WI v. Jeffrey Dahmer (1992): Dr. Frederick Fosdal Pt. 2

yes I did on October 23rd 1991 again the Milwaukee County Safety Building was a three-hour interview I didn't did you do it again you you and he spoke together are you alone during these interviews with him yes I am and you're in a somewhat private in the private room basically that's true please proceed [Music] he brought me up today he told me how to visit from his mother and said she was still supportive of him even in spite of his legal difficulties and he mentioned that he never stopped drinking alcohol and he drank primarily during the weekends and while living and walking and again confirmed that DePaul was his only alcoholic treatment program okay he then told me that his first sexual experience was when he was 14 years old and it was with a 13 year old boy from across the street and they had a tree fort and undressed and played with each other and kissed each other this happened a couple times and this individual had been his friend for a few years and they would approach each other and was by Mutual consent uh Mr Don I asked and Mr Dahmer said he did not initiated or he did not was not the aggressor so to speak and that this Behavior occurred around seventh or eighth grade uh heterosexually he said he never tried to initiate a relationship and that he has not had heterosexual interest or desire he did not date or call girls over the years he said quote I knew where I stood I knew I was gay unquote you said feeling this way and real realizing this was not that upsetting or traumatic to him years ago um he became aware of his interest quote interest in the physique of better looking guys unquote and he said his involvement with the 13 year old boy was an isolated incident unquote so the point there is that when he I think I think just a little condition of the jury side that there's another 13 year old lay ocean boy would you read that full sentence about a 13 year old boy from across the street was an isolated incident he's speaking of the involvement with this neighborhood boy pardon the neighborhood Boy Neighborhood boy when he was a young man right right but the important thing here is that as if he when he realizes his gayness that this is not uh he implied it wasn't that devastating or traumatic for him as it sometimes is in junior high school he said he had a quote fascination with Road kills unquote these are dogs killed on the road he denied purposefully killing any animals and cutting them up but he said he picked up the animals off the road and he wanted to see what was inside of them this is certainly a forerunner of things to come he was quote curious unquote he said he was going to deflash and clean the skeleton of a particular large dog but he never finished this project I he said this Behavior with the roadkills was not sexually motivated and he did not derive sexual pleasure or stimulation from this and said this Behavior with the dead animals lasted for a couple years and that he was involved with about 10 animals altogether mostly dogs and a few raccoons and this lat this Behavior lasted until he was about 17 years old or until he was in his junior year of high school and then he lost interest in this they're then a discussion about the death of Stephen Hicks yes yes uh he said he was living alone at home for a couple weeks and after his mother moved to Chippewa Falls father was living five miles away in a motel he had been drinking Mr Dahmer not father and picked up a hitchhiker and he gave the name of the road and in bath he said a young man with a bareback and short pants and this occurred in June or July and he returned home and they had some beer he did not mention marijuana which is mentioned in the confession that marijuana was also involved but he said he was attracted to this boy and then Hicks wanted to return to his destination and he realized Hicks was not gay but he wanted Hicks to stay a fundamental feature in this case is the victims want to leave Mr Dahmer wants them to stay while Hicks was sitting down sodomer hit Mr Hicks by surprise from behind on the head with a barbell it knocked him out he said they had been together for about 90 minutes before the assault and he again said that he had an interest in Mr hicks's physique and then at this time he also entered the an aside that he denied heating gaze or blacks as a reason why he hit uh Mr Hicks or other people he denied previous approaches or attempts to make homosexual contact meaning prior to this he just had not had a contact he had not had a homosexual Outlet had not had a homosexual relationship so this is relevant to the development of his later Behavior he said his picking up Hicks was his first approach he said he wanted quote I've been following what you're saying when it is something that you're interpreting would you just be kind enough to say my interpretation of that is such and such because I I just don't want anybody get confused that that's what he is saying that this is relevant to his behavior later that's not in your report that's so would you do that for us please that's my editorializing as we proceed no problem you're doing it just let us know when you do it uh he said he wanted quote how do I get this guy to stay unquote he did not ask him to stay and did not offer him any money he had the idea and I asked him this he had the idea to hit him over the head for about a half hour he was able to this is my comment he was able to have that idea consciously for that long a time he said they were drinking beer and gave the brand name and he was intoxicated he then straggled him with a barbell and he said quote I was pretty panicked quote I didn't want to get caught so I went all the way and finished it meaning strangled him I cracked his skull on court he then said he killed him to get rid of a witness and to end Hicks suffering he said he thought Hicks probably would have been disabled because of the head injury and recall this is a not a notice but he implied that the there was clearly a crushing skull injury there was a indentation and he assumed that because of this Mr Hicks would be disabled he then said quote I definitely wanted to make sure no one found out about it what it unquote what had happened and again my inference from this is that it certainly reflects that or suggests that he had some appreciation of the uh the wrongfulness of what he was doing he said he'd been drinking throughout that day and really felt quote panicked unquote after he killed Hicks he said the alcohol quote clouded my thinking unquote and again my inference is that this again suggests that alcohol played a part in the behavior he said he sat on the bed and wondered quote what should I do now unquote a couple hours later he took the body to the crawl space and waited for Darkness he said he did not sleep that night and felt quote too horrified unquote he did not attempt anything sexual prior to the assault or afterwards but the next day he did masturbate in front of the body and touched the body in the chest and the penis area but he did not did not have oral sex but he did admit that he was aroused by the body and then I asked him and he said he had heard of necrophilia before and he said it's interest prior to the Hicks murder was to be with someone who was alive he denied having any prior thoughts or fantasies about necrophilium or being involved sexually with someone after their death he said he was quote very worried unquote about his legal situation he knew knew that no one was coming back to the house but he said quote but I had to dispose of the evidence unquote and my inference of that is again is talking about his appreciation of the of the legal situation and the trouble he was in the next