(gentle music) It was kinda crazy because going into 300, it just felt like we were invincible. It was wild to hit that mark and then feel all kinds of new energy. You go through these lows and highs, but you get beyond 300 miles and then you realize you have more force than you ever had even in the first day. It's incredible how just changing your mindset can make such an impact. (air whooshing) Hey, everybody, welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Ultra running phenomenon, Harvey Lewis. This guy got a load of this. He's been running ultras for about 25 years at this point. And along the way he's of course won a slew of them. But this past year at the ripe age of 45, Harvey finds this entirely new gear, not only winning his second Badwater, but following it up this past October with just a stunning win at the Big Dog's Backyard Ultra, where he clocked an astounding and world record setting, 354 miles over an 85 hour period, 354 miles on essentially no sleep. So how does he do it? Well, the first thing you notice about Harvey is his infectious energy. He also has this just unbridled positivity, and I really think that's a big part of the secret sauce. So today we talk about that. We also of course cover his historic career, the how's and the why's behind his training, his continued improvement, and the role his plant-based diet plays in all of this. We also discuss how he balance his life as an elite ultra marathoner with his full-time occupation as a high school teacher and how these two things actually inform each other. But if there's a theme to this one, it's really the power of showing up, making room for the magic that comes with rigorous, consistent and patient pursuit of the thing you love. It's also a master class on mental toughness, how pushing beyond the limits of what we perceive possible rests not in physical talents, but instead in training mindset. So hit that subscribe button, prepare to fall in love with this guy, because this conversation was just an absolute joy. So here we go. Harvey Lewis and all his resplendent awesomeness. (air whooshing) Harvey Lewis is in the house. I can't believe you came out here to see me, man. I'm so excited to talk to you. It's an absolute honor. Honestly, I'm so excited to be here. In thinking about your story and as somebody who I followed for a long time, I'm very familiar with your career. You're a guy who's been rocking Ultra since the 90s. I mean, you've had this 25-year career of doing this thing and have had plenty of successes along the way. But I gotta say, you're really having a moment right now. Wow. It's crazy. Like you're having huge breakthroughs and winning races at a level that... I don't know, would you have even thought this possible five years ago? Here you are at age 45, just absolutely crushing the game. What is going on? It's amazing. Honestly, like when I think back to all the different stages, starting off in 1996, which 25 years ago, it was my first Ultra and I would never have dreamed where I am today going back 25 years ago, never, ever would have dreamed that even in the last five years to be able to do the things we did this year, it kinda have to like, sometimes I don't feel like it's even real. Well, you're a ball of energy, but it wasn't... How many weeks ago did you do the Big Dog's Backyard? That was in October, right? Yeah, three and a half weeks ago we had the world championship of Big's Backyard, last person standing event in the backyard, last lakes, wilderness in Tennessee. So let's just start there. That race has come up in the past, because we had Courtney in here, who was talking about the last time that she went around the loop with you. (both laughing) This year was a different affair. For people that don't know, maybe explain the format of the Backyard Ultra situation, because it's very unique. Definitely, and Courtney is amazing. So the backyard ultra is basically a race where you do half the races on the trail and half the races on the road. So it's a 4.1, six, seven mile loop. And it goes down to the thousandth of a mile. And even your finishing thing is down to the thousandth Every age, yeah. It's incredible. And this is wild, because Laz actually dreamed this up when he was in high school, he had this idea and it didn't really come to a formantation until like he was in his sixties. And so, it's a race that every 24 hours you're running a hundred miles and you just keep on going until the last person can run the lap. And as you're going, if you don't make it back to the loop in 60 minutes, you're out. Or if you don't start the loop after 60 minutes, then you're out of the race. So you do this for 4.16, seven mile loop on the hour, every hour until literally last man is standing. Last man or woman. Last man or woman, right? Yeah, you can take naps if you finished fast enough to have like seven or eight minutes remaining or 10 minutes, you have to eat like a ton of food and you have to keep your mind in the right place. And you could go as fast as you want. Obviously the faster you go, the more rest you're getting. And as time wears on, you're slowing down. So that window starts to shrink. At the end, you're getting like 12 minutes or so of rest in between. So there's no sleep involved here. Like there's barely enough time to sit down and get something in your belly before you're up and at it again. Yeah, the first year I ran it in 2017, it was completely novel. I had no idea what I was doing. Back then, we didn't sleep, but now I really try to incorporate sleep, because the further it goes, after the first night I can make it through without even caf, like drinking caffeine drinks. No, it's not really a big problem. But once you get into second night and then the third night, you feel like a zombie at times, you almost get to that. You get to those moments where you start to sleep for like a microsecond, like while you're running and you wake yourself up. So sleep has become important component. And on the nighttime loops, you can go faster than on the trail, 'cause it's on the road road. And I would make maybe 48-minute loops or outbacks. So I'd have 12 minutes where I could utilize, just eat as much as humanly possible in five minutes. And I would like lay down for maybe five or six minutes. And I'm not really sure-
Able to fall asleep? I didn't really fall asleep most of the time I would just lay there, but I kind of experimented with it. And I found that even laying down with your eyes shut for like five or six minutes is really powerful. It actually, does revitalize you to an extent, even if you can't fall asleep. Courtney was talking about these one-minute naps where she thought that she was asleep for like an hour and was pissed at her crew, but felt totally refreshed after literally closing her eyes for 60 seconds. Is not. Is that your experience or no? Like how do you train for this? Or like, what is the strategy? Do you try to do this in your training and- Yeah, sure, I did. 'Cause last year that that really impacted me not getting enough sleep. So this year, what I did is, during my lunch at school, I would take a five-minute nap every day. So I would just go into this bigger closet, And just lay down on a yoga mat and literally try to sleep for five minutes. I got to a point where I was two or three days of the five day a week. I would fall asleep for like three minutes, which is kind of wild. But in the midst of the race, there was a lot of things happening. One, your heart rate gets elevated, two, after the second day, you're probably drinking some caffeinated drinks. So you're trying to play like an edge, where you're trying to stay awake on your arm backs, on the second and third night by drinking caffeinated drinks. But on the other hand, you want to fall asleep. And so it's like a tough dilemma there. And I'm not really sure, because the way your mind works, I'm not really sure if I was... At sometimes I would drop into some level of sleep, but I just felt like my mind was continuously running. So I would like be somewhat more conscientious. And you're always waiting to listen for last blowing of the whistle. At three minutes, he blows the whistle three times and then two minutes, one minute, and so you're... I have a really great, amazing crew, chief Judd Poindexter. And so I was able to rely on him and I knew he would wake me up, but you still have like this anticipation that I got to get up and get going, I've got everything organized. And it there's a lot temperature variation too. Like at nighttime, it's cold, in the daytime is warm and your body after late 200 miles, it doesn't do as well, with the heat.
You can't self-regulate. Yeah, you can't regulate the temperature as well. So it ends up being, it's a wild experience just pushing your body. 'Cause that's what is special about this race is it really gives everyone the opportunity to explore their limits. And the other thing is that it's really a pretty interesting race of watch. Like you're in a lot of ultras, you might have an idea of the top two or three runners based on the front field of a race. If you're watching like a Western states and you're like, "Maybe one of those runners might drop out." But you kind of have an idea of who might be the top three or four. In this Backyard Ultra, everyone finishes the loop in a tight position. So, I mean, going into the second day, you have no idea who is gonna be the final run. It's really interesting. It's like, there's so much competition. You have no idea that it's a poker match. You don't know who's feeling good or whose not, because it's just four miles. Yeah, no idea what cards other runners are carrying. Yeah, it's like a poker game. It's a total poker match. But it ends up going off a cliff and becoming like squid game. Yeah, right. When people start dropping off and like the guy, the second place guy, Chris Roberts, he literally was with you until the last loop, but because he started a loop and didn't finish, it's a DNF. Like he doesn't even get second place. Yeah. It's like super harsh. It's brutal, it's brutal. Laz, he is hilarious. Well, Laz always has some element to mess with runners. And so technically everyone that doesn't finish as a final runner, is a DNF. So even if he finished the loop and didn't start another one, would he get second or just everybody DNF, except the person who wins? Everyone DNF's. (both laughing) Except the person who wins. Brutal stuff, second place. Yeah, Laz, is brutal. There's the last person, and that's it. Exactly, so if you're trying to keep your DNF's down, it might not be the best moment. Oh, that's so funny. Well, I mean Lazarus, this guy is like an all time world-class character. He is, he is such a high level of that. Like his philosophy is so interesting to even spend time with him, just because everything he says is so philosophical. And I love how the race is actually named after his dog, Big's. and now he has a little dog, Little, has a race as well named after him. And Laz, you think maybe from the outside that he's extremely masochistic or maybe he's got some sort of like a vendetta, to really be cruel to runners, but he does get some humor out of things. But he really is interested in seeing... He loves watching people work through those extreme challenges and he gets inspired by that. Where does that come from? I mean, he's not a runner himself. He is actually going back into the day. So back in the sixties and seventies, he was a big runner in Tennessee and it's interesting 'cause his dad was actually a NASA scientist and he actually worked on the lunar module coming off the moon. So he's a really brilliant guy and he has a ton of interesting history on his back, but he's kind of taken that he's very particular about organization too. Like if you had talked to his wife, Sandra, like it's so funny, he's got a certain way that every flag has to be rolled out. Everything has to be just perfect. And I mean, we're not even talking about Barkley yet. I know we're getting there, yeah. So he is definitely... I really do admire him for what he is done with the sport and he's captivated people in so many ways that we can't even begin to describe. Yeah, he's sort of single-handedly created a whole new genre of running. The unfinishable Barkley marathons, and this whole backyard format, which he didn't invent it, but he made it a thing here, at least in the United States. Yeah, he actually invented them. Oh, he did? Yeah, he invented that. So it's now spread to over 62 countries and they have hundreds of events, there is over 13,000 people participating already. And it's really exploded in just the last five years, last four years, it's just growing by madness. The format makes it really fun. There's a gamesmanship to it. And I suspect from a race Oregon organizer, point of view, it's a lot easier to conduct, than a race that's traversing like a huge swath of land in a point-to-point kind of way. It's true, yeah. It surprises me at times. 'Cause I'm like, I'll follow their Facebook Page and I'll see posts from Pakistan or Morocco. And I see like all these places where they're formulating this race and it's exciting to see that, I love that. It's also less intimidating, if you're trying to dip your toe in the Ultra world, 'cause you can just go and run four mile loops until you're done. It's not like, "Oh, I have to do a hundred miles "or anything like that." You can just show up and do what you can. So it feels like a little bit more welcoming. Yeah, it is very much welcoming and it's nice because especially the first day, there was a lot of comradery. So it's just like a big party. You get to like, hang out, share stories. It's just like a party in the wilderness and it is moving around, it's fantastic. Well, it's a party until it's not. You ran 354.1667, that's how specific this is, (chuckles) miles, which is 85. They call them yards, right? Right. -
Each, four plus mile loop in 85 hours. I can't even wrap my head around that. And it's so much further beyond anything that you had done in that format or even outside of that format. Like it's a whole new threshold of experience for you. Yeah, it's wild. During the race, I actually went through a low part around like mile, I think about 140 or 170, rather. And it's incredible because I had a battle inside my mind, like the side that was not wanting to submit at all, but I had like a little bit creeping in, I thought of like, "Well, it would be nice to just go relax "in a hotel, and they'll put my feet up." And like, "How long is this thing gonna go for?" And you're only halfway in. And you don't know how long it's gonna go. I had no idea at that time. And so to get through that dark place, I like to share with my crew chief. And having a strong crew chief, is really important in this race. And when I got back to the tent, I made sure no one else was nearby. And I just said real quietly at Judd, I said, "Hey, I'm struggling through this a bit right now." And he came up with a good idea. He's like, "Just visualize that you're running back "and forth to work." 'Cause I run, commute to work. And so that was incredible, because at that point I was really able to just go beyond it and then just focus on each loop and just imagine I was running back and forth to work. It was so easy at that point. Which is kind of about the same distance, right? Three, four miles?
