Being Métis

in April the Supreme Court of Canada handed down a game-changing decision for matey people across this country in what's known as the Daniels case the unanimous ruling squarely placed a constitutional responsibility on the federal government for six hundred thousand matey and non-status Indians who had previously been all but invisible in the eyes of the state what does this mean to both the status and identity of the more than 86,000 matey living here in Ontario well joining us now for that Gary Lipinski he is president of the matey nation of Ontario jason batten legal counsel for the Maine tea nation of Ontario and Kelly campagnolo a lawyer and volunteer at Toronto and York Region matey Council and it's great to have all three of you here tonight for this discussion Jason to you first we pose the question in the introduction the significance and implication of the court's decision what do you think well it's a watershed for matey when Canada was created as a country jurisdictions were divided between feds and the provinces and they've been playing I don't think it's a hot potato it's more just an avoidance tactic of trying to hide from their responsibilities and pointing fingers at each other so what the court answered was a question of in federal jurisdiction armaiti included and they emphatically answered yes and so that jurisdictional wasteland that may t have been in for the last hundred and fifty years is now over and we know whose door to turn to to get answers and to also finally do what is necessary as a part of Canadians Constitution is it's the unfinished business of Confederation which is dealing with the matey people as a people you use the expression jurisdictional wasteland that's right out of their decision isn't it that's what justice dibela wrote and that is essentially what's happened to this game finger-pointing game plain that's happened matey just fall further and further through the cracks so whether it's in health whether it's in education whether it's in supports that are provided to other Aboriginal peoples it's willful blindness on both parts and what's that's happened is a hundred and fifty years of denial Gary what do you think that means in terms of funding services whatever previously didn't happen that now legally can happen well I think it is a fundamentally important game changer in the sense that you know most of I think most Canadians and most listeners wouldn't wouldn't have an appreciation for the inequities that exist between maytee people First Nations and the inner with people the other indigenous peoples of Canada so you know we have been going to the federal government for you know one could almost arguably say since camp before Canada with Canada the days of real to have our proper place in Confederation properly recognized and throughout the centuries and decades you know the federal government has said no you're not our responsibility go talk to the provinces which was left this huge void from 80 people in not being able to access many of the benefits or programs and services that the federal government provides and as Jason was alluding to those include you know funding for your your children your post-secondary funding uninsured health benefits access to dental and and and vision care and and those you know basic necessities that so many people do so these are really bread-and-butter issues and maytee people have not been able to access them and so this decision you know takes that roadblock away where now the federal government can't you know pass the hot potato if you like and say you're not our responsibility clearly there's an illness in the federal government to negotiate in good faith with maytee governments throughout the homeland on how to deal with these service inequities have you been in touch with your First Nations and or intimate colleagues to see how they feel about this I haven't personally but you know I would hope that you know the making nation myself even is one of the leaders has always said we need to be respectful volunteers people's First Nations rights and leaders need to be respected I was treaties need to be respected Canada has seen the whole North change you know with the settlement of the Nunavut and have an indigent the end what people have their issues dealt with so I would hope that that same courtesy and respect is showed to the matey nation now that that roadblock is done and and recognized that Canada is made up of three wonderfully unique indigenous peoples the meaty the Inuit and the First Nations each of us has a place in this country each of us has a proud contribution we've made to the development his country and each of us needs to reconcile with Canada on how we continue to go forward as a people within this country going forward Kelly I don't have to tell you that not every non-indigenous Canadian understands or believes that there is great distinction among the three different indigenous peoples so maybe you could help educate us right now on what you see as the distinctiveness of the maytee people culture ways related to the other - sure so I think it's really important to recognize the fact that meaty people are a distinct cultural group there are many things that make maytee culture so exciting and so interesting we're known for the sash jigging mischief it's the traditional language and food is a huge part of that as well I've recently learned how does jig and I'm actually terrible at it but I'm working at it and I think that food and community