-People are protesting you all, folks that are wearing the badge
and doing the job. And the call to action
in a lot of those protests is to defund the police, right? How do you react to that? Weeks ago, as the nation
watched George Floyd lose his life at the hands of
a Minneapolis police officer, wounds that never seem to heal were once again reopened
in this country. And in that moment, I decided
I wanted to get a group of cops from around the country
together on a video call to confront the issues
and the problems that have long since plagued
American law enforcement. I didn't want to provide a forum
for carefully constructed and reviewed statements
from spokespeople at City Hall. I wanted to hear an authentic,
unfiltered conversation between cops
from diverse backgrounds dissecting the actions of not only those officers
in Minneapolis, but the systemic issues
within their profession, which have given rise to
widespread outrage and protests on American streets, including people calling
for the defunding of the police. This is part one
of that conversation. I'm really excited to be
with you guys here. Thank you for being so generous
with your time on a Saturday. -No problems.
-Glad to be here. -Thank you for the opportunity. -Let's go ahead
and introduce ourselves. And, Joe Dutton,
why don't we start with you? -Okay, I had 31 years. -Oof.
-I am now retired. I worked for a city
called Golden Valley, which is an inner-ring
suburb of Minneapolis. I'm a use of force expert. I testified in court
in reference to that. -Yeah, so, I was
a police officer for 6 1/2 years for the Tucson
Police Department. I was spokesperson
of the police department. I was a field training officer.
I did just about everything. And I left the police department
in 2017. As a police officer,
I was actually in the process of promoting to sergeant. -I'm Aram Choe. I've been
on the job 20 years in February. Been a sergeant for 3 1/2 years
in Los Angeles County. And my specialty is
as a public information officer, patrol sergeant,
and public relations expert. -So, I just retired in March from the Dayton Police
Department in Ohio. I was there for 21 years and 5 years in the U.S. Army
before that. In April, I assumed the position
of director of research and procedural justice for the
Charleston Police Department here in Charleston,
South Carolina, where my primary responsibility
is to implement the findings of a huge racial bias audit that the City of Charleston
conducted over the last couple of years. -I was a sheriff's deputy for the Charles County
Sheriff's Office for approximately seven years. I was in K9
for my last few years there. I loved that job. That's probably the best job
in police work. And then just recently,
I accepted a job at one of D.C.'s
smaller departments. -Been in the game eight years. Sergeant, SWAT team member, FTO, pretty much working one of the
most dangerous cities in Ohio. Done it all
in these eight years, seriously, not even an exaggeration. -I've been in policing and law
enforcement in general for over 20 years. Started out my career
in policing with the New York City
Police Department. Worked in all the major
investigation bureaus within the NYPD, from the detective bureau,
internal affairs, the narcotics division.
I was the deputy chief of the Brooklyn
District Attorney's Office. Currently, I'm the first
deputy commissioner of the Westchester County
Department of Corrections. And my views today
represent my own personal views as a professional
law enforcement expert and not the views
of my department. -I'm a detective,
16 years on the job. I was patrol for 10 years,
detective now. Chicago, and I work a north
suburb called Zion, north suburb of Chicago.
Very, very busy city. I was on SWAT, FTO
back in the day, but now I run
a outreach program. -Great. I appreciate
all of you guys being here. And I think the question
I really want to throw out to the group first is
what is it like to be a police officer
in America right now? -I'll go first. I know my first instance
of when things changed was probably going from
Trayvon -- Trayvon to
the Michael Brown incident. The Trayvon issue
didn't really kind of affect us because that was a citizen. But, you know, when the Michael
Brown incident happened, it seemed like people just
kind of like switched on a dime. You know, you just felt like, "Man, I'm out here
doing everything I can. And, you know, these people
just turned on me for something
I had nothing to do with." And it felt like
I was being blamed for something that was going on
in a whole other country. -Yeah. You know,
it's like a big circle. You start, and
the public loves you. Like Byron was saying,
they pay for your coffee, or they'll do this or do that. And then a critical incident
happens or something negative. No matter where it happens
in the nation, it affects everybody
in the nation. And I can remember
having to evolve through that at least seriously
about five or six times. -I can tell you what I think
that what it appears to be is that policing
in the negative sense is on steroids now
compared to when I left in 2017. So I really hate to see
the state of policing in America because I believe
that the police job, the police career, the calling
is such an honorable thing, and it's one of
the most integral careers to ever exist in America. Most police officers
are doing the right thing. Most police agencies are
holding people accountable. We have the knuckleheads
out there like you would have in any profession
that make us look bad. But it's sad to see
such an honorable profession be treated this way in America. -Let's be really honest. Like, law enforcement in general
has always been this way. Technology has advanced to
a point where now we capture it. What we seeing right now
has been going on for decades. This ain't nothing new.
