WI v. Jeffrey Dahmer (1992): Prosecution Closing Argument

thank you please see it please jurors we're now going to hear from Mr McKeon and I think I should alert you ahead of time because we look at the clock and we see it's about quarter after 11. Mr McCann is going to argue until 12 or 12 15 or so and then he's uh going to take a break and what we're going to do is we'll break for lunch at that time so we'll have lunch at a fairly normal time and then after lunch Mr McCann will finish his argument Mr McCann thank you ladies and gentlemen of the jury it's been three weeks it's been like a long time I know for you and it's been for us as well I felt particularly bad last Saturday Dr fosda was on all day it was the sixth day of the week and I know it was difficult for you as it was difficult for Mr Boyle and I and the judge and so forth yet I was intent on your seeing how thorough Dr fosda was if I pushed your patience I'm sorry that I did but I think when you sit down to decide this case you will appreciate that we put on that we were as thorough as we were but I do apologize particularly for that day because I was weary you were weary but you kept at it you kept with it and I deeply appreciate that I am advocate for the people of the state of Wisconsin I've been that way that in that role for a long time I'm very proud and very happy to be doing it I'm officer an officer of this court and I've been very pleased with this trial with your particularly with your continuing attention I'd like to go back to when we first met each other and that's what we call the wadir examination a little bit was out here in court but a great deal of it was in Chambers and I asked each of you a number of questions and I'm going to remind you of some of those questions first we started out by saying the burden of proof in this case is on the defendant that's unusual in the system of justice but what we say in the state of Wisconsin is Jeffrey Dahmer has killed 15 people sits here a killer in this courtroom convicted of being a killer he now asks you not to hold him responsible for those killings this is a responsibility hearing he is saying don't hold me criminally responsible for those killings and the state very properly says you're going to have to prove that then Mr Dahmer and you said you'd go with that you wouldn't even psychologically put that burden and I know there's an instinctive well the D.A didn't prove this or that please if anybody says in your jury Chambers well the D.A didn't prove this stop him say no no no no the district attorney doesn't have to prove anything and that's a switch of Gears that it may be hard to do because psychologically we've all been watching films and so on we expect the district attorney to prove something I think we did prove it we brought on a case as though it were Our obligation we presented the best psychiatrist the most capable people evidence from lay Witnesses from doctors from the facts of the case we proved sanity but we didn't have to prove anything the burden is entirely on the defendant who seeks to escape responsibility for the slayings with which he has already been found to have committed to which he pled guilty pleased during the deliberations you said you would abide by that in the wadir examination when you were first questioned you said you would abide by that please I didn't have to put anything on if after Dr Palermo and Dr Friedman the court experts top stop testifying I could have rested the case and you'd have to wrestle with it with that evidence I could have done that but I didn't I pressed forward please keep in mind the burden is on the defendant to a reasonable certainty reasonable certainty by the greater weight of the credible evidence if you are not So Satisfied of that you are to answer the Court's question no are you satisfied to a reasonable certainty by the greater weight I don't have to prove anything if you get back in that year room you say you know I can't tell which is it I don't know I'm not satisfied to a reasonable conservative I know I hear that argument the reverse as a district attorney defense attorney will get up in the typical case when the burden is ours and they'll argue that he didn't prove it Beyond A Reasonable Doubt and sometimes they'll say look it I don't have to prove he's innocent the defense attorney will say this in the typical trial I don't have to prove he's innocent not guilty doesn't mean innocent not guilty means the D.A didn't prove it that's what in the typical case in this case not satisfied to a reasonable certainty simply says that doesn't say that you're finding him saying it just simply says the defense didn't prove that the defendant by a reasonable certainty did not prove that the defendant was not responsible it's an important concept that finding doesn't say he's sane it says he hasn't proven that he's insane to a reasonable certainty so don't say we have to find him sane you don't you assess what the defense's proof is and if you're not satisfied to a reasonable certainty that he's insane then the answer is no you're not going in there to say we've got to agree that he's sane that's not it the issue is did he satisfy you to a reasonable certainty that he was insane if he didn't then the answer is no at the same time I think we proved it that we proved sanity anyways and I'll talk about that further as I go along but that is a profoundly important distinction and I I you you took you said you'd abide by it and I ask you to continue to abide by it it isn't is he sane or insane it's did he prove to a reasonable certainty that he was insane if he didn't the answer is no you don't have to make a finding that he was saying you're not being asked to make a finding that he was saying you're being asked to make a finding did he prove to a reasonable certainty that he was insane that's the issue before you okay we yet talked about a number of things number one with the mere fact that a person is is uh does a an unnatural act mean that he have a mental disease you agreed that you wouldn't find that because the mirror the Court's going to instruct you on this this isn't words that I put together as the mere fact that the enormity of what he's done does the enormity of what he's done mean that that that alone he must be insane because we talked about it in the bloodier some people as Dr Palermo said by the way candidly I thought he must be crazy from what he did the enormity of this or the unnaturalness of this as the court will instruct you is not ground for saying he's mentally diseased Court will instruct you on that because otherwise well then he must be if he got away with 10 more hey but if you got stopped after one then what it isn't that it isn't how successful you are how many you can get away with it somehow if he got 35 or 40 then he must be even more out of it not at all it's not the enormity of the acts or the unnaturalness of the X and that's also we discussed it what year talked about alcohol and I asked you if you abide by the instructions of the court and there are Specific Instructions about the role of alcohol in an intent in the insanity instruction that the judge will give you I ask you you said you would abide by that and I ask you to listen carefully when the judge gives it I also taught that under certain circumstances and the judge will advise you as to what weight should be given if lay Witnesses testify if lay Witnesses testify and we had put on lay witnesses that talked about his mental status curious question he has lived here 10 years in this community this defendant and not one lay witness came into court to say yeah he's goofy or he's crazy this not one lay witness but we bought it brought in people that did that had contact with him why didn't Jeffrey Dahmer's defense put on someone to say I've known him he lived at the Grandma's house from December of 81 or January of 82 until he got his first apartment in 85 or so 86 why didn't someone come forward a lay witness why didn't someone from elsewhere that had contact with him and say yeah I'd known that guy he's goofy he's crazy he does odd stuff we put him on that said the opposite that's what lay witness testimony is and you've got to sit back and say gee he's lived here 10 years and not one human being that came into this courtroom and said yeah they had to go out of this state to get someone to come in here say that he wasn't saying they had to do keep that in mind that's the importance of lay Witnesses first delay witnesses that we put on to say he didn't seem any strange to us I'll recite all the questions we asked he didn't seem strange it was but consider the negative he put on no one to come in and say yeah he's odd he's different he's strange I noticed this I noticed that he talked incoherent he babbled here not one witness and he's lived here 10 years I asked you three things about the expert Witnesses in the vadir I said would you consider their experience their competence thoroughness experience competence thoroughness I'll talk in a few minutes about that but that's what I asked on the what year and you indicated all of you indicated that you would do that experience competence and thoroughness which seemed to me reasonable grounds reasonable way to evaluate the competence of the expert test of the expert Witnesses let's talk about a few things that were raised by Mr Boyle in his opening statement in terms of this defendant did not come he came did not come from a background of ferocious hardship various people are beaten and sexually abused by their parents assaulted by their father occasionally by a mother by a brother they're beaten and kicked and knocked around you know people like that and I know people like that that have had a life that was a living hell as a youngster that lived in fear of a drunken father to come in and kick and beat the child or to be to be awakened and to find out as as that someone is touching you sexually and the terrible confusion that a child has of apparent sexually molesting that child all of the experts agreed Mr Dahmer had no sexual abuse as a child no physical abuse as a child there was there was a problem it was a broken home they're probably people in this jury box that came from a broken home they're people in this courtroom that came from a broken home there's a word now to some extent that 40 to 50 percent of the marriages are broken homes yeah that's not easy on a kid I'm not saying it's easy discussion about friends Dr Becker talked about friends he had one particularly good friend at age five that he had the parents gave him a dog his parents said named trisky again from Dr Becker at age seven the family moved to Barberton Ohio they lived there until Mr Dahmer was eight age eight Mr Dahmer recalls making some good neighborhood friends called and this went on in later years he recalled being friends with a boy next door over a number of years they eventually had a homosexual experience touched each other that was a friend over several years it was not a violent sexual experience it was a consensual sexual experience testimony about a lad named David in fourth grade where he and defendant David were good friends for three years I disagreed that one of the mothers the mother of David stepped in and said no I don't like this friendship I feel that sad that that had happened I moved as a kid a number of times my dad was in a business that had us moved I hated to leave my friends and say goodbye to my friends but that happens to people talked on about another friend this friendship with Eric went on a number of years at age 15 Mr Diamond was in the 10th grade he recalled being fret good friends he recalled being friends with a boy named Greg that later on he had a friend named Jeff six I don't know what Jeff six at one point there's testimony Jeff six hit some dogs with a car and how the defendant didn't care for that but that was a friend of his this isn't a man that's lived been abused and kicked and knocked around and you say oh we see what happened he lived in a plot of land in bath Ohio one and a quarter Acres nice home a pond in front of the house this is not someone that you say my God he would how could he survive the way he was abused and so on that didn't happen in this case you don't have someone standing here as happens in a lot of criminal cases saying I was kicked and beaten and assaulted and raped denied neglected that's not what we have here the defendant picked up some thoughts how then our doctor opined on it how it may have happened uh the the interest in in uh at least in a totally compliant sex partner which was his first choice a live totally compliant sex partner and an interest somewhere along the way and that that would carry over because of the compliance over to the to sex with a dead person what is this urge that we're talking about and this again is from this sexual disorders the dsm-3r manual over a period of at least six months recurrent intense sexual urges and sexually arousing fantasies that the person either acts on or simply is distressed by sexual urges sexual urges not an urge to kill not an urge to kill every doctor that testified there was a unanimity on that agreement he did not have an urge to kill he did not enjoy killing he found killing unpleasant he found it a verses they say in their technical words you may recall the most Vivid description of that when Mr Dahmer had drugged Ernest Miller and didn't have sufficient drugs and he feared that Ernest Miller was becoming conscious again and Dr Dr Becker said he went and got some more alcohol and consumed it and then took a knife and stabbed Ernest Miller in the Carotid artery sexual urges is what we're talking about sexual urges first for a compliant body a living male and then sexual urges towards a dead body we've all got sexual urges Dr Dr Dietz testified that he was in within the normal range talked about masturbating as I recall two or three times a day said that's in the higher end of the normal range of the normal range Dr Becker talked about masturbating when he started as a Young Man so in the normal range sexual urge somehow there's a this and this is where the word compulsion is so tricky instinctively we think sex with a dead body repulsive why would someone do that it must be some compelling for some compunction inside pushing him into this he doesn't want to do it that's the suggestion of the word compulsion you have to understand what this disorder is he didn't experience it as a compulsion any more than you experience your sexual desires as a compulsion it was a sexual desire at one point Mr when Dr Berlin was rolling along Mr Boyle asked him a question he said however Mr ball closed the question I couldn't couldn't don't remember that but I remember Dr Berlin's answer he said no Mr Boyle sexually exciting for him so when that's why the word compulsion is so tricky naturally you think dead body and the word compulsion seems to what would be pushing you into sex with a dead body but if you have a sexual desire for it and that's what his that's what