Thank you. Uh Just to kind of put a bow on this and clarify things. M Vander Ark. Is it true that the last custody order from Oklahoma that involved Timothy indicated that you are only to be allowed supervised parenting time. That is correct. Now, uh Mr Johnson was uh talk to you about the fact that after Adam had his stroke tragically in January and was out of the home that, that, that was a, was a significant financial hit for you. Is that fair to say? Yes, sir. And uh as a result of that you didn't have a lot of income coming in? Um Were you working in NGO at that time? I was. Yes, sir. Um So you, when you work here, it was not a paid internship, you were working in thee go for paid internship at that time. Is that correct for a clerkship? Yes, sir. And then what were your other, um what were your other sources of income at that time? Um Which time in January right after the stroke, right after the stroke, um the rental income that I received from my brother from Oklahoma. And then I had, I was down to one dog training client. Um, now you're not suggesting to the jury that you couldn't afford to have food for your kids. Are you? No, sir. In fact, you've seen the pictures and you don't even show you the pictures of your freezer, refrigerator pantry all pretty well stocked with food, wouldn't you agree? Yes, sir. So you, so there certainly was a financial ability for you to provide for your Children, at least in the food. Thats correct. Yes, sir. Food for. And you're, you're a highly intelligent woman and I'm sure you're aware of multiple resources available in the community if that ever became an issue, right? Yes. United Way, food pantries, anything of that nature. But, but you never felt the need to reach out to any of those resources, did you? No, sir, because we had groceries covered. Um You talked about Mr Johnson asked you about the motion sensors and I'm not sure we got like any real sense of clarity about the motion sensors. Um When we're talking about motion sensors, we're talking about ones that would um not only go off if, if there was motion, that's what a motion sensor is obviously, but would give some type of audio alarm, right? Uh Some of them did. Yes, sir. And um Timothy had very sensitive hearing, didn't he? I was not aware of that. No, sir. That's when Paul said that yesterday that puzzled me. You didn't know about that you didn't know he had surgery. I was there for the surgery for his tubes. But no, I mean, it was, at least my experience with Timothy was half the time he didn't hear what you were saying. Some. Did you know that he found it discomforting when that, when those noises happened, did you know that that was, you know, for lack of a better way of putting it? That was, that was a punishment too for those noises to be going on. No, I did not. Um, um, said he was autistic, right? He was on the autism, loud noises, disturbances, things like that. Those are troubling for folks with autism, aren't they for some of them? But he never, I mean, he, he liked to listen to his tablet extremely loud. Um, and I remember, um, because little man, sorry, I'm trying not to say his name. But, um, you know, when we'd have thunderstorms, it, sometimes it would freak him out and it didn't, things like that didn't bother Timothy at all. And Timothy sat with me, ok, go ahead and judge me or laugh at me. But when I, before the PTSD I used to watch, when I watch college football, I would scream at the television every play, offensive defense. That's just who I am. And, um, and Timothy was right there with me hollering at the TV. So, so the, the alarms didn't bother him at all. I mean, I wouldn't say that I mean, they, they bother people, probably sell everybody but I, but they didn't, it wasn't, he wasn't overly sensitive to it because it begs the question. If the alarms don't bother him, what's the point in having them? Right. Yes, sir. And they were there as part, a disincentive for him to do the things he wasn't supposed to do. It was to let us know he was doing it too. That way we knew what was going on, but it was, it was supposed to also be, you're not supposed to be doing this and we know when you're, you're going to be doing this, right? It was, it was so he knew we would be notified and the doing this that we're talking about is coming out of the basement area at the home, right? Coming upstairs in the middle of the night. Yes, sir. Coming upstairs in the middle of the night. Yes, sir. So, so these would only be active at night. I only turned them on at night. Yes, sir. So there's no text messages in there about turning on the motion sensor during the day. So we can't come upstairs. I I mean, I don't recall it but, but you would, I if those are in there, you would agree with me then that you were using the motion sensors to keep him downstairs even during the day, right? If I mean, if it happened occasionally, I do you remember the text exchange about turning off the alarms so that he can go to the bathroom and then turning the alarms back on after he's done going to the bathroom. Do you remember