The Original TINDER SWINDLER - He Scammed Them For MILLIONS!

we've all heard of the Tinder swindler but William Alan Jordan is far worse this man had dozens of wives and fiance all at the same time lying to them while he father dozens of children with them conning them out of millions he committed so many crimes against these women including molesting one of their children and today one of his victims shares her story on the true Jordy podcast I thought I was getting to know him he was researching me he sent a dozen roses to my work treated me like an abser princess proposed to me within 2 weeks of meeting him and he sat down and he said right I've been given permission to tell you I work for the official Department Of Central Intelligence more commonly known as the CIA he ran across somebody who he had previously turned as an asset the people that kind of flew their planes in the Twin Towers and now knew where his wife and his kids lived they were either going to kidnap the kids and rip bits of them and send them through the post to us or we had to come up with money I sold my flat I sold my life insurance I sold my car I sold my piano I sold everything it was £98,000 it also turned out he' taken credit cards out of my name so so I was actually left with £56,000 worth of debt and then I got a phone call from him saying that he'd been arrested cuz one of his fiances he'd used her credit card to pay for the car to get repaired without her permission so she'd set up a police sting and then he was also charged with not registering his address under the Sex Offenders Act cuz he also turns out to be a convicted pedophile whoa and now a word from our sponsors if you're looking for the perfect gift to give yourself this Christmas or one of your friends then you've got to go to manscape and use the code true at checkout for 20% off in free shipping you know why because they've just released the performance package 5.0 Ultra which is the perfect stopping filler give the gift of good hygiene starting with the lone Mo 5.0 known as the 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naturally kind of compare it to the closest story we've heard of something similar would be the Tinder swindler maybe like you know you have a man in your life romantically involved who is a complete and utter con man uh but this for me is potentially well worse because multiple children were created by this man under false pretenses Millions had been taken from many women so let's go back to the start when when you met this man what was your life like just before he entered it so we can kind of get a picture of that okay so as a single mom I had a a 9-month-old baby um so that the relationship with her dad hadn't worked out um so I was on my own I was professional I was busy I was a professional Busy Body I would literally go into people's companies and tell them how to run them better I had my own car I had my own flat uh own my own place you know Etc my daughter was going to nursery and I was going to work full-time everything was brilliant everything was fine I was I was very settled I was very financially secure um the only thing was that I didn't have a romantic partner and my friends all said you know why didn't you try this new internet dating thing this is in the year 2000 just come out people were going oh yes I've met somebody on interet and what could possibly go wrong from memory it it you weren't really into that whole thing and you sort of left but you left your profile on there but I mean no I didn't leave it up I I cancelled the count but they left it up so I didn't I wasn't even aware it was there um and then I got this this message from this guy that was just um you know said his name was Will Jordan that he was um mixed race that he was American that he had a bad B of months as a child so he couldn't have kids so as a result he spent his life chasing his career around the globe and you know that he was very very into his work but you know he just you know he he'd never really had space in his life for romance you know so he'd had a few relationships but you know Etc and just just very very chatty message and I just sort of messaged back and we got talking and yeah just as a professional woman yourself who has a child he he's saying oh well I can't have kids so you're like oh well I do have a child and a lot of the time for single mothers it is hard meeting meeting men because men very Territorial and that's not the ideal scenario for them so this kind of was a pretty good situation it is I mean it's ideal really actually when you when your your priority is a single mom is your child you know so you want to have somebody who's going to it's not you when you're single you're looking for the bad boys and not everybody this was my my experience I should say but you're looking for the you know the thrill the the you know the fun seeker and everything else when you become a mom you're looking for Mr reliable you're looking for somebody who's going to make you know that that's going to give your child a good example of who they should date someone competent got their [ __ ] together yeah basically I mean it's it's like just very different when you when you just your whole life changes when you have a kid you know um so yeah I mean he and he was ticking all those boxes you know he wasn't he wasn't Mr exciting you know he was he was just Joe average but he was he was just solid that's what for me when looking into your story hit me more is like you know you look at the Tinder swindler when watching that back like a lot of people are like how did they not say something something was up whereas this guy was far more ordinary and therefore far more dangerous in my opinion far more easier to go under the radar I mean had he been super super good-look or super Suave or anything else no he wouldn't it wouldn't have worked cuz you would have just gone and go hang on it's not right you know but so you get you guys start um getting on and how long before it went from hey we've just started dating to oh this is quite seriousness we met in about 2 weeks um and then but I mean immediately after we met you know he was talking you know that that he was he was smitten um that he was really surprised by the strength of his feelings things like that so it was it was all going a little bit faster than I was comfortable with not not uncomfortable with but just pulling me that little bit off balance um and then is this what they call like love bombing yeah this is love bombing I mean he sent he sent a dozen roses to my work um that's trying hard yeah yeah and it's like and I hadn't told anyone at work I was dating any anyone so there was kind of like that kind of what what's going on here you know cuz he's letting every man in that office know yeah oh she's m now was there any other things he did other than the Dozen Roses was there other things he said very quickly I mean he he used to open doors he used to walk on the roadside he was quite oldfashioned in his manners very kind of Southern American kind of manners um you know so very s treated me like an absolute princess you know so you you just felt you felt like you were being put on this pedestal uh and sort of like you know slightly worshiped um but not not in a kind of not in a creepy way yeah um and it's very subtle and it's very yeah it's it is kind of hard to explain but just I mean I don't want to don't know want to jump ahead at all but you know having had the the conversations with the other women I know that each one of us had a different experience he wasn't just doing a kind of one-size fit it's all things wow it was like he was being the perfect man for each of us wow so there was some of those he was making a bespoke program he was he was thinking like psychologically analyzing you going