>> WHILE THIS DEFENDANT MAYBE
UNLIKE ANY OTHER IN AMERICAN HISTORY. WE ARRIVED AT THIS TRIAL AND ULTIMATELY TODAY AT THIS
VERDICT IN THE SAME MANNER AS EVERY
OTHER CASE THAT COMES TO THE COURTROOM DOORS BY FOLLOWING THE FACTS AND THE
LAW IN DOING SO WITHOUT FEAR OR
FAVOR MANY VOICES OUT THERE. THE ONLY VOICE THAT MATTERS IS THE VOICE OF THE JURY AND THE JURY HAS SPOKEN. >> MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY
ALVIN BRAGG SPEAKING YESTERDAY FOLLOWING THE HISTORIC
CONVICTION. FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP ON ALL 34 COUNTS
AND THE CRIMINAL HUSH MONEY TRIAL. TRUMP BECOMES THE FIRST FORMER
U.S. PRESIDENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY TO BE CONVICTED OF A
CRIME. THE VERDICT WAS READ JUST AROUND 05:00PM IN A NEW
YORK CITY COURTROOM. AFTER THE 12 JURORS DELIBERATED FOR
ROUGHLY 9 AND A HALF HOURS OVER 2 DAYS. EACH OF THE 34 FELONY
COUNTS IS ASSOCIATED WITH FALSIFIED BUSINESS RECORDS
PERTAINING TO TRUMP'S REIMBURSEMENT OF HIS FORMER
ATTORNEY AND FIXER, MICHAEL COHEN FOR A HUSH MONEY PAYMENT
TO ADULT FILM ACTRESS STORMY DANIELS DURING THE 2016
PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN TO KEEP HER QUIET ABOUT A SEXUAL
ENCOUNTER. SHE SAYS SHE HAD WITH TRUMP BACK IN 2006 TRUMP
HAS DENIED HER CLAIM. SENTENCING IS SET FOR JULY 11TH
JUST 4 DAYS BEFORE THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL CONVENTION
BEGINS IN MILWAUKEE'S A MAXIMUM SENTENCE FOR FALL SUFFOCATION
OF BUSINESS RECORDS. IT'S 4 YEARS IN PRISON BUT
INCARCERATION IS NOT A MANDATORY SENTENCE. IT WILL BE
A JUDGE WON RASHAAN WHO ULTIMATELY DECIDES THE
PUNISHMENT ALONG WITH JOE. WILLIE AND MAYBE WE HAVE TO
HOST OF WAY TO REALLY WHAT HAS BARED TEETH THAT POLITICO
JONATHAN LEMAIRE US SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT FOR BBC NEWS,
KATTY KAY, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR MIKE BARNICLE, FORMER LITIGATOR
ON MSNBC LEGAL CORRESPONDENT LISA RUBIN, FORMER U.S.
ATTORNEY AND MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR CHUCK ROSENBERG AND MSNBC LEGAL
ANALYST DANNY CEVALLOS. GOOD TO HAVE YOU ALL WITH US. >> AND SHOCK. I CARE IS YOUR
FIRST IMPRESSIONS OF WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY. WHAT
AMERICANS SHOULD BE LOOKING AT WHAT YOU THEY SHOULD BE
FOCUSING ON AS WE MOVE FORWARD. >> YEAH, IT'S GOING TO BE HARD,
I THINK FOR OUR VERY DIVIDED COUNTRY. JOE, THE LOOK AT THIS. >> THE WAY I DO. >> I THINK IT'S RELATIVELY
SIMPLE. THE GOVERNMENT PRESENTED A COMPELLING CASE.
THEY DO STAY AT THE FACTS. THEY WANTED TO A DEUCE. THEY
CALL THE WITNESSES. THEY WANT TO THE CALL ASKING THE
QUESTIONS. THEY WANT TO ASK HIM AND THE JURY UNDERSTOOD IT.
JURIES OFTEN DO THEY MEAN STATISTICALLY SPEAKING, MOST
JURIES CONVICT MOST OF THE TIME. AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED
HERE. BUT, YOU KNOW, I WAS THINKING ABOUT BELIEVE IT OR
NOT, A NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION POLL SHOW THAT SHOWS
THAT ABOUT A QUARTER OF AMERICANS. AND THIS HAS BEEN
CONSISTENT OVER TIME, BELIEVE THAT THE SUN REVOLVES AROUND
THE EARTH. YOU KNOW, FOR THOSE OF YOU KEEPING SCORE AT HOME,
IT DOESN'T. AND SO I THINK IT'S HARD TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT
WHAT HAPPENED IN NEW YORK HAPPENS ROUTINELY AND REGULARLY AROUND THE COUNTRY. JURIES HEAR
THE FACTS. THEY DELIVER IT, THEY DELIVER THEIR VERDICT AND
WE NEED TO ACCEPT THAT PLAIN AND SIMPLE. >> SO LISA RUBIN, YOU'VE BEEN
COVERING THIS SO CLOSELY DOWN AT THE COURTHOUSE, RIGHT FROM
THE BEGINNING, GIVING US YOUR ANALYSIS AND SERVE READING SOME
TEA LEAVES IN THE LAST FEW DAYS. I THINK THE PROSECUTION
HOPED FOR, BUT PROBABLY DIDN'T EXPECT TO CLEAN. 34 FOR 34
SWEEP ON EVERY COUNT TO GET CONVICTIONS ON THOSE. WHAT'S
YOUR REACTION TO THE VERDICT? >> W****, I WAS IN THE
COURTROOM YESTERDAY FOR THE VERDICT. AND I CAN TELL YOU
THAT JUST THE VERY EXISTENCE OF A VERDICT WAS A HUGE SHOCK TO
EVERYONE THERE, GIVEN THE FACT THAT JUDGE WERE SHOT ASSEMBLED
THE PARTIES AT 4.15, HE CAME AND HE SAID THAT HE WAS
PREPARED TO RELEASE THE JURORS AT 4.30 AND THAT HE JUST NEEDED
TO TAKE CARE OF A COUPLE OF THINGS. AND THEN HE STEPPED OFF
THE BENCH AND FOUR-THIRTY CAME AND WENT AND AT 4.36, THERE WAS
JUST THIS TENSION ALL THROUGHOUT THE COURTROOM AS
EVERYONE WAS RAVING THINKING, WHAT IN THE WORLD IS HAPPENING?
COULD WE POSSIBLY HAVE A VERDICT? AND INDEED WHEN HE
RETOOK THE BENCH AND SAID I HAVE A NOTE FROM THE JURY,
THEY HAVE A VERDICT. BOTH PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF ME
GASPED AUDIBLY. YOU COULD JUST HEAR REVERBERATE THROUGHOUT THE
CROWD. SO JUST THE VERY EXISTENCE OF THE VERDICT WAS
SHOCKING. BUT I THINK THE REACTIONS OF THE PARTIES WAS
ALSO SO TELLING FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP TRIED TO
PUT A GOOD FACE ON THE VERDICT WHEN HE WALKED OUT. YOU CAN SEE
HE SAID HIS JAW AND THAT TRUMP LIKE WAY, HE PURSED HIS LIPS
AND THE WAY WE'RE ALL USED TO. HE SAID HIS FACE TO LOOK AHEAD.
AND YET HE LOOKED LIKE A MAN DEFEATED AND RESIGNED. HE
WALKED SLOWLY AND LET KNOWINGLY. AND THEN ONCE THEY
WERE OUT OF THE COURTROOM, WE THE PRESS CORPS ABOUT 100 OF
US WERE LEFT IN THERE WITH THE DA'S OFFICE. I DON'T KNOW IF
I'VE SHARED THIS BEFORE, BUT WHEN TRUMP MOVES OUT INTO
THE HALLWAY FOR SECURITY PURPOSES, EVERYONE IS FROZEN.
AND THAT INCLUDES THE STUFF OF THE MANHATTAN DISTRICT
ATTORNEY'S OFFICE. IF YOU WERE COUNTING ON THEM TO LOOK AS
THIS, THEY JUST SCORED THE BIGGEST SCORE AND THAT OFFICE'S
HISTORY. YOU WOULDN'T HAVE SEEN IT ON THEIR FACES ON ALVIN
BRAGG STATES. HE LOOKS STRAIGHT AHEAD. AND THE PROSECUTORS ON
HIS TEAM DIDN'T CRACK A SINGLE SMILE
AMONG THEM. MAYBE THERE WAS A LITTLE TWINGE OF RELIEF AND
THEIR SHOULDERS AND BODY LANGUAGE. BUT THIS WAS A GROUP
OF PEOPLE THAT KNEW THAT ALL EYES OF THE WORLD WILL BE ON
THEM IN THIS MOMENT. IF THEY WERE LUCKY ENOUGH TO GET A
CONVICTION, LET ALONE 34 OF THEM. AND THEY MET THE MOMENT
WITH THEIR SERIOUSNESS OF PURPOSE. THIS IS NOT A GROUP OF
PEOPLE DESPITE WHAT DONALD TRUMP AND HIS REPUBLICAN ALLIES
ARE SAYING THAT RELISH THIS VICTORY THAT ARE REJOICING IN
IT. IT WAS A SOMBER AND SAD DAY FOR AMERICA THAT WE HAVE NOW
SEEN A FORMER PRESIDENT CONVICTED ON 3, 4, FELONY
COUNTS. AND YOU CAN SEE THAT AND ALL OF THEIR FACES GOT PUNCH TO THE COUNTRY.