the emotion was that's what the definition I read the definition of paraphilia from the dsm-3 it's the sexual desire for that just like some people like a a hopefully a kind of fat man in his mid 50s and a little hair how people are drawn in this room here they're different people drawn to different sexual things some of you may perhaps enjoy bizarre things sexually and there there's there's nothing nothing bizarre between consenting you've read it and I've read it in pop psychology they say there's nothing bizarre between consenting sexual partners if you want to dress up like uh like uh uh the Queen Anne and your husband comes in as the king or a vice versa there's nothing bizarre about that it's consensual and people do have bizarre tastes and some people as Dr Dietz said some people have necrophilic tastes and how do they talked about how you relieve it in the same way this defendant relieved it except at age 18. at age 18. he decided he had these sexual desires maybe somebody in this jury box had a sexual desire at age 18. I had sexual desires at age 18. let me tell you I had Keen sexual desires sexual desires strong I had to control you had to control yours what this defendant did he didn't enjoy the killing he didn't enjoy The Killing but his father said it is deed said it Palermo the others Palermo described it as lust lust good old-fashioned solid word that expresses what's involved here a desire a god-awful terrible thing that we don't even want to consider what this defendant did defendant did with this man and this is the one time I'm going to cite Dr wallstrom because he said the defendant said he had a choice on this one this is The Hitchhiker in bath Ohio he had a choice according to Austin he decided this man that sits in this courtroom now who has been described as average intelligence or Superior intelligence keep that in mind when you assess it this man it seems almost incredible that a man to for sexual purposes for his second satisfaction his sexual satisfaction killed Stephen Hicks I don't know Stephen Hicks they never did he didn't have the right for sexual pleasure to kill this man so we have the desire I have desires you had desires did you fulfill all the desires you had at age 18 I'm 55 and I've still got a few that I haven't satisfied this guy decided that he is going to make Stephen Dix die so that he could extend his sexual desire his Pleasures it's hard so it's inhuman to think of what he did underlying never wanting to kill never that that urge to kill no sexually connected desire he's not a sadist doesn't get sexual pleasure out of killing everybody agrees on that it's not the sexual desire does not Embrace The Killing he doesn't like the killing but he decides to extend my sexual pleasure for a couple of days a couple of days I am going to kill and down the line he killed and maybe not just even told me he hasn't been charged and Stephen told me because we don't know precisely what happened but after that that's the story and don't think oh my God compulsion because it's so ugly the thought of a dead body to him it was exciting how would you like it compliant talk about the selfishness of totally compliant sexual partner talk about the underlying selfishness here the partner does everything that you want and you do nothing the partner wants the partner lies they're completely subject you don't want to have someone have anal intercourse with you but you drug them and you have an anal intercourse with him we're talking about a tremendously selfish and I'll give a quote here about his warped selfishness that he gave to particularly to the to the police about his own selfish desire and that's what we're talking about not an abused beaten sexually assaulted kid that had no normal exposure to what sex should be not that at all he did have the idea no one is saying he didn't he didn't have this sexual desire a sexual desire for a totally compliant person but that's what we're talking about here and keep please keep in mind a decision to act to satisfy sexual urges what is the defendant's choice at the time he's arrested he's got 11 skulls four of them are in flesh still he's chapters he hasn't finished processing gotten rid of the flesh he's deflashed them and put them in the garbage or acidified him and flush them down the toilet he hasn't gotten around to Boiling the skulls to clearing him out to keep his mementos what choices did Jeffrey Dahmer have when he was arrested that day oh he was cooperative he was cooperative what kind of choices do you think he had do you think it would be any different maybe we couldn't have found out who all those people were but we'd have found out off to a number where Modern odontology you know that the teeth you can find out who these people are and the fully influenced skulls it's their picture and you publish the picture and you say who is this so what choices did Jeffrey Dahmer have but to cooperate but to cooperate don't get fooled by all he wanted to do this church he wanted once you in a situation with what he was in he was going to try to minimize the damage to himself to do what he could another very tragic aspect of this is sexual urges not trying to go through the litany the through the the timeline before I stop probably sometime after lunch that I'll snuggle through the timeline but after Tuolumne after Stephen Tuolumne there's a discussion and this is verified in fostile Deeds I think the others as well the police definitely told the police after the death of Stephen Toomey besides he's not going to try to resist those urges anymore I've had a few diets I've been on a few diets where I didn't resist the urge to eat chocolate covered Donuts but we're not talking about an urge to eat chocolate covered Donuts we're talking about an urge for corpses and a decision you're going to kill people to get those corpses Mr Boyle is pounded on the alcoholic you could maybe possibly arguably draw the similarities in a way an alcoholic wants a drink a person wants a dead body if he's in a morgue there's a dead body there there's a drive for that a pull for that but the alcoholic doesn't say don't convict me if I go out and kill someone for a drink you recognize you don't say to an alcoholic yeah you got a problem you got to kill somebody for a drink that's okay we understand this man with a dead body is going to have an ex an attraction to it but you don't say hey if there's no dead body okay go out and kill someone and if you don't want to do it you're aversive to it have a couple of drinks and kill them but Jeff Jeffrey you want a dead body go ahead that's what we're talking about and the the the the killing is apart from that as DEET said it's not part of the paraphilia and as every doctor said he didn't enjoy the killing we're not here with a sexual sadist paraphilia if he was a sexual sadist paraphilia I suppose the Dr Berlin would be in here saying he's a sexual sadist I want to make one point clear on Dr Dietz as well in the opening statement it's an important word that that what Dr Dietz disagreed with his colleagues on but please be very careful here he wanted to expand the definition of paraphilia Dr Dietz did to include people who who didn't act on the paraphilia who weren't distressed by the paraffedia but still he said persons that think about it all the time even if they're not distressed by it either if they don't act on he said the the category should be expanded to include that group and some of his colleagues disagreed with that and said no we will limit it to people that act on the paraphilia or persons who are distressed by it for over six months that's what Dr Dietz differed on what about what about the real difference that he pointed what Dr Dietz really pointed out was was that Dr Berlin the great difference between the psych the forensic psychiatric Community looking at paraphilias and saying look it that's not a defense to a murder case that's not a defense to a murder case a paraphilia he said no that's that isn't done except the only forensic psychiatrist that he knew of that subscribed to that idea was Dr Fred Berlin who do we see here testifying Dr Fred Berlin comes in to testify I think you've got to you've got to think and I talked about experience thoroughness competence this is a 15 count murder case you've got three experts never none of them testified in a murder case before Dr Fred Berlin has testified on responsibilities seven to nine times seven to nine times on responsibility and has never testified on responsibility in a murder case never testified on responsibility in a murder case and he is the only identified forensic psychiatrist by Dr Dietz who subscribes to the idea that a paraphilia is a defense on a responsibility issue he is the only one Dr Dr D said that he knows of that would say what this man has is a defense to a murder case hence he's appearing here for his first experience is testifying on non-responsibility in a murder case Dr Becker a nice lady Dr Berlin as well in terms of treatment yes Dr Becker has never testified on responsibility she told you not just in the murder case she has never testified on anything from disorderly conduct upward never testified on the murder responsibility case Dr wallstrom never testified on a murder case Dr wallstrom completed his training his Fellowship although he'd been a doctor several years he completed his Fellowship in July of 1992. he is less today when he testified he was less than seven or eight months out of his training period less than seven or eight months out of his training period he had never testified in a murder case or a robbery case or a burglary case he has testified once before he's testified on an exposure in an indecent exposure case so between all three of the defense experts you've got Berlin seven to nine times you've got wallstrom once so let me make that 10 and you've got Becker never so 10 all together among the three of them they've testified 10 times on responsibility and never testified in a murder case you gotta shake your head on that one and say hey what's going on here what's going on here you've got a defense you've got Dr Berlin hitting the team raising a defense that Dr deast said the forensic psychiatry Community simply does not support that's what the defense is here and you have to ask why these totally almost totally well on murder among among three of them ten appearances as for on responsibility among the three of them we brought to this courtroom hundreds of experiences through Dr Dietz and Dr fostal the court appointed Dr Palermo with hundreds of times you think the court would appoint someone six months eight months out of training what would you say about that eight months out of training you've got to seriously weigh that and say what's going on in this courtroom with a serial killer 15 murders charge at least 17 that he's involved in and we wind up with three experts who have never testified in the murder case and altogether have only testified ten times on the issue of mental responsibility what's going on here foreign [Music] like to talk about planning here's what the defendant said to the police as follows at this time I began you've heard this read I'm going to reread it reread it to you because I think it's that important at this time I began to question Dahmer regarding the way in which he would decide which individuals to approach this is related to individuals that eventually became victims of his listen to this he stated that before going out for the evening he generally would know whether or not he planned to commit a homicide and before going out he would prepare the drug by powderizing it and leaving it in the glass on the counter top of his kitchen he States once at the bar he would generally drink by himself and observe the different individuals in the gay establishment he states that it did not matter the color race or ethnic Heritage of any of his victims as long as they met what he would call the physique physical profile he stated that this was generally from mid to late teens to mid-20s males with a medium height slender build and generally smooth skin he stated upon sitting in the taverns and drinking he would notice one maybe two or three who fit this profile whom he found attractive he also stated that he would generally look for the individuals that were alone or not with a tight-knit group he States upon deciding which victim he found attractive he would generally wait until approximately bar time which would be closing at the tavern and then as the patrons were filing up he would approach the victim and ask if they wish to accompany him home for either pictures sexual contact or for cocktails many of the times offering the money he States this was his General routine except for times when he met some of his victims on the street in front of the bookstores and then the same routine as far as offering money for sex photographs or cocktails plans it before he goes out cold blooded planning for sexual satisfaction your life your life your life for my sexual satisfaction your body will rot in a couple of days so my sexual satisfaction for a couple of days is going to cost you your life another statement to the police he stated the reason why he would have the taxi drop him off several blocks from his apartment was in order to keep the taxi driver from knowing exactly where he lived at and to see if anyone had been following him as he did not want anyone to detect his activities and the defense for that planning that cold-blooded planning the defense is this paraphilia defense this paraphilia defense defense I'm not saying it's not a real problem but it's a new a new argument a new argument that Dr Berlin came in for the first time in his experience to testify to I've talked a little bit about the doctors no one is saying that anyone's a charlatan no one let that not saying that I've asked you to in the wadir to talk about experience Dr Berlin is an experienced in treatment Dr Becker is experienced in treatment and I've talked already about the total lack of experience in terms of forensic assessment Dr Berlin is apparently a forensic psychiatrist apparently unto himself that feels this paraphilia should mean that the person should not be held responsible for it Dr Becker I do not know she she is totally without experience at all testifying so until she testified to that one would assume it would not be known what her attitude was because she had not testified before on it Dr walstrom a fine young man he's not young he worked a little while before he went on through medical school but he's a fine young man and uh he hung tough he talked about that he was psychotic he was the only doctor the court doctors said no he's not psychotic Dr Berlin and Dr Becker said he's not psychotic a doctor uh our doctors Dr fosdoll and Dr Dietz said he's not psychotic but Dr walstrom the man just out of training said no he is psychotic and I pointed out I said well doctor and I I referred to a Dr Charles modal that had examined the defendant on January 5 1989. said Doctor