We've just gotten the full transcripts
of the contentious testimony between Michael Cohen and the former
president's defense attorneys. They have come out, we should point out, that opposing counsel in the Hush Money
trial got a preview of Michael Cohen as a witness back in October
when he testified in the former president's civil fraud trial, including
how he would handle the credibility issue. This is what he said
ahead of that testimony. Credibility should not be in question. Yes, I pled guilty to a 1001 violation,
which was lying to Congress. But I also requested that people
continue the sentence and the sentences. I did it at the direction of in concert
with and for the benefit of Donald J. Trump. Joining us now with those transcripts
is our very own John Berman. So they defense is painting Michael Cohen
as a man who hates Trump, is bent on revenge. What are some of the highlights
or lowlights? Well, in this case,
I suppose there should be a warning here about language because, you know, it
crosses over from PG 13 into rated R here. You spoke a little bit
about how Todd Blanch right out of the gate
said crying little. Yes. You know, he said the word here. About 5 minutes later,
he dipped in even more to some greatest hits from Michael Cohen.
He's talking about Cohen's Tik Tok. You also talked on social media
during this trial about President Trump, have you not?
Michael Cohen says sounds correct. Yes, Blanch says so, for example, on April 23rd,
which is after the trial started, correct? Cohen says, yes. You referred to President Trump
as Dictator D bag, didn't you? Cohen says, Sounds like something I said,
which, by the way, is one of the answers he gives very commonly or
sounds like something I said, Blanch says. And on that same ticktock. So again, on April 23rd,
you referred to President Trump when he left the courtroom
and you said he goes right into that little cage,
which is where he belongs, in an f ing little cage like an animal. Do you recall saying that? Cohen says, I recall saying that. And then a few minutes later in the trial,
Blanch starts talking about his podcast, Cohen's podcast,
and says, You recall the first one in 2020 as a Cheeto dusted cartoon villain,
something he called Trump, Cohen says. That also sounds like something
I said again. His common response. Now, Blank says, now, do you recall around that same time,
October 2020, you started talking about your hope that Trump
would be convicted of a crime, correct? Cohen says, I don't know if those are the exact words
that I said, but the sentiment is correct. You think you might have said, I truly f
ing hope that this man ends up in prison? Is that exact? Cohen says,
It sounds like my language on may culpa. The fact that Michael Cohen
so obviously an over the top is consumed by hatred
for Donald Trump and wants him in prison and celebrating and is selling
t shirts is outrageous. We sort of take it for granted
because this has just been Michael Cohen's public persona for the last five,
six years. But this should be a bonanza
for cross-examination with three federal former
federal prosecutors here. What would you do
if you found out the eve of a big trial that your star witness was selling
T-shirts, showing the defendant in prison and you'd have to think hard
about dismissing the case? That is a major flaw in the defense. Specially if he's Cheeto dusted. Yeah, that would be mean. You're right. Look, Michael Cohen has a sort of way
with words that can get funny, but, you know, laughing about a defendant
going to jail is. I think it's offensive to the jury. That's not for Michael Cohen
to say that about. That's the worst part of all the things
that that Cohen has said. It's one thing to say he's terrible. I don't like him. You know, use all sorts of swear words. But if you are talking about the results
of this case, I mean, that's what this case is about, whether Donald Trump
is eligible to go to prison or not. And you have Cohen campaigning for that. That's a very negative. Negative. And Blair and Kushner
spent the first hour on that. Well, I mean, I don't think
the jury is going to forget it. He spent he spent some time on it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think we also have to remember,
these jurors are not like we are, right. I mean,
they may not be watching everything. Prior testimonial stuff that go into said. And so our expectations
about how he would perform and what he would do
might be a little different than what their expectations are. But he's he is the crucial witness. I mean, I disagree with you about the
you know, have they proved the case? Because I went back
to look at the indictment today. And, you know, basically
they've got to show that he intended to commit another crime,
not that he tried to help his campaign. They've got to show that he actually had
the intent to commit another crime. And I don't think
they've gotten there yet. And that's what that's what they hope
they've got there with Cohen. But that's he's got to be the one. And so without that, that's
why they're trying to ding his credibility happen, you know, time after time. And whether it's through the comments that
he makes on social media with, you know, how he acts on the stand, you know,
the wishy washy ness of his answers. I mean, that's what they're after and say,
look, you can't believe it. But don't forget, he ran a tape
on his client, didn't tell anybody to you. You believe that they have proof? Yeah, I think they have. And I think, you know,
when you're dealing with a cooperator, what you have to think about
is corroboration. Federal prosecutors
have all kinds of prosecutors every day. They put up murderers, for example,
and they're cooperators. They put up all kind of people
who do done awful, terrible things, much worse than selling t shirts
and wishing that someone goes down. They've tried to kill people. They've killed sometimes
