Biden confronts Russia and China: What is the US' foreign policy strategy? | To The Point

labeling vladimir putin a killer accusing china of genocide against the uighur people the biden administration has taken off the gloves when it comes to relations with two of the u.s main rivals with harsh rhetoric against russia and china the new u.s president's apparently looking to make good on his pledge that america is back and won't be pushed around both rivals responded promptly and angrily how prepared is the u.s for dramatic deterioration in relations and will america's allies go along biden confronts russia and china but can the u.s win [Music] welcome to to the point it's a pleasure to greet our guests matthew karnichinik is from the u.s magazine politico and he says biden's foreign policy course won't lead to confrontation it will help the world avoid one by making clear to both china and russia where the red lines are it's great to have malta laming with us once again he's from the berlin daily detached beagle and his opinion if all three big powers abandon any sense of caution then a very messy escalation could follow and it's a pleasure to welcome hangzhou lee from dw's asia desk she thinks china's wolf warrior diplomacy is a mistake the more aggressive it gets the closer the west will be drawn together so matthew you talk in your opening statement about red lines and as we all know red lines can become an embarrassment for a leader who doesn't follow up with deeds so let me ask all of you but i'll start with matthew how surprised have you been at the harsh rhetoric coming from joe biden and his administration and is there a risk that they're overshooting the mark i personally don't think that they're overshooting the mark i haven't been surprised because i think that over the past several years there's been a lot of question about what u.s foreign policy is and what matters to the united states when it comes to these issues and i think this was really the goal that biden was pursuing with this was to say you know we do have values we're going to fight for these values we're going to stand up for these values globally and to make clear that what we've seen over the past several years is an anomaly and that it's not all just about trade uh it's not all just about making money that the united states is still going to stand up for people's rights for human rights when it thinks it's necessary so i think that the real audience was not so much the regime in beijing or vladimir putin but the the public at large the the the global public as it were so biden essentially saying he's the not trump hangzhou what do you think were you surprised at the harshness of this rhetoric and do you think it's overshooting um i was both surprised and not surprised not surprised in a sense that because biden has already made it very clear before he became president that um that both parties will have to be harsh on china so he already said that so i wasn't surprised that um the rhetoric has become so harsh but i was also a little bit surprised in the sense that um the meeting in alaska the way that they spoke to each other in such a such a blunt way a clear way i was actually a little bit surprised by that um and i think it's important to to for the us it was an important step for the us to actually make it clear to um its audience in the domestic market so to say in the us and also to the audience in the eu um that the us is back i think it's it was the right step for the usd we're going to take a look at that meeting in anchorage in a moment but first of all same question to you mata were you surprised and uh what do you think about overshooting i was a little surprised i mean international politics and security questions there is sometimes a difference between being right and being wise you can be right about calling vladimir putin a killer or i would doubt that that the gross and harsh human rights violation already is something like a genocide but but even that the question is is it wise to do it what purpose does it serve and if you on on one hand serve the the rhetoric of the communist chinese party because they say all what the west is doing it's an unsuccessful regime what the only weapon they have is the morality and they try to to try to have the moral supremacy about our system by pointing to that it might feed just the rhetoric without any consequence if you afterwards sit down with them and talk business then what what really what kind of aim are you following with and we want to talk in a moment about whether it's still possible to talk a business then particularly in the wake of the january attack on the u.s capitol both russia and china have depicted the u.s as weakened by political divisions pandemic mismanagement and economic instability biden's reassertion of america's moral authority appears designed to prove those accusations wrong even at the price of increasingly bitter relations it's the first meeting of top u.s and chinese diplomats of the biden era the mood is frosty we'll also discuss our deep concerns with actions by china including in xinjiang hong kong taiwan cyber attacks on the united states economic coercion toward our allies each of these actions threaten the rules-based order that maintains global stability in response china brings up racism in the us rejecting any interference in its domestic affairs our hope is that when talking about universal values or international public opinion the u.s side will think about whether it feels entitled to say those things because it does not represent