that is is there ongoing going over these materials you're you're complete this brings to mind the wrongfulness prong of the insanity issue and that's something you're taking note of in your own mind as you're proceeding that he appreciates this is wrong and that's why he's going to hide the body and so on that's true well the next day the second day he bought a honey knife and then masturbated again cut open the body to view his insides and then he talked about dismembering he said he did this quote to make him light enough to carry unquote and he again confirmed that this was not sexually motivated Behavior The Cutting part but disposal Behavior during the second night he took trash bags with the parts to a large Ravine which was outside of town did this around three in the morning and on his way to the Ravine he was stopped by the police for driving left to Center the policeman called for a backup Mr Dahmer passed the sobriety test the policeman asked him what was in the back seat and he told the policeman that it was trash for the landfill and when asked why he was out so late he said he was upset with his parents divorce and he decided to go for a quote late Drive unquote the policeman shined a light in the back seat in this made him quote really nervous I won't interrupt each time but again this Bears on your considerations of his appreciation of the wrongfulness of his conduct is that correct yes has he yes it does he was not arrested and returned home and he then made the comment that one of the officers he dealt with that during those early morning hours years ago still on the forest and was one of the officers that came to Milwaukee to interview him interview him in regard to the present charges then Mr Dahmer said quote I wish I had been caught it would have put a stop to it unquote the next morning he put the bags with the body parts in a 10 foot drainage pipe in his backyard and smashed the opening of the pipe closed a few years later after his discharge from the Army and while living back home for about six months with his father and stepmother he opened up the pipe when his parents were gone he found the bones and broke them up with a rock and Scattered the pieces he said quote small pieces so they would not be identified unquote time of the homicide he said he threw the knife and Mr hicks's necklace over a bridge about this was about two weeks later after the assault and then he later burned Mr hicks's clothes in an outside trash burner again this activity disposing of evidence destroying evidence is all indicative of his appreciation of the wrongfulness of his conduct is that correct that's true now with all due respect I don't have any problems about the inquiry but capsule is leading if the doctor wants to say that the question is a leading question no question about it Mr Boise he then told me that in over half the homicides the police would never have known these are the Milwaukee cases and he would not be charged but he said he wants a quote nothing concealed unquote and that is it is why he's been so cooperative he blamed the Hicks homicide as a big factor and quote in his starting to abuse alcohol and that alcohol helped him not to think about it and that there was nothing in the news or on TV about Hicks and he was never questioned by the police he said he was quote curious unquote when he was back living at home after the Army and he decided to quote completely dispose of the evidence unquote and that was involved meaning break finding the bones again and breaking him up again he said Hick's death was always quote in the back of my mind I drank the memories away unquote he did not know his family he said it was a quote a [ __ ] that I wanted to forget unquote they did not have a fight prior to the assault he and Hicks he said he didn't want he wanted to knock Hicks out because he would then have quote control over him unquote I want to ask about the other homicides he said he wanted them incapacitated quote the ability to exercise complete control over someone unquote he said he was attracted to their looks and quote they're with me and I can keep them unquote he denied again getting back to this abandonment issue if this isn't one of Mr Dahmer's things he denied any previous clinging type Behavior meaning clinging other people and being very intolerant uh being left alone or being abandoned this was a an earlier concern and he denied this he said again said his mother's leaving was not that upsetting to him and that her leaving was discussed and that he stayed there because he's going to start college he said to her leaving provided him a quote window of opportunity to bring someone home unquote for homosexual contact again implying that when she was there of course he was restricted in this type of behavior that he then commented on the publicity and he disagreed with some of it and you're definitely deny being molested during his childhood by his parents or relatives or anyone and he'd definitely denied the formulation that he was in any way a victim of a childhood sexual abuse the doctor at this juncture although he told you that he received and disagreed with some of the Articles he also told you he hadn't read any of them that's right this is Mr McCann's he's I appreciate Mr Boyle once in a while maybe it's a little helpful uh in that it saves some time in cross-examination but if this we can says he doesn't want that to happen I think it's Mr McCann's examination all right I understand it would just take a lot longer just read what he has there I won't do that according to law Mr Boyle doesn't know what was said he wasn't at this meeting he doesn't know Mr Dahmer said anything I'm not asking for any argument Mr McCann it's your examination and if you don't let Mr Boyle interrupting other than to make an objection that's your prerogative yes he had not read anything about his case he then said quote I was attracted to him referring to Mr Hicks he not that I wanted to keep him that was the first time on code while he was in Germany he said he bought male pornographic magazines and routinely masturbated on a daily basis he said he started masturbation masturbating while in junior high school and he called it a court Obsession to relieve tension unquote for stimulation or arousal he would use homosexual videos and pictures he said after the homicide he said he was deterred from any further contacts and that he also said he was quote too busy with college and the Army and Miami unquote when asked about his sexual feelings during that time he said his practice was to quote always unquote have male magazines available for masturbation purposes in the army he said he had no opportunity unquote and was not approached for homosexual purposes in Miami he said he was quote too busy working I never had anyone to take back to a hotel and quote he said he continued to drink excessively during those years to help suppress his memories and he said he became quote hooked on quote on beer and mixed drinks by that time again referring to further reflecting on his chronic alcoholism after Hicks I asked him and he said he did not re-experience again the feeling of separation or somebody wanting to leave him again like he experienced with Mr Hicks he also never told anybody about what happened to Hicks when I asked about the killing the animals during his childhood he he said his animal behavior only occurred with animals killed on the road he did not say parts of the animals except for the one time he was going to mount the skeleton of a large dog but he did not finish that project in Miami he did not have a car and worked long hours and had a little money and he did not have any homosexual contacts and did not go to gay bars and he worked in