Biden warns Russia and China: But is Europe on board? | To the Point

joe biden has concluded his first trip abroad as u.s president in an exhausting schedule he met with friends and he met with foes in intensive talks with his russian counterpart vladimir putin in geneva biden cast himself as an advocate of liberal values-based democracy he also highlighted what he sees as the military and economic threat posed by russia and above all china so on to the point we ask biden warns russia and china but is europe on board well thanks very much indeed for joining us on the show where my guests here in the studio are lyanna fix a russia expert from the kerber foundation who says the biden putin summit is not only about confrontation it is also an opportunity for more stability between washington and moscow also with us is matthew karnichnik chief europe correspondent for politico his opinion if the eu fails to achieve a common approach to russia and china with the u.s the west is doomed and a warm welcome too to suji van brunisum from dw's asia desk who argues that the u.s china and russia have more in common with each other and europe should not take sides interesting comments all three thanks very much thank you very much two for being here and i'm going to begin with you uh matthew it's been a very intense week of diplomacy for joe biden in europe are we in a better place now than we were before all the talking began i think so i think he made clear that the united states remains very dedicated to europe and wants to keep the alliance intact and is hoping that the europeans will join him in in confronting both russia and china in the years ahead and there seems to be at least an openness to these ideas in terms of the atmosphere with russia i think he also succeeded in calming the waters a bit i don't think the two of them they're not buddies they're not going to be best buddies they didn't look into one another's eyes and see their souls they shook hands and had a fairly uh cordial but frank meeting i would say they smiled and they smiled with putin isn't that easy liana you talked about it being the pro the meeting in prospect behind you said it shouldn't it should be about cooperation not just confrontation now everybody is talking about uh the us and russia entering what is called strategic stability dialogue i gather this is very important for the insiders i think it's very important that you explain it for us because it's right at the middle of what we're doing here what we're talking about yeah that's exactly why the summit was a success because the us and russia decided to focus on those areas where there are most dangers in most risks and the area of nuclear weapons and limiting nuclear weapons the last tweety then you start to it was just prolonged last minute when biden came into office that's on the agenda and that is meant by strategic stability limiting nuclear weapons addressing new threats like cyber threats and new weapon systems that are developed right now this is one of the most dangerous areas in the u.s russia relationship for all of us and that is why it is so important that there was agreement they repeated the wagon gorbachev statement a nuclear war should not be fought and cannot be won that's a very important sign for both sides it's not the most juicy or most sexy topic but it is an incredibly important topic for the security of basically everyone on this world and susie just coming back to the mood president biden is sometimes seen as a bit of a sort of a soft-spoken diplomat but he can you know he he can be more confrontational how do you see him i see biden as a very inexperienced politician he has decades of experience as a politician first as president than as vice as well as in local politics and he's very careful and calculated and cautious everything he says largely you know it's scripted it's edited and he's a huge contrast to donald trump his predecessor and i think that um because trump alienated a lot of the international community with his um characteristics being very loud outspoken i think biden has a lot of appeal actually as a politician in many countries outside of the us for example in asia the way he kind of presents himself you know with a lot of east asian cultures it's a very um it has a it gives more respect and i think people uh also need to pay attention to that yeah he's very much made the power struggle between the us and china his central or one of the central focuses of his foreign policy what do you make of that i think that biden has been very very clever it was a very smart move i think we can all agree that communicating with putin and even though you said it wasn't the most juicy sexy kind of move i think it is a huge uh move forward in progress to kind of buddy up with russia for the first time in a long time because we all know the elephant in the room is china biden is mostly concerned about china than he is about russia at the moment and russia is traditionally china's ally and so to kind of now be more open to cooperation you know just to attend the summit i think he has put the whole of beijing kind of at edge and everyone's nervous in china yes you don't look as though you buy you buy all of that matthew well i think that uh putin is actually under a lot of pressure when it comes to china you know it's worth remembering that russia is a fairly uh small economy uh it's about as big as the economy of spain they have a lot of nuclear weapons which makes them uh very dangerous but i don't think that anybody really thought that putin would wanted to start a nuclear war with the west or even this kind of arms race like we saw in the cold war because that's also very expensive although there have been some worries in the united states that the uh russians are developing um new hypersonic weapons uh that