Biden's America against Xi's China: Struggle for supremacy? | To The Point

who can stop china's surge to global dominance it's one huge question and one huge challenge that is facing the new u.s president joe biden biden has inherited a divided and doubt-ridden america from his predecessor donald trump meanwhile xi jinping's china is both expansive and authoritarian it's two rival systems apparently on collision course so on to the point we ask biden's america against she's china struggle for supremacy well thanks very much for joining us here in the studio where my guests are suji brumasum from dw's asia desk who believes china has the means to become an even more influential international player but is the global north ready for a non-western leadership also with us is felix lee who's written a number of books on china and worked there for many years as a correspondent he argues that america's tough stance on china could aggravate the conflict and make things more difficult for europe and a warm welcome too to tyson barker from the german council on foreign relations who says the biden administration is set to turn to europe with new ideas about a common front on china so how will europe respond thank you once again all three of you for being here today uh felix i'd like to begin with you if i might and i think it's fair to say that a lot a lot of people assume that everything would change when joe biden replaced donald trump in the white house but it's not quite so no tensions between beijing and washington remain just as high are you surprised actually not because um joe biden already or his his administration already said so that they will keep on being tough on china and this is also i mean of course trump did a lot of things wrong in the relationship with china in his presidency but that's only one part the other part china became a much bigger rival not only to the u.s to the whole world and especially under xi jinping so i'm not surprised at all that biden is following this tougher stance and you can also see that under the obama years if you compared with the obama yes he obama already said pivot to asia we focus more on asia but he didn't do much in his presidency and um and now biden knows he doesn't have he doesn't not only have to continue what obama was starting he has to be more tougher okay tyson against the backdrop of what uh felix has just been saying there are a lot of commentators who are saying that relations between the two sides have plummeted to their worst level in many many years in a very long time is that scaremongering or is that realistic i think there's some realism behind that i mean if you look at what happened in the united states in the trump years trump was clearly very hawkish on china used it a lot in his rhetoric but he at the same time negotiated the phase one uh trade deal which has not delivered the what was promised and has really stalled in the meantime we have the kova 19 crisis which has accelerated everything a more aggressive china greater dependencies more ip theft and the population in the united states very divided as we've noted but all throughout the population and in the halls of congress there's one thing that continues to unite and that is the question of how do we deal with china china is a real uh systemic conflict um so that is the one thing the one key policy issue around which america can unite at this point in time that is it's something that i think most americans and most uh people in washington see as something from from the left to the right as as a real challenge and something that needs to be taken on the one difference i would say between biden and and trump is biden says we want to take it on with allies with like-minded partners because this isn't a conflict about countries necessarily or people this is a conflict of ideologies okay let's bring in suji and uh joe biden and xi jinping uh recently spoke at length for about two hours in fact and it was a a meeting where we're told that they were they were at odds on most issues but joe biden came out afterwards and said and i thought it was an extraordinary statement china will eat our lunch what did you make of that yes i i think that under trump the u.s has kind of alienated a lot of the international community and i think biden as a newly elected president um has a lot to live up to he promised to enforce democracy and universal values and he wants to bring back i think the us as a global uh superpower a global player and i think he will pick up um let me just interrupt he sounded distinctly ruffled he did some commentators said it was just equip this comment about china we'll eat our lunch but for my from my view it seemed like he was he was ruffled and very constinated about the future yes i mean i think he has reasons to feel a bit uh ruffled as you say because um china has xi jinping has said you know he wants china to become a technological powerhouse there's the made in china 2025 which is soon way on its way to success and then we have the very expansive belt and road initiative so china's policy and infrastructure and further developing the manufacturing industry i think the us feels slightly threatened and i think washington does not want to lose the game of course and they want to kind of address policy revisit the china approach and so that they are not left behind and catch up to china okay uh felix at that meeting that i just mentioned between the two leaders joe biden voiced concerns about beijing's coercive and unfair trade practices as he put it concerns about hong kong concerns about beijing's treatment of muslims in xinjiang and about its approach towards taiwan it's not exactly a way of sort of making friends and influencing people no i think that's also not his point or that's he he has a lot of risks i mean the europeans criticize it too all these points because this is where china really become a threat uh not only on other countries in the region but on ideas and so this is a systemic rivalry which has been which has grown and which hasn't been before xi jinping i mean the china was all before there was also a communist country but they were not so aggressive as china has become under xi jinping so i think it was exactly his purpose of by mr biden to to point this out well while the u.s and europe have been distracted by the massive impact of the kobit crisis on their societies china has been the lead nation in the creation of a big new free trade bloc that was signed into life at the end of last year it's a triumph for china after years of negotiations 15 countries in the asean pacific region have signed the rcep free trade agreement joining the asean states are western allies south korea japan australia and new zealand these countries represent one third of the world's population and its global economic output china also has an investment agreement with the eu and with the silk road project the middle kingdom is forging new alliances and relationships in central asia and africa meanwhile china is vigorously pushing its own agenda for example the country imposed sanctions on goods from australia because among other reasons the government barred chinese company huawei from building a 5g network the message