You get what I'm saying? It's just,
now it's in the limelight. I done worked
with cops that's been racist. You know what I'm sayin'?
I done worked with cops that's been, you know, sexist.
You feel me? Like, this ain't
something that's new. I'm just -- I'm not gon' say
that I agree with the terms in which it has
come out into the public. But I am happy that there is
some light being shined, because there's no more hearsay,
you know, say, "Hey, man, the police took me around
the corner and beat my ass." And that's all you got
to go off of is your word. You get what I'm saying? Imagine if body cameras
never got implemented. It's a different curse.
You get what I'm saying? It's helped me, you get
what I'm saying, more so than it's harmed me. But when I first got introduced
to a body camera, I was kind of like, I ain't really want it, though,
for real. But I had to learn
to work with it. You get what I'm saying? But that's just my take on it,
you know? -I hear what you're saying,
David. But do you think
it's unique to police, or is it a people problem? 'Cause if you're a racist cop,
it means you're a racist person. -Of course.
-If you've got prejudices, you carry those into the job.
And sure, the job magnifies you. If you're a womanizer,
the job amplifies that. If you're an idiot, the job
amplifies that. I just don't see it being unique
to law enforcement. I think law enforcement -- And
I've been in many professions. I teach at a very conservative
Baptist university, as well. And they go through
a lengthy background process because you're working
with students. But that still doesn't come
close to what we go through as law enforcement officers. We go through
a background process where they talk to everybody,
including exes who don't have anything
favorable to say about you. -[ Laughs ] Right.
-So we get into this job. I think they do a pretty good
job weeding out the bad people. But no process is perfect.
For as long as there's human -- For as long as there's somebody
that wants this job, they're gonna
say the right thing. It's what happens
after the fact. And I think if we look
at the 99.5% of officers that do a good job every day,
and you look at that might -- very, very small minority of
officers that do stupid things, I can't say that that's unique
to police work. And it sounds like you're saying that we're bringing
this to light. I think it's just human nature.
As long as there's -- -I'm being honest with you.
You know what I'm sayin'? I can only -- I can only speak
from experience. Here's what I'm saying.
So for you, your experiences are different, so you have
a different outlook. Me and my experiences
are different, so I'm gonna have
a different outlook. I'm not saying you're wrong.
So I'm not wrong, either. I can only go by
what I've experienced. -Yeah, I'm just trying
to get clarification as to what you're saying. I --
-So -- -My entire career
was in Los Angeles County. I started in '99 where there was hardly
any Asian officers. So believe me, I understand that there is a little bit
of conflict when it comes
to different races and stuff. I've been there. I grew up
in the '70s, '80s, '90s. I've been through it all.
But it's not unique to police. I didn't experience racism as soon as I became
a police officer. It happened my entire life. -If I could jump in,
I think it's -- So, as far as growing up,
you know, Black, we already have a different view
of policing, because what a lot of people
don't realize, and, you know, especially to some of
my white colleagues, is that -- And, Joe, you're like
my father's age. Segregation was just a few --
not that long ago, during my dad -- My dad went
to a segregated school. He's still walking around today.
He's 70 years old. That wasn't that long ago. And during that time,
police were used as the arm of a lot of
segregationist policies. So we are taught
in a lot of households in the Black community that,
"Cops are bad. Cops are bad. They're going to do this --"
whether it's warranted or not. You know,
so that's kind of like PTSD passed from my parents,
my parents' parents to us, that a cop,
if he gets ahold of you, if he stops you, if he can do it
and get away with it, he's going
to do something bad to you. So that's kind of ingrained
in a lot of us, valid or not, you know? So that's one of the things that
we're dealing with, you know? So that's --
-I'm gonna jump in here really quick.
-Oh, go ahead. -Yeah, I'm gonna throw
this question to the group. By show of hands, who here feels
that there were bad apples in the policing agency
that they worked in? -That there were? -Yeah.
-Yeah. -Were or is? -Are.
-Right. -[ Chuckles ]
-I'm retired, David. [ Overlapping dialogue ] -If there were, right --
are, were, do those bad apples
need to be plucked? Or is there a deeper problem
at the root of the tree? -Nowadays, they do get plucked. And I think a lot of people -- One of the --
One of the misconceptions you see a lot online
from a lot of these people, and they go, "Well, the good
officers or bad officers, because they don't say anything
about the bad officers, that means they're the same." And what I think
people don't realize is officers are fired
all the time nowadays. Louis, you might not -- You know, NYPD,
I watched the documentary. They had a lot of problems
about guys, you know, squashing
whistleblowers, you know,
when they would see things. And, you know,
that kind of disturbed me. A lot of the departments
I see around here, though, is if you do something and someone sees,
they're going to tell, and you're probably
going to get fired. But it's not going
to get broadcast unless you do
something egregious, like get into some type
of organized crime or shoot somebody
or do something like that. So, people get fired
all the time, and people tell on bad apples
all the time. So it's not -- it's not
as rampant as you think it is. -Yeah.