look at this Dr Laurel examined him and he said he's not psychotic and Dr Wilson said well when did he do it I said January of 1989 the murders were underway Dr Walston didn't respond after that I pointed out that when he was at at DePaul and trying to address the where he was being required to address the drinking problem the doctor Greg krems had examined him and Dr Kremes I pointed out Dr KREM said he's got no psychotic processes thought processes Dr wallstrom Hung tough you you have to credit him for hanging tough all the doctors looked at it at that issue I'll touch on various reasons why they did but all the doctors looked at it and all the experienced doctors said he is not psychotic all of them said that except Dr wallstrom eight months out of his training period I'm not saying that's not a personal attack on Dr Wolfson he may be a very fine man but it's raising a question would you expect that Mr that the defendant's attorney here would be eight months out of Law School in in a case with 15 counts of murder and yet the psychiatrist was eight months out of his training program how much time did the doctor spend Dr Berlin said he spent four hours and 45 minutes four hours and 45 minutes with the defendant if depending on how you handle this you are going to rule his attitude in one particular way I started talking about the separate cases after the first several well he said I don't have to count the trees to know I'm in a forest well you're going to have to count the trees you're coming back on separate counts that's why each of my doctors went count by count that's why I kept you in the box that Saturday afternoon when you perhaps were ready to to say to me Mr McCann pull the shade and leave because I wanted you to know that Dr fosdel went through it count by count because a skilled forensic psychiatrist knows that one day you would be going through it count by count and I don't know what you're going to do with Dr Berlin's statement I don't have to count all the trees to know I'm in a forest because you've got to count all those trees that's why I had Dr Dietz go through it count by count pointing out why it was why he appreciated the wrongfulness here and why he could conform his conduct to the requirements of law because I knew you'd have to go through it count by count I don't know what you're going to do with Dr Berlin several things I asked him which I thought were reasonable questions I said did he intend to plant did he plan to kill SS this is the sexual assault case SS yes he did you ask him that doctor no I didn't I knew he intended to do it Dr Becker said that he told Dr Becker that he didn't kill SS because we're going to go to work that night that's what he told fazda that's what he told deets that's an important control question sexual urge sexual urge that says look at I gotta go to work tonight if you'll forgive a story that uh the man that said to honey I love you I'll fight lines I'll climb mountains and if it doesn't rain tonight I'll come over and see you how strong is that sexual urge indeeds asked that he talked about it being within the normal range how strong is that sexual urge Berlin said he was going to kill him he was going to kill him I think there was pretty much agreement that he was going to kill flowers but was there agreement that he was going to kill Becker said he said he's that's what he told our doctors too how did Berlin find that another Point Berlin said well he this ritual cutting up of the bodies I said Doctor did you ask him did you ask him if he was involved in a ritual he said no I didn't ask him I knew it had to be that way well our doctors asked him at length and he talked about it being an onerous Troublesome job he didn't like it cutting it up he didn't like doing it when he was the grandmother's house he wore old clothes and did it we asked him how'd you do it at grandmother's house how'd you do it at your place they got down to his place in like they had a close battered he'd be naked but he didn't like the job he didn't like it he liked an open he liked to masturbate into an open thing but he never liked cutting up the bodies how can Dr Berlin say there was a ritual when when he denied there was and said he didn't he didn't like the job you got to question that but when you only see a person for four hours in 45 minutes you don't have the time to ask those questions I figure there were 20 important incidences here 20. plus the family background let's say that Dr Berlin took the family background for 45 minutes and all of them felt it was important that left him four hours 4 times 60 is 240 minutes you got the 15 slayings and each one should be explored as our psychiatrist did you got the 15 slings you got the the decision not to kill SS you've got the flowers incident and you got the lp incident those are three important incidences to explore and then you've got season hits and Steve told me 17 bodies 17 bodies two of them not charged all of them have to be explored plus the three that he didn't kill flowers SS and LP 20 important things to explore in my opinion as well as the family background and other issues of course if you spend if you're back to Berlin and you spend 45 minutes on the Family you got 20 incidences and 240 minutes to cover the territory that's about 10 or 12 minutes a piece you can't do it yes you could Council can work up things could make it easier but you don't rely on Council maybe it's helpful you ask the questions yourself that's what our doctors did Dr fosdel spent 17 hours I think he said Dr Dietz spent 18 hours you've got a tough job in front of you 15 murders this is not a single count charge where you can go over the facts in in a couple of hours this is 15 17 homicides spread over a number of years and three there were that didn't result in a homicide you can't say I see the forest I don't count the trees because it's important to know that you want to kill SS or not to ask him that was there a ritual involved that he somehow enjoy chopping up the bodies did he enjoy that was there a ritual chanting well he chapped Up the Bodies told everybody there wasn't he told no doctor that there was when our doctors asked him he said no there wasn't he didn't like the job but Dr Berlin says no there was a ritual but he didn't ask and I think you you for you got to say four hours and 45 minutes doctor maybe it just isn't enough and he met for an hour and 10 minutes the day before he he began to testify there's a question left there that that is raised in my mind Dr Berlin testified that he told her something that that night that he masturbated into the viscera that's what he told Dr blind the night before the psychiatric testimony testified we questioned who was there with you Dr Berlin and one of the lawyers was there with Dr Berlin with Dr Becker but Dr Berlin didn't testify about that I asked Berlin well what do you for the cases I said well look at there was no sex in four of the cases apparently uh that after the after they died he said no I'm sure there was well did you ask I know there was I didn't have to ask I know there was but he said nothing about being told that and I pushed him on that issue he never said well Dahmer told me that and yet he was up there Sunday night I don't know what that means I I do not know what that means but uh was he not listening I don't know but in any event I I uh Dr beckerd interviewed him for eight and a half hours this was her first responsibility case I'm sure she felt that she did what was she felt was sufficient although we're talking about really I think 20 instances of seriousness Dr wallstrom interviewed him for ten and a half hours I believe and maybe came back another time but he is a conscientious newly emerged into the into the profession and uh I'm sure he took it conscientiously Dr Berlin has never testified for the prosecution I asked him oh doctor you've been the competency issue may recall seven to nine times was the competency issue that Berlin said he's a testified other times child molesting cases at the disposition level of child molesting cases where he would be there testifying and presumably about his program and what his program could do for the child molester I asked him in all those years I think he said he'd become a psychiatrist in 75 or 76 or 77. it's been the district he's been out there for 15 years as a psychiatrist I said Doctor did you ever testify for the Baltimore City District State's Attorney no I didn't did you ever testify for the Baltimore County State's Attorney no I didn't did you ever testify for any State's Attorney in the state of Maryland no I didn't how about the changeover of DA's that happens in any Community where they're elected there's a changeover in those 15 years none of the district attorneys the State's Attorneys have asked Dr Berlin to testify well doctor what about in other states no all no other State's Attorney asked him to testify what about the federal government no Dr Berlin is called upon to testify only by the defense important you consider that especially when Dr Dietz identifies him as being the only forensic psychiatrist he knows that advances the theory that a paraphilia is a defense on a responsibility charge in a murder case legitimate question to ask he may be an intensely compassionate man wrapped up in treatment in fact there are several said yes I'd refer someone for treatment no one said I would refer anyone him for forensic forensic psychiatry psychiatric evaluation and does a person involved in treatment principally a very caring man do you over identify sometimes and that's the issue you have to ask do you over identify I want to tell you who I identify with has got to be done who are these people that died you didn't see their relatives come in and testify because there was a guilty plea you didn't hear the facts in great detail I don't want you to forget it I don't want you to forget who they are sometimes and this is when I'm in my work naturally I see people getting very concerned about a defendant what's happened to a defendant and because the victim is gone and dead the victim isn't there to say hey what about me what what about me don't don't forget Stephen told me who died in the Ambassador Hotel with the defendant don't forget Richard James Doc's tater on that board James docksteader age 15. picked up by the defendant age 15. don't forget Richard Guerrero who died at the defendant's hands forget Anthony Sears who died at the defendant's hands don't forget Raymond Smith who died at the defendant's hands don't forget Edward Smith who died at the defendant's hands [Music] forget Ernest Miller who was stabbed to death by the defendant because he was becoming conscious defendant had to get a drink to do it don't forget Ernest Smith don't forget David Thomas strangled by the defendant don't forget Curtis strawder strangle to death by the defendant don't forget Earl Lindsay first drilled and eventually killed by the defendant don't forget Tony Anthony Hughes first drilled then extinguished by the defendant don't forget counteract synthism foam age as I recollect age 14. for a couple of days a of sexual pleasure conorack sent this info age 14. don't forget Matt Turner by the defendant don't forget Jeremiah Weinberger drilled who made it alive struggled for life for a day and a half before he died at the hands of the defendant don't forget Oliver Lacy dying at the hands of the defendant don't forget Joseph bredehoft dying at the hands of the defendant his hands those hands you've seen on that table he wrapped them thirsty drug people so they couldn't resist and that's being portrayed to you as a kindly act a kindly act he rubbed him before he killed him what a kind and considerate defendant is I thought about preparing my final argument I thought you remember LP made it alive because he didn't have enough to drug him he tried to hit him in the back and LP got out SS got out because he got out before the drugs took effect flowers got out because the grandmother saw him but I thought to myself is that a kindly Act or a cowardly act to drug them before you kill him do you think if I asked each one of these men each one of these young men even down to the to the 14 year old conorack and the 15 year old doxstater I said look at would you like to take them on with your bare hands give him his knife and take him on every one of them said my God give me a chance for my life of course I'd rather let him have his knife and I'll confront him bare-handed and fight for my life foul and decent vicious act to drug him first so a man didn't even have a chance to reach out to grasp for life to reach out that was no favor don't kill me by drugging me my God come at me with a knife for a gun I'll fight for my life but don't drug me that's what he did and then for three minutes five minutes Dr Palermo said for five minutes it takes to strangle the life out of a man five minutes you wanna do that she'll take it off how long it takes the strangle the man to death try it in the Jury Room try it for five minutes and everybody says he except for Walston knew what he was doing in touch with reality knew it was wrong knew it was wrong don't kill me with a drug please give me a chance take a knife in each hand take a gun in each hand but don't drug me before you kill me that's no favor to me that's no favor don't kid yourself told the police initially with with David Thomas his initial statement to the police was I wasn't drawn to him I wasn't sexually drawn to him but I was afraid when he woke up he'd be angry quote he'd be quote pissed off so I killed him later on he changes his testimony said no he had sex with him that's what he told the police he'd be pissed off the second person Raymond Smith discussion about that too being concerned about Raymond Smith the man that's been referred to as Raymond Smith and cash d ude so with respect to the doctors for the defense conscientious I don't think you can do it in four hours and 45 minutes I don't think you can do it in for a man right out of school can do it in 10 hours or 10 and a half or 12 or whatever he put into it for a man that just finished his training I don't think that's sufficient and Dr Becker who was conscientious obviously but has never ever testified never wrestled with the issue of criminal responsibility and she's treatment oriented and that's good that's good but what we don't we want and they can understand a feeling my colleague asked about using the name Jeffrey well several other several other people use the name Jeffrey but she read that long thing where the name Mr Dahmer Mr Dahmer Mr Dahmer appeared I like people that are compassionate but when I want an expert opinion an independent unbiased expert opinion and then I want someone that can provide that and the issue here is responsibility responsibility shift into the doctors Dr George Palermo experienced tremendously experienced man he talked about his experience in Europe as an experience here in Italy talked about his first experience as a when he was at a hospital in