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because sometimes existing is exhausting. My name's Anthony Padilla
and I spent a day with criminologists. We'll uncover what it's like to sit
face to face with some of the most notorious
serial killers in the world, how it feels to be told by a cannibal
that they want to eat you, and we'll break down what truly separates the common person
from the most sadistic serial killer. By the end of this video, we'll find out if these criminologists
find their work entirely gratifying or if they wish they'd never stepped into this line of work in the first place after their constant exposure
to the absolute darkest side of man. Hello Laura. Hey. Scott. Hi, how are you? Amanda. Hi, how are you? Can you define what a criminologist does? Criminology is the study
of criminals and criminal behavior. You're looking for patterns,
you're looking for correlations, and you're looking at the sociology, and also the psychology of crime to help hopefully prevent crime in the future. For me, it's about research,
it's about interviewing serial killers, it's about going through the nuances
of their life. I spend a lot of time either
face-to-face or telephones, going through interview tapes
and going through body language and non-verbal and verbal cues. I've spoken to a whole gamut of them across the genre of the term serial killer. I go deep into their cases,
I get the police files, I get the court transcripts,
I talk to their family members, their friends even. I do a complete deep dive. What I seek to do is try to debunk
many stereotypes and misinformation that are out there in the world
about crime and murder. What have been some of the biggest
cases that you've worked on? Dennis Rader, who called himself
Bind-Torture-Kill and David Berkowitz who called himself the Son of Sam. Bobby Joe Long in Florida,
Arthur Shawcross in New York, David Berkowitz, spoken to Charles Manson,
Richard Ramirez. Everybody knows me
for obviously the Tool Box Killers. People have said that the Tool Box Killers may be the most sadistic serial
killers that they've ever heard of. I've interviewed over 50 serial killers but I've never seen that level of sadism. Bittaker and Norris had a van. They would kidnap the girls and bring
them up to San Gabriel Mountain. They had a toolbox
under a makeshift bed in the van and they would use the tools for torture
and I mean brutal brutal torture. It was all audiotaped. It's now not released to the public,
withheld in the FBI. It's used for training purposes. The lead detective on this case
killed himself over this tape. The content on those tapes, the sounds
on those tapes were so haunting. It's caused people to take their own lives. Once you hear something or see something
like that there's no going back. Do you remember the first time
that you worked with a serial killer? The first serial killer I ever met
with was Lawrence Bittaker. It was so awkward. Once they take the cuffs
off him and you're padlocked, we just stared at each other. We started just talking. I remember I asked him ago, why are you a serial killer
and why am I not a serial killer? He just looked at me and he was like "Some
people like broccoli, some people don't. Do you want to kill?" I was like "No, I've actually
no desire at all. He was like, "That's your answer." Can you describe what it feels
like to be sitting in a room face-to-face with someone
that you know has brutally tortured and killed so many people? It's very jarring. You are in a tiny little dog-styled
cage with these serial killers. Do you feel like you're risking
your life each time you're going there or have you just gotten
so used to it that it's just like, "Whatever, this is my job."? Yes. Now, it's just
like I'm going to brunch or breakfast. I build that real authentic trust rapport. Once I'm in a cage with them, it's friendly. What approach do you take
when talking to a serial killer? Every time I go in,
I'm just like a blank slate. When you're there to truly help,
they can sense that. Once they start talking,
they're going to keep going and going. Sometimes you can even just sit back and they're going to hang
themselves with their own tongue, reveal stuff maybe
they didn't intentionally want to tell you or try to hold back on. It's going to emerge. It scares me sometimes
to think am I a psychopath and that's why I get through to them, but it's also about knowing
what to ask certain killers and to know
that that is going to be the entrance to a long-term dialogue. Some of these I've spoken to for 20,
30 years We actually have a clip
from one of your interviews that hasn't been publicly released elsewhere where you are talking to a serial killer and almost playing some mind
games by joking around and making the subject
matter seem really light, to see if he will back
himself up into a corner and admit to these things
that he was accused of, right? Yes, I'll just play
it from my phone on speaker. Did I start these rumors? Was it me? Holy cow. I'm rumor central. No, it's just hard to argue
when you have a human breast, when you're turning yourself
into a police department and they have the mutilated body. I know, I was like,
"Hey, this doesn't belong to me." [laughs] Now, here I am. [laughs] Well, you had human remains on you. That's what they say. I was walking down the street
minding my own business and all of a sudden-- Oh, and somebody just planted
a human breast in your pocket? I know. I know. That's what happened? I gave it to the cops. What's a good citizen supposed to do? Oh, that makes perfect sense. It all makes sense now. I know. I'm totally a good Samaritan. Yes. [laughs] [laughs] Who's playing games now. You're very clever. Yes. I'm trying to keep up with you right now. He turned himself in with a dismembered Human breast. Human breast in his pocket? Yes. Severed breast in a ziploc bag,
in his pocket. He literally slapped it on the desk when he walked into the police station. He was scared
that they weren't going to believe him. What he's told me, and he brought
literally physical evidence. I use the dark humor a lot with