would threaten the west be that as it may i think the uh the real issue is is china i think the problem that putin has though with china is that he doesn't want to be too dependent on china so the degree that to which he can calm things with the west probably the better also also in his view to be a little bit pessimistic i think we are actually we have to admit that we are already in an arms ways because both russia and the united states are modernizing the nuclear arsenals and are developing these weapons systems which is just to say that the focus of the summit was so important because we are already at a stage in this area where everyone is in danger if some weapon systems are further developed and that's also why cyber was such an important element of the summit biden gave putin a list of 16 critical infrastructure areas that should not be targeted by cyber attacks again sounds very technical but it's incredibly important to our daily life i guess the problem and the reason i wouldn't uh sleep so soundly is that the chinese are also developing these weapons and they are not party to these arm control agreements that date back to the cold war should be brought in into in the future most definitely yeah okay well let's just listen to get to get a flavor of the of the two presidents as they spoke in geneva let's uh listen to first of all joe biden and then we'll uh hear what uh president putin had to say and if in fact they violate these basic norms we will respond cyber he knows in the cyber way number two i i think that the last thing he wants now is the cold war well vladimir putin said generally we understand what our american partners are talking about and they understand what we mean when we refer to red lines but he added the two sides had largely avoided touching on device divisive issues [Music] lyanna what are the red lines that emerged from the talks there were much talked about in advance what what you know can you pin them down a short list election meddling a huge red line for the united states cyber attacks on critical infrastructure as i just mentioned big red line obviously human rights are also a very important topic and biden brought up the the the case of navalny but that is difficult to set a red line because how can you react if someone crosses the switch i mean he made a very clear statement exactly that it would be very um very problematic if navalny dies in prison but again what is the reaction that you can take to this action so what they focused on were areas where they really could make progress and the other areas were discussed but the focus now is on certain areas and to see whether positive developments take place there and from then we can take it to other areas possibly and so gee how important do you think it is that there is a growing clash between the political cultures of the the western model as it were and then the eastern model of you know illiberal democracy i think that for example opponents of eurocentrism and imperialism would say that it wouldn't be so much as a clash of political systems and cultures because china has always been for example communist states since 1949 and i think that all three of these economies both russia the us and china have huge human rights violations and they have very different political systems but all three are struggling with serving social justice back home and i think that you know the main issue is actually the competition between competing economies by three countries that are led you know by three men that have you know frankly a lot of hubris arrogance a bit of ego if i might say and you know they all want to be at the top of the world you know all three of them and we are framing this as a kind of a clash of values over the world you know that's kind of dividing everyone between east and west between um you know europe and the us and asia but in fact it's uh i think people should pay a little bit more attention that what we're actually seeing is a competition between three very greedy countries all three of them and um all three countries have huge human rights abuses and social injustices well uh many ordinary americans might be asking themselves who the big enemy is these days for president biden there is no doubt that the greatest long-term strategic challenge to america is china a group photo with friends the us will desperately need them in the future now the nation's primary rival is china a powerful opponent the nato summit sent out the message to the world that the ranks are tightly closed before the summit the pentagon had already ordered u.s troops to ship their focus to china some of the measures will likely evoke the ire of chinese president xi jinping like the planned trade agreement with taiwan for example and a new multi-trillion dollar infrastructure plan is meant to compete with china's belt and road initiative beyond that massive investments in technology are meant to encourage greater independence from chinese high-tech products biden also signed an executive order banning americans from investing in 59 chinese companies but not all of the us's partners agree with this hardline approach china is a rival on many issues and at the same time china is also a partner on many issues can president biden rely on his allies in the confrontation with china well we'll address that question in just a minute but i'd like to go back to suji and just a few days ago there was a headline in the atlantic magazine that caught my eye joe biden worries that china might win is he right to worry or what would what would it mean for china to win i think what biden means and what the u.s is seeking is they're they're worried about china's global influence and chinese expansion and they're worried about chinese companies you know overtaking american companies which have always been very