DANNY CEVALLOS. >> LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT'S
NEXT. SENTENCING IS JULY 11TH. WHAT HAPPENS BETWEEN NOW AND
THEN AND WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS WITH SENTENCING? AND OF COURSE,
I TAKE AN APPEAL CAN START UNTIL AFTER THAT. >> PROBATION WILL PREPARE
WHAT'S CALLED A PRE-SENTENCE INVESTIGATION REPORT. NOW THAT
NORMALLY INVOLVED INTERVIEWING THE OFFENDER TO FIND OUT ABOUT
THE OFFENDER, BUT WHO HONESTLY NEEDS TO INTERVIEW DONALD TRUMP
TO FIND OUT ABOUT HIS BIOGRAPHICAL DETAILS AND ALL
THE OTHER INFORMATION THAT NORMALLY GOES INTO APS ARE THEN
THIS PUT THE SIDES WILL SUBMIT THEIR SENTENCING MEMORANDA.
THE TRUMP SIDE WILL UNQUESTIONABLY ASK FOR A
PROBATION-ONLY SENTENCE. THE REAL QUESTION FOR ME, WHAT
I'M REALLY CURIOUS ABOUT IS WHAT THE DA'S OFFICE ASKED FOR.
WILL THEY SAY AND THIS IS KIND OF A POLITICAL DECISION.
LET'S ASK FOR PROBATION ONLY WE'VE WON WHAT'S CALLED A
VICTORY OR WILL THEY ASK FOR INCARCERATION? I BELIEVE THEY
WILL ASHFORD INCARCERATION SENTENCE IN THIS CASE. THE REAL
QUESTION IS WHAT JUSTICE MARSHAWN WILL DO NOW. THERE ARE
PLENTY OF ARGUMENTS TO BE MADE FOR A PROBATION ALI SENTENCE.
NUMBER ONE, THIS IS A 71 PLUS YEAR-OLD OFFENDER. YOU HAVE A
NONVIOLENT OFFENSE, A FIRST TIME OFFENDER. NO GUNS, NO
DRUGS, NO VIOLENCE INVOLVED. AND I WOULD MAKE AN ADDITIONAL
ARGUMENT. AND I THINK REASONABLE MINDS CAN DISAGREE
HERE THAT I WOULD SAY THAT LOSS AND THE GREAT CHUCK ROSENBERG
WILL TELL YOU THAT IN FRAUD CASES, ESPECIALLY IN THE
FEDERAL SYSTEM, THE SINGLE BIGGEST DRIVER OF A SENTENCE IS
THE DOLLAR AMOUNT OF LOSS AND LOSS IS MEASURED IN MANY
DIFFERENT WAYS. BUT AS A DEFENSE ATTORNEY, I WOULD ARGUE
THAT THE LAST IN THIS CASE IS 0. IT'S NOT A TRADITIONAL FRAUD
CASE WHERE YOU HAVE TRADITIONAL VICTIMS WHO HANDED OVER THEIR
MONEY. LET'S SAY I'M JUST THINKING OF AN EXAMPLE. LET'S
SAY I MADE UP A FAKE UNIVERSITY AND CHARGE PEOPLE FAKE TUITION
FOR MY SAKE UNIVERSITY AND KEPT ALL THAT MONEY. I'M JUST GIVING
A HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE. THAT MIGHT BE A CASE WHERE YOU COULD
MEASURE LOSS IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF VICTIMS MULTIPLIED BY
HOW MUCH THEY PAY. YOU DON'T REALLY HAVE THAT HERE. YOU
COULD MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT THE LOSS AND THE VICTIMS ARE
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK. I GET THAT. I THINK
REASONABLE MINDS CAN DISAGREE. BUT AS A DEFENSE ATTORNEY, I
WOULD BE ARGUING THAT LOST IN THIS CASE IS 0. SO I THINK THAT
YOU WILL SEE A REQUEST FOR A NOT INCARCERATION PROBATION,
ALI SENTENCE. BUT I ALSO THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THE
PROSECUTORS ASKED FOR JAIL TIME. >> AND LET ME LET ME OPEN THIS
UP TO OUR LAWYERS TO CHUCK, LISA AND ANY AND JUST ASK WHAT HAPPENED. I I MUST SAY THAT I SAID IT AND
SAID HERE BEFORE THAT IN A NATION WHERE 77 MILLION PEOPLE
VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP, I JUST GOT MAYBE I WAS BEING
CYNICAL. BUT I JUST THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE ONE OUT OF 12
JURORS THAT WOULD HAVE SAID NO, NOT GOING TO GO ALONG WITH IT.
AND I WERE GOING TO, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO DRAG THIS THING
OUT FOREVER. SO I WAS SURPRISED BY THE QUICKNESS OF IT. I WAS
SURPRISED BY AS A RESOUNDING THE RIVER
VALLEY AND GET READY FOR A 34. WHAT WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK
HAPPENED IN THERE THAT THAT THAT MOVE THE DYNAMIC IN SUCH A
DRAMATIC WAY AGAINST DONALD TRUMP WAS FIRST A LEASE ALL
START WITH YOU? >> WELL, JOE, I THINK WHAT
HAPPENED IS EVIDENCE HAPPENED AND THE EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE
WAS OVERWHELMING. AND TODD BLANCHE CAN GO ON AS MANY CABLE
NETWORKS AS HE CAN FIND AND SAY THAT HIS CLIENT WAS CONVICTED
SOLELY ON THE WORD OF MICHAEL COHEN. AND NOTHING COULD BE
FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. HIS CLIENT WAS CONVICTED LARGELY ON
THE WORDS OF 2 CATEGORIES OF PEOPLE, HIS ACOLYTES STARTING
WITH DAVID PACKER AND ENDING WITH HOPE HICKS, MADELEINE
WESTERHOUT AND HIS OWN WORDS HEARD BY THE JURY AND RECORDING
THAT MICHAEL COHEN MADE ON 9/6/2016 AND EVEN INCLUDING HIS
TWEETS, WHICH WERE CONSCIOUSNESS OF HIS GUILT IN
2018, HIS LEGAL FILINGS WHERE HE ADMITTED THAT THIS WAS A
REIMBURSEMENT, ALL OF THE BOOKS THAT HE WROTE PROCLAIMING HOW
YOU GOT TO BE DONALD TRUMP. THOSE LAID OUT OF A FRAMEWORK
FOR HIS M O HIS M LO WAS REWARD. THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
LOYAL WAS IT ABOVE ALL ELSE. DON'T TRUST ANYONE. EVEN IF YOU
HAVE THE BEST PEOPLE AROUND YOU, MICROMANAGE MICROMANAGE
MICROMANAGE. BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOUR CHECKBOOK
BELONGS TO YOU AND YOU ALONE. DONALD TRUMP WAS CONVICTED
BECAUSE EVIDENCE HAPPENS. >> YEAH. I THINK ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT WE MAY NOT KNOW FOR SOME TIME UNTIL WE TALK TO
JURORS, BUT I DON'T THINK THE JURORS SPENT A LOT OF TIME
PARSING OUT EACH AND EVERY COUNT. I THINK THEY LOOKED AT
THEM AS A GROUP AND IT COULD HAVE DONE THAT BECAUSE THE
FACTS INVOLVED WITH THE TRANSACTION WERE SO SIMILAR.
YES, THERE WERE MINOR DIFFERENCES. I DID WONDER IF
THEY MIGHT SEIZE ON THE FACT THAT DONALD TRUMP SIGNED SOME
CHECKS BUT NOT ALL THE CHECKS OR FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THE CHECKS
CAME FROM THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION THAT THEY CAME
FROM THE TRUST. THOSE ARE EXAMPLES OF DIFFERENCES BETWEEN
THESE TRANSACTIONS. BUT OF COURSE, EACH COUNT REALLY COULD
HAVE ALL THESE COUNTS COULD HAVE BEEN DIVISIBLE BY 3
BECAUSE YOU HAD A VOUCHER RELATED TO A CHECK RELATED TO
AN INVOICE. SO IN THAT SENSE, THEY COULD HAVE GROUP THOSE
TOGETHER. BUT UNLIKE MANY FINANCIAL CRIMES CASES WHERE
THE TRANSACTIONS HAVE VERY DISTINCT AND INVOLVE VERY
DIFFERENT FACTS, THIS COULD HAVE BEEN A CASE WHERE THEY
REALLY JUST COULD HAVE GROUPED ALL THESE TOGETHER AND SAID
THAT TRUMP'S INTENT APPLIED TO ALL OF THEM BROADLY, BASED ON
THE EVIDENCE THEY HEARD OF TRUMP'S INVOLVEMENT AND THEY
COULD HAVE ARRIVED AT THIS RELATIVELY QUICKLY. MAYBE WE'LL
FIND OUT THAT THEY TOOK A STRAW POLL RIGHT AWAY WHEN THEY GOT
INTO THE JURY ROOM AND THERE WAS A MINORITY. AND GOING TO
YOUR QUESTION, JOE, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE RIGHT, YOU WE OFTEN
SPEAK OF THEIR ONLY TAKES ONE JUROR. BUT PRACTICALLY
SPEAKING, IF YOU'RE THAT ONE OF 12 AND YOU GET IN THAT JURY
ROOM AND YOU FIND THAT ON THE ONLY ONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH
MY 11 FELLOW JURORS, THOSE FOLKS I DON'T THINK TEND TO
HOLD OUT FOR TOO LONG. I THINK THAT JUST MASS PSYCHOLOGY IS
THAT WELL, AT LEAST I BETTER LISTEN TO WHAT THEY HAVE THIS.