Colorado apparently some man that spoke only Italian got involved in a slaying of some type some incident where there was a court procedure and at first you thought that somehow he as a resident got involved in this court proceeding and testifying he said oh no and I said oh no no no I wasn't I was just in my training didn't testify in that but he assisted in it you heard a very candid man he's a delightful man that you liked him I liked him you saw him here he says he's not he's not he's being forthright he came and he said look I got the appointment I thought he must be crazy he must be crazy look what he did but after he spent he spent I think he said a total of 12 and a half hours with him he said he is not insane Jeffrey Dahmer is not insane and he went in thinking he went into kind of a bias that he must be said no he is not someone asked him about schizophrenia and he said this is Way Beyond schizophrenia Way Beyond a schizophrenic can do only certain things and that brought to mind that you found an echo in that in Dr fosdal Dr fazdal psychiatrist broad experience testified across the state numerous times 20 years he said Mr McCann the most bizarre cases I've seen in my practice are not by insane people they are by in by same people not insane people and he said if you may recall the mentally ill get bum wrapped thinking that this type that this is something out of mental illness don't bum wrap the mentally ill by claiming by finding that this man is mentally ill as as as Dr Palermo said yes he got problems no one is saying he doesn't have problems I'm not standing up here saying he's a healthy healthy with no problems I'm not saying that I'm not saying that he had strange sexual desires he acted on him and killed to satisfy them that's why we're here he is not and all of them by the way all of them said at least average intelligence and several of them I think Palermo was one of them that said no this man has a superior intelligence not average Superior his qualifications are extensive broad experience he's testified often on responsibility cases many times he provided his background his teaching where he's taught how he's been Affiliated where he's in a junk professor and so on he as I see my note Theory did speak he did examine him for 12 and a half hours he appeared to be of high intelligence had a certain degree of emotional tranquility and easiness while discussing the matters at hand talks about the does not evidence any remorse their memory was good his speech was always coherent and relevant and his ideas progressed logically he was fully Cooperative his effect was appropriate to the situation his memory for past and recent events was good goes on Doug talks about alcohol most of them made except for Dr Berlin who added it but in their initial findings said he's alcohol dependent and we've Advanced that and argued it and submitted it and he talks about the incidences then he says this the above was not part of a frenzied type of behavior but was very but but was every time the outcome of a calculated pre-arranged plan that the defendant was able to carry out in heinous crimes the defendant again from Dr Dr Palermo the defendant did not seem to have a great deal of remorse for his killings he seemed to want to emphasize that lust and power were the basis of his actions lust someone should die for that in addition he concluded as my professional psychiatric opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty that the defendant Jeffrey Dahmer was legally sane at the time of the offenses he has been charged with indeed he possessed substantial mental capacity to differentiate right from wrong refrain from wrongdoing appreciate the nature and quality of that of his actions and conform with the requirements of the law he wasn't hired by me he wasn't hired by Mr Boyle he was hired by the court the court will instruct you about appropriate weight to be given to a court expert and you must abide by that instruction but I submit to you he's no Hired Gun for the defense he's no Hired Gun for the prosecution he said he's testified on both sides of these issues there's a quite a break at this point okay we'll break for lunch at this point we'll reconvene at 1 15. question recess all right you seated please if you can at that point oh I think you if I recall you have about an hour to an hour and five minutes left I shall stop at 2 30 then thank you ladies and gentlemen the jury I'm I've been speaking until about 2 30. I know this is a tough time after lunch I know it's tough for all of us and I know this the seriousness with which you view this and I will have to speak rapidly because there's a great deal to cover and I trust that my rapid speaking doesn't put you to sleep the we've we've talked already about Dr Palermo and I've read his opinion to you that the defendant was fully responsible and that did not lack substantial capacity and so on the next the second Court expert was Dr Samuel Friedman he is a psychologist he testified as to his expertise in the area and among the things that he did was uh State the following as he read his report that in dealing with probable ideological factors Mr Dahmer implicates concepts of lust and control further he said feelings of lust particularly concerning adolescent youthful males of well-proportioned physique and finally his opinion was his follow-up in addressing the issue of criminal responsibility it can be stated that there is no substance to The ngi Plea That's Not Guilty by reason of insanity no substance to the to an ngi plea at the time of the alleged offenses Mr Dahmer was fully able to appreciate right for wrong and to conform his conduct to the dictates of the law now it should be pointed out that these are two very experienced men you saw them they're senior men obviously Palermo is a very broad experience Friedman's broad experience and experience in life that came in as independent independently appointed by the court and gave their opinion there was a difference in some particularities there was a difference between them on how they perceive the mental disease issue and let me speak to that mental disease issue a number of the psychiatrists testified that yes there is a different perception within the profession of whether a paraphilia is a mental disease or not that issue was knocked back and forth and it's clear that there is a difference in the profession you're going to get instruction from the judge that it's up to you to decide what label you really have a very broad discretion in determining what's a mental disease or not the court will tell you that you're not going to be constrained by what any psychiatrist says that it's going to be up to you to decide what's a mental disease or not and the court will give you an instruction in an abnormal condition of the mind and so forth I don't see that as a big issue in this case in this here between the court experts there was a split both of them said he is fully competent if both of them said that there's no merit to The ngi Plea he has the capacity to appreciate wrongfulness he has the capacity to conform his conduct to the requirements law both of them ruled that way and one said there's mental disease and one said there isn't it's up to you to decide I don't get hung up on it my suggestion is don't get hung up on it because the definition that the court will give you you decided you're not constrained by any label to me the real issue in this case is Conformity that's what we what the experts for the both both of the X Experts of the Court said that there is capacity to conform capacity to appreciate wrongfulness that's what our expert said that is the issue really before the court is the defense is already conceded that uh in effect that right from wrong the defendant knew no psychiatrist took the stand and said the defendant didn't know right from wrong except maybe wallstrom did I don't really recollect wolfster but certainly Becker and Berlin said he knows right from Wong the the experts from the court said he knows right from wrong our experts said he knows right from wrong we discussed it with our experts down the line particularly Dr Dietz broke out every case on the right from wrong issue and I don't think that's really an issue and I think with the broad definition that the Court gives you you decide what's a mental disease and I don't see that as a hang-up because the the court experts and the state's experts said know that the capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness and to conform is there and I think that's the essential issue of the case and I think to get hung up on the debate say between the court the two court experts is a demental disease or not the issue is capacity both of the Court experts say yes the substantial capacity is there Friedman very bluntly says there's no merit to The ngi Plea or whatever the what was the exact word you rather forcefully articulate it's there is no substance to an ngi plate so to I would suggest you not get hung up over the issue of the mental disease or not the real issue is control and even as the courtside experts ruled that there was believed there was opined that there was control there so do our experts Although our experts also see a difference on that issue as psychiatrists do so the critical issue isn't really whether we call paraphilia a mental disease or not because you're going to decide that and nothing the doctors say as the court will tell you is that you make that decision you're not at all bound by what any doctor said if all of them came in here together and said this is not a mental disease you still have the authority to say yes it is or if they all came in and said it is a mental disease you have the authority to say oh no it isn't so you have a very broad Authority in that area and the fact that doctors split as the the Court's expert split as our split I would say don't make that don't hang up on that because you have a very broad capacity to Define mental disease and the real issue was Conformity I'd like to speak about citizen Witnesses and and their perception of the defendant and we asked them basically the same questions as they testified first the ones that had the the very extensive experience with the defendant and that that is at the place at which he worked Mr Benning and Mr Haney who testified they had had contact with him he started in 1985 at the West Side Chocolate Factory worked there until July of 1991 so you have an experience of six years there with the defendant day in day out what do you work two thousand there's two thousand forty hours say you knock off two weeks vacation is 2080 and a 52 week There's 2080 working hours say if you make it a four week vacation knock it down to 1900 Plus in the two men's vacations are different perhaps you've got but you've got about you've got well over 1900 hours a year that you're working there and over a six year period and both of them came forward and we asked must have sounded like a litany to you but it was the same questions basically did you see any delusions did you see any hallucinations did you see any incoherence any catatonic stupor of any type any stupor was he able to relate his thoughts to one another did he have racing thoughts was he out of touch with reality in any way and they said no they'd worked with him over all those years and said no they've spent literally thousands of hours more than Dr Dietz more than Dr fazdal you can add up all the hours the doctors put together and they're a pint compared to the time that bedding and and Haney worked and they're supervising him they're watching him they're relating to him giving directions watching how he's doing and so on so you you have a tremendous birth of experience there the court as we indicated at vadir the court will instruct you on what way to give lay Witnesses but goodness sakes that's a lot of time to be with a guy who's claiming that he's uh should not be held responsible because of a a mental disease that's a lot of time to spend saying no you see nothing like that we didn't say anything like that nobody disappeared from the Chocolate Factory none of the workers there we also called some other people sockwell Prince Wells the manager of the where he resided where he lived we went right to where he lived talked to the manager that had dealings with him no he said no he's been a good tenant not had trouble in fact which I want to be honest surprised me he said that's that he had the neatest apartment in the building this this isn't the man living in a okay you ought to see my bedroom hate to say that you might think that tay compare that apartment to McCann's bedroom what we're saying is this isn't a wildly deranged apartment even with the activities that he was doing there he said that and others that visited when the officers came in in the midst of the Conor MC involvement the officers came into that apartment said no it's basically a neat apartment so that you you have here's a guy living alone I didn't get married till I was 34. 