the victims in that very case. And juries believe them because if you're going to challenge
the credibility, you have to place it
against a corroboration. I think that's
where the counternarrative of explaining why is Donald Trump
citing these 35,000 law checks again and again and again,
They're obviously not for legal fees. I don't think that's
a reasonable explanation. So I think the Cohen question is going
to come down to the corroboration. When the jury goes back and they think
about all of these witnesses, they think about these documents, they think about
what is a reasonable conclusion here, because it's beyond a reasonable doubt,
not beyond all doubt. And I think that's really the real
challenge for the former president here. But you don't go
you don't make an ax murderer. You're cooperator
to prove a jaywalking case. And that's sort of where we're at. I mean, they've taken somebody and he's
got all this baggage and all this stuff, and he can't keep his mouth shut
even during the trial. And they put him forward to prove
basically a documents case. And I think that may hang with your
I agree with you. You know, you've got somebody
and you're prosecuting El Chapo and you want to bring in the somebody
that's cut off hands and sold drugs and carries guns and all that as you're cooperating,
because that's the one closest to the organization,
you might have to do it. Our member of the Hells Angels or whatever
it is. But here, you know, you're using a guy
that is so compromised, I think, and they had to spend their whole case
trying to pre him to to clean him up. I just saw the guy who the former president chose
to have by his side for 20 something. That's that's actually I mean, that's the point
when it comes to the optics of how the jury sees this
and how they are taking in. Michael Cohen,
maybe they don't know everything, but I mean, for everything
that Michael Cohen has said about Donald Trump,
Donald Trump has said about Michael Cohen, they've shown those tweets
to the jury as well, where Donald Trump criticized Michael Cohen
for doing what Paul Manafort did not the fact that Paul Manafort went to jail
and saying that he would not flip and talking about Michael Cohen did and saying no one should retain
the legal services of Michael Cohen. Well, Donald Trump did retain the legal
services of Michael Cohen for ten years. And we're talking about payments
that he made to Michael Cohen at the heart of this. I also think the other thing
that that Todd pledge got into
and I'm sure he'll get more into it, you know, speaking of how much he made off of his books
and after the post-presidency or not being in the White House, it's
not clear how the jury will take that. It's not like Trump as a normal defendant. While we talked about Trump's wealth
and how it's overstated, he is still a really wealthy person. And so it's not clear
that this jury of regular people is seeing, you know, Michael Cohen
and Stormy Daniels making money as this great sin of get counting
against them, given Donald Trump's wealth. John, what more do Cohen say on the stand about Trump's involvement
with the payments? He said it was pretty direct,
and this was in the direct examination in the morning where Susan Hopfinger
continued what she did yesterday. We have an exchange here
about the payments to Stormy Daniels, which was ground. They covered yesterday, Officer says. Why, in fact,
did you pay that money to Stormy Daniels? Cohen says to ensure that the story
would not come out would not affect Mr. Trump's chances of becoming president. United States often here,
if not for the campaign. Mr. Cohen, would you have paid that money
to Stormy Daniels? Cohen says no, ma'am. Todd Black issues an objection
the judge overrules. It, says, You can answer. Cohen says, No, ma'am. Then often you're asked at whose direction
and on whose behalf did you commit that crime? And then, Cohen says, on behalf of Mr. Trump, I do wonder if that gets to
the point you were bringing up, Michael. You talk about that for a second. I just want to very quickly say they also got in the direct examination
into the Oval Office visit, which is something Caitlyn's
been talking about for some time, where Cohen says,
I was sitting with President Trump and he asked me if I was okay
in the Oval Office. He asked me if I needed money. I said no. All good,
he said, because I can get a check. And I said, no. I said, I'm okay. He said, All right, just make sure you deal
with Allen as in Allen Weisselberg. And often you're asked, did he say anything about
what would be forthcoming to you? Cohen says, Yes, It would be a check
for January and February. And then at that point in time,
you had not yet been reimbursed for the payments you had
made. Is Stormy Daniels, Cohen says. No, ma'am. This is a perfect example of what you and
Michael were just talking about, that meeting. The fact that that meeting occurred
is corroborated 5000 different ways. There's emails,
there's text, There's there's testimony from Matlin, who was the secretary outside
the Oval Office. No question that meeting happened. No question when it happened. But as to what exactly was said,
that's really just Michael Cohen's word. And so he is corroborated, but he's not
all the way corroborated the jury. They can't get around the fact
that the jury has to put some faith in Michael Cohen's word, especially
about the purpose of the payments. I mean, that's the and that's
very important part of this case is that, you know, did this money,
you know, was it a reimbursement? I think there's a lot of proof about that. But also the the the records,
the business records that are allegedly false,
they have to trust COHEN That COHEN that that Trump knew
the records were false. That's really on. COHEN
And that's a big part of the claim. BERMAN Thanks very much.
