BBC 1 Debate - Men-Hating, Apostasy & Muslims & Home-Mothers - The Big Questions

blokes apostates from Islam and stay-at-home mums good morning Annika Campbell welcome to big questions they were live from New College in Leicester welcome everybody to the big questions right so far so far nearly a million people have signed the petition to bring back Jeremy Clarkson freedom to fraca its declares he says carefully with a BBC investigation underway about the alleged handbags and pushing we can't comment but given the scale of the support for Jeremy Clarkson and the howls of protest at the apparent cancellation of the rest of the series of Top Gear we asked has britain become hostile to blokes Martin dogma former editor of loaded he's kind of he's emblematic I didn't see he stick you know he sticks his head above the parapet he says what he thinks he does what he likes and he just gets on with it and he's a heroic figure for a lot of not just men but women but he he kind of cuts that role doesn't he what is it feels I mean he's incredibly divisive character on the one hand he's greatly admired by his audience I think precisely because he has the balls frankly to say what people otherwise are afraid to say I'm about to faint that makes him incredibly unpopular with critics and his critics tend to be the opposite demographic so we hear a lot of angry sort of you know female voices and it was interesting this week I think how you know within two days the same number of people had signed a petition for him to stay then sign the campaign for page three to be dropped from the Sun in two years so this guy is incredibly popular but on the same hand he became an interesting thing he became a magnet not only for self anger about Clarke's and in general but there's so much criticism about the fact that he was white and that he was mailed it's like well what's going on here well let's take it away from Jeremy if I may and just talk about that broader issue I mean the underlying issue here is there a crisis in masculinity with a big M but we're often told that there is because that's another source stick that's used to beat men I hear it all the time what's actually happening is is that you know being a man has changed radically because how we define ourselves has changed and we no longer do traditional jobs the stay-at-home monthly I'll stay at home dad for six months and I believe it when I have two loaded how we be men has changed but where I'm really worried about all of this is particular on University campuses I used to be called the king of the lads role or embarrassingly you know my magazine was a standard-bearer for the lad lifestyle for which I became a great target of malice fair enough it goes with the turf but young British men I think are now being demonized on University campuses because the whole Lab culture the the dapper laughs thing you know he became this this cartoon caricature version of what a lad is and and he was used to contaminate the entire movement now every young man on universe campus who who likes to drink as a bit bit your Bush Fanta yeah band tip of where's banter end whereas it began who knows yeah we ought we ought to be are seeing an incredible suppression of free speech in our university in fact kate you yourself was all taken off university campus because you're the wrong sort of feminist now i think we shall likes got anything to do with deaf a lot i think this is not silly i think it runs to the heart of the same debate and that is about the fact that some people find it offensive millions don't but the minority people to find out offensive a controlling what the rest of us were allowed to say or do it's actually about freedom of speech about freedom of speech well in fact we're just you know bucks it's not about freedom of speech it's about what there's a fight it's not it doesn't matter whether it's a petitions move on to those who support them and those feel that they're failing to curtail let's talk let's let's talk about this crisis of masculinity or whatever first of all is there a war on men well no there simply isn't is the answer if you look at any of the corridors of power men massively outnumber women in this country and all around the world but is there these days that there's a difference between men isn't there and blokes or lads or this kind of culture which you're right is a relatively new thing you know 100 years ago there wasn't this culture of you know lad culture it's a very modern i disagree with that i think that probably lads in the cavemen time I mean they just immediately I don't think I don't think that it was the same situation that we've got now with sort of like widespread you know very violent online pornography this kind of stuff that is new and it's a new challenge people to deal with and is there you know a reaction to that and a backlash against that are people because I think that actually right young guys at university they are they're being sold this story of like yay Jack the ladder you know drink loads go out you know you're expected to have hundreds of girlfriends and all this kind of stuff and I think that they're being encouraged sometimes to behave in a way that isn't appropriate and I think if people are pushing back against that well yeah great there's a backup yeah but there's no a backlash as we can see yeah against against the backlash this is a right point and you know this is some men feel they cut they're not allowed to be men I just talked about the banter weight you know when Jeremy Clarkson says apologies anyone who's offended by this think when he said doesn't thing on German cars and he said the navigation systems only go to Poland there were there were complaints from similar like that will come tomorrow in a minute there were complaints from diplomats there was outrage in the press isn't it just the sort of thing that lads like to say in a bit of banter there's no different I don't think the issue is the issue is not that that bloke behavior equals the behavior of all men but that simply isn't true it's it's this bullying behavior that's unacceptable it's unacceptable in the workplace it's unacceptable in the media that is the issue freedom of speech absolutely I'm I support I'm men in Croydon I think the problem is that Jeremy can't Clarkson why are people bringing in his sex with gender in this an individual in a workplace had an altercation with his boss it happens all the time why are people focusing on his gender isn't that sexist well there's gonna be inquiry on that do you think that roles have become blurred do you think that some men feel that they are not allowed to be men anymore in our society in 2015 I thought that there's a greater stigma on on on males than they would be on females so certainly if you see that if a woman would did exactly the same thing to jimmy clogs and said no one would say that is there a problem with with with women today or so and so it's kind of tough to form a word view it's very sexist so the fact that we're okay to bring up Jeremy Clarkson's gender in this it shows the problem that there is a issue of stigma attached to men whenever we do something it will be reflected the media as part of our gender I'm sorry speaking as a woman who does stand-up comedy any time I do a show and everything isn't perfect about this show somebody starts talking about women in comedy the idea that women are not stigmatized by the actions of individuals within met within their numbers is a complete myth what a compiler what is your sense of various men what exactly what nice to say more than men we talk about women in politics in the way they dress we don't talk about