyde and I and certainly all the SNP MPs didn't because we're simply not you know that the whole thing about these the brexit ears is this simply good care about the economic damage which [Applause] no job worth the price of the ideology of the brakes of Tears let me let me get a I mean lots of hands shooting up gentlemen there in the in the blue shirt yeah I think yes there it is democracy but we've got a parliamentary democracy it's where people are elected to represent their constituents in Parliament when you prorogue Parliament who shut it down totally what there's no work on any legislation there's no accountability or scrutiny of the decisions of ministers this is just a cowardly attempt to try and avoid scrutiny at a crucial time okay in our country's history so I have a question mr. Blackford so thought the SNP one of the things that would be a big winner is if there was a No Deal leaving scenario right it would give you guys the opportunity to have your second referendum which you want would you think you will win then you could leave then you can rejoin the European Union surely No Deal brexit is in your best interest no it's not because in the interim people in Scotland are going to lose their job when the government's talked about slaughtering lambs because there will be no market there'd be no export market this is extraordinary the impact annuity obrecht's it would have I don't want it sir when the people are just saying that's no it's not nonsense because the government the government's but I want Scotland to become independent based on the future of a prosperous and just Scotland but I don't want to do on the backs of Anor do Brett said there's going to send people into poverty the simple fact of the matter is people are going to lose their jobs unemployment is simply not a price worth paying I don't want people to lose their jobs in Bristol they any more than I want people to lose jobs in Bakke and Scotland okay that's why I work with Clive and others to make sure that we don't have this economic madness there's active economic self-harm that would happen with an audio breaks which people were not asked to vote on in the referendum they weren't he say from that concordance oh but believe me in the country surely it would make more sense to wait until the the middle of October when there has been work to be done to see what the terms of any deal might be before completely trashing the possibility of getting any deal at all which may then subsequently support Scotland well the simple factors I'm at the point I'm gonna make here now is I find it incredulous that in the 21st century people like myself and Ian and members of this audience have to sit here and question whether our own government respects the rule of law that's what this comes down to and Boris Johnson might not be some mighty may or may not be V tin-pot dictator we all fear but what he is doing is setting a precedent for the future where others can come along the people Parliament democratically elected MP don't like what they're saying don't want them to be able to look over what they're doing to scrutinize what they're doing they get rid of them that's what that's what this is the vows and that is wrong gentlemen look so I'm gonna have to ask you to be quiet until I invite you in you keep shouting out you've got to stop John redwood could you answer that at that point you know you've got concern there's a long-standing parliamentarian the precedence being set here a parliament being shut down so it reduces the time for discussion reduces his opportunity to stop No Deal your own colleagues being threatened effectively with deselection losing the whip if they go against the party line a party line that is the opposite of what the party line was before when the people who are in the cabinet defied the party whip I think it's not worrying precedents for democracy I strongly believe in the importance of Parliament and I think I've already dealt with those two points that have been made and I find it very disappointing that the SNP representative just puts out entirely false or unbathed negative forecasts on what might happen to our country we have government thought we had us look I didn't interpret the Treasury let me explain the point that we were given a whole set of bogus short term for about 500,000 or more job losses a big crash in house prices and move into recession as soon as we voted to leave the European Union that was a one to two year forecast all of that was completely untrue have you looked at we now have a reheating today and what's that will now happen if we leave the EU without a deal now of course what we need to be discussing is none of these things we need to be discussing the big world slowdown the manufacturing collapse around the world the fact that our economy like other economies actually needs a boost smell and that is going to be so much easier if we have some of that money back from the European Union where we get all of it back we have deregulate end on our priority to give that boost to the economy and our public services we need to give and a lot of the leaders voted amongst other things to have that money back because they know that our schools our hospitals need it and our economy needs some tax that will become possible last we leave just just interesting term boost to our economy you look at the people who are politically championing brexit by and large people at John redwood Reese mark and others you know no disrespect but I looked at your voting record John over the last 20 or so years you are you wrote the book on NHS privatization one that your party that follow through on your a climate change denier you your voting record is where you hammer the poor every opportunity these the people are driving brexit that's what we're about now tonight Boris Johnson is still insisting that Britain will leave the European Union no ifs no buts on October the 31st but if he's defeated in the House of Commons tomorrow his only way of doing that might be through a general election now before the break we just got on to what the consequences of a No Deal brexit at the end of october would be so let's pursue that more