WI v. Ezra McCandless (2019): Ex-Boyfriend Jason Mengal Testifies, Pt. 1

Mr mangle can you please State your full name and spell both your first and last name for the court reporter please uh Jason Le me n g l it's Jason Lee mangle yes Rogers um where do you work at at the moment I've uh was working for FedEx but I'm going on a deployment to the Ukraine so the Army own currently taking a Le I took the month off okay yeah um and you said you're going to on a deployment to Ukraine what's your military status uh I'm on title 10 right now I believe uh are you a medic in the military Roger yeah and just because I don't use Roger in my normal course of course of work that's a yes correct yes thank you how long have you been in the military as a medic it's going on like 10 12 years is does that require some travel both in the United States as well as outside of the country it's mostly like State Side lately you know relief efforts and things like that um how old are you I am 35 April 684 we'll say that April 684 and what just what city or municipality are you initially from initially from Yes uh I guess you could say initially we could do Medford Wisconsin tlor County area and just uh generally what city do you live in in currently currently oakair County and in the time period from the summer of 2017 through March of 2018 were you living in the city of oair in what time frame uh September 2017 through March 2018 yes are you familiar with a a place racy coffee shop yes um is that a place that you have frequented as a customer oh yeah I quite frequently okay is that a place that you frequented as a customer from that same time period summer 2017 to March 2018 yeah about pretty much every day and if you could describe for the jury a little bit about um the the clientele at races and I'll ask you some specific question questions is it a is it more of an artsy place or is it more of a sports bar what's the the typical clientele it's kind of like an intersection of like all people so we have you know veterans we have motorcycle guys we have liberals we have Democrats Republicans like everybody it's kind of like a Melting Pot where everyone just goes and sits on the benches and they have conversations in an open forum and it's like a it's a very understanding place where people have freeth thinkers and no one there's nowhere course like for your thought is it uh by the name coffee Rey's coffee shop is is coffee the main product sold there I mean yeah they have coffee but there's also the nucleus which serves food but so is that connected to they're connected inside yeah would it be common or uncommon to for me to walk into races and see somebody with a a philosophy book or a journal no students go there a lot to study so so that would be common yeah very common is it a place that you would you would go to just grab a cup of coffee and head out like maybe at Starbucks or is it a place you'd go and like you said sit on the bench it's a place for procrastination I think a lot of people go there with intentions of like studying or but it's it's like a unified procrastination it's kind of like it makes it okay so we can indulge in our viices like people go there to smoke and they they really shouldn't be just you know cuz it's communal so like you all you know is it a lot of the the same regular customers and regular employees when you go there I mean there's there's like monthly people that come like once or twice a month but there's definitely daily like they call themselves or we call like races rats pretty much just like the races rats pretty much just like hanging out at the coffee shop um and you said smoke cigarettes does that happen out on the bench yeah the benches are kind of like that's for people like wax poetic and stuff like that the what I didn't what you said for which part you said yeah um the Benes are that's for people and like Wax poetic like just like they people will go on rants about Trump or they go on rants about anything just about anything like I talk a lot about bikes out there because I'm very Pro here I talk about what bicycling I talk a lot about bicycling out there cuz I'm very Pro I don't know I'm I'm an Enthusiast for cycling so so it's a place where if you're going to have a smoke you step outside sit on the bench and have a conversation yeah and everyone gives each other their fair you know order for for the conversation is it a would you describe so let speaking more of the regulars the dailies is it a close-knit group of people or there clicks sorry yeah exceptionally close like there's you know there's been a lot in people's lives at that place that uh people have experienced through each other so you know losses of friends family members you know people that move away marriages things like that like yeah it's uh it's always sad to see someone go somewhere else you know like someone moved to Portland or someone move you know is it like the the coffee cheers kind of place you could you could equivalate to that yeah now uh did you know Alexander Woodworth yeah he was a nighttime Barista mostly uh sometimes day time shifts but so you would you would see him um at races yeah I would get off work pretty late so a lot of times if I was coming back into town he would be running the night shift so and John Hansen was he somebody that you would see at races as well during that time period yeah we were very close um now Ezra MCAS are you familiar with her yes um is the person you know is Ezra MCAS in the courtroom today yes can you identify where she's located by just descri desing a general area and then an item of clothing please uh Pink Blazer uh to my left at the table to my am my right y I'd ask the record reflect identification of the defendant by this witness the record will reflect that the witness has identified Miss mcandless now was the defendant part of the races crowd yeah like I I met her there and she was sort of inducted into it through like she was away from her family so it was kind of like a close-knit family so um I think she just needed a strong Center for a little while and when what was your speaking of the the summer 2017 to um into early 2018 what was your relationship with the defendant uh I can't recall exactly when we started were you but were you dating during that General time period uh it was like right after o Clair's Festival kind of ran into her there in 2017 I believe so and I'm not familiar with the O Clair's Festival is that during the summer yeah I think it was during uh maybe August July somewhere around there and when does it sound accurate that February early February 2018 would have been the end of your relationship with the defendant sounds good I mean I'm not I wrote out a timeline at one point when I was I've repressed a lot of this stuff so at the times are like not very kosher with me anymore that sounds generally accurate though sounds generally accurate now um is there an age difference between you and the defendant yes I did not know as large when I started but and when you say you didn't know it was that large when you started did you think she was older than she actually is I thought she was older and there were like strange like you know I noticed a like on a on a random like I noticed a tassel like a high school tassel from like your your hat hanging in the car the first time we had met and then I was going to look and see what year that said and it was gone like the next time I met her so I was like hm like yeah like she just she I think it was like like she never mentioned her age but like I had heard like her life stories so like I was assuming at that age and if you're 35ish now would she be about 13 to 15 years younger yeah something like that okay now what city or municipality is the defendant from if she ever told you I think she resided well she was in Stanley uh I believe living with her mother and father but she was supposed to be I'm not sure if she was residing in uh Marinette or Marinette I'm not sure how to pronounce but originally her family's from the stanle area yeah I think she was going to college up there but she was back and looking at the time period when you first met so after the oair days and 2017 um can you describe or where did you first meet the defendant where did I first meet her yes I got a flat uh coming into town after work right by just Local Foods uh so I walked my bike back to races um Alex Woodworth was there he was working the night shift and um pounded on the door cuz he would lock up but a lot of times if like you made an effort he would just give you I mean they they toss most of the coffee out so you open the door said we're closed gave me a coffee in a too cup and then and where did you where did you go once he gave you the coffee I sat down on the bench and kind of let out a huff like a sigh and she popped up she was laying down on so like I was on like the uh furthest to the left bench she was on like the right bench laying down you me you say she she you're talking about the defendant yes okay um was she using the Wi-Fi there if you know yeah she was using the Wi-Fi and what do you know about um did the defendant have uh a cell phone that had service or did she need to be connected to Wi-Fi it's she didn't have service on her phone and El like I am I am saying she but at that moment when I when I met Ezra I did not know whether she was binary non-binary male female but I just I recognized a female and I think we actually maybe had a conversation about it at that time but okay so I don't know if there's a way that they would like me to refer to um pronoun we'll refer to the m mcka is the defendant and that works and I'll just that's how I'll refer to her so you grabbed a coffee from Alex Alex shut the door you sat down um and the defendant popped up off a different bench is that right yes and did you start talking yeah we talked I'm not entirely sure what we talked about but we talked for quite a while so drank some coffee smoked some cigarettes I assume I mean I was drinking coffee I don't think she had any with her but smoked smokes and I think she didn't actually smoke back then but she might have bummed one and then you just kind of hung out was it into the early morning or do you not remember no the sun wasn't coming up yet but I eventually went home and I didn't think we were going to ever see like we uh we talked a little bit about art and stuff so she had followed me on Instagram or we had like exchanged Instagram information and I thought that was kind of it because under my impression she was just there for the uh eclair festival and um I didn't expect to see her again and when was it in relation to to that first meeting that you started dating the defendant um I would say within a two weeks maybe I'm not I that's an approximation I have a date written down at some point but I think it was like in July at some point when we actually made it like we're going to be dating July 6th kind of makes sense to me for some reason that would be 2017 Roger yes yeah and did the defendant eventually move in with you she moved in um approximately how long after you started dating did she move in relatively quickly I mean I asked my roommate if it would be okay um things weren't so good on her home front it seemed like she was having trouble getting back into school um and I was like well if you want to work you want to pick up a job work here split when three ways that works for me you know are we you think it was couple weeks a month approximately after you first started dating it was fairly soon I mean Alex seemed very my my roommate Alex zinc seemed very surprised that it happened so fast but we all seem to like her and she seem to be a part of the group so and that brings me so there's Alexander Woodworth and then there's Alexander Alex zinc right yes my roommate at the time was Alexander zinc Alexander Woodworth two different people two different people yes Alex zinc is the last name z i n k yes okay um and did did he or during that time period did he have a girlfriend who also lived there uh Jenna I don't think was living there at the time uh Jenna was still I believe living with Elan and derer mallum I believe Elon and derer mallum I believe and Jenna is is that Jenna vanzan bandand y um if she wasn't living there did she eventually move in she eventually moved in yes that's Jenna yep okay so for a time it sounds like it was for sure you Alex and the defendant and then Jenna at some point moved we were all four residing there at one time I believe so were there certain arrangements made for for rent it was like a verbal contract and I mean it's not like I I don't know how you would put it it was more of a like me and Alex had the rent and then the U the idea was that she would find an occupation of some sort I think she started working at Joanne Fabrics and uh just like kicking what she could but we were all trying to help her get back into school or do something with her art because she was really like really involved in the art community and I mean it's not like we were going to like put her on the street so there was a a loose understanding the defendant would k kick in whether it was utilities or rent did did she ever kick in for those I think she did at one point for a little bit but I think times were kind of tough and she had to take part of it back you said she worked at Joan Fabrics do you know was that a full-time job or less than full-time I don't know if she was full um was quite a few hours because it was during the seasonal time so I'm not sure if she was hired on a seasonal help or if she was h on his uh part-time but was working like full-time hours but she was gone pretty often for like i' say about a month or so and she was like very optimistic like during that period um did you ever did you get a feel or did she ever tell