the tour section of town and he implied to me that he was a quote naive unquote gay individual at that time and was just not sure the let's say the ropes there was and his not engaging in any uh violent activity while he was in the Army and he sexually assaulted activity yeah Well you certainly um whatever his desires or motivations or fantasies were they were certainly at least under control at that time and the fact that none of such activities occurred in Miami from what did you infer from that pretty much the same thing that the is being busy and being occupied does help his control he then returned to his father and stepmother in bath and was there for about six months and he continued to abuse alcohol now this led to arguments and father it was father's idea that he should return to grandmothers in West Allis even though he didn't he Mr Dahmer did not want to he had visited grandmother a few times during his childhood he arrived in West auster on December of 1981. and he looked for work I helped grandmother around the yard and said his grandmother was quote heavily on quoted new church activities Mr Dahmer tried to straighten his life out and he went to church and did not drink alcohol for a couple years he stopped masturbating and using men's magazines and went to a church he did admit that his grandmother was upset with his drinking and he did not drink for a couple years he lived a grandmother for eight or nine years but he continued to have homosexual desires quote but I did my best to suppress them unquote the inference you draw from this period with respect to capacity to control again his desires and interests were pretty much under control during that time during that time he was at a local library and another male dropped him a note at his table inviting him to come down to a lower level bathroom and he said the notes said a quote and I'll give you a [ __ ] unquote Mr Dahmer did not follow through with this invitation because he wanted to uh as he said to not tumble on quote and stay on the Street Path he was trying to stay on but he said that after this uh episode his desires sexual desires increased and his willpower lessened and he started quote slowly on quote drinking again on weekends and he said the drinking enhanced his homosexual desires then started going to bookstores and looking at magazines and again started masturbating he'd not know where the gay bars were but he found out in the pornographic bookstores and then around 1985 or 1986 he started going to gay bars and he said this quote fueled my desire unquote he found out what a bath Club was and by this time he had stopped going to church he mentioned the name of a local bath Club and how much it costs to stay there and what they did there like looking at mail videos and in the lounge and he and the other men there would sit around and they were wearing towels he told me this was not a legal Behavior but that anal intercourse at these places was about all that was illegal annual membership for twenty five dollars he went there on weekends even while he was living with his grandmother he said that she did not know where he was and his parents did not know he was gay he had quote one-night stands on quote at the bath house and it was my interpretation that this was his attorney's First Mutual consensual homosexual experiences at these bath houses a consenting meal yes ah he went to Bath out to the bathhouse for a couple years and after it closed he would pick up man and go to a couple Milwaukee hotels and gave the names this would be on Saturday nights and after leaving a bar he said the bathhouse closed because of a possible tuberculosis problem and he did not tell me that he was apparently has to leave because of the drugging he was aware of the AIDS issue and occasionally would have intercourse anal intercourse but would then use a condom he said he did not like anal intercourse being done to him but just he just wanted a cool lay around hug and kiss on court he called Soft sex he then estimated that he had been with 200 different men ages 18 of the late 60s this was a in the first interview he had mentioned the figure 100 is that correct something like that yes so this was a modification upward yes you said Cole you don't develop a lasting friendship there Uncle referring to the bathhouses at the path house I he was usually with someone new every time most of the males there did not interest him only a few of them were quote nice looking on Court and those were the only ones he would bother trying to pick up when I asked he said he was approached himself by a less desirable men he would then just make small talk with them and then turn them down the ones that he was attracted to usually did not approach him but he would approach the ones he liked and sometimes they would agree and sometimes they would not sometimes he would have to settle for a less desirable man and especially after he had been drinking on about 50 percent of the times the attractive men would go with him and he implied that he was not routinely rejected or disappointed and he was not devastated by the rejections when turned down he said quote that's to be expected unquote he said that the men have quote very shallow relationships unquote amongst each other what I was driving at here was um pretty much how did he feel about himself his attractiveness his bargaining power with other men who is he uh completely unwanted gay person and he's not even having any success in that realm but he implied that he was someone in the middle of the pack so to speak again when I asked he said he never had a sustained lover or a steady relationship with a another gay person and implied that it was not his goal to have such a relationship or steady boyfriend but he wanted to play the field which was his words he was not devastated that he did not have a steady lover and but he thought it might have been quote nice unquote to have such a relationship he then said that most of the men tend to play the field and not have a steady lover but he later corrected me on this on a later interview well living at grandmothers he was not able to bring people home because she was there he would be gone on Saturday nights and gave mother a work excuse as to why he was gone would pick someone up and go to one of the hotels he would only have a sexual contact like this on Saturday and not during a week this is what what do you draw from that well again he's he's timing when he engages in his sexual behavior he has a desire of course throughout the week he has his interests he's has a motivation but he is picking and choosing or Channel channeling uh when he's going to follow through with his desires I would say at this point in the history we start a new phase in his this whole scenario and this is the phase of drugging he told me that while at the bath Club he started using a sleeping pill and that this was pretty much prompted in part by if his partner wanted to have heavy anal sex unquote he did not want to so he would slip his partner the sleeping pill in their liquor in order to avoid having anal intercourse problem there is that this one out of my nose but if the person wanted to have anal intercourse with Mr Diamond and he didn't want to then of course the the mail that he had was with him would leave and that of course he did not did not want that person to leave but he also didn't want to have the United intercourse he wanted to do his thing with his partner so in order to solve that bind he said he got into the drugging routine he would then enjoy them physically while they were passed out quote the warmth of their company and have oral sex unquote he said if he did not cooperate in you know intercourse with his partner then the