the world it only represents the government of the united states two days earlier joe biden made serious accusations against the russian president in a television interview you know vladimir putin you think he's a killer i do so what price must he pay the price he's going to pay well you'll see shortly the u.s president didn't clarify whether he was alluding to the poisoning of russian opposition leader alexey navalny the response from moscow was calm as biden said we know each other personally what would i reply to him i would say i wish you health i say that without any irony but what is joe biden hoping to achieve with this harsh rhetoric matthew i want to pass that question right on to you you said clearly biden's signaling he's the non-trump but beyond that what is he looking to achieve and what is he likely to achieve well i think one of the main goals he has is to bring other western allies on board to the u.s position on china and i think that is something where he's actually already had some progress because there had been divisions within sort of the western alliance about how to approach china and whether to look the other way in the face of abuses like the ones against the uyghurs and others and i think part of this is really directed at europe in particular to say we need you to come with us as we approach china going forward because there's been a wholesale repositioning i would say of the united states strategy towards china that began under trump already a realization that the wealth that china now has and that it has built up over the last 20 or 30 years is not going to result in a more democratic china which is what many liberals in the west had hoped and there is i think broad consensus now uh in the united states and in much of europe that that's just not going to happen china is an authoritarian state and we need to be prepared for the consequences of that and act accordingly and i think this is what his mission is let's talk a little bit about what the chinese reaction was we heard after those meetings in alaska from the american side that behind closed doors the tone was more civil what did chinese leadership have to say about the tone behind closed doors if anything well i think for for china um they didn't expect they didn't expect it to be um so that the term would be would have been so harsh and i think for china it is now clear that the u.s is not going to be um it's ally i think because before before the meeting um there were still a little bit of hope that uh the u.s might actually still be its allies because it's bad enough or it's not trump it's like a little bit more um predictable maybe that he might be a little bit more um he might go just go a little bit more like the usual diplomatic track but at the end i think after this meeting it's just very clear that the u.s is it's not going down that route that it's going to compete with china and what are you hearing from china in terms of whether they think it will remain as confrontational as it apparently was in anchorage uh will that will there in fact be more trade war more trade conflict uh essentially more of the trump approach i think china is ready it is ready for that um and especially because of this uh wolf warrior diplomacy that it already has been um trying to do since um 2017 it has increasingly uh been harsh on other neighbors when like when they were attacked and they have tried to um like try to show um the chinese people that tried that china is now strong that it can compete with the western neighbors and i think china is going down that route that it's focusing much more on the domestic market that it's um it's um driving itself away from cooperation with the west but try to look into the domestic market how can how can um people from the what what do chinese people think in like about china it's much more important for them malta biden himself has repeatedly said that there are certain topics and areas on which the u.s must cooperate with russia and china be it arms control be it climate change do you think that a pragmatic approach that oscillates between confrontation and cooperation is actually still possible side by side with this maximum pressure rhetoric it is maximum pressure there's nothing in in international relationship that is more powerful than accusing someone of committing genocide this is the strongest language ever on the other hand i strongly hope that both sides the chinese and the americans do know what you just said that they have to cooperate on climate on on a lot of a lot of topics so i think that the chinese side knows very well that it is more or less pure symbolism rhetoric symbolism would have said because on on one hand what what kind of morality are you showing if you're accusing somebody of of committing genocide and talking to him for two long days in anchorage in alaska and uh said we had some intensive talks and things like that that doesn't sound very convincing matthew russia and the u.s actually very quickly decided to restart the nuclear arms agreement start after bine's inauguration now following this accusation against vladimir putin russia recalled its ambassador from washington for the first time in decades won't this bitter turn in relations make further arms control negotiations uh more difficult uh no i think i think just the opposite in fact i mean i my my read is that the russians are probably relieved by this because now they know okay this is the position of the white house and and previously it wasn't it wasn't clear what the position was going to