is a huge part of that I've recently done a lot with the Maine tea community in the Toronto and York region and it's been fantastic to see the youth being so engaged and interested in learning more about their culture and more about their roots and I just recently did a drum making workshop so it's it's a whole bunch of things that are unique and interesting and encompass michi culture overall now for those who don't know what's that that's a sash yes that is the matey sash it's it's hard to make oh yeah first absolutely I think the I missed a recent event where youth learned how to actually make the sash and the colours within the sash are are representative of different things you can find a sash that's black that can represent some of the darker times in matey history the red the blue the green they all represent different things what would you say Gary makes matey culture unique and distinctive from the two other indigenous cultures in the country well every culture has its own set of set of values and traditions and Kellie's that listed off lots of them you know what I think for the matey people you know part of you know part of Canada's history is is is also so much of who the mate you were you know instrumental in the fur trade you know one could arguably we do make the argument that we were the the first drivers of Canada's economy the fur trade economy which Canada grew up in around that the fur trade routes you know matey were instrumental in establishing those four trade routes the waterways throughout Ontario westward and then when you hit the prairies with the Red River carts I guess we should explain mating comes from the Latin word of mixed mixed peoples peoples yes because you are a mix of First Nations and European originally but through a process called ethnogenesis you know clearly I clearly were identified as a separate and distinct Society recognized by outsiders and you know as a different than First Nations cousins or the European cousins declared ourselves as a distinct people reckon and we meet all the indicators in international law that clearly we've identified ourselves as distinct people Jason you wanted to add well I think I think that that's one of the fallacies about matey doesn't just mean to mix there's these distinct communities that emerged in Canada prior to Canada becoming Canada so as Canada went westward it wasn't just a bulldozer there were communities there that pushed back and whether it's in mica Bay and Sioux sainte-marie in 1850 or whether it's in the Red River these communities of with their own history identities and cultures essentially we're here prior to Canada becoming Canada and that's the problem people do think it's the bulldozer people don't understand that people think it's that this bulldozer came westward right and then we're all Canada what Canada is this wonderful experiment of reconciling diversity within unity and the stories of the matey First Nations in any wit aren't told there's there's that that were I think we're going through a rebalancing the court uses the language of reconciliation but it's owning our truths of what this country was based upon and I think one of this country's original sins is how Aboriginal peoples were dealt with and the Daniels decision allows the platform for those discussions of a relationship interrupted or never began to finally begin with the matey Kelly I want to ask you about a time before you were born because I think it's fair to say before you were born many maybe people in Canada hid their identity they did not want to be known as matey why not I think it's it's really hard for people because part of colonization was to make people assimilate and to not be proud of their culture so you know in in workplaces people weren't encouraged and weren't told to celebrate celebrate their ancestry in fact they probably were discriminated against because of their ancestry and I don't support your grandfather yeah I was just gonna say a perfect example for me is my grandfather he played in the NHL for the Bruins as well as the Detroit Red Wings rial Cheverus and no one knew he was matey in fact he hit it so it was kind of something that you know he has fans everywhere across Canada and it's quite funny that they still exist but yeah the fact none of them know that he's maintained I guess this is kind of like a coming-out moment for him and well he's a kind of a francophone name so you might not assume that he was matey right and why did he not want to give up that identity to his teammates or to other people at the time I think it's hard to say because he he died before I was born he struggled really with alcoholism and I think its kind of goes to the intergenerational impacts that our people face when you're told not to be your true self and to hide your identity um it comes out in some ways you know it's gonna come out one way or the other and embracing your true self and being able to celebrate your culture is one part of reconciliation and we're getting there slowly and surely and I think but the Daniels decision is one step further to opening those doors to true reconciliation and I mean maybe if it was a different day and my grandfather was alive today and he was playing in the NHL today he'd be a proud Aboriginal man he'd be proud and he'd be rich yeah yeah that's another thing let's let's follow up on that cultural awakening we've got some stats here Sheldon if you would let's put these up here and we'll share them with our audience between 1996 and 