successful the us has always in their view been at the top of world leadership and i i guess they don't want to share that position and china is now for the first time since xi jinping came to power he's kind of transformed china so rapidly because china used to be such a poor impoverished country always with human rights violations always for decades china has always had a lot of human rights violations but the problem is now china has actually become economically very successful in addition to mass human rights violations and so my question i always ask is you know when china had tiananmen massacre when there was the great famine of china where 45 million people died and in the cultural revolution when up to a million people died you know the u.s no one in the international community interfered and came to to help the people of china and but china was a poor country they didn't have any high technology they didn't have any scientific innovation at the time people were leaving china you know in um in the millions we have a huge chinese diaspora around the world and no one asked them why are there so many chinese people around the world i think i don't think that biden is as cynical in his approach to china i think he really has a deep-seated belief that human rights do matter that this is and he mentioned at the press conference that this is a part of us foreign policy so i think he does not only see it in terms of a great power geopolitical competition with china but he sees it as a competition of systems especially since the chinese system has become more and more autocratic in the last year so it has taken a backward development to to to where we've been in the past and this is something which is not only a power play but which is something which could be fundamental for his foreign policy that he places an emphasis on democracy versus autocracy and on challenging challenging china if it becomes even more autocratic well i would just say i don't think that the united states necessarily is worried about china becoming number one china is going to become number one it's going to become the largest economy in the world that's inevitable although not on a per capita basis that may never happen i think the issue here i mean you mentioned all these historic uh wrongs that were committed against the chinese people i think what the difference now is is that china is threatening its neighbors it's threatening its neighborhood it's become a threat well beyond china's borders and i think this is what has worried the united states i also wouldn't mention the united states and its human rights abuses to the degree that those exist in the same breath as china or russia as far as i know the united states is not operating any concentration camps at the moment like the one in xinjiang i think the u.s tried to partner with china and there was a hope in the west that through economic development and through prosperity china would join the family of democratic nations that there would be a hunger in the chinese society for democratic reforms and that hasn't happened i mean it exists clearly in china but it has been snuffed out so this is why it has become this rivalry of systems and i this is why uh biden is concerned and not just by this is a bipartisan issue in the united states you do and what should biden do i think he's together with the europeans he needs to bring the europeans on side the united states has tried to do this i think with some success by explaining to the europeans and convincing them of the danger that exists and we saw this in this debate over 5g network technology that the chinese company huawei was very eager to sell in europe and is eager to sell in europe and the united states came and tried to convince the european allies that if they were to take on this technology that they would be opening themselves to substitutes going forward by the chinese and they've had mixed success on that front but i think at least this issue of china is taking a much more central position in the european debate than it did even a year ago and i think just to add on this it's also so difficult to advance this debate in europe because of of the public mood and of the public perception of china which is only shifting very slowly so china is still not perceived as a threat in germany and also in many other european countries and then we have in addition the economic interests obviously the business interests with china and this together um is something which sort of politicians have to consider when they take a stronger approach to china to take their population with them and to explain to them why we have to change our china policy and can you imagine xi jinping going into listening mode with uh joe biden in the way that vladimir putin apparently did in the in the last 24 hours or so well i mean it depends on what sort of if there are any summits planned on this level i mean that would be a huge a huge um a huge occasion i think what was good about the biden putin summit is that they established a personal relationship which is not about trust which is not about any romantic friendship inclinations but it's very much about pragmatic business what can we get done together what where do we not agree and let's try to advance in those areas where we can agree when you say we we're often talking about germany and the i mean the case against germany in this instance is that uh his germany wants to sell cars to china he wants its pipeline with russia it's distracted by an an upcoming election and there's very little commitment to making common calls with uh with joe biden in terms of defense spending where does that leave germany's i wouldn't say there's very little commitment germany has raised its defense spending not to the levels that the united states would see but the fact