you if she had lots of money or if she was struggling I kind of knew she was not doing the greatest but like she was always fairly charitable like around the holiday season she spent a lot more on us than I thought she probably should have which I mean was appreciated because it is the holidays but at the same time I was hoping she would look out for herself did did a Fant have a car she had a a silver impella um in that silver impella did it have some drawings on it yeah she painted it uh the top had a bird uh I think it's a shrike shrike kind a bike so I I want to focus on the time period of when the defendant moved in with you and Alex and then Jenna was there as well um was your relationship roommates or and I'm specifically talking about you and the defendant was it roommates or were you intimate what was the the general nature of the relationship it was intimate okay were you uh were you exclusive as far as you knew yeah that was exclusive so you weren't seeing anyone else no did you think she was seeing anyone else what time VAR are we talking about um let's say up until from the time she moved in until the end of 2017 I had say pretty confident okay confident that she wasn't seeing anyone that she wasn't seeing anyone um is did you see each other daily yeah I mean we live together uh in passing sometimes usually at the coffee shop usually you know at home depending on what day it was I mean I was working weird hours but um how would you communicate if you weren't just crossing paths or at the house together would you call text Instagram yeah I don't I don't know if she had a texting app at that point she had used a Text Now app or something at one point um but it was mostly just uh Facebook messenger and Instagram for the most part um without getting into your personal finances or anything like that was did you provide certain things for the defendant meaning food um money for gas anything like that judge I'm going to object I think this is really getting far a field their financial affairs I think money is an issue in this case I'm going to overrule you may you may answer go ahead I mean we provided so like I would say that it was it was becoming a little financially straining Cu uh me and Alex I didn't want it to ruin our friendship financially because he felt like she like with the situation I object to him testifying as to what Alex his roommate Alex felt I'll ask a followup question to clarify did you ever did you were you paying rent and um not getting contributions from the defendant yes I was I was paying rent but not getting contributions okay were you emotionally invested in each other yes very much did you say I love you back and forth often um did you have a certain tagline for Instagram messages or a tagline like a oh like a a thing that we would say often when you'd say goodbye was there anything specific you say Yes um um that you are loved and you are valued yes yep yep sorry and would that go back and forth between would say it to her she'd say it to you yes did you ever meet the defendant's family oh yeah I met them and a very auspicious occasion but yes um did that include her her mother her father grandparents yes she had a very large family I only realized that once I started meeting them all that there was you know a lot of personalities in the house and did she introduce you to them I I met them I met her mother initially at the clinic after a car accident and then I kind of through that met everybody else you know I was kind of I didn't know how to to meet them with the age Gap I didn't know if it would be awkward or weird so I wasn't opposed to it but it kind of came at a strange time and I she seemed to trust me quite a bit cuz they she stayed at the hospital finish up stuff and then I drove Ezra back to their place was it uh a relationship where you would go to family functions whether it was a holiday or a picnic from time to time I wasn't always privy to that kind of stuff cuz I'm not much of a holiday person but she would ask me and I was always like I was always welcomed you know whether it was Christmas Thanksgiving you know anything were you close enough that you had at least some of her family members phone numbers in your phone yes I had a few of them um what were some of the and we'll just briefly touch on this what were some of the things that you and the defendant would do in your free time you mentioned biking is that something that you sh yeah I bike a lot did did you and the defendant bike together oh yeah yeah I built her up a bike did you go hiking get coffee things like that oh hi can get coffee um photo walks once in a while I wasn't really into photography but she was she was very into photography and I assume were there some ups and downs in your relationship there always is yeah um but there were times when you certainly were happy oh yeah yeah if I may approach you may what's the number going to be let me show you what's marked as exhibit 684 um do you recognize the people in these photographs yeah that's me is that you and the defendant yes okay and that is that a series of photographs taken during your relationship yes okay um I would move exhibit 684 in evidence and ask for permission to publish briefly any objection no all right exhibit 284 will be received 684 684 if I said 284 I 684 now Mr mangle those are uh obviously photographs of one of the happy times right yeah just on the couch goofing around okay um during your relationship with the defendant was there ever talk about a future between the two of you yeah we mesed very well like I thought that there was probably some type of future and yeah like it was you know initially it was very good was there ever talk about potential marriage at some point I think we joked about it quite a bit like it was kind of like a running Trend I don't think we took it super super seriously but we had you know I I would like call her my wife once in a while just for fun she'd call me her husband in a flirtatious kind of yeah um did you ever talk about having uh having children together no okay um at some point early on in your relationship did the defendant get pregnant yes and that was um pregnant by you I I do not know like who's as far as as far as you know there's I mean yeah at the time I was like assuming that you were you were in a sexual relationship with her in that time period CHR okay and as far as you know it was a at that point it was a as far as I know it was exclusive at that point yes and was that in the September October time period in 2017 uh I believe so I think it was right before her birthday how is her when is her birthday if you remember October 6 okay I believe and it would have been 2017 because that's the time period that you were dating right we were yes we were dating um how did you find out that the defendant was pregnant well I kept trying to talk her to going into going into the clinic cuz she was not having so she was vomiting a lot she seemed really sick lethargic um she wasn't putting on any weight and I thought she had Mono or something so she she was like well I don't have insurance I don't have the money for this I don't want to go in I was like you need to go in because you know this is just like medic Jason talking like I'm worried for you you shouldn't be puking this much and um yeah we went in and she got uh one of the Baseline tests they do is a pregnancy test and she was told she was pregnant yes um did the defendant shortly thereafter have an abortion yes um did you and the defendant ever discuss whether or not she would have an abortion not really verbally it was kind of at the uh when they told her that she was pregnant I didn't say anything and she's asked for paperwork and I'm like to approach the bench so Mr mingle I'll I'll ask a a different question um same area so you is it fair that you didn't have a verbal much of a verbal conversation about whether or not the defendant would have an abortion i' I'm under the the uh the understand that it's the woman's choice so like when the actions were started I just Ste back and let what happened happened because so there wasn't a real conversation about no I wasn't going to like tell her what to do you certainly didn't pressure her to have one correct no um and the abortion that eventually happened in Minnesota is that right yes and um you drove her to the to the clinic or you went with her at least I went with her yes and you paid for the abortion yes and when you got to the clinic did she she told you that she didn't want you at the clinic correct yeah it was very strange cuz I didn't know I mean it was a very surreal situation for me in general but I thought that she would want me there for support but then she told me that she just wanted you know she didn't want me to see her like this or any of that so I I was understanding and I kind of just hopped on a bus and bummed around town so you just kind of rode the buses for Rod the buses bummed around yeah and eventually went back to the clinic yeah after I got a message from her um prior to the abortion you mentioned that your relationship was intimate was that um did intimacy change after the abortion yeah it was very very minimal um would you and I should have asked this earlier the the sleeping Arrangements up to that point when she first moved into the apartment did you share a room yep we shared a room and shared a bed yes um after the abortion did you end up sleeping on the couch or on the floor I slept on the couch quite a bit I just yeah it was just hard on me and would the defendant sleep in the bed yeah she would try to coax me upstairs and I just wasn't emotionally ready for it so the the couch was in a different room altogether downstairs yeah now shortly after or sometime within the months after um the abortion did you take a trip to California yeah I went with my friend Josh um and where in California did you go oh we flew into Detroit first then we went to San Francisco took the uh Redwood uh Coastal Transit uh up to Arcada it's like where the Redwoods are what was the or how long were you gone approximately about a week and what was the the purpose of the trip uh he had had some stressful things in his life at that moment and I had a lot of stress and I think you know we had talked about it at the coffee shop and Ezra was supportive she's like you know we've all been through a lot and the Redwoods is like a place of like growth and there's all this beauty and plants and stuff so maybe going there would help me reenter myself and being out in an environment besides oakair because oair is a great town to miss it's a good place to come home to sometimes you know it can get a little over a little too much sometimes now was that November December time period or uh it sounds about right okay I have dates written down somewhere but I've I've repressed a lot of this stuff and at some point you actually created a little bit of a timeline well I'll come back to that I want to go ahead a little bit to we'll talk about January into February of 2018 is there are you familiar with the the game Dungeons and Dragons oh yeah d and d and what you said D and D yeah D and D okay um if you could explain for the jury what just generally that is it's you roll dice it's kind of like a game a chance but like you get to I'm saying like a lot it's improv with your friends so it's you create a character you go to a place and someone runs the whole session and the rest of the players you know create like whatever a Bard or a cleric or something and like the whole the whole idea is to like get you into get you involved and like um Josh who ran the campaigns you know he would create these environments for your your personality your your character to like go through um so is it a just a a social like people getting together to play a board game kind of thing it's there's nothing like digital about it it's just you know a board or not really even a board it's just like a they they'll do like a map so we can draw out where we're doing things or what's going on and sometimes tokens um it's mostly just a time a chance to like play a make Le with your friends again so it's kind of fun was that a kind of a getaway for you yeah we did that on Monday nights was that a regular Monday night thing uh for quite a while yes yeah um did were there did the def ever get in the way of you going to those Monday night events there were times I mean I I thought I would help her so I kind of inducted her into the group to like you know kind of push Josh to like let her play too cuz I thought maybe a little fantasy and like something would would get her out of character in like like her life for a little while but uh she didn't like the numbers so much in the game and she didn't she always kind of felt like she wasn't doing as good or she couldn't pretend as good as people so um she stopped coming and then there were a few times where I don't know if she just didn't want me to go because she was worried I was going to talk bad about her or something but like she would find a reason to uh to try to make me stay and was there a regular reason that she would give you to try to make you stay she would get manic at sometimes and threaten like self harm so she would threaten self harm you said at at times yes um and would she tell you if she wanted you to come home or she wanted you to stay or what she wanted me to stay and I I felt really bad a lot of these times because it was like the one it always seemed to be the one Jud I'd like to approach the bench very short recess we're going to I'm sorry we're going to have you uh just step out for a few minutes uh All Rise all right um as long as we're on this um we just just had a sidebar so we'll clear this up right now um the uh defense objection is basically related to the Court's pre-trial ruling about