The Real Brexit Debate

it's decision time on breakfast will Therese amaze deal be done is there a better way to leave the EU or should we stop the whole thing with another referendum as we approach one of the biggest moments in British modern history welcome to the real brexit debate good evening Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn claimed they wanted a TV debate then couldn't agree on who else should be allowed to take part but on Tuesday the British Parliament faces one of its most important decisions since the Second World War whether to go ahead with Theresa BAE's brexit deal or do something else so tonight channel 4 is staging the debate we believe the British public deserves and we've distilled the different options into four main positions with four senior politicians to argue for them supporting Theresa Mays plan the conservative deputy chairman James cleverly who voted for breakfast for Labour's alternative plan the shadow trade secretary Barry Gardner who voted remain the conservative breakfast here Jacob Riis MOG who wants what he calls a clean break sit even if it means no deal and arguing for a people's vote in her case to stop brexit the Greens Caroline Lucas in our audience people of all ages and from all over the country also supporting those key options before we hear from the politicians let's hear a little from them hello where do you stand in this debate and what are you hoping for tonight well levers reject Theresa Mays deal and her treasonous behavior she is ceding control instead of taking back control and how dare she abandoned the rights of the citizens of Northern Ireland okay this is very strong language how about you hi I'm hoping for a Labour negotiated Briggs it dill that protects workers rights that protects environmental standards and failing to secure a general election I think a people's vote should be on the table but used only as a last resort every single version of Briggs it is going to leave the UK less well-off and when the NHS is struggling to recruit skilled workers I do not agree that ending freedom of movement is something to celebrate especially when it also reduces our own opportunities and finally it is not a pretty idea to threaten our friends and neighbors with food shortages and bankruptcy alright thank you and you yes this deal was always going to have to be a compromise I think the EU made it very plain from the outset that we weren't going to be able to achieve all the things that we asked for but what we have on the table is a viable defensible deal that gives confidence to business we have a glide glide path of 21 months a transition period for people and businesses to adapt and I think we need to back ourselves as a nation I think we've lost a little bit of confidence over the last several years I think we need to be have a little bit of bravery we need to have more leadership from Parliament and we need to move forward thank you very much indeed now if you are tweeting through this debate we're using the hashtag c4 brexit now it's almost 900 days since the UK voted to leave the European Union and just over a hundred days until the deadline MPs have to decide how and if it goes ahead so we want to cut through the chaos and achieve some clarity around the options tonight each of our guests will lay out their vision for what to do in a brief statement before we debate their plans in turn first with the governance deal the conservative deputy chairman James cleverly I've always believed that Britain's future would be better outside the EU that's why I campaign for brexit and was delighted when Britain voted to leave our deal delivers on what people voted for it takes back control of our money our borders our laws it means we can get on with brexit and give more time to focus on other important issues like the NHS now you're going to hear three people who oppose the deal they all want different things they cannot all be right the only thing we know for sure is that rejecting this deal means damaging uncertainty and as a brexit ear the thing that worries me the most is the real risk we do not leave the EU at all that's not a risk we need so let's get on with it back the deal and leave the EU in March next year Jake every smog tell James cleverly why he's wrong well the problem with the deal is it doesn't do what the prime minister said she said we'd leave the customs union the backstop leaves us in according to the Attorney General potentially forever said we'd be out of the European Court of Justice after 107 for says that European Court of Justices rulings will be authoritative in this country prime minister said there would be no border between nor now land and Great Britain there are 68 pages of regulations that will apply in Northern Ireland that will not reply and Great Britain Prime Minister's deal does not deliver on her promises and therefore does not deliver breaks it well I campaigned during the referendum Jacob as did you're on the same side of this referendum and I remember what the campaign promises were the promise was to repatriate our laws so that British parliamentarians like us would make laws for the UK repatriate our money so we could spend on our priorities like the NHS and also take back control of our borders those were the explicit promises during the referendum campaign this deal delivers on those promises during that referendum campaign there was very very little conversation about customs union this delivers on what people voted for and gives us a route map whereby we can set our own