34 a man keeping his apartment alone clean relatively neat according to soapwell principal sopa the neatest in his building I submit to you is is living a a is not a wildly disordered lifestyle sopa testified to his own education how that he had seen him for the time he talked to him from time to time about complaints about odors the defendant responded to that sopa even considered going into business with him well the the question was put as an investor well then maybe everybody wants an investor in their business but on redirect the question was put on redirect well did you anticipate that he would stop in and visit with your customers and he said yes so that and then he was put the question did you ever see him with delusions hallucinations incoherent was he able to relate his thoughts to one another racing thoughts was he in a stupor was he out of touch with reality in any way he said no no no no no that's that was not Jeffrey Dahmer we called also a man named Kyle Whaley who on 7 12 91 the defendant had decided to increase his uh the barrels he was going to get going to get fired and develop the capacity to wipe out all the bones the skulls and everything if he chose to do that Dr Dietz talked about that that he was weighing that whether he had laid in the muriatic acid 16 gallons of muriatic acid powerful acid and was thinking of of doing away with all the evidence the Beloved supposedly skulls for the temple would be wiped out completely flushed down the drain he'd walked out on July 31st with not a wit of physical evidence not a wit remaining that's why he got the acid the bigger Barrel that's what he was thinking of Whaley sold him that barrel and talked about him they spent some time to together he seemed normal to Whaley took him through the same questions delusions hallucinations incoherence related thoughts racing thoughts super out of touch with reality said no they talked about the different size of barrels how they were and they completed the sale we talked to a Mr Alton from the hardware store to bring you right up to date recently people talking with him as he was getting in the muriatic acid a substantial quantity Alton said yeah it's almost wholesale bulk to get that much of course he not at all dreaming that this was going to be used to to reduce down bones and possibly skulls down the pulp to get flushed down the toilet we talked to the carpet cleaner that visited the home several times he also spoke of it as a relatively trim knee department and what transpired there the efforts of the defendant to apparently remove what was blood but telling him no it's uh it is not blood it's chocolate and he not knowing whether it was red wine or precisely what it was so we presented citizen witnesses to you a cross-section of Citizen Witnesses again I tell you 10 years in this City and the defendant produced no one that's important that's what you call negative evidence you don't just consider what our positive lay Witnesses you say to yourself if he's been here 10 years powerfully strange that no one says hey this is what his situation is I'd like to talk then to Dr falzal again you forgive me if I'm moving at a pretty fast clip Dr fosdoll testified how he saw him starting back on October 16th he saw him for five times you know from that Saturday afternoon how exhaustive he was how careful in particular 17 hours went into each case discussed each case each incident into the background a very careful professional able practitioner a day-to-day forensic psychiatrist in Wisconsin has appeared throughout the state as an expert witness had extensive experience earlier in his career he told you he had worked at the on the under the sexual deviant law at that time in Wisconsin he had worked up in the Waupun area and also in Madison at facilities where he processed and evaluated numerous sexual offenders or alleged sexual offenders referred by the courts this is a man with a substantial experience in evaluating sex offenders he advised what that his interviews he read read substantially from his notes you could see what a what a careful worker he was and what his conclusion was that this defendant did have the substantial capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness of his conduct and of his of and and to conform his conduct to the requirements of the law we put on an expert that has done that hundreds of times not someone that's here to talk about their first murder case and he was engaged by the state contacted by me said a day or two after it uh after this these events unfolded and consulted with us and stated that uh he has most frequently appointed by the court he is most frequently brought on by the court although he might be recommended by one side or the other but most frequently he testifies as a court appointed expert he said he proximated in about 25 percent of the time he supports the plea in other words about 25 percent of the cases that he's involved in he comes in in fact I think as I recall that he said twice in the month of January that in this County and twice in the month of January he had returned findings that the person involved in the case was was met their criteria for not being responsible under the law this is a I submit to you as an independent man of integrity a thorough going professional who demonstrated his commitment to doing this thoroughly and experienced competent and found that the defendant had the substantial capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness of his conduct and to comply his conduct with the requirements of the law some of the issues that he noted I'll be touching on further as I directly addressed the issue of control but some of the exact quotes out of his notes that might be of interest to you quote it's kind of quoting the defendant it's kind of pathetic it's my own fault if I had chosen a different path life would have been different further asked when asked what he was blaming the defendant said I have one person to blame the person sitting across from you no one else no one put a gun to my head I had choices to make and I made the wrong choices I could have made different choices in the past it's obvious to me if I had more foresight when I had to say at one point going to the bass houses quote kept me somewhat satisfied for a while then started after he was closed out of the bath houses started looking around for greater satisfaction spoke said he took two or three men back to Grandmother's home house whom he did not kill they left later when asked how he decided which ones he let go he said those that left I met while I was quite drunk I lost my attraction to them as I sobered up it's a man with a sexual drive that's uh you know it's abnormal man that's able to control it because what he wanted from them was sex remember it isn't the killing that he that he takes pleasure in it's the sex during the the period dependency of the of the SS case talks about a three-month break said he still had the desire but there was quote too much legal activity going on close quote so he just used pornography and videotapes when asked about the lapse in a certain time period he said he continued to engage in pornography and attended bath clubs in Chicago uh they said he was not going to engage in more homicide was going to wait till he got his own apartment I understood that uh in in discussion that he was sometimes he said said he was often quote too tired close quote or quote didn't have the time close quote to find another victim during the interludes said he did not have any planned times when he wanted to pick someone up again just when he had the time but admitted that the desire and the interest were there then the talking uh about Dr foswell told you and I'll dwell on a little more carefully how he never would take someone that had a car isn't that sexual desire talk about being able to control your sexual desire if you choose I suppose if you thought about it for a while about sexual desire you know I love you I love you honey but you've got a car or you don't have a car that sounds like really overwhelming sexual desire doesn't it that's the desire he could handle it because he doesn't want to run a chance of being caught because if the guy had a car as he told fossil the car comes home and sits out in the street he doesn't have a license driver's license and the police would be suspicious if that car was there does that sound like overwhelming sexual drive he would Target them see them leaving at the bar there he had like that guy get a guy alone get him as the bar closes go up does he has a car sorry come on get serious get serious able to control your sexual desire to have a car or not let's not kid ourselves about what's going on here planning it [Music] again I remind you what Dr foswell said my most bizarre act the case is he's handled where the most bizarre acts occur are not the mentally ill don't thumb wrap the mentally ill with this type of case thank you Dr deest the exceptional qualifications I don't think you you saw that curriculum vitae it was handed to you this is a man of extraordinary ability I don't think that anyone could dispute that he is gifted he's worked hard he got his degree at John Hopkins and he went and taught at the Harvard Medical School that is a a tremendous thing for a young man coming out they assigned him up to Bridgewater he said they were trying to trying to change the bridge the image of the Bridgewater Medical hospital and and it became where they're processing people they're going into the courts so he was involved in hundreds of evaluations of people going into court through the Bridgewater Hospital in the state of Massachusetts as he taught on the Harvard faculty and in the medical school there running that particular program involved him in people hundreds of cases of people that were on their way to the courts that were passing through the Bridgewater hospital it was then said he was approached by the government to work on the team in the Hinckley case then worked for a period of time on the Hinckley case you then accepted a double involvement at the University of Minnesota the University of Virginia where he was on both the law school and the medical school faculties law school and medical have an unusual combination here is a forensic psychiatrist invited at a respected law school respected Medical Institute to be on both faculties this is a man knowledgeable in the law and knowledgeable in medicine a thoroughly thoroughly qualified individual has he done a lot of work for the government you bet CIA Mr Boyle elicited those distinguished cases National cases that you've read about then he talked about serial murder cases in which he has testified there's been more than one murder talked about the Arthur shawcross case he has written and researched in the area of Serial killing this defendant is a serial killer he is a serial killer this psychiatrist has testified in such case has research Tut's case cases and has written about such cases you get who has been on a law faculty and the Medical Faculty a uniquely qualified commentator on the legal scene and on the psychiatric scene and he is a top-notch individual towards the end of the day the second day when Mr Boyle was cross-examining I must confess I had assumed because the defendant and I'll set it again and again I think I read it at the opening statement I can read it again on alcohol the defendant said he was drunk every time he did he had drank well I think maybe everybody relied on that and Mr Boyle put a question to him this was late in in the in this cross-examination well doctor have you always assumed that he was under the influence because of his statements he said oh no and he turned pulled there he was his notes flipped open the notes Jeff six he quotes Jeff six from high school starts quoting from high school what happened in high school what military discipline was levied on the defendant for intoxication I'll tell you I I just I was taken aback myself as he started to go through incident by incident in the military released from the military early an incident back in bath Ohio where there was a resistance a fighting a a tying eventually tying in the absenteeism that there's been a correlation between drinking and absenteeism at the job I'll tell you I just know about you but this is even though the defendant said repeatedly he'd been drinking the doctor didn't believe it he he elicited that I invite you I invite I suggest to you do you think Dr Berlin could have done that this is an extraordinarily competent who brought a lot of hard work to this matter and was able was organized he's knowledgeable he's on that special paraphilia subcommittee of the dsmr he's knowledgeable in his field he's practiced this is a I think an exceptionally gifted human being he talked about the responsibility issue and that each case then he broke it out down through the case here's the evidence of knowing the wrongfulness here's evidence on the Conformity issue detailed write down every case and I submit to you when you're back picking out the trees in the forest is this what is this one this you're going to remember I submit to you're going to recollect that faustal and Deets talked about each case opine on each case you will not find that you can search to your eyes or sore your memory you're not going to find it about Dr Berlin who said no I see the forest I don't need to go through the trees I don't need to look at each tree I submit to you you have to look at each tree and I that was one reason why I wanted to be very very thorough in preventing my psychiatrist that they had done exactly that that they had checked every tree in opine on the basis of their examination of those trees I'd like to talk about the issue of control and I'm going to make this somewhat of a mix of historical I'm premising some of this on Dr Faust doing some of it on Dr Dietz and what you've heard let's talk about the the what's involved here the Stephen pitch matter whatever the defendant whatever his paraphilic interests were at that time there was no killing until he was this this occurred in the summer of 1978 honor about June 20 it was 1978. there was been talk about a a jogger I listened carefully and it was clear some of the doctors thought that he had planned to kill the joggers some of them thought that he had planned to render the jogger unconscious I don't think you can see that clearly and either as I recall Dr Decker's notes it sounds like the defendant told Becker unconscious isira called Berlin thought it was going to be that he was going to slay the man but at any rate the first Lane takes place Stephen Hicks in the summer of 1978. what happens after that he finishes the summer in bath Ohio and goes for the first quarter to the University of Ohio oh and after University Ohio to Ohio State we all know that the midwestern land grant College we're talking like Madison thousands and thousands of young people walking about many hundreds who must have met the physique the interest of this defendant and yet he doesn't say anybody there's no evidence of involvement in the sexual assault the biggest thing that comes across is a lot of drinking during that time but no involvement no involvement in any sexual activities he returns uh goes into the army in December of 1978 and goes down south to barracks and of course to a training period then over to Germany and is in Germany for several years there is evidence as Dr Dietz threw out that he responded to a sexual needs by masturbating by use of pornography but no evidence that he initiated sexual assault on anybody no evidence that he killed someone to get their body no evidence that the desire didn't continue presumably the desire continued the paraphilic desires but the defendant control of them he's released early because of drinking and in March of 1981 going down to Miami Florida Collins Avenue I don't know if anybody in this jury has been on Collins Avenue but uh it's along the beach he talks about sleeping on the beach Florida from March to September must have been thousands of young men young men walking around with the physique that attracted him but he doesn't kill him does not involve himself in the sexual assault in any of those individuals he turns to the city of Milwaukee returns to Ohio in in September or so there was evidence that the father brought him back up to uh we came back up to Ohio no evidence of an assault in Ohio from September to December of 1981. in December of 1981 as I recall there was testimony that cited as December and some testimony of 81 and some that cited it as January of 82. he moved up here to West Allis to his grandmother's house that time 1982 takes a job at the at the plaza blood bank again the particularity of this Dr Dietz and it's an odd thing he brings it out he he uncovered it and tells you yes he had an experience he drank the blood of a naked Native American he brought that out as I recall no other psychiatrist brought that out a thorough man questioning well what happened at the at the at the plasma company