-But I also think it's the effect, right? So, you look at, like,
in 2006 in Buffalo, you had a female,
African-American female officer try to stop and intervene
on a white police officer having a suspect
in a choke hold. And the response by the police
department was to fire her. And now today in Minneapolis, we're saying that those
officers' failure to intervene extends to them
criminal culpability. So I think when we --
Like Byron has said, when we respond in a way
where we terminate or retaliate against officers
that come forward to stop criminal activity
or serious misconduct, then that sends a message
throughout the department. In the same way,
when you have officers that -- because of their family members
or people that they know, I've known officers that have
driven drunk and gotten fired. And I've known officers
in the same department that have been arrested
three times for driving drunk, and they went on
to have a beautiful career. -I've seen that, too.
-So the consequences are not the same, right? -Definitely.
-There's significant disparities in how predominantly
minority cops are disciplined when they make mistakes
or when they are whistleblowers. And there's a huge difference
between their white counterparts and how they're disciplined..
-Yes. -...and they're coddled
through the system. My position is simple. If you're a cop,
and you drive drunk, I think you should be fired. But either we fire them all, or
we send them all to treatment. Let's not only fire people
that look like us and then send all the white people
that drive drunk to treatment. -Let me -- Let me -- I want
to jump on this. Back in 2011 when I started
at the police department, I mean, it was a big thing
on our department that if you mess up,
they're gonna throw you under the bus
and back over you, you know, because you're not
going to be a liability on the police department.
They'll let you go, especially when they're rookie
cops that weren't on probation. You're fired.
You can't make any mistake. So our police department
was very strict. When I was a PIO,
we fired plenty of people. If you commit a crime,
you're done. Black officers
and white officers or Hispanic officers
were exactly the same. You mess up, you're gonna make
the department look bad, they're gonna be
forward thinking. They're going to fire you
before it ever hit the news. -Unfortunately,
that's not everywhere, though. -Yeah. Yeah, that's
a very unique situation. -I was just about to say --
-I'm not saying it's everywhere. I'm just saying.
-Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's unfortunate,
though, it's not. -Brandon, and I like
that you say certain aspects, but, brother, please admit that what is being said
is factual, bro. You only --
-I'm not denying that. Not one time have I denied it.
I said "on my department." -And I get that.
You had a great department, bro. It was wonderful.
You get what I'm saying? They did everything right. -Most departments I know
were very similar to ours. -It's a lot of us, bro,
that are in departments and we see a lot of things
swept under the rug, man. A lot. And we always say --
Me and specific other people would be like, "Damn,
if that was me, bro, I'd have -- They'd have
kicked my ass up out of here. Like, I done seen it. And I can -- Once again,
we all are only speaking because of our experiences. Because the thing about me
with my third eye, I realize that I also
can't be ignorant that other things do go on
outside of my department. You get what I'm saying?
Like -- -That's why it's important to have this panel here.
-Right. -I'm glad we're not
all regional. I'm glad we're different parts
of the country, 'cause I can relate
to what Brandon's saying. You know, I've been to Georgia.
I've been to Smyrna. I was surprised to find out that
they can't unionize in Georgia. Their attorney general
outlawed unions out there. But agencies and states
where police unions do exist, I believe the union's out there for the betterment
of the officer, not just work conditions,
but to make sure that their professional careers
thrives and survives. -City and local officials have
held out police unions, though, as being an impediment to being
able to pursue criminal charges, prosecution, or even remove, you know,
some of these bad apples. Is that a fair characterization? -No, be-- And I'll say this. The union keeps -- You are one person as a officer
against a government agency. How are you going to fight them? Have unions made mistakes
and believed some bad apples and tried to take care
of the wrong people? Absolutely. You know, as many cops
are in the country, it's going to happen.
-Well, the question is, how many of those officers
that are reinstated -- They're not
reinstated by unions. Most of the time, they're
reinstated by courts. -Yes.