those that was read the other day? Vaguely? Yes, sir. Well, I'm sure you remember them from being read the other day. Do you remember sending those text messages? No, sir. No memory of those text messages. No, sir. And you're talking, there's, are you talking motion sensor or there was there was one motion sensor? Ok. Motion sensors are are still, that's not that that's different. You're talking about a uh it was actually for a bike alarm like for somebody stealing a bike, I guess it was. And you, that was the one that, that was that you were referring to the motion sensors that we've been talking about are posted in the house and those don't get turned, those didn't need to be turned on in our office. So the motion sensor were the alarms, the one that was outside. Is that what you're saying? The motion sensor with the alarm that the one that makes noise was not one that was in the house. No, they were up on the stairs. There was, there's a personal one that you could attach to whatever you wanted to. There was one of those and then there were several on the stairs. I see. Ok. And the purpose of the one on the stairs, one was to make sure you didn't come upstairs in the middle of the night. Yes, sir. And the ones to it and you actually the ones that you could attach to a thing you actually attached to a person, didn't you? Occasionally? Yes, sir. So the, let's talk about the cameras then. Um, well, I guess let me ask you this question. So the motion sensor goes off, the alarm goes off. Maybe it doesn't go off, maybe it's not one of the ones that have, have an alarm on it. So, what ho how was that a deterrent or how is that a, a punishment to Timothy? That wasn't meant as a punishment. It was to let us know so we could go make sure that he was, you know, he wasn't wandering around, he wasn't getting into taking batteries apart and taking other messing with stuff that he shouldn't have been. So you wanted to restrict his movements and you wanted to know if he moved out of the basement area whenever the motion sensors were on? Yes, sir. And the cameras are, I, I think he testified that the camera, at least initially he put the camera in place and gave in G's room to make sure that he wasn't running around without his clothes on. Right. Yes, sir. When he was a toddler, he would strip down. I was putting a camera in his room to show him running around, restricting from doing that. Well, it doesn't restrict, it was to let us know that he was doing it and you have a problem with him running around. He wasn't potty trained. He wasn't potty trained. I see. But otherwise if you're potty trained, it's ok to have your Children running around naked. No, no, you wouldn't want to have a child running around your house naked, would you? No, you wouldn't want g to see his brother running around naked, would you? No. And I'm wondering why the text message that you sent to? Um Paul about about Timothy making a mess in the garage was that he had to clean the garage without anything on below the waist and then he could stand against the wall without anything below his waist. I don't remember that, sir. I'm sorry, you don't remember that toughness. No, sir. It's interesting. Take a look at this is from the larger text messages. This is all the text messages between you and Paul. It's a 200 if not 1000 pages. Uh take a look at this is page 5783. Mr Johnson wants to reference the text. This the blue is your text messages. Can you read that for this journey, please? The blue one says my big my bigger issue is that you said you checked every minute or so, but checking on the camera would have told you he wasn't listening. I'm not absolving him of responsibility by a long shot, but there are reasons the cameras are in place. What time was that time? Uh 4:14 p.m. it looks like. So at 4:14 p.m. you're upset with Paul because he's not watching Timothy every minute on the cameras, right? If I remember correctly, that particular day, yeah, he said he was gonna check, but that wasn't, I didn't expect him to check every day, but there were days that were much more challenging and that was when I asked him to keep a closer eye eye on. Where is the text message that describes what the challenging incident was that day? I don't know, sir. I mean there was, it was, there was a lot of challenging incidents going upstairs. No, sir, going upstairs was ok during the day. Um As long as that as he was being monitored, yes, you talked about, we, we talked about the autism already. You talked about a number of other issues that um that Timothy had bipolar A DH D. Is there some other ones sensory processing, sensory process? So he had the same disorder that you did sensory processing disorder? Um But there's different, it's, there's different manifestations of it. He had the one where his senses being overloaded didn't have didn't make a problem for him. Is that what you're saying? His was he was more hypo sensitive, which means he didn't, he didn't react the way a typical person would as, as far as less of a reaction. Um There was a, a time I was told about it when