international trade policy which is one of my personal passions and it does so whilst protecting the integrity of the United Kingdom it is not perfect I'm not claiming it's perfect but it's there it's on the table and it gets us out on the trail Paragard James you're saying that it protects our money our laws and our borders on money your own Treasury projections say that it would be four percent worse off for GDP than if we didn't do it we've got 14 million people in this country that the UN says are living in relative poverty and that's what's going to happen to our money on laws your own science Minister left the government saying we have no voice we have no veto and we have no vote and when it comes to borders your deal as Jacob has just said would create a new border down the Irish Sea on money laws and borders you've completely flunked the deal that has been put forward gives us control over immigration policy for the first time in in decades gives us gives parliamentarians the ultimate say on lawmaking and more importantly it enables British voters to eject us at elections if they don't like the laws we're passing in a way that they can't at the moment and actually I'm glad that you want to talk about domestic policy because actually what we've seen with conservatives in government we've seen unemployment for we've seen employment increase we've seen wages grow faster than inflation we've seen school results improving and we have seen specific questions because you've ignored both of the points they made no I don't agree at all the point on the point I'm making is that this plan delivers on the promises made in the referendum allows us to get on with the domestic priorities and but Barry the the criticism from you I think is a bit Labour's one is all will come to Labour's planning in due course Kalin Lucas well I do think it's a bit rich of James to say this is about you know delivering on the promises of brexit because one of the biggest promises of brexit was about taking back control and what this is basically is the biggest handing over of control because we won't actually be rule makers loyal takers will be sitting outside the EU negotiators begging them to listen to us when it comes to the negotiations going forward so we're certainly not taking back control we're certainly not getting the exact same benefits either we are losing access that the best possible access by being part of the single market with our biggest trading neighbor we're losing our access to those 65 different countries that the EU has free trade agreements with you know we know we're going to be a lot poorer as a result of your deal but it's not only that 22 ministers have been lost from Teresa Mays government because they've basically looked at themselves in the mirror and thought this deal simply isn't going to work for the British people so to have you stand here and try and defend it on the grounds of a delivering promises and be delivering for the British people I think it's just fantasy you've got to face up to that well you're factually work actually in DeBary reference the Treasury forecast the treasury forecasts all predict economic growth there they are designed they are display are designed they are designed to take the the the way stage poorer than we would otherwise have been and for a bigger deal Breck say all for nine point three please answer this do that you'll do they not all project economic growth all of them project economics would have exactly the point in aims that if you're delivering something that is going to make the country poorer than it would otherwise be then you have to have a very why did you vote for the referendum if you think this was such a bad idea you voted for the referendum we all voted for the render but there too because I wanted to have the kind of deal they're all there are two people here this evening who will perhaps disagree with how best to honor the referendum result so there are two people who are going to argue to overturn that referendum result and I think that is a fundamental breach of trust with the British people you voted for that referendum Barry you voted for the reference but I've always said I've always said and my party has always said that we will respect the referendum result so you can't pin that one very small the problem is James that both you and the Prime Minister are saying things about the agreement that aren't actually in it so if you look at article 174 it gives supremacy to the European Court of Justice when you look at article 4 it says the agreement will be superior law in the UK in exactly the same way as all the previous European treaties have been that cannot mean that we are taking back control of our laws there are 68 pages of laws that will apply in Northern Ireland that will be adjudicated and made by the European Union we will have no say in that 68 pages of rules but Jacob you know all those instances you know all those instances are entirely a temporary during the transition period or in the event of a back stop but the Baxters attempt though I'm sorry to interrupt but the Attorney General has said in the advice that Parliament pulled out of him like pulling a tooth in that evidence he said that the back stop could be permanent there was nothing in the treaty or international law and he said the backstop he said article 50 gives no provision for the backstop to be permanent article 50 does not lead to a permanent but there's no there is no unilateral exit we knew I mean any we can only get any one of the reasons anyone that