be and i think the chinese are probably also relieved in the sense that they know who they're dealing with and what they're dealing with and the russians will look at it very pragmatically they benefit from the star treaties just as much as as the us nobody wants to you know be investing all of this money in the nuclear capability certainly the russians don't i mean people forget that the russia itself as an economy is roughly the size of spain uh it is it is not on the same plane as the united states it is not on the same plane as china and so this is really actually extending a hand to russia saying look we'll renew this treaty and there's no reason that they shouldn't take them up on that and i think that's also true of of the chinese because you know china also has uh pressures that it has to deal with with its domestic population and the less money they have to spend on on nuclear which costs a lot the better let me pick up on the point you made about russia and china being in very different places in terms of their power trajectories our title and much of the media reporting about this new harsh rhetoric hangzhou does lump together china and russia but the fact is russia is a declining power and china is absolutely a rising one what impact do you think that would have in terms of the response that we're likely to see from china for example i think i think what we're going to see is that china and russia is going to be closer it's they're pushing them closer together that but china and russia they are already cooperating in different things like uh they have weapon they trade weapons and um they they already have the kind of relationship and i think with the harsh rhetoric from the us and then with the west it's going to push them closer together even if that's uh that might be just symbolic but it just gives them the chance to stand closer together and malta one thing that both countries also very much share is insistence that other powers including multilateral institutions like the united nations have no right to meddle in their internal affairs is that what biden essentially is doing here and are these countries abuses of human rights ultimately nearly impossible to influence from outside the question is how strong is the language i mean the reaction that we just saw from vladimir putin to what biden said was was quite telling because they know each other because biden was in the white house and when obama was president barack obama was president when the crimean was annexed and when the war in in ukraine starts and things like this so um and it was condemned to that time as well by barack obama and in the backyard was uh joe biden saying yes what you did was morally condemnable and so on and so on so putin knows him very well and knows what he what he thinks about those words and wishing him health is the i mean uh he's he's clearly appealing to his older age and things like that so it is kind of um very self-assertive reaction to what biden said matthew there have been a lot of rounds of sanctions in the past now the u.s uh is imposing yet another round uh on russia but frankly so far neither harsh rhetoric nor sanctions appear to have really had any influence on russia's behavior why should things be any different now well again you know they might not be different in terms of russia's behavior it might be different however in terms of showing the rest of the world that what russia is doing or what china is doing is not in order and there needs to be some kind of reaction to it and i think that public opinion is very important in these questions and it does hit obviously the individuals against whom the sanctions are uh targeted uh but sanctions also give you a negotiating chip later on there's something that people forget there's never a or very rarely a case where a country like the united states imposes sanctions on another country and then the other country just sort of you know gives up whatever it's doing but what it does do is that later on in negotiations we've seen this with russia by removing the sanctions gets you in the negotiation um it allows you to convince them to do something that you don't want them to do so i think that's that's how i would look at it it is not the silver bullet by any means let's talk a little bit about where europe is in all of this biden in fact has repeatedly paired his motto that the us is back with the vow to work together with america's european allies and indeed earlier this week the eu joined the us britain and canada in imposing sanctions against china for the first time in 30 years as recently as december the eu signed a new investment agreement with china to the dismay of the united states now it is sanctioning the country for human rights violations against the muslim oil minority independent human rights organizations estimate that one hundred thousand oygas and other muslims are being detained and mistreated in camps in xinjiang for a long time the eu's top priority was trade with beijing now following the example of the us brussels is also playing hardball we have taking decisive actions against responsible for serious human rights violations and abuses in six countries the census that the council adopted today concern 11 individuals and four entities from china north korea libya south sudan eritrea and russia for their role in persecuting lgbt plus people brussels is stepping up sanctions against russian officials most recently the imposed sanctions on russia over the poisoning of now imprisoned kremlin opponent alexei navalny by imposing