in a question from justine silver in a No Deal scenario how will government ensure that the NHS is not a cavity casualty in fact actually very easily because we'll have full control over what we do to determine things like workers who come into the country we would therefore allow very happy much like we get many workers in the Commonwealth countries who come and contribute to the NHS so we will allow you citizens to do the same and equally can I just say there's been a lot of scare stories around about medicine stockpiling the MHRA is said that it will recognize any European certified medicines it will not block those coming into the UK and in fact the Europeans own Yuri use own medicine Association has actually said that there's 31 medicines out of thousands 31:19 of which are for humans the rest of veterinary that they might worry that there could be circulation problems so when you look at that and those are facts based things I'm not inventing those when you look at that governments are able to manage periods of change many policies that are enacted by governments both geopolitically that affect your country and a managed domestically can be prepared for what we've actually seen is because we've had this frustration of delivering on the results by our Parliament's we've not got down to the nitty-gritty sensible in because the previous governments and the previous Chancellor largely puts a stop on preparations we're actually having to catch up on that now but as far as I am concerned from everything that's been said from Whitehall and things being said across the channel in Brussels both sides and I prepared for a No Deal and believe you me both sides don't want to see a cataclysmic small loads from this it will not happen it's that simple hold on you're not there's no just hang on one second I'll come to you in a second John redwood answer the question how do you stop the NHS being a casualty of a No Deal breaks it we've seen the government's own assessments we've seen the health secretary unable to guarantee that anyone will you know won't doubt the people won't die as a result of a No Deal brexit how are you going to guarantee it is far too pessimistic well let me reject the idea that I've ever favoured privatizing the NHS I've always been a strong supporter as has my party but the principle of free care at the point of need for any individual under the NHS system and we have already shown that there'll be a lot more money going into the NHS which is a generally welcomed phenomenon and that will be easier once we've saved the money we're current contributing to the European Union as we've heard we can make our own decisions about inviting in school people if we need more school people from overseas because we will control our own borders and I've asked question about has any pharmaceutical company on the continent currently supplying the NHS told us it's going to break its contract or refused to send us pharmaceuticals once we've left and I've been assured by the government no there is no such company because of course every pharmaceutical because which is getting stuff into meat but we control the ports and the health secretaries had to lay contingencies to fly in medicines you know on sort of amore it's always wise to have contingencies because you you could under the current regime in the EU have a French strike or something and you need contingencies but I'm absolutely sure that the British government and the ports of Dover and Felixstowe and Harwich and all the others want to facilitate the move and I do not buy this scare story they can just keep the drugs out no I'm deeply worried and one of the things we should be talking about is what's happened to the EU citizens are already here they're our friends our neighbors our partners and so on and many of them are deeply worried they're having to apply for the the rights that they should have automatically to stay here I have had people in tears in my son Julie and the fact that we have not had the welcome for people that we should have but let me give you an example and I want to give you an example of a young vet that I spoke to in poetry in the Isle of Skye she is a student vet and she wants to stay in Scotland but under the rules that the UK government are bringing in she will have to err thirty thousand pounds a year there is no young vet and the Isle of Skye that will be unlike 30,000 pounds a year we will lose out she will lose out and it's a direct consequence of the vindictive nature that this government has towards migration if we lose about an agent in the NHS we need the nurses and the doctors that come from Europe but it's not just the NHS it's an academic community 27% of the academic staff at Emory University are EU citizens and the vice-principal has told me that that talent pool has started to dry up as a dinette concept of everything which has happened over the course of the last three years our public services will suffer or academia will suffer there will be a real threat to our communities that happens as a consequence of this and to blindly ignore it is just simply shameful from the brexit ears and it is because this is simply driven by ideology as about returning time 1950s Imperial Britain turning her back on under EU partners [Applause] and the fact that the brexit ears want to turn them back on that is absolutely shameful I'm a brexit ear I'm also a cancer surgeon in the NHS my father is a doctor that fits limbs on artificial limbs on people have lost limbs in the NHS my sister's a GP my wife is a farm we vote for braixen you don't have to be in the EU to be a doctor or a nurse we can recruit from the 92% of the world that don't live in the Year I wasn't born in the UK in fact I've only naturalized recently down the road from here in the town hall all right but I voted for leave and your backward-looking we're all nostalgic we don't care about other European citizens it's just ridiculous the problem we've had for the last three years is there's been a rearguard action by remainer such as yourself trying to rerun a debate you should have had three years ago and that has undermined our ability as levers and everyone else in this