-There are sometimes issues where police departments
or cities are extremely sloppy in how they discipline
or terminate officers, not that the union is malicious
in protecting those officers, but maybe the unions
are holding the employer to a standard where
that termination or discipline should meet a standard that it's not overturned
in court. -I was going to just say
that I was a union steward. And Wendy kind of hit it right, that there's a lot more to it than just unions trying to keep
bad apples on police department, 'cause I can guarantee you,
I had no problem if they fired somebody,
'cause more than likely, you know,
they deserved to be fired. I don't know what it's like
in all your states and how you guys do things,
'cause I'm sure it's different. But in Minnesota, the county
attorney brings the charges. The union has nothing
to do with it. The union, like you just said,
is a civil group. The criminal cases are brought
by the county attorney's office. So they have nothing
to do with it. I mean, if the county attorney's going to make a charge
on an officer, like they are in this case,
union has nothing to do with it. -Right.
-They make the charge, and let's go. -Let me ask you all of this,
because, unfortunately, when these situations happen
and these bad actors start to taint relationships
with different communities in this country,
mainly the Black community or certain Latino communities,
communities of color, largely, why is it then that, you know, like the officer who had
his knee on George Floyd's neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, you had something like
18 complaints against him. How are we not able to sort of
sift through those individuals and remove them from situations
where that can take place? And also, what do you think
that has done to law enforcement's
relationship with communities of color, mainly the black community
in America? -Well, I think that is hard
with you -- I think it's --
Like, in our department, anybody that makes
a complaint against you, it will be reviewed no matter
who it is, no matter what it is. I think that that's necessary. But what happens is,
you can have an officer that people just don't like
what -- how he acts, but that don't mean
he's doing anything criminal. He may get a lot of complaints
against him that are not sustainable. So if you can't weed out
the B.S. complaints, then you can't really get to
the ground work of some stuff, because there are officers
who have legit complaints, and they need to be fired. But if you just let people
just say whatever, man, they can just
not like an officer. And forever, they'll have
these complaints. Now, as far as the Black
community, after George Floyd, I do not think
that it should be this way. I do not think that
the George Floyd situation should tear up
the Black community and their relationship
with police. I don't think that
that should be the case. The media is pushing it.
Activists are pushing it. Politicians are
pushing something that is conjuring up
a hatred for police when it shouldn't be the case. -Wendy?
-I agree with what Brandon is saying.
-Yeah. Wendy. -I agree with Brandon. I think a lot of this -- the
racial tension is media-driven. I think there's a lot of people that are taking up
this cause willy-nilly. There's -- They're not
really doing the research to see that these
are really minority cases. These are small, small cases
that make the news. You don't see the good stuff
that happens. Officers do amazing things
every day. They rescue people. They -- They take care
of families that are displaced. But you don't see that
'cause it's not sexy. And the news, unfortunately,
became a business. And, you know, they've got
to sell what sells. -And I also think that also, you
have to take into consideration the length of a person's career,
right? So, the officer in Minneapolis,
the former officer Chauvin, I think he had about
18 years on the job, and he had about 18 complaints,
right? So, you know, you're dealing
with the public all the time. If they're unsubstantiated and you're averaging one
or two complaints a year, you know, then --
then you might not have a-a pattern of -- of issues
that need to be addressed. Now, if you get 10 complaints
in three months, there may be something
going on with the officer that needs to be addressed. -And, Lee, it's --
Sometimes it's hard. You can work with people
every day, and it's -- and you can think
you know a person. You know, it's like when you
find out your next-door neighbor was a cannibal or something. You're like, "Man, I talked
to this guy every day. I never thought, you know,
he'd be eating people." Same thing
with a guy on your shift. You just can't predict
some people that are going to do
just horrendous things. -I want to put a pin in that.
Wendy, go ahead. -Yeah. So, we're talking
about systemic problems, but we're not typically dealing
with them in a systemic way. And, so, a buddy of mine
in Minneapolis told me that that entire division that
Chauvin worked in was toxic. And, you know,
if that's the case, this guy was also
a training officer. My buddy recommended
that they actually apply this contact tracing idea
to bad cops. Why aren't we going back
and looking at every cop that he trained, every person
that he influenced, and assess the situation
and see if we can maybe unwind some of the damage
that has been done? -That's a good point.
-Why do we never -- Why do we never check that type of
behavior right from the outset? Like, why is that
like, almost accepted, that -- The good word
that she uses is toxic. Like, that, "I hate people"
type of mentality, like, that is ingrained so much and accepted
in our culture of policing. I don't understand it.
I never got it. Why is that not checked?
We got body cameras. I can check
what you do every day. Are you treating people --
-I don't know -- -Let me -- Let me -- Let me
touch on that real quick. -Oh, go ahead, man. -We all know
about the thin blue line. We all know about how
if you pull over another cop, silently, you shouldn't give
another cop a ticket. We all -- Some of us may have it
in a state where state patrol don't care who they ticket.