men in politics in the way they dress the idea that men are specially stigmatized I'm sorry but that's that's that's a ridiculous it's not really it's not offensive to say it's ridiculous because once again it's just all dismissed now I'm a committee narrator being a man fest at the South Bank Center where we are trying to give men an opportunity to be able to talk about things that matter the biggest killer of men under 45 in UK is suicide now what's happening why is this going on right I'll tell you what listen Martin to tell all these ok let Martin look let Martin talk what's happening is that the campaign against living miserably the charity that represents this is desperate for more funds to look into wise is going on but they're not getting it and I'll tell you why because men don't qualify as a minority interest we don't get preferential funding right you can bet your life if women start killing themselves you know or Muslim Sid or black guys you know that there would be you know front-page news guaranteed Gamay inquiry millions of pounds of funds white men is it wait a minute wait a minute sorry Peck let's bring Sally Peck here I mean a lot of women are killed in domestic violence in elysium disproportionately no way many more let Sally's let Sally speak there's a huge problem in this country with gender equality and as you've seen recently in the global gender gap we've fallen to 26 place in the world which is really embarrassing we used to be 9th place 10 years ago but the real problem yes may have a much higher suicide rate and that's because we tell children when their one year old that boys and girls are different and this causes boys to grow up without any emotional intelligence people think oh yeah we need gender equality because this will get girls into STEM subjects which is true but even more important than that we need gender equality so that boys won't be violent there's a wonderful charity based in Edinburgh called zero tolerance which is teaching gender equality to child minders so that they can teach children that they're equal they have equal opportunities and do it specifically to reduce violence from men to women when they're adults we need to start much earlier than men okay my I want to commit unbelievable astonishing sexism we have to teach teach young boys not to be boys so they won't be violent why is being happy get out yeah I'm sorry like gender echo teach boys and girls that they're the same and that's a that's a problem they are different when we did when we do experiments on young babies and even on related animals we know that certain children go for certain toys boys and girls are do give you some context for all of this and you have to understand a little bit about history feminism there have been two main strand here is I like heads well yes of course I because of course men aren't allowed to speak about anything that isn't to do with men except no one's really I'm guess your little cage talk to you a little bit about the problems that men are experienced in society and since you're not a man perhaps you'd like to give it a rest for a second and so there is a wider context in which men are suffering slightly even ten years ago would have been ridiculous to say it but very recently we've seen a lot of structural advantages to being a woman crop up in education in the workplace under 30 women earn more than men for the same work in the UK and the u.s. now which is an extraordinary statistic and something that your people have to be very very carefully convinced of because it sounds sounds absurd but there is a sense in which um men a particularly young men probably men our age haven't necessarily experienced it but younger men 20 year olds there's an enormous problem I read about this last year accorded the sexiness of men checking out society checking out of relationships giving up on women giving up on careers they don't bother go universe anymore now more women go to university women get higher grades University more women graduate from university all of the traditional imbalances between men and women have flipped and very recently now that when young may be allowed to finish so I'm so I'm talking about men doing um when darling darling now you think it's funny exactly problem we hope we heard you two showing sexism and you're just sitting here doing it flagrantly and without even apologize we just we just heard that it we just heard that it was an essential characteristic of men that they were violent a minute it goes I guess yeah nobody said my points it my points it anyway I'm getting out of here know if anyone in the audience wants to say something please feel free to put up your hand and all I'll bring you in at this stage and just just just for the sake of diplomacy let me take it to you Christine Eugene Christine men still boss the world in that in terms of well I agree with the gentleman that there are huge demographic changes taking place 60 percent of graduates in the UK are female 25 percent of main breadwinners working working moms or breadwinners a further 16% have the same earning capacity as their earnings as their partner that is true ten percent of working dads now stay at home they've left the workforce we also have Millennials and Gen Y who want more personal time I I really do empathize with the changes that are happening and how that must feel but it's happening across the fight let me ask you as well what about the boardrooms which you know very well are they still you know what was that program Mad Men you know that kind of testosterone fueled environment the the figuratively smoke-filled rooms it was swaggering about and the banging of machismo on the table is it still like that was it changing it's it's changing but it's at the beginning in the UK we're aiming for 25 percent for the for the top 250 companies to have 25 percent of the board members be female but we are the beginning of that journey and when I say at the beginning when you look at the next level under that the non the the executive committee it's still less than 20 percent are female so we have a long way to go in terms of gender equality in business Jay as somebody who lived in the wrong body for a lot of years and lived as a man you were kind of undercover in the other world weren't you I was going to say maybe I can come in as a fifth column on fascinates listening to Martin and mind oh go on about this I without getting into the existential what does one count as what I know is but I counted as far as the public was concerned as male and then later I didn't count as male and what I've experienced is the fear of going out and about on the streets and men don't know they're born they don't understand that fear they don't understand the parking close to a station carrying your keys in case somebody might come up to you they don't understand a friend of mine 20 years in IT a trans woman and she is now asked to make the tea although she's a senior consultant in the room so we see this all the time what is going on here is men don't know how privileged they are and it's a little bit sadly like my sister who grew up in world without word-processing and now she has to do it he really doesn't like it and that's sad and I'm sorry but you have to move on but men have had privileges I know it's had privilege er guided and have had privilege and now they don't have so much I'm sorry may I just don't feel this question and do you think that perhaps your experience to somebody who's transitioned from male to female might be part of your experiences - I mean you you're sort of claiming experiences now as a woman no no I'm not doing that well that's what