country to protect and promote the rights of other citizens in this country Commonwealth European and everyone else you should be on the same side as us and we should all be fighting for the rights of those people I'm a little bit fed up with listening to politicians talking about I want this I won that withered Labour Party with the Conservatives why don't you all just get together let's get a bunch of good academics together and actually get this thing done and do some action instead of just talking about it for three full years it's just shameful with get on with it if you're in business we just act you've belong ago but he can't we've got a sort of 50-50 split in this audience we've heard a lot from people are saying get on with it and aren't sharing in Blair's concerns who's worried about the consequences of No Deal yes the kind of flippant way Alex you described they're just being a few medicines that might not be available talking you weren't listening though were you before I listened to you before so the few medicines you say flippantly we might there might not be available I am epileptic and I need those medicines so actually this kind of all yeah it's gonna be fine it's just not good enough the point I make to the panel is if a No Deal brexit doesn't matter why are we having to spend two billion pounds in a period of austerity to get ourselves out of the mess we're in I run a business with clients across Europe and they think we are absolutely mad for the decisions that we've taken it is terrible for many businesses and people who don't listen to those point of view simply haven't run a business and know what is involved and it is the opportunity cost of what we're giving you away by this prexy debate because although the economy hasn't gone into recession it could be so much stronger and we could be focusing on many other things if we weren't heading towards this disastrous No Deal outcome I'm a doctor and I've been an academic in Cambridge we already have a massive recruitment crisis caning Workforce Planning in the NHS is awful and I know so many EU doctors who are planning on leaving and academics so I'm really worried about the consequences for the area but it's not just medicine is it it seems like food you know we have Michael Gove going on the television saying there's going to be no shortage of food and then the next day the retailer's coming on and saying well yes there is well I didn't hear main supermarkets saying that I heard representative bodies so-called saying this I have every conference I have every of the supermodel well I have every confidence in our supermarkets I think we have some great businesses please don't that's the point and I listen to them and I do not believe they will have empty shelves I think they have pretty good arrangements for bringing in a empty shell and I said there'd be there be shortages or fresh food you've got to be straight with people understand Why Why should there be any shortages of fresh food because once again it's this category error that remain are making that the UK authorities control the ports that might or might not delay the imports coming in and we've been assured by the government in HMRC that they will not delay things I'm Julie at the ports and that were there any sign that any additional checks are getting in the way they would waive the checks so that they could get the food in because this this food that will be coming in on the first two November after we've left will come from the same sources with the same documentation the same electronic manifests the same trucks sealed and with their reporting systems through computers as the day before and we know they're approved to EU standards so there's absolutely no need to delay the trucks that the border on the first November because we know what's in them electronically and we live in the age of computers so I do not buy the idea food is gonna get caught well we know what the got the leaked document that came out one of the lines that came out from government is that they were confident that people would have the requisite amount of calories so you can make up your calories from quite a very number of sources custard carnation milk tin products but fresh food couldn't be guaranteed now that's not me that's your own civil service that saying that and the reports that they are producing but I just want to come back a second to Alec said which pretty much sounded like her boss Nigel Farage was going to be stood at a poor with his arms open to the Commonwealth now that wasn't what he was saying back in 2016 in fact I remember him quite clearly standing in front of a rather nasty racist poster so if we want to now rewrite history to say that brexit is all about opening the doors to black people across the world fantastic but that I think somehow Nigel Farage you've been very quiet when there are food shortages when the NHS does go to the dogs does go to the walls there will be people in the brexit party and Beyond who will blame it on migrants who will blame it on foreigners who will blame on both same people you've done it before you'll do it again that's what we've seen throughout history and it will happen again so I think we have to be quite clear here they want us to believe that food will be fine that the initial be fine but actually if you look at the NHS already there were tens of thousands of nurses shut there's a short full of tens of thousands of nurses the NHS is struggling as it is at the moment that's before No Deal takes place and that's before and I think No Deal is bad enough as it is before we have to go cap in hand the Donald Trump who wants the NHS how long do you believe the chaos would last in your terms the shortages one day too much I mean I I have no more of an expert than you would ask but what I do know is that when you when you read the documentation yellowhammer and other documents have come out from the civil service that have been out they paint a very grim picture but okay that's not me saying that politicians will get do you believe that's Williams a yellow hammer document it talks about the potential risk to fresh water supplies affecting hundreds of thousands