lay opinions um and Mr mangles probably not aware of that necessarily um and uh just in his testimony here he he gave an opinion uh about Miss MOS being quote manic quote and then threatening self harm um so that's the nature of the objection so there was a suggestion that we do take a short recess with the jury so the court could give some instruction to Mr mangle um so Mr mangle um you can testify to your observations but not uh to your opinions okay okay R so um you just have to be very careful about that because sometimes people Witnesses tend to want to give an explanation before they give an answer so if you would do your best to just focus on the question that is asked asked of you and answer that question without giving a preface or an opinion uh you know about someone else there is a ruling that the court is not allowing any lay persons to Give opinions about uh mental health or diagnosis that sort of thing unless they have the credentials and they've been called as an expert so um however you are allowed to give your observations about things that happen things you see things you hear I mean if you're asked about those things okay okay but just keep in mind that a witness can only testify about things of their own personal knowledge with some some exception but uh anything else the council would ask that Mr mangle be instructed on not from the state judge all right is the defense satisfied with that instruction to Mr mangle one minute I'm just okay yeah I'd asked for his comment about her being maned to be stricken from the record and the to instruct that's frankly that's water uh over the dam at this point so that's going to stand as the defense that indicated in the sidebar they waved it up until now uh I don't believe the state was trying to elicit that opinion um and so I think saying something more to the jury is just going to draw more attention to it so I'm not going to say further but again um I understand you're medic um but you're not called to give a professional opinions and so again stick to observations and you know just focus on what is asked and try and limit your answer to what the attorney asks okay okay so let's bring the jury back in all right right thank you please be seated all right and Mr H you may continue your direct examination thank you Mr mangle I'm going to shift gears a little bit um you mentioned before that you know an individual John Hansen correct yes um how long have you known John Hansen probably about four or five years do you remember how you first met met him I believe it was actually at DND um Josh was running a campaign and I met him and his wife at the time would you consider yourselves and we'll we'll focus really on the summer 2017 into through March of 2018 um so the same kind of time frame we've been talking about already were you friends at that time yeah exceptionally close did you ever hang out with uh John Hansen as well as the defendant at the same time yeah on multiple occasions as far as you could tell we're the defendant and John Hansen friends or were they acquaintances they were friends they had interest and hobbies now was there a time period that you was there a date when you saw from the outside of your apartment John Hansen and the defendant inside of your apartment uh there were multiple times I guess but yeah there was one specific one of the was there an an I guess we'll call it an incident that you observed I it was it seemed like an incident but at the time I wasn't sure cuz so what let me just kind of walk through that one by one what did You observe from the outside of the apartment Well he kind of was like doing a choking style maneuver and she was trying to like break out of it and that was John was doing that to the defendant yes had you seen John do that to people before yeah it was kind of a thing like it was you know he has a military background as well and it was more like a I'm going to teach you how to do this in case an as salent tries to hurt you or something I didn't think any of that but I I finished my cigarette it wasn't of any warrant to me to rush in there it wasn't shocking to you no it wasn't shocking you didn't have the impression that the defendant was in any real danger no so you finished your cigarette and then you walked in do you remember what John did he seemed kind of shocked and then he left now I want to talk about February um do you remember so this is February 2018 do you remember being away on Military assignment during that time period yeah I believe so um do you remember approximately how long you were gone it was probably about 2 or 3 weeks uh do you was the defendant still living at your apartment in the beginning of February 2018 yes and was there did that change while I was gone yes and you've talked to a number of officers uh in preparation for or during this investigation is that correct oh yes my very and uh as far as and you've also had an opportunity to review some some of the transcripts of those recorded interviews yes and if I was able to show you a portion of a transcript would that help refresh your memory as to what dates you were actually gone in February 2018 I believe it would you're on may approach you may Council it's doj 4320 me to show you yes please all right I'm going to you can read as much of this as you need to but um I'll have you at some point focus in on the highlighted portion and don't tell me anything else just tell me when you've had a chance to to review that uh yeah I review it um does that refresh your recollection as to when you were gone yes it says and then um I'll take this away from you and if you could just tell me uh based on your refresh recollection what dates approximately you were gone in February 2018 in said 4th to the 14th I believe I I didn't know I have to read it sorry I was reading my own words I wasn't sure I was going to have to speak them again 05 to 13 okay and what were the dates that you were gone if you recall 05 to 14 so February 5th to February 14th 2018 yes um do you remember getting you said that the defendant living with you at the apartment changed while you were gone how did you become aware that that changed um we had a conversation one night she seemed kind of distant but I didn't think anything was too a mess um and the next morning she uh had messaged me that she needed to move out did that catch you off guard yeah yeah very do you remember if that was at the beginning or uh the end of that time you were gone it's kind of like in the middle of it I believe did the defendant actually move out of the apartment uh when I when I returned home there her stuff was gone so yes um so from the time period that the defendant moved out and I'll ask you some follow-up questions so I'm just looking for a whether or not you're aware are you aware of where so between the time period she moved out and then March 22nd which is the date we're really here for today um are you aware where she lived different different Lo had multiple residences okay did she did she are you aware that she lived with her mother for a time yes um did she tell you that yeah she had told me and are you did she tell you that she lived with her her dad Joe Shane or Joe Carlin for a while as well yes um did the defendant tell you that she was looking for an apartment in the olair area yeah I believe her um and Alex and and I can't remember Sarah I believe we're possibly going to get an apartment together so you said that the defendant and Alex are you talking about Alex Woodworth Alex Woodworth yes and Sarah uh Samantha does that sound right Samantha yes she's a teacher did the defendant ever talked to you about wanting to stay in oakair I think she wanted to stay in oair I didn't I don't think she wanted to move back to Stanley okay were there times during the time period that um when she moved out up until that March 22nd date that she stayed in a hotel yes how do you know that I was there as well did you get the hotel for her uh she didn't have any money so yes she didn't have money so yes you did I it was kind of a a safe haven she was not having a good her her home situation wasn't always optimal so so is it she judge I'm going to object to that okay again uh just reminder Mr just yes you don't have to explain just answer your questions so can I go ahead J yes go ahead um so she needed a place to stay and you were helping her out she just needed somewhere to stay was she welcome at your apartment anymore uh it Alex and Jenna had kind of voiced their opinion on it now I'm going to object to anything Alex and John told him is here okay I'll know uh sustain and hearsay grounds for any content so you staying at your apartment wasn't an option is that right yes it wasn't an option and I think you said this you stayed did you stay at the hotel with her on the nights that there was a hotel for her to stay at yes um during one of the times that you were at the hotel or a hotel Did You observe some messages on the defendant's phone yes and who were those messages if you know who were the messages between uh between her and John John Hansen John Hansen yes um your honor may I approach you may I'm going to show you what's marked as exhibit 473 first 474 [Applause] 475 and 476 so first of all if you go look at 473 do you recognize what that just a yes or no do you recognize what that document is yes I I recall this is that a a snapshot of some of the messages you saw on the defendants yeah I screenshotted them and sent them to my phone um so when you say screenshotted do you mean you used device you used multiple buttons and I think I think I did that or maybe I took a photo I can't recall for sure at this moment but um is that a a an accurate copy of the messages you remember seeing on the defendant's phone of just this first one or the entire just the first one first uh yes and then if I could have you look at exhibit 474 please okay and the same question do you recognize those those messages yes are those again messages between the defendant and John Hansen they are and are those messages that you snapshotted on her device and sent to you or took a picture with your device one of either of the I can't recall for sure which but I sent them to myself um and again is that an accurate copy of the messages that you remember seeing uh they are and the next exhibit I believe should be 475 is that correct yes um same question do you recognize those as being messages that you observed on the defendant's device um between the defendant and John Hansen yes and again you either captured you captured them somehow they captured them somehow gu and sent them to your phone or kept them on your phone yes um and those are accurate as you remember them yeah they haven't been altered or anything they're accurate and then the final one I believe is exhibit 476 are those again accurate uh messages between the defendant and John Hansen as you saw them on her device um while at the hotel in the time period we talked about yes and are those accurate as you recall them yeah as accurate as I can recall your honor i' move exhibits 473 through 476 in evidence and asked to publish to the jury by putting the all right previous objection noted preserve for the record Court will receive exhibits 473 2476 and may be published to the jury first is exhibit 473 and Mr mangle Dozer dated February 11th 2018 is that correct yeah I believe that's the Hun date um and from your recollection of these messages do you are you able to say which either the blue bubbles or the white bubbles are the defendant or John Hansen uh it's stressful looking for places that that would be as analyst okay so the blue would be the defendant yes and the white would be John Hansen yes okay and if you could just read um first the first message from the defendant I'm sorry from John Hansen at the top says nice correct correct and how does the defendant respond it's trustful looking for places so that would be nice to Rel and it actually says relive correct I think she might reli but yeah and then uh the next message down is again from the defendant what does that say judge I'm going to object to Mr I sustained again Mr mle just what you see what you think or interpret or think she meant but just What You observe okay Roger just keep going um if I could have you read the next message uh starting with working out working out again does really make you want to [ __ ] everything that's moved and then the next message again from the defendant says what might also be a predator and then the the last message there which is from John Hansen is cut off is that right yeah a body in motion wants to stay in motion okay and I'll show you exhibit 474 does the top message pick up where that message left off yes it does um if you could read the first blue message from the defendant are you going to pound this anytime soon and the message below that is what sorry I'm rude again from the defendant yes and the uh response from John Hansen uh not this week I have Moren it's all right to be blunt just got to be all right with it coming back your way um how familiar your good friends with John Hansen yes are you familiar with whether he has a child he does and what is that child's name Warren and the message below that from the defendant the final one on this screenshot is what just let me know when I get my next Inn out also hanging and doing art again would be nice because you're more than a good dick move on to exhibit 475 If You Could Read starting with the top message from in the blue from the defendant ah that should be nice he's such a cool kid and the response from John Hansen why thank you he's a good kid I'm looking forward to spending some dad time with him and the next message from the defendant that melts my heart I'd love to paint with him sometime and then it looks like there's a date