partner would usually leave after one or two hours and therefore he had to incapacitate them to keep them there he said the sleeping pill was a way to keep them there all night unquote while his partner was passed out he would lay on top of him caress him and kiss him said they were attractive even though they were passed out he would use this excuse me what was then the from your discussion with him what was the intended purpose then of to protect himself from maintenance of course and then do what himself prolong the availability of his homosexual contact so again this is again I'm interpreting this is substitute Behavior he's now substituted substituting a vehicle vich Ellie a program a substitute pattern of behavior in order to satisfy his sexual needs it's not being done with a fully Cooperative boyfriend the only way he can inhabit his way is through the drugging program and then the person is completely passive and Cooperative while of course unconscious he would offer them drinks in his room and he said they did not serve alcohol downstairs in the bath house they just had a juice bar um he then told me about the sleeping pills and where he got them and how long he had them and that he would use a bogus complaint of having trouble sleeping with his doctor then I asked him and he said that he has told me cold indicate then that he would have the what did he say about how frequently he would have the prescriptions refilled well the term called many times unquote over a two-year period of time he mentioned a particular doctor that doctor has testified Dr Olson that he visited him for those book Griffins that's true and then I asked him if he had shared all this information with the other examiners or people in the valley he said that what he about all that he told me that was new was related to this discrepancy between the scattering the bones of hicks two weeks after the homicide when it was really a few years later doctor I didn't hear the first part of your answer that's the paragraph there on page 18. no I didn't just say a lot oh I'm sorry what you said that um I asked him does is this is anything I'm hearing new and he implied that he's told everything that he's told me to other people but that he implied that I was the first to hear about the change in when he scattered the Hicks bones he apparently mentioned two weeks after the homicide or before and he said it was Rudy a few years later he said the sleeping pill was very quote very fast acting and of course when I asked he said he usually was not Accused by partner of being drugged and but he said this did happen once or twice in Chicago and then he said he went to Chicago quote many times unquote after the Milwaukee place was closed and he went to two bath houses in Chicago and he gave the names of those two clubs and their addresses he said the Chicago Clubs were three times bigger than the Milwaukee Club and he used the sleeping potion on a regular basis quote almost every time it made things easier then I wouldn't have to worry about doing things that I didn't want to do unquote which reflects on his motive for using the sleeping pill and again to not want to have to do homosexual behavior that he didn't like doing once or twice the partner would be upset when he realized he had been drugged one of these individuals in Chicago I hit him and when I asked he said he was the only one that he knew of that was drugging Partners so he was unique in this regard discussion about the Stephen dwell me death in November of 87. yes we do he said this was the first one in Milwaukee and he picked up an individual at one of the local taverns gave the name a white male they went to this hotel we have mentioned the names of the taverns and the hotel and I think it'd be of assistance to the jury to mention that okay I'm just trying to not involve minimize the publicity the 219 club and they went went to the Ambassador Hotel so they were planning on a quote planning on a normal night unquote he gave this individual the sleeping mixture and the partner passed out sir Dahmer woke up lying on top of the partner in the park he said the partner had a broken rib and Mr and Armory have bruised forms and he assumed that he had beaten this partner to death he said they had been drinking 151 proof rum quote drinking very heavy unquote he said he had no intentions of hurting this individual and that quote it shocked the hell out of me on court he was heavily bruised throughout the chest area meeting the victim and their blood was coming out of the victim's mouth and that he was dead and he asked me that this was around 1987. you denied any recollection of beating him and assumed he quote blacked out unquote and that quote I had no intention of doing anything violent to him unquote he did not know what happened and could not find the bottle of rum my interjection here is if he truly has no memory of that the leading explanation would be an alcoholic alcoholic Amnesia or alcoholic black cop he did not uh he said he woke up that Sunday morning and did not know why it happened he did not know what to do next quote the whole thing started all over again remember referring to the first time since Hicks unquote hit the body in a closet at the hotel he then went to a mall and bought a large suitcase with wheels on it and he paid 35 dollars he stayed at the hotel until 1am well he stayed in the hotel another day and he stayed until 1am and then went down in the elevator in my interpretation there he was clearly waiting for the hotel to acquired one is a safe time to carry out this behavior of removing the body from the hotel and the taxi driver helped him put the body into the trunk and they went to Grandmother's house and I asked him why he didn't call the police report what happened he said it never crossed his mind and he said in court I assume they would accuse me on court what if anything you do you draw or infer from the efforts to conceal what transpired in the hotel this is all behavior that I infer that you know he had the presence of mind to appreciate the illegality of what he was doing the trouble he was in yeah the legal aspects of his behavior was clearly on his mind and he's he's behaving in according with uh trying to detection and evidence issue and grandmother's house put the suitcase in a fruit seller in the basement and it was Thanksgiving time father stepmother and an aunt and an uncle were there for Thanksgiving I remember asking he said it was cold outside and the body was cold preserved unquote because of the cold weather the following Monday when grandmother had left for church he deflashed unquote which was his word the body near a drain in the basement and he put the parts in three trash bags he said he always quote triple bagged so the weight would not rip through you don't want spilling he said fist sized pieces of Flesh about 30 pounds per bag unquote when asked why he didn't just cut the limbs off and put them in a trash bag he said that the quarter limbs might have been discovered unquote meaning from what I would call you know bones can poke through a bag or something like that ones in a blanket and crush them and put them in bags it's you set out about five trash bags for pickup on Monday morning and cleaned up the basement and in the police reports they describe some of the uh ways he cleaned up and pouring things down the drain to cut down on the smell on things a week later he threw the suitcase in the trash the next Monday morning pickup back at the hotel in regard to this case he said he remembered kissing and engaging in mutual masturbation and the victim passing out Mr Toomey and then he passed out he did not remember any better for it to get to the jury what inferences you drew from the