them to make them more comfortable. I've actually gotten a couple
of confessions from using dark humor. Do you think that's because it makes
these heinous acts seem a little bit more light because you're able to joke about it? They feel safer, in a sense, to go deeper about their crimes
and their actions. They almost feel like, "Okay,
well, she's making jokes about it," so they actually start to open up more,
and more, and more. You've gotten a lot
of information from serial killers that others have not been
able to get out of them at all. The Tool Box Killers, for example, you actually had a map drawn that pinpointed where certain bodies were buried. It was about 15 months. We've changed over 100 maps
back and forth trying to figure out where the girls were. It was actually really
surreal because we talked about it for nearly two years
and he had pinpointed everything and I knew exactly where to go. The girls still have metal on them, so my next thing I did
was I got a metal detector and I brought the metal detector up on the mountain
roads with Andrea's sister and we got a metal detector hit
on the exact spot that he gave. It's pretty wild that he can have the memory of the exact
pinpointed location on a map and know how to describe
it in such detail that you can find it. Just as we have that memory
recall for a significant time in our lives or day in our lives, they have the same recall for their murders. [music] Are there any shocking
takeaways or realizations that you've had since working
in criminology and with serial killers? I just remember the first time
I picked up the textbook about Bittaker and Norris and I dropped
the book thinking, "Oh, my God, are these guys human? They're demons." Then I go on to death row and I'm talking to him. We start talking, I get to know him and I get to know
his life and I'm like, "Okay, well, yes, I see how this happened,
this happened, this happened." It took away that dissolution
of this person's a monster, but rather a very, very hurt, flawed human being who took
his anger out on the world. Not all psychopaths become serial killers and not all serial killers are psychopaths,
but there is a correlation there. It's been estimated that perhaps 40% to 50% of all serial killers are in fact,
psychopaths. Psychopathy is innate, that you were born with a different brain
that functions differently. Even then, something has to happen,
something has to trigger it. Psychopaths don't just suddenly
wake up one day and say, "Today is a great day
to become a serial killer." What are some of the commonalities that you find
between different serial killers? It's not like A plus B equals C. We do see those that had massive
childhood trauma, those that were abused by parents, those that were attacked
as children by strangers. That imprints on them
a warped sense of what reality is and they feel that they have a loss
of control in their own lives, especially growing up, when they should have been able
to have that innocence. It's been taken
so they then need to get that back and how they do it is by inflicting the pain that they're feeling on others. Often, they may select a victim
type that matches what they went through as a child so they might kill
children because of their childhood. Others might have a disgust with
sex and so they would kill sex workers. Some just do it because that person
looked at them wrong or walked past them. The biggest thing I see
with the childhood is neglect. The ones who have an absentee father,
neglectful father, abusive father, they target men
and then the same with the mother. If the mother break down,
I'll see them targeting more women. [music] Why do you think it is that people
are so fascinated by serial killers? It's simply a, "Who done it?" At one level, it's a mystery story
that compels us and intrigues us. There is a fascination with
once again this concept of evil and the horrible things
that these individuals do. We want to get close to it,
we want to understand it, we want to try to wrap our minds around it but we want to do it in a very safe environment. These TV shows allow us to do that. Serial killers have become pop
culture icons, Son of Sam, killer Clown, Ted Bundy, the Zodiac. These are almost brand names
that are indelible in our popular culture and I sought to understand why. Once you delve into this and go
down the rabbit hole, it's unbelievable the things that you find. Serial killers are similar to the way the public looks at great white sharks. What do they have in common? I would say three things. Both of them are very rare,
they're very exotic, and they're deadly, and there's this tremendous fascination. There's also that side that empathetic
side of trying to understand what it would really feel
like to be so helpless in such an unimaginable distressing way. Certain individuals are drawn
to this true-crime programming and serial killer programming
because they identify with the victim. I think this is particularly true of women. The true-crime audience
skews heavily toward females. I believe it's because women, in particular, identify with the victims
in these stories because, in the vast majority of stories,
the victims are women. We've all probably said it one
time or another, "Oh, my boss, he's driving me crazy,
I could just kill that guy," but we don't really do it. The thought stops there. It doesn't go to action
but I think there are many of us who do wonder under an extreme
circumstance, under duress, what might I be capable of? What have been some of the most bizarre situations
that you found yourself in? This is a picture of me
standing next to David Berkowitz and we are standing in front of,
which if you can tell, it's a painted mural of a beach scene. I was given the opportunity
to have a old-fashioned polaroid picture taken with David Berkowitz. Here we are in a maximum-security
fortress prison and I'm having my little memorabilia picture taken like I'm at Disneyland. There was a meet and greet
where you got to choose the backdrop and take a picture with a serial killer that is now immortalized