what does she need and I am going to be that guy just to you the spoke yes damn so in in my case I I I will not have because because my uh my eldest daughter's dad I will not have a man yell at me all right because it's that's that's a deal breaker to me because i' been there done that not happening again right so that and he was he never raised his voice never never sort of you know if we we would have arguments we would have deep conversations but they wouldn't be argu they wouldn't be shouting right there must have been a lot of conversation in where he asked so many questions about you to start off with well that that was the the initial stage the two the two weeks we were talking online I thought I was getting to know him he was researching me so it's like whilst whilst I was talking to him and we were talking about the books we'd read and I said oh I'd read this one and he go that's that's the and he was obviously going off and reading that book or you know researching it or whatever um and so he was getting all my philosophy all my you know my my politics My Philosophy my ideas my you know Etc so he he literally was going okay that that element this element you know and putting putting together this chameleon package absolutely that was the ideal man for me this is why it's so important to for for women out there to not give your cards away early on when you meet a guy because you know if a man is let's just take it FR out of this if a man just want to sleep with a woman yeah he's do like a lot of men do this same game but just to get to that point yes um and you're never actually going to find the right person for you by telling them what to be so I think as as women there's a smart move to go don't tell him you ask the questions don't let him figure you out because once we figure a woman out men well we know what we want don't we not to psychopath men oh not at all trust me if there's anyone who's aware of that you're looking at them damn so it's I mean that the by the way the theory is that only one in four Psychopaths a female but actually I think it's 50/50 absolutely think it's I think women are much better at hiding it dude that's that is so true because I think men are prone and we are going to go off topics for sure men are prone to being violent when they're when they're trying to take someone down and it's often lashing out not well thought out women are so much more calculated than men because they have to be they're not big and strong so they use what they've got and they're actually better at it than men are um so absolutely I agree with you but and I respect you for having the ability to say that when you've had something so bad uh done to you by a man because it is hard um when you've been hurt so much to the thing is I mean I've done 17 years of research in psychopathy and it's like I don't see myself as having been hurt by a man I see see myself as having been hurt by a psychopath very you know and that's that's you know cuz otherwise you just tar up all men with the same brush and I have a son I don't want that happen um you know sort of like and I know I know not all men are are psychopaths it's not it's nonsense to think so going back to your story with this guy um so it's it's he's playing the perfect game yes right now and um at what point did you feel like the feelings were completely reciprocated and you were like yeah this is this is for me this I know I romcoms you know it's like all what we're talking about the love bombing and everything else is that these romcoms set us up to believe and I grew up think I was a romantic grew up believing that one day you'd meet the one you know you would just be in love and you know sort of no matter what happened you would stick it you know you know um and so that that's what I was presented with was this person who was going to look after me look after my child um that absolutely adored me that that got on well with my child you just just just that kind of whole package deal was the fire there as well between you did you feel that there was that fire chemistry yeah that very much so um and just yeah just it was it was literally like something out of a wrong comp uh deliberately I mean literally deliberately designed to be exactly that a lot of women could fall victim to something like this it's just how far it goes and how deep it went and obviously you were really committed so at what point was marriage and things like that presented he posed to me within two weeks of meeting him wow so uh he stood me up the night before so we were supposed to be going down to London to see uh from Iden to go to London to see The Phantom of the Opera no it wasn't actually sorry I beg your pardon we were going down for a party right and I was going to meet all his work colleagues so I was very excited to sort of me meet his work colleagues and uh he said he was on his way he's on his way he's on his way and then you know s like oh we'll get the later flight and you know etc etc and my daughter was at my mom's so that we could we could have this trip away uh and uh this was on like the 23rd of December or something so you're meeting him yeah I was I was waiting at the flat for him to turn up uh and go away for this for this um um trip away and uh and he didn't turn up so I ended up drinking a bottle of wine going to bed and S you know thinking I'll go get my no phone call no nothing well no it just it just he had said I'm delayed and delayed and delayed and then just nothing right and I just I just I'm not putting up with that kind Behavior you know um so in the morning I was like that we're done you know it's not happening I've only been seeing this guy two weeks you know Etc um and 7:00 in the morning he turns up and uh and with a with a white teddy bear and um and I was standing with my arms crossed and my legs crossed leaning against the the cooker actually sort of in the process of dumping him and just saying this is not acceptable no you know and he was like I I'm Ser sorry I was in a um a basement server area it guy um so I was in basement server area and I couldn't get away and you know like there was no signal and the know whole system crashed and you know sort of plants were having real problems and all these kind of things going I bet you elaborated like you you laid it on well thick oh yeah all more details at you as well but everything was very specific cuz that's the the more believable it becomes then cuz he's painting that picture yeah and I was just and the whole thing as well was oh you know because I've because I spent so long in my life working and not being in relation ship I'm I'm used to work coming first you know I have to get used to to switching that around um and I was still going no no no you know this is it's not on this not right behavior um and then he said well I'm really upset too because I was planning to do something and I was like do what and he handed me the teddy bear and around its neck was a diamond ring and I was just like what you know it wasn't like I sat there going oh I lovely Let's Get Married yeah I was I was just like it just it it I mean it's it was a seismic shift in the conversation because he just proposed to me and I I suddenly I'm in the middle of dumping him and suddenly I'm I'm now going I mean it was an obvious no but at the same time it it it transcended that from being the relationship is over to well I'm hurting your feelings by saying no to you marrying you so you know obviously when you somebody stands you up it it it's because you assume it's because they don't care they're not interested they they're they're being he's contradicting everything you felt in that moment he's he's showing you I do care yeah and it's so actions you know and and a proposal of marriage when he's just stood you up it's just it just