They ticket everybody. And how city cops, sheriffs, and state patrol
have beef with each other. We beef with each other
in some aspects. But let's talk about
the interior aspect of being a police officer,
coming in as a rookie. Remember, as a rookie,
you come in, and you're taught
that you don't have a voice. When brass walks in the room,
you walk out. You know, you kind of like
treated as if you nothing. And it's not everybody. Everybody's training
was different. You get what I'm saying?
I'm just talking -- But most people that I've
talked to throughout the years at different agencies
have similar stories. Then you're also told to, like,
not tell on your brother, you know,
even if you see certain things, you know? Going back
to what you said, Matt, why isn't it investigated? Why isn't a body camera
looked at on a obvious -- on a regular-day basis? But if you doing
12-hour shifts, and you got -- Let's take a place
like Minneapolis. Like, they may have
these zones and areas whatever the case may be. And they got 12-hour shifts, so they got two platoons
every -- every day and maybe a total of four or
five or six platoons each week. With that being said, you would
have to appoint somebody to watch everyone's body cam
that's on duty. -What they do, David,
most agencies -- -Some -- Some do.
-But what I'm saying is if you have -- At most,
and I say most agencies, if you have a body camera
and car camera, what even most patrol officers
don't realize -- Supervisors and you guys know, they have a thing
that's called a trail audit, which they will look
at your camera footage. And it's not always from calls. They'll pick random footage
of your camera, in-car camera, body camera
just to see what you're doing. And a lot of dudes
do get caught up on speaking bad to citizens
or stuff like that on trail audits, not just
investigations, just random. Those guys in Wilmington that were threatening
to kill all those people, they got caught
on a trail audit. They weren't even
looking for anything. They were just randomly
viewing trail audits, and they caught these guys talking about committing crimes.
-Okay, so, Byron -- And the only reason I'm saying
this is because every district, every city is not privy to that,
bro. You get what I'm saying? Wilmington just --
-No, I definitely get what you saying. I definitely
get what you saying. -They just happened to have
that type of equipment to be able to do what they did. Everyone don't have
those type of resources nor the manpower to do so.
-Oh, I get it. I get it. Most --
-But I think you -- I think you can directly
look at that. Like, we all know
who's always into it with people on the street. Like, it's simple. Why --
Why is that even -- Why is that accepted? I know
who's an A-hole all the time. So look -- that.
-I'm-a say this. And I'm-a say this to you, Matt, 'cause, you know,
I'm-a be a realist about it. Most of those asshole cops,
they got longevity, bro. They got a good line
of seniority, and they got good relationships with people that sit
in high places. So, unfortunately,
a lot of these people that's in high places, they be
like, "Yo, that's my friend. That's my bro. You know,
I really don't want to -- I know how he is, and I talked
to him from time to time. And I don't want to really throw
the hammer down on him." You get what I'm saying?
It's some officers -- -I see it all the time. I agree. -You get what I'm saying?
There's some officers that do protect their buddies.
-And the sad thing is there's no -- there's no policy
against being an A-hole, unfortunately, you know? That's the problem.
-How do we correct it? How do you put
a policy in place? Isn't part of our job being
an ambassador for our city? -How do you get to that point? -We actually do have a charge
for that, Matt, that I've seen used
but only when they really, really, really
want to get rid of somebody. And every department has it. And it's conduct unbecoming
of police officer. And if you want to talk
about people's bad attitudes -- 'Cause I worked with guys who
if you went on a call with them, there was a guarantee that somebody was gonna
logged up for disorderly or nobody likes -- We all agree. Everybody here. Nobody likes working
with those people, because on days that you like,
"Man, I want to do my 10 hours and chill,"
and it's close to going home, and you got to run a call,
and he's your partner, you're like, "Jesus wept, man. I know we gon' end up at
the jail because of this guy." And you -- And the supervisors
know it. They know it, but they're like, "Well,
what -- what can we really do? He's not doing anything wrong,"
you know? Okay, if you really want
to be serious -- Y'all will charge conduct
unbecoming if y'all want to fire somebody
for something minor -- Get rid of this guy, you know,
'cause he's a problem. -I think we should -- I think
we should find a way to do that, because we've complained
on police sources, and nothing is done. And how do we put
a system in place to get rid of officers
who are unbecoming, not just, they have
to kill somebody first, but -- -Yeah, absolutely. -What I wanted to ask next is,
you know, across the country, right, we've been
seeing protests in cities all over America. And the call to action in a lot of those protests
is to defund the police, right, or abolishing police departments
in certain scenarios. People are protesting you all, folks that are wearing the badge
and doing the job. How do you react to that? -I think it's
incredibly disrespectful. And it's ignorant
to perpetuate the idea of defunding the police. I think that the origin
of the concept of defunding the police
came from a very bad area. It didn't come from justice.