that says February 12th 2018 at 7:40 p.m. correct correct and the next message from the defendant says what uh feeling like a snake today what's wriggling in your mind and there's another bubble with a date and time February 12th 2018 at 8:11 p.m. correct correct and what is the response from the def uh from John Hansen um I've been with Warren all day my mind is pretty [Applause] preoccupied let show you exhibit 476 starting at the top that's the message you just read correct correct and then there's another bubble that says February 12th 2018 at 8:58 p.m. correct correct Y and what is the the message underneath that from the defendant uh that's understandable dad time and then there's a bubble that says February 14th 2018 at 6:45 p.m. is that correct correct and the message below that from the defendant says what uh see something say nothing and drink to forget happy valentine and there's another bubble February 14th 2018 at 8:27 p.m. correct yes and there's a a message from John Hansen below that what does that say that's beautiful as Happy Valentine's uh Ezra Ezra and there's another bubble that says February 15th 2018 at 12:14 p.m. correct yes and the last message from the defendant to John Hansen says what I have a way with words John ah it's ah ah correct yeah ah now thank you was there a conversation that followed your discovery of those messages yeah we had a conversation and that was a conversation between you and the defendant between me and the defendant and between me and John bya telephone now let's start with your conversation between you and the defendant what did the defendant tell you about those messages she insisted that it was of a malicious manner like that it wasn't what I thought um did she tell you and I don't want you to assume I just want you to tell me what she told you if she did did she tell you um anything that explains what you mean when you say it was in a malicious manner not until we like not until we had actually left um the hotel because we went on on a drive but that's when she inferred to it being um it's like an assault said that John Hansen assaulted her yes um did she say whether that was before or after those messages that you saw did you say that before after I should rephrase that so the messages aren't from the date that you saw them are they no I think I I screenshotted them to forly own levity the and I didn't get that I screenshotted them for my own like levity to to save because I was thinking I was losing my mind in all these conversations with people so the messages say February 11th through 14th as the dates you didn't see them till a couple weeks later is that right yes until like later on so did the defendant tell you that the as she described it the assault of by John Hansen occurred uh before or after the dates on the messages I cannot recall I I know that the the assault happened while I was gone and at some point you actually created I created a timeline a bit of a timeline correct yeah and that was based on information that you knew at the time you created the timeline I was trying to make sense of it all did that have um a a date that you're aware of that you believed the assaults to have happened on yeah I don't think I put it in I I put it on the paperwork yes um and if I showed you that timeline that you created would that help refresh your recollection as to when that uh when you believe the assaults to have occurred yes your honor may approach you may Cil it's actually [Music] mark here you go oh Mr mangle does this look like the timeline that you created yes this is the one I gave to the police officers and I'm going to ask you just to review it and then I'll ask you some followup questions once you've had a chance to take a look and see if it refreshes your memory yeah it's the second hash mark on here okay so um you've had a chance to review that document does that refresh your recollection as when you believe assaults occurred 405 that was February 4th or 5th yes the hash mark um second hash mark on there and again we're talking about the 2018 time period right yes um so that would have been before the dates on the messages we looked at on the the screen correct yeah the uh the four and five is because the assault was there were two assaults apparent um one at night and one in the morning prior like afterwards so I was under the impression it was a she had been at his house and then the next day was also and let me we we walk through that in a second here the um you said that the conversation initially was between you and the defendant and then there was a phone call to John Hansen did you confront him about uh what the defendant was telling you yes and about what the messages showed yes okay and did John Hansen tell you that initially there there wasn't a sexual assault there wasn't a sexual encounter there was nothing at all you said that first and once I produced things the stories changed and I just didn't know who to trust okay and we'll just walk through this step by step here so you said that there were really two incidents and we based on your timeline we're looking at February 4th and February 5th What specifically did the defendant tell you happened during the February 4th incident the nighttime one yes uh they had all been drinking together um they were kind of giving her a hard time for not keeping up so she was trying to like drink with the boys I guess and uh and let me just stop you there who is they they were drinking together John and uh Ryan is that John's roommate at the time John's roommate yes um so John Ryan and the defendant were drinking right yes um what did the defendant tell you happen next uh she's stated that she was being taken upstairs well she had puked in the toilet quite a bit Ryan went to bed and she was taken upstairs and laid in bed um when she just assum like she assumed that she was being taken care of like she could just use the bed then did she tell you did the defendant tell you what uh she said John did next she said she felt her tights being pulled down at some point did the defant say that John had sex with her she says when she woke well when she woke up she said that something felt off she says a in the moment of it she was blacked out drunk pretty much so she and I just I didn't mean to interrupt I'm sorry that was information that she told you yeah that there was that a that a woman will know some things um if something has happened in the morning did the defendant tell you if John told her to go into another room I think she he believe I believe he asked her to going to a different room yes I can't recall though for sure okay now that was it sounds like a nighttime incident and then did the defendant tell you that if she stayed over at John's house that night she stayed over and he dropped her off in the morning I believe so on February 5th 2018 you referenced the second assault what specifically did the defendant tell you happened um on February 5th she said that he dropped her off um said that he needed like he played kind of koi to it that nothing had happened so he dropped her off to use the bathroom was that at dropped her off at the apartment that apartment yes okay you said John came in to use the bathroom that's what uh I believe she had stated and what did the defendant tell you happen next that there was a second assault at the apartment did the defendant tell you where that happened in the apartment on my bed our bed were you still in a dating relationship with the defendant at the time of that assault on February 4th yes as well as February 5th yes um did you have any artwork in your in your room at the apartment there's lots of pieces of Art in the apartment yeah was there a specific piece hanging over the bed yes there was um do you remember if that painting over the bed was there when the defendant and John Hansen were in there on February 5th 2018 I believe it would have been I was still there when I returned okay so it was there when you left and it was there when you returned uh do you know what eventually happened into that painting um I know she I I gave it back because I I felt weird it was had sentimental value and I didn't want it looming over my head but I think she traded I believe she traded it with uh Maxwell is that Max Martinson yes they did like an art swap now did you eventually learn of another sexual relationship that a Fant was involved in while you were in a dating relationship with her yes who did that involve with Alexander uh Woodworth do you remember approximately when you learned about that relationship I kind of I don't know I I kind of knew something was up at points but I didn't really finitely know until the night that I had a conversation with him with him and John Hansen at races so did you confront both of them at the same time yes I I had a conversation with them okay and I I'm sorry I didn't mean to use the word confront I should let you speak um how did you learn about how did you confirm that there was a relationship between a sexual relationship between the defendant and Alex Woodworth I just like the list I made I kept compiling things and it just fit so I kind of figured it out myself plus other other parties had elaborated to it on me did you ask the defendant about the relationship not immediately did you ask or tell Alex that you knew I I went out for a smoke with Alex and we had a a semi- Stern conversation about how you know I really loved and respected him and I couldn't understand why this was happening um and then I I did not know about the the other stuff yet but I mean did the defendant eventually tell you about the sexual relationship she had with Alex Woodworth yes um did she tell you initially what did she tell you about the first time that she was engaged in a sexual encounter with Alex Woodworth the first time like the date or the first time the encounter um the first time the first encounter when what did she tell you initially that was I believe while I was in the Redwoods there was a um um a date when they went on a a walk together and some things transpired when you say things transpired did the I don't want you to speculate but did the defendant tell you more about what that means well she had spent the night I believe at his apartment did the defendant tell you if she went to Alex Woodworth after the incident with John yes she she went to him for I guess for like a counsel or for help because she trusted him um did the defendant tell you what happened then that there was another situation um she put it as if he had taken like advantage of her her weakened State almost did and again I don't want you to make an inference or assume but did she did the defendant say whether or not there was a sexual encounter between her and Alex Woodworth that time I believe there was something coerced or some relations that were had is that how she described it I'm going to object and ask that you move to strike I believe something was coerced his belief is not relevant I can follow up with a clarifying question judge all right well did objections noted um again councelor when you make your objection please use the microphone oh I'm sorry it's shut off I mean I can hear you but I no I I I apologize I forgot public can hear you okay sure um all right well again Mr mangle again just stick to again what's asked and uh what was said to you I think in this line of questioning you pretty much have to stick with what uh M MCA said to you rather than how you interpreted it okay Roger okay yes did did the defendant tell you that Alex took advantage of her that's how she stated it now you eventually at some point you found out that the defendant and Alex Woodworth were involved in a relationship longer than just the February time period correct yeah I believe so um I I wrote the dates down when I that I wrote the dates down once again on might and was there a do you know what the Little Prince is it's a book I think it's a French book and does that little prince mean anything to you in terms of figuring out a time period that you believe the relationship between the defendant and Alex Woodworth existed I believe that was the first night she spent at his house they watched the movie and Donnie Darko and do you remember as you sit there today what the date that was negative I I just looked at it but I can't recall and if I showed you that same timeline that you mentioned would that help refresh your recollection yes um is this the same timeline that you previously looked at to refresh your recollection yes and by looking at that again would that help refresh your recollection as to The Little Prince yeah incident and um I'm going to take that away from you if that refresh refreshes your recollection what was the date of The Little Prince uh movie viewing with the defendant and Alex Woodworth uh November 7th and that's 2017 correct yes okay um and you just did did the defendant tell you eventually what had happened that night between the defendant and Alex Woodward that intercour headed happen all I me approach again you may I'm going to show you what's marked as exhibit 685 do you recognize what that is uh that's me um and what is is it a picture of a message yeah this is me in California um and that message does it reference The Little Prince yes it says was a great night I just I yeah it referen it references the little prints um and is that a conversation between you and the defendant yes does it have a date on it uh November 7 at 1:23 p.m. okay um your honor so is that an accurate copy of a conversation you and the defendant had on November 7th 2017 yes I move that exhibit into evidence and asked for permission to publish any objection NOP all right exhibit 6 is it 685 it and by the way you were correct the last one I had it wrong exhibit 685 uh is received you may publish so exhibit 685 