disposal activity the packing it in the bag the Smashing of the bones what inferences you drew on that with respect to the capacity to appreciate wrongfulness these are steps that he's engaging in behaviors he's going through that you can a reason why inference in my opinion is that he clearly was appreciated and had the presence of mine he was tuned into the illegality uh of a situation the last thing in the world he wanted to do was to have this stuff discovered that whole back into that into repeated measurement part okay [Music] and these are these are steps that he's in here that he's going through is a reasonable inference in my opinion he clearly the presence of mind in a new illegality of the situation the last thing in the world he would want to do was have the stuff discovered the last the last thing in the world is what yeah thanks sorry would you return to the hotel then then well I did not remember any bitterness or reasons to fight with Mr Toomey and then when he woke up he was quote horrified unquote with what he discovered he said the cutting up and cleaning up a grandmother's was not for sexual purposes but we strictly quote work unquote and for disposal purposes when I asked he said that during later homicides he might have gotten some sexual harassment by the dismembering then he also said he started taking pictures and he said he was never a question about the hotel death and the death was never apparently reported he was working or employed during that period of time he then said that nothing further happened for a couple months and until January which was January of 88. yes and he started returning to bars he said an individual was waiting for a bus in front of the 219 Club it was on a Saturday evening in this individual quote he caught my eye unquote he offered him fifty dollars to watch videos and they took a bus to 57th and National and then walked to Grandmother's house this was the first time he ever brought anybody alive to Grandmother's house City and Hotel incident made him quote Boulder I was drunk enough took my chances unquote just until the jury is cleared you're speaking now of the James dock stator incident is that correct after the hotel death after the Mr Toomey he said he implied that because of what happened he he now felt quote Boulder and also said he was drunk enough and he was going to take his chances and quote and now we start a new era of people coming to grandmothers were before oh grandmother's was somewhat of a deterrent or the unrest in the living room this is um we're talking about Mr doc state or no I believe correct yes sir and they laid on each other engaged in homosexual behavior and he said this Mr dockstate or this big individual was quote very attractive unquote Joe said he had to be home the next morning he was given the sleeping mixture and they went to the basement and Mr Doc's theater passed out he did not want this individual to leave said he was quote very aroused he had a very good physique unquote on the floor he had sex with him while the partner was passed out quote it was not enough to satisfy me I wanted to be with him longer unquote when asked why he just didn't use more sleeping potion to keep him passed out longer he said that grandmother would eventually be waking up quote so I decided to I opted for the Strangling method unquote he then proceeded to choke into death and he admitted that he was quote drunk unquote during that time he said they were drinking decaf decaffeinated coffee and Irish Cream and that he was concerned about this particular partner waking up and getting him Mr Dahmer in the trouble said he strangled him in order to quote keep complete control I could still enjoy his physique even though he's dead and they can still be very attractive he had a perfect body unquote with respect to his expressed concern just there about waking up and then he Mr Dahmer getting into trouble what did you what if any inferences did you draw with respect to that and then the responsibility issues well he implied that that when you drug somebody that sometimes people may realize they were drugged and that he could get in trouble for doing this so certainly um he said that in this particular case he was concerned about that and it's in part one of the reasons why he committed the cause of the death when he spoke of enjoying his physique what did what was the discussion there what was he referring to at that point exactly what he liked about the body I do not know may I continue yes sir I then made the comment that really you should have a mannequin and he said that uh yes yes indeed he had early brought earlier brought a home a mannequin from a local store and that he went to an army surplus store and bought a sleeping bag cover or tarp and he waited in the store until after closing and then when no one was in the store he put the mannequin in the tarp and walked out of the store and he also the clothes on the mannequin he also kept this is one of his living grandmothers and he said he used the mannequin for sexual purposes for about a month I have here he masturbated to the mannequin I don't know if two are on but he'd Mass weighted to the mannequin and undressed it he kept it for about a month and then grandmother discovered it in the closet and then he had to throw it out in the trash they're a particular psychiatric name for using a mannequin or statute for such a purpose oh not officially but I would assume you could probably coin one but uh sometimes referred to as pigmentianism I I don't know again the um we had to terminate our interview because of the time on the jail routine and these are again kind of last minute questions and he he said the later homicides could quote stranger unquote and then he told me about eating body parts of two victims quote 10 pounds of muscle in one heart unquote when asked how he prepared them he said he quote fried them in a skillet and that they tasted like beef unquote when asked why he would do this he said he was curious but they were part of me I felt some thrill on court he also said when he began saving body parts for remembrance not a total waste unquote when asked about the illegality of what he was doing he said quote it became a compulsion my main focus for living implying his desire to have homosexual experience in this fashion he implied that the the body parts leader had value to him and that ended our second interview and that had been about three hours or so the second interview two o'clock to five o'clock on October 23 1991. there came a time then that you returned to meet with Mr Dahmer did there not yes I did and that was on the 13th day of November in 1991 here in the safety building from one o'clock to 4 30 in the afternoon in the interval that between this would you be yourself digesting more information that you'd be receiving through from my office or through other sources assessing that reviewing your notes determining what further questions you might wish to put yes material was coming in material was being provided then you return to the safety building here on November 13 1991 to the same room and initiated your third interview of Mr Dahmer is that correct that's true just so while we make it is that Mr Dahmer here in the courtroom and yes he is and were you again in the room with him alone yes I was and it's just you and he and you're talking back and forth that's true would you proceed to communicate to the jury what transpired at the third interview of Mr Dahmer the one of November 13 1991. good okay we have to hold up for a minute so the reporter can change your paper foreign okay we may continue at this point mention that and talk to any detectives for about two months and about his future he made the comment of