read any one that read the document noses there were knows that there was no Universal exit clause but the point you've always made is that any deal and I know your preferred option which is the manage no deal that would still require deal-making because there's money did you just answer Jacob Riis Maude's point about the European Court of Justice he's right isn't he it's temporary but for an amount a period that may go on forever but it won't go for this agreement was 10 years and actually in in the agreement what you've said is to zero the article 50 does not allow the backstop to be permanent is written there in it and actually if people are if people are saying they want absolutely legal certainty well actually that's just not how negotiated positions work and if we dig our heels and over this if we are saying basically that we won't do we will enter any agreements where there is political uncertainty then frankly we're not going to be able to do we're not about to do trade agreements with anyone else around the world they all require that degree of flexibility and adaptability James I really struggle to see how you can say as you did a bit earlier that this deal is about delivering certainty because we know that that political declaration is just a big black hole it's a huge jump into the dark there's nothing there that gives you any clarity a little about what we're voting for so essentially you're asking the British people to go for a blindfold brexit tried answer yet when we've got no return you know you know full well that the EU cannot enter into any binding agreement with a member state so we have to leave before we can sign any kind of green that's just that is the way the EU work so if we're going to negotiate a deal if you're suggesting if you're so Gerry please if you're suggesting that we should leave with no deal that's that's traumas are now the case for Labour's alternative plan for brexit and closer ties to Europe from Barry Gardner Jacob and Caroline have to explain is why they're happy to ignore the views of half their fellow citizens what Theresa May has to explain is why after two years she's brought back a deal that even her closest allies think would damage the UK but our country is not just divided over brexit the Labour Party sees record levels of poverty homelessness food banks and we know we need a deal that protects jobs and can heal the deeper divisions in our society labour would negotiate a permanent customs union a strong single market deal that protects workers rights and environmental standards people voted to leave but they voted for a better future only labour can deliver that Kalin Lucas well where to start really because I'm afraid that so much of that was in fantasy land the idea we're going to be able to get a better breakfast we know that there isn't a better brexit out there and this is the one that's on the table and the idea that we're going to get all of the benefits of the single market without actually being in it it's for the birds you can't just keep talking about this kind of strong relationship and hope that we're going to not notice that you've got to be in it to be part of it so I think part of the problem with your position is that it's just not based in the reality and you're not being level with the British public but second you talked about poverty and I agree with you so much about that but the idea that you would support a brexit that is going to make this country poorer your constituents are my constituents poorer completely baffles me so I really don't understand that and just one last point about the fact that really Barry brexit is a project of the right for the right by the right support you may dismiss many people in this country who voted for brexit as right-wingers I don't have the same contempt for those people who voted many of them many of them are good working people who voted for my party and probably many of them for yours Caroline for a long long time but they felt that they were not being heard in Europe exactly they felt that things were going wrong now I agree with you the Tories deal the Tories brexit deal it will make people worse off that's why what labour is offering is a much wider one can I come how do I get it because my leader hasn't even by are you saying labour could negotiate a deal in which Britain would be better off after brexit than we are in the European Union I'm saying that we can if we have a Labour government what we would have is we would then have a new strategy we could be better off the net we have we have if we have the Labour government which is then able to take the protections for making sure that we have aid for our communities aid for our our public services under the investing putting in a national infrastructure are you say yo ting in national development unicorn Regional Development Bank's that we sorry that's not you see it's unicorn Fantasyland if you're in but if you're out of the EU and you can do those things if you can put in that regional infrastructure then the very people who have felt that breaks it that the European Union left them behind and wanted brexit because they felt left behind will see that under a Labour government what we can have is a country that is being reunited this doesn't work does it because in your introductory comments you said we should stay in the customs union a customs union and be in the single market that's being in the Audion and if you're in the European Union you can't have state aid because the state aid rule is prohibited and the