it's so incon your brain can't can't make that connection and you know so I obviously said no and but you know s like said only know each other two weeks and you know but he was back in the game was he he was back in the game yeah yeah a woman being proposed to is a def moment in her life and like clearly now we can unpack this and look back at it and go he was scrambling and he thought all right she's going to be pissed I've got the answer for this but it's a huge thing and it is powerful and it would have had an impact on you in that moment to to forgive him at least I suppose yeah but it was 7:00 in the morning he already had the ring so he hadn't that morning gone out and G all right I'll sidetracker he had the ring the day before uhhuh so the whole thing was actually planned I wonder to what degree cuz this guy seems like the type you'd have like 10 rings in a in a you know what I mean yeah very possibly like this guy is you just don't know how far the lengths are and the ring was the right size by the way wow see he just kind of go you know so like has he done it so often um you know yeah he just has to glance at the woman's finger and go she's yeah it's like this is a joke man okay so at that point he's back in the game and where do we go from there then so we we carried on dating um probably about 3 months ago past um he has this thing of standing me up and you know sort of like not turning up to things and I mean things like going out to my my brothers for dinner um and you know my brother's finally going to get to meet him and then suddenly it's last minute he's been called away for work and I have to go it's humiliating to turn up and something he hasn't you know and it's like to the point that some of my friends and family started calling him in my imaginary boyfriend oh yeah that hurts you know that was just like you know so it's like things like when he did send you know the the the flowers to work and stuff like that you know I was wondering whether people was thinking I'm I'm send myself it was just it was just and that that's gaslighting love bombing gaslighting that's how it works you know because the gas lighting on its own doesn't work because it just it just it's just constant praise and everything else what you have to do is you you belittle the person you make them feel like they're going mad you know because that that that a disconnect with what they're saying and what they're doing you know not standing you up but then asking you to marry them standing them up and then you know sort of like just just yeah it's it's it's weird but yeah so that that that was going on for about three months I've seen women talk openly online about how addicted they get to this sort of behavior and I'm and and not when there's even an end game just just by toxic men who throw the hot and cold game at them and cuz this is why women like a lot of them find average Jo's normal guys who are just decent blocks boring because when they've had head cases before who you just don't know what the [ __ ] coming next it's exciting it is and unfortunately women like there's a reason why women like watching soap operas they you know it's [ __ ] interesting right and when their own life becomes one there's a period where they're like [ __ ] me this is exciting yeah and it must have been oh yeah I mean it was but I mean it's at that that stage it was was it was just kind of it was getting irritating right the they standing me up and you know that that was starting to wear very very thin um and i i s of I kind of went right I need to know what's going on here and I I did a bit of digging around and the thing was in in 2001 you didn't have Google you didn't have the kind of resources you have now um uh so what I did is I actually looked up company house cuz I knew he run a company uh and a company's house it had had this woman's name and an address in gullen um as a company secretary for his company and it was it was an address he had not mentioned to me um so I thought okay I'll G is like 45 minutes drive from Edinburgh I'll go and have a look how many months in was this roughly about four months into relationship about 3 months after he proposed her um and uh yeah and it sort of like so I drove to this house and he was away in Manchester at the time he just it had been announced in the time he' just been recruited as the the head of it for this company in Manchester um so that was legit oh yeah that was legit yeah so he's doing pretty well there's a whole other story about that by the way okay okay we'll get into that but um yeah so he he yeah he was doing quite well um so and the company what he said he did for a living at the time was that he would hack into people's it systems to see whether or not they were hackable so people would pay him to try and see whether or not they could you know so he could hack into their system you know so it was kind of like um um forensic it guy so I went to gullen and you know had looked up this house and here is this huge house on the corner of a really beautiful and gullen is a pretty rich town um you know there all golf clubs and you know stuff like that um and um and here was this enormous house with you know his car in the driveway and children's equipment at the Garden and you know so like on the roof was all these antenna and stuff like that um and and I was sort of going he's bloody married you know excuse the language you know he's he's he's married and he's got kids and but how could that be possible because he's he can't have kids he's infertile you know um and this was this was a bug bear in his life this was baggage that he took with him it was the fact that he'd always wanted to have kids you know that he' know be and he but he'd known since he was 18 that he couldn't um and know but this Etc is why made it perfect that I already had a child you know all this I mean it' been it not been nagged but it had been talked about we didn't talked about adopting that's that sort of thing so the fact that he might have kids was just totally alien at this stage anyway I went home and I I I I I could have knocked on the door but I didn't right I I went home and I texted him I just said we have to talk this is not good news right um and so he he came back from Manchester and and came to the house and and we sat down we and he said look I've got something to tell you uh and uh you know please don't ask any questions until I finished and I said okay and then he left the room right and I'm sitting on the couch going what and it's like and as far as I'm concerned you know he's married with kids he's been lying to me all this time and but he he left the room and he he paced up and down in the the hallway outside the sitting room door talking to someone on the phone for about 45 minutes and I'm I'm sitting there going what what answer could there be to this that is going to come out good you know um and he came back in and he sat down and he said right I've been given permission to tell you um so I work for the official Department Of Central Intelligence more commonly known as the CIA I was a recruited from University uh I'm not a spy I'm an IT person I work in a like the guy in the van you know he's the the one that does the support stuff that he's a specialist in certain areas um that he's on condent to the m mod from the CIA that's why he's working in Britain um and and he talked about for about 2 hours telling me all the details of this thing whilst he's talking my phone is updating with oci relay you know one of those old blue Nokia phones and it used to just have telephone numbers you didn't get names on it at the time and it was saying mod relay on it I didn't even know it could do that at the time right and and oci relay um and Sim update and it was just doing beep beep all the time and I'm kind