>> Simon on the Democratic
side. No one is bothering to mention it, but there is a
human being running against Joe Biden and that human being who
is a member of Congress. Dean Phillips got so far has
2.8% of the vote that is spent 10% of the vote that Nikki Haley
has got. Nikki Haley is at 28% as of right now from flirting
with 30%. And so you when you put Joe Biden up against an
actual human being in the Democratic Party, that human
being can get all of 2.8% versus Donald Trump who warning
goes against a real human being and Republican primary loses
30% and in previous to of primaries 40%. And the question
tonight, what we don't know because there's no exit polls.
You know. All right, congratulations. Exit poll
business. They're doing nothing tonight. So the only question
that matters on the Republican side of that primary is how
many of those Nikki Haley voters will not vote for Donald
Trump in November. And we have no exit polling information to
answer that question. >> Yeah, I mean, as you've
mentioned or is that we talked on this show me one of the most
remarkable statistics we've seen so far in the election is
these early voters in the 3 early states willingness to not
just not vote for Trump to devote provide. And I mean,
it's a big consequential event. But I want to say that if Trump
got 60% of South Carolina and it was a wrong and a blowout
and he's getting in the Mid 60's here tonight and it's a
big win for Joe Biden, getting 80% is a really big when a
really good night for Joe Biden. And I think that this
idea that somehow this uncommitted movement would strikes somehow alter the
Democratic Party's trajectory, I think hasn't happened
tonight. I mean, remember that, you know, Frank Obama and just
in 2012 when he was running for reelection, the UN committee
got 11% of the vote. It's going to be probably 14,
15 tonight. Really not a huge difference. And Obama went on
to win the general election against Michigan, native Mitt
Romney by 9 points. And so I don't think things have really
changed tonight in the Democratic Party. I don't think
this was a good night for the uncommitted, but it was a good
night for Joe Biden. I will say that once again, we don't have
a lot of polling in Michigan. The polls that were done in
February had Trump above, you know, winning by 50 points
or more. He's winning tonight by high 30's, low 40's. So once
again, you know, based on public polling, Donald Trump is
underperforming the public polls that are available to us
as he's done in the 3 early states earlier this this
election cycle. >> So what we've seen since
1968 was on the for the first time we ever saw one of the
incumbent president was up for reelection and someone within
that party challenge the incumbent president. The worst thing that can happen
for the incumbent president is that that challenger, that
human being get votes. That's what Lyndon Johnson signed New
Hampshire. Jeanne McCarthy got 42% of the vote and Lyndon
Johnson dropped out of the presidential race. Not because
he thought Jane McCarthy could beat him to the nomination.
He was sure he would get the nomination of the convention in
Chicago because that's what was really going to be decided was
going to decide by Primers. But the signal Lyndon Johnson
got from that New Hampshire vote was I can't win in
November. This is too much weakness within my own party
for me to win in November. And that's why why he dropped
out. What when you look at this vote on an committed, which is
which is one that I fully respect strategically of the
people who want to cast too, to deliver this expression of
this is a this is based on policy that we care about.
We think the president is failing us on this one policy
and only on this one policy on no other Paulus. This is not a
vote for a person. They could have put up a candidate they
could have gone today. In Phillips, Dean Phillips says he
wants a cease-fire. He said in December he wants a cease-fire.
They refused, refused to vote for Dean Phillips and they cast
a vote that says to the president were not with you
tonight. That's all let votes as we are uncommitted tonight.
And what I've been hearing from the certainly from the
politicians have been leading that movement in Michigan is
none of them are saying they won't be with Joe Biden in
November against Donald Trump. >> Yeah, as we also have to be
a little bit careful tonight and not exaggerating the role
of the delegate or 2 here. I mean, I've helped run the delegate operations in the
floor of Democratic conventions and having a delegate or 2 is,
you know, not a significant achievement. I mean, many times
during presidential primaries that, you know, cause or a
candidate will pick up a few delegates here. And there, you
know, because it became a question of how much energy
should the Biden campaign really put into this to deny
the 15%? And I think made a decision that they can handle.
You know, they're being this kind of opposition of the
delegate to the Democratic convention, given that there
are thousands of delegates from. And so, you know that I I
think it's just very important to recognize that to not
exaggerate on our site. The significance of what's happened
tonight. I mean, I think obviously, I also just want to
say for the record that Joe Biden has been for a cease-fire
to actually negotiated a cease-fire. He actually trying
to negotiate a cease-fire right now. I mean, you can. And if
you look at, you know, I just looked at the Economist YouGov
poll from last week among Democrats, Biden's approval on
foreign policy is and is in the upper 70's. His disapproval is
in the low 20's. The party is with him and what he's doing.
I mean, you can be for cease-fire and still be for Joe
Biden, you know, backing Joe Biden, what he's doing in the
Middle East. This is an important discussion
we're having in the family know we're not all together on this.
And it's important that we hear this out and continue
respectful debate inside the family's a tough issue. But I
think this notion that there is some kind of huge backlash
against Biden on this issue. I think he's been disproven
tonight, actually, not proven in mind you. >> Oh, well, you know, I I want
to do both. I want I want to give that movement the
strategic respect it deserves, especially including the
decision not to put up a candidate, the decision to say
we simply want to deliver this message at the ballot box.
We're going to actively go out and vote and we're going to
vote for a black. We're going to do that as a way of
expressing ourselves, which is much I want to say weaker, but
it is a softer objection then going out there the way voters
were out there for Gene McCarthy in 1968 because those
voters were 100% against Lyndon Johnson when they cast that
vote and there was no way of the world. They were going to
vote for Lyndon Johnson in November. >> Right. Or Ted Kennedy in
1980, or some of the orders and this election, right, as you
it's important. The distinction you're drawing year, which is
that this isn't there isn't an opposition movement of
significance inside the Democratic Party. And I think
this is we can have a respectful debate. We don't
have to agree and everything's Democrats and some of them are
crusie is all about. This is a healthy debate we're having as
long as it stays respectful and we stay on the same team.
And I think that, you know, it is to your point. I I I take
your point, but it's right that this was a thoughtful and serious way of
addressing concerns about the Biden presidency. But I also
think that I'm I'm proud of the president tonight. I think this
was a very big win for him. And I don't think it really
alters the trajectory of the Democratic primary in any way
but will see, right? We've got a long way to go, Alexis to
come and I'll be back here with you. Many, many types of the
buttons. And I just think what's going on. But I think
that I I go back to this basic reality where we are 6 times in
2022. Right. Democrats keep over performing. Republicans
keep struggling and it's why I'm so optimistic about what's
going to happen this fall. >> What we were hearing from
from Biden voters today are concerns about the issues like
this specifically and then stressing Joe Biden's
experience and what they call his success in office. And so
that that the achievement list of the Biden administration is
something that we were hearing bits and pieces of it back from
voters today. >> It's absolutely true.
And and we see the evidence of it throughout my district.
The bipartisan infrastructure law at work, replacing lead
pipes it throughout my district, investing in our
airport. And again, you know, policies that the
administration has taken to protect women's reproductive
freedom. It's on the record and the contrast could not be
clearer. And especially in the wake this Alabama Supreme Court
decision surrounding IVF, deeply personal issue to so
many people. And you know, what happens in Alabama is not
going to stay in Alabama. The voters know this. I'm 125
Republicans have co-sponsored a bill. I'm recognizing a fetal
right to life without an exception to protect a woman's
right to make her family whole family's right to make their
families whole through IVF. >> And that that's a bill that
if it ever got to Joe Biden, he would veto instantaneously.
There's no doubt about it. And Republicans in the Senate
have also refused, refused to even allow a vote that the
Democrats in the Senate want to have on protecting in vitro
fertilization. >> It's it's true. Senator
Tammy Duckworth is expected to try to brand her bill up protecting has the right to
build the family to the Senate floor. Republicans are saying
they're going to block it. I'm a proud co-sponsor of the
houses counterpart to that Bill. We're going to do
everything we can to make sure that that bill gets a vote,
including bringing it by a discharge petition. If we have
to, we're going to hold Republicans accountable to
this. They're they're trying to backtrack now, you know, you
can hear their tires. Screech is around the world. As you
know, they get their talking points memo from the National
Republican Party as the first woman and mother in history to
represent my district. I don't need anybody to give me a memo
on how to talk about women's reproductive freedom. This is a
deeply personal issue. It belongs with the women and
their doctors themselves and not with these politicians in
Washington who you can't even understand the basic biological
concepts of of how this works. It's been painful trying to
listen to them. You know, it twist themselves into knots
about how they can support these bills and also idea at
the same time, again, we don't have to resort to hyperbole
about these things that the facts simply speak for
themselves. Republicans and voted against women's rights,
trusting women with their own bodies. These critical
decisions time and time again and women are speaking out,
especially even in places like traditionally conservative West
Michigan, where I come from a many voters voting for the very
first time for pro-choice candidates. >> We don't know yet how many
uncommitted voters there are in your district tonight voting
that way. Surely, you know them surely have spoken to them.
They've spoken to you. What are they are any of them or many of
them telling you that they won't vote for Joe Biden in
November? And what are you telling them? >> I'm I'm telling them that
the beautiful part of this democracy is that they have
this process through, which they can register at their
complaints and their feelings. And I think, you know, that is
one thing that we have have seen in this process. This is
this is democracy work. And, you know, I think the numbers
will remain to be seen. Obviously, Joe Biden was the
decisive winner in the Democratic primary. Tonight.
We are squaring off again for a Trump Biden rematch. And I
think when voters are presented with that stark contrast of Joe
Biden's record and Trump's record, Joe Biden's vision for
America and Trump's vision for America, that contrast will
make sure it will just send voters rushing to the polls
again for Joe Biden as they did in in 2022. Because we've seen
the devastating consequences of a Trump presidency and we know
that a second term could be even worse. >> Barber, the what's so
fascinating about this for me is, is you get into a thing
that I've just been thinking about vaguely and mostly and
wonder how do you get these people to
believe this nonsense weitkamp a separate fact from fiction.
But you actually get in here and show which wires connect to
what? >> Yes. So if you know, you
look at history, what Mussolini and Hitler did, the tactics
really haven't changed. Maybe the delivery mechanism is
changed a little bit with social media cable television.
But the messages are very similar to the ones that we
saw. Hitler and Mussolini use. A very simple message is
repeatable. Little slogans like stop the Steal. What Hitler
wrote about in mind comp make the live big. Everybody tells
little lies but would not have the audacity to tell a lie
about something so significant. And so the fact that the truck,
the ally that Trump has told about a stolen election is so
big that ironically it becomes more believable. So those
tactics have been documented throughout history. The and the
thing that. >> The reason why I always
fought or fought we we could just assume a way that part of
history, those those dictators all
controlled their in their news media. There was no other voice
in Russia than Stalin and the Soviet Union or in Germany and
Hitler. What we have here, what's
happened is 2 fold or has select to in a way to shut off
all other information source and take the FOX propaganda and
all the right wing in the Trump property. >> Yeah, you know, we have now
assorted ourselves into news bubbles where we listen to one
side of information or another on social media. You know, you
heard that woman say all my friends voted for Donald Trump.
I'm sure she is in a Facebook group, a group with a group of
people and perhaps she watches FOX News. All she ever hears is
the repeat of these ideas of a rigged election and that the
investigations against Donald Trump, our voter in
interference. And so she lives in that because you're still in
some ways you're raising a good point that it replicates some
of those controlled media's of prior decades. How do you
penetrated? Yeah, I think a couple of ways.
One is we have to get people out of their basements in off
the Internet and into the real world. We need to be engaging
with people on a human scale and not just a talking at each
other online online. People are 4 of them. We're horrible to
each other. We hide behind false personas or even just the
nastiness that can be there when not seen a human being
face to face. So I think we have to see people face to
face. I also think we have to understand that when someone
has been duped, the last thing they want to hear is how
foolish they have been. When I was a prosecutor, we often
dealt with crime victims, people with the victims of
fraud and they felt change in having fallen for these things.
So I think we have to show people crace. We have to ask
them what is the evidence that they are citing and pointing to
to reach their conclusions and try to help them see that
evidence is necessary for us to reach conclusions. But I think
we have to do with grace and not with dunking on people by
telling them. I told you so. >> Michigan is one of the great
places to study this since those ban. You know, those
people who tried to kidnap and murder the governor that
there's been this outburst of the most fanatical kind of
behavior at the extreme end of what this book is about. >> Yeah. And you know, one of
the points I make in the book is that how this information is
creating dangers to public safety and the rule of law.
And so when people are out there ginning up false claims,
people become very angry. Why is this happening? Why
isn't our law enforcement doing something about this incident
become inclined to take the law into their own hands, which is
what we saw with the plot to kidnap Governor Whitmer and
make a citizens arrest or what we saw on January 6 that the
U.S. Capitol people didn't like what they heard and they
thought it was so unjust that they were going to take the law
into their own hands. And that's when things become
chaotic and incredibly dangerous. >> Having studied this of more
closely than the rest of us have. Where are you in the hope
versus hopelessness curve? >> Yeah, I worry that it's
going to get worse before it gets better. But I do think
there's hope. I think there are a couple things that we need to
do. One is we need to change some laws and have more
regulation in social media. We have a lot of these giants
to grow up and in many ways they've created wonderful,
innovative products. But without any regulation, they
will defeat us with artificial intelligence and all the other
things. And there are some modest proposals there for
regulation. But I also think that we need to persuade people
about the importance of truth. I think some people have been
duped by the lies that have been fed to them in recent
years. But I think there are many other people who are
willing to go along with the kind because they're choosing
tribe over truth. And so they want to align themselves with a
particular party and it doesn't matter to them what the facts
are. You know, I just don't want to shoot someone on 5th
Avenue and not lose any voters. And I think he's right and we
need to care again that if we're going to have a democracy
than facts matter. >> How much of it is Donald
Trump when Donald Trump goes away, which is either next year
or 4 years from now? Does this does this thing?
Does the stuff start to deflate? >> I don't know, but he
certainly was the disrupter who caused it. But we now see a lot
of people who have watched and learned his his tactics.
I worry that the next one comes along could be even better at
it. But we see people like Jim Jordan in Congress who's
leading the investigations into the weaponization of
government, which is, of course, just treating
investigations on their head. We have seen members of the
Republican Party try to impeach Joe Biden based on not just
false and for the lack of information but false
information. And so I worry that now that this tactic is in
their hands, that we can see other people try to wield it. >> But real quick, great to
have you here on Michigan's big night. Thanks very much for
joining us. Barbers book is called Attack from within right
here. It is available right now.
