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>> Stephen: HEY THERE, AND WELCOME BACK. MY FIRST GUEST IS A PULITZER
PRIZE-WINNING REPORTER AND AUTHOR OF THE BOOKS "WAR ON
PEACE" AND "CATCH AND KILL." PLEASE WELCOME TO "A LATE SHOW,"
RONAN FARROW! RONAN, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN. >> GREAT TO BE HERE, STEPHEN. GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN. >> Stephen: WE HAVE NOT TALKED
DURING COVID, RIGHT? >> THIS IS WEIRD BUT GOOD. >> Stephen: YOU HAVE BEEN VERY
BUSY DURING LOCKDOWN REPORTING FOR "THE NEW YORKER," ON THE
CAPITOL ATTACK, AND ALSO THE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST GOVERNOR
CUOMO. UHM, LET'S TALK ABOUT CUOMO
FIRST. HOW LEGAL IS WEED GOING TO GET
IN NEW YORK, JUST TO DISTRACT US FROM WHAT'S GOING ON IN ALBANY? >> IT WILL BE MANDATORY. IT'S, YOU KNOW, WHO CAN SAY WHAT
FUTURE STORIES BRING. CLEARLY, THIS IS A POLITICAL
TEAM THAT IS VERY EMBATTLED RIGHT NOW. THERE'S A LOT OF REPORTERS THAT
ARE CONTINUING TO CIRCLE. I DON'T THINK WE'VE SEEN THE END
OF THAT STORY. >> Stephen: WE'VE MADE-- THE
DAY BEFORE WE FOUND OUT THAT YOU WERE ACTUALLY DOING AN ARTICLE
ABOUT THE GOVERNOR, I MADE A JOKE ABOUT THE NUMBER OF
ACCUSATIONS AGAINST HIM. IT WAS SOMETHING LIKE SEVEN AT
THAT POINT. AND I SAID, "ONE MORE, AND YOU
GET A FREE ARTICLE BY RONAN FARROW." WHILE YOUR CAREER RUNS THE GAMUT
OF SUBJECTS, YOU-- YOU HAVE BEEN-- ACHIEVED SOME NOTORIETY
FOR YOUR WRITING ON THE ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR OF MEN IN THE
WORKPLACE, MOSTLY. WHAT'S THAT LIKE WHEN YOU CALL
SOMEONE TO INVESTIGATE ANYTHING? WHAT-- HOW DO PEOPLE REACT,
ESPECIALLY POWERFUL MEN, WHEN SOMEONE SAYS, "RONAN FARROW IS
ON THE PHONE FOR YOU"? >> YOU KNOW, IT'S A
COUNSEL-EDGED SWORD. MOSTLY VERY GRATEFUL, BECAUSE
WHATEVER NAME RECOGNITION I HAVE FOR HOPEFULLY DOING A THOROUGH
JOB WITH THESE KINDS OF INVESTIGATIVE STORIES, WANT TO
TALK MORE. YOU ARE CORRECT IN SURMISING
OCCASIONALLY I WILL CALL SOMEONE, TYPICALLY A PROMINENT
PERSON IN A POSITION OF POWER AND GET A SWIFT HANG-UP, OR HEAR
FROM INTERMEDIARIES THAT THEY ABSOLUTELY UNDER NO
CIRCUMSTANCES WILL THEY TALK TO ME. THERE ARE A FEW TIMES I THINK, I
WONDER WHY. AND A FEW WEEKS LATER IT'S VERY
CLEAR WHY. >> Stephen: THE LAST TIME WE
SPOKE YOU TALKED ABOUT BEING TAILED BY LITERAL SPIES, LIKE
PROFESSIONAL SPIES WHO HAVE BEEN HIRED BY WEINSTEIN TO TRAIL
AROUND AND TRY TO GET SOME SORT OF DIRT ON YOU, OR TO INTIMIDATE
YOU IN SOME WAY. YOU-- YOU'VE TALKED TO SOME
PRETTY SKETCHY CHARACTERS IN YOUR DAY, AND THEN-- AND
RECENTLY, PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY WERE PART OF THE ASSAULT ON
CAPITOL HILL ON JANUARY 6. WHAT HAS THAT BEEN LIKE? HAS THERE BEEN ANY FALLOUT FROM