quote endless years of nothingness unquote I think at this point maybe let's give the rest of that paragraph it relates to issues that right Corporal instructor having a neurological evaluation scheduled in the near future you mentioned that he had psychological testing by Dr smale and Anderson foreign develop some time frames for myself and some organizations volume of data here and when I asked he said he had three residences in Milwaukee the First with his grandmother and he said four homicides took place there and then the second residence was at 24th and Wells for about six months around 80 86 87 and while there he was only involved with quote just pictures no violence there unquote and the third resonance was at 25th Street and they moved there in late 1989 and that's where he was living until his arrest and he said all the other homicides took place there the remaining 12 he denied that any homicide has occurred anywhere else except the original one in Ohio was it your understanding that he was including the tuomi the disposal of the tuomi body is among the four homicides occurring at the grandmother's house yes oh yes although technically it occurred at the uh at The Ambassador Hotel he also said he was not being charged in that case he said the third homicide or the first at his grandmother's house and the citizen this time he thought his name was Doc's tater and he said that just so it's clear that Jerry the first time aside was hitch is that correct the first of grandmother's house you know I'm speaking now with the of the the first because when you say the third at the first of grandmother's house the first was Hicks is that correct in bath Ohio yes second one was the death at The Ambassador Hotel of Mr Tommy true right and then you're speaking of the third homicide which is the third historically but the first of grandmother's house okay please proceed him he thought his name was docked Stater and he said that this individual was quote just there for the evening a Native American unquote he said he was on his way to the 219 bar when he saw Doc's theater standing at the quarter approached him offered him fifty dollars to return to grandmother's and be videotaped he took the bus and walked the rest away to grandmothers they were in the living room and quote me a small talk and quote grandmother was asleep upstairs and the unrest and laid around on the sofa on quote for about an hour they had oral sex a doc Stater had to be back in the morning they went to the basement and then he deox Tater drank the mixture they kissed and laid around for a while and then the doc stator passes out and then Mr Dahmer strangled him with his hands quote it just took a few minutes unquote and he expressed surprise that it didn't take longer when asked why he killed him he said quote that's the only way I could keep him there unquote and if I interject obviously everybody wants to know what is the motive for the killing inserting in part this is very much the formulation Mr Dahmer presented me that very much the the deaths were incurred as a way to keep the people with them kept his body for a week and he wanted and he didn't want the body for a period of time then we discussed the various choices he had before killing him he agreed that his first choice would have been to have Mr docksteader stayed with him for several days or a week alive quote if he would have cooperated comma I would not have had to kill him unquote again interpreting here if well I'll continue he said the second quote second best to an alternative was to have him there dead quote he wasn't going to go anywhere unquote he said he would fondle and lay with the body could only when the house was empty unquote this must been during the subsequent days he kept the body in the basement fruit Cellar and the body was nude he would have anal sex with the body and lay on it and he's again said that he did not like anal sex done to him but did enjoy doing it to others also said he masturbated before deflashing on cold which is his word he's Mr Tommy in the basement and then he mentioned keeping the skulls of Tomy and Doc sator he again said the reason he killed docksader was quote the only way to have complete control and have them stay unquote for sexual purposes he wanted them for sexual purposes an object quote their physical attraction was the deciding factor in who I picked referring to who he picked to pick up or bring home he said at first crossed his mind to use a body in terms of the then the the reason that he didn't want them to leave was that for sexual so he could continue the sexual purposes with the body it's a substitute temporary prolongation of the relationship and that is predominantly a sexual relationship his interest in them was sexual their utilitarian value to him was sexual it wasn't necessarily friendship it was sexual and he said across his mind to use a body for sexual purposes when he was about 14 years old and in junior high school he fantasized having a body to use like a mannequin he agreed that quote the ideal situation unquote sexually would be to have the other individual cooperate with him live with him and travel with him the importance here is trying to assess where is it where is this person sexually and what his what are his preferences and what is his interests and desires online and uh these kind of comments certainly reflect that they're not necessarily pure necrophilic Desires in that I don't have any sexual arousal with only unless they're dead then that's not true he's implying here that his first choice would be a relationship but uh tragically and unfortunately this never he said that this alternative and the court never materialized unquote and so we did the second best thing he said he never went on a long weekend or a trip I asked him with another gay person he said he never had a close homosexual relationship and he never met anyone who do that with them in my last interview I jumping ahead I somewhat chatted him about this or that he didn't try hard enough and that he this might have been possible but he didn't try her enough and he tended to agree he went to the bath house Milwaukee for about two years and no homicides occurred during that time he said he did experiment with the sleeping mixture first at the bath house and at the his bathhouse sexual behavior quote kept me satisfied for a while unquote then after the closure of the bathhouse the homicide started he said the closing ended his ability to find satisfaction for one night and he found this frustrating he was living with his grandmother at the time and therefore he could not bring some people home to her house and he denied having any interest in killing any of his sexual partners at the bath house and just settled for the one-night stands again you know the issue how much of his Drive is necrophilic in nature and how much is not actual progress to call wanting more unquote he then started using the hotels in Milwaukee and did this for a few months again always on weekends and he went to a hotel about 15 times and about half to each Hotel always on weekends never during the week because he was at work he did not have time to go to bars to pick up men during the week because of his job at that point tell the jury what What observations or conclusions or inferences you draw from that that he was restricting these activities and could restrict these activities to weekends that's just he has the interest during the time the interest is with him it doesn't go away the issues when does he act on it do something about it and such factors as a being employed his job outside structure like that followed through with his sexual desires he said he used the sleeping mixture each time at the hotels and