Yeah. It's about the same distance. So it's incredible how just changing your mindset can make such an impact. And I really didn't go through any other... I went through... It was tough in the fourth day, but I didn't go through a point that was like as mentally, like where I was in a dark place like that. And then reframing it through that shift in perspective, gave you this boost that carried you for another 170? Yeah. And I know you had a crazy moment at 300, right? Right, that's a whole nother- Yeah, let's talk about that. TAVI, so yeah, basically once we got into that third night and it kind of becomes automatic and you're just like... You get yourself back to the tent, you're laying down for five minutes, you're eating as much as humanly possible, and you're just lining up at the line again, and you're wondering how long are these people gonna go for? It's a poker game, you can't play your hand, right? You can't let anyone know that you're feeling down. Oh no, no. That would be destruction. So then you just keep on playing it out. And during the third night, there was something that kind of hit me. I think I just got very automatic with it and I felt pretty strong. Like I was just like dialed in, then I was back to my game plan, that, okay, I'm gonna go as long as this thing carries it, however long that might be. And first, Roberts at that time was actually really, really struggling. The Japanese runner, Mori Mori, he was looking strong. But Chris Robertson in the last three loops of the nighttime on the third night, he got to the point where he was actually running sideways. Like he was actually hip scot, like skipping sideways. And I was like, "Wow". I was really impressed by that. I'm like, "And this guy staying in here." Because I was pretty sure he was gonna like tag out. He's got like three minutes left on his loop. And he is so serious to the point where he's willing to skip sideways to get himself down to the... Which was not easy to do. So he pivoted his body and then went- He pivoted his body because his knee was hurt. And he literally skipped sideways. I was like, "You're running sideways after like 200 "and some miles? "These guys are never gonna give up either." Yeah, so I saw some lads. I'm like "Lads, none of the three of us are gonna submit." I said that I think somewhere after like 300 miles, I'm like, "It's just not gonna happen." He's like, "It's going to happen eventually." One way or another, right? Right. So the year prior, when you were going tad-a-tat with Courtney, you pooped out at 240 or something like that? 277, yeah, 277, it should get at 281. When you came up on that kind of mile marker this time, what do you think... how are you able to get to a different gear? Did you do something different in training? Is it experience, what changed? Well, I thought back to 2017, because that's when Jim and I, the French runner, we both were running. We ran like an additional day beyond everyone else. And we ended up going to 241 and I submitted at 241. That was the cyst that year. And I thought about last... Back then he said... He had this big thing about saying, "Okay, I think you guys are gonna... "Someone's gonna make it to 300 miles." And like that year in 2017, his first year I did it. And so his idea of 300 kind of got in my head, and I'm like, "Well, shoot, we're gonna get to 300. "And neither of us are gonna want to quit either. "I gotta get back to teaching." And it just became this number that was like out there. And then last year with Courtney, I told last somewhere before, I think three laps before I stopped, I'm like, "Laz, we've got this, "we're gonna beat a 300. "There's no way we're stopping." And then sure enough, three laps later, my mind wouldn't, it gave up. So I felt at this race, I really didn't wanna give up mentally. Like if I was gonna be out, it was gonna be based on me not making it back in time. Every other time I did this when I submitted, it was because my mind had given up, it wasn't because I timed out. And so this race I won, if I was going to go out, it was gonna be based on not making it back in the 60 minutes. Not based on like, "Oh, I don't think I can go any further." 'Cause last year with Courtney, I've thought it was really amazing running with her, number one. Like we were in a dynamic where we were supportive of each other, which was really special. We both have a history with the 24 Hour USA Team, but like to work with somebody, it makes it just an amazing experience where you're working for something greater. And so last year I just got to this place where I was in my mind. I thought I was losing time on the laps and I didn't think I could make it many more laps. And so I was like, "Okay." I started like hallucinate a bit more. And I said, "Okay, I think this is it." And so I gave up. So this year I've really trained my mind more to not submit. Like if I go out, it's gonna be physical, not- And what does that training look like? Is there a specific program or method to this madness? The methods to the madness. Well, part helped the identity Backyard Ultra in March, where actually was the final person standing. And that was the first time I did that. And so we did that in Ohio Backyard Ultra, it went to about 240 so miles. So that helped to have that victory on my back, to understand what it's like to be the final person, and then leading up to this year, I did two races. I did Badwater, which helped- Which you won. Little Badwater, and then I did the FANS 24 Hour race, seven weeks out. And I did the Superior 100 race, five weeks out. So doing a road race, and then a trail race with 20,000 feet, five weeks out, it helped, including both dynamics, but also conversation with my crew chief. We had it dialed down in terms of what we wanted to do. I think that helps a lot. What are the characteristics or qualities that you look for? Like what makes a great crew chief, a great crew chief? 'Cause I think people really underestimate how crucial, those people are, who are supporting you. And you know, many of us have had experiences. Like we get our friends to do it, or have my wife do it , and my stepsons and it's great, but they're not like dialed in as crew people. And when shit's gone off the rails, like you want someone there who really understands what you're going through and can make sure that you're getting what you need. Yeah, I think it's so important. With the crew, number one is a positive mindset. Like no matter what happens, they are going to have a mindset that's positive. So there could be crazy, crazy things happening, anything you could imagine and no matter what that is, their mind is gonna be positive and they're gonna be looking through problem solving. So problem solving is great. Having someone that is loyal and has your... That's huge, that you feel comfortable with. So it's like they don't have to be an amazing runner at all, at all, not, not at all. It's more important that they are flexible. They're willing to... They're excited about... It's also important to have someone who's excited. You don't wanna have someone come out there who's like, "Oh my God, I will be out here for like..." Can you imagine? And that's a long time. Well, there's-
135 miles is a long time. There's legendary stories about people bailing in the middle of ram and all that kind of stuff. Like, "Wow, this is way more work than I thought." And the crews fighting and they're not getting along. And the whole thing just craters. It's important. I tried to build the crew months and months before the actual event. And I don't have crew for all my races, but like on my A races, I definitely try to build that prior to going. So like Badwater, for example, is a fundraise for the crew component, 'cause you have the crew that is going to basically follow you the whole 135 miles. And it's so important to have a group that gets along together, but also people that bring different dynamics to the team. So someone might be the person that does a lot of miles, but you need someone who's extremely good at like logistics and organizing, that's really important. And, you think outside the box. The crew is really important in a lot of these Ultras, for sure. They gotta be five steps ahead at all times. Do you for example, with Badwater, do you like it when someone's running with you all the time or do you like them to kind of bump and run or what's your kind of mode? So for Badwater I definitely like having someone run with me, it's like after mile 42 now, you could have someone run with you all the way to the finish. And I like rotating it because after a while, I always want someone fresh. So I kind of feel like I take on their energy force. So I get someone new in, it's like I kind of feel their energy, even though I'm running in front of them and it's not like pacing in the traditional sense or running behind you. It's like, I feel their energy force. And it's like, it helps me to go faster. So I like having a rotation, I love having someone with me in Badwater. Sometimes we're not even speaking, it's just being out there and running like a team, it's like, we're wild animals migrating across the plains. And that's huge, is a huge impact. So you're at mile 300 of Big's. Like I gotta hear about this like hallucinatory nirvana moment that you had. Yeah, so this year I would just say like, it was kinda crazy, because you go through these lows and highs, but going into 300, it just felt like we were invincible almost like in Mori Mori, the Japanese runner, he just was fired up. We were both fired up. So once we got past 300, we start doing crazy things. And like some of it was like strategic on my part, trying to like wear him down a little bit. But some of it was just like in passion, like just feeling like fired up and like, let's just go. So we started doing things that you probably shouldn't do after 300 miles. Like we start running up the hill, we've been walking up since day one. And then we start sprinting through the camp. Again, everyone fired up, like just kind of ridiculous things. And sometimes we just like start running super faster to woods and places we probably shouldn't, where you'd like crush. Sometimes we'd be hollering. Like, we'd just start yelling. Not in like aggressive way towards each other, but just because we were fired up and excited about it. So it was wild to hit that mark and then feel all kinds of new energy. I felt in some times more energy than I felt the whole race at like loop two, where I felt more energy. Did you go onto some crazy gear that you didn't even know that you had? Don't even know that you had, like, that was what was so special about it. 'Cause you get beyond 300 miles and then you realize, wow, there's these like... You have more force than you ever had even in the first day. You're like, "Where'd this come from?" Yeah, like where does it come from? What do you make of that? It was like-
For somebody who's pushing the envelope to such an extreme and has been doing this for so long, you'd think you kind of know at this point, like where that limit sits and yet you have this huge... I mean, it wasn't like you went four miles longer than you did last year. Like you just exploded the ceiling on probably what you... 300 being the mark, and then you go so much further past that. And I really didn't think Chris was gonna even submit it. Like when he did at 354 or 350, I sure thought we'd definitely going through the whole night here. 'Cause it's just pretty much, once you hit the road is easier. So as long as you can overcome the sleep deprivation, you don't have like a serious injury. You can usually just make that out and back in the time. And so we were making it with plenty of time. If it weren't for his knee injury, I think we were gone a lot further too. And once he submitted, are you allowed to keep going or that's it? No, it's like guessing the ethics of a race. so you only go one more loop. Right, so even if you... Do you feel like you could have kept going? Yeah, absolutely. I was definitely dialed in for the remainder of that night and that it would've been challenging going back on the loop course and the fifth day would have been interesting, 'cause I don't know how I would have adapted. But then again, you never know and nothing's guaranteed. So I mean, something can change. It can change fast. And so you always trying to just focus on that loop in front of you. Just one loop at a time. If people are watching on YouTube, they see the brace on your right hand, you took the spill, fractured your hand, but you couldn't vent any outward facing pain. You did not... No, no, no, no, no way, no way. Not until the finish. I shook Chris' hand and I was like, "Oh, that's not good." (upbeat music) Yeah, one thing I do actually in races, I don't know how unique it is, but I always like in my A races, I always take on like a spirit animal. And so for this race, my spirit animal was a Honey badger. And so I watched that video, it has 4 million views. And I was serious about while I was going into the race, I was like, I'm a Honey badger. So it doesn't matter what happens, I'm gonna still run. So, on the fourth day a Honey badger fall down on the rocks, it doesn't matter, you just get up, keep on running. At that point of fourth day, I sure got to a place where it was tough. Like the fourth day is hard. Laz didn't really expect people to do that. And it warms up. It's not like really hot, but even like 70 degrees after you've been running for three plus days, it just takes more energy. And yeah, I got a little bit dehydrated doing the running with Mori Mori. Just doing that crazy running probably didn't help things either. Chris Roberts was sitting back thinking, "Man, you guys are gonna kill each other." And like, "I'm fine with this." But Mori passed out. He went unconscious. Unfortunately, yeah, he actually literally fell close to, I think it was maybe 346 miles. He literally fell and knocked himself out, for like 20 seconds or something. But it was enough to just put him over the edge. He didn't make it back. He missed the cutoff by maybe a minute or two. So yeah, it's kind of a crazy race. It definitely is a crazy race, but it's exciting, because of just all the different aspects of it. There's a lot of psychology in the race as well as the physiology. And yeah, it was surprising. Honestly, I didn't feel anything in my hand. I knew I did it, 'cause when I fell, I had no energy. Usually I fall, The first day I felt like three times. I don't think I fell the second day at all, but literally I fell enough. It'd be easy spots. Like where I was like just looking off or talking to someone. But when I fell, I had zero energy to catch myself or to roll. And I just came right down on the hand. I knew right away I did something to it, but I was like, well, it's not like essential. We're gonna deal with that later. I checked my knee, knee was fine, no problem. Just keep on going. It's sort of like that Roger Banister thing of breaking the four-minute mile. Like once he does it, then all kinds of people do it. People have struggled to eclipse the 300 mile mark. There is that, I mean you broke the world record that was set on an easier course in the UK. That was 300, I don't know, 20 or something like that? Yeah, John Stalker, he set that in the UK. So it's not like no one had ever gone over 300 before, but here you have three guys who are all competing against each other, but also supporting each other to kind of break that ceiling. And it'll be interesting to see what happens next year. Like, oh, that's possible. Like, okay, are we going for 400? Is that what's happening now? Who knows? It's absolutely