I'M CONVINCED OF ALL I'M SOMEBODY WITH AN OPEN MIND.
I SAID I WAS SOMEONE WITH AN OPEN MIND. AND WHEN YOU HAVE
ONE OR 2 OF THE MINORITY LIKE THAT, I DON'T THINK IT TAKES
TOO LONG. MAYBE THAT'S WHY THEY READ BACK THE TESTIMONY TO SAY,
HEY, STEVE, ARE YOU CONVINCED NOW MAY BE YOUR MEMORIES
REFRESH, ARE YOU WITH US? AND THAT'S PROBABLY WHY THIS
HAPPENED. RELATIVELY SPEAKING. IN MY VIEW, THIS IS A SHORT
DELIBERATION. HOW INVOLVED WAS DONALD TRUMP
IN HIS OWN DEFENSE? I MEAN, WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> I MEAN, VERY INVOLVED.
THEN HE'S A HE'S A SMART GUY. HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING.
HE JOKINGLY SAID THE U.S. A LOT TO US. HE WANTED TO BE A
LITIGATOR. YOU KNOW, HE WANTED TO BE THE ONE THAT WAS ACTUALLY
ARGUING BECAUSE HE'S A SMART GUY, KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING.
WE AND WE MADE EVERY DECISION TOGETHER. WE DIDN'T. THERE WERE
THINGS THAT HE WAS FRUSTRATED WITH. >> WERE YOU SATISFIED WITH JURY
SELECTION AND WAS THE FORMER PRESIDENT
INVOLVED IN THAT IN ANY WAY? >> I MEAN, IT VERY MUCH
INVOLVED. HE WAS RIGHT THERE WITH WITH WITH THE WHOLE TEAM
TALKING ABOUT THE POTENTIAL JURORS LOOK, WAS I SATISFIED WE
PUT IN MOTION AND BECAUSE WE WE SAID WE COULD NOT GET A FAIR
JURY IN MANHATTAN. AND THAT'S NOT A I'M NOT BEING DISPARAGING
TO THE JURORS AND THEY WERE GREAT. THEY SHOW UP ON TIME
EVERY DAY THEY WERE COMMITTED. THEY PAID ATTENTION. BUT IT
WE'RE IN A SITUATION WHERE WE HAD. SO A VERY LIMITED NUMBER
OF PEOPLE WE COULD STRIKE. AND MOST OF THE FOLKS OVER A
NUMBER OF FOLKS HAD A VERY STRONG OPINION OF PRESIDENT
TRUMP AND IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE. >> THEY PAID ATTENTION. YOU
KNOW, YOU TALKED ABOUT WILLIE, HOW DONALD TRUMP WAS SO
INVOLVED AND SO ENGAGED IN EVERYTHING AND HE WISHES HE
COULD HAVE BEEN THE LITIGATOR IN YET HE WAS AFRAID TO TAKE THE
STAND. IT WOULDN'T EVEN GET UP AND
TALK AND HIS OWN DEFENSE. SO I I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH YOU
REALLY WANT TO TALK IN THERE AFTER ALL. >> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.
AND THERE'S NO WE'LL TALK TO OUR LEGAL EXPERTS, BUT THERE
WAS NOTHING PARTICULARLY UNUSUAL ABOUT JURY SELECTION
HERE. THEY HAD THEIR CHANCE TO STRIKE JURORS JUST LIKE THAT.
WE DO IT ALL THE TIME. BUT YET DONALD TRUMP DIDN'T WANT TO
TAKE THE STAND. AND YOU DO GET THE SENSE THAT
DONALD TRUMP AND YET ALL REMEMBER ALL THOSE REPUBLICANS
WHO SHOWED UP AT COURT FOR, INCLUDING THE SPEAKER OF THE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TO TEAR DOWN THE PROCESS IN
PREPARATION FOR WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY, WHICH IS TO SAY THEY
KNEW THE EVIDENCE WAS STRONG. IT WAS OVERWHELMING, PERHAPS
UNEXPECTED. GO 34 FOR 34 ON THESE COUNTS. BUT THEY KNEW
THERE WAS A LIKELIHOOD THAT HE WOULD BE CONVICTED OF SOMETHING
HERE. THEREFORE, THEY HAD TO ATTACK THE JUDGE. THEY HAD TO
ATTACK THE WITNESSES AND TO ATTACK THE JURY IN SOME CASES AND ATTACKED THE PROCESS TO SAY
THAT IT WAS RIGHT AND THEREFORE HE COULDN'T GET A FAIR TRIAL.
WE'VE OUTLINED ALL THE REASONS THAT'S NOT TRUE. JOE, WE'VE
TALKED ABOUT THIS. WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE THIS SHOULD
HAVE BEEN BROUGHT THIS CASE SHOULD HAVE BEEN BROUGHT AT
ALL. IT WAS EVIDENCE WAS PRODUCED WAS GIVEN TO THE JURY.
THE WITNESSES CAME AND GAVE THEIR TESTIMONY AND A JURY OF
DONALD TRUMP'S PIERS IN NEW YORK CITY, 12 OF THEM FROM
ACROSS THE SPECTRUM OR WITH DIFFERENT VIEWS OF THE WORLD
AND VIEWS OF DONALD TRUMP AGREED UNANIMOUSLY. AND BY THE
WAY, RELATIVELY QUICKLY, IF YOU LOOK AT HOW LONG THIS
TRIAL WAS, THAT HE WAS ACTUALLY ON ALL 34 COUNTS. >> YEAH. AND YOU KNOW, WILLIE,
THAT'S THE THING IS IT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT POINT THAT YOU
JUST BROUGHT UP. YOU COULD MAKE ARGUMENTS THAT
THIS CASE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT. WALL STREET JOURNAL
EDITORIAL PAGE, WHOEVER CAME UP WITH THIS THIS LINE AND THE
EDITORIAL THIS MORNING SHOULD SHOULD GET A BONUS TALKED ABOUT
IT. THAT TURNED DURKAN ILLEGAL FERRY LIKE, YOU KNOW,
EVERYTHING BUT THE SHOT DEAD INSIDE AND FRIED. >> IT WAS AGAIN AND I'VE SAID
IT HERE TIME AND AGAIN, I I'M NOT SO SURE THAT ANY CONVICTION
GIVEN THE LEGAL THEORY UNDERLYING THE CASE IS GOING TO
HOLD UP ON APPEAL. MAYBE IT WILL. MAYBE IT WON'T BE A LONG
TIME. I OF COURT STUFF, RIGHT? BUT THAT'S SOMETHING IF MARCO
RUBIO OR TED CRUZ OR ANYBODY ELSE WANTED TO GO AFTER THE DA
BRINGING THE CASE AND SAY, YOU KNOW, TALK ABOUT
HOW THAT THEY DISAGREE, THAT THE LEGAL THEORY DIDN'T MAKE
ANY SENSE. THAT'S ONE THING TO ATTACK THE JURORS TO THE SAVAGE, THE JUDGE.
THAT'S JUST YOU KNOW, I THINK MOST PEOPLE WOULD CONSIDER THAT
TO BE ON AMERICAN. AND YOU SAW AND
I'M SO GLAD THAT THE PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ATTORNEY SHOW RESPECT TO THE JURORS AND
SAID THEY DID A GREAT JOB. THEY DID EVERYTHING THAT WAS
ASKED OF THEM. THEY SHOWED UP EARLY. NOW THEY WERE ALWAYS
THERE ON TIME. THEY LISTENED. THEY PAID ATTENTION. YOU KNOW,
THAT THAT COSTS THAT COSTS HIM THAT WOULD HAVE
CAUSED ANY REPUBLICAN SEN NOTHING AND ACTUALLY WOULD HAVE
MAYBE ONE A LITTLE BIT OF RESPECT FROM PEOPLE THAT WERE
LISTENING TO THE MESSAGE. BUT INSTEAD THEY GO STRAIGHT TO
WHERE COMMUNIST CUBA. AND IT'S JUST IT'S A JOLT. >> AND YEAH, THAT WAS SENATOR
RUBIO ACTUALLY ACTUALLY SAID THAT YESTERDAY, ONE OF DONALD
TRUMP'S ADULT CHILDREN SAID THIS VERDICT OFFICIALLY MAKES
US A 3RD WORLD COUNTRY. HE'S ANOTHER ANOTHER DESCRIPTIVE
TERM. SO WHEN THE LEGAL SYSTEM WORKS AGAINST YOU, BUT A JURY
OF YOUR PEERS CONVICTS WHO AFTER HEARING THE EVIDENCE,
SUDDENLY WE'RE A 3RD WORLD COUNTRY WITH DONALD TRUMP
EITHER WAY. NOW IS THE FIRST FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT IN
AMERICAN HISTORY TO BE CONVICTED OF A CRIME. LATE
YESTERDAY AFTERNOON, A JURY OF 12 NEW YORKERS FOUND TRUMP
GUILTY ON ALL 34 FELONY COUNTS AGAINST HIM IN THE HUSH MONEY
CRIMINAL TRIAL. THAT CAME AFTER THE JURY DELIBERATED FOR
ROUGHLY 9 AND A HALF HOURS OVER A COUPLE OF DAYS. SENTENCING IS
NOW SET FOR JULY 11TH JUST 4 DAYS BEFORE THE REPUBLICAN
NATIONAL CONVENTION BEGINS IN MILWAUKEE. THE MAXIMUM SENTENCE FOR FALL
SUFFOCATION OF BUSINESS RECORDS IS 4 YEARS IN PRISON. BUT
INCARCERATION IS NOT A MANDATORY SENTENCE WILL BE
JUDGE ONE WHERE SEAN ULTIMATELY DECIDES THE PUNISHMENT.