you said you said you it's no I changed as oh no I very carefully said because then you get very existential about what do I count as I said I've experienced life wearing the male garb and not wearing the male garb and the point is that wearing the male garb you get away with no good Martin I think you know you know your situation you know hot fell you know this is the new thing you know the transgender thing a lot of men are confused about what that means what I mean by that is you know there's a lot of change we need to get used to that dead right absolutely but we must never forget that the vast majority of people who are attacked or murdered in the UK or around the world are actually men you know okay other men are doing that you know it's a male-on-male thing and that's another sort of reason to prove that men are toxic because we're killers and and that's what the message we hear all the time is about the terrible things men do but why things men can do when do we ever hear about that where the surveys have proved many good as a sir this week's and if you smile at a woman you're sexist this got global media pickup it's ridiculous is that everything we do is sexist conniving and part of the minor successes I mean of course the great feminist academic Camille paleo said if women round the world we'd all be still still living in grass huts um you know we know what men have done men have got to the moon men built built the pyramids men built the internet milk men did what lots of wonderful things and but you're right that you know what we tent what we tend to hear a lot is that the membrane societies is sort of toxic masculinity which was alluded to earlier and all these other sort of ridiculous offensive it's now open season particularly if you're white and you're a man and what feminists don't seem to appreciate the irony of is that they are relentlessly ridiculing people on the basis of skin color and sex they don't seem to get over there somebody in a motorcycle is Sally first well I just think that you're completely misinterpreting the situation here and with the issue of violence which I'm not male and male violence when I'm talking about with early childhood education is giving all of the possibilities to all well not not saying you're here the pink toys for you here that the soldier yeah so I was like let toys we choice well I mean one many studies have shown that when when they're babies if a baby cries a girl child will be picked up much more quickly and held and comforted for much longer she's taught by her closeness to her carer that her feelings count they matter and she gets a reaction whereas boys in every study it shows they're encouraged to play further away they're not picked up as quickly they're not comforted so there's not you're gonna be a princess and you're gonna be yes you're a tradition but even earlier than that that's my point yeah boys emotions are not less than two and this is what causes the problems boys there's not a toxic natural masculinity it's not the nature we are teaching them to do that teaching boys to be tortured to care you see the problem is that this sort of view leads to problems the two absurdities we now have the education system the u.s. for example where boys are judged to this sort of emotional a sort of feminine standard we're sort of in moves they talk about feeling the consequences of that is one in five American boys put on ritalin because they're boisterous in class because they hold up to this sort of touchy-feely feminine standard that isn't how boys behave and and what happens is we end up with a generation of drugged up young boys and if you look at statistics the number of kids that are on a drawl and Ritalin whatever in the United States and it's beginning to happen here it's monstrous and it comes from this sort of philosophy of all feminists did not invoke and invent the global big pharma industry you just you know I mean that's just that's just ridiculous but secondly I think you're really really confusing what feminists are saying I think you're really failing to listen when feminists are talking about masculinity in the way that what I'm not saying is men are innately evil and all for what I'm saying is that we live in a rather toxic culture where men are raised and told that they should be competitive and aggressive and and detached in their emotions and actually this is wrong and this is not doing men any favors or women any favors and it ties in directly to the mental health issues that Martin is talking about with young men and it ties in directly to the women being brutally murdered by their partners every week in Britain and that's what we're challenging it's not about attacking men it's about challenging the culture that men are being dragged into and saying you don't have to be a part of that there are much better options for me lynnie I thought you want to come in as you come across the what we've gotta remember it's not just it's not just some women here attacking sort of bloke ish blokes or some bloke ish blokes feel some men are attacking them as well and so on and so forth make your quick point yes no um it's interesting isn't it you said you were stay-at-home dad for him for a while I suppose is the last point yes indeed and while stay-at-home fathers are actually seen as progressive in this society hey you Stalin stay-at-home dad aren't you brilliant aren't you amazing aren't you doing a wonderful job yet if you're a stay-at-home mother you're retrograde according to Nick Clegg we're in a Wardian society we live with the harping back to the award Ian days were in rose sepia tinted glasses just because your mother so where's that that's sexist that's all we have time for now and I think you brilliantly previewed our final debate which is about a stay-at-home mothers so for that I make a huge run great great synergy so you may have something to say about that debate I would imagine you would log on to BBC co uk TV q we're live in Leicester this morning also debating the following do British Muslims have a problem with apostates and do we discriminate against stay-at-home mums so tell us what you think about those topics send us any other ideas or thoughts you may have about the show well apostasy posh word for giving up religion or faith abandoning your faith mainly used by believers to describe those who have renounced their beliefs for atheism or to convert to another faith well in Islam they'd also covered anyone who denies a fundamental tenet or creed even agreeing that man evolved from animals a human evolution on so forth and it it also covers anyone who's a mocked Allah or questioned Sharia law now one extreme punishable by death in some countries and imprisonment in others now in Sharia civil law apostates may have their marriages and all lose the rights to their children lose their property and be shunned by their families even the UK where everyone has the right to freedom of religion X Muslims say that they've been made to suffer for announcing their beliefs subdue British Muslims have a problem with apostates well Amal why did you leave they were why did you leave Islam I got educated and I didn't agree with the Quran being the revelation of God and Mohammed a perfect embodiment in fact I felt it was a questionable moral guidance and that couldn't be applied to the 21st century those ideas mark you out as an apostate and because of that you face being rejected by your family the community and you face being called names like apostate and tech names like kaffir Martin so what has that been like for you it has been it has been difficult because you are you know you grow up with a family