true. I don't think the record's gonna stay there that long. The rate, what is special about it, is that it did happen on Lazarus' backyard, and his event, it is tougher. It's got more technical elements to the course. There's more like elevation climb, but there's a lot of variety. They've now done these backyards in like Mexico where they have like a thousand feet per lap. So it's like nuts. There's a lot of variety, but this was a tougher course to set that record on. But I think you're right. It's gonna be crazy. Like where is it gonna go? Have they done one on a track just to see how far you can do? Like created the optimal conditions for like a crazy record? I don't know about track, it's on the spirit of it. It'd be better to have it like in incorporate trails, as well as the road. Mixing the flip-flop between trail and road. Did you find that helpful because you got a little variety? Mentally, I would think it would be good. Yeah, it's wild because you get to a place where you get tired of one and you're like, "Oh God, I can't wait to get back to the road.". Yeah, so when you got like two or three loops to go, you're like, "Oh my God, it's two more loops "and I'll be back on the road. "I can survive forever." And then when you get back on the road and you're like out there for like nine hours in the dark and we had an amazing full moon. There was coyotes like howling. It was really special like nighttime, but nevertheless after nine or 10 hours of you're out there by yourself, 'cause I wasn't running with Mori Mori or Chris, we're just out and back. So you have a lot of time to yourself to have thoughts within yourself. And definitely, you're so thankful when you get back to the trail. You're like, "Oh, thank God." Did you put anything in the ears? Or you have to go... Do you listen to stuff? Yeah, you can listen to music on the road portion. And I find that very helpful. Laz doesn't allow it on the trail, unless it's like the final two runners. Final two, three runners, then he doesn't really mind, but he doesn't wanna have it on the trail when there's many people out there, you got pass people and stuff like that on a little single track. So the music is really powerful, because if I'm feeling discomfort, it numbs that. So I don't take any painkillers, ever. I haven't taken any since I broke my neck back in 2004 so having the music actually helps me to put my mind somewhere else. If I am feeling like just total fatigue or discomfort, just listen to music, it's really nice to have it on the nighttime. What is the nutrition strategy? How are you keeping calories down after all that time out there? What's the feeling like? Well you just have to look at it as this is all you can eat buffet and be so thankful that you could eat all the food in the world. But it's really important to eat. Like probably 500 calories, 400, 500 calories an hour. That's a lot. It's a lot.
That's a lot to keep down. Yeah, it is. And that's actually where the plant-based foods really helps out, because I feel like I'm able to digest a lot of food, like a ton of food and drinks without having... Like, I very, very rarely have any sort of upset stomach in races, it's like extremely rare. So what's the combination of performance nutrition, like the high calorie drinks versus real food, and what does the real food look like? Right, so I would drink Tailwind, but I also had diversity. So I would have soda as well, I had like coconut water, which was really nice. And then I'd have like things from fruits, like watermelon, blueberries to squeezable fruits, to soups and like vegan mac and cheese, and have like... Judd was actually really good about making up food. That's another thing about your crew chief. Like with this ratio only allow one crew chief or one person in his crew. So it's really important to have someone who is able to make up food for you that knows a little bit about it. He's not vegan, but he's really good. Half the times, he makes me special things, brings it to the race (indistinct). Thank you so much. So if you're not getting 500 calories an hour on fruit, well, that's coming through Tailwind and through mac and cheese and stuff like that? Yeah and also like Abe's muffins from whole foods. I grab a bunch of those. Those are like actually believe it or not, it's like 400 calories or some 300 calories per little muffins and chips. So I'm eating guacamole and I'm eating a lot of things that aren't healthy to eat on a daily basis, just high calorie items, and not really looking too much at my protein content. It's more like wanna get complex carbohydrates rather than just simple sugars. Like I definitely am getting a ton of simple sugars, but I'm also getting complex carbohydrates too. So I mean everything like pastas, soups, things that are easy to digest. Like I'd have mashed potatoes and vegetable broth mixed together. And that was really easy to digest. And especially if it's hot out, then you wanna think about things that are easier to digest then at nighttime I could eat like the hardy items. No stomach upset? No stomach upset.
That's amazing. I think that it gets the best of them. Yeah, it's huge. The Ultra has 10 or 12 major components I can think of that are really important elements to race. Like pacing, pacing is huge, but nutrition is definitely one of the top ones. And like being able to just eat a bean burrito and then just take off, that's a huge advantage to be able to digest that while you're moving and running, it's a big advantage. But also Ultras are famous for like, "Oh, I'm just going to eat pizza, and all kinds of candy, and crap and stuff like that, because I'm burning all these calories out there and then people start barfing, and having the runs and all kinds of stuff happens. Yeah, I think that's where not having the dairy in there, really helps a lot too. I can name it like maybe three or four times in the last five years where I've actually gotten sick in Ultra, that's it. Like literally like three or four times. And usually I can explain what happened in each of those instances. I have to ask you, have you talked to Courtney about this? Does she has her... She served notorious for like her- Oh, the nachos and cheese? Like all the stuff that she eats. Right, right, right. And she occasionally has like a stomach issue in her races, right?
Yeah. And like there's Harvey, he's right over there. I love Courtney. I'm like very respectful about- Of course, I know, I'm not taking anybody's inventory. It's like she's in a ton of different planet. So she's like, knock yourself out, Courtney, whatever works for you. Exactly, so-
Only love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I usually am kind of careful about how I... If someone asks me then I'll share, but I don't usually like... Once in a while I do, but we do share ideas. A lot of times, like on The 24 Hour Team, we'll have something that works really well and the other runners will pick up on it. So I imagine I'd love to collaborate with her more in the future, but I haven't really said a whole lot to her about it. Yeah, completely. I wouldn't either. She's got her nachos and cheese that she loves. If that's working for her, awesome. Maybe this is a good opportunity to dive a little bit deeper into the whole vegan thing. You went a hundred percent plant-based in 2016. Yes. So talk me through what that was about and why you made that switch and what you were doing beforehand. Right, so going back in time, I've actually been vegetarian since 25 years ago when I first picked up Ultras at the same time. And that was just a revolution my life. Just because I felt a transition just overnight. I went from being like Chunk in Goonies, like the chubby kid growing up and not being like one of the top runners at all. In fact, I was usually one of the last runners to finish races. And so- Yeah, I think it took you, like you said, it took you years and years and years to break five hours in the marathon. Yeah, it took me five years to actually break five hours in the marathon. I did get started young, at 15, but it's amazing for me mentally, just to think about chiseling through the little wall, like the count of Monte Cristo, just all the little walls I had to chisel through to get here. I mean, you've been chiseling for a long time. You are like the ultimate, like Harvard Business School test case in like persistence and consistency, 25 years of relentless. You really haven't taken a break, right? You've just been doing this full speed. You have a full-time career and we'll talk about that. But this has been your life for a very long time, which is why I kind of opened it with the question of like, how are you having this break? You would think like you plateau and it would just kind of balance out. And you're like, "Okay, this is where I sit "in the pecking order of things." Especially in the Ultra world where it's kind of notorious, particularly with men where the elite level of their performance seems to have a pretty short shelf life, right? Like we see people who burst onto the scene, they win everything for a period of two or three years or four years or something like that, and then really struggle to kind of match those results. Yeah, it's been incredible. Like it's been an incredible year, but there's a few things that happen in my formula and one is always keeping it fun. So like, I just love what it is. I really genuinely love running Ultras and I love the adventure, I love meeting the people, the opportunities I've had, like coming here today. Travel all this cool places. It's been incredible. So I love the spirit of what it is. So keeping it fun is really important, and then listening to your body. So I think that's a really key component. I'm flexible. Like I know like coming off of Big's, now I'm getting ready for Barkley, but I don't have like a coach. I don't have like a set program, which is interesting compared with Courtney. Like she'll tell you too. She doesn't have like a set routine of what she's doing. Is based like... We're very similar on that domain, because I'll just go out and run. Like this morning, I went and ran. I didn't have any measure of how far I was gonna go. It just depended on how I fell. And so like listening to your body and going by that while you have goals for each week or each month, it really helps you to be flexible. So being flexible and listen to your body, and also different specializations. So I like getting out, running like a 5k. I'm not gonna win that race. sometimes I might a local race, but I'm unlikely to finish like 10th or 12th, or who knows what? It doesn't matter because I'm pushing myself in that area. So not getting caught up into, I have to do only this particular type of thing, getting into swimming, you're doing whatever it is. Like being able to diversify is super powerful as well, because if you're able to run a 5k better, or you're able to get out there and swim a mile, that's gonna make you stronger. When you come back to the vent, you really excel it, and that'll make you stronger in the event you excel in. You're pretty diverse, in terms of distances and terrain. I mean, you've 245 marathon, all right. And you can throw down for a 10 K all the way up. Usually the people who are excelling at the super long stuff, that's the thing they do. There's exceptions to that. Like Jim Walmsley is like rewriting the record book on what's possible in that regard, but you are really, kind of resilient and capable across a multitude of specific disciplines within running. Yeah, I think going back some time, I think people had me pegged as a road runner. Like they thought, "Oh, Harvey does Badwater, "he does a 24 Hour Team. "He's not like a trail runner." But I actually really loved both. Big's gave me out
You've done MDS. show that I love, I love trails as well, is just people maybe assumed, because I live in Ohio, we don't have the big mountain trails that you have, in the Rockies or around the Sierra. And you haven't done Western states or UTA? Those are the two things that kind of stand out, like, where's Harvey? I know it's kind of like a UTMB. I've been out there twice, with other people I've taken out and just run the loop and it's beautiful. And I'd love to run both of those races, of course. And Western states is just like, that's so tough to get in the lottery. So actually this year was the first year I applied. Really? -
Yeah, I did. So I'm thinking maybe, by 10 years from now, I'll get in. Let's see, let's see. (chuckles) I think you'll probably find a way to get into that race rather than later. We'll see. But the original question that we got sidetracked here, was kind of exploring the plant-based pivot. You were talking about going vegetarian earlier in life. It feels like that was more of an ethical compulsion at the time? Yeah, yeah, it was actually. It was kind of a storm that hit me, because my mom had a stroke in 1995 and I just kind of had a reflection on what we had been doing growing up, my mom was a nurse, she was only like 54 at the time, she survived, but it was catastrophic. She lost movement on one side and she also lost speech. So her speech was really impacted. Fortunately she is still alive and she she's living independently. And she's amazing for having that endurance through those difficulties of not being able to speak, but knowing what she wants to say, and surviving all those years. But that really made me reflect on what I was doing in Ohio. What was I eating in Ohio? Like what I grew up eating that I thought was the healthy thing to do. And also I had like, going back to when I was, I guess, maybe a junior in high school, I had like this sort of epiphany that I did make this connection. I was like going through I think, McDonald's and I was thinking about where the food actually comes from. And I think we're really disconnected from where the fruit comes from. And I was thinking about soldering and all that. And I just really didn't want to be part of it, but it only lasted for like a day or maybe even like half a day. And I just didn't know where to go with that. No one was vegetarian in my school, that I was aware of. And there was no options at the line, like the lunch line. So I was like, "Where do I go with this?" So I had that original thought, but I didn't have any legs of run with it. And then when I was a sophomore in college, after my mom had the stroke that summer, I finally said, I need to actually make an effort to research this and find out. And that's when I started like transitioning and I just went over to eating vegetarian. And so, it's the last five years, I finally came in 2016, I've been wanting to do it for a long time, but I thought, "What am I doing? "Why am I still avoiding this? "Like, what is it?" And it was out of convenience. Like I thought it was gonna be an inconvenience for other people, for me to go vegan, or maybe it would be difficult with my travels. I love to travel around the world. Maybe that would affect me. But basically I thought, "I've wanted to do this, I've got to do it." And I just said, "Okay, I'm gonna do this. "I'm gonna start this." And then after literally, I think maybe 10 days, I was like, "What, why did I not do this years ago?" Like it's so easy. Did you feel the difference? I don't know what that felt like in 10 days, like an incredible change. 'Cause I already felt pretty good with eating vegetarian, but definitely within a matter of months, like I noticed changes, like just I would say my performances, I had my fastest marathon ever, like in 2018. Yeah, so that was my fastest marathon ever. And I like, notice that I was getting faster after that case. Right.