JOHNSON, THE MAYOR, EUGENE ROBINSON ARE STILL WITH US FOR
THIS HOUR. AND LET'S ADD TO THE PANEL, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY AND
MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST JOYCE VANCE, FORMER ACTING U.S.
SOLICITOR GENERAL AND MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST NEAL KATYAL AND
PRESIDENT CEO OF THE NATIONAL CONSTITUTION CENTER. JEFFREY
ROSEN. GOOD MORNING TO YOU ALL. JOYCE, LET ME BEGIN WITH YOU
AND YOUR REACTION TO A VERDICT OF 34 FOR 34 ON THESE FELONY
COUNTS AGAINST THE FORMER PRESIDENT. >> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S IT'S
SOMETHING WE'LL YOU KNOW. I'VE TALKED TO A LOT OF JURIES
AFTER THEY'VE REACHED A VERDICT. I LIVE IN ONE OF THOSE
JURISDICTIONS WHERE THE JUDGES GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO DO THAT
SEVERAL DAYS AFTER A VERDICT IS RETURNED. AND WHAT I HEARD OVER
25 YEARS WAS JURORS WHO WANTED TO EXPRESS TO US HOW MUCH THEY
HONORED THEIR OF THAT. THEY AND TRIED SO HARD TO SET ASIDE ANY
BIAS OR PRECONCEPTION THAT THEY DELIBERATED BASED ONLY ON THE
EVIDENCE AND REACH THEIR VERDICT BASED ON THE EVIDENCE,
WHATEVER THAT VERDICT WAS. AND THAT'S WHAT THIS JURY DID
HEAR. THEY THEY LISTEN TO THE EVIDENCE. THEY REACHED A
VERDICT BASED ON THE EVIDENCE. WE SAW SIGNS OF THEM WORKING
THROUGH IT. SO SO LET DONALD TRUMP IS IT IN THE PROCESS OF
TRYING TO SPEND THIS VERDICT NOW AND AMERICANS NEED TO
REJECT THAT SPEND THEY NEED TO IGNORE THAT. THEY NEED TO USE
THE SAME COMMON SENSE THAT THE JURY USED HERE. THE JURORS ARE
THE ONES WHO LISTEN TO EVERY BIT OF THE EVIDENCE THAT
SOMETHING THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO. MOST OF
US HAD TO READ ABOUT IT ON THE COLD RECORD WHERE HE REPORTS ON
THE NEWS. THE JURORS HEARD EVERY PIECE OF THE EVIDENCE AND
THEY MADE A DECISION HERE FOR ALL OF US. I THINK IT'S
IMPORTANT THAT WE NOT LET DONALD TRUMP WHO HAS DONE SO
MUCH DAMAGE TO OUR INSTITUTIONS, SHAKE OUR FAITH
IN THE JURY SYSTEM BECAUSE THE JURY SYSTEM DID ITS JOB.
HERE IT LISTEN TO THE EVIDENCE. IT RETURNED A VERDICT. WE
SHOULD ACCEPT THAT VERDICT. >> NO, I'M CURIOUS. SENTENCING
IS SET FOR JULY 11TH AND CHUCK WAS TALKING LAST HOUR ABOUT THE
ALLOCATION PART OF THAT. AND THAT IS WHERE THE DEFENDANT HAS A CHANCE TO
EXPRESS REMORSE AND SAY SOMETHING. IF A DEFENDANT
EXPRESSES REMORSE, COULD THAT IMPACT THE SENTENCE THAT THE
JUDGE TO SITES? >> I MEAN, THAT IS THE MOST
COUNTER FACTUAL HYPOTHETICAL I THINK I'VE EVER GOTTEN. AND
THERE'S NO CHANCE THAT HE'S GOING TO EXPRESS REMORSE.
HE'S SOUTH HAS JUST BEEN GOING OUT AND ATTACKING THE JUDGE,
ATTACKING THE JURY, ALL OF THAT. BUT YES, IF YOU'VE
EXPRESSED REMORSE THAT WOULD BE RELEVANT ALONG WITH HIS CONDUCT
DURING THE TRIAL. AND HERE TO REMEMBER THE PROSECUTOR
STEINGLASS SAID HERE, THIS IS A REALLY SERIOUS OFFENSE. THIS IS
SOMETHING THAT MAY HAVE PUT DONALD TRUMP DIRECTLY IN THE
OVAL OFFICE. THAT'S GOING TO BE VERY HARD. I THINK TO GET AWAY
WITHOUT JAIL TIME. DON'T PICK UP ON SOMETHING US CHOICE ABOUT
THE JURY FOR HEARINGS. I THINK CHOICE IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THAT
THE JURY VERDICT HERE TELLS US A LOT. I JUST ADD TO IT 2
THINGS. ONE IS THAT IT'S NOT JUST THE JURY VERDICT IN TERMS
OF A MAJORITY VOTE OR SOMETHING IN OUR COUNTRY. IT'S GOT TO BE
UNANIMOUS VERDICT. ALL 12 JURORS HAD TO AGREE AND THEY
HAD TO AGREE AND ARE THE MOST DIFFICULT STANDARD IN THE LAW,
THE HIGHEST BURDEN OF PROOF PROSECUTORS ALL BEYOND A
REASONABLE DOUBT. THE JURY DID ALL OF THAT. LISTEN TO THE
EVIDENCE AND SO CONCLUDED AND NOW YOU'VE GOT ALL OF TRUMP'S
ALLIES, INCLUDING TRUMP'S LAWYER IN THE CLIP YOU PLAYED
SAY, OH, THIS JURY WAS UNFAIR TO DONALD TRUMP. THEY DIDN'T
LIKE HIM AND THE LIKE. I MEAN, THERE'S 2 PROBLEMS WITH THAT.
ONE IS LIKE IT'S JUST WRONG LIKE THERE WAS JUROR NUMBER 2
WHO LITERALLY AWAY MEDIA THE JUROR TO CONSENSUS TRUTH
SOCIAL. BUT THAT SURE WAS ONE OF 12 JURORS WHO CAN VOTE TO
CONVICT DONALD TRUMP. THE OTHER IS THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SET
UP THAT ARGUMENT ABOUT A CHALLENGE TO VENUE ON APPEAL.
THIS WAS AN UNFAIR JURISDICTION TO TODD TRY DONALD TRUMP.
EVERY HIGH PROFILE DEFENDANT TRIES TO STACK AND IT FAILS.
I DO WITH THAT MYSELF. BUT A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR IN THE
GEORGE FLOYD MURDER, DEREK SHOW THAT MADE EXACTLY THE SAME
ARGUMENT TRYING TO GET A LOOK AT MINNEAPOLIS. I CAN'T GET A
FAIR TRIAL AND DEMONIZED AND THE LIKE THE JUDGE REJECTED IN
THE COURT OF APPEALS REJECTED THAT BECAUSE EVERYWHERE IN THE
COUNTRY IS PRETTY. THERE'S PRETRIAL PUBLICITY. AND THAT'S
TRUE FOR TRUMP JUST AS MUCH, YOU KNOW, IN SO THAT STANDARD
FOR A CHANGE OF VENUE WON'T BE MATT. I THINK HE'S GOT NO
DECENT APPEAL ON THESE GROUNDS. >> SO JEFF ROSEN, LET'S GET
YOUR REACTION YESTERDAY TO WHAT IS SIMPLY A SIGNIFICANT MOMENT IN
AMERICAN HISTORY. WE DON'T KNOW YET WHAT IMPACT, IF ANY, IT
WILL HAVE ON THIS YEAR'S ELECTION. BUT THIS WAS A DAY
THAT WILL ALWAYS READ ABOUT IN THE HISTORY BOOKS. GET YOUR
SENSE OF THE SYSTEM WORKING AND ALSO BEYOND THAT, WHAT YOU FEEL
THE APPROPRIATE SENTENCE WOULD BE. >> THE MOST REMARKABLE ASPECT
OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S REACTION TO THE VERDICT IS THAT HE
ATTACKED THE ENTIRE SYSTEM. THAT'S RIGHT. HE ATTACKED THE
JUDGE AS CROOKED. HE ATTACKED THE JURY AND HE ATTACKED THE
PROSECUTION AND THIS REPRESENTS A HISTORIC
CHANGE IN AMERICAN CONSTITUTIONAL LAW. THE
FOUNDERS THOUGHT THAT ONLY VIRTUOUS LEADERS WOULD SAVE THE
REPUBLIC AND THAT WE'D ALSO NEEDED THE
AUXILIARY PROTECTIONS OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE RULE OF LAW.