It came from revenge. And they want to give a big "F
you" to the police department, because a lot of these cities aren't just saying
defund the police. They want to abolish
the police in general. I think that there's
a conversation to be had if you want to improve police.
Let's sit down and have an honest conversation
and say, "Look, maybe these cops
need better training." You know,
in my police department. I mean, we had the most dan-- We were the most dangerous city
in the state. When I was in FTO,
we had high-speed chases. A homicide was my first day
on the job. I mean, you got shootings,
a murder every day. And so I had
a tremendous amount of exposure to use of force
and all of the above. But some agencies
don't have that. And so they have
their first shooting, and now everybody's panicking,
and everybody got tunnel vision, and they shooting people
that shouldn't. You know, they got their finger
on the trigger. Sympathetic reflex. You have all of these
training issues that we see. So if people really
wanted to be honest, you want to help
the police department, and you actually care,
then bridge the gap. Do a ride-along.
Learn about law enforcement. Give them the financial
support they need. Understand
that there's bad cops. Let's facilitate getting them
out of the profession. But when you say you want
to defund the police and you have no recourse,
or no alternative, I mean, it's -- In my personal
opinion, it's shameful. -I think we need
to defund the police. I think the expansion
of responsibilities that has been placed
on police departments to solve societal issues has caused
part of that funding stream to significantly expand, right? We have concentrated
a lot of funding within the police department
and taken that funding away from things like
the Department of Education, the Department
of Social Services, to deal with things
like housing insecurity. And that really is not
the core responsibility of the police department. So, yes, I agree.
We still need some form of a public safety
apparatus in our communities, because, you know, we do have
some bad people out there in the world, and we need to protect
our citizenry from that. But that being said,
we're at a historic moment due to the multi-ethnic
and sustainable protests when we can have
a serious conversation about redefining what the role
we want our police departments and public safety departments
to play in our communities. -So, Wendy, I want to go to you
after this, but I'd like to ask a question
to the group. By show of hands, who here thinks
we ask too much of the police? Almost everyone. Wendy, I'd love
to get your thoughts. And then, Aram and David,
sorry, I want to hear why you guys
didn't raise your hands. -So, first of all,
on the -- you know, on the issues we're dealing with
right now, I'm here in South Carolina
where, you know, one of the reasons
I came down here work is because this city
and the state has recognized that there are some deep
systemic issues that need to change. And all of that started with
the Mother Emanuel shooting, where nine people
were tragically killed while they were
sitting in church. And following that, both the city and the state
embarked on a -- on a journey that led to this
racial bias audit and a recognition that, you know,
"We need to make change." And I think part of the problem
we're dealing with is that people sometimes
don't see the difference between having a problem
with police brutality and having a problem
with police officers. These are deeply rooted,
systemic issues that -- that exist
across all of our institutions. And we're not going
to fix policing by just fixing policing. So I think, you know,
that leads -- when we talk about dumping all of these
extraneous problems on the cops, Chief Brown said it
after the Dallas massacre that, you know, when --
Every single problem that doesn't have a separately
funded 24-hour service is sent to the police. We've been asked to increasingly
handle mental health issues and other things without the
tools or equipment to do them. And so if you start looking at what's happening already
across the United States, police departments
are independently creating their own models to address these problems
with multidisciplinary systems so that we're not just sending
a man with a gun to handle every problem. It may be a police officer
paired with a -- with an actual crisis worker
or a mental health expert. And this is a huge,
huge opportunity to make those changes and transform what we're doing
to make it more effective. -David, Aram, you guys
didn't raise your hand. You don't feel
that we ask too much from police officers nowadays. Why is that?
David, let's start with you. -To be honest with you,
the reason why I raised my hand is -- is, growing up
in the slums, never having nothing,
you know -- Each one of us in this -- in
this panel got a story to tell. But the one thing that
I've learned is that there are a lot of things that you just
can't learn through training. There's a lot of things that
you can learn in the classroom. How hard is it for you
to just have some compassion, for you to have some form
of empathy? I don't even think
most police know that you're number-one
most important weapon, whatever you want to call it,
ain't nothing on your duty belt. It's this and this and this. You know how many cops I been on that don't even know
how to use all three, let alone one? The thing is this. I agree with what Wendy stated about having an expert
go on scene to a call, but you can't ask too much
from the police. You get what I'm saying?
It really depends on the community.
It depend on the situation. Now, if you are out-manned,
like -- For instance, let's say the department
that I was working in. We were very understaffed,
alright? Very, very poor community. Taxes was very low. I was making $16.76 a hour.
You know what I'm sayin'? I'm seeing $800 checks
every two weeks. I will deal with every form
of crime imaginable. I didn't complain. I got it done
with minimal resources. So I feel like,
as a police officer, as EMS, as fire, whatever the case may --
any type of public servant, I don't think a call can
ever really be just too much, or you could be overwhelmed.