2006 the maytee had the highest growth rates of all Aboriginal identity groups their population nearly doubled then between 2006 and 2011 it rose by 16% in 2011 we've got almost half a million people identifying themselves as matey they represented about a third of the total Aboriginal population and 1.4 percent of the total Canadian population the largest population of maytee is in Alberta nearly a hundred thousand followed by yes right here in the province of Ontario more than 86,000 matey currently have the highest employment rate and highest rates of post-secondary completion among all indigenous Canadians which leads me to Jason and asking the question why do you think today more and more Canadians are prepared to identify themselves as matey unlike in the time of Kelly grandfather I think it's like cases like the Daniels case cases like the Powell Lee case there is this reawakening or this honesty about Aboriginal people are not something to be you know discriminated against or not respected for being the first peoples or founding partners in Confederation there's a renewed pride and so you have the next generation like Kelly and even myself I still remember going to grade school and learning that you know Riel was crazy and his people were traitors against Canada that's where'd you go to school Thunder Bay and that was that was the textbook in grade eight at the time and and so that that long that is not that look good thank you but but it but but that is but that is the narrative and I think that what these cases and what is happening whether it's the Royal Commission on Aboriginal peoples or the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is we're finally telling the true story of Canada and and I think that because of that people then look and say well I don't have to be ashamed I don't need to hide and they're coming and these communities didn't go away they may have went underground but that culture that language that identity still is there and I think now we're in a stage of its whether it's a Renaissance or whether it's a reawakening that people are more and more coming forward carry where you're born Fort Frances Ontario Fort Frances okay a northwestern Ontario West Ontario I'm not gonna call you the oldest person here I'll call you the most experienced and a seasoned person among our gathering here well thank you was a time in your life when you felt less proud of your background I was fortunate I guess to grow up in a large extended family so I had five five uncles in an aunt and and you know probably 40 or 50 cousins but you know and who all lived in very close proximity and so I've always had that you know large family support and then even if I get into the second cousin and that you know it gets into the hundreds pretty quickly and so growing up in a small town we all knew who we were and in and I think we were living a lifestyle more than we were you know great you know flying the mighty flag you know many of my uncle's were trappers and and on their whole lives or community commercial fisherman was Louie Riel a hero in your home he was certainly you know recognized as somebody who you know obviously fought for and defended matey but in all honesty even in my early days it wasn't about politics it was going out enjoying and living the meaty life so I wasn't politically involved in my earlier days but but you know the family was living it and I think that's what some you know ultimately that's where you know as a mate you later like to bring things back you know we're talking about a Daniel decision often I find too much can get lost in you know the political legal analysis of those decisions we always have to admire you try and bring it back to how does this affect people on the ground you know what are the practical realities of what's trying to be accomplished to these court cases or what is the objective to make a difference in people's lives well at the risk of getting entangled in more legalese I actually am going to read an excerpt now from another Supreme Court decision this is not from the Daniels case but another one five years ago and here's the excerpt from the Supreme Court of Canada Cunningham versus Alberta the history of the maytee is one of struggle for recognition of their unique identity as the mixed-race descendants of Europeans and Indians caught between two larger identities and cultures the maytee have struggled for more than two centuries for recognition of their own unique identity culture and governance and now I get to ask a really politically incorrect question that you all probably know is coming ok Kelly you first do do people ever look at you and say hmm you sure don't look matey oh my gosh every day all the time oh yeah because I am not shy about sharing either and people are not try at all equally so to say you're lying you can't be telling the truth there's no way or Aboriginal what do they think you are just Canadian maybe I've gotten a slew of things including Spanish like it goes across the board but I think the really interesting point when it comes to that is that typically I've never received that type of comment in from an someone within the indigenous community when I say I'm 80 I will never have a friend of mine who's First Nations are and you may be like I don't really believe you they accept it absolutely I feel like I kind of get those comment personally from other people who aren't identified who don't identify as Aboriginal and who are you know probably trying to make light