and just because you have ideological divide you know you decide that you don't believe in the Quran and does does that mean that you don't want to be with your family that's what that's particular farmers all families different development this I'm talking about the context of a devout Muslim family and a devout Muslim community there's a common experience do you think I think it is a common experience for individuals that come from that come from devout families and live in devout communities if Islam to have a community of believers that strongly believe oh yeah the Ummah that believe that the Quran is the literal word of God and Muhammad supposed perfect embodiment it cannot tolerate any form of dissent so you are rejected you are threatened with potential violence for breaking with this no have you be I have been yes and I have been I'm estranged from my family because it has there was no no way my family was going to accept that there are hotheads and idiots in every well this this is the thing we the headlines are grabbed by the you know the so called jihadist the people who carry out vigilante violence but what is and what we're missing is the conservatives who sit behind that the many Muslims who believe in that backward ideology and every and believe in that backward ideology and even though they might not carry out violence they will approve of it and they do call your names like I said like Myrtle okay and that they are Shariah terminologies well let's listen carry that capital punishment that's about in 23 countries across the world as part of the Penal Code let's get up Diller let's get this sorted out let's let's sort it out once and for all you know when all Sharia conditions apply in a perfect Sharia state should apostasy be a criminal offense yes or no well here we are again another groundbreaking Islam is evil bad discussion and so on and I think it's been done it's been done to death unfortunately and before we go any further could you just clarify but I could say that might be never done it has to super-short yeah well I could say I've done I became Muslim because I was educated right just because I don't think it's wrong to say just I became educators why I left this fine just please please please can we just establish the ground rules on this it's a straight question then we'll move on to the other issues because it's fascinating because 23 countries across the world send the Penal Code when all Sharia conditions apply in a perfect Sharia state should apostasy be a criminal offense I don't accept the Victorian translation between ero translation or if the dogs here I got nothing no no no I don't think that I don't know I don't accept that but there is no apostasy Lauren in Islam I'm fine classical cats well something has killed these are apostasy laws around the world so that there is something going on in post-colonial secular secular States post-colonial state lying you would discover yet and I say that I reject the the even idea of there being apostasy law in Islam in the first place let me ask you one more time what is it let's clarify first of all wrong track what is apostasy mean to you then what a positive a positive the book think by English it pasta just means changing your mind whereas in Islam if the dial be best translate as sedition or treason all right which I saw some states have seen his treasonous addition to actually leave the religion let me ask you one more thing then we'll both will throw it into the mix with everyone else I mean you you shared platforms with this London Imam I hate them all Haddad who says that female genital mutilation is obligatory he supports wife-beating sports gays being killed and he has said that apostates should be killed and that their blood is halal do you disown this disgusting bigot well first and foremost I share I share platforms of atheists Christians Jews even Costanza I saw one tell anyway somewhere isn't just say I think what is ah I think what is unfair is I could have bruh I could be debtless entire audience out with Muslim people become Muslim who have been ostracized by their family disowned this discussed a bigger threatened abused by their parents for becoming Muslim they've had to spend the night in mosques because they their parents have had to discern this disgusting bigot Nicki will never answer the question because look he believes looking a concept of treatment no no I believe in the concept of I feel if you're gonna talk about someone invite them and let them speak for themselves my money hits look about IDs what he said I've only he'll talk about I swear sir I'm in position cause I'm not your own position for bad - well well well firstly bring him the sharing ring bring hate on her dad and let him defend himself is on the record but is what you say I won't I don't like CDs and see this Inquisition Court you're gonna set up to say do you condemn this or to the Deacon then I might say you're on here but you're not going to express any opinion seems like a waste of time know about ideas not about people do about me but I'm not I'm not anyone's lawyer it's the idea of female genital mutilation or good or a bad idea or female genital mutilation I disagree very strongly here okay so you can say that you disagree I thought you think it's disgusting bigot is that issue you asked me about hey Tom had that not FGM but he said he said it's the legacy I can give you my aunt about FGM summer son what's my dad when I won't invite him all I asked he does agree whether he supports wife beat his boss wife beating killing gays you say he said no yes he does if you've seen it here it's no no okay you don't you don't you don't decide misawa Hasan it's like turning your back on your family though isn't it some people see it as the ultimate treachery yeah unfortunately I've heard many stories like emelles although attitudes are changing in young Emerson generation some of them but we have to be honest about the history with some people leaving Islam and earlier something that there was a vibrant debate about it where some believed in freedom of religion other saw it as treason and that's when this capsule Punisher will introduce in ancient and medieval Islamic law unfortunately became the norm in the books the idea that you would be killed because it was seen as treason and that carried on into this age where you have the laws that you talked about so in Saudi Arabia recently for example you know there's a young man being sentenced to death because he dishonored the the current in public al Qaeda and is in Syria in Iraq have executed 13 year olds accusing them of apostasy and blasphemy this is a serious problem in the observations of the question you know simply what about my dad about this to that you regard it as treason do you believe in freedom of religion should should Muslims have the freedom to convert to other religions or leave their faith just as others have the freedom to convert to Islam or should they be killed if they do that it's a serious question for the modern age well well I was asked a question I said it to dodge a skier that's additional treason but people with in Islamic theology ultimately choose which belief they they take in this world whether they want to accept Islam or reject Islam yeah but but like the title of this discussion is do Christians ok now I'll come in in a minute I've always it was it's ridiculous it was made clear to me growing up as a Muslim as being somebody who is born to a Muslim family you have no choice other than to remain as a Muslim that is that was amazingly activity are alined don't blame Islam no hate it for your entry no way then I blame Mohammed