of keep looking at my phone going what is what is going on here it's just like it was just the most bizarre conversation um and then he shows me the the OD c.net website and you know shows me behind you know the logins for the the CIA you know you all the the logos and everything on it um you know and he said but the the the main thing he said was you don't have to believe anything I'm going to say it's all going to be proved in time so just just hold off because you'll meet people you'll see things you'll hear things you know things will be proved you don't have to believe anything right now in regards to the house and the the the kids toys outside and stuff so that was a safe house okay so it was it was a it was it was a team place and the best way to disgu it disguise it was to have children's toys I had actually when I was in the street I'd asked somebody who owned it and they said oh they don't know everyone keeps themselves to themselves around here and he said did you not notice the antenna on the roof and I said yeah he said that's all communication stuff um you know Etc so it's like you know and I'm going going okay well he's most likely still his Mar with children you know but I will hold off and see if this evidence comes so it wasn't like I went oh okay I believe you you know it was it was the suspension of disbelief as opposed to me buying into it I think that the thing that we've glossed over in this conversation because we can't reenact it we can't sit and listen to them but to for someone to sit there and like log into websites in front of you and spend 2 hours explaining everything like you know when you've invested this reement to this guy and you're in love with him and you want to believe him and that's the key here is the love bombing makes you want to believe him that's this the secret ingredient all of this right the fire you know the passion that you have at this point the memories and the and and the dreams that you want to have together you want to believe him and he's actually coming up with some pretty um you know as as there's a lot of men watching this right now that would sit there go I wish my lies probably taking notes wish when I got caught I'd have thought of this level of [ __ ] but the the point is is he's obviously a very clever man in regards to technical stuff and was able to H it on to you and give you as much and again as much detail so that it's as believable as humanly possible so are you still like sleeping with him and doing the usual stuff yeah I mean it was the usual stuff yeah yeah I was I was still sleeping with him still things were things were sort of everything else was fine it was just this standing me up thing um and you know for I mean I can't I can't remember what happened the days after that but it was very much kind of like okay well I'm waiting to see where where this evidence is coming and the next time that he couldn't come to something I got a phone call so when instead of standing me up I got a phone call from from a woman who said just let you know uh well Jordan's unable to come um he said you would understand so just he'll be in touch as soon as you can so and and he said you know people will be able to call you now because you're now in the loop um so people will be able to cuz you're my fiance and you know Etc people will be able to actually include you um so won't be able to tell you where I am but they'll be able to say you know so you won't be left in the Larch so this you know this woman called me and I was like oh okay can I ask any questions no but you know just you know to be in touch uh and then he got back in touch and so suddenly I wasn't being just dumped I was I was actually being included and then he he started getting sort of money packet when he was paid in cash for things he would actually have money packets which had mod stamped on them um you know all sorts of other things happened but it was the it was the people verifying oh hearing a voice on the end of the phone is is Rock Solid to someone you're like all right I'm getting a fungle from what sounds like a really professional woman here yeah um and you know it just begs the question who the hell was that do you know I I I thought a long time about that afterwards and you imagine the scenario as he goes up to somebody in the street and says I want to go and get my wife a birthday but I'm supposed to be home could you possibly phone her and just say that I've been delayed yeah it could been anyone in the street or you pay someone or he wouldn't have to he wouldn't have to he would just you know in a cafe or anything else he'd be able to turn around and someone and say listen I just want to do something as a surprise to my wife could you possibly ring her and say or I'm been called away my batter's died could you phone her um you know Etc it really it's it's actually that simple there was one time that I was in a um a theater and I was sitting there and he was he he was late coming he said I'll see you at the theater I'll I'll be there just leave the ticket for me on the door uh and then you know sort of like I'm s sitting there waiting for him to come through the door and somebody came up and tapped me on the shoulder and said um just want to let you know that he's not coming you know so just uh he asked me to let you know and you know and I was just like oh my God I'm actually meeting someone in person this time you know and uh and I was kind of Blown Away by that and but looking back it's probably the theater manager he probably found and said could you go and tell my wife cuz it's all smoking mirrors it's all you know it feels very official because he's painted such an elaborate story so because he's because he's paintting that backstory then all these things happening you know these people contacting you don't think you know oh that's some random stranger that he's asked to do that you know it it's all fitting in with the narrative that he's painted um and it's like the the the thing I think that's the main key about this as well is there was no end game visible it wasn't like he was asking me for money it wasn't like he was you know some uh drug dealer or something you know he was clearly a you know sort of like he's a bit of a nerd you know it just it there wasn't it doesn't make any sense what's he gaining from this you know that that having a relationship with me is it doesn't seem like a a good con man's end game does that make sense yeah because it's a long con yeah obviously you know um men have been n to use women for certain things sex mainly but like to go to these lengths for for what like and I we'll get onto that I suppose but um you know so so so you're still skeptical but nothing's being verified and sort of uh what's the next turn in the story for you in terms of I mean there's more is there more commitment coming well yeah I got pregnant there you go then that will happen that was a surprise well it it will happen if but it won't if your husband's infertile well so that was the biggest the biggest red flag I guess immediately where you thought this isn't right I know this isn't right you know by that by that stage I was so ingrained in his story I was so hooked into it that actually I sat down when I found out I was pregnant I was absolutely stunned um I genuinely looked through my diary to see whether or not I had been to any parties or been anywhere where somebody might have been able to have refid me because I was so convinced that he couldn't possibly father a child genuinely I don't know I mean it's it's so hard to explain that I I when I contacted him to tell him I was utterly convinced he was going to leave me because he thought he would have thought I'd had an affair even though I knew I hadn't and I was just like I was so relieved that when I actually told