in many ways like a mascot. Isn't that wild? There's things like Arthur Shawcross, who after many years I've spoken to him,
he wanted to eat me. He actually sent me a jambalaya
recipe where I was the meat protein in it. He was going to take several
pounds from my buttocks and cook that in the jambalaya. It's not a meal I would ever eat
purely because that's scarred on me. No more jambalaya for Amanda? No, no, no. [laughs] I've had killers ask
if they can move into my house when they get released. I've had marriage proposals. That's how endeared they feel to you and how much you butter them up to tell you all their deepest darkest secrets. They literally think
that you're going to get married and they're going to bring more roommates. Bobby Joe Long proposed to me
twice and then when I said no, he actually asked me
to go to his executions. I don't know what you put yet-- Close to a wedding to some people. That's how my life goes. [chuckles] [music] You tend to feel a lot
of empathy for the victims and those affected by all this. Was it always that way? I found it easy to step away
from serial killers and leave them and go away and come back. I lost my husband and he took
his own life just a couple of years ago. To know what he went
through in those last moments and to know how long those moments
lasted is horrific to even think about. It made me realize I'm of that butterfly
effect of someone's death because though we talk
about the victims being killed, it's the others around them,
it's their families, it's their partners, it's their children who have to continue
with that grieving process. [music] Do you think that it's pure evil? Before we learn more about that,
I want to let you know that the podcast version
of the show is completely uncensored and you can find
this episode along with others like I spent today with crime scene cleaners and I spent today with
kidnapping survivors, over there, by clicking the link
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so listen very [beep] closely. That's Better, H-E-L-P.com/padilla. Now, back to the world of criminology. Do you think that it's pure evil? They aren't evil, they are cowardly,
they are reviled, they are people that are on the fringes of society without us actually knowing it. They fit
in but it's because of that manipulation they can live in their own fantasy world and then they can compartmentalize it,
put it away, so then they can continue
with their normal life. If they were evil,
they would be an animal in a cage, because it's uncontrolled but they aren't, they are very controlled
and that's why we can't call them evil. There is so many other facets
of their personality and their mental makeup
that actually makes it far more wide-reaching than that. I actually think the label
of evil is a very dangerous and ultimately not useful term. I think it's much more useful
to understand the causality of this and what drove these individuals
to do these evil actions in the first place.When you put
the label of evil on something, it wraps it up, has the label
attached to it, I can put it aside, now I don't need to think about it anymore. No trying to understand it,
it's black and white, I know
that it's good versus bad and it's bad and that's all there is to it. Therefore, it's not so frightening
anymore because I know the truth, the truth is it's just evil. [music] What is it about being a criminologist
that brings you the most joy? Talk to the victims' families. Tears of just joy because you're able
to bring this to the family. That's just remarkable
and incredible in and of itself, but even with working
with the serial killers, you see those breakthrough moments, those transformational moments
or when those things click, you're having these crazy very profound
deep experiences, do it in a way
that you can actually help the world and that's the biggest mission,
is to shine a light on darkness. If there's anyone watching who has lost
a loved one to a violent crime and feels a deep sense of injustice, they feel completely
forgotten by the justice system, is there anything you want to say to them? I always say to people, "Pop bang." Bang as loud as you can. Just keep banging and banging
as loud and for as long as you can. You have to be really, really proactive and be really aggressive. Reach out to all the experts,
get to the news stations, podcasts, YouTube, everything, do whatever
you can possibly to get it out there. What do you think is the biggest misconception
about criminologists? People often think
that I am out there with a gun and a badge chasing the bad guy. Oh, you're not a serial killer hunter? [laughs] Wow,
I thought I was interviewing someone else. I'm not Van Helsing, chasing Dracula. [laughs] My weapon is the uh computer and the pen. You can listen to me on the Monsters
Who Murder Confessions Podcast, and you can also visit my Memento Mori Death Museum that's a troubling exhibition. You can follow me on Instagram
Laura Bran @Siren_Of_San_Quentin. The Tool Box Killers is a documentary, and my book will be coming out soon. It's called What Hell is Like: The Untold Stories of the Tool Box Killers. Check out my work on Twitter. I have a prime blog called Wicked Deeds. My popular best-selling book
Why We Love Serial Killers: The Curious Appeal
of the World's Most Savage Murders available on Amazon. Well there you have it. I spent a day with criminologists, and I realized how despite it being tempted to write something awful as just pure evil, a human connection is required to understand the mind of those we disagree with most, and how media coverage can guide
our interpretation of an event without any focus on the way
that these events affect the victims and their loved ones. [music] I have a Zodiac Killer costume. [laughs] You have a Zodiac Killer costume? I do. I have the hood. Do you need me to get up and get it? Oh, I do. Yes, I need you to go up and get it. You have it right there? That's the head and it's got the zodiac. I had that made for my museum
with the other giant head I have of serial killers
so people can actually -