of people now just think about that think about not having water for Edie or two because the simple fact of the matter is that there are treatment facilities for what are the chemicals tend to come from Europe tend to come from France when the government is suggesting that people may not have fresh water supplies what are we doing what are we doing let's talk about you know these potential interruptions that the government's own reports have raised now even the supporters of No Deal brexit most of them accept that there could be some disruption there could be some difficulties how long are you prepared to accept difficulties and disruption yes damp down here on there so while we talk about the difficulty of a No Deal breaks it let us talk about the most egregious affront to democracy because when people like me who voted remain and many of us here which represent nearly half the country are fearful of the prospect of a No Deal brexit we should take a look at the source of project fear mr. John redwood himself he goes on national television misrepresents the facts tells people that we should go for a No Deal brexit while at the same time he advises his investor clients that they should reduce their investment in the UK it's a simple lie as anyone who reads my blog will know I'm very optimistic about the UK's prospects especially when we left the European Union and think we will be a very good place for investment and I'm all in favor of more jobs in investments so don't mislead people and my views called out as long as it takes I'm prepared to take ok you're prepared for shortages forever I won't be forever will it be well I want to say it's not gentlemen over there they remain essays and the remain is all say that they they want to they're worried about this that and the other what about the people who the majority the majority who voted the brexit is what happens we're always told by the remain of parties and the public want another vote I'm sorry but the public don't want another vote the majority all of us don't that's another question um the lady here in the blue and then we'll move on yes I voted to stay in the EU have I accept the brexit resort and you can't you don't know and you can't read their minds as the man said over there you can't be in my mind about why I voted bricks and no we can't you don't know that the 51% or wanted No Deal how do you know that yeah no one can work we should work together to support our Commonwealth and European citizens so we have talked about whether democracy is being cheated in any way we've talked about some of the consequences of a No Deal breaks it at the end of October if it goes ahead but what happens next the question everyone's trying to figure out tonight if there is a snap general election and the speculation is October the 14th now who will get your vote now have any of you changed your minds in terms of who you will vote for at the next election in order to get what you want on brexit YES on the front decided to vote Lib Dem from reason being is because both parties labour and conservatives so poles apart they create vacuum in the middle and people want to be able to have some sort of a way of parliament to be able to debate every single step for the next 5 years we'd on project no it won't or project fear on this side as they call it we have no idea what's going to happen over the next 5 years so I'm my my dream is we have a hung parliament so that we have to debate like we're doing at the moment every single step of the way until we remain believe in a referendum but i'ma remain yeah just on have you changed your view how are you gonna vote well I can't vote but I've just it seems to me there's something genuinely broken at the heart of British politics we seem to you know have a sort of integra integrity client crisis I mean whichever side of the debate you're on whether you want a second referendum on No Deal look at the European elections where people voting for the labor and conservative parties a traditional dominant party in this country or they vote into the brexit party in the Liberal Democrats who are clear about that breaks up positions and weren't painted by running having run the government in the past I mean to me it just seems there's something broken at the heart of British politics there seems to be so much fun just clarify why you can't vote I'm undertaking your Andree to fight okay who has changed their view - in order to achieve a brexit outcome in terms of how you vote yeah the gentleman and lady next yeah I've been a conservative activist all my life for principally because it supports a sound economy but if this becomes a single issue election about a No Deal brexit I can't support the Conservatives because of the damage it will do to the economy so how would you vote I vote aye I don't know I go quite as far but but certainly I'm considering my position if that is true that indeed there is the general election and I am a Conservative councillor I will be consist seriously considering my vote because for me there was not no deal on the ballot paper so for me it depends what the manifesto is going to be saying but I'm a london-based councillor and Wimbledon Park my my ward was 75 percent to remain I voted to remain however i i i have bought the withdrawal agreement i have bought with with with moving so you're thinking of voting the tennyson I don't know but I certainly John Harwood should she be expelled from the party I'm pleased suffering that very prospect so answer that Stephen Hammond be deselected it is not my job to decide who is in the Conservative Party and I'm very happy for the Conservative Party be a pretty broad church and I encourage as many as possible to stay in it and support the prime know Stephen Hammond should be expelled I'm not expressing a view on that that others will make that don't even you know because I haven't investigated what they said what they're doing no I don't judge people without facts yes here on the road you've been trying to get in from yeah normally I would label party all the time but now with this issue if there is general election I'm no good conservative or brexit super because that is the only