we still lived in Oklahoma. Um, I guess he was being given a bath and he fell and, and hit his jaw and they didn't, he didn't say anything. He wasn't, he didn't say he was in pain. Well, I guess he went to someone's bedroom and my oldest son brought him back out and he had completely bitten through his tongue and not said anything. So he, he did not react as much to stimuli as most people do. There's hypo and hyper sensitive and he was hypo sensitive and is there medication for that that you take? Not that I'm aware of. I don't know. Do you go to counseling for, for, for you or did you go to counseling for, for? Not for that? No, sir. Um for any of your other issues though, I have over time, it's been a long time. Um But in fact the entire time Timothy was in the state of Michigan. You never took him to a counselor or a doctor to address any of those issues, did you? No, sir. I didn't have insurance, the insurance information. You didn't reach out to any resources in the community that might have been available to help. Did you? I, I did actually get no, did you reach out to any resources in the community? Which ones I contacted D HHS about uh getting on Medicaid? But they said that because he had other insurance that would be primary. So we still had to have that information. Did you reach out to community mental health or Health West? I guess it's called. Now. I didn't, I wasn't aware of it. I didn't, I, I hadn't heard of Health West until I started working on the courthouse. Right. You worked in this courthouse in the county that you live in for at least the entire summer, as I recall correctly. You, and you never knew that we had AAA mental health agency here in Muskegon County. I didn't realize that's what it was for. I, I honestly, I didn't think about it. I re the only, as far as resources go. The only thing that I thought about was D HHS for things like Medicaid and food stamps. Mr Johnson asked you about the alarms on the doors and you, your, your response to him was that the alarms went on the doors about three weeks before Timothy passed away. Is that correct? Somewhere in there? That was approximate somewhere in there? Ok. You can look up the Amazon history on my phone. Well, I'll do you one better than that. This is page 3932 of the text messages from you. Can you go ahead and read that exchange for the jury and the date, please? Uh Did he say miraculously Noah, this is Paul's response now, right? Yes, Noah was emphasizing because I turned on the alarm yet he slipped past. Um That's not good. We need to put up the other two alarms tonight later on. That's the motion sensors, but you referred them to alarms. Yes, sir. I did. That's what we call them. That was February, that was motion sensors months before he died. Yes, sir. You just mixed up with an alarm of what a motion sensor is. Yes, sir. That's why I called them alarms. I didn't call the motion sensors most of the time. This one's a little bit longer exchange. But if you could read 3996 for me, please. Just this page. No, the whole thing that saved. Uh Is it snowing at home currently? KK Timothy apparently ate my pop tarts a few days back. Not anymore. Uh Are you kidding me? When did he do that? He said he doesn't know the exact day. Um That's a bunch of BS. And how did he do it? Did he sneak down to the bathroom? He says it was before we had the other alarms. Um I said that's not true because we've had those for over a week now and you had pop tarts in that box as of this past weekend or Friday at the very latest. That's still the motion sensors. So again, you refer to the motion sensors as there and you're upset at that point because Timothy did some pop t is that I understand this text message in that case because he stole them. Paul had, had gotten them for himself and because he stole them and that date, uh, I don't know if we read it or not, but you would agree with me that. Oh, it's on Valentine's Day February 14th, 2022. Right. I want to take a look at 37 02 crossed the parts that's not really necessary for you to read and just go ahead and tell the jury that date and what's on there. Uh The date is January 24th. Ok. Uh Did Timothy have to wash his sheets? Question mark? Yes, I said pretty sure that is him pounding over the extra camera and motion sensors. So, and that was in January of 2022 right? So no problem referring to a motion sensor in January of 2022. But suddenly come February, you mix up with an alarm and what a motion detector are correct. Yes, sir. Like I said, you can check on Amazon history. You don't want to revise your testimony about when it was that you started using alarms on the doors. No, sir, because it's in my Amazon history when I purchased those. You, Mr Johnson about Timothy being on medication for a lot of his issues. Is that correct, sir? And uh I think you said that when he came to you, you, he was like a zombie, right? So you decided to take him off those medications, didn't you? No, sir, we didn't, we couldn't get refills. We had to, we had to get a, a refill through a doctor and we didn't have a doctor. So