of the situation or you know learn more about my background or where I'm from but at the same time I can't say that that comment isn't hurtful mm-hmm would you okay let's just go for this year would you acknowledge that you don't look like what most people typically think am 18 is supposed to look like absolutely because when you think of maytee in public media it's rarely a topic of conversation media form eighty people buy me tea people comes usually from them and oh and it's kind of we're just seeing this new resurgence of Aboriginal people being talked about in the popular media and programs like the agenda that are talking about Aboriginal people and their accomplishments in a positive light I think for me it's only been since the Olympics that I've kind of seen things shift but it's very new so I don't really blame people either with the lack of education that they receive and I think there's there's a misunderstanding mate you don't have a specific phenotype or a or a look there they are qualities they are people's they are communities and similar to how there's not a one look for the québécois there are these people who have shared a common culture identity history oh I hear you but there is a there there is a quote unquote look that people think of when they think of indigenous Canadians and you don't have that look and I think that but many First Nations who may live on and off reserve don't have that look either and I think that bias we need to talk about it we need to own it because that is so that that less then Aboriginal or not quite Aboriginal that is not who these peoples or these polities are and that's not what the courts are this is not a race-based quantum blood-quantum analysis that's what the Indian Act imposed upon people but that's not what those communities are and those communities are bound together not by blood quantum they're bound together by history culture identity and way of life and that is how they accept themselves and that's where it starts and then others need to accept that but do you do you operate from the assumption that people are not intend to be racist they just they don't know exactly i and i anything that's the process of reconciliation we need to have more discussion about that so people understand what these communities are of oh well is the goal of maytee to become First Nations absolutely not these are unique distinct his communities that emerged along the waterways of the fur trade and that they have their own story and also aspirations the goal also isn't to establish maytee reserves in all sorts of locations the desire is to actually sit down and negotiate how do we find our proper place within Confederation Gary have you ever had your matey ancestry question yes yeah actually all the time so it doesn't it doesn't matter if you're dark-skinned or light skinned you know people always use some you know they'll they come in with these preconceived notions so and I'll give you you know opposite extremes so one of the I was continually to chuckler this one tie me down here in Toronto I went to we used to go to this nice little mom-and-pop Italian restaurants beautiful beautiful woman elderly woman and so one day I was paying with the credit card and she looks at the credit card and she looks at me and she looks at this she's why does an Indian have a Ukrainian name first of all my dad would be upset because it's not a Ukrainian name either his ancestry his parents were Polish immigrants and my aunt's estate ancestry comes to my mother's side and and were not First Nations and so she got it wrong on both accounts but it's those types of things and then again your did you take offense at that no I just kind of laughed at it because you know here this week young woman certainly didn't mean any offense by it but it shows you the stereotype the views that some people have exactly then the other extreme is that sometimes I would go up to you know the north north western part of the province where I live you know pull into a First Nations Gas Bar or whatever to fill up and then you know have some young fellah meanwhile you just want to be Indian and so you get it from that side too because you know there's a perception that your matey while you're less than something and you're trying to be you know you're not trying to be First Nations we are proud of who we are we have a very rich proud culture history we've contributed so much to the building of the provinces and communities throughout Canada and that's the work that continues to be in front of the mighty nation is telling our story telling our history that's part of the you know why we're under stood sometimes as Canadians really don't know maytee contributed so much to the building of the communities provinces and countries that's the narrative we need to get out there and Kelly was hitting something that I think is important is that media doesn't pay a lot of attention to the makey makey issues your your stats showed that you know we're one third of Ontario's you know matey pop aboriginal population 86,000 there is something like 46,000 unreserved First Nations and you do any analysis you want to have the amount of programming the amount of time the amount of tension the amount of funding that goes towards that group and put it compared to anything else and I think anybody would be blown away now that's not to say that First Nations have some very serious and and an issue those issues need to be dealt with there needs to be support put in place for him