and what did you do and effective questioning and shares that with you shares that item with you uh and said no he didn't like it and wiped himself off and and never did it again but a man that feels that you may want to know that and brings that out to you Dr Dietz as I recall he was the only one that mentioned him of course he testified last wasn't as though someone suggested it to him by earlier testimony he testified last from that time he worked at the plasma and was there for a year and then left that job then there's discussion in 1983 and 1984 he's still living with a grandmother he decided to become falls under the religious influences of the grandmother and his lifestyle changes substantially he starts dealing he says quoted suppressing the fantasies the paraphilical fantasies Cuts back substantially on masturbating starts going to church starts reading the Bible this is a commitment that shows control shows this capability of suppressing what he wants to when he wants to suppressing the fantasies and suppressing other activities he might otherwise been pursuing we have the incident in the library the West Ellis Library a guy drops a note in his lap uh let's come on downstairs to the life to the bathroom and I'll give you a a homosexual type of a proposition the defendant at first shrugs it off starts thinking about it and then re-engages himself starts going to the porno shops finds out about the bath houses and the gay bars and starts involving himself in that lifestyle that's the defendant's choice that is his choice that's what he does talked about it as a choice that he pursued he then becomes involved in the bath house activities several men want to have anal intercourse with him and he doesn't like it he submits to it but doesn't like it however he likes the media the opportunity to meet people there and to experience sex there so he takes care of it how does he take care of it goes and lies to a doctor about getting some sleeping drug that he needs a drug and starts doing it you can set the date there was testimony by Lieutenant moyler about how many pills were bought at what times and you can see where he was using him for the bath house work and then you can see when he's buying him when he's using him as his first step in the slaying of a human being you can see other many many hundreds of pills that were involved and he himself rarely using it rarely using it and the defendant then starts drugging people at the bath houses that's pretty pretty rotten thing to do pretty rotten whether you approve of bath houses or not that isn't the issue in this case I suppose whether you approve of doing that or not isn't the issue either the issue is homicide but it's a rather selfish thing to do come in and say okay especially when he doesn't like to be sexual anal sexual intercourse drugs the guy then he does it then he does it on him he has a close call he said somebody almost dies they've got to get him out to the hospital he appreciates the danger of the drugging when one of the individuals has to be taken out to the hospital the drugging event he's out of the bath houses now and starts going to the hotels and he speaks of going to two hotels and eventually in November of 1987 he's by the way when he's drugging these guys he's not killing him there they are they're helpless he doesn't kill him in the bath houses and he doesn't kill him in the hotels and then we come into November of 1987 at The Ambassador Hotel he's not charged with that count I don't know what happened in that count I don't know what happened with Mr Tomy there's no potty left there is no Corpus delect die for Mr Mr Tomy no one can say how Tommy died the defendant says he woke up and uh and there was Mr Tomy with some some chest problems dead he had drugged him did he die from an overdose I don't know I don't know how Tommy died but he was his body was totally destroyed by the defendant so there's no Corpus delicti for the Tony matter the defendant then decides in right at this period of time this is November of 1987. however that's that's however that is its initial in this case how Tommy died it's a fact though because you want to consider that in the psychiatric assessment after this the defendant decides he's not going to try anymore he decides he's not going to try resistant I don't know how well he's done resisting because he's been into the bath houses but he's not going to resist anymore and here's I say not resisting all of us got to try till the day we die you gotta try and if it's a sexual interest that you have if you're drawn to the lady next door or if you're drawn to Children down the street or if you're drawn to somebody you work with we gotta try I'm 55 and my sexual interests haven't stopped I'll be candid with you and do you think I can stop controlling I don't think so but this defendant decides you're not gonna try anymore he is not going to try anymore what is the price of not trying anymore not jeopardizing his marriage it's bad enough people do those things the price for him is first to render people on drugs so he has enjoys the sex and then to kill them to continue for a couple of days of pleasure and after that change what happens right here he talks about it with I think virtually all the psychiatrists discussed this discussion and um on it comes whether it's disgusted urges or compulsion I talked about compulsion and I'll again with the felt paraphilia is is a sexual urge recurrent intense sexual urges that's what we're talking about you've had Fairfield if it were if you are drawn to your wife you're single the difference is the object is that I've had intense sexual urges I assume the people in this room Miss to the people in this room have had intense recurrent sexual urges that's very natural to have that it's a paraffinia because the object is an unconscious person or a dead person that's the difference not something super hypersexual as Dr Dietz said normal sexual drive at the higher end but within the normal range and I'm sure they're probably people in that in this box that maybe have are Beyond are in the higher end of the normal range at any rate that after this decision what happens James docks Tater age 15 sorry Mr docstator I want a couple more hours of sexual pleasure you are going to have to have to die to give me those hours of sexual pleasure so we're talking about that's what this case is about the James dot Stater dies he doesn't have a car what's this chopping up stuff you know it's not a ritual he said that what's this chopping up stuff hey that sounds strange chop them up he doesn't have a car he already had an experience back in bath Ohio remember when he chopped up to homie he stopped at 3am by the bath Ohio police department they stopped they think he's drunk it's left to centered he took he told the psychiatrist the officers even flashed it in see the bags the garbage bags in the back of the car he's had an experience hauling tomi's body back in 1978. he doesn't attempt to borrow a car to haul the body he decides to destroy the evidence right there and he is immensely effective at it immensely effective acidifying eventually his acidifying process immensely effective at it and as I say at the end he could have done it all with the eriatic acid he had the 57 gallon barrel he could have wiped out all traces of all these people and as these told you he was thinking precisely of doing that next year you've decided and he proceeds to do it next Guerrero and he kills Guerrero loses the same drugging Ronald Fowler this is very important and very interesting rattle flowers I think there's there's a little doubt that he intended to kill Ronald flowers even as he had brought home documentator and Guerrero what about neither of these men had a car flowers had a car remember flowers testified couldn't get his car started he was with his friends at the the club down in the area couldn't get his car started goes up to the telephone he's going to make a phone call and who approaches him the defendant Dom they're talking oh I can't get my car started Dahmer says come on we'll grab a cab home I'll take my car and come back and jump start you Dahmer doesn't have a car to come back and jump start him he doesn't have a car what do you think Dahmer had in mind you saw Mr flowers I would not wish to confront Mr flowers when he was angry you saw him testify the defendant don't come on out to my place and uh you know I will jumpstart I'll get my car we'll come back and jump start your car and out they go to his house and of course he drugs Mr flowers Mr flower said as he came in the house he heard an older voice saying is that you Jeffrey the grandmother Mr flowers is drugged and uh passes out comes two in the hospital comes two in the hospital and the defendant with the psychiatrist tells what he had done that he had sex with him that somehow or somewhere the grandmother came along and either saw somehow came to light that he was there that that other man was there flowers was there that saved Ronald flower's life and the defend didn't proceed didn't wait till the grandmother left the house or what got him out of the house and this happens in other cases where there's some something the thing the plan goes awry changes changes his plan the plan was to kill it's the stroke is underway the grandmother apparently saw Mr flowers Mr flower is alive by that chance alone otherwise the defense and the defendant's ability to change change the plan then the sexual assault the transpires here there is a five-month period where the defendant is not involved in any assault sexual assault of ss he testified you saw him here you were passed I remind you you were past a stipulation not identifying him by name but you know his particular relationship to another victim you're aware of that SS is invited on the street a 13 year old boy this was on September 26 1988 you saw him here in court and you saw how slight he is now and that's two and a half years ago you decide yourself what he would have looked like he invites him in this this 13 year old lad with a 50 offer and proceeds to drug him too takes pictures takes a hold of his penis takes it out takes some photographs and slips him the drug and the kid realizes that that something is awry and gets up and leaves and Dahmer says no I've got to pay and the kid goes home drug winds up in the hospital and The Police become involved I asked Dr Berlin what did he intend to do to SS and he said Joan he told Dr Becker he intended to go to work that night and uh that he wouldn't that wasn't going to kill him because he had to go to work that night that's what he told Dr Dietz and Dr fosdel he was at work that night we know that because that's where he was arrested when the youngster called the police Gary temp testified the officer went out to the house after he'd come back from the hospital It's a Good Samaritan Hospital interview the kid took the kid down to the apartment building identified the the defendant's apartment went to the manager got the name and the work site and they went out and arrested Dahmer at the West Side Chocolate Factory at one or two that morning this is on the 27th of September on this day when he was arrested what happened there the defendant exercising control either he decided that he was going to go to work and didn't want it or he decided that he wouldn't attack this youngster because the youngster hadn't fully gone under the drug in either event he made that decision sexual drive I can only analogize it to a woman let's say but honey I love you but I got to go to work tonight sexual you know capacity to control or was he didn't want to struggle relatively slight young man he didn't want to struggle with him wouldn't run the risk even though it was minutes before that drug would take place didn't want to struggle that might call someone's attention to what was going on so SS by that by virtue of that drug making it out of the house SF does not die on 130 89 there was a plea while this case is spending the defendant is eventually sentenced on May 23 1989. he talks about running into Sears Anthony Sears and me like Jeff Connors testified the man that drove the car out they had met he said he and he was with Sears Sears met with Dahmer and he gave them a ride out notice where he dropped off though said well they dropped off and he gave the the intersection when officer Yaki testified he said that intersection was about two or three blocks from the grandmother's house there you have direct conference confirmation not just the defendant and I read to you how he said when it was a cab he always got out here he gets out and you see the effectiveness of that because Connor came back and looked and they couldn't find out remember I think he said with the sister of Sears trying to find out what happened this year's and it was effective being dropped off blocks away was I think where do you look blocks away flowers it said that too you may recall flowers said when they rode out in the cap what is this he's got to walk a couple of blocks before they get to the grandmother's house so even the cab driver wouldn't know what had transpired in any event he is sentenced and I will read in a few minutes from the transcript of that sentence because I want to remind you in terms of control from this period on from the 10th of the 25th of March 1989 until the 20th of 90. that's 14 months there are no more slings no more slaves during this time the defendant serves nine months at the house of correction nine months of those 14 months he's at the house of correction five months he is not at the housing Direction during that time he slays no one he's released every day he's he's released to go to work control comes back he could say I'm just overwhelmed I've got to go out and get a dead body but he doesn't do that he does not do that on Thanksgiving day he's out starts drinking meets a man who and he said how he talked to psychiatrist said how he is drinking that night and and I think it was that Thanksgiving and winds up being hogtied himself with some man putting a candle up his rear end in an odd turn twist to the tables he becomes the victim of another man's exploitation but in any event for that 14-month period nine of which is released to go to work no evidence of sexual assault control because he has decided not to have that he mentioned somewhere along the line he's waiting till he gets his own apartment he gets his own apartment so well testified as I recall in early May the defendant gets his own apartment on North 25th Street during dependency of this matter he said he after after this arrest shortly thereafter he went back to Grandmother's house then he's at the house correction in early May of 1990 he gets his apartment on North 25th Street and after that Raymond Smith is the first victim he's got his own circumstances his own Arrangement and we start through the slaves he becomes more effective at it let me talk a little bit some of the things some of the pattern here of these slings he could stop when he wanted to