Yeah. So this is attributable to just improve recovery, right? Yeah, yeah, that's the biggest thing. Yeah, thanks. So what I found is that my speed of recovery is ridiculous. It's just crazy. For example, I did that 24 Hour FANS Race, seven weeks before Big's. 13 days later, it ended up being a 19-Hour-Race, because we had like these crazy lightning storm, but ran, I think over 120 miles in 19 hours. And then 13 days later I did the superior 100. With a 20,000 feet of climbing. So it's kind of crazy. What is your monthly mileage? Is not nice. Honestly, I ended up averaging a hundred miles a week, hopefully. When you're packing a bunch of those races. That's the real training for the bigger races. The races themselves are part and parcel of the training. Yeah, I have A races, those are the ones I'm just like all forces in. I'm actually gonna taper for and not have like B and C races. C race is a like, okay, there's races weekend, I'm like done zero taper, I've run a hundred miles this week, I'm gonna go run this, it's good training, but it's important not to overdo it. I don't typically do races 13 days apart. I might do that once a year running, like this year, I've run seven Ultras and I've run maybe like 10 other races alike marathons to like three, 3.1. So it's important, 'cause if you run an Ultra every three weeks, two weeks, you're just not gonna survive. You're gonna end up burning your passion out or you're gonna end up just hurting yourself potentially. Yeah, it's important to think about. Sure, sure, but you do this string of Ultras back to back. And the point you were making really is just the benefits of eating plant-based allowed you to kind of bounce back in a way that you hadn't prior. Absolutely, I mean, it's just incredible. Like a lot people traditionally might say, "Oh, you need X number of protein, grams of protein a day, "or you need this and that." But by just eating a balance of variety, eating healthy whole food based items, it's incredible how quickly you can get your body to recover. And when I was in my twenties and my thirties, I can remember feeling like aches in my legs or just like fatigue that lasts a long time. And now it's like crazy, but it doesn't last long even after doing Big's. I mean, I left Big's. That was kind of a wild experience because after I finished, I really didn't want the event to end. It was so much fun to have something I dreamed about for years, come to fruition and it was just incredible. I just felt like, it was too exciting to end. So I literally just slept in the tent that night. That was like 20 meters away from the finish line. But the next day I ended up like driving back to Cincinnati. I didn't get back to like 11:00 PM and went out and did my mile run. 'cause I had like a run streak- Streak, right? Yeah, run streak, going. So you get home at 11, and you went running? Went for a mile run. And then my student teacher, his wife or fiance is an ER doctor. So she said, "Hey Harvey, you should go "to the university hospital and get this checked out." So after the mile run at midnight, I went over and got my hand x-rayed and then I was there for a few hours. They had some good laughs with me. And now I got back home, I ran to work the next day, like at seven or something like that. So it was wild. Just running to work, I felt pretty good. I felt that I ran a good distance, but it's like that process of healing, it already like started to really happen on it. And it happens really fast. Sorry to interrupt the flow. We'll be right back with more "Awesome". But I wanna snack a moment to talk to you about the importance of nutrition. The thing is most people I know actually already know how to eat better and aspire to incorporate more whole plants, more fruits, vegetables, seeds, beans, and legumes into their daily routine. Sadly, however, without the kitchen tools and support very few end up sticking with it. So because adopting a plant-based diet transformed my life so profoundly. And because I want everybody to experience some version of what I've experienced, we decided to tackle and solve this very common problem. The solution we've devised, I'm proud to say is the plant power meal planner, are affordable all-in-one digital platform that sets you up for nutrition excellence by providing access to thousands of highly customizable, super delicious and easy to prepare plant-based recipes. Everything integrates with automatic grocery delivery and you get access to our amazing team of nutrition coaches, seven days a week, and many other features. To learn more and to sign up, visit meals.richroll.com. And right now, for a limited time, we're offering $10 off an annual membership when you use the promo code, RRHEALTH at checkout. This is life-changing stuff, people for just a $1.70 a week, literally the price of a cup of coffee. Again, that's meals.richroll.com, promo code, RRHEALTH for $10 off an annual membership. All right, let's get back to the show. What do your students think about all this? What's the vibe like? I wanna do a vibe check while you're at work. They are amazing. Do they have a concept of like, what's actually going on? There's a lot of variety there. They're super supportive. I have this just amazing group of students, SCPA is a really neat school. It's like K through 12 public art school. Where our kids all have majors in the arts. Some are ballet, some theater, it's like all over the place. So they have incredible energy already. And they're already doing so many amazing things. So for me to be doing this is just kind of like, I just fit in, like they're doing their own, we have a major musical happening right now, Greece. But they do get excited about it. And they're like, "You ran how far?" "You did what!" (crosstalk) "What is that? "Where is that? "I don't understand what'd you do?" Are there sports teams at the high school? We have like a basketball cheerleading, ever running club that we organized, yeah. But it's not like a sports. Right, it's a different kind of school, I get it. It's arts, all kinds of arts. They are amazing at arts. So everybody's really eclectic and into different kinds of stuff, it's cool. You will love it, you would absolutely love it. You get through Ohio, we would love to have you as a guest speaker In our school.
I would love to come. My eldest daughter is senior at the LA version of that. The LA performing arts high school here. That's neat, what's her major? Visual arts, painting and sculpture. It's so amazing. I love that (indistinct). We went back east and we're looking at art colleges and stuff like that. That's what she wants to do. That's so incredible. I watched some videos of you at your school and stuff like that. And I was like, "Yeah, it's very similar "to my daughter's school." So I think I get the vibe. There're special places that are different than typical high schools and the kids are also unique. Yes, they are. I get a lot of positive energy from my students. There's no doubt about it. It's like a two way street, I give, but I probably get back a lot more and I give, for sure. Right, so that kind of leads me into this thing I was curious about, because I suspect along the way, you've probably had opportunities or been tempted to just be a professional runner, like get a shoot contract and they pay you equal, or maybe even more than you're getting paid as a teacher. And you could just do the thing. But clearly you're getting nourishment out of your profession in a way that doesn't make sense for you. Yeah, I always like to joke with my fiance, Kelly. Who's also an amazing part of my life. She gives me a lot of energy as well, but she's a teacher as well. And I always joke like, well, if I don't play the lottery much, maybe once every five years, but if I play the lottery and it's like millions, millions of dollars, I'm like, if I win this lottery, I'm still gonna go back to teaching. I'm still teaching. I'm not leaving teaching if I win the lottery. Now maybe gonna do something special with the money, create some scholarships or something at my school. But I'm not leaving it. I really enjoy it. It's a lot of fun, so it's something that... I have my challenging days, there's no doubt about it. Like definitely we have our tough days too, but overall there's a lot of... It's an incredible experience to be able to work with young people when they're at that crossroads in life. And they're like, "Okay, where do I wanna go next? "I'm 16, 17." I have the juniors and seniors. "So where do I wanna go next with my life? "What pathway do I want?" It's kinda needs to be there at that moment and get to guide them a little bit, but it's an exciting life period. That's cool. That's so refreshing to hear how much you enjoy doing it. It just makes me feel hopeful about humanity. You know what I mean? Like the fact that you're like, I would do this no matter what. Like, I don't know, man, that's cool. Those kids are lucky to have somebody like that. Like you.