him he just he just oh my God you know was that in person yeah so I told him and he he actually all the blood drain from his face he was like he he turned you know he sort of leaned backwards and he he went against the war he said you know I've been told that you know it sounds over dramatic it wasn't quite like that but um you know he said I've been told it was like one in a million chance that it could happen you know and you know you're just amazing you know you've managed to conceive a child for me you've done the one thing that nobody else could do etc etc you know and you felt fantastic I I felt amazed because I I mean I did feel fantastic that he didn't think I'd had an affair I was I was really proud of him that he had that much trust in me um just like you look back at it now and just go oh but um yeah I mean his his wife and his Nanny were both pregnant when he wrote to me saying that that that he was in fer time wow you know and it's like this man even did the nanny oh twice no way two children with the nanny Jesus okay okay so so how how long You' been with him by the time you got pregnant uh that was about 6 months okay um obviously you're not you're not thinking that I need to be protecting myself yeah because the guy told me he's he's Jaffer he seedless never I've never heard anyone say that it's a it's a it's a Newcastle saying that so you're you're the Wonder Woman who's managed to give him give him a child finally and that's I guess a time for celebration a time to for you guys to feel like okay this is something really special we're getting closer more invested it's more real his his parents rang me to say how pleased they were to have their first grandchild you know that you know they were really they were just over the moon um but he already had a a child did they know about the other children or no yeah they spent Christmas with the other wife and the five kids so um yeah oh wow okay okay so I think what we'll do is we'll we'll go back to the other people that you find out about later for now we'll stick on your journey because um there's a baby on the way you've already got one child you're now having another one yes um so we were we were supposed to get married so um and we were supposed to be getting married uh I think it's like July August or something like that um and I was kind of like cuz I I was still slightly oldfashioned going you know if we're going to have a baby I want to want to of course tither not you know it's up to that um and uh so we'd sort of set everything out send out the invitations everything was sort wedding bread dress was bought and Etc um and then taken out because I was starting to expand um and uh so it's like that the and and then sort of like two or 3 weeks before the the wedding he said I'm being called away um and he he said I'm I'm going to be a while you know so so we have to put it on pause so I had to write out to everybody and just say wedding's postponed and Etc and again it was utterly humiliating um but because everyone of course thought he jilted me um and I was going no I couldn't explain to them what was going on because I was you know sworn to secrecy and and I couldn't talk to anyone about what was happening so I just had to say no no it's all okay just he's he's got work so we've just got to do it another time um so throughout that kind of next nine months basically uh I expanded he came back in December for a weekend um and the whole time he was away he was contacting me it was he was in the Janine area of the Palestinian territories um which at the time you know he was he was telling me about what was going on there I was we were talking on satellite phone um the basically the um the the city was surrounded and the Israeli Army were actually bulldozing the houses um with people inside so um was this is what he was telling me so um I'm I'm not sure how much of it fact or but um you were obviously really worried though I was watching it all on the news I was watching it expecting to see my partner there um and you know he he was stuck in basically a situation he couldn't get out of he was dropped in there and he couldn't get out so you know he was there for for months on end so I gave birth um um and he was still saying I'm I'm should be with I'll be I'll be there I'll be there I'll be there um but he just never turned up and when he did finally arrive home um his daughter was now so two months old um and uh he he arrived home and his his feet were in a horrendous State they were all cracked and black and blue and stuff um and uh basically said he he hadn't been able to take his socks and shoes off for for 3 months um and when he came back he actually had to have a socks pretty much surgically removed because he just he hadn't been able to take them off so I mean and I and he was really thin and he was really kind of gray looking he's like a method doctor this guy isn't he yeah he really takes this [ __ ] like to the next level oh yeah oh yeah totally so he'd been like doing all of this to himself knowing when I get to see her this story needs to line up so I need physical issues G wrong with me to Make Her Say oh he's not in a good way it's been hard for this whereas in reality I'm assuming he's with this other family just on a diet and I'm wearing boots two sizes too small for him for 3 weeks yeah so and how many months in total had he been away by the time you'd seen him again so he was away about nine months so cuz I was about two or three months pregnant when he left and and and I saw him once when I was about six months pregnant for a weekend and then he came back when she was about 2 months old that must have been really hard for you going through a whole pregnancy like let's put that to one side what what you're being lied to just even doing that being a woman who's pregnant on her own with a 2-year-old daughter dude I like that is hard to it's not easy but it was like dating Superman it was like complaining about Superman not coming back for dinner because he's off saving the world you felt so selfish complaining about it not no not every woman's like this you see so like there's a lot of good men out there who need time to go to work most of my mates are offshore uhhuh and they still get [ __ ] off their woman all the time right so like you were very much putting him first yeah constantly there to think that but it wasn't I mean it's not just him though because it's like what he was telling me he was doing was something that's that's helping helping people yes does that make sense so it's like and you're seeing it on the news so it's real yeah and I'm seeing seeing dead children in the street I'm seeing people being you know people's lives and homes being literally torn out and and I'm sitting there going well I'm sitting here pregnant and alone mhm you know it's it's like how can I complain about that you know when there are people dying it just it that didn't it just felt wrong it just felt so selfish so I you just swallow it you just don't you don't go and I'm not going to do you think it was to do with the pregnancy that you didn't want to have to deal with that or I don't know actually cuz I it's it's very possible there were just other things going on for him at the time yeah you know he was just he was just s of kind of I mean I I think in in terms of as a psychopath uh he wants to control people he wants to and actually having the girlfriends pregnant and sleep deprived or having already had his child you more attached to him so now this is the father of your child you've got to then interact with them regardless even if you if even if you're not in a relationship with them anymore you still have to interact with them and therefore you are still in part under their control he's got you he's got you once he's got you pregnant I've