but do a comparative an analysis you got 46,000 unreserve you've got 86,000 matey people living in his province and in any model you will see that the matey come up short I know else having said that would you acknowledge that their issues and their problems right now are infinitely more perilous than yours are I mean you don't have enough I don't know absolutely I some of the issues First Nations need leadership has to do with our extreme and urgent I give them full credits and province and feds need to deal with those urgently but at the same time you know you can't continue to ignore that matey are one of those people well in another you know thing that gets us upset quite often is again a misconception that matey people don't pay taxes and therefore you know this well what are they they get everything for free anyways well we don't our children don't get access to post-secondary education we don't get access to those uninsured health benefits in all these programs are available through the federal government yet matey people pay income tax property tax sales tax death tax GST and every other tax you can imagine and we don't receive the benefits of those programs back those fundings do not come back to support the needs of our people maybe they will now with this court decision well that's hold off on that for a second let me ask since I've asked a couple of weird questions already I'm gonna ask another one have you ever had a moment where you kind of and and I don't really know what this means but let's try it anyway where you kind of wished you look more stereotypically Aboriginal so that people would actually believe you when you said I really am I think for me it was kind of an evolution I wasn't very much very in touch with my culture growing up in high school I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was reading textbooks about Louie Riel being a traitor and my mother was always saying you know you need to come to community events with me you need to do this you need to do that it's like mom can you let it be like can you just let me do my thing but after I went to post-secondary education and had the opportunity to learn the true history of between Canada and Aboriginal people I kind of had an awakening and said oh my gosh I need to get into the peeny I need to learn more about my people I need to contribute in any way that I can and I think I was because I was so new I felt just insecure in general and I were wondering what my place was in the indigenous community and I worried that I wasn't to draw on what Jason said Aboriginal enough you're from porcupine yes where is that it's near Timmins Ontario don't Timmins yes the best of my knowledge there is no University in porcupine no where did you go I went to war for Laurier and Waterloo okay yeah so I'm away from home yeah absolutely and that's a struggle facing a lot of our youth is that you know we want youth to be going to Aboriginal Resource Center's once they decide to leave their remote northern communities and having a fear of being not Aboriginal enough or not being welcomed is something that a stereotype or a feeling that needs to be smashed and I think conversations like this and talking about it will reinforce the fact that maytee people are Aboriginal enough you do deserve a seat at the table you should be involved in the conversation and you shouldn't ever worry about that again since I'm gonna roll here with weird questions you you can convert to Judaism you can convert to Catholicism you can you know you can assume the citizenship if you move to another country and become a citizen of that country if you're not born matey can you become matey no that is the but but the communities themselves determine who their citizens are within international standards and the poly test from the Supreme Court of Canada sets out self identification community acceptance as well as ancestral connection not necessarily specific blood-quantum and I think that the maytee themselves have adopted that and they're flexible and how they apply that but I think that you know matey are not just any one who is mixed blood I think that that's a competent as you started with misconception that these communities themselves have the right to determine their own citizenship and they are and through the matey nation of Ontario's registry as well as work going on throughout the matey nation the matey do that they never want to be have someone have control over that like the Indian Act but they also do have their own objectively verifiable systems to identify their citizens okay I do remember in this very studio case I don't know how long ago it is now eight nine years ago or so John Ralston Saul came in here to talk about his book a fair country and here's one of the and of course you know the the premise of his book which I'm going to read right now he wrote we are a matey's civilization what we are today has been inspired as much by four centuries of life with the indigenous civilizations as by four centuries of immigration as have matey people Canadians in general have been heavily influenced and shaped by the First Nations a few things to unpack here Gary how'd you it first of all how did you feel about him describing all of Canada essentially as a matey nation well I'd like to take the good in what are you saying and good we have within the mighty nation and say well well that's quite the compliment to the mighty nation and maybe it draws on some stuff like within the mighty nation of Ontario I