THOSE PEOPLE? IS THAT A THREATENING SITUATION
TO BE IN, TO TALK FACE TO FACE WITH THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE
VIOLENCE AS PART OF THEIR VOCABULARY? >> THIS IS ALWAYS A TOUGH THING
TO TALK ABOUT BECAUSE I AM NOT A REPORTER IN PAKISTAN REPORTING
ON THE SECRETS OF THE PAKISTANI INTELLIGENCE SERVICE. YOU KNOW, I'M NOT GOING TO GET
KILLED TOMORROW IN THE STREET, PROBABLY. WE'RE VERY LUCK TOW LIVE IN A
COUNTRY WITH FIRST AMENDMENT AND GREAT LAW ENFORCEMENT. SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS ON THE
LESSER END OF THE GLOBAL SCALE OF WHAT JOURNALISTS GO UP
AGAINST. THAT SAID, YOU KNOW, IT'S WORTH
TALKING ABOUT I THINK THAT REPORTERS IN THIS COUNTRY GET
ALL SORTS OF THREATS. SOMETIMES THEY'RE LEGAL THREATS,
YOU KNOW THREATS OF SMEARS IN THE PRESS. THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF
MECHANISMS THAT I'VE REPORTED ON AND TALKED ABOUT. IN THIS CASE, THE STORY YOU'RE
MENTIONING, THE CAPITOL RIOTS, I DID TALK TO A NUMBER OF QUITE
VOLATILE PEOPLE. I THINK YOU'RE PROBABLY ALLUDING
TO ONE GENTLEMAN WHO, YOU KNOW, MADE SOME THREATS TO MY PHYSICAL
SAFETY, WHICH HAPPENS. IT'S AN OCCUPATIONAL HAZARD. >> Stephen: WELL, I AGREE WITH
YOU THAT WE'RE LUCKY WE LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE THERE IS
GENERALLY ORDER AND THAT THERE IS LAW AND ORDER. BUT WE SAW THE LIMITATIONS OF
TAT ON JANUARY 6. I'M WONDERING WHETHER ANY OF THE
PEOPLE THAT YOU SPOKE TO HAVE HAD A-- FOR LACK OF A BETTER
WORD, AND PARDON THE EXPRESSION-- A "COME TO JESUS"
ON THIS? HAVE THE PEOPLE YOU HAVE SPOKEN
TO IN THE REPORTING OF THE AFTERMATH OF JANUARY 6 COME TO
THE REALIZATION THAT THEY DID THE WRONG THING? OR HAVE THEY COME TO THE
REALIZATION THAT THEY WERE MISLED? HAVE THEY RETOOLED THEIR ANGER
IN A NEW DIRECTION? >> FAR FROM IT. THERE WAS A POLL THAT CAME OUT A
COUPLE OF DAYS ANOTHER STEPHEN, FROM REUTERS SAYING MORE THAN
HALF REPUBLICANS IN THE COUNTRY-- NOT JUST THOSE
INVOLVED-- BUT HALF REPUBLICANS BELIEVE THIS WAS A FAKE SETUP
THAT LEFT-WING ACTIVISTS CONSTRUCTED THIS RIOT TO MAKE
TRUMP LOOK BAD. THE F.B.I. SAYS VERY CLEARLY
THAT'S NOT THE TRUTH. I HAVE NOT, IN MY REPORTING,
SEEN ANY EVIDENCE THAT THERE'S ANY TRUTH TO THAT. SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT A NUMBER
LIKE THAT AND SEE HOW WIDE THE GULF IS BETWEEN DIFFERENT
UNDERSTANDINGS OF THESE EVENTS, YOU SEE HOW THIS IS NOT A
PROBLEM AND A DIVISION THAT'S GOING TO GO AWAY. AND THE SOURCES THAT I'VE STAYED
IN TOUCH WITH HAVE NOT BACKED DOWN. WE TALKED ABOUT SOME OF THOSE
THREATS FROM THAT ONE GENTLEMAN, DONOVAN CROWELE, WHO HAS BEEN
SIGNIFICANT IN THE ONGOING PROSECUTIONS BECAUSE HE'S A
MEMBER OF THE GROUP THE OATH KEEPERS. SO HE'S PART OF THE FACTION THAT