completed the game then I've got I've literally implanted my Ed in you so therefore you belong to me on some level yeah like not even belong it's just a play thing the to a psychopath that that it's not it's not like attachment yeah so there there are some I I know where you're coming from because there are some guys who kind of feel like territorial yes but it's not like that it's not with a with a psychopath it's not that that'd be more narcissistic right but with a psychopath it's more like a Sims game wow right so it's more like I'm making this character do this and I'm making making this character do that you know and if if that character dies it's like oh okay all right well go on to this one you know it's it's like it doesn't matter at all so it's not like a possession or anything it's not you you it's more like an ant farm that's such a great description because for for normal people uh I I would never think about using someone in such a way like that as as entertainment so to speak um so yeah that is is mind-blowing and when he comes back into your life uh like you said in a situation where you sleep deprived you've had to do all of this on your own raising a child having a child now he's finally there did you feel like you became a unit again well yeah we did I mean when he first came back well came back came back from Oxford but came back from Janine he he wanted out of the CIA so he now wanted to be a civilian and not be part of this so um we then went through the whole process of trying to get him work and he got work in a big IT company he was earning a lot of of money he was learning about £10,000 a month um which is a lot of money to me it's a lot money especially back then remember yeah so it's like and and he was he was you know suddenly now we had the high life we had you know we were able to uh although I own Mo flat was a two-bedroom flat so we ended up renting a house so that we could have the rooms that's when disaster struck so disaster struck in the form of when he was working for the big software company because he was no longer protected um the in intelligence Services he ran across somebody this is the story told me he ran across somebody who he had previously um researched and uh turned as an asset um who was part of kind of a a unsavory group should conspiracy type thing um more like the people that kind of flew the planes in the Twin Towers kind of thing all right um so and because he was no longer protected he was using his real name and his real passport and everything everything else this person now knew who he was and had looked up in his details on the the HR stuff and in this company and now knew where his wife and his kids lived and had said to him that they were going to extract Revenge from him and they were either going to kidnap the kids and rip bits of them and send them through the post to us or we had to come up with money to protect them and you know and he had no protection from anybody because he was no longer cuz he was out you know so I'm trying to um and I'm sure you might be able to help that with this I'm trying to sort of reason okay he's making £10,000 a month here which is great money mhm he now comes to you with the story that well we need money to pay these people off yeah I'm trying to understand where the real need for money was if he's making all this money and what what what is the real purpose behind all there's no real purpose behind it the the thing that drives psychopath is money sex and power it's actually the thing the real driver the real of a psychopath is boredom so nothing nothing engages them so him going to work every day and having the love and support of a wife saying as children which for a normal man would me 10 grand a month every it's the dream actually it's actually the dream that every man wants in my opinion so for him though [ __ ] this yeah I need to stir some [ __ ] up yes yeah that's wild man exactly what it is yeah and it's like and it's also it's also not about the money right what it's about is about how much measure of control he has over another human being because that is the real game yeah you know that the money is just the measure of control you know when when people don't have money you'll use something else um so he wants to judge the how how how much chaos can I inflict on this situation and her still be here and I'm going to measure that in how much money she can find in this scenario yeah just for how much can I what what can I make her do to keep her kids safe what what will she do to keep her kids safe how far will she go and also not just for our kids but for for him yeah yeah he's the one benefiting in this fake scenario so so so how far did you go I've got I've got a great example when we're talking about how psychopath function I'll back to that in a second but the the thing that's still pisses me off right big time and I know why it pisses me off and it's CU because of my reaction to not anything else and it's a really simple thing but it's a really really good example about how Psychopaths function right is that he told me once oh I'm I'm I'm back in Edinburgh and you know can you come and pick me up uh and I had so Robin was about three years old and ay was just a baby in in the you know in the uh car seat um and so I said yeah sure and I I to went drove over to Edinburgh George Street sat on the thing text him and said I'm I'm here come on you know and he all brilliant I'm on my way down and I sat there there singing songs with my daughter luckily a was asleep um but singing songs with my three-year-old daughter and 10 minutes go by and I've texted him again and going where are you you know we're still waiting and he go oh sorry I was caught on the stairs somebody just asked me to do something um you know I I'll not be long all right so another 10 minutes goes by and I'm texting him again saying where are you you know this is getting ridiculous um and he's going oh sorry the person asked me to do something you know it's not going to take me long etc etc this one on for two hours hours wow 2 hours I sat there after 2 hours he stopped texting me back so I sat there for a little while longer and then just went home just drove off right what annoys me about it is a he wasn't in Eden he was in Oxford at the time so he wasn't even there he just wanted to see how long he can make me wait just to see how long and in this case time is the measuring stick not money but yeah so it's like but what annoys me about it is I didn't give up he did he got bored of the game so I actually stayed so long that he kind of went you know done with that and just went off and had tea with his wife or whatever and left me still sitting there still texting him do you know do you know how you're beating yourself up about that in that that's what this is you're angry at yourself cuz you feel like I've been a mug it but like a good man would deserve that you know do you know do you know what like I don't I don't mean because a good man wouldn't put you through that but like when I hear stories of women like this I always think to myself like yeah but you see that love that you had that dedication and devotion when when women like that meet a good man it's a match made in heaven because you're both giving and it's a competition of who can give the most then not taking and giving why didn't I meet someone like that I mean yeah it is hard to meet good people like that's that's true but like unfortunately I think that the great people often end up with the takers yeah like well that's that's that that's actually there's a they target them they see them Psychopaths particularly Target empaths one of the things I was that my book I was researching I was really quite fascinated by is I know there's a spectrum of psychopathy so about 1% of society is