the individual would wake up and leave and then he stopped using these hotels after the told me death at the hotel after the told me a case he said he took two or three men back to his grandmother so he did not kill and he later left he said there were four homicides of grandmothers including the Tomi case when asked how he decided which ones he let go here these men are showing up at grandmothers and some don't believe and some do he said quote those that left I met while I was quite drunk I lost my attraction to them as I was sobering up unquote um interpreting here this if in fact and this has been commented on by other people but basically that the attraction issue was so important to him and that his control was very much related to the attraction issue and that he could simply let somebody go if he was not attracted that reflects relates to the Conformity issue [Music] either a dead if you let the person go he would enjoy them sexually before they left but he could forego any activity with a dead body when he decided to let them go is that correct yes he did not feel a need to kill them because they weren't he didn't feel that attracted to him or they weren't the type he wanted to hang on to had a second residence he brought one individual back and they had sex and the individual left and he again said he did not kill this individual because he did not want to keep him that same afternoon he took a picture of Leo Shamil and the police were later called and he was arrested he said he wasn't going to hotels while living at a second residence in any homosexual contacts during that time took place in the court viewing booths on Kodak magazine stores he and the other gay person would kiss and masturbate each other in the booth had his third residence he said 12 homicides took place there he estimated that three individuals came back there with him and he did not kill them and they left then you would draw the same references you drew from the the similar decisions that he made at the grandmother's house to presumably would have sex while alive and then forego the decision to have sex with them after death by by not killing them right what what reasoning or decision what reasoning was he doing that determined which one's left and which one stayed and he said that um in regard to the first individual that left that he himself Mr Dahmer drank the wrong cup with a mixture in it and he himself knocked himself passed out the other individual left and robbed Mr Dahmer about three hundred dollars the other end and two individuals that survived or were not killed were there for the night and left in the morning and when asked why he didn't kill them he said that sometimes this hangover was so bad that he didn't have the quote energy to kill them unquote or keep them or they or that they were not attractive enough to him which again simply my interpretation Factor the normal hangover Factor this type of thing if this was a he could refrain if this variable or this Factor was there obviously said this was one of the reasons he refrained individuals he agreed that in total there were only 15 individuals brought back to his third residence and he only had homosexual contacts that had his residents sort the bath house in Chicago while living at his third residence did he ever tell you whether or not he was excluded from the bath houses in Chicago excluded kicked out no so the best of your knowledge he always up to the day of arrest he always had access to the bath houses in Chicago is that correct that's my understanding he estimated to meet about 10 trips to Chicago and two nights per trip [Music] he went down to Chicago to find someone to bring back to his residence and keep them and I use the word scouting trip people came back with him he found or met the first one at a Chicago bus stop and the second one came from a bar in Chicago and he gave the name of the bar and both these individuals he killed back in Milwaukee he said quote just the distance was greater the Chicago guys had definite time limits meaning the they couldn't stay that long in Milwaukee I liked Chicago better greater variety better nightclubs unquote said that killing them was not the satisfying parties referring to the victims in general quote killing was just a means to an end unquote and the issue here is that is the actual taking of life sexually arousing or stimulating in a sexually sadistic way because there is such a thing as a sadomasochistic behavior and he repeatedly stated that this was not sexually sadistic or that he was getting any Joy or arousal from The Killing It was a step he had to take to achieve his desire down he said quote killing was just a means to an end unquote he then brought up the um the zombie issue which we'll get to later but then he went back to my question more about the motive for the killing he said quote no I didn't get a kick out of that at all that's why I tried to make it as painless as possible while they were asleep I wasn't into torture unquote he also said the homicides were not quote hate motivated crimes and quote good 7 out of the 17 were not black and therefore they were not racially motivated crimes and he was saying this as an attempt to disclaim any of the allegations against him he said Mr Hicks and cash d and the last victim were not gay and he mentioned possibly some others were not gay also he said these individuals came back to his residence for money and he called them quote Hustler type unquote prostitutes unquote heterosexual men who prostituted themselves for money therefore his motivation was not homosexual hate crimes quote I was not targeting any particular race hate was not my motive lust was he said and he again stated that the killing was not and the dismembering was not part of his sexual Act while at a certain residence he didn't go to bookstores for sexual purposes the lust you're speaking of is a is a lust for sex sexual lust desire had assert residence he did not go to bookstores for sexual purposes he just went to Chicago or used his apartment he was no longer using hotels he made the comment about the bath house business and so they call themselves health clubs but they're quote their real business is a homosexual brothel unquote he said he's facilities are open quote 24 hours a day seven days a week unquote he then said quote I wanted he remem remembrance to keep unquote he then boiled and painted the skulls and he had a complete skeleton and when I asked him if he again had any pleasure excitement on killing them he said quote that's a misconception a unquote I then asked him what he thought was wrong with him by consuming lust to experience her bodies the desire never left there were times I couldn't fulfill it because of the time and work reasons the focus of my life was to find fulfillment and satisfaction with good looking guys cannibalism and the saving of body parts were just offshoots it's his words just having them there for a few nights was not enough then I got into the offshoots they couldn't be kept in deathland kind of starting a new phase here where we grow from a few hours of a drug stay to a few days to a few hours to a few days of a deceased body phase an hour into having some mementos after the body has to be disposed of he said the bodies could be left intact for a few days and then he would have to dispose of them he expressed surprise at the last body decomposed so rapidly and that there's some maggots on the face within a couple days he would kill them and use their bodies for a few days before the body decomposed he said that two or three days tops meaning two or three days max that he could have access to their bodies for sexual purposes he would quote lay around body rubbing masturbation and