WHEN YOU LOST AND LINCOLN RIGHT BEFORE THE CIVIL WAR SAYS
THAT ONCE WE HAVE BANNED MR ATTACHMENT TO THE RULE OF LAW,
WE'RE GOING TO SUCCUMB TO THE MOB AND IT IS A SIGN OF SERVE
WORLD COUNTRIES. IT'S A SIGN OF COMMUNIST DICTATORSHIPS THAT
YOU ATTACK THE RULE OF LAW AS RIGGED WHEN YOU LOSE. THAT'S
WHAT HAPPENED IN BRAZIL. WHEN THE PRESIDENT LOSES
OFFICE, HE GOES TO JAIL. HIS PARTY RUNS AGAIN. HIS
SUCCESSOR SAYS THE SYSTEM WAS RIGGED AND THEN PEOPLE STORMED
THE CAPITOL BECAUSE THEY WANT EXCEPT ELECTION. THE URGENTLY
IMPORTANT THING AT THIS CRUCIAL MOMENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
EVEN IF YOU THINK THE PROSECUTION WAS UNFAIR, EVEN IF
YOU THINK THE VERDICT SHOULD BE OVERTURNED ON APPEAL IS TO
ACCEPT THE RESULT OF THE RULE OF LAW BECAUSE IN THIS
POLARIZED TIME, ONCE CITIZENS ABOUND AND A COMMITMENT TO
ACCEPTING VERDICTS THAT THEY DISAGREE WITH, THAT WE REALLY
WILL LOSE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC AS FOR THE APPROPRIATE
SENTENCE. THAT'S REALLY A QUESTION FOR NEW YORK STATE
LAW. IT IS TRUE THAT IF PRESIDENT TRUMP WERE TO BE
RE-ELECTED ZEN, SHE'S UNLIKELY TO SERVE JAIL TIME. EVEN THE
SUPREME COURT MIGHT SAY THAT HE HAS TO BE ABLE TO HAVE HIS
RESPONSIBILITIES AND DO HIS DUTIES AND THEREFORE JAIL TIME
IS APPROPRIATE. BUT BUT THE JUDGE SHOULD APPLY WHATEVER
SENTENCE NEW YORK LOT POSSIBLY REQUIRES NOT TREATING PRESIDENT
TRUMP DIFFERENTLY THEM AND THE OTHER DEFENDANT IN ORDER TO
REAFFIRM THIS REALLY IMPORTANT POINT. AND IT'S IT'S VERY
IMPORTANT. THE REPUBLICANS ALSO ACCEPT THIS AND AND NOT GO THE
WAY OF ATTACKING THE SYSTEM IS WRECKED BECAUSE ONCE WE DO
THAT, WE REALLY HAVE THE FOUNDERS NIGHTMARE. >> THIS IS A JUSTICE SYSTEM
THAT HAS REPUBLICANS WHILE PROTECTING DEMOCRATS. THIS IS
CERTAINLY A HOAX, A SHAM. THIS WAS DEVASTATING FOR THE
AVERAGE AMERICAN WATCHING. >> IT IS SHAMEFUL TO SEE THIS
AND I HOPE AMERICANS ARE PAYING ATTENTION BECAUSE AMERICA THEY
THINK. >> YOU ARE STUPID. WHAT WE SAW
TODAY WAS AN ABSOLUTE TRAVESTY OF JUSTICE. THIS WAS NOT LAW.
THIS WAS NOT CRIMINAL JUSTICE. THIS WAS POLITICS. THIS WAS A
POLITICAL SMEAR JOB. THIS WAS AN ATTACK JOB. THIS IS WHAT YOU
SEE IN BANANA REPUBLIC CENT AND IT IS. I AM BOTH FURIOUS AND
HEARTBROKEN AT THE SAME TIME. >> THIS IS A PART OF CENTRAL
SHOT. ROB. THIS IS A SCENE POPULOUS COUNTRY. THIS IS WHAT
I GREW UP HAVING PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY TALKING ABOUT IT
HAPPENED IN THE DAYS AFTER THE CAPTURE OF LUCIAN. OBVIOUSLY
THOSE EXECUTIONS, THIS ON THE OTHER HAND, IS AN EFFORT TO
INTERFERE IN ELECTIONS. >> DO THEY KNOW THAT IT WAS A
JURY OF 12 PEERS AND THAT PEOPLE CAN SEE WHAT THE
EVIDENCE WAS IN THIS CASE? THAT WAS JUST A SAMPLING OF
REPUBLICAN REACTIONS TO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S GUILTY
VERDICT. NBC NEWS ALSO LEARNED RNC POLITICAL DIRECTOR JAMES
BLAIR HAD A CALL WITH ALL 50 GOP STATE CHAIRS AFTER THE
VERDICT TO ISSUE POST VERDICT TALKING POINTS AND MESSAGING
FOR THE PARTY. THOSE TALKING POINTS INCLUDE THIS IS UNJUST.
THE CONVICTION WILL BE GOOD FOR REPUBLICANS. WE WILL WIN THE
APPEAL AND WE JUST ELECTED THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES. JOINING US NOW AUTHOR AND NBC NEWS PRESIDENTIAL
HISTORIAN MICHAEL BESCHLOSS AND FORMER MSNBC HOST AND
CONTRIBUTOR TO WASHINGTON MONTHLY CHRIS MATTHEWS.
MICHAEL, THESE REPUBLICANS JUST IN HISTORY. IS THERE A PREDICTION AND HOW HISTORY
WILL LOOK AT THE REACTION TO THIS MOMENT? >> WHAT I JUST HEARD MAKES ME
SICK BECAUSE THE ESSENCE OF AMERICA IS TO BELIEVE IN OUR
SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT AND OUR RULE OF LAW. WHEN GEORGE HW BUSH WAS
PRESIDENT, HE WOULD GO OVER AND TALK TO MACAU, GORBACHEV ABOUT
HOW TO REFORM HIS COUNTRY. AND HE WOULD SAY MY PILE, NO
ONE IS GOING TO INVEST IN RUSSIA UNLESS YOU HAVE A RULE
OF LAW BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL WONDER WHETHER THEIR MONEY WILL
BE THERE THE NEXT DAY OR WHETHER IT WILL BE STOLEN.
SO TO HEAR DONALD TRUMP AND ALL THESE PEOPLE SAYING THAT THE
SYSTEM IS RIGGED, LOOK AT IT THIS WAY. LET'S HAVE A LITTLE
REALITY CHECK. SO HE WANTS TO BE PRESIDENT AGAIN AND LET'S
SAY HE GETS A LOT. YEAH. AND THEN HE HAS TO TAKE AN OATH
OF OFFICE, PRESERVE, PROTECT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION.
THAT'S THE RULE OF LAW. WHAT HOW DO YOU DO THAT? IF YOU HAVE
SAID THAT IN YOUR OWN CASE IT WAS A RIGGED SYSTEM. THAT JURY
BAD JUDGE DISREGARD THE OUTCOME THAT USED TO BE THE REPUBLICANS
WERE ACTUALLY FOR LAW AND ORDER. AND THE OTHER THING IS
YOU'RE ASKING ABOUT SOMETHING AND HISTORY. MAKE A LOOK AT
1974. THAT'S THE ONLY TIME ON THIS PROGRAM. I WILL EVER
PRAISE RICHARD NIXON AND WATERGATE SUPREME COURT
UNANIMOUSLY AD 0 SAID GIVE UP YOUR TAPES. NIXON DIDN'T SAY
THE SYSTEM IS RIGGED. I SHOULDN'T GIVE THEM UP BECAUSE
HE KNEW THAT WAS GOING TO GETTING KICKED OUT OF OFFICE.
HE GAVE UP THE TAPES. HE HAD TO RESIGN. AND GERALD FORD, THE
NEW PRESIDENT DIDN'T SAY SYSTEM WAS RIGGED. NIXON WAS
RAILROADED, RIGHT? HE SAID OUR SYSTEM WORKS. THIS IS A
GOVERNMENT OF LAWS AND NOT A MAN HERE. THE PEOPLE RULE. >> WELL, WHAT'S INTERESTING,
CHRIS MATTHEWS AND I'D LOVE FOR YOU TO TAKE ME TO PENNSYLVANIA
TO LANCASTER COUNTY OR TO AREAS THAT MORE HOLY VOTED FOR TRUMP
BECAUSE WHAT THEY'RE HEARING >> ON FOX NEWS OR IN THE AREAS
WHERE THEY GET THEIR INFORMATION FAR RIGHT NETWORKS AND NEWS SITES IS THAT
NOT JUST THIS IS UNJUST AND TO THIS WAS A RIGGED. BUT THEY'RE
ALSO HEARING THAT WHEN DONALD TRUMP IF AND WHEN DONALD TRUMP
IS ELECTED, THEY SAY WHEN THAT DONALD TRUMP WILL GO AFTER
EVERYBODY, THE PROSECUTOR HIM EVERY SINGLE PERSON
RETRIBUTION. SO TELL ME HOW DO YOU FEEL THE PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY
IN ERROR, AREAS IN PENNSYLVANIA ARE GOING TO BE DIGESTING THIS INFORMATION? >> WELL, INCLUDING A 58 WORD,
NORTHEAST PHILADELPHIA, PARTS OF NORTHEAST. WELL, IF YOU
VOTED FOR TRUMP LAST TIME AND SOUTH PHILLY TO YEAH, I THINK
THIS IS A FOCUS GROUP, A POLITICAL FOCUS GROUP. YOU
KNOW, POLITICS SAID JOE, IS THIS. YOU KNOW THIS. YOU GET
A DOZEN PEOPLE. YOU TELL YOU TO SET ASIDE FOR THE REST OF THE
COUNTRY, YOU FILL THEM WITH ALL THE FACTS. YOU GIVE THEM ALL
THE INFORMATION THAT'S RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION AND THEN THEY
GIVE YOU A VERDICT ABOUT WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT THE COUNTY'S.