okay I believe Mohammed I do because the ridiculous argument that we're having about this is just ridiculous nice love meeting anybody last ten minute note Nick let me speak I'll come to you in a second go on leaving smoke up traveling nation the reason why there is a division in in the Muslim community is because it goes down it goes back to the founding person of Islam Mohammed now it's true no it's true it doesn't say specifically in the Koran to kill people who leave Islam however wait wait it's sort of tiny exactly right every one to two to five six there should be no compulsion against but religious yes but let's it shows them but Nick let's put it in context let's put in context they're in Islam religion esprit de corps the revelation of the Quran there is something called a mekin period when Mohammed was a minority and he was all peaceful and turned the other cheek and then there was when he went to Medina and he formed an Islamic state and he is quoted in the hadith books where he says whoever changes his religion kill him and this is where Isis Rabia Wow must be Islamic what refer to that is your question sorry Muslims don't worry the plane your let me just let me just come back in that I think the important thing is that we believe in religious freedom people are free to leave Islam actually the the evidence is that the the traffic is the other way around more more people are coming into Islam on an affinity page selected your right to have your sand I hope you should show some respect to me as well the problem with people like a mall and other ex-muslims is they spend their time after leaving Islam demonizing and attacking ok listen wait wait wait wait ok I'm back to let me ask you a question I made you said that I said a very gladly I'll say question when you talk about demonizing of course you were involved recently at the center of this campaign against margin there was when he tweeted the Jesus and Mo cartoon you tweeted goo Stuckey Rasool it went all over the world that means the Famer of the Prophet that that's a clear most in the classical motion wait wait let me ask that was a clear message you knew what you were doing here that's it killed and I'm sorry that's I'm sorry maybe his native POC essentially travels for possessing work the punishment which is death and you've tweeted that sorry I feel let me let me answer I let me say that at that time there was some very strong held views by me as I let me just make the point before you interrupt me but I held views I said things and did things which I regret in the heat of the moment but what I don't regret is standing up for the honor of our prophet and as Muslims we honor our prophet there's a death penalty of Pakistan I'm sorry Stan Kira's all Nicky did the suggestion which has been put out by atheists and humanists and supporters imagina was the right somehow endorse the violence I tomorrow endorsed his death ray you tried it like I did no in fact one of the time whatever that way everybody Osweiler show me what would you what do you with the city shows mother's partner yo your partner's Muslim isn't it man current from you yes years and he would be horrified by your slipperiness and he would be horrified by your hypocrisy wait you haven't answered up you tweeted that you were going to inform Islamic countries that Maajid Nawaz had committed the crime for which you use the auto which is a crime punishable by death in Pakistan what treated and that you would inform Islamic countries of what you know as it is that yeah not an insight resort to violence to this person before I'm sorry I requested a half penalty but suddenly this seems to be a witch and against certain individuals who come onto the program it is that this is how this is I would take any wishes when it comes to County Council ex-muslims this look I'm really honored and thank John cool Muhammad let mama Danson listen and that's up wait I'll tell everyone okay let's have silence let's Muhammad Ansan okay what's going on I've done I'm going to confess already upset him record and I say it again the heat of the moment things were said which I regret I if I had a chance again and I said you would have not done that but I meant hide away from the fact that I want to defend my my faith I want to defend the honor of the Prophet and things were done in the heat of the moment but you know this is part of the problem if you want to have a rational debate about Islam and Muslims we have experts like the Council of X Muslims and if they spent less time demonizing Islam and Muslims people might be prepared to have a more honest honest I wait I somehow Sun sorry to be I just want to try and get everyone to get effect like I'm coming back to you like I said I spoken to a lot of X Muslims and those have gone and come back a bit become agnostics and one of the biggest reasons why people become apostates in the first place is because they see a harsh and intolerant and mindless brainless version of Islam promoted all of the running to be listened and the best way to honor the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him the best way to honor the Prophet Muhammad upon him who is described as a mercy to the world is to embody mercy and compassion which is the fundamental message of the Quran and many of our coalition religionists have to understand that they don't defend the honor of the Prophet by becoming angry and Khan for the death of blasphemers or infidels or apostates but it is actually by a viper showing mercy and compassion in fact they would often defame and dishonor the Prophet more Isis and al-qaeda in the hideout this matter dad when people present a harsh intolerant version of Islam they are defaming the Prophet and they are defaming Islam this is a you know other is most beneficent and most most merciful so even if somebody in a Sharia state leaves the religion they should be embraced as a fellow human being that's just humanity apart from being human rights that does happen doesn't it I'm saying yet ignorance ignorance defames that the flames of religion but the point to make is that people who asked are from non Muslim families English families they become Muslim they're called race traitor they are called terrorists they are abused so we see this actually happening across the board not just with Muslims so the fact that all religions are many you're picking on Muslims here is disingenuous and a collective of some law that has stood an Islamic state which we are not in an Islamic state is evidenced very absurd in the fact that not a single apostate in England has been killed that's good so also why do we why do we keep bringing in this Sharia law matter but you are not single posit anything everybody understand why some people are don't know what to think about Islam or might be confused or or suspicious or worried about it do you understand those concerns when people say one thing very reasonably on TV on TV shows but quite a different thing on Twitter when people don't give straight answers to questions do you understand why somebody who perhaps doesn't very many buddies I'm picking up from this point that that is absolutely true because the Islamists will never and in a platform like this will not come out and say be straight there is a concept I the question FGM yeah I've answered the question we're not talking about how UTM you want to meet him here's the car she didn't answer when I say I don't work condemned when I'll shake they're not Shariah conditions applying a purpose real estate sugar apostasy be a criminal offense and I said that I reject the the translation apostasy it's inaccurate if the dog is translated as sedition