if you oppose china you're in trouble how dangerous will china's expansionism be for the u.s suji uh let's begin with the this conflict between china and australia what is what is going on there and what can we learn i think uh australia for example it's very close to china so and china has very much closer relations to china in a more direct sense than for example the u.s and europe geographically and demographically there's also a large chinese community in australia and however i think as china is seemingly more aggressive on the xi jinping in the pacific asia region australia now in the last few years are wanting to kind of tighten also its policy against china and also impose tariffs and be more cautious and because they are more direct in contact with china and they feel more threatened and i think that but to the reactions from the region um i think the europe and the us can now kind of look first and use australia as kind of a an example of what could happen if um at the beginning of the show we had this quote from you where you said you asked whether the global north would be willing to accept non-western leadership that was very intriguing tell us a little bit more yes i think that uh of course there's the debate um washington's kind of putting forth that it's not about fighting china it's about fighting an authoritarian state because i think it's a narrative that's easier to catch on to in the global north where it's uh something very uh difficult to dispute you know uh universal values and but i think china is uh very prepared to expand its influence it has very strong economic ambitions however i think the question is an interesting question to look at as well is is the world ready for china as a global leader because uh this is uh debatable but china is now the first non-western uh country with a non-western population that is getting the title of a superpower well i see what tyson has to say about that question how far will the west go in accepting uh non-western leadership i mean i don't i think that the west is trying to countries in europe and the united states canada et cetera are really trying to redefine that they don't want it to be geographically narrow they do want it to be as was mentioned values based and that's why you're hearing a lot more let's talk about the west and more talk about like-minded countries working together and i think that that's really the strategic advantage when you look at how china interacts with its neighbors in its near abroad let's say or even countries in the global south it tends to be a very extractive relationship these are not relationship building exercises that build political capital and deepen trust and we've seen time and again in the past 15 years the relationship between china and brazil the relationship with africa in the late uh in 2008 that a lot of times countries and populations become disillusioned with the chinese because they're so extractive so this idea of building an alliance system is something that really is a unique advantage of countries like uh the united states and its allies in europe and japan south korea which are not obviously western countries felix yeah i mean um it was definitely a mistake by the trump administration to give up the free trade agreement which was were started in southeast asia but also in europe and trump didn't want it and got rid of it and china stepped into this this whole the u.s left behind so that this was definitely a mistake on the other hand especially in the southeast asian countries and not only australia and taiwan a lot of them distrust china and this continues although they have a trade agreement now with china the asean um they still the distrust is still very very high and this might be a chance not only for the us but all for all this i would say how how did you describe it this like like-minded countries to start to think about a common china strategy how to deal with this aggressiveness which comes from the xi jinping government yeah i suppose i mean the question is does it always need to be is does this question ultimately confrontational communication which is the right path to go down i mean it depends i mean of course it would be always better to communicate with each other but on certain points it's probably not possible i mean what china did on hong kong um to give up uh or to to uh to to to and other examples or to hinyong is this is uh something where i think there's not much to communicate anymore you have to criticize it very sharp and and this is what i was a little bit missing especially from the european countries and you have to have frankly consequences right i mean consequences in treatment uh the international system the systemic theft of intellectual property which people have described as the greatest wealth transfer from the west the united states japan to china in the history of the world that is we criticize the trump administration for many things but one thing that we can't criticize them for is having let's say the courage and they really changed the culture in washington to impose consequences on china even if it meant that it was going to cause some sacrifice at home is this at the beginning of the show we had you in your statement saying that the u.s will turn to europe with new ideas about forging a common line on china is that what you're referring to there i think that that's part of it i mean big question is market access can we deepen the democratic space and at the same time harden the requirements to enter the democratic space with products with services with infrastructure with procurement with ip with data are these things that we want to say to china you know if you want to provide social media services 5g equipment all these kind of things you have to abide by the rules of the system which has not been the case since they entered the wto in 2000. so gsr1 headline this week eu caught between the fronts between the fronts of china and the us is that how you might see it uh yes i think that is uh you could describe it like that because i think um there's washington there's the us on one hand and there's also europe and within europe there are many different countries that have different takes on the china strategy for example germany is in comparison to the us is more i would say lenient more open towards china because germany sees a lot of business interest in china and it has a very uh strong trading relationship and i think germany has always caught for example medical she's always caught in between protecting business interests versus the human interests and human rights and democratic values and i think that europe is deciding how much they're weighing um you know will we prioritize business trade economic development with china or will we take a step back and look at the human rights situation in in china tyson you're nodding i agree i mean the bottom line is the path to a united or any kind of coherent european china strategy or policy goes right through berlin berlin is going to be determinant as it was in the case of the comprehensive investment agreement and it has to strike that balance between its economic interests which are growing with china and dependencies and the human