and Mr mangle if you could read so the top bubble is that a message from the defendant to you yes and what does that say she's also suicidal so I've been really working hard to stay with her but hanging with sailor and her BF uh was great I got to watch The Little Prince uh with Alex so that's refreshing work tomorrow okay thank you do you recall where you were at the time that message was that conversation occurred I believe I was in San Francisco but I might have been already in Arcada Somewhere Out West in California at that time yeah uh did the defendant give you an explanation of how how the relationship between her and the and Alex Woodworth progressed like an explanation on how it happened yeah did she say that um did she say if she was yes how how did it happen they they were both going through some things in life and she had you know she had been through something traumatic he had been through traumatic things so they kind of bonded over like you know misery loves company kind of thing did the defendant ever and I'm right now I'll follow up with some questions by I responded Yes or No first of all did the defendant ever tell you about the the sexual encounters between the two negative at that time at any point uh not until I not until I confronted so that was after you learned after I learned yeah and what did the defendant tell you about the sexual encounters she had with the uh Alex Woodworth are we talking after I found out or before after you found out I'm sorry okay um she said that you know we didn't we didn't talk much until after all this stuff had transpired so um it was um different I guess I'm not sure what what tend like a tender term to use did the information that she provided to you was that after she moved out of your apartment the information provided yes after she was gone and did she say did the defendant tell you that things went too fast with Alex yeah they went pretty fast she said did she tell you that Alex would do certain things to her during sexual acts she mentioned things yes what did the defendant say I'm not entirely sure on the verbiage but um it was like choking or um boarding or something I believe it was called I can't really recall boarding I'm not sure if I recall what it was called but now that information that she told you that was after she had moved out of your apartment this this was way out this is very far out yes and was it also after you found out about her relationship with John Hansen yes and it was obviously after you had found out about her relationship with Alex Woodworth correct yes now up until that point that you found out about those relationships had she ever mentioned anything to you about that up until she mentioned had I that was a terrible question I'll rephrase that up until she up until you found out about the defendant's relationship with both Alex as well as John Hansen had she told you about the different sexual things Alex Woodworth did with her she didn't really elaborate I knew that something had happened but she didn't elaborate at some point did you clean up a bandage uh or clean up Alex woodworth's arm and put a bandage on I did how did that um was that because the defendant contacted you and said he needed to help Alex yeah and where did you go to help Alex uh his and Matt's house what did You observe on Alex that needed to be bandaged uh he had he hadn't dug very deep but he had slid his wrist did you clean out the the wound yeah I cleaned it out and I think I used some type of germa bond of a like a to seal it do you remember approximately and I I know this is a long time ago do you remember a month a general time frame when that happened I can't be sure do you remember telling officers that you thought it was around the time of like seasonal depression it was in the holiday season because I can't recall the exact date but the um the knife that he said he had slipped using um he was drinking that night he said he slipped and cut himself uh was a gift from a cooworker at work did you see the knife that he said he used I didn't see the knife that he said he used did the defendant tell you um what Alex told her about why he cut his wrist uh he had told her if she didn't leave him he was going to kill himself and when you say him is that you me yes did the defendant when she described her sexual relationship with Alex Woodworth did she describe it as consensual [Music] she said it was somewhat I don't know how to speculate on consent uh and I won't ask you to to to speculate let me ask a different question um did she ever tell you that the defendant I mean did the defendant ever tell you that Alex um took advantage of her there were times she said that he was aggressive and would kind of throw a tantrum almost did she ever tell you that he raped her she never made it sound like rape with Alex but she did with John yes and know I'm going to object to Leading El that be stricken sustained and leading did the defendant ever tell you um what how Alex described his feelings for the defendant he loved her very much that's what she said and I think they at one point they planned to maybe move out to Portland or something do you remember what what time period generally that was I mean it would have been initially after I found out about all the stuff because I confronted him and we had a slight conversation I mean I didn't like him but I still loved him I was angry and you're talking about Alex Woodworth yes so you you mentioned that you talked to both John as well as Alex once you found out about the relationships right yes I talked to John um where did that conversation happened me and John's um when you were in person not on the phone we talked about the phone oh yeah every at rees's was Alex there as well yes the the conversation between John Hansen and me and Alex was before the John days though I did not know about I didn't know about John's situation I I believe I don't know I did not know about John's situation until after the fact okay because I was only I I talked to John Hansen outside about did you know this like how come nobody told me like why is everyone just lying to me about Alex yes you know I I had I don't think I had uh any information on Hansen's transgression yet and then do you remember was there a an event that was going on the day that the confront not confrontation but the discussion with Alex occurred at reac's yeah there was a um an art uh Art Exhibit like a at shift the the bike coffee shop okay now at some point there was you talked with law enforcement about the John Hansen relationship with the defendant correct yes um and do you remember going over to Josh tanker's house yeah it was pretty high rate was that before after you found out about John before after I found out about John yeah did you go to Josh's house was that after I already knew about it when I went to Josh's and when you said you were pretty irate was that because you learned about John I learned about what had happened and I just wanted Josh to help me find like a center and like what do we do like what do we do for her was Josh a good friend of yours very good um did he call the police yeah he called the police and uh someone came over to take statements and did the defendant go to the police department if you know at some uh later date yes I was with her um do you remember if she went that night if you recall she might have went in for a kit but it was a couple days that like it had been so many days that I think they said it wouldn't have been plausible to find so that's just based on your recollection that's Bas my recollection okay um did you ever tell the defendant that she had to go tell the police I didn't want to force her but I the way I prefaced it was you can't if this if this assault happened you just because there's a chance that um they won't find evidence on you it'll put someone on the radar for future and it's not about it's not about an assault that happened to you it's for the next girl so I I kind of tried to I wouldn't say I tried to coach her but I just tried to like show her the humanity and it be like if this if this happened you you need to report this did you tell her what to say no I didn't coach her at all did you ever tell her to lie no so after you found out about Alex and the defendant and John and the defendant I assume you said races is a pretty tight-knit group yeah did people at races find out yeah everyone knew did they talk about it it was kind of hush like I mean it was like Snickers and stuff like that you know people would you know sidebar comments and whatnot did the defendant ever talk to you about whether or not she cared that people knew about the relationships or about let me rephrase that did she ever talk to you about people talking about her at races she didn't like it so she knew it was happening yeah people were being yeah she knew it was happening at some point were you alerted that there was a message in the bathroom at races yes what was that message it was like black ink and then and her number did you see it yourself I saw it myself at one point and took a photo I wrote over it what did you write over it um a conversation that um we had had a conversation um and her father uh Joe had told her like Life Starts Now like she was in the process of getting another job she was going in on I think it was a Friday for a TV test to be read she was going to pick up scrubs so things were things were things were going good like it was just like you don't have to live in the past just CU these bad things happen Life Starts Now you took a picture of the the message yeah did you send it to the defendant I sent it to her okay your honor may I approach you may Mr mangle is that the me is that the photograph of the message on the board yeah is that an an accurate picture I mean it's it's a picture of it I'm as you recall it as I recall it yes i' move exhibit 479 into evidence any objection no all right exhibit 479 will be received and without putting it on the screen it said the words [ __ ] me and then the number you knew to be associated with the the defendant correct with her uh her calling app okay so that was number that maybe it wasn't her phone but it was an app that she had she had an app on on her iPhone yes or iPod I'm sorry that exhibit number is 479 yes so it's not part of 465 no okay thank [Applause] you want to find me approach again you may and uh just uh how long are you going to go yet with direct it's going to be a while still okay I think this is a good time to take a resting Break um so uh we'll recess for how much time is uh we'll give you 10 minutes all right and uh well how I was just asked the bay how how much time do you think the jury would need 10 minutes 10 enough time okay so 10 minutes we'll uh be in recess until uh 3:42 on that clock I'm going to show you what's marked as exhibit 677 and without talking about the contents I'll just have you look and see if you recognize what is on the front yes and then if you could look and see if you recognize what is on the back yes and I'm going to ask you some follow-up questions about exhibit 677 um without talking about the content I'll just ask you straight out is that a letter that you received uh yes that is the letter I received and who gave you that letter so that was written by Jenna Jenna vanaand yes so Alex's roommate and when she gave the letter to you Alex girlfriend I'm I'm sorry your roommate Alex's girlfriend and that would be sink correct okay and when you received this letter did you jot some things down on the back that was like my rough outline of the timeline so you've already refreshed your recollection with a timeline of events as it relates to different time periods related to this case correct this was before the the previous one I I viewed but yeah this was like my rough understanding because I was asking questions about it now if you recall what were you what were you doing when this letter was given to you I was asleep and and what caused you to be asleep I was drunk you were drunk yes and do you remember what general time frame this was probably pretty late at night we had come home from the bar me and Jenna okay and what what date or part of month if you recall I can't really speculate I can't remember exactly when it was very close to um the yeah Alex's death Alex's death yes um so if Alex died on the 22nd of March 2018 would it have been a couple days before that whenever the phone call um between me and okay so there was a phone call that led to this letter yeah I hung up I didn't want to talk anymore and who is the phone call between you and who it was between me and Ezra and then after I hung up she called Jenna and talked with Jenna okay and so late at night you were drunk I'm sorry did you say the defendant called you or you called her I can't recall who called whom but yeah you ended up hanging up I ended up hanging up because I was just sick of it when you say sick of it what do you just briefly what do you referring to as it well I found out more information at the bar me and Jenna had you know without I'm sorry without going into the content of what you were told at the bar you found out some new information was that about Alex Woodworth and the defendant I found more yes okay was it information that was about their relationship I believe so and was it recent in time to the time you received the letter the time I received the letter was in the morning I think Jenna had Jenna had written it because Ezra had asked her to wake me but she said I wasn't going to wake up just personal knowledge I assume is so um did you end up talking to the defendant about this letter to Miss Mes yes and do you remember did you give this letter to her or just talk to her about it I think I gave it to her uh that was the that was the copy that was intended for