EU has made it absolutely clear in the backstop as it stands that if you're in the back so if you're on the customs union you can't have the state aid rules so if Labour wants the state head rules it can't have the brakes at uni if you're of course it could what you've talked about is the customs union and that of course is precisely what's wrong with James's backstop arrangement it has the customs unions that you get locked into where you couldn't do you couldn't do any independent deals but you couldn't do any deals and other than that the EU did force what we've said what we've said is that we would negotiate a new customs are all different in which in which the UK had to say on any future trade agreement that is this is this is a this is a pick-and-mix of all the fantasy positions to try and please absolutely everybody the Labour Party Barry you know this oh you're written down the middle you yourself you're telling me that you yourself said Romania the customs union would be a bad idea you said that the single bottom staying in the single market wouldn't be delivering brexit and could lead to civil unrest and you're now standing here advocating it why the change of position no it's not actually because what I said as you well know James is that if we were to stay in the customs union where we didn't have the freedoms of being able to have a say in our future trade agreements if we were to stay in the single market what we said is that we want a strong relationship with the single market I don't like you give me a pattern the give me a model is there any country in the world that has that relationship yes indeed Switzerland for one Liechtenstein for another Norway for another so it really doesn't have the same kind of access for those countries and I want to say one thing in action why we want that's why we dream because we're the fifth largest I wanted to raise a different point to Barry because I think I think one of the reasons that so many labour voters who do not want this way forward the majority of them so so many of them are concerned because they see really selling out the future of our young people young people overwhelmingly voted to remain and I don't think that they're going to and what you're doing with freedom of movement I think is catastrophic you know I think the idea of and I think freedom of movement is a wonderful what we have said on freedom of movement is we have recognized the fact that if you are no longer a member of the European Union freedom of movement comes to an end what we have and we were the first to argue for citizens rights both our citizens in the European Union and citizens from the European Union here being guaranteed those rights in the future where that we are the party that has always criticized this government because of the way in which they've set their economic policy to chime with some stupid arbitrary immigration they put on and we're not what we have said is that we will always we will always have our immigration policy a fair reasonable immigration policy in line with the economic needs of our country not for the very prospect asking for things that the EU has clearly said it will not give it perceives the customs union a customs union the single marketers benefits of membership I think they're the poison of membership that's separate matter they have said you cannot have the benefits of membership without freedom of movement and without the jurisdiction of the European Court so in what sense have you left you're basically saying we should stay but ignore all these rules they won't have it Jacob look you know very well that in any trade agreement that you conclude you conclude that trade agreement by an alignment of your rules and regulations and that's why President Trump wants us to align our rules and regulations that means to deregulate them in line with the way in which America operates so you'd have the chlorinated chicken you'd have the defect level handbook that allows 11:00 wrapped hairs every to explaining precisely why what Jacob is saying is wrong because in when he says oh we want the freedom to be able to set our own rules if you want to trade agreement with the United States you won't get that because we'll boroughs the trade secretary and Donald Trump's are both clearly dead if you want to deal with the United States you have to align your rules with ours and move them away from the you're making it sound as if you really don't want to do international trade no not to talk so which countries do you want to do which countries do you wants to international trade deals I want to do international trade deals with the 70 countries that we already have international trade deals through the European you don't want to leave and save a Labor Party's position what I would respect you more if you just came out and saying the Labor Party don't respect a lot more as well just be honest and you know I'm pointing out on a leave that it is your deal you know your deal that has ruled out though that is endangered those 40 trade agreements with those 70 countries right it's your deal that's done that and a No Deal scenario would make it even worse of course we want new deals but we believe that actually being part of a 500 million strong consumer market gives us much more raid size matters now Conservative MP Jacob Riis MOG puts forward his argument this is about trust before the referendum all sides agreed that they would abide by the result and that they would implement it this evening of the four politicians here I'm the only one