your testimony wasn't that you took him off those medications. I said that I wanted to. You wanted to. Yes, sir. At least some of them because they were, I mean, he was, he was a zombie. It was horrible. You wanted to take him off the medications and it happened anyway because you can't get refills for him. So you're actually happy that that happened, not the way it happened, but he wasn't a zombie afterwards. But you definitely did not consult with the doctor before he did that. No, sir, because we ran out which you and again, didn't reach out to any besides the HHS. Didn't reach out to any resources in the community that might have helped you out with the child with such severe emotional issues that you have to use motion sensors and later alarms and locks on things. You, you didn't reach out for any resources before you just decided to stop them taking medication before we, before we ran out. I, I wasn't aware of, like I said, Id HHS is pretty much the main resource that I was aware of. Did you ever talk to somebody and say, look, I'm at my wits end here. I reach out to resources and talk to the judge that you were collecting for said, what can I do to get some help here? Did you ever do any of that? I talked to some friends at work, but I didn't, I didn't ask for resources. I just vented to them and nobody suggests anything I didn't ask. Um, it's rather unusual the way this, this question was answered by you. She said there was one time that your mother-in-law saw Timothy. Yes, sir. One time. Yes, sir. Just the one after the stroke. Yes, sir. Just once in six months was the only time as far as I remember. Yes, sir. That's what I believe. In fact, you went to great lengths to make sure that the grandmother, that's Grammy, that's the person you refer to as Grammy, right? Your mother in law, you went to great lengths to make sure that she wasn't allowed in your home, didn't you? I mean that was just because the house was a mess. Did you have some type of tracking device on her to know where she was? Um, she, we had her phone under our, our phone plan so I could look up on find my iphone because usually when she was that way, um Paul wanted to know when she was coming to get Gabriel. Oh gee, sorry. Uh Let me show you what's uh, it's 4284. So it's a lengthy exchange, but go ahead and read that from the jury. It's from I March 28th. Uh So hm, a stupid thing writing on my watch that should have said good Uh, Grammy left home about 10 minutes ago. Hopefully she will not beat me there this time, but please have him ready to go and please keep a very close eye on your messages. I will track her on the app as I head home. Um Hey, I need to see to make sure you're seeing these messages and please make sure his new shoes are on him. Ok, thank you. Um, and do not do not, do not let Grammy inside. Exclamation point. Yes, sir. Right? Ok. Uh She will probably beat me there but not by more than a couple of minutes. You get clothes on two, please. Ok. Uh go ahead and take Gabriel outside and send to me down to stand up against the wall downstairs. You can, it says create the puppy too. But um ol and then ok, she should be pulling up pretty soon. Ok? I got it. I'm glad you got it but you better be outside. Uh He's outside. Do you want to say goodbye? That's Paul's response back to you? Yes, and I said yes, I do. I'll be there in just a minute. Head to the car. Now, how's it going there? He said good already taped the code, right? I think you stop there. Um So you're tracking her movements on your phone as you're driving all at stoplights. Yes, sir, because you're worried that she's gonna see a messy house and the solution to that is put Gabriel outside when, so that he's outside when she gets there. Right. That was, I'm sorry, I misspoke. That was March 8th. Right? So rather than his grandmother come into the house, even the entryway of the house in the middle of winter, not middle of winter on March 8th, your solution was put Gabriel outside, make sure she doesn't come in. Do not, do not, do not let her in the house. Paul was out. Exclamation point. I wouldn't end up never put him outside by himself. Paul was outside with him. 4044. Mm. Uh please also have some decent clothes on in case I need you to bring a little man out. I'm hoping Grammy does not meet me there. It looks like it will be close. Uh He said, OK, he said I will tell you when to take him outside to wait for her. Just please make sure she doesn't leave until after I get there. I haven't been away from Gabriel at night since this all started and I wanted to give him a hug and kiss before he goes. Uh OK, go ahead and go outside and wait for her. It shouldn't be more than a few minutes before she gets there. Just please don't let her leave until after I get there. Uh She is almost there are y'all outside? I would like a response to that message. Um question, question mark, question mark, question mark. You might need to make Timothy stand with his nose. It says of against the front door on the inside. Please tell me that you and the child are outside. Seriously. No