THIS WAS A FOCUS GROUP TO ASIDE FROM THE LEGAL FACTORS. IT WAS
A FOCUS GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO GOT FOR 21 DAYS. ALL THE FACTS.
I'M GOING TO GET THE TRUTH OF WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THIS
MATTER IN THIS CASE. AND THEY CAME OUT WITH THE JUDGMENT OF
THE MATTER ABOUT 10, 9 OR 10 HOURS. AND SO IT'S REALLY
IMPORTANT IN A COUNTRY WHERE 3 FENCE THE COUNTRY DON'T GET THE
NEWS. THEY DON'T GET THE PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER. THEY
DON'T READ THE WASHINGTON POST THE NEW YORK TIMES, THE OTHER
BIG PAPERS. THEY DON'T GET THE NEWS. >> THEY SAY THINGS LIKE WELL, I
DIDN'T HEAR TIKTOK DIDN'T REALLY COVER THE TRIAL WATCH OR
I HEAR THAT JOE BIDEN COULD HENRY SITE THE ALPHABET.
WATCH. THIS NEVER HAPPENED. THIS STUFF NEVER HAPPENS TO
MOST PEOPLE. THIS TIME WE HAD A FOCUS GROUP HAD ALL THE FACTS,
ALL THE EQUAL FACTS BY THEY ALL GOT THE SAME INFORMATION AND
THEY RENDERED IN ACTUAL VERDICT IN A MATTER OF 9 HOURS. SO I
THINK WE KNOW WE'RE AT WE'RE AT IS IF YOU GET ALL THE
INFORMATION, THE PEOPLE WHICH IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO DO IN
THE MEDIA TODAY, YOU GOT TO GET A VERDICT. THE BAD NEWS IS 3
FENCE. THE COUNTRY IS NOT GETTING THE NEWS. THEY'RE
LISTING THE TIKTOK OR THEY'RE LISTENING TO NOTHING OR $0.9 OR
SOCIAL MEDIA. WHAT TRUMP'S BEEN PUTTING OUT ON FOX AND THAT'S
THE PROBLEM. BUT THIS CASE IS A GOOD CASE BECAUSE HIS PEOPLE TO
HAVE ALL THE FACTS FOR 21 DAYS. AND BY THE WAY, YOUR YOUR
LAWYERS AND YOUR SHOW HAVE BEEN FABULOUS. BY THE WAY, THEY'VE
ALL THE JOYS. EVERYBODY'S BEEN FABULOUS. AND THEY UNDERSTAND
THIS MATTER WAS A TRUE FOR RESPONSE FROM A TRUTHFUL GROUP
OF PEOPLE DOING THEIR JOB AS JURORS AND THEY LEARNED THE
TRUTH AND THEY ACTED ON IT. THAT'S REALLY POWERFUL
INFORMATION APART FROM THE LEGAL SYSTEM. IT'S ABOUT AN
AMERICAN FOCUS GROUP. >> AND THIS IS THE WAY IT
WORKS. MICHAEL BESCHLOSS, WE'VE BEEN SAYING ALL MORNING
THAT THIS, YES, IT'S NEW YORK CITY AND DONALD TRUMP CAME OUT
AND SAID I ONLY GOT 5% IN MANHATTAN HOW TO GET A FAIR
TRIAL HERE. ASIA POINT VERY WELL. IF YOU LOOK AT THE
MAKEUP, THE JURY WHICH DONALD TRUMP AND HIS LEGAL TEAM HAD A
SAY IN SELECTING THE JURORS BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THE SYSTEM
WORKS STRUCTURES. THEY CHOSE JURORS AS MANY OF THE JURORS.
THOSE 12 YOU'RE SEEING THERE GOT THEIR NEWS FROM TRUTH.
SOCIAL HAS MSNBC ONE EACH ALSO A LOT OF THEM. YOU KNOW, YOU
FOX NEWS WALL STREET JOURNAL. THE POINT THE POINT BEING THEY
CONSUME NEWS FOR A WIDE SPECTRUM. THEY COME FROM
DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, SAY SOME OF THEM PERHAPS WHERE HAD SOME
AFFECTION FOR DONALD TRUMP. SO THEY LISTENED, AS CHRIS SAID
TO THE EVIDENCE AND MADE A DECISION UNANIMOUSLY WITHIN OUR
SYSTEM THAT HE WAS GUILTY ON. ALL 34 COUNTS. AND I'M CURIOUS
FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW, HISTORY OF THE WAY THAT OUR
SYSTEM SERVING THE LAST 5, 6, YEARS HAS BENT BUT NOT
BROKEN. WE TALKED ABOUT THOSE TRIALS AROUND THE THE GENUINE
THE TWENTY-TWENTY ELECTION OF JANUARY 6. YES, THE SYSTEM WAS
PUSH. THE SYSTEM WAS TESTED BY DONALD TRUMP, A MAN WHO WAS
STILL HERE. AND I THINK IT'S SAFE TO SAY
THAT THE TEST WILL CONTINUE FOR THE NEXT SEVERAL MONTHS. >> THE TOTALLY AGREE. AND IF HE
IS ELECTED, IT COULD CONTINUE FOR THE REST OF OUR LIFETIMES.
CONCEIVABLY, THAT'S WHAT'S AT STAKE. AND I THINK THIS IS THE
QUESTION WE'VE ALL GOT TO ASK. YOU KNOW, DO WE BELIEVE IN THE
SYSTEM OF LAW THAT WE'VE GOT IN THIS COUNTRY, WHICH TO MY MIND,
IS THE ESSENCE OF AMERICA OR DO WE NOT? HOW DO YOU EXPECT A PRESIDENT
AND WHOEVER HE APPOINTS HIS ATTORNEY GENERAL? YOU KNOW,
LET'S SAY THAT THERE ARE RIOTS IN THE CITIES IN IN OCTOBER
WITH SOME WHICH SOME REPUBLICANS HAVE SAID WHAT THE
HELPFUL TO THEM IS DONALD TRUMP GOING TO SAY, YOU KNOW, THE
POLICE ARE JUST AS BAD AS THE CAPITOL POLICE WERE, HE SAYS ON
JANUARY 6 AND HE'S GOING TO PARDON THE JANUARY 6 PRISONERS
AS IT CALLS THEM. THESE WERE PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, WE'RE
VERY NEAR TO ASSASSINATING THE VICE PRESIDENT AND CAPTURING
THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE. IS THIS WHO YOU WANT PROVIDING
LAW AND ORDER IN THIS COUNTRY? SO WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT, YOU
KNOW WHAT, WHAT CUTS THROUGH THAT? YOU KNOW, YOU AND CHRIS
ARE QUITE RIGHTLY TALKING ABOUT IF SOMEONE LIVES IN A PRO-TRUMP
NEWS BUBBLE THAT SAYS IT ALL. THIS IS SILLINESS. AND TRUMP IS
THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS BEEN OFFENDED AGAINST. HE'S A VICTIM
HERE. WHAT CUTS THROUGH THAT? WELL, 2 WORDS, A CONVICTED
FELON, SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN CONVICTED OF VIOLATING THE LAW
34 TIMES AND EVEN MORE THAN THAT DOES NOT GIVE TOO MUCH
PROMISE OF THE FILLING OF THE OATH THAT HE HAS TO TAKE AS
PRESIDENT TO PROTECT OUR CONSTITUTION AND OUR SYSTEM OF
LAW. IF YOU'RE A CONSERVATIVE AND YOU BELIEVE IN OUR OUR
SYSTEM AND HE WANTS THE GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT YOU AND
YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR BUSINESS AND YOUR COMMUNITY, HOW IS IT
HELPFUL TO HAVE A PRESIDENT, THE UNITED STATES SAYING THAT
THE SYSTEM THAT DOES THAT IS RIGGED AND SHOULD BE
DISREGARDED. >> JOINING US NOW FOR THE BIDEN
CAMPAIGN'S FIRST LIVE INTERVIEW SINCE THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE
CONVICTION. IT'S NATIONAL CO-CHAIR FOR
PRESIDENT BIDEN'S REELECTION CAMPAIGN, MITCH LANDRIEU.
MITCH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US THIS MORNING.
WE APPRECIATE. WELL, LET'S JUST START RIGHT THERE. WHAT IS THE
REACTION? WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO WHAT WE HEARD YESTERDAY?