who wants to stick with what was voted for just think if it had been a remain result would we be talking about hard remain or soft remain no we would simply have remained and the same should apply to brexit people voted for it and it should be delivered the economics is very important but the economics is not all one-way the EU is a failing economic model and 90% of future global growth is going to come from outside the European Union but the issue today is trust will politicians do what they promised or will they run away from their promises Peres Gardiner Jacob it's not the hedge fund managers that are going to suffer by your sort of brexit is it it's the people who are working in manufacturing industries who are working in sectors that rely on our just-in-time supply chain and it's they who are going to lose their jobs and in your style of brexit it's they who are going to see their their rights eroded can you tell us and tell the audience about Plan A plus that you were the launch of just a few days ago plan A+ said that you wanted to end limits on the hours that people in this country can be asked to work to end the precautionary principle in Environmental Protection's say yes to pesticides residues yes to hormone disrupting chemicals and GMOs remove the the parity pay for posted workers that means that workers who come from abroad can't undercut workers who are already here these are the things that your style of brexit is all about and that is why the public will absolutely to say first of all the hedge fund managers by and large didn't vote for brexit they voted for a main it's people up and down this country seventeen point four million who voted for them and if you want tougher regulations on Exxon why win an election and implement them let that be decided by the British if you want a regular series of elections but this is the failure of ambition for the Labour Party you think you can't win elections enough where you must get Europe to implement regulations that you like this should be done by you domestically because you may not be able to win those three places you want to cut them you want to deregulate we can decide the gentleman's right it should be up to our democracy to decide and as it happens I think that most people would decide to maintain the workers rights that we have in this country but that's a democratic choice with the usual people you might would maintain most of them I wouldn't maintain the working hours one that one of the points that Jacob made which i think is is absolutely spot-on he said that the EU regard the customs union and the single market is the jewels in their crown and this is why I'm actually less fearful of the backstop than perhaps some my good friends and colleagues because Jacob and others think it's a trap that we can never get out of but the EU think it is a palace that we will never want to leave they think that having single market and customs union access without freedom of movement and without money is all our Christmases come at once which is why I ask why would they want to lock us into what they think is the best of both worlds when actually you and I both know that they are really very uncomfortable with giving the UK access to the single market the customs union without the money and without freedom of movement unfortunately this argument is all too redolent of the one put forward by conservative politicians over the years saying Europe is going our way and now it's going to move in a British direction and we can be more comfortable don't worry the EU gets everything it wants with us in the customs union it can arrange our trade negotiations it can set our tax rates and no representation without taxation taxation without representation an important principle and is broken in this Agreement because the EU can set minimum tax rates for this country that's very good for them it protects their inefficient businesses how many stops the EU sets for this country de you will have the ability to set v80 regulations and how many hiring regulations well it sets hundreds there are tens of thousands of customs tariff rates of an individual kind that set an EU level that would be maintained if we were in the customs union so it's a really serious point but it does also minimum v80 rates would maintain being set by the European Union on domestic fuel on ladies sanitary products and so on Lucas I want to go back to something that you said Jacob right at the beginning you were talking about trust and the betrayal of trust I want to put it to you that that betrayal is going to be nothing compared to the betrayal that future generations are going to feel younger generations when they see what we're doing but you're doing that no deal is nothing to be afraid of and I would put it to you that it's very easy for people who are insulated from some of the effects of no deal to be able to say that it's not anything to be afraid of but you know this isn't a parlor game this isn't some sort of debating society these are real people's real lives and people up and down this country are hugely concerned about the impacts of the kind of bricks that you are championing were still the kind of no deal that you'll be perfectly happy to have so how you can look the British people in the face knowing that your brexit is going to make the massively poorer the point about whether or not people voted for this kind of bricks that I want to raise that because the vote was a binary choice without being any any ability to be clear about what kind of brexit we're talking