two party that is actually responding trying to save the democracy come on you're trying to frustrate the people's choice they want to leave what can't you understand let's take a after we leave listen let's leave for us then let's carry on negotiating okay if a general election produces another minority government close if it depends on which minority government it is if it's a minority government that is from labor Liberal Democrat Green SMP and I think that would mean that there would be a good chance that we will be able to get a second a public vote basically in effect and I think that would decide the fate of the country I think if that happened that would be the likely outcome what why do you think you'd be able to get that fear of my noise I think well because we would have thought we would have had the confidence of Parliament and therefore gone to Her Majesty to form a government if that's the minority government that we have now don't forget it wouldn't necessarily have conservatives inside that inside that government but they may well on the specific issue of being able to get a second referendum the public vote they may well vote with us so that's really the great fear is the implanted expression right at the beginning of this program another election will solve nothing no I don't believe that's the case and you know when you look at Scotland answer the question that was asked we have proportional representation in the Scottish Parliament so we were as a minority government and we have to seek the support of other parties to get our budget through because we work together and that's the thing that today's army never understood when she was Prime Minister she was a minority prime minister and all she sought to do was try and hold a broken party together she never sought to reach a compromise across Parliament that's what we do in the Scottish problem like I'm afraid in the SNP we will work with others to try and save all of us from this no deal Breck sir but we won the European elections in Scotland we got 30 percent of the vote we've been in power for 12 years the people of Scotland have given the support to the SNP and the day when the people of Scotland complete that Germany to become an independent European nation against the ko of Westminster as course at hand and I welcome the opportunity to put ourselves in front of the Scottish people in a few weeks and asked for their support and Clive Lewis if it becomes obvious that Jeremy Corbyn cannot unite the opposition should he step aside for somebody who could I think Labour's been quite clear that no deal would be the worst possible outcome and I think Jeremy Corbyn is the composition should be if there is a caretaker government or minority administration and I think Jeremy Corbyn should lead that as the largest as the largest party in parliament or as the leader of the Opposition but clearly clearly if you can't command a majority in the house to be able to be able to see through the legislation that you acquire then I think you have to look at all other options about who could do that I think that's quite straightforward if you have said that no deal is the one outcome that you don't want so labour would have to look at her differently I think that would be happy I think I would have to be kept on the table yes okay Alex Phillips what do you think is going to happen I mean is the brexit party going to be whitetails really going to be or are you going to be the kingmakers no okay so first of all it's very pertinent question can I just say because I think what the last three years has shown us is there is something fundamentally broken with the democratic system or perhaps veering away from democratic system we have of two-party politics in this country will the brexit party be wiped certain know if you look at polling yes we've we were leading in the polls before Boris Johnson became p.m. and now we've I think our polling about half to 15 percent but that polling is staying steady that's what I'd like to call the flowers 15 it isn't accessible to Boris Nigel Farage and that the ardent sort of exit who but wouldn't necessarily ever lend their votes the Conservative Party are steadfast but on that so I just want to make one other very briefly what we're looking at you know it what's so interesting is when you look at those opposed to brexit being delivered if they could form a coalition or agree on who should be the standard bearer for that they would have called a vote of no-confidence in the days already in sight I see there's been a bath that's would John redwood I mean it's possible in election souls nothing isn't it well we got this corrosive pessimism the whole time from those who support staying in or do during over whether they want a second referendum or just to revoke article 50 and coupled with nasty slurs on people misrepresenting their views I would urge them to be positive about our country and to accept the verdict to the British people I do not see how a second referendum solves anything okay we've heard from the Liberal Democrat leader that if she lost the referendum again which I think she would she wouldn't accept that verdict either we're out of time we've got to leave it there thank you all very much indeed thank you to the panel thank you to the audience here and those of you watching at home it gets even more complicated when MPs go into Parliament tomorrow morning join us again tomorrow at 7 o'clock for channel 4 news to find out what happened for now good night [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause]

Channel: Channel 4 News

Views: 153,820

Rating: 4.271512 out of 5

Keywords: Channel 4 News, channel 4, Brexit, brexit debate, brexit news, brexit explained, brexit 2019, uk brexit, uk, news Brexit, Brexit Boris, Boris, Johnson Brexit, Boris Johnson, Brexit news, brexit latest, Boris Johnson Brexit, eu Brexit, latest Brexit, no deal, no deal brexit, johnson, brexit no deal, parliament, brexit parliament, suspend parliament, parliament suspended, proroguing, prorogue, clive lewis, alexandra phillips, john redwood, ian blackford

Id: uSl41yeQOQY

Length: 51min 30sec (3090 seconds)

Published: Mon Sep 02 2019