rights and values questions okay we haven't talked yet about taiwan beijing of course views taiwan as an indivisible part of its territory taiwan for its part wants greater independence it's going to be interesting to see who wins out let's have a look taiwanese president visits one of the country's largest military bases according to this bold statement taiwan is prepared for a possible attack by the chinese after all chinese fighter jets continue to invade taiwan's airspace the coast guard operating near this group of taiwanese islands also feels this growing tension ships are dumping sand presumably for construction projects in mainland china and nerves are running high residents are scared because they don't know why so many ships from mainland china are showing up here all of a sudden so of course they're worried experts call this gray zone tactics or provocations without open combat that are still threatening the u.s under former president donald trump has clearly opposed china in this ongoing conflict the same is true of the ever-escalating dispute over the other island groups on the strategically important trade route between asia and the rest of the world in an emergency will the u.s risk war for the sovereignty of taiwan and other asian countries yeah the big questions being asked about taiwan we touched on it already some are suggesting that uh we may be sleepwalking into a major conflict is that realistic um yes i think it is very realistic as we can see what happened in hong kong the last two three years nobody expected i mean of course hong kong was already in a much bigger influence under the communist regime in beijing as taiwan is at the moment but nobody expected that they will really destroy hong kong's democracy in such a uh fast way while the the way the chinese government beijing did and sort of also a failure of the west that they didn't pay enough attention and that they didn't take enough hard stance on beijing dealing with hong kong so and i'm really worried that this will happen again on taiwan because of course the way china beijing really you can say occupied hong kong and got it under its control um that this could happen to taiwan i think it's really really possible and uh and as for the u.s taiwan has also a strategic a very important strategic role so i think there will be a conflict and i'm sort of worried how this will yeah what do you say suji i mean uh taiwan wants independence we know that much china says independence means war the u.s says its support for taiwan is rock solid it's a scary scenario yes i think for example there are china may in the future we will see there are some negotiables um for example um but i definitely feel strongly that taiwan is a non-negotiable for china um for security reasons um number one taiwan is very close directly it's an island just in front of china and so i think china will fight to maintain authority over taiwan and but of course you know i can understand it from a strategy perspective if taiwan gains more autonomy and gains stronger relations with the us as opposed to beijing you know the us it's already also present in many parts of asia pacific you know in the philippines south korea in gowan and having a more us influence and presence in literally uh opposite china it will i think china will not let this one go and it's interesting with your euro australian background former australian prime minister kevin rudd has come out and said that xi jinping wants to emulate chairman mao by capturing taiwan again really strong stuff yes that is a very strong comparison to say that xi jinping is emulating mao um uh however i do think uh i put from my perspective i think in this moment of time china's priority is primarily economic prosperity economic ambition as opposed to political ambition but of course this can change in the future i'm talking about the next few years china has very strong economic ambitions okay tyson when we talk about china we're often using we tend to use a lot of isms i made a little list neo-colonialism authoritarian revisionism techno nationalism yeah is this just a a reflection of the of the fact that the west of the the west has a tendency to uh to misunderstand china um i obviously isms are reductionism yeah and i would even throw one more ism in there which i would say is actually kind of defining which is mercantilism um china is trying to create a kind of hub and spoke system through things like the belt and road initiative through a different layering of of new lock-in relationships also in technology to basically create chokeholds and access and control issues that gives it a lot more political leverage geopolitically but the truth is is that china is a very complex country with a massive history governed at multi layers um there is a huge centralizing effort right now we see this in the crackdown for example on chinese big tech you know xi jinping is really trying to consolidate power uh in the ccp and behind him personally but it's it's complicated and that's why one of the reasons we need more china expertise uh in the west in like-minded states because we need to know what the country is doing where the dynamics are going so we don't miscalculate and lead to some kind of instability or escalation that could occur and just from the american perspective do you think that joe biden really believes that he can win against china in the next 10 years because that's that's what he set out as his goal effectively it it's hard to define what we mean by winning i mean obviously the optimum scenario is that china and the uness and the us both exist in a liberal international order that is rules-based and and frankly develop classical balance of power well yeah our classic yeah unipolar moment that is you know based in in institutions that would be that would be ideal but we're not headed in that direction um the big shift from the trump years to the the biden years i think and this is their aspiration is to you know basically latch up with like-minded states and see if they can create that kind of situation of strength to push china to kind of stand back from some of this aggression aggressive action that it's been playing both militarily and geoeconomically felix yeah i mean it's uh if the rivalry gets too big and uh strengthens to escalate this will be a loose situation for everyone and probably for the whole world but on the other hand of course there are certain points where it does make sense to criticize china maybe a lot of things and um and hopefully uh uh under bind this becomes um gets into a more rational way the criticizing uh unlike uh his uh donald trump but also europe has to uh raise his voice its voice and find its own china strategy and this is what i'm still missing okay you've been watching to the point we've been talking about relations between china and the united states tense stuff i hope you've been given plenty of food for thought if you have come back next week until then bye bye and cheers [Music] [Music] [Music] you

Channel: DW News

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Keywords: DW News, to the point, joe biden, us china, china us

Id: tvJfX1sLU-I

Length: 26min 4sec (1564 seconds)

Published: Thu Feb 18 2021