You know what I'm saying? I can understand
that some things you may not be
properly prepared for, but it doesn't mean
that you can't get some form of experience
by doing it. -I just want to jump in here
real quick and say this. I agree with you.
But the problem is they're holding
police officers accountable, although they're not giving them
the adequate amount of training. And that's, I think,
where the problem lies. When I was on
the police department, I mean, when you have a loose dog
in the community, they call the police department. We have Animal Control,
but we get there faster. Mental health, we had
a mental health crisis unit where cops were dressed
in plain clothes and go out and talk to people
in the community. I mean, we're just
doing too much. Now, we also had
assisting agencies, right? So we'll go to a crisis
intervention call. They trained all of us officers to be crisis
intervention trained. We do our best. And then when it's done, they
don't need us, we walk away. We have the crisis team
come speak to them. But they do offer,
or they making us do too much. I don't think
that we need to be defunded. But I think they need
to start the scale back and say, "Do we really need
to go to a call where a person is suicidal and they want
to hurt themselves? They the only one in the house.
They the only one there. They're not hurt -- They just
want to kill themselves. Do we really need
to show up to that? Because when we get there, now the person
want to kill everybody 'cause we have exacerbated
the situation, and we have to shoot the man
because he's a threat. And now we get fired, and now they want to throw you
under the bus and say the police departments
should be eradicated. So I think --
-I can't -- I can't -- I can't --
I can't agree with that. I've been on suicide attempts,
and I can't agree with that, where I done literally -- literally talked somebody
out of stabbing they self, talked somebody off of
jumping off the roof. Like, I been there,
so I can't agree with that. I can't say that why would
the police be necessary for a situation like that. -But -- -I'm not saying
you should go in gung-ho. I'm not saying every --
So, if you get that call, and let's say five of your
officers get on-scene, right? Are all five going to be able
to handle the situation? No, but maybe one of them is. If you are a police officer
but you are seasoned in life -- Understand what I'm
saying to you. The police officer is just
an extension of who you are, because you knew who you were
before you became an officer. Right? Many people come into this
profession with no identity. They let this become
their identity instead of letting it
be an extension of who they are. -Why wouldn't we just send -- Why wouldn't just send
a paramedic or a fireman to a suicide?
I get what you're saying, that, you know, we can
talk people off the ledge, but we have other
emergency responders that are way less visually
threatening than we are. I would rather a EMT come in with their little T-shirt
and boots on than to see a guy, you know, with just gun,
badge, taser and all that on, I mean, if -- if I was going
through a mental crisis. I mean, we have this thing
call a command presence. And when you're thinking about,
you know, killing yourself, seeing a guy come in
looking like a action figure ain't what you want to see. I get what you're saying,
that you can have compassion. But, just, we got to think about
not for us. We got to think about
the person on the other side that's in crisis. What's going
to serve them better, us or a paramedic or a EMT or somebody that has a degree or
a skill in crisis intervention? You get what I'm saying?
Like, that -- Let's think about serving --
-Let me jump in real quick. Let me jump in
real quick, real quick. There are points and times where police officers
need to be there, right? I'm just saying that we need
to balance it out a little bit. I've talked people off a ledge.
I rescued a girl off a bridge. I talked --
A lady pulled a knife on me. She was right in front of me.
I could have shot her dead. But I was able to talk to her
because of my training. She dropped the knife. I took her to the crisis
intervention center. But there are situations
like my brother. My brother sometimes,
if you make him mad, he can be a very hot head. And when you a police officer
and you show up to a scene, you have to have control.
You can't just let a person just willy-nilly
do whatever they want. You may have to take control. That may exacerbate
the situation. I wouldn't want to cop
to come to a situation where my brother
is being frantic. I wouldn't even call
the police, to be honest. I would try
to talk -- talk him down and get a family member
to do it, because if -- if he get there,
the police don't know him. They don't know
how crazy he get, and then sometimes
he can calm down if you say the right things. They may get there.
He say something crazy. They may take it as a threat, and now things
are starting to escalate. So in certain cases,
if we can manage it properly -- I'm not saying
that police shouldn't go to any suicidal calls, but if we can
manage them properly, maybe we can we can have it to where people
are not getting killed by us, because I don't have a problem
with police officers using deadly force
against individuals. I don't have a problem.