response. I'm almost there and I'm more than a little upset at the moment. You're upset because at that point you don't know whether or not she's gonna come into the house, aren't you? I was upset because I wasn't getting response that drives me crazy. It's a pet peeve. I hate not getting a response via text message. Right? So you gotta have my child standing outside. So his grandmother doesn't go inside and oh, by the way, I put my other child up against the front door with his nose against the wall. Right? Because he was in trouble for something. I mean, I don't know what happened before that exchange. What would, what would, what would he do to get punished to have him? Make sure he's standing against the wall with his nose against the door? That's, that was one punishments. He would, would make him stand against the wall with his nose. And the reason I had it against the door is because I didn't want him getting into anything that way. Paul had a better ability to monitor him. 4123. Yes. When you get home, please make sure G's face is not a mess and he isn't filthy, dirty and then please get socks and shoes on him and his headphone case in his backpack and maybe his blue headphones as well. Ok. Um, also please watch him but please have Timothy get those two pumpkins off the front porch and into the trash can before Grammy gets there. Grammy isn't supposed to get there till 615, but she was early last time. So she might do that again. I hope not. Oh, remember to bang loudly on the door three times, please. I will let Timothy know to listen from here for you here in the next few minutes and Grammy may just beat me there again, which doesn't make me happy. But anyway, if she does do not let her in the house, it's time. Ok. Work was fun. I accidentally scratched my palm with a knife, opening a bag and then cut my elbow from banging my funny bone on a metal carton. That was Paul's response back to you. So that's three text exchange within a couple of weeks of each other where you are absolutely consistent. But you're the, the boys grandmothers, the boy's grandmother, G's grandmother, not come into the house, right? Yes, sir. To the point where you're tracking her phone while you're driving home from work, right? Yes, sir. I did. I only tracked it when I was stopped. I wouldn't do that while I was driving. But now Mr Johnson asked you about the uh leg irons. Do you recall that? Yes, sir. And you said that those were uh, Timothy's leg irons, correct? And I'm sorry that they were your testimony here today was that those were ordered by Paul and Paul would use those on Legos. Correct? Yes, sir. Actually, I don't think I testified about the leg. I just, I know that he heard there were Paul's purchase. I don't think I actually testified about the Legos. I think that was a conversation with police. Well, I'll leave the jury to the recollection of that. But II I remember you saying Legos and not ashamed to admit the fact that I'm actually a fan of Legos too. So that's why it stuck out in my mind that you just said it earlier today. Um But to be clear, your testimony is those were Paul's, those were never used on Timothy, right? As far as I know. Yes, sir. Let's look at that top text message 5460, top two text messages. Again, the blue is you. Uh the wisely transaction is handcuffs and lead cups for Tim from Amazon figured it would be ok to get those right away till we can talk about the sensors and stuff. If not, please say so we can cancel the order. I don't remember that. You, you don't remember that message, sir. I don't, you really do have some memory problems, don't you? Yes, sir. Common with PTSD page 5829. If you could read that last text there at the bottom and then continues on to the next page uh he has moved around so he got the cups in front of him instead of behind him, go ahead and put the page and read the next one. Uh I put the cuffs back behind him. I will have to deal with less than two hours of sleep today but not letting him get away with this BS. I put the cuffs back behind him. That is your attachment. Yes, sir. So you use handcuffs on Timothy. I don't remember. Honestly don't remember. No sir. And you said that the transaction, the wisely transaction was the light cups and handcuffs for Timothy. That was your text message. That's what the message said is that the I don't know as well. You don't remember that one either there between the time of the stroke and Timothy's passing. There's I don't remember a heck of a lot, but somehow you can remember when the police ask you about the leg irons and the cuffs. You say those were for Paul for a Tik Tok video, right? I I think that's what I told him what you told the police. So you don't remember things but you have the wherewithal to make it look like. No, no, this don't involve Timothy. Those, those are Paul. It's pretty self serving, isn't it? I'll overdraw the last part you had the wherewithal to say that the, the, the cuffs that they found belong to Paul when your text message indicates they were actually for Timothy. Right? Apparently. Yes, sir. Mr Johnson