and treason I'm going to repeat it again a third time and a fourth time you see I'm not fit there's a good stereotype of the ranting mr. face here's the thing of course you know first of all yes of course lots of religions do things that aren't very nice and and so and so does some people who aren't religious that's not the issue the issue is is there a particular you know is there a particular increased likelihood in Muslim communities that people who leave feel threatened feel afraid and also feel that they end up being ostracized from their family and their community and the answer overwhelmingly does seem to be yes it's a story that we hear a lot and it's an it's you have no evidence for that at all whatsoever is because she's xx non-muslims who become Muslim and go let them say their stories okay then stay this sounds like good idea let's get some audience oh I'll go across to universal good morning yeah um I'm a Muslim I'm a practicing Muslim and the lady the reasons that she gave for leaving Islam people also give the same reasons for coming into India need to understand yeah okay and also when it comes to apostasy I'm not educated as this these two guys well I'm a Muslim and I follow my lead them to the best I can and I live in the West born and raised in Africa live in the West I don't see that I'm on a collision course with with these people so I I can I practice my faith and I follow her on your religion on to you and marriage on to me that's how I have friends who are Muslims and they're gay I don't join demand you more responsible for who I sleep with and I'm wrestling for my sins so when it comes to apostate when it comes apostasy I understand a process is not mentioned in the Quran however the Prophet I've mentioned has mentioned in a hadith say those who live there even killed it I read such entities and my understanding is that this was said at the time when Islam was weak coming up yeah when people when the Jews and Christians and pagans we are coming into Islam just to live just to give the impression that Islam was not original worth following so therefore this was said also fast forward into modern time I don't think any Muslim would sit today and say oh we need to kill this guy because he's saying well you know these days we wouldn't kill apostates but you know when when when Islam wasn't so strong or to say that there was ever and is a condition tomorrow it would be okay that is horrific I think this is when Muslims who are in denial you should be very sore and the Muslims will be select Philon their recipe understanding of Islamic history there is after the Prophet Muhammad died or Muhammad died he's no profit to me but once he when he died there is a whole Wars that al-bakr it's the Honorable punch Ali really raised this is called immersion the wars of them the Murtagh Wars or the apostate Wars where Muhammad sorry Abu Bakr and Ali actually burned alive people that were accused of apostasy so Isis didn't you know offensives okay okay look Islamic tradition some Haditha accepted some aren't some are seen as dubious summer seen as genuine just on that theological point you're a theologian very quickly on that theological point as sama burning along vanilla very quick we've got to move on what we have these difficult traditions actually talking about killing apostates others saying no to find people who became Christians from from Islam became Jews etc and and who are left alone the apostate wars were also political world because it was rebellion as well said there's a there's an early discussion as to whether was about apostasy or whether was about political rebellion against United Arabia Muslims have to grapple with these difficult issues these are different issues in our tradition the Ottomans repealed the apostasy laws in mid 19th century hundred fifty years ago al-azhar in Egypt repealed you know killing apostate 5060 years ago and many Muslims don't know that many fundamentalist Muslims literalists want to bring that back and they're doing it right now in Syria and Iraq and Saudi Arabia and other places but Muslims have to have an honest discussion with the tradition and of course you can be educated and still be Muslim on the developments Lee thank you very much sir we join all of the breaks by logging on to BBC doc code at UK / the big questions follow the link to the online discussion and tweet using the hashtag BBC tbq so tell us what you think about our last big question do we discriminate against stay-at-home mum as follows on from our first tube well it's Mothering Sunday so hope all the moms watching or eating chocolate surrounded by flowers generally being waited on hand and foot and enjoying the warm ambience of this morning's program what about the rest of the year once upon a time women who devoted their lives to looking after their families were widely admired now they're all too often disparaged as you know yummy mummies ladies who lunch are just too lazy to get a job and the benefits intact system does little to encourage women who just want to look after their kids do we discriminate against stay-at-home mums Rachel Royce broadcaster mother and - here's a question for you do we discriminate against it's their home mums and I think we do discriminate in the tax system don't we because we will and the government gives money to nurseries it will give school vouchers to parents who want to both go out to work but gives nothing for the stay-at-home mother so obviously in the tax system its discriminated against um does society discriminate I think it's become kind of frowned upon to be a stay-at-home mother I mean I never was I was brought up I went to school in the 70s and I went to a girls grammar school and then we were shown lots of films about contraception horrible films about giving birth and put off having babies it wasn't the dumping so when I said if I had a baby I thought well few months at home get the breastfeeding done then back to work that's what I did but as time went on and because of the industry that I work in in broadcasting very long hours very very long days I began to question whether I was actually doing the right how did your children a home respond to you being away bingo well that's just it I mean I I never went for the nursery thing I went and looked at a nursery and to me it looked like a Romanian orphanage rose rows of babies this is the 6 months old this is a 12 month old I thought oh that's too heartless and initially I was quite lucky because I had my mother to help and and my then-husband and then that was all right if I left left the children with somebody who loved them it was fine but eventually I was in a situation in various situations where I left the children with somebody I paid and I kind of struggled with myself a bit but I thought it is the right thing to go to work that was the way I'd been brought up but now I talk to my children now about the experiences they had and it wasn't really very nice be brought up by somebody who didn't love them and she was efficient but the love wasn't there and at one time my little boy used to go around the house picking up coins as a now can you stay at home look after me mummy no oh yeah you know I think I think Vince Linda's is coming yeah yeah what stay what's the evidence what does the scientific evidence show this other thing that's a huge catchment theory that's huge amounts of evidence detachment theories is very well-known John Bowlby did a lot of research back in the 1950s but it's what it's what we got to talk about what's what makes us human and putting our babies first is surely what makes us human makes us a society babies will grow into