think you know people watched our government our governance and doctrine I think they'd be quite surprised and maybe it's a trait that Parliament can pick up on further but most of our resolutions when we go to our assembly and our provincial meetings or whatever are passed by consensus and so we'll discuss the issue this debate it and have good serious debate on it and then when ultimately comes to a vote you know more often than not even at our assemblies and our peace of no meetings it's by consensus the way we do business and so I you know if he's picking up on some of the better quality with have within the media nation and I applaud that comment what you think of that we're a matey nation I think I worry that generally people have such a baseline understanding of Aboriginal people in general and the distinctions between the three groups that's saying that can be very confusing well I think what he meant by was you know there's a kind of a sharing this community in Canada as evidenced by Medicare in a way yeah but I think one of the things that he's missing within that concept though is that there's a birth ethnogenesis means birth of a distinct culture and the concept that were just this mix of half of this half of that undermines the concept of that were something a new and completely distinct I think in his the the theory that he's espousing of what we have to recognize that this is a part of who we are underlying as a foundation of Canada I appreciate that I think using matey as the moniker to essentially do that conflates the concept between just simply something that's mixed in something that is completely distinct Gary you're stepping down I am I know those elections are happening right now in fact may 2nd so I hope everybody's getting out and voting for for the candidate of choice you've been present for eight years president for eight years what would you say you're most happy achievement is in that time well not I've been president for eight but I've been on there provincial council for more than two decades so I've seen and and I joined them another one who first created in 1993 so I've seen a tremendous evolution but in my tenure as president you know I think there's a number of things I'm most happy and proud of and you know you know just look at watching Kelly you know answer your questions and and you know a lawyer by profession and telling her story you know it's so much of what Emma knows about it's you know we put a lot of focus on supporting children and used to be the best they can be and your stats bore witness to the fact that maybe you the indigenous people are you know or some of them you know we still got a long way to go but our reaching what's the biggest challenge for your successor if you've got a long way to go well I think there's be challenges but I opportunities I really see opportunities with the Daniel decision coming down you know the courts are basically all but told government they need to develop a matey land things process to deal with our historic grievances getting tables for having proper programs and services that we talked about you know they're able to other indigenous peoples available to our people those are bread-and-butter issues that mean a lot to her to people on the ground so let me ask Jason about that you're gonna start or somebody's going to start from the main world negotiating with the government of Canada as a result of this Daniel's decision yeah how do you think that's gonna go I think that the past's already there they've done it for the Inuit up until the 1950s they had no relationship with the Inuit now we're witnessed to for modern day land claims agreement in the creation of Nineveh we know how this plays out there needs to be modern-day treaties or agreements with the maytee we've done the trifecta over the last decade Polly in 2003 the Manitoba matey Federation land claim case in 2013 and Daniel's is the final obstacle that's been but put before us the tables now set it's now for Trudeau to follow up on his commitment to say we're going to engage in nation-to-nation relationships well the courts have been there for a long time now it's ready time for the federal government to be there as well can you imagine in the province of Ontario in our lifetime a matey reserve I'm not necessarily sure it's going to be a reserve but I do see a land base from 80 whether it's for cultural whether it's for economic purposes there is no ifs ands or buts about that there is going to have to be reconciliation with the matey that's what justice Abela in the unanimous decision says get on with it we there is no more underbrush you can't you know close the wickets and pretend no one's at the door anymore you are responsible and believe me if they don't come and open the door the matey will kick it in I want to thank all of you for coming in and helping us out with this Kelly CAPA NOLA matey lawyer Gary Lipinski president matey nation of Ontario Jason Madden matey lawyer legal counsel matey nation of Ontario great to have you all on TV oh thank you you helped TVO create a better world through the power of learning visit support TV org and make a 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Channel: The Agenda with Steve Paikin

Views: 17,047

Rating: 4.7791409 out of 5

Keywords: TVO, TVOntario, The Agenda with Steve Paikin, current affairs, analysis, debate, politics, policy, Métis, indigenous, non-status Indian

Id: 4uk-gPzeXoE

Length: 30min 23sec (1823 seconds)

Published: Mon May 02 2016