asked you about the zip ties. Do you remember? Yes, sir. Do you ever use zip ties on Timothy uh to attach the um, the personal sensor? And then II I remember hearing about a conversation about them. Yes, I text, I don't remember it but I, I remember hearing about it when it was read. You remember hearing about a conversation? Did, did that, did, did that make you stop and go? Oh my. Oh, my goodness. We can't be put in Timothy in, in zip ties. Yes. I mean that, that's what I thought here. Yes, sir. Sure. Ok. Well, then this, uh, if you care to read the bottom of 4227 that's Paul's message to you. Uh, oh, this is from earlier. He just won't listen or does something. I didn't tell him he could, he just tried claiming his zip cuffs were too tight when I didn't even tighten them to where there's no room for his wrists. This is your response now. Yeah. Leave them as they are. And I will check them when I get home and you can tell him that and if he lied about that, he gets himself in even more trouble. You keep going. No, that's fine. Leave them as they are and I will check them when I get home. You want to revise your earlier answer to the question when you said that you would have said, oh, no, don't use zip cuffs on Timothy. I don't recall that, sir. I'm sorry, I don't recall that either. Um, you, you seem to be having a lot of difficulty in when it comes to the text messages that are talking about the things that you either did or want done to Timothy. Um, is, is that where the, the, the memory issues kick in for you? It's most of what happened. It's not just text messages, it's, and it doesn't just involve him. It's, I mean, the events of the whole six months are so if, if so all the other text messages that are just about, you know, hey, how's your day going or get your bike tire fixed? All those types of things. Those are all clarity moments, right? I don't, I don't know if I, I mean, if you showed me, I don't know if I'd remember him or not. Honestly, that's, we sent a lot of text messages. But I, what, what I guess that's a clumsy way of asking that question. You're certainly capable of engaging in a conversation with Paul. That's not about anything for Timothy, right? I mean, I would assume so. I don't, I mean, as far as memory goes, my, my memory of those is not um well, let me just, we'll just see what your explanation is for this. So we're, this is 5785. This is June 21st of 2022. This is a week or so after that picture and we'll get to the picture in a minute that you say that you never saw. Go ahead and read your text message to Paul uh four with hot sauce that he has to eat and he is, has allowed another four without it says house sauce, but he has to do the hot sauce one first and then set a timer for 30 minutes before you can eat the others. What time is that set? Uh 805 pm to the, to the second place? Uh 18 ok. What's your next text message? Um 805 47 30 seconds or so later. Yes, sir. I was using Siri because I was driving. You could tell by the issues with the text message. I found enough in change to get Gabriel some chicken nuggets and French fries from Burger King. It's like three bucks total. So we will be home as soon as I do that. Do you remember sending the hot sauce text? I don't remember sending either one of these texts or I don't remember sending either one of those. No, sir. I don't, but you can process that. Timothy needs to eat some bread with hot sauce on it, but you scrounged up enough change to make sure that g gets some chicken nuggets and fries within 30 seconds. Processing that all in your mind, sending it all in the text message, right? Apparently. Yes, sir. Like I said a, a series. Let's talk about the photograph. It's people's 36 A uh Mr Johnson asked you about it. So if you remembered the text exchange, including the photograph of Timothy, right? Yes, sir. And I just see. No, I, I've already seen that a couple of times. I don't think they need to see it again right now. Let's go ahead and read the exchange there starting with the message that Paul sent to you with the photograph. Um Timothy tried to sneak food. I yelled at him and then he became momentarily unresponsive. And then I saw this. He's bone thin mama. I think, I think we need to actually feed him. Ok. And what's your response to that? I said, K give him bread please. And then I said, I hear you give PB sandwiches and water. Do you want me to keep going? Ok. The unresponsiveness is probably fake, but I see what you mean and go ahead to the next page. Uh Also it's no wonder he's hardly capable of standing. Then that's the one with photographs of his legs, right? And then I said, I'm in court. So was it really your testimony that you never saw that photograph? I do not recall seeing it. I, that was it. I feel like I wanna throw up. You don't recall seeing the photograph, right? No, sir. The unresponsiveness is probably fake, but I see what you mean. You literally use the word. See in your text message about, see what you mean. But your testimony today is, I, I didn't look at the photograph, I didn't see the