Psychopaths full-blown out not Psychopaths up to 15% of the society are on that spect just a scary thought that really makes sense yeah yeah but it's like what I'd never realized before I started writing the book is actually there's another the other end of the spectrum you've got people that are so empathic they can't actually function um and you've got you know up to 15% of people are on that that upper Spectrum I've seen them as well and it's so so I can't watch things like jackass right without feeling physical pain yeah when I watch it because it's like I I empathize so much with people I actually feel that physical pain there's actually there there's two points in your brain can't do this with the headphones on but there's two points in your brain that that's behind your ears and and just on the top of your head that if I snaap my finger and just went crack in front of you your eyes would crinkle you you kind of like winse backwards because it's like two hot needles going into your brain you feel physical pain on somebody else's pain right and the more empathic you are the more physical pain you actually feel so I if I see someone hurting hurting like a kid falling over and scraping their knee my knee hurts you know I S of like and I I I just can't watch those things with people my kids can watch them and laugh their heads off they think it's brilliant and I just kind of I just wince and it's like so Psychopaths don't have that at all so they don't have any kind of response when somebody hurts themselves they don't feel anything they just kind of you know if they see a car crash they'll look at it and go ooh how are people reacting so they can learn from it and this is why often you know you hear with them as kids torturing animals stuff like that things that ordinary people who are just in the middle not great people necessarily but not horrible even they couldn't handle the thought of you know they yeah they and they are just so soulless and emotionless it is bizarre but I actually really like the point you made about the people who are too empathetic almost like uh having met some of them those people who are too nice for their own good too soft um and it's crippling having someone like that with obviously one of these Cycles it's like food you know um and unfortunately it feels like that was a bit like what you became in that scenario um so so yeah um going going back sorry to this point where he's going we need the money what are you going to do what did you do everything everything I could I sold my flat I sold my life insurance I sold my car I sold my piano I sold everything um and it wasn't like it happened overnight it was it was like a a sharks Feeding Frenzy over about 9 months so uh I mean for instance initially it wasn't it was like 10 grand so okay how can I get 10 grand okay well you know I borrowed it off my my mom for that and then um okay so when you say it was like 10 grand do you mean he was putting different numbers at you going right now we need this then we need that yeah yeah and it's so it start it wasn't like they said oh we're going to need like this much money up front it was just like this this is what they're needing and they need more and they need more they need more they need more and it's it's I I went into complete panic mode um you know sort of the fight or flight thing I was in both fight and flight and I was just like the the only thing I could see at the time was my children were in danger um and so I borrowed as much money I could when I when I realized I couldn't borrow anymore I sold my flat paid off those debts then had more money in the bank and thought well at least I've got this money you know Etc um and that went that just went you know bit by bit and then to to him to him all told it was £98,000 um and eventually I couldn't even pay the rent I couldn't feed my kids I all the money he was earning his 10,000 a month that we still earning was going to this debt to going to these people so he wasn't bringing anything in either though he still earning he wasn't bringing anything in and were you still living in the rented uh so I mean my my head at the time my head was sort of thinking well he's earning 10 grand a month so once we get this sorted you know we're going to be back on our feet really quickly you know I was earning as well it wasn't like I was sitting doing nothing you know I was I was working as a consultant at the time as well so I had a fairly okay income as well um so it wasn't like it was just or you know anyway but um so you know in my head it was like if we can just get past this if we can just hold on if we can just stay alive basically until you know until this is done um until they they stop I don't know what I thought was going to stop them but you know I think in my head I knew it was going to be when I had nothing left um yeah but when you when you're operating out of love which is what you were coming from you're coming from a place of love you don't want to quit do you like cuz you got babies to look after so the the the option of quitting when you have children is is not an option is it it doesn't it doesn't even there was no way of quitting you know it wasn't like if I said right well I'm no longer in a relationship with him that we wouldn't be in danger because as far as as far as I was concerned he was he was the one that was keeping us safe he was keeping them away from us all right and it's like if I just said all right you buger off then we're just facing these people on our own if that makes any sense I mean I I was so brainwashed that I just the only person I thought I could trust with him I couldn't tell anyone else what was going on in my life uh to everybody else I had a smile on my face everything was good you know it's was fine everything else not a single other person knew nobody knew and when you're transferring the money is it are you wiring it or is a cash cash I mean a lot well some of it was going into an account that he had that that I was so so some of it was paying into account I mean towards the end it was like £50 here and there you know because it was like what could I scrape together it was no longer like 10,000 here and there it was it was it was £50 can you give me £50 for petrol and I can at least get to this place um you know Etc I mean it was literally squeezing that lemon dry um and I couldn't I mean I hadn't paid the rent in 3 months and you know sort of like the he he constantly said oh I've paid it I don't know why they're asking for it I've paid it I've paid it you know um and I just said to them it's not happening um so you know with um by this time by the way I was pregnant again um and so the whole way through my pregnancy I was living in this absolutely horrendous stress State um I mean he got me a taser so I was uh going around the house every night I would wake up hearing noises in the house you know he'd be away he'd be away working this this this big software company and you know so I'd be on my own in the house with the kids and every night in my head I would see these shadowy figures around every door and I would hear noise and I would get up and I would search the house and and with this taser in my hand you know just utterly terrified of what he had you in a in a manic State almost totally and it was utterly terrifying I mean it was horrendous and at the same time no money so I would be looking down the backs of sofas and stuff like that to see if I could get enough money to get some milk so I could at least me the kids some porch and I I mean sort of not my finest hour but I would actually go around my mom's house or friends houses when I knew they would be cooking their tea for their kids so that they would go oh yeah we want Dr some you know yeah you know just to make sure the kids got a good meal I