is germany is an exporting nation and always has been it is very dependent on export it has an aging population it can't easily just say okay we're not going to export anything more to china when you have big companies like vw and others that are almost completely dependent on on china and the united states is also economically dependent on china to a degree so i think this is why it's it's not useful to look at this through the frame of the cold war and to say there's going to be another cold war because these systems are already very closely intertwined and the west needs to find a way to deal with china without uh completely cutting it off because that's just that's just not possible china is already many times larger than the soviet union ever was in terms of the size of its economy and it's just growing even more mm-hmm and sushi what you know what what can china reasonably expect from the europeans in the in the years to come specifically from the germans after their election in the nearer future i think we also have to see what happens with our upcoming elections here in germany you know for example with the greens upcoming and germany and china they have to cooperate and everyone in germany knows that because climate change is also a huge problem and everyone knows that climate change cannot be addressed without china in the discussion and so i think and also germany and china has very strong trade relations and neither one of them benefits from you know any kind of political dispute so i think both countries need to really take into account you know social issues such as climate change and trade and business and all the benefits they get from each other and kind of find ways to cooperate just like putin and biden did and china should more get involved with european discussions you know get involved with more talks with europe so that uh people can kind of you know focus a little bit away from this competition of who's number one superpower i mean you know there shouldn't really be any superpower you know we should all find better ways to improve human rights to improve trade and china has to be part of that discussion so tell me how perceptions in china about about issues around sort of liberal values and western values what we like to call western values how those are how those perceptions are changing given that there's so much more movement for chinese people in the global situation okay i think that for example europe and the us would benefit from um from understanding chinese culture more from understanding the history more the language i mean the reason i think people feel so alienated now in germany is because we don't actually have much contact direct contact with china and chinese people and so if we did we would have this understanding that for a lot of chinese people especially my mother's generation for example china went from complete poverty to this very successful booming economy and so i think people to have this tendency in china to kind of have this compromise okay maybe we don't have freedom of speech it's an oppressive state but we have access to technology we can find we have this middle class in china now and chinese people can study abroad now and travel before uh you know a decade ago china was completely closed people didn't have these privileges like the people have in europe and in the us and suddenly they want a taste of this pie as well you know and so i think chinese people don't want to go back uh backwards in their mindset and um they are you know i'm not saying they're happy to kind of go along with things but um you know they the it is a fact that a lot of quality of life a lot of people has improved and i think people associate this with xi jinping and um all his social policies he's made in china yeah i think just to add i think the problem really is that um it seems that leadership in beijing is not really interested in making human rights part of any dialogue or of any agenda and while there is a lot of dialogue going on with china and you're absolutely right that there are many areas where it should go on there's very clearly a very strong pushback from beijing on all issues where um the west and europe criticizes russia criticizes russia criticizes china and and this is something which should not be acceptable to an open dialogue between partners and countries that some areas are really forcefully tried by beijing to be cut out of dialogues to be cut out of negotiations sanctions against members of the european parliament who speak out against the human rights situation and that is something which is so concerning that dialogue with china as important as it is has become so much more difficult in the last years due to an increasingly autocratic development at home and that is something which is so they've also changed their entire approach to diplomacy china used to have this sort of quiet diplomacy and didn't want to really be noticed too much uh that was sort of my my feeling in in europe in particular and now they have these so-called wolf warrior diplomats who go out there uh just attacking people left and right so i mean that has been a really a fundamental change okay thank you very very much indeed for all those impressions all those views great stuff i wish we had just a little bit more time we've been talking about china russia the us and the moral issues surrounding the diplomacy between those countries thanks very much for joining us and if you've enjoyed the program as much as i have come back next week bye-bye cheers [Music] [Music] [Music] you

Channel: DW News

Views: 205,329

Keywords: DW News, Russia, China, Biden, EU, European Union, Biden in Europe, Biden meets Putin, G7, Ursula von der Leyen, Putin, Biden in Brussels

Id: 3-Zqgolna4w

Length: 26min 9sec (1569 seconds)

Published: Thu Jun 17 2021