me I believe the copy of the letter was intended for you yeah Miss VanZant I believe wrote two copies of that letter okay and did you unless he has personal knowledge of that okay sustain and personal knowledge did you talk to the defendant about the letter to yes I I did now I want to skip ahead to March 22nd 2018 the date of Alex woodworth's death um do you remember where you were that morning oh I woke up and went to do laundry so I was between the um the laundry met that burned down over on Water Street in it wasn't burned down at the time but the laundry mden races I was going back and forth um did you talk to the defendant that morning um by phone or text yeah we had talked and did the defendant tell you whether or not she was coming to oair that day no she hadn't mention anything did she tell you that she was in Stanley I believe she was at Joe's yes okay and Joe's would be Joe Carlin who lives in Stanley yes uh when you would talk to the defendant and she would be coming into town would she typically tell you what her plan was I mean usually she' let me know so we'd meet up and talk and make sure i' just like a wellness check you know make sure she's doing good so you were going back and forth between the dry cleaner and reac's did the defendant eventually show up at re's yeah I thought it was off cuz she wasn't supposed to be driving and let me just uh what time approximately was that if you recall I honestly don't recall morning time was morning morning um do you remember where you were when you first saw the defendant I was sitting on the bench I believe with Maxwell and a few of the other regulars the bench outside the bench outside races yes did you have without getting into the content any conversation with the defendant very brief we might have passed a couple Idle Words but not much it was I was more confused than I was like did the defendant uh and you eventually go into races maybe not together but not together I mean and did uh the defendant eventually leave with Max to go somewhere I mean I I I saw them leave together I was preoccupied with my with my laundry I was like well I got to bike back to the the laundry mag pick up my laundry switch it over and she said she was going to go trade some paintings but was like oh okay did you notice anything about the defendant's demeanor that caused you concern she was a little Fired Up Now by this point you've you had known the defendant for many months correct yeah um did you were you able to pick up on nonverbal cues yeah I'm very empathetic so I I feel things did you notice anything specific about her eyes they were there was intentions in them like she was I think she was angry about the the way people were treating her at the the coffee shop no judge I'm going to object to his opinion about how M MCAS felt he can relate what she said but otherwise this is purely speculation well uh I'm going to overrule on this I think we've covered this he can describe his observations um so let's stick to what uh Mr mangle observed Mr mangle you said you used the term fired up did that impression of the defendant come from what you observed in her expression and her eyes yeah I mean like throughout our relationship like there were times when she just and that and that it was it seemed like she was fired up yeah like not it didn't always mean negatively though she just like had you know okay did you um have a conversation recent to that date March 22nd 2018 about journals that the defendant was writing yeah she was talking this uh she was seeking help and uh for her mental health and and and did she tell you that she was journaling yes did she tell you what she was going to do with those journals she had mentioned wanting to get get her voice back and giving them possibly to the two um John Hansen and Alexander ww do you remember having a conversation on Instagram uh with the defendant about uh about journals yes and about her going and talking to Alex I believe yeah Alex you're on if I may approach you may I'm showing you what's marked as exhibit 465 have you seen that document before yeah I'm prey to this and is that a conversation you had between uh with the defendant yes and uh is that Instagram this is Instagram yes and having reviewed that already is that an accurate copy of the conversation as you recall it it's hard to read because it's the format of different but it's the conversation we had okay so the content is the content is there yeah I would move exhibit 465 in evidence and ask to publish the any objection um I previously noted a minor but no all right preserve for the record uh and U exhibit 465 will be received and you may publish Council are you starting with page 983 now it says 983 on top so I'm showing you exhibit 465 and you mentioned that the the format is off because the messages go backwards in time is backwards and upwards yes so the beginning of this conversation would actually start at the bottom of the last page is that your understanding yeah however was printed it would start at whatever page and work forward this is going to be with my dyslexia but okay I'll wing it we'll work through it I've got Pages let me just show you it's pages 9775 to 983 would you agree what's up pages on the top right corner Pages 975 yeah 7677 all the way up to 983 Roger you would agree yeah so I'm going to start by showing you the message on page number 983 three of exhibit 465 and I'll zoom in a bit here okay are you familiar with what UTC means what UTC in terms of time yeah I believe someone said it was a global time some is it your understanding that that's not central time no I think that's different than like what we would consider standard Central and the the date on these messages is March 12th 2018 do you see that yes I see that okay now I'm going to start with the the first message on the bottom which is March 12th 2018 at 12414 UTC time do you see that yes and now I'm going to go down to the text which says first of all um the conversations you're familiar with your Instagram tagline as well as the defendants correct correct and this one that you're viewing is uh the author is the defendant correct yes and it says that sounds lovely is that right yes that's correct and then I'm going to go up to the next message the author is again the defendant correct yes and the recipients are both it lists the defendant as well as you correct correct so the the text is a message from the defendant to you that says what uh not I much to distract and then moving to the next message again it's authored by this one's by you to the defendant correct that's for me yes and it says yeah Brit ended up at the Trap correct yes the next message actually I'm going to skip ahead to a few above the author I'm sorry you're looking at Orange uh no thank you the author is the defendant and you are one of the recipients correct yes and the message says from the defendant to you says Tuesday I plan on coming to town and doing an errand before I meet up with you correct correct now I'm going to move to page 982 but first of all on the top of page 983 the recipients listed are the defendant and you correct yes and then the bottom of page 982 is authored by the defendant and it says I mean you could honestly be in the car while I do it correct off the screen again I was way off the screen yeah there we go that was by who's who's the oh that was by her yes so the author is the defendant you're the recipient it says I mean you could honestly be in the car while I do it correct correct and she said again the next message wouldn't mind correct I believe that's well is that the sender or the receiver so the author is the defend cor and she says wouldn't mind correct correct the next one is authored by you to the defendant correct yes and it says what errand is that right that's correct the next one is Again by you to the defendant is that right yes that's from me and the text is the stuff from races or Robin thing question mark correct correct the next meth message is the defendant to you mhm and the text says Alex got me a little prince book I want to give it back and tell him off a little then walk away before he has a chance chance to talk then grab the racy stuff correct correct the next message is authored by the defendant you are one of the recipients correct correct and it says and be done with all that be done with that negativity correct correct the next message is authored by you y sent to the defendant and the text is thought you burned all that stuff correct correct so then the message on top here the recipients are you as well as the defendant correct correct then moving to the bottom of page 981 the author is the defendant correct correct and the text is found the Little Prince last night correct correct the next message is authored by the defendant sent to you m with the text being I burned hope against hope correct correct and is that a book I believe that was a book yes okay the next message authored by the defendant sent to you says kind of want my last word correct correct the next message authored by you to the defendant says why did he give you a kids book correct correct the next message authored by the defendant to you said he barely had the respect to talk to you I want to give him one last word he gave me it because I love foxes and the movie correct correct the next message authored by the defendant sent to you MH is it's one of my favorites because of Animation Styles correct correct the next message authored by the defendant to you MH is but I don't want that thing in my house correct correct and the top of this page the recipients for the next message are uh that's going to be us both again both of you are listed correct correct and then if we look at the bottom of page 980 the author is listed as you correct correct and the text says when did he do that correct yes the next message is authored by you sent to the defendant with the text I remember that in our room correct correct are you referring to the book The The Little Prince book yes so that was in your apartment yeah it was at our apartment at some point and the next message authored by you sent to the defendant said blue cover correct correct the next message authored by the defendant sent to you said he gave it to me a bit after Christmas said it was his way of being happy to have a new friend correct correct the next message sent by the defendant to you said yep correct yes the next message sent by you to the defendant said is Stars correct correct they're out of order in a way where I she's referring to I said blue she said yep Stars yep you know so the conversation is overlapping conversation is kind of overlapping but it's talking about the book the next message at least on on this sheet author the defendant to you says I want to get rid that that that thing it just pisses me off correct correct the next message has both of you listed as recipients and we'll move to the bottom of page 979 the author is listed as the defendant correct yes and it says I bet it was his actual way of being like a I'm Ezra's friend I know they like this and it will make them think I'm actually not trash correct correct the next message authored by the defendant to you said everything is all garbage to me now correct correct the next message authored by the defendant to you says just trash correct correct the next message authored by the defendant to you says useless paper and trash correct correct the next message authored by you to the defendant yes says well I don't have to be there for all this correct correct the next message authored by the defendant to you says kind of want you to be but that's selfish aha correct correct the next message authored by you to the defendant says I don't want anything to do with him correct correct and the the last message on the top of this page is off it's recipients both you and the defendant correct correct and going to the bottom of the next page 978 the author is the defendant correct off the screen again yeah it's off the screen it's the author is the defendant correct correct and it says I can do it alone correct correct the next message is the uh defendant I'm sorry you yeah to the defendant and it says I cleaned him up correct correct the next message is the defendant to you stating I'm afraid I might punch him though if he gives me a look correct correct the next message says it's authored by you to the defendant when he pretended to off himself correct correct was that in reference to when you bandaged his arm yeah and we're talking all these messages are talking to is you're understand talking about Alex Woodworth correct the next me message from you to the defendant says my kindness is not weakness correct correct the next message from you to the defendant says when someone hurts me badly I'm done correct correct the next message from the defendant to you says to be honest I might punch him in the face if he do e his sarcastic your dumb voice correct correct the next message says it's authored by the defendant sent to you we'll move to the bottom of page 977 it says I just want to give it back say stay out of my life and tell him how much I regret meeting him correct correct and that was the defendant to you yes the next message authored by the defendant sent to you says then walk away and never see his face again correct correct the next message by the defendant to you says I'll stay composed correct correct the next message authored by you to the defendant says he's going to want to talk correct correct the next message sent by you to the defendant says or laugh at you or IDK correct correct the next message sent by the defendant to you says you know my sass when I'm real mad correct correct the next message from the defendant to you says how my voice gets and how fast I talk correct correct the next