photograph. Yes, sir. That's, I mean, it's a phrase that you use. It's a phrase that you use. I see what you mean. Yes, sir. Isn't that usually when you see the things that the people are talking about sometimes I'm wondering why your response to your son saying that your other child is bone thin and needs to eat actually feed him. That's the phrase actually feed him, right? That's what he said. Yes, sir. And your response to that is ok. Give him bread please. Or bread with peanut butter. Is that right? Yes, sir. Not. Oh my goodness. This is if he's that hungry. Yeah, make him a, make him some chicken nuggets, make him some pizza, make him some pizza rolls. Make him any one of a dozen or so things that were in your freezer or your refrigerator, any of that. But that wasn't your response, was it? No, sir. I was like I said, I was in court. I just was scrambling for an answer. You were in court, but you were able to send 123 text messages before you said you're in court, right? Yes, sir. And the first answer you come up with to feed your child was given bread. I don't remember what I was thinking at the time, sir. I just know that I was distracted because I was in the middle of stuff with court but not so distracted that you can say, well, the unresponsiveness is probably fake, but I see what you mean. Like, I don't know how, I mean, I don't know what was going on when that was set. I honestly don't Mister Johnson asked you about the hot sauce that you uh ordered and we saw the bottles of hot sauce. Those weren't, those weren't just ordered from Myer. Were they, you had a special order? Those didn't you? Yes, sir. Um I think you said the reason that you couldn't just get those from Myer for your grocery delivery things is because they just didn't have hot sauce, right? They didn't have that type of hot sauce, that type of hot sauce. Ok. How did you, how did you conclude that that was the type of hot sauce that Timothy? How do I put this both loved and got to be used as a punishment because the, the hot sauce that I had and the ones that I could access on the apps, he could, he loved those hot sauces. So, so you had to go out of your way to find one even hotter one that he didn't like. Yes, sir. Ok. And the, the hot sauce started as Paul's idea. Yes, I do. How do you come up with the idea to do hot sauce if Timothy likes hot sauce? Um, well, he said that, that if he, I guess he'd read something, if I remember correctly. I don't, I mean, this, the conversation's not, I mean, it's vague at best but, um, from what I've remembered he'd said something about, he'd read something about something really hot. Some new something he's like, oh, this might be an idea to do it with a, a sauce that he doesn't like. So, you, you, you tested out other hot sauces before he got to that point and because he didn't react, he figured let's just keep increasing the heat. Is that it? No, that, I mean, I don't remember which, I mean, how, how many I ordered but I just went with something that was, that was, that was hotter than what I could get. So you try to punish him with a lower hot sauce but he, he doesn't respond. So then you increase how hot it is. I didn't try with the lower because he already knew he liked the lower hot sauce. How did it even occur to you to be a punishment for it for, to find one even hotter? Then how is that? Even a punishment? If he likes hot sauce? He never liked eating the hot sauce. Did he? Huh? Yes, he did. He, he, he ate spicy food. You heard, you heard Paul's testimony yesterday? I did and you heard him say that he never wanted to eat those slices of bread with the hot sauce on it? Didn't you? You heard that? That's what I heard him say. Yes. And, and, and your response to that in a lot of these text messages is make sure you use even more hot sauce than you did before, right? If that's what you say, the text messages say, oh, you just read the one that said he can have four and then he can wait 30 minutes and then he can have some without hot sauce on it. You read that one, right? But again, you don't remember sending that text message. No, sir. But aliens didn't take a hold of your phone and take over your body or anything like that, did they? No, sir. No, Mr Johnson didn't ask you. So I'll just go ahead and ask you, you used a number of other physical methods of punishing Timothy, didn't you? The number two, you made him do wall sets uh one time and that was Paul's suggestion as well. He said all this, this used to drive me crazy. Um I guess he said that Paul said that his dad and stepmom had used that as a punch with him and so we decided to give it a try and Dempsey could have cared less. It, he what? He could not have cared less. So, so being made to stand as if there's no support under your legs, he was, he was ok to do that. I mean, how long did you have him do it? For a couple of minutes. Couple of minutes. When was that? I don't remember honestly and run on the stairs. Yes, sir. You had to do that a lot, didn't you? I wouldn't say a lot. I, it was some, in fact there was one, there's one Texas change in here