Thank you very much. So during the week you have this thing where it's partially training, but also partially sustainability minded that you're a human power commuter, you got this three mile track to and from work. So you run to work, you run to school in the morning and then you run home. And during the week that's kind of like your training. I'm sure you go longer on some days versus others, but like you're at the school all day. So it's not like as the social runner you're going out and running 40 miles every single day or anything like that. I suspect it's rather contained like during the weekdays. It's a really important part of my training. I run basically three miles to work, but a lot of days ends up being like longer, go two or three days a week, I might run like eight or 10 miles back and forth. And it's a really nice way to get the day going. It gives me a chance to reflect on what's happening for the day. Like we're all want to focus in on. And I think having that, it, having that energy, it kind of prepares you for being like a speaker or being interacting with students. And then at the end of the day, if you had a rough day, it definitely helps as well. 'Cause it's like running is therapy. You have a chance to think about, "Okay, what happened with that student? "What could have I done differently with that situation "that will work better or maybe what shall I do "with class next week? " So I have those thoughts, but I also have thoughts like, maybe it was just a challenging day or maybe I'm exhausted. And in running home literally, again, reinvigorates me to transition to that second part of life. So I'm able to leave stresses that are work-related at work and not carry them with me. And I think that's powerful tool running, is free virtually, and it's like such great therapy for us. No matter what your situation is, having that running is a really powerful thing. The other thing about is I run with a backpack. So I'm running with a little weight for 30 plus miles a week. And that definitely helps and sustain has some hills. So you get a little hill training in. How do you avoid injury? I've got Mr. Miyagi. Tell me about this guy I'm ready to get on a plane and go visit this guy. You're invited, you'll stay at my place. It's only like a half a mile away, but Andy Chevroly does active release therapy. And people can seek out sports massage or physical therapy and things like that, but I've just found it really powerful. Like I typically will see him three times a month. And then if I'm having ever an issue, like I would just go see him like twice in like a week and he can usually fix it into two visits. Like so painful ERT, can be? Oh yeah, it's not painful at all. We keep it like on a scale of one to 10, like a four or five. We believe it's better. His practice is better to just have a little bit of an impact on like breaking up scar tissue or whatever it is without making it painful. I'm not into leg pain. I had a few pretty painful therapy sessions, where I had to go, and it's just like excruciating. In a good way, you need it. You always feel amazing afterwards. It's one of those key components. Sleep is another one. So I think I really believe in sleep and I think it's important. If you look at the top marathoners in the world, they actually are getting like nine or 10 hours of sleep and a nap in a day. I mean, if I wasn't working, I would probably take a nap every day too. I think it's a great thing. But I think getting seven or more hours of sleep is really important. Like as important as whatever you're doing physically. I think it's really important to you. Government is what you teach, right? Yeah, I teach government, AP government, and that's why I was really excited to listen to Andrew Yang and your podcast with him. Yeah, what do you think? (indistinct) Yang gang? Well, I was very intrigued by him, I love his energy. I think he brings a strong dynamic that we need. I feel like we need that voice. And I know I have students that are attracted to him as well as like a candidate. But yeah, I think we need a change, we definitely need to change in America. There's no doubt about it. We need like some positive energy infused and that's one of the things with running. Like I really like the fact that running brings us together. I don't think about someone who's being Republican or Democrat. I have friends of both extremes and it's like running, Sometimes we get on topics and we're like, "Okay, let's switch a topic here." But yeah, I like that running brings us together. Yeah, it has an amazing power to do that. To just unite the best of us and bring us together in a way that few other things can. And it's beautiful for that and for so many other things, but one of the reasons I asked you about teaching government is that you've done a couple of cool things with your running that I think are really unique, in and outside of the Ultra space, like you went and ran Gandhi's Salt March in 2008, and then you did the Selma to Montgomery route in 2009. So it's this cool way of applying, a really practical civics lesson and melding it with your running to have a boots on the ground experience of what those historical occurrences must've felt like. Absolutely, yeah. I really believe in experiential learning. I would love to take every one of my students to Selma, to do the summit trail every year. That would be incredible, but we're limited by time and resources. So having the opportunity to go down there with a group of 10 friends... The second time I went down there and to bring that back and share that with students... When I was down there the first time in 2000, I think it was seven. I got to actually meet with civil rights leaders like Mother Cooper, Amelia Boynton Robinson, these folks were reaching a hundred years of age. And so to get a chance to actually speak with them and interview them about their experiences, Harry Belafonte, to chat with these people and really get pieces of the story that you don't read about in the textbook, that was powerful. To bring that back and share that with my students and say, "Look, this is what I heard from Mother Cooper "and her experience with the sheriff, "what was like when they were trying to overcome, you know, "the literacy tests." That just makes it breathe life into what you're trying to teach about when you talk about the 1965 voting rights act and I love that. I would love to do that for every unit I have. And then the Gandhi experience, that was a whole nother story, that when we could probably spend a few hours on, but Gandhi, is an individual that I deeply admire. So many facets of what he was able to achieve based on the resources he had. And following the 240-mile journey, I start off my cousin and his girlfriend. They broke up on the second day and they ended up going cruise the head. Eventually they ended up getting married, so it all worked out. But sign up by myself, out there in India from day two, just carrying... I thought, well, if Gandhi could survive with 10 items, I should be able to like survive a month with 10 items as well. So I'm just running through the countryside in these super intensely urban, very polluted cities, Unfortunately the air pollution, there was really strong. It's a lovely, lovely country. And the people I met were so generous. I met farmers that didn't have anything, but they would want to offer something to me, offer food or whatever they could give me. And they were so generous. The generosity I experienced amongst the people in India. And then it kind of took off while I was there too. Like they were writing about in the "Times of India" every day, and so every other truck driver would be honking at me and waving. And it was tough, because it was so hot, it was like a hundred degrees, but the humidity was really hot and I wasn't as strong as I am now. And so I even had blood in my urine on the third day, which I've never had ever before or since, it was just from overheating myself and pushing myself too hard. I destroyed my feet. I had like a thousand blisters. I had to get these bamboo sticks. One day I found a big chunk of ice on the ground. I was so thankful for that chunk of ice. I was like, "It's so hot, "oh, so you're gift from the heavens." I've never been so excited about chunk of ice. 10 items? Yeah. You only brought 10 items with you? So what were the 10 items and where you just camping? Did you have a backpack or was this like a self-supported thing? Yeah, it was a self-supported, I didn't really have a plan. I was kind of just winging it, and so I start off at the ganesh room and they basically escorted me out city with all these scooters and they had the media there and everything. And basically the first night or first couple of nights, they organized for place for me to sleep. But the first night I slept in the middle of this village, just out on a bed, outside the small, small home. And it was kinda funny 'cause I look up and there was like 20 villagers circled around me just looking down at me and I'm like, "All right, can I sleep a little bit?." But then I've met other people like this gentleman, Patel. It was like the sixth day he invited me to stay with his family at his house. I just met him out on like this lonely road. And he still keeps in touch with me today. So like maybe once a month, he'll call me and say, "How is your family? "How is everything in Cincinnati? "It's pretty neat." But at the end we were met by a principal of a school for deaf and blind children. And they escorted me like the last mile. So we shared that mile together, and that was super amazing. Like I could never put a value on that, sharing that experience with those kids was incredible. And now when you think about Gandhi his civil disobedience and what that Salt March must've been like, you have a whole rich history of experience to draw upon that makes that come to life in a way that it can't in a textbook. Yeah, absolutely. I met a guy who shared stories about his father. He brought me a sheet of paperwork. Gandhi had written his father a note on it and it was as much a connection with Gandhi's story as it was the local people, because the people were so... Even though they didn't have a lot of material wealth, they were extremely generous with their time and whatever they had, they would be willing to give it to you. So a lot of times, I'll stop in these tiny little like stores, like a little shack that's selling goods and they wouldn't let me pay and say, "No, you're going to have to take that. "You can't pay." I was like, "Thank you." Right, and they have nothing. Yeah, nothing. Wow. You seem like a generally happy, very positive guy. Like you have this sunny disposition. I'm looking at where's the dark side. Is there a dark side? When I look at you, I see somebody who... That disposition is really a big part of how you're able to weather such mental toughness when the chips are down in these races. I see the same thing in Courtney. She's like the world's a good place and it's gonna be fine and let's have a good time. And that's an under appreciated superpower. It's how I feel. I do have my moments, but I try and get myself through those moments by focusing on good things, like the good things. There's a lot of rough things out there that we can all get ourselves caught up in. But focusing on the people in our circle, focusing on the experiences that we can have in life, it can be a superpower, I guess. What kind of kid were you? I was a challenging kid, I was a big challenging kid. I have to go back to like my parents getting divorced when I was like five. So I grew up in this remote area of Pennsylvania when I was really young, a place called Chalkhill, Pennsylvania. And then I moved to a suburb of Cleveland with my mother. So had a challenge for me, well, When I was going to school, I really struggled. I was a D student, F student, all the way up until like 10th grade. I was really a struggling student. I was literally placed in learning disability classes because I was a problem- 'Cause you didn't care or you couldn't pay attention? It was a variety of things. I was a challenging with my behavior. I'd do my own thing. (laughs) Not like a bad kid, like I'm listening to anybody? Yeah, I wasn't causing fires, but yeah, I wouldn't listen. I'd be often like challenging. I just would be really challenging. Is part of that your coping mechanism for the trauma of the divorce, when you look back on that? Probably some of it was because of that, a little bit. And then also I think like learning styles, like my learning style, I got behind my first couple years of elementary school, like saw I wasn't a good reader, I struggled. I think that some of my teachers in the earlier grades they'd won, like kind of pushed me off in the corner. 'Cause I was just, what do you do with this kid? I've got a ton of stuff going on. It's challenging to work with this student, you know? And then you start to believe that you're the kid who can't learn or. Yeah, yeah and then I just had this mindset that I just couldn't learn. It was really true. I had some amazing teachers along the road. I had this Mrs. Ganesh, with my elementary school teacher in special ed, I really struggled with reading comprehension and my self-efficacy. So I really didn't think I could do it. And I had a big, giant change was when I went and did the marathon when I was 15. What prompted that. I've always been sort of a curious about challenges. Like even when I was a chubby kid, I was always kind of curious about... I'd always wanna go climb up the hill. That it doesn't look like it's very climbable or do things like that. And the marathon just intrigued me. It cut into my morning cartoons when I was a kid, like, I'd be watching on Saturday, I'd be like, "What the heck is this?" But I got drawn in, I was watching it when I was probably like 11, 12, somewhere around there, 13. So I knew about this Cleveland marathon and for whatever reason, I was like, I wanna do that, I told my mom when I was like eight days, nine days before the race, I wanna do that marathon. And she was like, my mom always say okay to everything. So she said, okay, we'll sign you up. So I went down there and got signed up for the marathon. The furthest I ran at that time was like eight miles. And this is like, what? Like you won? Like 91, yeah, exactly, when I was 15. So I was a freshman in high school. My coach at the time said, I ran one marathon and it was miserable. There's no way you wanna do that. (laughing) Thanks for the pep talk. I know, and everyone else on the team is like, "Harvey," 'cause I'd usually finish towards the back of the group. They're like, "Harvey, there is no way "you're gonna be able to finish that marathon." And it's unusual then for somebody that young to do something like that.