message on the top we don't have the text yet but the author is the defendant you are the recipient correct cor we move to the bottom of page 9 [Applause] 76 it says I doubt he will get in a word correct correct from her to him from her to you from her her to be yes the next message from the defendant to you says he's scared of me correct correct the next message from the defendant to you says he expects me to be weak right now correct correct the next message from the from you to the defendant says you talk like r i capital r i c an or however that's spelled correct correct what is what did you mean in that what were you referring to with the r i an is that Rin yeah it was a she would speak super fast and when she got sassy and what does what does ran mean I don't know I think it's a derogatory term but I mean I didn't realize it at the time okay and above that we have uh is that something that you had discussed with her in the past used that term yeah it was like a joke okay between the two of you sort of and above that we have capital a h a h h a ha a that was from the defendant to you correct correct the next message from the defendant to you says yes Han h n correct correct the next message from you to the defendant says don't use racial words in text ever correct correct and is that you basically saying to yourself I shouldn't have put ran in this message that was her informing me that it was racist uh but it's it's from you to her correct oh oh I guess it is I mean if you recall were you referring to your use of the word ran I might have been okay I'm confused about that okay but there's no other explanation contain there's no other explanation based on the data up there okay yeah uh the next message from you to the defendant says so yeah LOL correct [Applause] correct we'll move to the bottom of page 975 which you'll be happy to hear is the last page I'm off the screen we've got author you to the defendant and it was some sort of link it appears correct yeah I think it was an image or something okay and then we have author the defendant to you and it says I just don't think he deserves the satisfaction of thinking I'm weak right now and that I'm alone and lesser I'm not a toy I will not just let his [ __ ] stay at my house and I will not let anything poison my mind anymore correct correct the next message message uh seems to move on it's a message from her to you and it says I love that song correct correct okay um all of these messages are they referring to Alex Woodworth if you know yes done with that for right now thank [Applause] you um was there did you have a conversation with the defendant about what you thought how you thought she should deliver uh journals that she was writing to Alex and or John well email or send it through the mail it's like the modern era is that what you suggested to her I mean she said that she wanted to deliver them herself but I said you don't you know unless you have to keep the piece or somebody there you should just send them like it's the modern era and without going into why were you concerned about um her delivering those in in person I was concerned for all parties involved okay did the defendant send you a copy of her journals yes she sent me was that by electronic me sending I believe she sent into my gmail okay do you remember when that was in relation to Alex's death there the first or the second there were two I believe um two let's start with the first when did she send that if you recall I wouldn't know an exact date but it was a couple days before I'm assuming like a week maybe within a week of Alex's death I'd have to refresh my memory on is that your best recollection that's my best recol ction um what about the second Journal do you remember when she sent that to you I believe it was like a night or so before me and Julia had both received it the same night judge I object to him saying he unless Miss MCAS told him she already sent to Julia post unless it's fine but otherwise I don't know if he has personal knowledge sine again your microphone is not on um so I don't know if everybody heard that objection but uh again this is a personal knowledge objection and so just again what you know personally did the defendant tell you if she sent the journals electronically to anyone else yes who did she say she sent the journals to to Julia is that her friend Julia post yes um once did you eventually on March 2 2018 go looking for the defendant the day of the the day that you saw her at reac's yes um why did you go looking for the defendant something did not seem right where did you go initially if you recall initially I started just biking around trying to think like well maybe she went to John's house but I realized it was pretty far out and the roads are pretty nasty so I thought I'll go to Alex's first and then uh go out of town afterwards and when you went to Alex's what did you see from the outside I saw her car idling at his in his driveway was there anybody in the car negative but obviously the keys were inside if it was idling yeah it was idling what did you do well I sat across at the uh there's like a school across the way I sat there parked my bike because I just was like well everything's probably fine everything's probably fine you know I just I wasn't sure for both parties involved that they should be alone uh did you eventually go in the car and take the keys out I went in the car and turned the the car off yes I at that time I noticed that note that was on the passenger seat I'm sorry he dropped his voice and I couldn't hear him at that time I noticed the note that he had showed me earlier on the passenger seat was that the note from Jenna yes um do you know how that note got there I I had given it to azra I believe was there anybody else in or around the car aside from you in that area no I I looked around I didn't see anybody um it was that was about it you know I just I just felt something was not right cuz it and did you knock on the door to the house not initially um I waited for quite a while I was like maybe the Ring's fine they'll just come out but after about 40 minutes or so I just had an uneasy feeling so I approached the door and my cell phone went off and I had a very um noticeable ringtone I heard her call down just let him help you um her recognizing my my phone so I was like oh God he's hurting himself again so I just ran up the stairs um and when you heard someone say just let him help you were you referring to the def defendant no that's the person who said that I it was Ezra's voice yes so you went into the house yes I was I was in the house you went upstairs yes um did you go into a room yeah on the right hand side it was his bedroom that was Alex's room I believe so do you remember if the door was open or closed when you went upstairs slightly a jar who was inside uh Ezra and Alexander and for these purposes when we say Alex or Alexander we're talking about Woodworth worth Roger yes um where was Alex located in the room if you recall I believe he was closer to the window and she was closer to the door were they standing or sitting if you remember sitting on theair the bed did you ask if everyone was all right yeah it was very like you guys scared the [ __ ] out of me you know I was like I was worried you know did the defendants say she was all right they they both you know there had been when I was outside and I had heard that just let him help you there was bickering going on so I was under the impression that something she wasn't being allowed to leave so I was scared for him I was scared for her but they seemed like oddly calm when you got up there did the defendant say he won't let me leave no she didn't say anything like that did she say she wanted to leave no did she say help me Jason negative did she say he's trying to hurt me no did you suggest that they go somewhere else to talk yeah I told them I I would wait outside and then that they should probably go to a venue of some sort to have such delicate conversations did the police arrive yes the police arrived did you speak with them I spoke I spoke with a couple cops at the time did uh when the police arrived were you exiting the house I think I was just walking out cuz I told them if if anything arai was going to happen they could make a noise like you know he had plenty of books throw a book against the wall you know whatever and I'll come back in you said that to the defendant and Alex to both of them both parties but they they wanted to continue the conversation did the defendant and Alex eventually come outside as well after I spoke with law enforcement um about the time law enforcement went to enter the house they were both exiting where did where did uh the defendant go when she exited the house when she exited the house I think she came over to the the driver's side of her car I believe and where did Alex eventually go when he came out of the house the passenger side did law enforcement talk with them as well they talked with them um did law enforcement eventually leave yes and did the defendant and Alex eventually leave yeah we had a conversation and they both left what was your impression from that conversation as to where they were going well we we had all talked a little bit and said you know it probably makes sense to go someplace public I mean um so they they agreed to go to a coffee shop it sounded like they didn't want to air their dirty laundry at like so they were going to go someplace else so I was I I understood that I saw I was like yeah that it's probably a tender place to go um did they eventually did you see them leave I saw them drive away in Ezra's in the defendant's car were they driving were they leaving in the defendant's car yes and who was driving if you remember Ezra was driving at that time Alex was in the front passenger seat yes did you eventually return to races yeah I went back to races um did you eventually go or did you eventually send some messages via Instagram to the defendant yeah I still had an uneasy feelings spaming around quite a bit did did the defendant respond to any of those messages uh without Wi-Fi she wasn't able to respond I'm assuming CU her phone needed a Wi-Fi to send messages back so you didn't receive any messages in response it didn't show like scene or anything did you eventually get on your bike and go looking for Alex and the defendant yeah I started to freak out when um me and Joe had talked about her she was supposed to get the no I object we're just GNA I'll just ask you questions about what you saw um and what you know not from other people so did you then go to eventually end up at the O Clair Police Department yes and talk to some officers yes did you eventually find find out that the defendant had been located eventually I talked to an officer from dun County did you had you been in the defendants V Le uh in the days prior to Alex's death yes do you remember ever looking for do you remember ever seeing a knife I don't recall there being a knife in the Center Council I had I had given her a it was a National Guard one with a broken clasp at one point I had given you know she had I think Alexander my Alexander zinc had given her one at one point2 but um the the uh the knife that you gave her was it labeled somehow labeled yeah did it have any markings on it that were just distinguishable you said Wisconsin National Guard was that yeah I think on the blade it would have said Wisconsin Army National Guard or something to that to that do you remember in the days leading up to um you said you were in her in the defendant's vehicle do remember looking for a knife in the vehicle yeah at one point she used to always have one in the center counil and I forget what I needed to cut but I was going to cut like a I think I had a shoelace that broke or something I was going to cut it off and retie it and uh I couldn't find a knife I think you said that was within a few days prior to uh March 22nd 2018 yes you looked but you couldn't find a knife yeah there it the one that I had given her had usually resided inside that you may approach make I'm going to show you what's marked as exhibit 233 is that the knife that you gave her negative is that a knife that you have ever seen in the defendant's vehicle no I've never seen that one and just so the jury can understand that there's some markings that says EMT on that knife correct yes I'm going to show you um Madam clerk if I could have the screen with the computer I'm showing you what's marked as exhibit 135 it's already been received into evidence is that the knife or at least consistent with the knife that you gave the defendant yeah I mean it has the broken clas where would hooked to your belt so I'm assuming it's probably the same every have you repeat that oh sorry it has the same where that little the three Allen parts are that's where the class they used to be where it would hook onto my belt I'm assuming it's that's where the other one was broken so and there's a marking it looks like it says Wisconsin is that consistent with the knife you gave her that says Wisconsin National Guard yeah now between the time that the defendant moved out of your apartment in February of 2018 and up to March 22nd 2018 the date of Alex woodworth's death did you continue to have regular contact with the defendant yes yeah um how frequently would you communicate with the defendant pretty often like I would say daily we were still friends I'm I still worried about her did you continue before you talked about I love you and you are valued and things like that did you continue to say those things to each other of course of course yeah she was still very important there people are important to me even while broken up did you continue to uh engage in a sexual relationship during that same time period with the defendant there