about it's clear what kind of remain we're talking about because that's been negotiated we have original we don't know what that kind of brexit wants you've got three elements wrecks it's on on offer here how do we know which is there I say this is stunningly out idea that the voters the voters didn't know what they were doing and therefore they should be made to do it no because in edgeways please but that also that these unborn people might vote remain in the European Union they're not here voting is done by the people who turn up not future generations who may think completely different things their views are unknowable they haven't even been for young now whose fortunes are being closed down by your kind you're talking about is your view which you then apply to other people and you were going on for generations I'm dealing with seventeen point four million people who won and this is a losers vote that is being advocated by people who take the facts I think we should try and get the debate on to sort of much more courteous chance but you talked about trust Jacob and one of the things that you and your party have been saying is that you want to see security cooperation maintained that you want to have frictionless trade in the EU and particularly that in terms of trust we must ensure that we honor the international agreement that we already have which is the Good Friday Agreement your deal yes sorry your nan deal yeah doesn't deliver any of that I don't think that's right the Good Friday Agreement is actually not delivered on by the government's deal because it gives a different status to Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom without the approval of the people of Northern you would see a hard border come back in now I won't there's absolutely no reason for a hard border even under EU regulations Eros require for example that food checks are done at the border it's not in Roger Dracula is in Rotterdam this is 25 mile killing my kilometres away from the border take of these things do not require hard border construction it's not actually the EU here that we're talking about it's under World Trade Organization rules most favored nation trading status if there is if you are allowing people from the UK in Northern Ireland to import goods into the south or the other way that means that you are treating them you have to give the same deal okay I need to answer that because you may not have been keeping up with the news in the last couple of days but the world trade organization itself has denied that any rule of it requires enforcement of a hard border in Northern Iowa video has indeed said that but I have must make this point because you know the truth of this we've gotta move on as the video said that being said by the World Trade Organization labor doesn't we've also said that you can't unilaterally draw exactly WTO rules and you would have to do that order because your capacity was independent trade deals which is you can unilaterally drop your tariffs to everybody but you can't do it unless under article 24 of the g8 et you are negotiating a free trade deal which would be very likely changing everybody take was made the point that he believes that there are technical solutions there are administrative solutions which means that we won't need a hard border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland that's one of the exit clauses from the backstop so you can't be fearful of being trapped in the backstop but also say we have the escape key because they are canary you're arguing for your own deal again yes well of course that's what supposed to be questioning here that's why the truth of the border is the UK the EU and the Irish have said they do not want and will not implement a hard border who is doing this are we borrowing Donald Trump's wall in Mexico and putting it up there is no demand for a hard border different regulations you have to have a border I'm afraid we've heard the main arguments for how we should leave the European Union now the Green Party MP Caroline Lucas has 45 seconds to tell us why she believes that people's vote which could results in staying in the EU is the right way forward well one thing that already clear from tonight is that this decision can't be left to the politicians we simply don't agree I'm sure many of you at home are screaming at the television in despair and that's why I want you to have your say we all of us know so much more now than we did two years ago and a people's vote would be your first chance to vote on the facts now we're going to have to live with the consequences of this decision for decades to come and it will affect young people most of all so let's just be sure let's vote on this together as a country don't leave it to the Westminster elite to decide for you Caroline there's a number of people from a number of parties that are passionate for this second referendum or if you prefer people's vote have you agreed amongst yourselves what the question in that second referendum would actually be it's going to be for Parliament's and the Electoral Commission to absolutely finally I will just we're finalizing what the questions should be the questions certainly have the option to remain on it because we know that's what most people actually University and what we're going to put against that would be presumably the deal that Theresa May has done what I will say we will not put on that ballot paper though is either no deal at all because I think that would be reckless and because No Deal doesn't really mean