A HISTORIC MOMENT, THE FIRST CONVICTION EVER OF A FOR
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES? WELL, I THINK THAT >> IT'S A VERY SOBER MOMENT FOR
THE COUNTRY IN A VERY SAD MOMENT FOR THE COUNTRY FALL OF
THE PEOPLE IN AMERICA. HAVE THE PRESIDENT ACTS PRESIDENT BECOME A CONVICTED FELON?
THAT'S NOTHING FOR ANYBODY TO HAVE A LOT OF JOY ABOUT.
BUT YESTERDAY YOU SAW DEMOCRACY WORK. ONE OF THE FUNDAMENTAL
TENETS OF DEMOCRACY IS THAT EVERYBODY IN THE UNITED STATES
IS SUBJECT TO THE RULE OF LAW THAT YOU COME BEFORE A JUDGE
AND A JURY OF YOUR PEERS, FACTS AND EVIDENCE HELD AND
THEN A VERDICT IS RENDERED. THAT IS WHAT A NATION THAT
RELIES ON LAWS NOT OF MEN IS SUPPOSED TO DO. AND AS A
CONSEQUENCE OF THAT TRIAL, DONALD TRUMP IS NOW A CONVICTED
FELON. BUT THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THE ONLY THING
THAT CAN STOP THEM FROM GETTING TO THE WHITE HOUSE IS THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE. THEY WILL BE THE FINAL JURY AS IT RELATES TO
WHO WAS A PRESIDENT UNITED STATES. AND THE CHOICE IS
REALLY, REALLY CLEAR. YOU CAN HAVE A GUY THAT'S A CONVICTED
FELON THAT HAS BEEN FOUND LIABLE OF DEFAMATION, SEXUAL
ABUSE AND BUSINESS FRAUD. AND NOW A CONVICTED FELON WHO
THANKS ABOUT HIMSELF. AND OF COURSE, EVERY WORD THAT COMES
OUT OF HIS MOUTH, THINGS ABOUT A REVENGE AGAINST PEOPLE WHO
GET ACROSS HIM OR YOU CAN HAVE JOE BIDEN WHO WAKES UP EVERY
DAY THINKING ABOUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DELIVERING MAKING SURE
THAT OUR DEMOCRACY IS A PROTECTED OUR FREEDOMS ARE
PROTECTED AND THAT HE MAKES LIFE BETTER FOR ALL AMERICANS.
THAT'S THE CHOICE BEFORE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND NOTHING
THAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY IS GOING TO CHANGE THAT FACT THAT
WE HAVE AN ELECTION ABOUT WHO AMERICA IS GOING TO BE FOR
YEARS TO COME IN A COUPLE MONTHS. >> SO YOU JUST FRAMED THE
SECRET NATIONAL SIGNIFICANCE OF YESTERDAY AND THE CHOICE TO
HEAD TO TELL US HOW WILL THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN USE THIS
VERDICT? HOW WE'RE INCORPORATING INTO YOUR YOUR
MESSAGING AND WHAT WILL THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF SAY? >> WELL, I WANT TO GET AHEAD OF
THE PRESIDENT. I DON'T HAVE ANY NEWS TO MAKE ON WHEN WHEN HE'LL
SPEAK, WHAT HE'LL SAY. HE'LL HE'LL ADDRESS IT IN IN TIME.
BUT IT IS A FACT NOW AND UNCOMFORTABLE FACT ALL OF US IN
AMERICA THAT DONALD TRUMP IS A CONVICTED FELON AND THE REASON
IT IT'S IMPORTANT TO THE CAMPAIGN, IS THIS TO BE THE
PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES WISDOM, CHARACTER AND JUDGMENT
ARE REALLY IMPORTANT. AND IF YOU WEIGH THAT UP AGAINST
DONALD TRUMP'S LIFE IN HIS PERSONAL LIFE AND HIS BUSINESS
LIFE IN HIS POLITICAL LIFE, EVERYTHING THAT HE IS TOUCHES
TOUCHES HAS TURNED TO DIRT. HE HAS USED THE POWER OF THE
PRESIDENCY TO HURT PEOPLE NOT TO HELP PEOPLE. JOE BIDEN, ON
THE OTHER HAND WAKES UP EVERY DAY, MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE
CREATING JOBS, THAT WE HAVE LOW UNEMPLOYMENT RATE, THAT WE'RE
PUTTING PEOPLE BACK TO WORK, THINKING ABOUT RESTORING
DEMOCRACY TO PEOPLE. BUT DEMOCRACY IS ON THE BALLOT,
MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT. AND THE FACT THAT DONALD TRUMP
AND ALL OF HIS ACOLYTES ARE NOW GOING TO ATTACK THE RULE OF
LAW, THEY'RE ATTACKING THE VERY FOUNDATION OF WHAT MAKES
AMERICA GREAT. SO IF EVERYBODY WANTS TO STOP THAT, YOU'VE GOT
TO GO TO THE POLLS, SIGN UP AND JOE BIDEN DOT COM COME WORK
WITH US, SAVE DEMOCRACY AND MAKE AMERICA A BETTER PLACE,
EVERYBODY. THAT'S WHAT JOE BIDEN WANTS TO DO. >> AS YOU JUST SUGGESTED, THE
FOR PRESIDENT AND A NUMBER OF REPUBLICANS, INCLUDING SHORT
TIME AGO, THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE MEMBERS OF THE SENATE
HAVE SAID THAT HAVE COMPARED TO WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY TO WHAT
HAPPENED IN A COMMUNIST NATION SAYING THAT THE AMERICAN JUST
SYSTEM FAILED HERE. LET'S LET'S LET'S GET YOUR YOUR REACTION TO
THAT. AND OUR DO YOU HAVE CONCERNS AS TO HOW THE FORMER
PRESIDENT AND THE REPUBLICANS MAY INCITE HIS SUPPORTERS AFTER
WHAT HAPPENED? >> WELL, I THINK THAT WE'RE AT
A VERY DELICATE MOMENT. JOE BIDEN HAS TALKED TO THIS 7
TIMES. HE'S GIVING A SPEECH ABOUT HOW FRAGILE DEMOCRACY CAN
BE, BUT YET HOW STRONG IT CAN BE IF PEOPLE JUST SHOW UP AND
VOTE, THERE'S A VERY STRONG AND CLEAR AND HE DO TO ANYTHING
THAT THE SPEAKER MIGHT BE SAYING ON THE ON THE PRESIDENT.
THE NEXT PRESIDENT MIGHT BE SAYING ALL OF WHICH ARE WRONG.
BY THE WAY, YOU HAVE TO GO TO THE POLLS AND VOTES. THAT'S HOW
IN A DEMOCRACY YOU STOP AUTOCRACIES FROM HAPPEN.
SO GO TO JOE BIDEN DOT COM. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP
HIM OUT OF THE OVAL OFFICE. AND THERE'S NOTHING THAT
HAPPENED YESTERDAY. THAT'S GOING TO RELIEVE THAT BURDEN,
TAKE THAT RESPONSIBILITY AWAY FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
BUT TO BE CLEAR, SPEAKER JOHNSON ALWAYS SAYS HE'S FROM
LOUISIANA. HE'S ACTUALLY KNOW, MIKE, I LIKE HIM THAT HE'S A
CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYER. THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED
STATES SAYS THAT WE ARE A NATION OF LAWS, NOT OF MEN.
IT ALLOWS FOR TRIAL BY JURY, WHICH IS ONE OF THE MOST
SACROSANCT THINGS IN A DEMOCRACY. IT ALSO CALLS FOR
THE PEACEFUL TRANSITION OF POWER. AND AS A RESULT OF
YESTERDAY, WE NOW KNOW THAT DONALD TRUMP TRIED TO STOP THE
ELECTION FROM BEING HELD IN A FREE AND FAIR WAY. AND THEN
AFTER IT WAS HELD, HE TRIED TO STOP THE PEACEFUL TRANSITION OF
POWER. YOU CAN'T HAVE 2 MORE GRAVE OR ASSAULTS ON DEMOCRACY
AND DEMOCRACY CANNOT HAVE A GREAT DEFENDER. THEN JOE BIDEN.
SO THIS CHOICE IS REALLY, REALLY CLEAR. YOU CAN HAVE
SOMEBODY THAT CARES ABOUT HIMSELF, HIS BILLIONAIRE
FRIENDS AND 6 RETRIBUTION AND HATE AND WANT TO DESTROY THIS
COUNTRY. YOU CAN PICK SOMEBODY THAT WAKES UP EVERY DAY
FIGHTING FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WHO IS GOING TO SAVE
DEMOCRACY OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. GIVE HIM A CHANCE. >> NATIONAL CO-CHAIR FOR
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN'S REELECTION CAMPAIGN, MITCH
LANDRIEU, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. >> DURING THE CONVERSATION, THE
RANKING MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE, DEMOCRATIC
CONGRESSMAN JAMIE RASKIN OF MARYLAND. CONGRESSMAN, THANKS
FOR BEING WITH US THIS MORNING. YOU HAVE SOME EXPERIENCE IN
HOLDING DONALD TRUMP ACCOUNTABLE IS THE LEAD
IMPEACHMENT MANAGER WHEN HE WAS THE DAYS AFTER JANUARY 6.
WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THIS SWEEPING VERDICT YESTERDAY?
34 COUNTS AND 34 VERDICTS OF GUILTY. >> WELL, THAT, YOU KNOW, MY
INITIAL REACTION WAS THANK GOD FOR THE JURY SYSTEM. WHEN WE
WENT OVER TO THE SENATE HAVING IMPEACH DONALD TRUMP FOR
INCITING AN INSURRECTION AGAINST THE UNION, THERE WAS A
TO 32 TO ONE 97 VOTE IN THE HOUSE AND WE WERE OVER IN THE SENATE FOR A WEEK
PRESENTING OUR CASE. AND I THINK THE EVIDENCE WAS
ABSOLUTELY OVERWHELMING. AND THE DEFENSE, AS IN THE NEW YORK CASE WAS
PRETTY NONEXISTENT. I MEAN, THEY DID NOT HAVE A COHERENT
COUNTER NARRATIVE TO TELL. AND YEAH, WE WERE ONLY ABLE TO
GET 57 OUT OF 100 VOTES. 57 TO 43, WHICH IS A PRETTY
COMMANDING MAJORITY. BUT WE NEEDED TWO-THIRDS. AND I JUST
FEEL LIKE THE JURY SYSTEM IS AN ESSENTIAL DEMOCRATIC PRACTICE,
AN INSTITUTION BECAUSE IT'S A MICROCOSM OF THE PEOPLE.
AND WHAT YOU GET IS COMMON SENSE. PEOPLE WERE WILLING TO
TAKEN ALL OF THE FACTS ON ALL OF THE SIDES. PEOPLE ARE
WILLING TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS JUSTICE SYSTEM. THAT INCLUDES
THE PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE. THAT INCLUDES THE RIGHT OF THE
DEFENDANT EITHER TO TESTIFY OR NOT TESTIFY AS DONALD TRUMP TO
CHOSE TO DO. AND WE'RE WILLING TO APPLY THE LAW TO THE FACTS.
AND SO TO ME, IT WAS A BEAUTIFUL THING TO WATCH.
OBVIOUSLY THE PROCESS IS NOT COMPLETELY PLAYED OUT THE
CONVICT A DEFENDANT. IN THIS CASE, DONALD TRUMP HAS THE
RIGHT TO APPEAL AND WE SHOULD ALL RESPECT TO THE APPEALS
PROCESS LIKE WE'RE RESPECTING THE TRIAL PROCESS. BUT I THINK
IT WAS A GREAT VICTORY FOR THE JUSTICE SYSTEM WITHIN LIBERAL
DEMOCRACY. >> YEAH. THAT CROSS SECTION OF
DONALD TRUMP'S PIERS IN NEW YORK CITY SAT AND LISTENED FOR
SEVERAL WEEKS, EVIDENCE AND TESTIMONY AND DECIDED YEAH, HE
DID IT ALL THAT. CONGRESSMAN, I KNOW YOU'RE NOT SURPRISE LIKE
WE'RE NOT SURPRISED BY THE RESPONSE FROM YOUR
CONGRESSIONAL COLLEAGUES ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE. BUT I'M CURIOUS FOR YOUR
REACTION, YOUR RESPONSE TO HOW EXTREME IT'S BEEN. YOU HAVE
PROMINENT UNITED STATES SENATORS SAYING WE ARE NOW A
BANANA REPUBLIC. SENATOR MARCO RUBIO SAYING THIS REMINDS THEM
OF THE STORIES HIS FAMILY WOULD TELL ABOUT CUBA WHERE THERE IS
NO RULE OF LAW. THE EXTREMISM THAT WE'RE HEARING EVEN FROM
THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE THIS MORNING ON TELEVISION SAYING
THE SUPREME COURT NEEDS TO STEP IN AND REVERSE THIS MISCARRIAGE
OF JUSTICE. WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO ALL OF THAT? >> WELL, THEY DONALD TRUMP HAS
BEEN LIKE PSYCHOLOGICAL AND COGNITIVE STRESS TEST FOR THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY AND IN SO MANY OF THEM HAVE FAILED. NOT ALL OF
THEM, NOT LIZ CHENEY, NOT MITT ROMNEY. THERE ARE A LOT OF THEM
WHO HAVE SAID NO, THEY DON'T WANT TO GO DOWN THE ROAD OF
BECOMING MEMBERS OF A CULT OF AUTHORITARIAN PERSONALITY.
BUT AT THIS POINT, MANY OF THEM ARE PERFECTLY WILLING TO
SURRENDER CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS AND EVERYTHING THEY KNOW
ABOUT THE LEGAL SYSTEM AND EVERYTHING THEY KNOW ABOUT
POLITICAL SCIENCE AND SIMPLY GIVE THEMSELVES OVER TO THE
CULT OF TRUMP. I MEAN, IMAGINE IF TRUMP WOKE UP AND DECIDED,
ALL RIGHT, THE GAME IS OVER. I'M GOING TO
BUT IT ALL OF THESE CRIMES, ALL OF THESE OFFENSES AGAINST
THE CONSTITUTION. WHAT WOULD THEY DO AT THAT POINT? WOULD
THEY STILL BE YELLING? NO, NO, LET'S STICK WITH TRUMP.
LET'S KEEP GOING DOWN THE ROAD TO AUTHORITARIANISM. BUT IT
SHOWS THAT THEY ARE REALLY ACTING LIKE MEMBERS OF A
RELIGIOUS COLTS WHO ARE SLEEPING ON THE BASEMENT FLOOR
SOMEPLACE JUST LISTENING TO THE TAPES OF THE CULT LEADER. >> SO, CONGRESSMAN, ON THE
ISSUE OF THE SUPREME COURT, WE KNOW THE CHIEF JUSTICE
ROBERTS HAS DECIDED TO NOT MEET WITH DEMOCRATS ABOUT THE
BEHAVIOR OF JUSTICE ALITO AND THOMAS. BUT YOU HAVE A PIECE
THAT YOU WROTE FOR YOUR TIME THIS WEEK SAYING THERE'S A WAY
TO FORCE THOSE TO JUSTICE TO RECUSE THEMSELVES FROM JANUARY
6 CASES. CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT TO US? >> WELL, IT'S CALLED THE WRIT
OF MANDAMUS AND THAT WAS THE RIG THAT WAS USED IN MARBURY
VERSUS MADISON. AND IT SAID A RED WHERE THE SUPREME COURT IN
A CASE WHERE DOES JURISDICTION, YOU CAN TELL A FEDERAL OFFICIAL
HERE, I ARGUE, INCLUDING A SUPREME COURT JUSTICE TO
PERFORM A MINISTERIAL ACT IN THE ACT IN THIS CASE IS THE
ACTIVE JUDICIAL RECUSAL, WHICH IS COMPELLED, I THINK, BY
THE SUPREME COURT'S OWN PRECEDENTS IN THE FIELD.
AND SO I CAMPUS SOME OF THE DIFFERENT CASES WHERE THE COURT
DECIDED THAT THERE NEEDED TO BE RECUSAL BECAUSE THERE WAS AN
OBJECTIVE REALITY OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THE
IMPARTIALITY OF THE JUDGE. AND SO WHAT THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID
IN THESE CASES IS THAT WHAT MATTERS IS NOT WHETHER THE
JUSTICE OR THE JUDGE THINKS FOR HIMSELF THAT HE OR SHE CAN BE
IMPARTIAL. THE QUESTION IS, WHAT IS THE REASONABLE
APPEARANCE TO THE REST OF THE WORLD? AND AND, YOU KNOW, I
CLOSE OUT BY TALKING ABOUT CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS IS AN
ANALOGY HE ADVANCED DURING HIS CONFIRMATION HEARINGS ABOUT A
JUDGE BEING LIKE AN UMPIRE. WELL, IMAGINE AN UMPIRE IN THE
WORLD SERIES OF BASEBALL WHO WAS FLYING THE FLAG OR THE
PENNANTS OF ONE OF THE TEAMS COMPETING. WOULD ANYBODY THINK
THAT THAT UMPIRE COULD ACTUALLY BE A NEUTRAL, IMPARTIAL
OBJECTIVE EFFICIENT IN THE GAME? I DON'T THINK SO. WHAT IF
THE UMPIRES WIFE WAS TRYING TO OVERTURN THE SCORE IN THE LAST
GAME, WHICH WAS THE OFFICIAL FINAL SCORE AND WAS TRYING TO
SAY, LET'S KEEP GOING, LET'S MAKE THIS HAPPEN. WOULD ANYONE
THINK THAT AN UMPIRE IN THAT SITUATION COULD PROCEED?
AND I'VE BEEN HEARING FROM PEOPLE IN THE BASEBALL FIELD
AND PEOPLE ARE UMPIRES SAYING NONE OF THESE PEOPLE WOULD EVER
BE ALLOWED TO OFFICIATE IN A GAME. AND YET THESE SUPREME
COURT JUSTICES HAVE BEEN ALLOWED ESSENTIALLY TO BE A
JUDGE IN THEIR OWN CASE AND TO PROCEED. >> ALRIGHT, RANKING MEMBER OF
THE HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE, CONGRESSMAN JAMIE RASKIN.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH. AND DOUG,