WAS THERE THAT DAY THAT WAS VERY ORGANIZED AND SEEMINGLY HAD SOME
PRETTY INTENSIVE INTENTIONS, IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO
DO THAT DAY. YOU KNOW, HE'S SOMEONE WHO HAS
DEEPLY HELD BELIEFS. THERE'S NO INDICATION IN HIS
LEGAL FILINGS THAT HE'S BACKING DOWN FROM THOSE THUS FAR. HE'S ALSO SOMEONE WHO SAID, "I
STUDIED THE SHAPE OF YOUR HEAD BEFORE I GAVE AN INTERVIEW TO
YOU, AND I'M GOING TO EAT A FAMILY MEMBER OF YOUR'S FACE." SO THERE'S A WHOLE SPECTRUM OF
DIFFERENT TYPES OF INDIVIDUALS, AND VERY CHARMING INDIVIDUAL. HE'S OUT ON HOME RELEASE, BY THE
WAY. SO THAT'S-- THAT'S LOVELY. >> Stephen: DID HE HAVE-- DID
HE HAVE ANY OPINION ABOUT THE SHAPE OF YOUR SKULL? >> YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T PRESS AS
TO WHETHER HIS CONCLUSION WAS MY SKULL WAS SO MISSHAPEN THAT HE
FELT LIKE HE COULD REALLY HAVE A CONVERSATION ON THE LEVEL WITH
ME, OR WHETHER HE FELT LIKE IT WAS A GREAT SKULL. I DIDN'T REALLY GO THERE. BUT IT'S NOT ALWAYS A TOTALLY
RATIONAL SET OF BELIEFS ROOTED IN FACTS, LET'S SAY. AND THEN, YOU KNOW, I THINK
THERE ARE-- THERE ARE SUBTLER FACTIONS THAT WERE REPRESENTED
THAT DAY. AND THAT, IN SOME WAYS, STEPHEN
IS GOING TO BE A HARDER THING TO ADDRESS AND ROOT OUT. >> Stephen: WHAT DO YOU MEAN
"A SUBTLER FACTION, ." >> I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO
DON'T BELIEVE IN PHRENOLOGY, AND SUBTLER IN THEIR RENDERING OF
MISINFORMATION. THEY SAY, "WHO CAN SAY THERE
WASN'T SOME ANTIFA OR LEFT-WING AGITATION IN THE CROWD?"
THAT'S A SIGNIFICANT PART OF IT, EVEN THOUGH, AGAIN, THERE'S NO
INDICATION THAT WAS THE CASE. THERE WERE ACTORS WHO WERE
INVOLVED THAT DAY WHO WERE ABLE TO SUGAR COAT THIS FOR A BROADER
AUDIENCE. WHAT ACADEMIC RESEARCHERS ON
EXTREMISM HAVE TOLD ME AGAIN AND AGAIN, DURING ADMINISTRATIONS
THAT ARE LIBERAL, ANTILIBERAL, ANTIGOVERNMENT GROUPS OF THE
TYPE WE SAW ON JANUARY 6 AT THE CAPITOL, ACTUALLY HAVE A
GROUNDSWELL OF SUPPORT AND ACTIVITY THAT WE'VE SEEN A LOT
HISTORICALLY. >> Stephen: SO DURING THE
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THAT WAS NOT THE GROUNDSWELL, IS WHAT
YOU'RE IMPLYING. >> I THINK IT'S BOTH. I THINK THAT THERE ARE EXTREMIST
GROUPS THAT WERE OPERATING UNDER THE SURFACE IN THIS COUNTRY ASK
NOT GETTING ENOUGH NOTICE WITHIN THE MAINSTREAM PRESS, BY THE
WAY, THAT FOUND PURCHASE AND LEGITIMACY BECAUSE OF THINGS
TRUMP WAS SAYING. AND THEN, ALSO, UNFORTUNATELY,
THOSE GROUPS ARE GOING TO HAVE SOMETHING TO REBEL AGAINST RIGHT
NOW. >> Stephen: DO YOU THINK THAT
THE ABILITY FOR A NEW LIE ON TOP OF THE BIG LIE-- THE IDEA THAT
THE ATTACK WAS ACUATED OR MOTIVATED BY PEOPLE FROM ANTIFA
OR B.L.M., OR ANARCHISTS ON THE LEFT, DO YOU THINK THINGS LIKE
THAT WOULD EXIST WITHOUT FOX NEWS EXISTING? >> FOX NEWS IS A HUGE ECHO