were moments of weakness yes were there messages if you recall where the defendant expressed her feelings for you yes did she tell you that she loved you yes did she tell you that she missed you yes did she tell you how much it hurt to be without you yes did she tell you how much she wanted to be with you yes did she ever talk about uh a future together with you yeah anything else nothing further thank you all right um who is going to do cross- examination M fishy I know you probably all set to go how long do you believe cross-examination would take I think we should start cross-examination tomorrow morning okay well I'm thinking the same thing I know I have some jurors that have to be somewhere uh and uh if we started now we wouldn't finish this witness in time there's no way so um all right well ladies and gentlemen we are going to recess tomorrow um and uh Mr mangle you'll have to come back tomorrow morning uh we are going to begin testimony at 8:30 a.m. so just uh again you've all been great and being on time um and uh I just want to remind you of the instruction that I read yesterday I think I'll read it every other day but I just want to remind you uh to not listen uh to anything about this case no individuals no media uh no radio TV internet social media uh do not allow yourselves to be uh exposed to any information about this case and uh don't discuss the case with anyone uh even amongst other jurors until this case is uh finally given to you and you've heard all of the evidence and been instructed by the court uh do not do any research independently into the public records involving any of the parties do not visit any scenes um and uh that's a brief summary um and everybody has been instructed on that I'll give you the formal instruction again tomorrow but I'm not going to make you go through that at this point so okay all rise all right um Mr mangle you understand that again you are under subpoena as I understand it and you've been asked questions have you been advised of the exclusion uh order not to discuss your testimony with any other persons yes I understand uh okay so I don't want you uh talking to anybody about this case or discussing it with any with anyone fr frankly um and uh it includes you know not to watch any coverage about the case so that you might see any Witnesses or what their testimony might be understood yes okay uh anything else that Council would like uh to be addressed with Mr mangle before we adjourn for the day judge you said 8:30 will start up so I just asked that he be here at 8:15 at the latest tomorrow Roger yep all right that's what time we we hope to then bring the jury in and begin uh testimon is at 8:30 tomorrow morning okay then you may step down and be excused for the day sir and uh you're good to go thank you all right is there uh anything that either Council one thing I think we should probably mention your honor uh and yesterday afternoon after we were done with court uh believe it was detective proc received a message a call from detective Beardsley who was one of our Witnesses earlier who had been excused uh and was advised that he was excused he wouldn't be recalled uh he received a subpoena yesterday from the defense which is certainly perfectly fine but we just need to advise the court and councel that after he was excused he did watch some of the Court TV uh coverage uh I believe he thought he watched the part with Detective 's testimony so just so the court and Council are aware of that all right anything that uh defense Council would like to put on the record at this point about that or about anything about anything before we uh journ for the the evening just um sorting out Witnesses for tomorrow as well as future um scheduling the defense would just like to take that up all right um and miss vishy uh how long do you anticipate cross examination may be you know it's really hard to say because if he says yes to everything that I say it'll be 45 minutes but it it could go longer I'm going to there's some things he said that you know there's some prior inconsistent statements and you never know how people react to that and there's some other selections from Instagram I'm going to use so let's I don't know if it's going to be 2 hours 1 hour it's really hard for me to say I I mean he's a long he's a much longer witness than what I anticipated I really thought we'd be done with him all together today all right and so uh does the state have a rough idea after Mr mangle uh we are anticipating uh Matthew Shriner who will be relatively brief uh Court Fox we're our direct of him is going to be relatively brief uh I would say probably 15 minutes for each one of those for direct uh Michelle Wright uh will be relatively brief it's basically identifying a few things that she created uh such as the association chart the maps that we've already seen uh at least briefly with a couple of witnesses uh and then detective proc Jen oh and Jenna Van van desand and she will be about how long for Direct about 20 minutes for direct and then it'll be detective proc it'll take a little while and we intend to play the two interviews that he conducted of the defendant which total up to just shy of two hours total all right do you can I ask some follow questions yes go ahead do you intend to play the uh interview or asking questions about uh his interview of M MCAS about the John Hansen matter I'm I'm going to ask him a very few questions about that uh not more than a half a dozen and uh I I'd be happy to uh advise councel I'll send uh I can uh advise councel in the morning the exact areas that we intend to cover and it's it's very very limited as to that we do not intend to play that interview uh in whole or in part do you object to our I don't know that I'm going to but just we if we know we have to sort it out do you object to our uh asking to play the uh recording uh based upon the rule of completeness yes we will as far as putting the whole thing as I say our interview is going to be extraordinarily brief as it relates to that I'm going to ask about probably two or three two three four things about that interview and that's it and so yes I will object to playing the whole interview under the rule of completeness because uh as Eugenio makes clear and we mentioned this morning the rule of completeness is not an open door for everything uh just because you talk about it it's only those things that are necessary to prevent Distortion uh or unfairness and they the rule of completeness only allows in things that are related to or would distort uh the truth if you don't allow them to go into it so if I talk about a couple areas you can't talk about something that's I can't introduce something that's totally unrelated to the areas that I'm talking about no we're aware of the law I was just wanting to know so we can be prepared of to make our arguments tomorrow when that comes up um do you expect that you will be finished with Detective proc uh tomorrow do you think expect my cross to begin tomorrow I would certainly hope that we will be done with Detective COC yet tomorrow yes okay is you do you intend to then have witnesses on Friday I'm just trying to line up our witnesses to I am unless detective PR goes into Friday which I'm hoping he does not know detective proc will be the last witness and I will at this point in time your honor and on the record advise the areas that I intend to cover with uh detective proc about the John Hansen uh interview uh number one uh that uh the defendant deleted all of her messages between herself and John Hansen uh number two that she stated she was still in love with uh Jason mangle uh number three that she said she had had sex with Alex Woodworth uh and never said that it was forced uh or that the consent or the sex was in any way nonconsensual uh and that she told uh detective PR that uh at the time of the incident at Hansen it was her uh Mr Hansen and Mr Hansen's roommate that were present that's it and I would expect that uh you know again there is many many more things in that interview uh I don't have a problem with anything relating to those but uh anything else from that interview we would be objecting to judge um as far as uh Friday we have our uh expert Richard Tovar lined up to be here at 1 o'cl on Friday uh we have the intent is to play the recording of uh Wisconsin State Patrol Trooper Timothy Canen as well as the reporting ofmer Shields emmer Shields from Dunn County it's my understanding that the state does not object on Foundation or um inability to cross-examined so we would not need the witnesses to be here in person to enter those recordings in uh I got the impression that they might object on other grounds whether but suggesting we take that up now but I just want to make clear that if we are able to play those tapes we can play them without I have Trooper cans and under subpoena I mean he can be here but just professional courtesy if it's he's not needed I'll release him from his subpoena um and I believe they said that they could have Mr uh Shields available as well but we can either address the the admissibility of those now or at least just clear up the foundation are are you yeah okay we object to the playing of them but we don't we we have no problem if you know if the court ends up finding that they're admissible we believe they're heay uh but to the extent if the court finds that they are admissible uh and they come in under some exception to the heay rule uh we don't require we don't care if uh Trooper canson or Deputy Shields are here to say yes that's my recording and identify it all right and those recordings are not in evidence at this point as I understand yes that's correct that's correct all right and uh so is the state anticipating resting before Friday at 1:00 p.m. I it it's hard to say if it's going to be you know it depends on if we get detective proc finished tomorrow if we do yes I I expect detective procs testimony considering the fact that we've got two hours of recordings is going to take about a half a day uh between his actual testimony and playing the recording so just depends on if we get through the the other Witnesses in the morning which is not impossible then uh I think we will be done tomorrow otherwise it will be early on Friday morning all right so um if you're not done is it uh is have the parties agreed that Dr Tovar could be taken out of order before the state rests in order to uh accommodate the schedule we'll be done before 1:00 on Friday I don't think there's any doubt about that your honor okay very well so we don't have that issue then be because his only other availability would be late next week and so um again not that if we have Dr Tovar and we have the plane of those tapes that would take up a defense half day um I just want to give every you know um obviously there's constitutional rights involved there's lots of other issues involved but uh the plan would be if if Ms MCAS chooses to testify that that would take place on Monday we have Dr uh Steve even Benson lined up to testify on Tuesday and he's unfortunately the only witness that's available for us on Tuesday and then Dr uh Hopper is available all day Wednesday as well as uh Dr Lindsay Thomas on Wednesday and so she's only available in the morning on wedes she's only available in the morning on Wednesday so but the we can get those two uh experts in and then that's what we intend to to introduce and to play but that would leave us a depending upon how long director Cross of Miss mcis if she chooses to testify takes there might be some Gap time on Tuesday which might be just a good time to start discussing instructions and whatever other matters are but that's kind of as the defense sees it the plan for the future all right judge I also have a request up for Friday okay unfortunately I have to move out of my hotel because they don't have a room for me and I I have like a month's worth of stuff with me cuz that's how long I'm gone and I would really like to start later Friday because I have to get everything this week yeah this Friday I mean I really think that with our schedule we'll have a little extra time but I definitely would prefer to start in the 9 to 9:30 time on Friday so I've don't have to get up extraordinarily early to pack and check out of the hotel well I think uh again it's a little early but uh I think it sounds like we can probably accommodate that yeah I appreciate that all right anything further today no um judge I I do intend to offer the exhibit of the that was located in the car so we'll have to take that up at some point before Miss vazan testifies um so that's it all right and uh again I'd also ask the uh defense Council to be give the court a heads up in terms of you know what your uh position is with respect to those recordings if again the state sounds like they would be objecting on hearsay um and uh so uh just just give that some thought we don't need to go into it right now I have to go to a wedding was going to do 4:30 so just there were a couple sidebars I believe I don't know if they've all been put on the I don't think that we have uh taking care of all of that but uh and if you need to leave I'm I'm find that tomorrow well I don't have to leave the building and uh but I don't want to have to have you all come back here you know in 15 minutes um so uh what we can do is just take take care of that first thing in the morning and uh just ask Council to be here again 8:15 tomorrow and we'll uh take care of the sidebars as well as any other issues that we can do before we have the jury come okay thank you all right then we're adjourned for the evening Bond will continue and that is all thank you

Channel: COURT TV

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Id: Xu7tAKQDV9g

Length: 141min 51sec (8511 seconds)

Published: Sat Dec 09 2023