you saw the long periods when he did not when he chose to not to engage in these activities Dr Dietz asked him he told Dr Dietz that at the time he had killed each of these 15 victims he would have refrained from doing so if a Witnesses had entered the room the fact that Dr Mr Diamond was able to suppress his sexual behavior other than occasional masturbation for a prolonged period of time in 1983 and 84 when he was with the grandmother the fact that Mr dabra was able to satisfy his sexual desires with masturbation at all times not full complete but substantial satisfaction the fact that Mr Dahmer did in fact satisfy himself exclusively with masturbation from about 1973 until the murder of hicks in 1978 and from that time into the entry of the homosexual subculture of the bath houses Etc in other words the time he was in the military the time at Ohio State all those periods of time he was chosen to exercise control the fact that Mr Diamond prepared himself for some of the murders by clearing spaces an apartment by powderizing tablets I've already read from the police report about that before going out to find a victim by drinking by viewing pornography by viewing the films he talked about Dr testified out who of the psychiatrist took the time to view the Jedi film and The Exorcist three films who of the psychiatrist one psychiatrist Dr Dietz he knew what he was talking about when he showed let's see that you know let's see what portion of that film no other psychiatrist that's what thoroughness is when I asked you would you consider experience and thoroughness that's what thoroughness is show me these films and Dr deason saw those films he was knowledgeable about them when he formed his opinion no other psychiatrist did bought Mr Boyle started talking about these films and what they were doing and so on Dr D saw them Dr Berlin didn't talk about it Dr Becker didn't talk about it none of the other doctors talked about it but Dr deese did that's why that's why when you talk about thoroughness you're talking about a master when you're talking so these films are important enough to Mr Boyle argue about him why didn't his psychiatrist look at them Dr D's did look at them to see what role or influence they might have the fact that Mr John John Dahmer generally limited his murders to weekends when he would have sufficient time to enjoy and initiate disposal victim before returning to work the fact that Mr Dahmer did not kill any of them and he was attracted to while in bars around the street or at the mall or the peep show booth or pornographic bookstores or in the bath houses he did this is the man when he said he would go out if he couldn't find a guy with a car without a car and go back home not to start prowling the streets driven overwhelmed by sexual desire prowling the streets to get a man not the way he operated tightly controlled his place get him in drug them do it no car tightly controlled not so you know I can't get a man tonight I'll go out in the streets and look in the alleys and get someone not that that's what control is about that's what the fact that Mr Dahmer did not kill these men whom he found attractive and had rendered unconscious even after lowering his own inhibitions to drinking where the bath house setting would preclude readily readily escaping detection in other words in the bath houses where they were unconscious the hotels up to the tummy incident not involved with any slaves even during these times the possible pointed out in his testimony from his notes discussion that when they got backed up in Milwaukee if there were too many bodies he'd go down to Chicago the Chicago bath houses and you heard that man testified from the Chicago bath houses he brought that evidence that he was registered down there the number of times he went down to the Chicago bath houses and and took care of his sexual needs in that way again not violating the law taking care of his sexual needs the fact that Mr Dahmer did not kill many a drug unless he continued to find them sufficiently attractive to Warrant further steps indications that particularly from fossil as I recollect Deets and then if he sobered up he didn't like these guys that was that he didn't proceed to kill him the fact that Mr Dahmer reported that after rendering each of his victims unconscious he voluntarily drank additional alcohol for the purpose of overcoming his natural inhibitions against killing them the fact that Mr Dahmer did in each instance wait until the victim was in his place of residence under his control and behind closed doors before killing the victim there are no slaves on the street and even when I'll talk about LP in a few minutes even Tracy Edwards he doesn't Chase Tracy Edwards down the hall Tracy Edwards is outside the apartment boom that's it not a Pursuit and the testimony from fossil indicating that money he'd be tired he wouldn't do it he'd been working all week he wouldn't do it if the person would have cooperated with him and stayed this is what happened to Weinberger Weinberger is a guy brought up from Chicago for two days the guy stayed for the first day doesn't hurt him secondary drills because Weinberger starts talking about going home so it's not the first day he delays it and he prefers he's indicated he prefers them alive and compliant and again as I've said before which to me is that the guy doesn't own a car that to me is a well that that you can see the control that he exercised throughout this is not a man ravenously searching about and even when he when it started to step up in terms of his own of his slayings he doesn't vary from that he doesn't attack anybody on the street foreign let me speak at this time also to the flowers case I talked to that to some extent you can see where he decided that he would not proceed with flowers the SS case that's the lad 13. by the way after he was arrested you heard Tempe and shaper I talked about citizens lay Witnesses testifying that he seemed rational and so on officer Tempe testified he was involved in two incidences with him the incident at the uh the arrest the investigation of the SS case and several months later when the defendant himself was was struck over the head that officer was involved two separate times Tempe had contact with him Lieutenant Schaefer testified about he was involved in the arrest you think an arrest is a person was was on the edge here's an arrest a very dramatic experience the defendant was arrested Schaefer talked about it talking with him went out to the home recovered the drugs and uh the defendant I asked about that both those officers no delusions no hallucinations no incoherent was able to relate one thought to another no racing thought was not in the stupor seemed to be completely in touch with reality those are both those officers involved the young lad himself SS described it nothing unusual about that behavior that he described SS the defendant other than what the defendant did with his penis of course the boy didn't know that he was being drugged at the time in terms of the of the lp case again on juvenile he has not justified but there has been substantial testimony about what Mr Dahmer has said about that and it will be on that testimony particularly I'm referring now to the police reports that were read to you by Officer Murphy in the opening days uh Dahmer had met Dahmer said he had met this this young man 15 and spent the night with him the night before and he let LP leave and they agreed that they would meet at 12 the next day and that he Dahmer would give him money for the previous night's activity in others it didn't kill him the first night didn't kill Alfie because they agreed to meet at 12 the next day armor went on to say he took that to mean 12 noon but went to look for for LP didn't find him came back to that same bar later that night thinking maybe it was midnight and in fact does see LP there earlier in the day because Dahmer said he was out of prescriptions early in the morning he went to the Army Navy Surplus store on West Wisconsin Avenue where he bought a plastic camera Mr Diamond did he stated that he bought this hammer and planned to use it to strike Mr Panetta in the hit sorry I'm sorry Mr LP on the head in order to render him unconscious so that he could strangle him and to make him one of his victims this is Mr Dahmer telling the police buys the hammer so he can render him unconscious so that he could strangle him and make him one of his victims he's had one Pleasant night with him he's going to meet him again and decides he's going to do him in 15 year old boy approximately 2 30 a.m he again saw LP standing inside the Phoenix Tavern at this time LP agreed to accompany him back to his apartment and they took the cab he stated that once at the apartment they again engaged in sex which involved kissing masturbation oral sex he then wanted to take some pictures then he asked LP to lie on his face on his bed and he could take some pictures from the back at that time Mr Dahmer took out his plastic camera and struck LP in the back of the neck in an attempt to rendering him unconscious however he was not rendered unconscious a a fight ensued to some extent Mr that the only reason Heimer tells him it says LP got angry and got up at which time a small argument ensued Dahmer stated that the he gave LP a reason thought LP was going to take 200 from him LP was angry did not buy that explanation and left stating that he was going to call the police LP does this Mr stammer stated that LP in fact left the apartment in the apartment building however approximately 10 minutes later he heard pounding on the outer apartment Lobby door and when he went to investigate LP was standing there requesting to get back in and asking for money he's a 15 year old boy imagine not knowing not appreciating the danger he had seen Dahmer he had been attacked by Dahmer he was expecting the dimers got this culminating uh it goes back he's a 15 year old boy Mr Dahmer stated that at this time LP followed him back to his apartment and once inside Mr dommer grabbed him by the neck and attempted to strangle him in a fighting suit this is the Mr Dahmer that always tells you he's drugs people not in this case with LP he attempts to strengthen it you decided earlier that LP was going to be a victim and to fight ensue he related that they fought for a couple of minutes when Mr Dahmer simply stopped fighting and decided to calm the situation by saying let's talk and they agreed they talked for a while they talked for several hours Mr stuff dimer the young lad let Dahmer bind his hands behind his back however not very tight and they continued to talk dimer indicated that during the next half hour or so LP regaled free from the extension cord he had tied on his hands and attempted to leave the apartment when Mr Dahmer in fact grabbed his six inch bladed black plastic handled bike it's a Dahmer grabbing a knife LP is going to leave again he stated that he believed that LP thought that this was a gun and decided to sit down again he related that they began to talk and talked approximately until 7 A.M here's the point Mr Dahmer stated that during the talk he was trying to convince LP not to tell the police about the knights activities and he continued to apologize for striking with the hammer Mr Dahmer stated that though he had he did intend to kill LP and make him one of his victims that because of the previous night's sexual activities and that fact that they had spent hours talking he began to sober up and no Miss Mr Pinay just like that no Mr LP on a more personal level and had decided that he would not kill him decision not to kill talk about talk about walking into the jaws of death the youngster going back after he even struck by a hammer but the defendant not not capable when he's personalized I think it was fossil that testified how the defendant would make objects that people didn't want to get to know them didn't want you heard the initial police testimony he didn't know their names either got this body this person that person most of their names he didn't know a few IDs had been recovered but most of the persons he did not know LP gets them he deliberately objectified him because they were going to be father for his sexual desires he was going to kill him in terms of uh the Conrad case like that yes counteracts into some poem that incident because I think that again shows control substantial control he takes in counteract meets them I think he sat at the mall Payson promises fifty dollars he's a 14 year old boy 14 year old boy takes them to the apartment gets them in there has imposed you know he posed because the police saw the pictures and he was conscious while he posed he says then he grubbed him drugged the boy and drilled a hole in his head and then went out himself dahmered slept for a while as I recall he said then he went out for some drinks leaving leaving counteract synth is a foam there in the apartment he's at the theater in a while he's coming back and sees uh counteracts into some phones sitting on the corner naked the young man has gotten out loud despite this uh despite the drilling apparently a small bit but there he is he's under the obvious he's been drugged and he's had a involvement you maybe call Weinberger also lived a day and a half I think he indicated that Weinberger made it Beyond several of them apparently survived the drilling for a period of time for the longest of course was weiner who made it a day and a half as I recall um there he sees him he goes up to him there are some people there already he talks about going up to them and it's after he's with them that the police arrive they find him in the alley there and the squad car pulls in gabrish and bolsters act testified there he is the defense is painting him as a wild man out of control at this time that's not the description of the police not a wild man out of control it's calm no it's a tough he's written this out before this is not his first time after flowers you may recall after the flowers incident first of all let's go back even to Hicks when the police stopped him with Hicks body chopped up in bagged in the back of the car the defendant gutted his way through that persuaded the police and they let him go in the flowers case officer Yaki testified that flowers after he recovered in the hospital filed a complaint and Yaki went out and talked to the defendant no he didn't do that defendant later admitted he had stolen 80 as well as drugging flowers but he persuaded Yaki no no no that's that's not so and here he is again calmly with the police no this man is a friend of mine he's we're friends but he's living his name is John among and he's calm he's orderly I've been drinking not does not appear to be drunk but it is apparently the continued by his own testimony was drinking and the officers talked with them and they are persuaded by him these are not better these are veteran officers that they I asked them how many years you've been on the course these aren't kids that started last week also Zach particularly