Back then. The idea was you could harm yourself or you get permanent damage. So I end up going down and I had to get down there by myself, that digs mom was working at the hospital and I ran the first ten miles. Like I thought it was no problem at all. I think I went real fast. I got to mile 10, I just about like, "Man, I'm a die, "How in the world am I gonna even finish this thing?" so I ran and walked the rest of the race. And I met up with a couple of other runners and that helped me out a lot. And I ended up finishing that race. I can still visualize the finish line. And it just seemed like it was a country away. Like I would never happen. But finishing that race was monumental for me at the time, because I had never experienced that kind of success. So even though I finished it, like over five hours, to me, just finishing the marathon was a huge giant of success. Especially when everyone was telling you it was impossible. Impossible, yeah. So, that changed my mindset. And then after that, I started applying myself in school. And so, it would still take me probably two and a half, three hours to do what someone would do in like 30, 40 minutes, like writing a paper, but I put a lot energy and thought into it. And then I end up really doing much better. I end up like turning around from being a D student that really didn't believe in themselves, didn't wanna put themselves out there for the risk of failure or whatever it might be, or didn't think that I could do it to being like, "I'm just gonna apply myself until I do do it." So it was a monumental change for me. That's really powerful to hear, the idea of going out and doing something hard and then learning as a young person that you can apply that well, or that determination to these other areas in your life. And most people who get relegated to the side in the educational system, I don't have to tell you as a teacher, like that's all she wrote. It becomes very difficult for that person to inch their way back in and find a path to self-efficacy short of finding something outside of the academic realm that gives their life sort of direction and purpose like you did. Yeah, for our school at SCPA, I think the arts do that for our kids. Finding that vehicle through the arts is super powerful, but finding some vehicle to motivate kids is revolutionary, is huge. It's the whole game, man. It's huge and it's hard. I think that me having the background that I do, where I really struggled through school, And so like my sophomore junior year, and then I really took off, it does help me a bit with some of my kids are like on that same edge where they're struggling and I can kind of relate to them and I can understand what it's like to not do well, and to try to turn around. Don't crack them though? I don't always crack it.
It's tough. It's very tough, but when you do with one or two, or however that is, then it's like, wow, that's like a wow moment. Do you ever invite any of the students to run with you? Oh yeah, we have a running club at school. There's been different things- It's an excuse for you to get a third run. Yeah, it is, it is, it is. But a number of students have really taken off with it. One of my students, Logan, he got into running clubs so much. And then he ended up doing Ultras and another one, Chris Meyer, and is kind of neat to see them getting into it. And actually Logan was at Badwater this year (indistinct) one of our racers. So that was really cool to have happen.
That's really cool. One time actually, one of my students, 'cause I was trying to really get his mind, focus on his mind, but I actually raced him on his bus. Like he took the bus home to his house, and I raced, and I beat him. I said, "I'll race you home. "You take the bus, I'm a run, I'm a beat you. He's like, "No way you gotta be..." So I did it and that was fun. So it was kind of like a breakthrough 'cause then we were able to build upon that. But there's no cut science entirely with teaching. You have to always be adapting and trying new things. Well, that 14 to 18 kind of span of time, which is where my parenting falls right now, between two different kids trying to figure out that way and is so tough. And on some level it's like, it's not for me. Like they don't wanna hear it from their parents. It has to be through someone like you or somebody else, that they can look to for inspiration. But you know, try, I must. (laughs) it's that age where it's like, they don't wanna hear it, they don't wanna be around you. it doesn't matter what you say, it doesn't matter what you do, you're just the furthest thing from being influential on that level. And it's a powerlessness that you feel as a parent that makes it really hard. It's just like, I can see here's where I could wedge my way in and maybe nudge this young person in this direction, but they're not having it. And they gotta find it for themselves or they gotta hear it from somebody else. Yeah, my son is 25 now. And I went through that when he was a teenager. It's like I tried every angle and it's just like during those years we really struggled, but I'm happy to say that now it's come full circle is like really we have a much better communication now than we did when he was like in those teenage years. Yeah.
Yeah. Well your relationship with your dad is super interesting as well, right? So the divorce happens. You go to live with your mom and your- I don't get the sense that you are a strange from your dad, but you just didn't know him. Like he wasn't in your daily experience, right? Well, my dad was really good about communicating with me. Like every Sunday we had a conversation and it would be annoying to me at the time. It'd feel like a lecture, but it was also a way for us to stay connected 'cause he had moved to Minnesota, fond the divorce. And we also spent time in the summertime. So we would typically... He exposed me to actually it's a wilderness. Like we would go when I was in seventh grade and then also ninth going or maybe 10th grade, we went to different trips out west to the Wind River mountains. So having that experience with my father, even though it was limited on time, was super powerful as well as valuable to me. like I told you, I had the breakthrough with the marathon, but there were other things that... Having my parents in my camp were important. A couple of years ago you take a crack at the fastest known time for the Appalachian trail and you use this also as an experience to create a deeper connection with your dad and you make this documentary out of the whole thing. So talk a little bit about that, 'cause this is really super touching. It's like a running thing, but it's kind of not. It's about something else altogether. And I think it's really cool. I haven't had a chance to watch the whole thing, but I watched a couple, I watched the trailer and then read up on it and stuff like that. So tell me more about this project. Definitely. So I came up with the idea of going for the fastest known time on the 80. And we set out for it in 2018 and I was looking at... One of the biggest challenges is the logistics, like who is going to crew you? I mean, if you're going for a supportive record, it's like 40... It was 45 days at that time. And like having someone with you for 45 days, that's a major contribution, is a major commitment. So I had a lot of friends that could come out for maybe two or three days. My friend Alan Lopez could come out for three weeks but I needed someone who could be there the whole time. And I don't know if I want to do this to my dad. He's 79, that's a lot of intensity to be driving on these rural roads. And there are no road signs. And like you have to navigate and stay up. Who's in more apparel? You on the trail or your dad in the van? Exactly, I was really concerned on some days, but my dad, he is a strong man. Honestly, I don't know anyone as tough as he is and a sense of his mental strength and ability to problem solve. He's got engineering background. He said, "yeah, I'd like to come on out." And it'd be a blast. And then it became not just going for the record, but actually having this opportunity to spend 50 days with my father is like priceless. You know what I mean? Like we'd never get that opportunity. It's like we might have like a week here or a week there and we never have 50 days together and going for something so tough, like getting up every day at 5:00 AM and going until 10 or 12 at night, every single day, you're trying to cover basically like almost 50 miles a day. And it's incredibly difficult. It's like probably the most difficult thing I've done. You get to day three and you're like, everyday you're climbing 10,000 feet, a third of the height of Mount Everest, and you're like, "Wow, when is this ever gonna end?" It never gets easier. It's always some element of challenge to it. But having my father along, it gave us opportunities to... It just was so nice to arrive at 10 o'clock at a station he set up with some oatmeal and we just have like oatmeal for 10 minutes, five minutes, eight minutes. Have a little Tuesdays with Morrie moment. That moment, I mean, it meant a lot. And so simultaneously, we had this film that was being shot by road ID, "Like Harvey, Like Son" and Rudy Harris who directed and produced it, he did an amazing job. Like I didn't see that initially as a story, like I thought, "Okay, we're gonna do this documentary "on the fastest known time. "It's gonna be really neat because we're gonna have these amazing shots of the 80 and we're gonna get talked to people on the trail, but then he became much more interested. Here's the story, what's going on between these two guys? It was so much more interesting to focus on my father, but he's way more entertaining than I am. And he's sitting there talking to people and giving out food through hikers. And it was just it... And then seeing the dynamic between he and I, I really had to rely on his... He didn't say one negative thing the whole time for 50 days. So that's where you get it? One day a thing. Yeah, I do get a lot of that from my father. And he said, sorry to interrupt. It's funny that you're like, he's so entertaining. 'Cause he says in the trailer like, "Harvey so charismatic, I'm not, "I'm just a guy." Like he's downplaying his own charm. Yeah, he's got a ton of charm. And I think he actually is the main star of the film, but yeah, it was a fun documentary and it's amazing to be able to have that peace with my father that's there it's like forever, forever. Right now they're in works with a major platform. So the hope is that it will come to a larger streaming service in the months ahead. Yeah, it's kind of a self release thing at the moment. Right, at the moment, actually it got a little sideswiped by the pandemic. So initially we were supposed to have a big opening out here in Hollywood, like a big few theaters and kind of like generate, it was gonna be at several hundred theaters across the country. Oh, wow. But it was supposed to come out, I think it was like literally a month after the pandemic started in April. Sorry man. It's okay, it's what happens. So I ended up going to like 50 theaters or 60 theaters, I'm not sure- It did get a theatrical release though? I didn't know that, wow. And it won a number of film festivals, believe it or not it won I think 11 different film festival awards. And so it has some really very nice components to it. I'm just grateful to have it out there, but I'm hopeful that we can get it to this streaming service. Well, obviously we'll link it up in the show notes, but the website is likeHarveylikeSon.com. So people should just go there and check it out and stream it. And I definitely will. I'm gonna watch it tonight. I should have watched it now. I feel bad that I didn't watch it before the podcast. No worries. So Barkley, this is what the sites are on right now. Like why is this freaking thing so hard to crack like 15 people in the last 30 years have finished this thing? It's incredible.