responsible adults if they've had that loving nurturing care when they're very young babies you talk about babies yeah girl babies being picked up before boy babies well I don't know any evidence about that I mean there's a lot of evidence done about a lot of different things but it's really important to think about the lifecycle when you're at home you're going to be at home for a short period of time we're all living longer we're all working longer the government will get mothers at home who will go back to work they will pay tax a lot of them like me we had repaid a lotta tax we went out to work before we had a family you know it's all about the life cycle being there when it matters and when babies are really small the person at home bit mum or dad and it can be dad I have said before that being a dad at home seems progressive mother at home is a bit retrograde but it's actually about having that person as Rachael's just said who loves that child more than anything else Oh who's oh okay I had a voice from I agree with you that the childcare particularly as babies is incredibly important but I think the issue is good childcare and not necessarily thoroughly mother father grandparent or or somebody that's not part of the family the love piece can come from the family without with having a child care that's provided by non family members the issue here and this goes back to the first to be is that it's about good parenting parenting comes from nurturing loving your child from instilling discipline from instilling up and motivating your child so so I think that in terms of the arrangements for how a child grows up there are different arrangements depending on what suits that family unit is your situation they're holding adversity in order to bake there has to be diversity to allow that final unit to be to be the best that it can be there can't be one method that says this is the way now absolutely not it's all about choice and mother's at home matter the organization that I work for as a volunteer and have done for eight years it's all about choice but there is no choice for the a lot of families today families are obliged the government speakers get back to work your hard-working mr. cammeron every phrase he comes out with he'll talk about the hard-working family and to him and to mr. Cleg the hard-working family are the families where two people go out to work it's not about Sully I bring the son and I saw you nodding along there Mohammed I'll bring you in in a second as well you were varying there with what we heard from Lynn that is this point that the state does fund a certain amount of childcare in this country we're not talking Scandinavian levels obviously but should the state fund a mother who wants to be her own well actually I would say we're not funding Scandinavian quality which is the real problem the the problem with child care in this country is the House of Lords report found two weeks ago is that the government is funding child care that is unacceptable unacceptable by Ofsted standards a third of vulnerable two year olds who we are all as taxpayers pay to be in childcare are going to nurseries that are not good enough that they're a poor or failing so that's actually where the government should be investing money not in having middle-class women stay at home really like this no allergy middle-class I'm sorry sorry it should not ever be about middle-class no actually no it's you're about the economics your children should be able to have a stay-at-home parent port why should a poorer families suffer and not have how about the child says mom why can't I go to nursery today I love your boat they will say that when they're three and four how can a six-month-old baby shout out mum I want you I don't want anything error sorry the baby can't say well I think that you are actually privileged in mother's at home of her father's at home and there's a lot of evidence that proves that how much a father is involved in his child's life is very important also what about gay families you know how she thought about is one parent being around okay but whatever value in that sorry speaking I'll come to register value families are you're less flexible working incentivized by the government we need to have men and women working part time so they can be there for their kids but that's actually it could be pretty like work or because my husband works part-time or full-time that we are not loving our children we're not suggesting to them how important they are is ridiculous read the mother's at home matter literature and it doesn't say anything about it has to be the mother I mean it can be the father as well all right all I'm saying really is that sure if you were to ask the child the child would rather be looked after by somebody who loves and then than somebody who doesn't I'm not saying don't engage reverse we sitting about talking about Pam's bio chocolate I did my own situation either I've been a single parent for a long time and I got you hat to work I'm having to work and be the breadwinner and go you know I've been doing 12-hour days by the time I've left him the children haven't even brought up by me they've been as children looked after by somebody who didn't love them very much and when they were teenagers they've been latchkey kids they've been locked out because I've forgotten to leave McKee my child broke his arm once and as a hand of miles away you know that's that's a culture that mothers have to go to any ordinance comments please in Sally and then I'll come to you Kate and I know Jane you're on the list as I tell you what I'm going to do in an erotical we're going to go to the audience first and then you can regroup and gather your thoughts let me see now lady there first of all good morning to you um I've got a twins and I am very lucky I got maternity pay and I got to stay home for a year and look after my twins however maternity pay stays exactly the same whether you have one baby or twins or four babies so you know that the government need to really look at that when people do have twins or multiple bears and you know I didn't have to give up my job because me and my husband we both work part time and when I work he looks after the children when you actually I look after the children not everybody can do that but it was essential for that first year for my twins that I was at home and I looked after good for you hi hi there and yeah I have a nine month old son I'd just like to say that when I'm off with him the whole day it is definitely not a day off it is incredibly difficult looking after my son for the whole day on my own so so hats off to my wife is on maternity at the moment I think it's not just the government it's the whole society how difficult is it nowadays to be able to live on one salary gave you ever tried buying a house around here it's impossible and and now students are paying nine thousand and the Year fees I can be out with lots of debt and we are telling them you must go out work or you're gonna have to wait until you're 40 45 to go to poor to have children delay about their yeah alright I'm one of the problems for me and I don't have kids but thinking about situation you know we do brand stay-at-home mothers as lazy as you mentioned in the introduction but a recent YouGov poll has shown that when both parents work the same number of hours the women are still doing the lion's share of their child-rearing and she still King at the housework and how can women be expected to UM to do both roles and balance that and fairly to their back and children yeah Mohammed you were agree that when Lynn was talking earlier on you were sort of nodding