CHAMBER. I TALKED TO SO MANY INDIVIDUALS
AND FRIENDS AND FAMILY OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE THERE ON
THE HILL THAT DAY, WHO SAID THIS IS SOMEONE WHO WENT DOWN A
RABBIT HOLE OF EITHER CONSTANTLY LISTENING TO AND WATCHING FOX
NEWS OR CONSERVATIVE RADIO, YOU KNOW, RUSH LIMBAUGH AND HIS ILK. OR, YOU KNOW, THE MOST EXTREME
WING OF MISINFORMATION IN THIS COUNTRY, ALEX JONES AND SO
FORTH. THERE IS A THRIVING MARKET FOR
MISINFORMATION. AND IT SHARES A LOT OF ELEMENTS
WITH, YOU KNOW, CULT PSYCHOLOGY. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING
RADICALIZED, MUCH IN THE SAME WAY WE SAW WITH ISIS RECRUITS
AND IT'S HAPPENING RIGHT UNDER OUR NOSES IN A REALLY ONGOING
WAY. >> Stephen: SPEAKING OF UNDER
OUR NOSES, A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DEPLATFORMED. CERTAIN THE RING LEADER, THE
FORMER PRESIDENT, HAS BEEN DEPLATFORMED. HAVE YOU DIPPED YOUR TOE INTO
PARLER OR THE OTHER PLATFORMS THAT HAVE BECOME THE REFUGE OF
THESE PEOPLE. >> THAT WAS INFORMED BY DATA
DUMPS FROM PARLER. I HAVE A STRANGE NEW SETTLE OF
YAPS ON MY PHONES THAT ARE CONSTANTLY PINGING WITH
CONSERVATIVE VOICES THAT HAVE IN SOME CASES BEEN EITHER
DEPLATFORMED OR LIMITED IN SOME WAY ON OTHER PLATFORMS AND
FIRING OFF MISSIVES ON TELEGRAM OR CLUBHOUSE IS A NEW ONE. ALI ALEXANDER, WHO IS ALLEGED TO
HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE MASTER MINDS OF THE "STOP THE STEAL"
RALLY AND THE ENSUING RIOT ON THE HILL IS SOMEONE WHO HAS, YOU
KNOW, STARTED DELIVERING ESSENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, TED TALKS
ON CLUBHOUSE. SO THAT'S ANOTHER NEW FUN PLACE
THAT I HAVE TO BE. I THINK I SHOULD GET HAZARD PAY
FOR CLUBHOUSE. >> Stephen: YOU STAY SAFE, AND
DON'T SPEND TOO MUCH TIME ON SOCIAL MEDIA. YOU CAN READ ROMAN'S LATER
REPORTING IN "THE GNAW YORKER" AND ON ITS WEBSITE,
newyorker.com. RONAN FARROW EVERYBODY! WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH GRAMMY
AWARD WINNER BRANDI CARLILE.
So I know this is super shallow...but am I the only one dying for Ronan’s skincare routine? I know that a ring light and stuff is involved, but it’s still all I could think about.
Love Ronan's insight.. He's always succinct & comforting in his explanations. Also, he looks like a smoke show in this zoom! He's def Sinatra's son.
I’d heard really positive things about Clubhouse, but didn’t know it was starting to become a hub for far right speakers. Ronan made an interesting point about it becoming another echo chamber for people to spout their conspiracies. We can’t have any nice things.
I really respect Ronan and his work, but I feel like there are other journalists who have specialized in this topic for a lot longer and are more knowledgable about it.