anything no deal still has to be negotiated in some way and we don't know what that looks like so we don't want some kind of abstract concept on there what we want I think is a choice between remaining or the deal that Theresa May has has managed to negotiate but you haven't answered you haven't answered my you haven't answered my simple yes/no question is there an agreement amongst the people campaigning for a second referendum is there agreement on what the question should be yes or no there's certainly no disagreement we're not we haven't won the people's view yet we haven't won the people's vote yet but there's absolute agreement that there should be remain and Teresa Mays deal and the point is I want to talk about why people are saying that you know somehow this has already been voted on already it hasn't people have not had the opportunity to actually work out the detail of the deal and that's what they should have because basically when you see the information you've got so many more facts you've got so much more information than we had two years ago then this is the first opportunity people will have to actually vote on those facts what I don't understand about your position is this you and I agree that there's so much that we need to tackle in this country homelessness universal credit poverty look at you know the state of the world in terms of what's happening at the moment in in in climate change and and meeting our climate targets the you and I both care about that so why is it that you're saying that if this deal fails we shouldn't have a general election you know that seems the way to actually I would be the first person to love to have a general election and get rid of this awful the sad truth is it's not gonna help us because we know that what you're going to put in your manifesto right now on bricks it isn't so very different from what the government has so that doesn't help us resolve that particular issue doing you know manifested what I want to talk about the issue of poverty because you know I massively agree with you that many people who voted leave you know we're voting because they think the status quo in this country is intolerable and it is we're a country of grotesque inequalities but the way that we solve those inequalities is not to make all of us poorer and crash the economy or is what we have to do is to tackle that pedal and that is exactly if you get a second page and lose that how long will it be before you ask for the third it's the original vote to say do you want to leave or do you want to remain and then you look at the detail just as trade unions do when they might decide to go on strike and then there's negotiations and someone comes back and says do you like this deal that's not the sense that you're going to go on doing it again and again if you're buying a house or moving to a new flat and you suddenly find that the surveyors report tells you that it's falling apart the dodgy wiring and holes in the roof you've got every right not to take that particular flat did you call for a second referendum before the first referendum did you say if we said David Cameron should have had one seven days Jacob to have the second random negotiation is complete that was David Cameron's renegotiation and he didn't go down that route but you didn't say once a second referendum you said you'd accept the result then you lost and now don't want to and the seventeen point four million people who beg you to leave who you're talking about and you're saying they're disappointed and upset with the way the country is running it would be more upset I think that the will of the people can change that's something different between fundamental dishonesty though in your position on this because you say you want the people's vote you want to give the choice back to the people yes you want to remain exact wouldn't it be more honest to say I'm a remainer and I want to remain I'm saying both of those things I'm not ashamed of saying that I still think that's a word is green right you can encode because I'm not dictating about some of that vote the vote will be dictated by the people who actually vote and you cannot undermine please don't shelter because we can't hear everything cannot undermine the will of the people by having a vote of the people back to the people and you change that see and if they are we go ahead and we leave but if they're not right Caroline you voted for the referendum we collectively in fact everybody did on the on the panel here today we said we would decide it we decided that on this issue in this instance we would have direct democracy rather than the representative democracy we normally have but now you don't get the answer that you wanted you're saying you foolish foolish people you didn't understand the question keep redoing your homework until you get it right I think that is a massive I would agree with you but I'm not I'm saying that two years ago we didn't have an element of the kind of information we have now we were being told there was going to be the 350 million pounds for the NHS every week on the side of 300 people from Turkey were about to join any second we were told that we were going to go to sunlit options that is not the case we are now clear that people are going to be poorer people did not vote two years ago to be poorer so why are you so scared of going back to check that they're happy with your deal if you're so sure that your deal is the right one then people will vote for it again but if they're not then they should have the right