sagely it says something yeah those early years being so important it's so so important I mean it might find me I've got three daughters my wife chose to stay at home because we thought it was important to have one parent you know at home bringing up the children I'm surrounded by pretty strong women so I like your household I'm a minority when it comes to deals everywhere goods everywhere yeah but I think it's so so important that we stigmatize stay home where were mothers and we also stigmatize women who choose to go to work and I think each parent each household will have to make a decision the government has to provide more affordable childcare and it's going to be a higher quality and I think that's so important what are you spotting a lot more to do is the money should follow the child if the government gave families the money to decide what they would rather do whether they'd rather go out to work or whether or not they'd like to spend some of your time choice is all about choice and unless the money follows the child it won't Mumsnet serve a paper today I think with 88 percent of mothers said they would like to spend more time at home or all the time at home if they could possibly do that of course economically it's really really tough as we heard so mama do the sit where dads want to do the same thing yeah well that was a mom service for evident I'm all I think what would help more with and help parents and is those who decide to and say do part-time work and and take their children to nursery nurseries are unaffordable for many families it's very expensive so maybe we could the government could help with reducing the costs so that but Charlie can come through and child care does cost it costs a lot of money if he unaffordable it is unaffordable but then surely what you don't a lot of people paying more per hour to pay their cleaners to come and look at their hair after their houses than they pay to have their children decent childminders a childcare is deserved be paid property that's all solo Martin there are lots of women like my wife it took two years off maternity going back to work who are basically I'm paying for child care that bake the basically all the salary does even really cover it they're basically working for free Kate because so expensive taco clashes night let's see on her so it should also be on your self around his called Kate and so I might ask for that I don't answer that that we also know that they're very high levels of discrimination against him in the workplace when they go away on maternity leave and a majority feel they come back to a job that isn't as good at fective Lee as the one that they left they lose clients or they lose aspects of responsibilities so it's very difficult women to come back and then be told that their job isn't quite as good as it used to be you can understand why they end up staying home and the solution there's no marginal flexible working opportunities for everybody for men and for women the solution is to have a you know maternity leave and paternity leave be equally long so that both parents get a chance to do that and and the other solution is that we talked a lot now about people how you need to live on two incomes how hard it is to live on one income and of course there are people who are who are not only living on one income but raising children at the same time in that single parents and we need to do a lot more for them I do it you were thoughtfulness well I mean early years totally important obviously I mean it's both there's research on both sides there's research that talks about attachment theory there are a lot of contradict contradictory results which say that it's really important for children to get out about socializing and so for three when that's real not one thing Rishi says okay I think I think for all of human history children have been raised by their parents it's something that works it's something that's that's part of our humanity and if we live in such a I suppose a very captive society such that everyone has to to work full-time and can't have that human attachment then I think it's a very inhumane to saya tea and I think that's great we're all agree with each other yeah that means the question whether we're just going to work for economic benefit obviously that that is key but there are also we talked about the demographic changes in the beginning there are many women that go to work because they want to go to work they find a fulfilling and they find that they're better parents because they work since we brought in personal examples I'd like to share mine I've been working for over 30 years I have a 28 year old a 25 year old and a 14 year old I can't think of more balanced children why because my husband and I work together we provided that love do we have external help yes but we made sure that that help was good but I think that's one method I wouldn't possibly prescribing that to everyone the point here is choice and respecting each choice I think they should be added Jane you're a parent oh gosh well I'm a parent and I have single parented I'm hearing a lot of people sort of the green but disagreeing but basic problem is we all want choice and if you step back and look at society society is not set up to allow that choice Society allows that choice for people with privilege and it's set up in the way the state moves the kasharev and my experience so if swapping our experience I single parenthood for five years or so and I was part of a consultancy where there are other women single parenting and oh look you can do part-time isn't that wonderful so we're organized so that you can do seemed know what it meant was we ended up doing the same amount of work get paid about 60% of what the men doing full-time were and did the children on top of that society is not geared to give people choices charlie I agree and one thing I would just add also is that we're talking about the choices that we're able to make and about paying cleaners and stuff but actually what the government needs to because if we're talking about do discriminating against stay at her mother's we need to think about the most vulnerable children this is rich they've got the choices isn't it yes and and we need to think about people who you know need help with parenting skills we were making an assumption everyone's making an assumption here that you kind of popped out of the womb knowing how to be a parent and you really don't I mean I don't they don't teach you in schools you're saying the 70s your kind of cure to go into the workplace and we need more support and that's the other thing this House of Lords report found was that either through hope you know the NHS you can have support for parenting for mothers and for fathers to teach children how for language is you know so if you're not at home I'm sorry 10 seconds 10 seconds you're not at home if you're not at home you don't learn how to become a parent and it's all about learning you learn through the process of parenting well listen thank you all very much indeed thank you you

Channel: Muslim Debate Initiative Archive

Views: 419,357

Rating: 4.6933923 out of 5

Keywords: The Big Questions (TV Program), abdullah all andalusi, apostasy, apostates, islam, sharia, haitham al haddad, Muslim (Literature Subject), Apostasy In Islam

Id: Ncx8NiTbiuw

Length: 59min 17sec (3557 seconds)

Published: Mon Mar 16 2015

Reddit Comments

[u/duggtodeath]

"Of course I do, but I don't want you to know that!"

[u/Noahboah234]

Theres a similar one of this with Richard Dawkins isnt there?

[u/mike112769]

Sharia law is awesome, if you're an ignorant savage living in the Bronze Age.