What is the deal? Since 1986. So why is it so hard? Lazarus has created the most incredibly difficult race you can imagine, for number of reasons. It has 120 miles. Like that's not that big of a deal, but the fact that it's got- It's all relative. All relative, yeah. You just ran 354 miles. So like 120. It's supposed to be a hundred, but really it's like ends up being 120, because you have to navigate. So only 20% is on trail and 80% is off trail. So that extra 20 is built in because you know you're gonna go off the course and stuff? Yeah, everybody knows that it's longer than a hundred. So you just want to think already, like you said, you don't prepare yourself for what it's gonna be. Then you got close to 60,000 feet of elevation climbing. So that's like two times up Mount Everest and back down in 60 hours. And then you have going in the fog at nighttime. Imagine you're off course or you're on a course, that's off trail and it's pitch-black, it's gonna be maybe a quarter moon, there's fog. You basically are relying on somewhat intuition, somewhat on your compass. I'm carrying that with me now all the time. (chuckles) Orienteering kind of thing. Little bit orienteering. And then not only that, you have to follow Laz's riddles that he has written in his own language to where these books are hidden. And so there's 14 books shift. You have to find find the one that's maybe at the state penitentiary, that they have there. You have to find one underneath a rock that's by the Birch tree. It's very encryptic. So it's a challenge once you get like yourself to a place where you've been going for 36 hours and you have to navigate at nighttime and you're tired, you've had sleep deprivation. Most people don't sleep even the night before the race, 'cause they're waiting for the conch shell to be blown and they're like have a hard time falling asleep. So it becomes really important to take mental record of where you're going because you also rotate loops every other loop. So you're going into a different direction, every other loop. So there's so many components to this race that add to the difficulty including the elevation. Imagine climbing up and down Everest in 60 hours and it's not like on a road or like a path it's on like this muddy climb, up like a steep embankment with thorns. It's very challenging, but that's what I love about it. So how do you get your head around that and sort of customize your training to be in the best kind of prepared state that you can. Yeah, that's what I love about taking on these new challenges. Like Badwater is such an extreme, like the hot environment. This now, I'm starting to not think about things in terms of mileage. So now I've never done this before. I know a lot of runners out here do this, but now I'm starting to think about, and just in terms of like vertical ascend. So now like I'm actually plotting down. I never did it before, I never really cared about, I just like, but now I'm writing down every week, what my vertical ascend is and every day, what that is. And I'm literally seeking out every single hill, mountain, molehill I can find. And when I can do it, on the weekend, I go to like a state park in Ohio and I just literally go right off trail, right through the brush, the thorns, everything. I just go straight off trail and I just go get lost, and then try to find your way back. You need to have like a buddy of yours, kidnap you in the middle of the night and blindfold you and just like drop you out of the trunk of a car somewhere. And you don't know where you are and it's like, "Good luck, buddy, you better get home." That's an idea, I might actually use that one. Yeah, that's a good thought. What's the tallest skyscraper in Cincinnati? And we have. Yes, I don't think that's gonna be a... It's probably not. I don't think that's gonna do it. It's not tall enough, reach by me- But at least conveniently located if you wanna get some (indistinct) during the week or something. Yeah, fortunately Cincinnati is a city of seven hills. So we do have great hills in Cincinnati. So I just go up and down the hills and it was really that element of also being out in the environment. Like that's another thing, just being comfortable being out when it's like dark and it's 3:00 AM. So I'm not gonna train every day, like running at 3:00 AM, but I have to be comfortable, be out in the middle of nowhere and just being out in the dark at 3:00 AM in the middle of nowhere. Like you're a contestant in a reality show or something. Exactly. So you ended up doing this kind of crazy training. Every one of these major races involves a degree of some new, crazy training that I love. Like try and be creative. I think that the creative element is so important in Ultras. And it's also, under-recognized as a pivotal element as being creative. Well, one of the things that you do part of it is this human power commuting is like you kayak to work sometimes, or I think you even swam. Yeah, I've swam a few times. To mix it up and like keep it fun and fresh and experience a little bit of cross training benefit too. Definitely, definitely. Yeah, I was surprised I saw on Instagram, you hit the pool, on the fairly regular, don't you? Not enough, honestly I do it seasonally, there's an outdoor pool I like to go to- It's like a city pool, right? It's a city pool right in the heart of the city and it's under utilized as well. So I'd like to get out there when they're opening the season for it. And if I had a pool like that, that was open year round, I probably utilize it more, but I just kinda go with seasons. Like sometimes I'll get into something like that for just a season. And like in the winter time, I literally, from my January, February, I usually like sign up for a gym that has a big movie theater that you can just run on the treadmill, and I just like watching the movies and yeah, I'll do that in like January, February. But the last couple of years, I haven't because my races have involved more element being out in elements and with Barkley, you have to just throw yourself out in that. No treadmills. No, even- Laz would not approve. Laz would not approve even like being subjected to more cold, it's going to be very cold in that race. Like when you're up on the ridge line, and maybe you're gonna be in the twenties or it could be in the thirties, this week it's gonna be down, 19. So it gets windy. When is the race? I can't set an exact date, but it is in March. Yeah, so it's secreted. You know, but you can't say it. I know but I'm not allowed to say. Right, right, right. Why is secrecy around the date? Well, right now it is become just an incredible phenomenon in terms of like, people are so excited about it. So he wants to like- Is that part because of the Netflix documentary? That's definitely part of it, so it has a huge following. I posted about that was in the race, which is a little about- The condolences? Yeah my condolences but people knew I was gonna get into it, because I have one big backyard. And that was one of the benefits of what I want from winning Big's, was I got into the Barkleys, so I get some more punished. But you're being shamed for even talking about it. It's like fight club. Are you not allowed to say anything? No, you can say a little bit about certain things, but you can't say the date. But like he has had challenges with a lot of people or people showing up that aren't supposed to be there and it's a relatively small space, like at the campground and things like that. So they don't want people showing up like those dates and then lesser like invited guests. Well, good news because we're heading into winter. So you're going to get a fair amount of cold weather in Cincinnati. So I can see you out there shirtless. I don't know if I'm gonna be there everyday, but I might try like probably on my run commutes to school a couple of days a week where I'll probably just wear a T-shirt and shorts, even if it's like 20 degrees or 15 degrees, but not every day, not every day. It's like with Badwater I only train for heat a couple of days a week. Like it's better for your mind. And we might as well spend at least a minute on that. 'Cause I think, I know what you did, but that would blow people's minds to know the kind of heat acclimation work that you put in. Badwater is definitely my favorite Ultras in the world. It's not that far from your home. So I know you've been out there. I crewed it one year, that was enough for me. I love the environment out there. It's beautiful.
It's incredible. So, I mean, it's 120 degrees typically in the race, it's 135 miles, you go over three mountains you finish on Whitney. And yeah, this year was magical, because it was my 10th year running Badwater. I had won the race back in 2014 on the alternate course that year due to the park closure. There was all that shenanigans. So it was a dream of mine. I write out goals each year, and that was one of my 12 goals for the year, was to win Badwater. And it was wild because I had written it down. And I mean, it was a bit of a high stretching goal, but to have it come to fruition was, again, it was just incredible because I've been dreaming about that again for years and working at it and just trying to tweak and tweak. The race was very windy this year. And there was a runner from Ukraine who got out ahead. He was a leading throughout most of the race and he was continuing to build a lead. And then going up the second mountain, this was about mile 79 to 83, I was really feeling beat up. Like I was actually- That's the one where it's the middle of the night. Because of the race starting at 10 PM- Have they changed the race starting time? Yeah, like last six years. So that that's actually around noon, like about noon or one o'clock. And I was feeling like a bit beat up. I was trying to hang in there mentally, I was thinking, 'Cause I always think like, you never know what's gonna happen to a person in front. And I was in second place at the time and I'm just like, "I just have to work through this." So my team getting Judd and my other friends, they were trying to keep me hydrated, give me like enough liquids, I wasn't doing the greatest, somehow I got to that aid station at Darwin. I had this fire that hit me. And I just felt like a different person. And I knew that at that aid station, I got the clock time on the runner in front and I knew that he was struggling as well, because despite me slowing down, he had put no timer on me and I'm like, "Okay, I'm a go get you." What was the gap at that point? It was about 25 minutes or so like I'm bound, like I'm gonna just give everything I have. And then, so we started running, we ran a few miles and Elvis' sun, we had this really special experience where the fighter jets literally just buzzed over top of us, like 60 meters above our heads. And that just lit me up even more. And now I'm just like, all right. And then maybe another half a mile from that, literally I saw Igor Ukrainian runner and he was in my sights. And then I just was very consistent not to over overdo it, but to continually like chip away. And I think I caught up to him about mile 114. We had a really good exchange. Actually, it was very like a positive between the two of us. It was actually one of the coolest events, moments I've ever had at Ronnie to have like a positive embrace and where I was like, "Keep at it." And he's like, "You go get it." And that was something really special. Wow, two wins, 10 Badwaters plus the fastest known time from Badwater to the summit, Mount Whitney Summit. That was another wild one, so it was 2020- First of all, Badwater for people that don't know, 135 miles across the desert, most people are familiar with the crazy heat and they know, some sense of what that's like, but they don't really understand that there's like an insane amount of elevation gain and the last... When you get into the portals and you go up to the last 8,000 feet of Mount Whitney, it's like the last, what is it? Half marathon is like straight up hill. Yeah, the last half marathon is definitely a climb. It's like another 5,000 feet up to the portal. But then it's a whole other thing altogether to continue past that point and go all the way to the summit, which is the highest point in north America. So the original concept behind this race, was you go from the lowest point in north America to the highest point in the contiguous US. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So Al Arnold did this back in 1976 and set it up 146 is the original Badwater course, but the park service as things are... They really didn't like the idea of having runners go up Whitney, which makes sense. You've run 135 Miles, and now you're gonna do a summit push and it's treacherous up there. It's treacherous.
And people would die for sure. In the early days we're talking about 20 people in the race. So it wasn't like the bigger number. Now we have a hundred people. So I think that, runners, we don't oftentimes put safety nets in there or like stoppage. So if it was lightening, I could see some people would be like, "Oh hell, I'm still going up there." I'm so invested at this point. Right, so it is good that we have the 135 with the number of runners we have today, but in 2020 we are having the pandemic and the race was canceled. And I had trained for the race and I'd never done the 146 and I was always intrigued about it. And Marshall Orrick had the record going back 29 years earlier. I have lot of respect for Marshall. 