But nowadays in the public, man, if you kill a person
and come to find out 20 days later that that person
had a mental disability and they had a propensity
for violence, they're gonna
rail police officers. So I just think we should
balance it, not get rid of it, but we should have
a fair balance. -Yeah, you know,
to Brandon's larger point, you know, we have to think about when we police officers
in schools, what are we doing? Ultimately, we're putting
police officers in a situation where they have
to make decisions, and a lot of times, the decision is either to criminalize
adolescent behavior rather than give
that young person the mental health treatment
that he needs to deal with whatever issue
they have going on. When you send police
to address street homelessness and ultimately, that
communication is not working where you get compliance, you deal with housing
insecurities by arresting someone for illegally camping
within the city limits. And this happens thousands of
times throughout the country, right, where police are provided
with limited solutions to deal with these issues,
right? So that's why we have
to really think about, like, to Brandon's point, what do we really
want the police to respond to in moments of crisis? [ Overlapping dialogue ]
-Aram -- Aram, you wanted to speak?
Go ahead, bro. I wanted to hear
what you had to say. -If you're asking if we're
expecting too much out of us, I think it's --
the answer is yes and no. Some parts of the country
don't get paid as well as other parts of the country. I'm fortunate, you know, to be
in a state where law enforcement has really good retirement pay
and benefits system. But if you're paying me
$12 an hour with no promise of retirement
and no benefits, I can't ask that individual
to go into harm's way. So pay should be commensurate to the type of officer quality
that you want. You want top quality officers,
you got to pay them top quality. The FBI crime stats indicate
officers with college degrees have less propensity
to violate policy or go outside the scope
of their authority. So, speaking to what David said,
empathy -- You know, as police officers,
we have to make decisions. So it -- I'm a sergeant
of a patrol field force. And if we have
a mental health call, somebody wants
to commit suicide, of course we'll respond. The public has asked us to help,
and we're gonna respond. But if we get there,
we have to make a decision. If the guy doesn't want our
help, and he's an adult, we have to tell the family, "I'm sorry.
He doesn't want our help. And it's not illegal
to want to kill yourself." And that's coming from a guy
whose dad committed suicide. My dad was a Vietnam vet.
He had PTSD, and, unfortunately,
I got there too late, and he committed suicide. But I was sure damn glad
the police were there. It was in another city. The police were there.
It was my peers. They they knew
exactly what to tell me to make me feel comforted. And that day, if it wasn't
for that pastor coming over to reconcile me, I don't know
what would've happened. Fast forward a couple years,
reeling with my father's death, my mom was murdered
on her porch. -Geez.
-She was shot in the head by someone that tried
to get into her house. And I'm an only child, so now I'm having to deal
with all this stuff myself. But to David's point,
life experience, I would want someone like me
to show up, you know? So I think it's important
that when we recruit officers, we recruit officers
that are career-minded, that are going to be
compensated for what they do. And instead of trying to
find out if in their background that they're not going
to be a troublemaker, we should find out
in their background if they've got life experience. It's one thing
to be street-smart. It's another thing
to be book-smart. We need a good
combination of both. And I think our background
practices need to expand to -- -There you go. There you go.
That's what I want. -Yeah, look how --
look how young we hire, though. I mean --
-Yeah. I was a -- I was
a proponent of -- At my department before I left,
I was like, "We need to stop hiring
these guys that are --" They come from being a cadet
to going into the academy, and then they're on the street
telling adults what to do. You know what I mean?
You just turned 21. We're gonna give you a badge
and gun, authority, and car, and tell you to go out here
and make life decisions where you just came out
of your mom's basement. You know? So... -And I want to add this. I think
that it's less about -- I agree with you 100%.
It's less about age and more about exposure
and experience. -Yeah.
-'Cause I joined the police department at 23 years old. But I had life experience, man. Some of my family members
were on crack. Some of them were in prison. So I've had a variety
of experiences that put me in a position that when I became
a police officer, I could talk to anybody,
you know? I could talk to the crack addict because my auntie
was a crack addict. So I could talk
and be empathetic. I also went to college.
So people who are more educated, I was able to
communicate well with them. -I think what's
critically important about what Brandon is talking about is we need to also look at who are elected
officials appointing to be leading
police departments, right? So those same lived experiences that Brandon and David and Aram
are talking about are not really representative
of the police chiefs and police commissioners that are leading
our law enforcement agencies. There's a study that's gonna
come out by Hamilton College where they can say
police departments that are led by African-American, Hispanic police chiefs
or police commissioners, per capita rate
fatality shootings are 70% lower
than those departments that are led by Caucasian police
chiefs or police commissioners. So that lived experience
not only benefits officers that are coming
through the rank and file, but it also needs to be
represented in the positions of chiefs of police and police
commissioners in this country. And it's not. It's very lacking. -I would -- -I want to just pivot to
something else really quickly. For the group, by show of hands, who here has personally seen
excessive force used on the job? ♪♪ Almost everyone. Okay. Keep your hand raised if you did
something in that moment. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪
