NOTABLE MOMENS FROM THEIR TWO DEBATES IN 2020. AND ONE OF THEM, TRUMP WAS ON SOMETHING. >> THE QUESTION IS -- >> -- RADICAL LEFT. >> WOULD YOU SHUT UP, MAN. >> WE HAVE ENDED THIS SEGMENT. WE'LL MOVE ON TO THE SECOND SEGMENT. >> THAT WAS A REALLY PRODUCTIVE SEGMENT, WASN'T IT? KEEP YAPPING, MAN. >> WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO CONDEMN? THE PROUD BOYS -- STAND BACK AND STAND BY. HERE'S THE THING -- >> I ASKED TO GET THE KILLER OF THE YOUNG MAN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET. THEY SHOT HIM. >> PRESIDENT TRUMP -- PRESIDENT TRUMP -- >> WOULD YOU CLOSE DOWN THE -- >> BY THE WAY, I WOULD TRANSITION FROM THE OIL INDUSTRY, YES. >> OH, THAT'S A STATEMENT. >> THE OIL INDUSTRY POLLUTES -- >>H, I SEE. >> HERE'S THE DEAL. >> THAT'S A BIG STATEMENT. >> IF YOU WOULD LET ME FINISH THE STATEMENT. >> BIDEN TO RESPOND -- >> I HAVE NEVER SAID I OPPOSE THE FRACKING. >> YOU SAID IT ON TAPE. >> SHOW THE TAPE. PUT IT ON YOUR WEBSITE. >> I'LL PUT IT ON. >> PUT IT ON YOUR WEBSITE. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS HE'S FLAT LYING. >> NOT SINCE ABRAHAM LINCOLN HAS ANYBODY DONE WHAT I'VE DONE FOR THE BLACK COMMUN -- NOW, YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING, OTHER THAN THE CRIME BILL -- >> OH, GOD. >> OH, GOD, IS RIGHT. I'M TELLING YOU, WHY DEBATE THAT GUY? FIRST OF ALL, HE DOESN'T DEBATE ANYBODY ELSE. HE DOESN'T DEBATE REPUBLICANS, HE DOESN'T DEBATE NIKKI HALEY, HE DOESN'T DEBATE ANYBODY. WHAT'S TRUMP GOING TO DO WITHIN SAY, OH, JOE BIDEN, HE'S AFRAID TO DEBATE ME, WHEN DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN LIVING IN FEAR OF DEBATING NIKKI HALEY FOR MONTHS. THE SECOND THING IS, THE GUY JUST LIES, HE MAKES STUFF UP ALL THE TIME. SO, YOU KNOW, IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. ANYWAY, ALEXI, IN YOUR PIECE, YOU WRITE IN PART THIS, I RE-WATCHED THE 2020 TRUMP/BIDEN DEBATE MODERATED BY CHRIS WALLACE AND IT ONLY CONFIRMED TO ME THAT BIDEN SHOULDN'T DO IT AGAIN. MY NECK WAS SORE FROM SHAKING MY HEAD SO MUCH. SKIPPING A DEBATE WITH TRUMP, WHICH TO BE CLEAR, IS NOT SOMETHING THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN HAS PROPOSED DOING, WOULD BE CONSISTENT WITH ITS SELECTIVE MEDIA STRATEGY SO FAR. IT'S ALSO TRUE THAT DEBATES SERVE A USEFUL PURPOSE. KATHLEEN HALL JAMIESON PASSIONATELY MADE A CASE FOR THEM IN A 2012 POST OP-ED ARGUING, DEBATES AND OTHER TELEVISED PRESENTATIONS ARE CONDUCTIVE TO HONESTLY EXPLAINING SOME MORE COMPLEX TOPICS. STILL, I'M NOT CONVINCED ANOTHER TRUMP/BIDEN DEBATE WOULD BE WORTH IT. WHEN TRUMP'S ON THE STAGE, ANXIOUS VOTERS CAN'T EXPECT MUCH HONEST EXPLANATION ABOUT ANYTHING. THEY ALSO CAN'T EXPECT ANY RATIONAL DISCUSSION OF THE ISSUES THAT ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT TO THEM. >> THOSE CLIPS YOU SHOWED NOW, I'M LIKE STRESSED INTERNALLY, FROM THE CROSS-TALK. I'M LIKE, I HATE CONFLICT, I HATE THIS. BUT YOU CAN BARELY EVEN GET A WORD IN EDGEWISE. I COULD BARELY UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY WERE DISCUSSING. WHEN JOE BIDEN WOULD TRY TO ANSWER A QUESTION IN GOOD FAITH, TRUMP WOULD GIVE HIM MAYBE THREE TO FIVE SECONDS AND THEN JUMP IN WITH SOMETHING TOTALLY DERAILING IT. HE'S MORE ERRATIC THAN EVER BEFORE, TRUMP. THE HUNTER BIDEN ISSUE, THE TRIALS, THE INVESTIGATIONS, EVERY OTHER WORD FROM TRUMP WOULD BE SCREAMING ABOUT HUNTER BIDEN, THE CORRUPT BIDEN FAMILY. IT WOULD BE A DISASTER FOR EVERYONE AND NOT HELPFUL TO ANY VOTERS. PLUS, PEOPLE KNOW THEIR CHARACTERS. I THINK A DEBATE BETWEEN TRUMP AND BIDEN WOULD MOSTLY JUST SHOW THEIR PERSONALITY AND CHARACTER AT THIS POINT, AND EVERYBODY KNOWS EXACTLY WHO THESE TWO MEN ARE, SO WE DON'T NEED TWO EXCRUCIATING HOURS OF THEM YELLING OVER EACH OTHER. >> AND PETER BAKER, WITH DONALD TRUMP, HE HAS BECOME MORE ERRATIC, MORE RADICAL, HE HAS BECOME LOUDER OVER THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS. AND PLAYS BY ABSOLUTELY NO RULES. AND IT SEEMS TO ME, IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A DEBATE THAT ENLIGHTENS AND INFORMS, YOU HAVE TO HAVE TWO PEOPLE. LET'S GO BACK TO 2012. YOU HAVE TO HAVE BARACK OBAMA AND MITT ROMNEY, WHO WILL AT LEAST FOLLOW BASIC GUIDELINES, SO PEOPLE CAN LEARN ABOUT THE ISSUES AND THE CANDIDATES. WE WOULD NOT HAVE THAT HERE WITH DONALD TRUMP. >> PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THAT A DEBATE IS MEANT TO TEST CANDIDATES AND TO SHOW WHETHER THEY HAVE COMMAND OF THE ISSUES AND TO FORCE THEM TO ANSWER QUESTIONS THAT ARE UNCOMFORTABLE. SO, IF WE DON'T HAVE A DEBATE, FINE, BUT ARE THERE GOING TO BE OTHER OPPORTUNITIES FOR US TO DO THAT WITH THESE TWO PEOPLE, THESE TWO MEN? THAT'S A REAL PROBLEM. NEITHER ONE OF THEM FRANKLY IS TAKING QUESTIONS FROM HARD QUESTIONERS. DONALD TRUMP DID GIVE AN INTERVIEW TO KRISTEN WELKER FOR "MEET THE PRESS" AND JOE BIDEN HAS FROM TIME TO TIME GIVEN INTERVIEWS TO STEPHANIE RUHLE AND OTHERS FROM THIS NETWORK, FOR INSTANCE, BUT BROADLY SPEAKING, NEITHER ONE OF THEM IS DOING THE KIND OF INTERVIEWS AND TAKING QUESTIONS IN HARD WAY FROM REPORTERS THAT PREVIOUS GENERATIONS HAVE, AND THAT'S A REAL PROBLEM. >> AND THAT MATTERS BECAUSE, I'VE GOTTEN EMAILS FROM READERS WHO ARE LIKE, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE A TRUMP/BIDEN DEBATE, BECAUSE I WOULD LIKE TO SEE JUST HOW MUCH OR WHETHER EACH MAN HAS MENTALLY DECLINED SINCE 2020. THAT'S SOMETHING ELSE THAT PEOPLE COULD POTENTIALLY GLEAN FROM A DEBATE LIKE THAT, BUT BIDEN IS OLDER, NOT NECESSARILY AS SHARP AS HE WAS IN 2020. I THINK IT WOULD BE A LITTLE MORE DIFFICULT TO KEEP UP WITH SOMEONE LIKE TRUMP THIS TIME AROUND, WHO AS WE HAVE SAID, IS MORE ERRATIC, MORE UNPREDICTABLE, AND VIEWS SOMETHING LIKE THIS AS NOT AN EXCHANGE OF AN IDEAS OR A DEFENSE OF HIS OWN IDEAS, BUT SORT OF LIKE A BACKYARD BRAWL, ALMOST. >> WILLIE, IT WOULD BE A COUPLE OF HOURS OF INSULTS. AND AGAIN, IF YOU'RE DONALD TRUMP'S TEAM, IF YOU'RE DONALD TRUMP, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY IF JOE BIDEN IS LIKE, NO, I'M NOT GOING TO GET DOWN IN THE MUD WITH THE PIGS HERE. I'M NOT GOING TO DEBATE -- WHAT'S HE GOING TO SAY WHEN CHRIS CHRISTIE WAS CALLING DONALD TRUMP A COWARD DEBATE AFTER DEBATE AFTER DEBATE, FOR DONALD TRUMP BEING AFRAID TO DEBATE CHRIS CHRISTIE. WHAT'S HE GOING TO SAY WHEN NIKKI HALEY IS SAYING, YOU KNOW, CHALLENGING HIM TO ONE DEBATE AFTER ANOTHER DEBATE AFTER ANOTHER DEBATE, AND HE'S AFRAID TO DEBATE THEM, TOO. HE CAN'T JUST DECIDE AFTER SAYING "NO" TO 16, 20, 30 DETECTIVES, OH, WAIT, WAIT, NOW WE WANT TO DEBATE THIS ONE TIME. IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. >> YEAH, I MEAN, REFUSING AGAIN AND AGAIN IN THIS CASE TO DEBATE NIKKI HALEY, THINKING HE'S PUNCHING DOWN IN SOME WAY, HE THINKS HE'S ALREADY WRAPPED UP THE NOMINATION, BUT PERHAPS IT'S MORE LIKELY THAT SHE'S SMART, EXPERIENCED, NIMBLE, YOUNG, VITAL, ALL THE THINGS THAT MAYBE HE'S NOT AND MIGHT RUN CIRCLES AROUND HIM IN A DEBATE. AND TO ALEXI'S POINT, JOHN, THAT WAS -- THE CLIPS WE JUST WATCHED WERE THREE AND A HALF YEARS AGO, THOSE TWO MEN WERE THREE AND A HALF YEARS SHARPER, PERHAPS, THAN THEY ARE NOW. IS THE WHITE HOUSE, IS THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN EXPECTING DEBATES THIS FALL? >> BOTH MEN LOOK DIFFERENT TODAY THAN THEY DID IN THOSE CLIPS FROM THREE AND A HALF YEARS AGO. I THINK THERE'S AN EXPECTATION OF THE DEBATE PROBABLY DOES NOT HAPPEN. FIRST OF ALL, TRUMP AND HAS TURNED THE REPUBLICANS WITH HIM, SUGGESTING THEY WERE BIASED, THEY HAD RIGGED PREVIOUS DEBATES, REMEMBER THIS NONSENSE ABOUT THE MICROPHONE? AND LAST TIME AROUND, BECAUSE HE GOT COVID AND THERE WAS A REAL SUGGESTION THAT HE HAD COVID IN THAT FIRST DEBATE, SO THEREFORE, THE COMMITTEE TRIED TO MAKE THE SECOND ONE REMOTE, HE SAID "NO." THERE'S A LOT OF BAD BLOOD THERE BETWEEN TRUMP. WE WOULD SEE IF THAT WOULD EVEN HAPPEN. IT MIGHT HAVE TO BE UNDER THE UMBRELLA OF A DIFFERENT ORGANIZATION. THAT WOULD BE COMPLICATED. THE BIDEN PEOPLE I TALKED TO DO THINK THAT IF TRUMP SAYS HE'S GOING TO DEBATE AND REALLY GOES THROUGH WITH IT, AND TRUMP HAS SAID HE WANTS TO, HE WOULD PROBABLY HAVE TO. THEY FEEL LIKE IT WOULD LOOK AS IF HE'S DUCKING HIM. AND BIDEN AND DEMOCRATS FACY THEMSELVES THE SIDE OF GOOD, AND DEBATES ARE GOOD FOR AN ELECTION. THEY'RE THE DEFENDERS OF DEMOCRACY. WE SHOULD HAVE DEBATES. AND BIDEN WOULD BE BOXED IN AND PROBABLY HAVE TO GO THROUGH WITH THE DEBATE IF TRUMP REALLY WANTS ONE, BUT THEY CERTAINLY HAVE WAYS OUT OF IT, AS YOU JUST LISTED AND SAID, THIS GUY HASN'T PARTICIPATED IN ANY DEBATES, WHY SHOULD WE GIVE HIM THIS OPPORTUNITY? BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN THINK THAT TRUMP WILL BLINK AND IT WON'T ACTUALLY HAPPEN. >> WELL, I THINK TRUMP COULD BLINK. YOU GO BACK, AND IF I'M RUNNING TRUMP'S CAMPAIGN, GOD HELP ME, AND I'M NOT SAYING THIS -- I'M NOT BEING FACETIOUS, I'M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT A GUY THAT GOES OUT AT NIGHT, GIVES A SPEECH IN FRONT OF A FRIENDLY CROWD, AND HE CAN'T REMEMBER WHO HE RAN AGAINST IN 2016, HE CAN'T REMEMBER WHO HE RAN AGAINST IN 2020, HE CAN'T REMEMBER WHO HE'S RUNNING AGAINST IN 2024. HE JOKES THE NAME OBAMA OUT OF HIS MOUTH AND COMES BACK TO, BECAUSE IT'S THE ONLY NAME THAT HIS BRAIN CAN RETAIN. OF COURSE, WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED HE STARTED -- HE'S LIKE, NIKKI, NIKKI, NIKKI, AND WENT ON -- AGAIN, DID THE SAME SORT OF THING, WHERE HE SORT OF CHOKED HER LAST NAME OUT, WENT ON TO TALK, AND HE CAME BACK TO NIKKI HALEY, WHO HE THOUGHT WAS SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE. YOU KNOW, KATTY, MAYBE THEY BLUFF, MAYBE THE TRUMP TEAM BLUFFS. BUT IT JUST TAKES SOMETHING LIKE THAT WITH DONALD TRUMP, WHETHER SEEMS FAR MORE PRONE TO MAKING THESE TYPES OF MISTAKES. BECAUSE IF JOE BIDEN SAYS "MEXICO" INSTEAD OF EGYPT, HE COMPLETES THE THOUGHT AND COMES BACK, AND HE'S EXPLAINING THE PROCESS, AND HE COMES BACK TO EGYPT AND SISI, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS NOT BEEN CAPABLE OF DOING. YOU GO BACK AND LOOK AT DEBATES, 1976, GERALD FORD MAKES THE BLUNDER ON POLAND. IT MAY HAVE COST HIM THE PRESIDENCY. '88, MICHAEL DUKAKIS FINISHED HIMSELF OFF FOR GOOD WHEN HE HAD THAT ANSWER ABOUT KITTY DUKAKIS, FROM BERNIE SHAW. I THINK THEY'RE TRYING TO PROTECT TRUMP A BIT MORE, BECAUSE HE GOES OUT AND LOSES TRAIN OF THOUGHT AND STARTS SAYING REALLY STUPID THINGS. SO I'M NOT SO SURE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE THE TRUMPERS EAGER TO HAVE THIS DEBATE. >> ONE THING THAT YOU KNOW, A DEBATE WITH TRUMP IS NEVER GOING TO BE IS AN HONEST EXPLANATION OF COMPLEX TOPICS. THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. WHAT IS THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN WORRIED ABOUT? WHEN I SPEAK TO THEM, THEY FEEL LIKE THEY'RE IN A GOOD PLACE IN TERMS OF THEY'RE LINING UP POLICIES, THEY THINK THEIR OPERATION IS GETTING BETTER. THEY'VE GOT A PLAN FOR THE FIRST 100 DAYS, WHICH THEY DIDN'T HAVE FIRST TIME AROUND. THE ONE THING THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT, DONALD TRUMP. THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT MIGHT COME OUT OF HIS MOUTH. WELL, IF HE'S IN A DEBATE SITUATION LIKE WE SAW HIM JUST THERE, GETTING EXERCISED AND EMOTIONAL, THAT IS WHEN DONALD TRUMP SAYS THINGS LIKE NIKKI HALEY IS A BIRDBRAIN, OR YOU KNOW, HE DENIGRATES PEOPLE, OR HE'S RUDE ABOUT PEOPLE, OR THROWS OUT GRATUITOUS, OFFENSIVE THINGS. THAT'S WHAT HIS CAMPAIGN IS WORRIED ABOUT HIM DOING ON THE STUMP ANYWAY, BECAUSE WHO DOES THAT ALIENATE? ALL OF THOSE SUBURBAN VOTERS WE WERE TALKING ABOUT IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE SHOW. >> AND BY THE WAY, HE MANGLES THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE WHEN HE HE'S READING THE TELEPROMPTER. >> HE DOES. >> HE LOSES HIS TRAIN OF THOUGHT AND GETS LOST, EVEN WHEN HE'S READING THE TELEPROMPTER. >> TO SOME EXTENT, HE'S ALWAYS DONE THAT AND HIS DIE-HARD SUPPORTERS FORGIVE HIM FOR THAT ANYWAY. I THINK IT'S THE GRATUITOUS, OFFENSIVE THINGS THAT HE SAYS THAT PARTICULARLY WORRY THE CAMPAIGN IN TERMS OF TURNING OFF SUBURBAN WOMEN VOTERS. AND IN A HIGH-TENSE