91? Same year you did that first marathon? Same year, yeah. He's a phenomenal guy. So I thought, "Okay, I'm just gonna organize my team. "We'll go out there in August and we'll go for it." We raised money for the city gospel mission, which is like a homeless shelter in Cincinnati that also has a running program for individuals that are recovering. Oh, that's cool. It's so cool. And at first I was thinking, "Okay, we'll just go for like a thousand dollars or $2,000." I wasn't like really hyping it up that much. And by the time we got out there, we had like $5,000 were donated. And so that actually kind of fueled my fire, like going into that event at mile 17 to hear feedback from the team that, "Hey, we had already raised 5,000." And it was going up. And it meant a lot to me. I try to keep really a good pace going through the race. When I got into lone pine at mile 122, I felt, there's no way I'm gonna get this record. I was just depleted after going through the desert, I was exhausted. And I was like, "Okay, well, we're gonna like go up "to the 135 and we'll see how it goes. "Maybe I'll just stop at that point." And so I was hiking up the final 13 miles. It would have been to the 135 and I was talking to my fiance on the phone and I was like, "Kelly, I feel like, really, I don't think this is possible. "I really feel like there's like a 1% chance "I could do this. "There's no chance I can do this, I feel depleted." That's an unusual statement coming from you. It's unusual. Like you're saying it out loud. Yeah, I'm saying it out loud, is like 1% chance I can do this. I feel like totally depleted right now. And as I was going up the mountain, with about maybe five miles before the portal, the temperatures were starting to drop a bit and I think I was able to get more liquids into my body and I was starting to feel, "Hm, okay, maybe there's something here." And so when I got to the last two miles up to the portal, I said to one of my friends, I say, "Max, you're gonna have to prepare things, "cause I think I might go for it." So actually I said that to Jeremy. So when we got to the top, I still wasn't feeling like thunder, but I felt like maybe I'm a go for this. I don't know if it's still, I'm not sure if it's possible. At that point when I got to a portal, what was really amazing was Marshall Orrick who had the record from 29 years earlier, called me on the phone and he's like, "Harvey, you know what? "You can do this." And I was thinking, I can't, because I'm an hour behind where I wanna be in order to make this ascend. And I know Marshall's an amazing climber, he's climbed all the seven summits. But he gave me like a little 45 seconds, 60 seconds pep talk, which is amazing. Someone has had that record for 29 years to be so gracious to do. It's super cool. So cool. How did you even have service up there? How could you even get a phone call? We get service at the portal I don't know, my team, they put that together. Like they had gotten in touch with him and then my friend Michael Jimenez, and Davie McCoy and his friend, they accompanied me up to the summit as like a crew. And like once I got on the trail, like I had my hiking poles, Marshall, and I had talked extensively about what was permitted, what was not permitted time, to leave everything. And I felt like a new energy. Like, again, it was wild. Like I've felt different than I felt down below, like I felt like, okay, I felt I'm just gonna go with everything I got, I don't know if we have a shot, but I was moving. I was moving really fast. And Michael said, "Wow, it was hard to keep up with you." And so once I got to the switch, once you get at the top of the switchbacks, you'd come up over the ridge line and there's like a 1.8 miles left or something like that. Now I thought, "Okay, it's in our site, "as long as I don't make any catastrophic mistakes." And then to get there at like 3:30 in the morning, that was like just incredibly powerful, because on the Appalachian trail, we ended up coming up short. We got like the eighth fastest time, which was still amazing because we got that. It had an amazing experience, I could never take back, but again, to get up there, to be a part of Marshall's record from 29 years ago and then to involve my team and then to do it for the city gospel mission, that was- Yeah, you got it. You clipped it by like 20 minutes or something like that. But here's the thing you get up to the summit, you did it, you still gotta get down. Yeah, right. You can't just get in a van and drive off. That's the challenge. The summit is a huge mountain. My mind was really thinking about that, because the temperature, even in the summertime, is really cold up there. And especially after you're like... If you can think about if you've ran a marathon before you've done some event where at the end of that race, you get really chilled fast, like after- That's where they handout those like tinfoil (indistinct). Exactly, so like 10 minutes later, you get super chill. So I went into the shelter, I think for like five minutes, literally. And then I was just all about focus, but it took me a long time to get down. Like actually I wasn't trying to speed down. I was just taking my time, but it was slow. I was doing- 146 miles in the legs, I think it's okay. It's kind of amazing you're even... The quads could even handle going down a mountain. But the food after you have experience like that, is the best food of your life. That's one of the things about these Ultras, is having that period where you're challenged or some might call it suffering. I would never call it suffering. I like to look at differently in that, but you're like in fatigue. And then once you have the opportunity to like, relax, it's like the best relaxation ever, get into the hot tub or down at the bottom of a Whitney is a really nice cold river like a cold creek. And I like to just get in that creek, it feels like something magical. It's like rejuvenating. You earned it, buddy. (chuckles) People are gonna kill me, if I don't ask you, what you eat on the daily? Like what's a day in the life of food for you. How does that work? During the weekdays, I'm in Cincinnati. And then on the weekends, I spend them with Kelly in Circleville. So Circleville is a country town. So Kelly makes some amazing foods. On the weekdays, I eat a lot of stuff that I just throw together. Like breakfast might be like power owes and almond milk and chia seeds and blueberries or oatmeal. And then lunches, maybe some sort of burrito or it might be something that... I don't eat a lot of salads, but I might eat a salad a couple of days a week. Do you make that, and then put it in the backpack? Yeah, I do. I like to put that tuff in my backpack, sometimes my backpack is full. So you're not eating in the school's cafeteria, lunch. Not too frequently. Unfortunately like once in a blue moon, they might have something I can eat, but they don't have a lot of offerings. Like our school program, we still have to work on it. But I like ethnic foods. So like Thai food, Indian, Mexican food, all those sayings, in Circleville is more challenging. Like that's a rural community. So we have in circle builders, literally only Chipotle and like a Mexican restaurant we eat at. And then otherwise I'd have to buy stuff at our grocery store and throw it together. But do you like the cooking part or are you just on the move? I'm on the move. So I'm so bad. I wouldn't mind cooking, but I rarely cook. Like I literally just go and buy things fast in Cincinnati, out to eat, or my mom, I take her out to eat a couple of nights a week in Cincinnati. So we go out to eat but I don't make food that often. Kelly's really gotten into it and I just get to be the free rider on that. It would be a great idea as I'm definitely like... I'm interested in idea but I don't dedicate the time to it, I'm just always on the move. No, I get it, man, I get it. The last thing I wanna explore with you, we've been going for two hours now, is I imagine somebody who's listening to this and they're like, "Man, I can't believe this guy does all this stuff. "How does he do it? "I'm inspired. "It's time I got to get off the couch "and rectify this couch potato situation I'm in." How do you catalyze that spark, get people off the couch, get them active, how does somebody begin that journey? I think the most important thing, is to find something that you love or you have fun with. And I know it doesn't become a love immediately. I've heard people like they start running and it takes three months before they actually start to like it a little bit. I get it. They have that period where is, "I don't like this." Getting in running shape is the worst. Yeah, find something you enjoy, it might be hiking, it might be like swimming or whatever it is. But finding something you have fun with, also having accountability partners. So with Cincinnati is a really nice city, because we have actually like eight different running groups. You can join, they're just... That's not even counting the private running groups everyone is part of. And joining a program, it can be really helpful to have that motivation, like, okay, every Wednesday or every Saturday, we're gonna meet up and run. I think having some sort of accountability partner is huge. Having goals, like having a goal out there. I like to make my list of like 10 to 12 goals. Like I do it over the winter break. Like I do that before January 1st comes. It might sound kind of like... But literally that's powerful to me, because it sets out, where I wanna go for the year. And I like to dream big and go for big things. But having like goals out there, something that you can like sign up for three months out, that's huge. Keeping things interesting. So I have routines, I do certain routines, like my run to work is pretty routine, but I also like to mix it up. So on a Saturday or Sunday, I wanna go explore something new. So like in Ohio, I've had this goal of going to all 88 counties and it's probably take me another 20 years to get there. It's like a Ricky gates thing. And I go out to state parks. I try to see a new trail, but I also like to do that with countries. So I've now met 101 countries and I' like to go see a new country and incorporate some adventure with that, 'cause it kind of sparks running as well with what I do. But having a little thing that you do, maybe once every couple of weeks where you get off your normal routine, it can be powerful. It doesn't have to go to another country or even another county, but just trying something a little bit different with what you're doing, It brings a nuance to it that makes it, so that you'll have more longevity with it. One of the daily habits that you've adopted that I think is super interesting, is this personal journaling that is beyond journaling. Like you write down everything that you do. Is that true? Well, not everything, but I should have bring my calendar in here. I got this old school calendar It's like every day I count everything that do. Yeah, it's kind of funny, most as occasionally they'll see my calendar on my desk. So what are you doing at that? Don't you write down on your phone? No, I'm like old school. I've got all my runs in there, all my plots, whatever is happening. Yeah, I do like to write, I don't write everything down, but I do like to write some things down. I think there's something powerful about writing down, like your program, whatever that is or whatever your goals are for the week. There is some power to that. When you write something down... Like before Big's, I also had some things on my mirror. My fiance comes to the city house, I'm gonna have to clean things up. But in my bathroom, my mirror, I have like three quotes all written down right now. What are those quotes? One of them is actually... One of them I have to paraphrase, but it's actually from Laz, something about being inspired when people push to the most extreme amounts and go beyond it. like it was like going into Big's backyard, Laz is quite a remarkable character and he's kind of influenced a lot of us out there. And to just see his joy of his inspiration of us making 300 and having three runners do something that he didn't think might be possible on his course, was something that lit me up. That was super powerful. And I'm gonna keep that quote up there now, since I'm doing Barkley and the chances of me finishing or Courtney or Laz, are one in a million, in fact- I love how so much of this is like, I gotta win over Laz, It's like I'll kill myself in order to get that guy's approval. Right, he's actually sound like the sacrificial lamb, which is like the runner least likely to be expected to finish the race. And other quotes? Yeah, let's see. Actually there's one from David Goggins. Dave and I we've done some races together and I admire him. It's uncommon amongst uncommon. Yeah, I don't know exactly how- It's something I'm paraphrasing, I'm messing it up, but it is something, you pushing yourself, to a place where you never imagined yourself to possibly go to. His other big quote is all about this idea, that when you think you're done, you've only tapped into 40% of what you're capable of. I mean, how do you think about that? That valence between the mental and the physical with what you do? I mean, it tips so mental, when you're talking about Big's, it's like it's all in the head. Yeah, it's so much in the head. Like, is it with your training, which will catapult you to that level? That depends on your mind as well. So I mean, it's so much... Is the mindset to get out there when it's cold and rainy and 11:00 PM. like what what's driving you. So then it gets us back to the question of why, and that's the other major thing. And like, to be honest with you, whenever I'm doing an A race that I really care about, I actually write down my why statement and I write down a bunch of stuff under why. It's not just words, what was the why. I had about 15 things. But some are sort of personal. Some definitely would be like for other people, like for my students or my parents. I would like to impact other people in their lifestyle in their health and like what they're doing. So like that motivates me a lot to do my very best to hopefully, impact someone else. Sure, and just being clear about that why, makes it the thing that you can pivot to when you're hitting the wall and you think it can't go on you, you return or remind yourself like, "Oh, these are the why's that gets you "into that extra gear." It's so important. I mean, it's so powerful. There's so many times where in your mind in your conscious, you struggle with a thought about giving in, but you can't give in. So you have to like have a why that's so strong that you would not give in. So what's your why for Barkley? Did they stay the same or it changes? No, they all change. So I usually don't write it out until the two weeks before, like I really write it out then. So I have to really think about it. But I do have some ideas for my spirit animal 'cause that also rotates. You can't go back to the Honey badger. You gotta mix it up? Yeah, honey badger it's good in Big's. But I'm thinking in Barkley, it might be the wild boar. Is there wild boar out there? Y'all just be like- Resourceful or survive anything. Somehow those animals managed to make it up. All those steep mountains. even though that seems impossible. Kind of truffles here and there? Yeah, fun truffle. (both laughing) Well, best of luck to you, man. It's really inspiring, not just what you do and what you've accomplished, but like how you comport yourself. I really enjoyed talking to you and I find your example to be incredibly inspiring. And the fact that you're out there just having the year of your life at age 45 with like no end in sight in terms of your potential and your capabilities and you're doing it. Plant-based, I mean, you're setting a new example for what's possible in athletics. Like you're an adventurer, like you're way out on the fringe man. Like seeing what all the rest of us are capable of. And I think it's really cool. And if there's anything I can do to be of service to you, like I'm at your disposal, my friend. Wow, thank you. Thank you so much. It's really been fun chatting with you and honored to be here. Cool. So if people wanna learn more about you, is Instagram the best place to send them or word in addition to the documentary? Yeah, Instagram, Harvey Lewis, Ultra runner or Facebook. That's your deal, man. You got a website, you don't have a website? I don't have a website, no. I have run quest travel. So I didn't mention it, but I do take people on running holidays. In June, it's in Portugal. Oh, in Portugal. Wow, in June. So here I come along. There's some amazing swimming places as well, and mountains to hike off and run all kinds of things. I'm already thinking about that. I'll just be coming back from... We're doing one in Italy, in May. So I don't know if I could back to back it. maybe it'll stay there and go from Italy to Portugal- See that'd be the way to go. I got to talk to you about that- Are you guys going to Italy? We do this event in Tuscany every year. I mean, COVID obviously we didn't do it, but we have this amazing location there. This is like working (indistinct) where we've been taking groups for many years and it's sort of a seven day kind of food, meditation, trail running, extravaganza experience. Wow, that sounds like a dream. So got a spot for you if wanna do that first and get a lead on your Portugal trip. My principal might not be too happy about- That's right, when school get up. You get those summers off, Yeah, that's a big thing. Well, good luck at Barkley. When you conquer that thing, you got an open seat to come back here and tell me how you did it. Oh, that's another why? There you go, I just added to the wireless. You just added to the wireless. Cool man. Appreciate you, thanks man. I appreciate it. Peace, plants. (serene music)