who talked with him who initially talked with him there in the alley and then balser's act turns to the group is there anyone here that knows this man and certainly Dahmer heard that no one responded and he would know now that no one knew who he was with and back they go the officers gave her testified they walked back up the alley into the apartment into the living room he also describes it as did Mr sopa Francois neat apartment while they walk in the officers walk in it's orally they're the clothing laid on the on the couch and here the one officer Peru can finds the pictures and they're they're you saw the mark they've been put into evidence there's the young man closing they said he's awake standing this is not the posing of a man unconscious and and the defendant is cool and collected and Hammonds the police as he's done it before as he's done it before does this sound like a man out of control does it sound like it may not have control with a neat apartment persuading veteran police officers calm collected persuasive that sounded like a man out of control doesn't sound like a man out of control to me persuades those officers and they leave and then he proceeds later did he kill Connor what did he do drill him again put acid in or strangle him he knew the police would not know you know they thought I had it down to John hamam had not seen identification and he the fleshes deflections counteract saves the skull is there some risk in that yeah there's some risks that's a Memento that's a momentum for him there is some risk but here's a guy that's running risks and he talks on and it was read to you how at the point he was at this point that's how he said it was a friend of his to the ladies that were there and proceeds to testify he stated that the victim told the police of the victim was in fact a close friend of his and gave a fake name he told the officers as he had fooled the officers before us he didn't see it pulled Yaki as he had fooled the police and uh in the of course the young man himself could not speak was apparently damaged by the either by the drug or by the drilling and he persuaded the police that uh fools the police I think is the honest way to say it listen to this what he has to say this is a man that the defense is arguing is out of control what does he think to himself regarding the incident with the police this is from the confession regarding the incident with the police and the Asian boy Conor access is a phone he related that although he was extremely nervous during the time of the questioning by police he put on a very calm attitude and felt he was able to convince the police that it was a Lover's problem between two homosexuals he stated that due to the fact that he was able to convince all these people in positions of authority his parents and neighbors who questioned him regarding his activities it gave him a feeling that he could get away with his crimes he felt that he had the ability to make people see a faith of him that only he wished them to see and that this encouraged him to continue on with his crimes feeling that he would not be caught that's the man that they're claiming was out of control at that time I must move very expeditiously as I do not have much time please Mr Boyle will speak again remember I there's the time is short but I touched the snow so much more in terms of certain issues what about cutting up the bodies sounds strange that's how he was getting rid of the evidence he said he didn't like it said it was tough work the only person that suggested otherwise was Dr Berlin he said the ritual I said did he ask him that he said no he just decided Berlin decided on his own without asking the defendant the defendant to everybody else said no chopping it up was Dirty Work he didn't like it but he had a real plan to get rid of the evidence and boy he did what about the temple let's talk about the temple for a minute all the doctors at least as I recall most of the doctors spent time considering that all of them want to know was this a delusion and all of them except Wall Street all of them said no he is not may have strange idea here but not delusional not psychotic not hallucinating except for Waltham but each of the doctors considered that maintaining the temple is is not the charge that's here the charge is murder in terms of body parts Dr teets testified there was some backup some skeleton he wanted to keep and there was some backup from the activity that he was doing again the doctors looked at it with the exception of wallstrom all of them said he was not psychotic and was eating the same thing with eating yeah that sounds strange he's not on trial here for eating let's remember that oh eating it's the issue of the slaves that brings us here not the issue of eating not the issue of having sex with the corpse it's the issue of the killings that he didn't that wasn't part of the sex pleasure that he did a dirty step I think or a bridge his father the Father Bill referred to it to accomplish what he wanted to have sex to continue the sex with these the alcohol I don't think we need to go over it briefly when we went to the police and the confession he stated that when he killed these individuals he was always drunk and the drinking helped him get into the frame of mind that made it easier for Tim he's related that he even drank when he was cutting up the bodies and he again stated that it helped to make it easier when he was doing this in terms of the last three men what he did with the last three men Jeremiah Weinberg he picked up in Chicago at the Carol's bar in Chicago persuaded him to come back to Milwaukee you think that was a Madman persuaded Jeremiah Weinberger to come from Chicago the wild-eyed mad man out of control he persuaded another adult male to come back to Milwaukee with him spent a couple of days with him before he killed him two nights so and the defendant continued with respect to Oliver Lacy meets him on the street 27th Street about 3 P.M on a Sunday afternoon uh brings them back uh does that sound here's the olive relation on the street Nikki Oliver Lacy went along with a Madman a wild man out of control doesn't do anything gets him back like Weinberger back to the apartment same plan get some drugs does nothing on the street uses the drug gets him under strangles whether he was still using the strap that he brought specifically strangling people may recall he brought his scraps specifically strangled whether he used that on on at least you're not I don't recall Joseph Brady hopped again saw him down on the near west side waiting for a bus induces him to come from the near West Side to his apartment drugs him same pattern wait until they get in the house does that sound like a man out of control greater Loft and Lacy and Weinberger persuaded by a man out of control come on get serious what about the Tracy Edwards incident well I don't know quarrel with Tracy Edwards direct to testimony except for another thing when he said rocking and chanting and that wasn't in the police report and we know it wasn't and then even on the Donahue show and then what he said on the Donahue show wild exaggeration eight blocks we impeached him directly on that there weren't eight locks that was a four times exaggeration take the reality exaggerated four times Tracy Edwards said he had gone out to the apartment for a hundred dollars he was weighing whether he would pose for a hundred dollars now he's gonna do that for hundred dollars I asked him what'd you get paid to be on the Donahue show he said my lawyer handled that did you ask him no I never asked him come on come on Mr Tracy Edwards you pay a hundred bucks you need that money to come out here to pose he said he didn't think it was going to be a homosexual and if he doesn't know what he got for being on the Donahue show with the Geraldo show you know really I think that's uh to sued the city for million dollars over this incident Mr Tracy Edward says as he as he indicated to you and I I submit to you I'll take what he said on direct examination he didn't say anything about Rocky the other night yes we know a knife because LP he used a knife on LP then I'll buy what Tracy Edward said about the knife he used the knife on Earnest Miller to kill him and I'll buy what else he said on that did he watch The Exorcist film yes I'll buy the elf he said that he threatened right then I'll buy what Edward said did he threaten Edwards I'll buy what Edward said but not the other stuff not the rocking and the chanting I think I submit to you Tracy Edwards stands impeached by a number of grounds but in speaking on the stop trying I said to Dr Berlin I asked him from John Hopkins materials I said admit I asked him is it is this in the materials for the Johns Hopkins Hospital I quoted the following admittedly sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a person is trying their best and failing or just not trying I said Doctor isn't that in the John Hopkins material for your clinic he said yes I wrote it here's a guy that said he quit trying quit trying and he wants you to say no responsibility sir just quit trying because you've got this thought this paraphilic thought so you can quit trying that's okay that's what you're being asked to buy there's much more I'd like to cover and I can't there are two things I have three minutes I'm going to speak to two things burden of proof I remind you I won't drive a nail in your ear I remind you the burden of proof is not mine I opened these remarks with that and I like one more thing and I'll close them with this and that is I don't have to prove he's saying the defendant has to prove that he is by a reasonable certainty by the greater weight of the credible evidence that he is insane I don't have to prove he's saying if they fail to prove that to you if you fail I don't know buddy I look at these doctors I don't know I don't know there or you might if you say say it's easy but if you don't know then they haven't met their burden to prove you don't vote to say as he's saying or not you vote to say has he proven to a reasonable certainty if he hasn't proven it to a reasonable certainty then you say no and the lawsuit is resolved anyway in terms finally caption this don't be fooled don't be fooled filed he fooled Dr Olson and he fooled others to get drugs to use to drug these people he fooled the police in bath Ohio he pulled the police and when he had his body in his car he fooled the West Allis Police and the flowers complaint he fooled the Milwaukee Police on the counteract simply some Dawn case and and uh he he uh in terms of the time the police came in looking for a dead body they remember broke into in the apartment building broke into a deep set two doors down broke in because Mr sofa thought there was a dead body someone had died they hit the wrong apartment that was a mistake as well I went down to find I want to read feed from a transcript of May 23 1989 when the defendant was being sentenced on his sexual assault of Connor of uh of ss the sexual assault of SS and that's been quoted and I'm going to read it to you again this is the defendant now at his sentencing on the SS the SS incident the prosecution has raised very serious charges against me and I can understand why what I've done is very serious I never meant to give anyone the impression that I thought otherwise I've never been in this fishing position before nothing this awful this is a nightmare come through for me if anything would shock me out of my past Behavior patterns it's this he's meanwhile killed doc stator doc stator uh Mr Guerrero and Mr Sears and he's now talking before the court this is a nightmare come true for me if anything would shock me out of my best behavior patterns it's this the one thing I have in my mind that is stable and that gives me some source of pride is my job I've come very close to losing it because of my actions which I take full responsibility for I'm the one to blame for all this what I've done is cut both ways it's hurt the victim and it's hurt me it's a no-win situation all I can do is beg you please spare my job please give me a chance to show that I can that I can tread the straight and narrow and not get involved in any situation like this ever again I would only ask I beg you please don't destroy my life I know I deserve a great deal of punishment I'm not trying to elicit your sympathy but I would ask you please please don't wipe me out completely and please listen to this the court do you have relationships with adult males dependent Mr Donner I have had in the past not recently this enticing a child was the climax of my idiocy it's just it's going to destroy me I'm afraid this one incident I don't know what in the world I was thinking when I did it I know I was under the influence catch this catch this line as far as purposely drugging him that was never my intention I've been taking sleeping pills because I worked third shift for several years now I can take I take quite a few of them because I built up a tolerance to them and it was never my intention to purposely drug you I wouldn't have offered him money if I had planned on drugging him but nevertheless I'm not trying to excuse that ladies and gentlemen he's fooled a lot of people including the court that gave a Year's probation five years probation one year at the house of correction please please don't let this murderous killer fool you with this defense that Dr Berlin the special defense of Dr Berlin decent man but off the beaten path in terms of forensic psychiatry I close with this quote from the confession officers asking about police officers are there this officer asked what the reason for the murders was and Jeffrey L Dahmer replied my own warped selfish desire for self-gratification this officer asked a second time about the reason for the murders and he again replied my own selfish desire for self-gratification I must rest now Mr Boyle as his proper because he cares the burden to proved will make his final argument to you he is a honorable man he is very persuasive he is effective and he is competent as he argued earlier do not confuse him with the defendant the defendant is on trial not Mr Boyle keep that in mind I won't have a chance to answer again please keep in mind all the evidence and weigh it carefully when you make this decision thank you very very much you would like a break Mr boy it'll be a short one then courts in recess

Channel: COURT TV

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Keywords: True Crime, court tv, court tv full trials, court tv live, court tv live stream, court tv trials, law and crime, live court cam, live court cases, live court trials, live court tv, live court tv full trials, jeffrey dahmer, jeffrey dahmer victims, jeffrey dahmer trial 1992, jeffrey dahmer court, serial killer, jeffrey dahmer trial, wi v jeffrey dahmer, jeffrey dahmer serial killer, dahmer victims, jeffrey dahmer trailer, dahmer victim escape, trials on demand court tv

Id: s4eBJkjoh10

Length: 128min 47sec (7727 seconds)

Published: Sat Sep 24 2022