where you talk about, make sure that he does it a lot, even if it's raining and cold outside. Right. That's what the text says. Yes, sir. And Paul talks about doing it chasing style at one point where he f he chases them up and down the stairs. Right. Yes, sir. And the stairs we're talking about are outside. Yes, sir. They're inside. They're so cold. Rainy. Yep. Go, go run the stairs outside. What, what did he do? What was the awful crime he had done to warrant doing that? I don't remember, sir. Right in the direction of page 6011 context. I wonder how it would feel to have that hot sauce on your private parts. I'm not saying touching there, not at all but dripping a little bit. There is a horrible, did you have to ask that question? I wouldn't think so. I don't remember that. I can't even imagine saying that, but you did. I know, but I can't even imagine it about your child. Right? Who at that point was in the middle of the night bath, but it lasted at least 2.5 hours at that. Point, right. What are you asking if I said that I'm asking you if you said that when your child was in an ice bath for 2.5 hours at that point in time, because this is 425 in the afternoon. And you're watching on the camera from work and texting with Paul about what he's supposed to be doing with him, with him in the tub. Right? I mean, if that's what was I, I don't remember and if that's what it says, I'm not arguing that I'm not trying to argue that I'm just saying, I don't know. It just popped in your head today. Yeah, I wonder what hot sauce on your private parts would be like, but I have no idea where it came from. I have no idea. Did you ever try that hot sauce? No, I don't like food as spicy as OK. About the hottest I can handle is um Jalapeno Cheddar Cheetos. I'm, I'm with you there. I can't handle hot sauce either. So you never even, but administering it as a punishment multiple times you thought was OK without even trying it yourself first. Yes, I have a very weak stomach and so I didn't want to throw up. Um, let's talk about the ice maker for a second. Uh People's 31 and people's 32. Yes. You recognize that as the ice maker? Yes, sir. It's a counter top ice maker. You said it makes about a cup and a half of ice. This is a cup and a half of ice in your mind. No, I measured it. I actually used it to. Um, you can get, I don't know if you've ever had a frappe from mcdonald's. But, uh, Walmart sells a powder mix that you can, you add, uh, milk and ice to and it's really good and it's only like a dollar $3 at mcdonald's. And so that it calls for, for some reason, I wouldn't say it actually calls for more than a cup and a half, but that's all I could get out of it. But yes, that's in a measuring cup. Like a sitting up measuring cup. It's a cup and a half. That's all it does. And the uh I, I think your testimony earlier was you didn't know that ice was being used. Is that right? As far as the cold baths? Not unless it was specified. I mean, there was, there was, there was sometimes where it said cold and sometimes where it said ice. I didn't say I didn't know it was being used. It was, if it, if it was cold it was supposed to be just cold. But all you would use would be the ice. That was that you get out of the ice maker, you wouldn't make any more ice and put it away and store it up so we could have extra for the next day. Would you not that I remember ever doing. No page 5823 that those are all your text messages. Um Oh, yeah, I know. But I wasn't nice tonight either. Made me feel horrible, but no way was he getting away with that crap? Um, let him know that if he tries to sleep at all, he'll get another ice bath sometime before you leave for work. And now when I get home, um, and I said might want to toss that the ice that is made into some Ziploc bags in the freezer tomorrow for if we need a bunch more. No, because we never did it. Not that I I mean you can ask Paul, you can recall him, but I don't remember ever tossing it. But your suggestion to him was, hey, we need to be ready to make more ice and using the ice baths, right? That's what the text message said, but we never saved the ice. So that was your intention was to have a backup plan if you needed to have more ice, right? That's what the text says and that was March. That was June 27th or yes, June 27th. That was about a week before Timothy died, right? And that's about two weeks after you were sent the text message with the picture that you didn't see. Yes, sir, Mister Roberts. Yes, sir. Uh I birth is true. Uh Ladies and gentlemen, as much as I, I always, I used to do this in private practice. So it was always tough to take breaks during examination, but as much as I hate to do it, uh, I think it's a good time for a break right now. We've gone, uh, over an hour and 45 minutes. So we're gonna take a 15 now, a little bit shorter than 15 minute break and, uh, come back at 330. 0, thank you. Right. So, we'll see you back in about 15 minutes, please rise. Ok? I never seen it. Uh, anything for the record before we break. Mr Roberts. Mr Johnson. No, sir. Thank you. We are in recess.