to have that say the truth is that when a Prime Minister no longer commands a majority in the House of Commons then they ceased to function as a prime minister and that's when actually and actually it's interesting to see Jacob nodding at this point because he knows he knows the constitutional position and that is what it should be if the Prime Minister loses this vote on Tuesday the only decent the only honorable thing for her to do is to call a general election to stand aside and that is the real people's vote that is when the people will decide and they will not just decide they won't just decide on the little things about the brexit deal they'll decide on every one of the policies of austerity on that have made people poor for the past eight years the brexit deal is going to affect the future for generations to come and the tragedy of this Barry is that the opposition is not actually being a rigorous opposition they are briefly we've had three votes we had David Cameron's with 18 2015 to get a mandate for a referendum we had the referendum and then a general election when both the Labour Party in the Conservative Party said they would carry out the result of the referendum the Labour Party the Labour Party said it would carry out the result of the referendum in a different way but nonetheless it said it would do that we have had three Democratic votes expression of will by the British people why is your view better than theirs and every single constituency now for a people's vote I rest my case that I think the will of the people has changed over the past two years and let's check by going back to them but the point about the general election is that you can't say that that the election in 2017 was somehow a mandate for brexit I don't if you noticed but Teresa may lost her majority she lost her mandate she lost a credibility wonder what we need now is the people's vote Caroline Lucas thank you now at the start of this program we heard from the hopes and fears of some of the members of this audience Lester speaks were cup of them now what do you I like the majority of voters voted to leave in 2016 and the only way that I see that we are going to leave is to go to the WTO regulations I cannot see [Applause] thank you yes well I'm a liberal member and I'm also remainer and I cannot vote in the next election the snap election that you want to call for a Labour Party there were not other people's wort in this manifesto I can't I cannot support a node or breaks it under any circumstances it'd be an absolute tragedy for the UK and if we can't if this government won't give us a people's vote then unfortunately trees and maize deal is the only one that we have out of necessity thank you thirty months ago I voted leave I've completely flipped I won't remain now I think should be a people's vote this wasn't the relieve I voted for at times like this I am aligning myself with a great philosopher Cara Minogue with a better the devil you know our panelists have one more challenge to state their case 20 seconds each first in support of the people's votes Caroline Lucas well the gentlemen the front row there just summed it up really that people can change their minds and people have changed their mind so why don't we just go back and check that they're still happy with this you know it's really clear you've just seen it for the last hour we are completely split on this the country is split on this so if people they're back at home feel that they didn't have the information they would have liked two years ago then have a people's vote now and have your say Jacob Riis mark this is all about trust across Europe politicians are distrusted there in France and troubles in Italy everybody agreed to accept the result of the referendum now Teresa may have said one thing and come back with a deal that does another the Labour Party has six versions of motherhood and apple pie and the revote is simply a losers vote thank you we should have trust paragon this government has failed their botched deal would destroy jobs it would undermine rights and protections and it would rip our country in half we believe that you deserve better Labor's vision is for a country at peace with itself and at peace with our neighbors in Europe Labour's deal secures your job and your future what we've seen here is three people who plan to vote against the deal for completely different reasons Jacob like me wants to leave Caroline wants to stay and no one really knows what the Labour Party wants at all they cannot all be right and I am NOT going to risk something I've worked so hard for so long Antonio to March we get to leave let's just take the deal and get out that's it my thanks to the politicians who did accept the invitation and to ask studio audience why couldn't Teresa moan Jeremy Corbyn have come on Tuesday night a special two-hour edition of Channel 4 News will cover the big breaks it votes as it happens between 7:00 and 9:00 o'clock an extraordinary night of political turmoil determining all of our futures thanks for watching a very good night you

Channel: Channel 4 News

Views: 379,299

Keywords: Channel 4 News, Brexit, the real brexit debate, Brexit debate, Brexit Explained, brexit news, brexit deal, brexit live, uk brexit, brexit latest, theresa may brexit, brexit no deal, brexit latest news, channel 4 brexit, brexit update, no deal, brexit negotiations, brexit channel 4, eu brexit, european union, may brexit, no deal brexit, brexit 2018

Id: YjI7QhrKoio

Length: 47min 43sec (2863 seconds)

Published: Sun Dec 09 2018