anal sex unquote with the bodies he said he never heard of any gay person drugging his sexual contacts or killing his contacts in order to keep them quote I wasn't trying to imitate anyone all the ideas Came From Within cool and then he mentioned the article is an article that has been published comparing him to another person perhaps you said quote I carried it much too far in comma that's for sure unquote meaning the sexual behavior he said it was common that is context would want to stay but they couldn't and they had to leave and thus he had to kill them to keep them is pretty unfortunate that he said I was caught I was trying to think of a way to not have to kill them unquote and then he was we discussed this quote zombie unquote cases that was his word City would drill a small hole through the top of the skull and into the brain and he did this on about four or five victims he used a baster he described where he got it and he injected deluded myriadic acid into the skull and this was the same acid he used to quote acidify the skeletons half acid and half water he then said the body parts would get quote mushy unquote and he would flush the mixture down the toilet he would scoop it out of the barrel after about two weeks and put on the toilet he said he kept 11 skulls quote some didn't dry out so well so I destroyed them unquote did you just pause a minute had there been discussion of how he was disposing of the flesh or basically the bones when you're talking about the apartment building on North 25th is that correct that discussion comes later this whole interview was trying to get an overall time frames and some degree of categories of categorizations of where things are going on and we weren't into the specific names yet it was the later more detailed discussion about the disposal he said drilling the hole in the skull was quite an experiment it never worked out unquote he said he tried this technique on his last four or five victims he put acid in the hole on four of the victims in boiling water in one of the victims he said the five individuals did not get into a quote zombie on quote state he said he injected them while they were drugged he wanted the individuals to be this is a motive for the drilling he wanted the individuals to be quote open to my suggestion I wanted an indefinite effect unquote purpose was that they would be alive and the bodies would be preserved but their personality would be quote zombied so I won't have to go out looking for partners unquote so this is an attempt to start a new routine her pattern he put acid into the skulls of four individuals on the first one he injected the acid twice and the individual was killed and the individual individual he ejected with boiling water he said quote he was up and about for one day after the injection this is after being questioned I had to work so I gave him a second dose of boiling water and left for work when I return the next morning he had expired unquote he said this individual was the one he picked up at the bar in Chicago Mr Weinberger he would inject while the individual was asleep or passed out and then I asked him I said John and he said he's told this to other doctors and his attorney when I asked he said this individual was quote up and about unquote for one day said this victim seemed quote seemed tired he talked in short sentences I'm confused we didn't have any sexual contact I was more interested in finishing the 12-pack in the fridge unquote can you tell the jury what entrances you drew from that this is Mr Weinberger has survived the the initial Drilling and insertion of the acid and uh there's departs for wild returns and finds him still about up and about or not at least alive but does not turn to exercise sexual activities with him did you draw any inferences or conclusions from that or observations from what I requires he was talking about this the the main thing was this experiment this was a major thing for him he have to appreciate he his goal is to have this completely Cooperative passive individual that will let him do whatever he Mr Dahmer wants to do sexually and that's what he's trying to strive for but the drawback of killing people is that you know that has its drawbacks also the work involved the disposal problem he was in he wanted a different approach and this is a one he was experimenting with so I think during that time the is involvement with the experiment and the procedures I think took priority in an experimental way and that maybe his sexual behavior with him and less priority and perhaps that's why he did not involve themselves sexually when I asked he said he tried to use penis as possible unquote when he killed the victims when asked how he did this he said he strangled them while they were passed out quote all except for the last four or five victims unquote referring to the drilling remember the names of these last victims as being Lindsay a deaf mute individual the Laotian and Weinberger when asked if he stabbed one of the victims he said that he quote for God unquote he said that he stabbed Miller quote because the pill is wearing off and quote any cut Miller's neck he said he kept all four of the skulls from the victims and grandmother's house for a few days and then quote dispose of them Dash I didn't feel safe keeping them they would have been discovered while I was at work unquote so he's living with grandmother's he's got some skulls at home and he's off at work so he's concerned about that he did keep the skull of the last grandmother case and again he's not refers from the individually met at the cage in regard to the other 12 he said he did not keep to the skulls because they quote did not dry out well unquote kept 11 skulls total painted them with spray paint quote fake Granite to give them an artificial appearance so when I displayed them in the bedroom so they won't look real to be on the safe side so with so they would look like artificial skulls if they look real I would get in trouble in case of a break-in to play it safe it also gave them a uniform appearance after the bleaching and my interpretation here is that and I asked him about it you said indeed if his place was broken into like anybody else has broken into that the the robber or the burglar even though the burglar is committing a crime on amsterdamer's apartment he was concerned about the actual robber turning him into the police so here you know let's say one criminal is reporting another criminal so to speak so that's why the artificial paint and this again I infer Clarity reflects that he was aware of the wrongfulness of his behavior when I asked what he was worried about he said that he was concerned about a possible break-in on the burglar reporting him to the police he agreed with me that he was concerned about getting caught he said quote I did everything in my power so that one happened I went to Great pains to not be discovered unquote three minutes to 12. I'm not sure what the Court's agenda is we're going to this is a good Breaking Point sure a little break for lunch and uh how about coming back at one o'clock courts and reasons all right please

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Keywords: jeffrey dahmer trial 1992, wi v jeffrey dahmer, True Crime, court tv, court tv full trials, court tv live, court tv live stream, court tv trials, law and crime, live court cam, live court cases, live court tv, live court tv full trials, true crime daily, jeffrey dahmer, jeffrey dahmer trial, jeffrey dahmer victims, jeffrey dahmer court, jeffrey dahmer serial killer, dahmer victims, trials on demand court tv, jeffrey dahmer trial court, Jeffrey dahmer trial court tv

Id: RgozLSDk9m8

Length: 82min 6sec (4926 seconds)

Published: Tue Sep 27 2022