sanctions the u.s and the european union are slowly tightening the screws but how much further is europe really willing to go let me put that question uh to mata malte in your opening statement you said that none of the three powers russia china or the u.s has a real interest in escalation but the fact is that is a very much a european perspective europe in general and germany in particular have repeatedly made it clear that they are very concerned about being forced to essentially take sides in a u.s china cold war and possibly also in u.s hostility versus vis-a-vis russia do you think that's what's happening here is is the eu now with these latest uh sanctions against china essentially being forced to take sides in a way yes and i would i would always say uh if it's through through partnerships or through nato or through other institutions there's always a very strong link between european union and the united states and it and even if it's for the security of europe i mean we are still relying on on on the american nuclear umbrella for that so there is and we are democracies that binds us together we share the same values the question is um the threat of escalation uh we have the experience from the cold war and we were always afraid about escalating things and um all three countries a member of the united nations security council all three are nuclear powers so there is never a military solution for any kind of conflict so i i think that sanctions became just another tool of international diplomacy it doesn't really hurt the country it never functions very well with one exception that was south africa but all other countries like from sudan through libya through serbia all others never it never worked it does it will not bring the chinese communist party to to collapse let me ask feng shui she agrees with that and is there joint action on the part of the u.s and europe that could influence china's behavior um i do agree that um the sanctions are largely symbolic because it was just um against a few people which won't bring much effect really but um i think that um the action itself uh the symbolic action itself it's a big step because for europe it has it was so reluctant to actually take any stance and as you've already said it's the first time in 30 years and i think that's a big and i think that's a big step it's a big decision for them to take and in terms of and um to answer your question if that's going to change china's behavior i don't think these sanctions can change china's behavior to be honest but um if the u.s continues this course and to con and if they can connect uh the western powers to get uh western power together and people who have the same country sorry who which have the same beliefs and combine that economic power together i think that's going to have an effect but in this triangle let's say china on one hand united states and europe on the other hand europe is the weakest link so there is a temptation for the chinese to say if if you want a kind of battle we go for the weakest link not for the strong competitor united states matthew how far do you think europe will be willing to go uh particularly with that awareness of how dependent it is on on china's market well i think germany is very dependent on the chinese market the rest of europe is not as dependent on chinese market china's the largest trading partner now for the eu i believe although it's mainly because they export so much from china they're not selling as much to china as they are to the united states for example the united states is a more important export market for europe as a whole so uh europe is as marty said very reliant on the us in various ways especially for its security i think that uh the fact that it has kind of come around on china is uh more a sign that they are accepting the reality as it is and that's why things like sanctions i would argue are important because it creates moral clarity and i think as recently as december when the eu was doing this investment deal with china there was a feeling of well the chinese you know they're not nice to the uyghurs but you know they're they're also you know the the americans aren't nice to certain people too and and there's sort of bad things going on everywhere which is you know kind of a kind of justification i think in a lot of europeans minds for continuing on the previous course that has gone out the window now so you can see that biden's approach the pressure that lincoln is is exerting behind the pressure is already having an effect very briefly almost out of time but quickly from you and also from malta north stream bringing it back to russia is it time if we're talking about serious pressure and working together with the u.s for germany to put the gas pipeline nordstrom that essentially is a deal with russia to rest i think it is i don't think germany will do it because it has refused to do it for so long melted yes uh germany it is um relies on north stream because they get rid of nuclear power and coal powered so this gas is the only thing that's left to fulfill his needs uh and energy-wise so it's not going to happen in your view thank you very much to all of you for being with us uh here today and thanks to all of you out there for tuning in see you soon [Music] [Music] you

Channel: DW News

Views: 221,694

Keywords: joe biden, us china, us russia, putin biden, putin killer, biden foreign policy, us foreign policy, foreign policy strategy

Id: yOd0DhLfI3E

Length: 26min 4sec (1564 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 25 2021