mean it was honestly it was it was a sharks Feeding Frenzy it was just like it was horrendous just I hate hearing that for you because uh you know the fact that your CH like as a mother the the thing that you're going to be rating yourself on is am I doing a good job for my children first and foremost that's the first thing you're judging your self-esteem on and and you are trying but you're so um as you say brainwashed by this guy and and the question is is where is all this money going in reality like do we have any idea or okay we'll get at that point um so you're you're pregnant again and what point at this in terms of timeline how long have you known him now by the time you're pregnant again and this is happening by this stage uh I was sort of moving out the the house I was years since you met him now roughly so yeah that was that was sort of four four and a half well I met him in 2000 so yeah so four and a half years I'd say um and uh we had um I had to move out the house so I had to pack the house up um put everything in storage and I moved in with my mom and dad and sort of like that that was fun aged you know 39 saying to my mom and dad you know I have nowhere to go will you take me in um can you just re explain that sorry cuz that was a bit confusing for me I couldn't pay the rent so I couldn't pay the rent on the house I had nothing left I had no money I had I had my income I had my my money coming in from my income so but I didn't it wasn't enough to pay the rent on my own um and so I said to my parents you know can can you put us up you know until I find somewhere else and they say why because you've got a fell and he's earning good money by by that stage you know he' actually sat them down and told them what he did for a living and that you know things were a bit fraud at the moment but all going to be sorted so um so they're in on it as well yeah so yeah they were sucked in as well um my brother also who is very very CNY guy um Nobody's Fool um and initially was very distrustful of of will um and uh he got him very very drunk so deliberately so one one night when we were over uh I think I was pregnant at the time so I wasn't drinking but he I think between the two of them they drank about six bottles of wine I mean they were abs stocious um and because because will then had all had now included my family in the in the the story not it not too much detail but just there was more to this and that he worked for intelligence Services um and so my brother got him was quizzing him when drunk and you know he was telling all sorts of CIA secrets about who killed JFK and I mean honestly everything in absolute character all the way through to the point that he actually got alcohol poisoning and he spent the night on the bathroom floor um and I went home to the kids and but he was still sticking to his story so after that my brother believed him as well so in throughout this time were there any periods where he slipped up a bit like cuz cuz although these stories are far-fetched they're consistent yeah so I'm I'm wondering were there any little mistakes that you look back on you went ah you [ __ ] up there and I should have seen it uh yeah I hate the word should but yes um or could should is a shaming word you know um but yeah there were certainly times I could have seen it and um for instance there was one point where he turned around and he said uh we were having a family event and and and he was there and he came up to me and he said um I'm just I'm a bit uncomfortable your sister just made a pass at me right and I just killed myself laughing I just absolutely decked myself and went no she didn't and cuz I know my sister well enough to know that there's no way she would ever do that right and it's that that's the kind of relationship we have and he just kind of went oh oh right I must got it wrong and I now know what he was doing was trying to drive a wedge between me and my family but that's something he never managed to do cuz he wanted you isolated yes so he had to he that's why he had to include my family because he couldn't isolate me from them so he did initially so in the first stages of it it was just me and him but then you know sort of by this stage when I was moving in with my you know back in with my parents he had to start making sure cuz they were getting you know what the heck's going on um as I'd managed to hide everything until then but you know that that stage he he had to actually include them but yeah so I mean that was one stage there was also um he told us that he'd been he'd lived in Japan for a couple of years and that he spoke fluent Japanese now this was before he found out that my sister is married to a Japanese man and and lives in Japan she actually she's an international sculptor uh and uh so she she you know every time she was coming home and and stuff he he would vanish for work and uh and so she'd never met him and she's a very she's a very strong skeptic about anything you know uh so uh she she was really wanting to meet him and was absolutely determined when she did she was going to see if he did speak Japanese you know um so finally I don't know why I think in my head I knew he was avoiding her so I I hadn't told him that she was home uh and we went around for lunch my parents and they were all there and and my sister was there and uh and she asked him something in Japanese we're all sitting around the table you know sort of like ay his his first first daughter uh is sitting in a high chair just opposite him and uh and she she asked him something very simple like what was the weather like in Japan when you were there in Japanese right but it was something he would he wouldn't be able to Bluff his way out of and uh she she we had a conversation about it me and my sister afterwards because she left that day thinking that there wasn't anything wrong right but he never answered the question all right and we realized that was the time that A's high chair fell over oh my God he kicked his own baby daughter's high chair over to avoid answering the question so by the time every all the chaos has stopped and everything else she knows she's asked her question but she never got an answer but she doesn't even think about it because something more dramatic happened yeah opportunistic to the fullest extent no matter what happened he'll do anything right yeah yeah but it's you got to remember he doesn't care about his children any more than he cares about the women they're they're just porns they're just play things they're just Sims was a really good description of that yeah yeah um all right so the second baby is now so yeah so Zach my second second my my boy my son was born I couldn't remember the word for it there uh was born on the 1st of April 2005 and just I mean I moved in my parents just at that time basically so we were living I mean my parents brilliant I mean they had they had a decent sized house so they had two spare rooms so me and my son were in one room and the daughters my two daughters in the other room um and and we lived there for about 3 or 4 months were you still sending him money throughout that period I was Absolut brassic about that stage I had nothing left all right so you were saying we've got nothing just he he did ask for money and he said you know we need we need this we have to have this and this is the reason why and he gave me much more detail about the the dangers and everything else and I I literally just wrote back I still got the email wrote back to him going Bring it on I have nothing I can't do it and he said can you borrow money off your family and I was like no cuz I'd already I'd already kind of like I wasn't going to I I knew I'd lost everything in that stage and I wasn't going to do the same to my family I wasn't you know it's like it was actually that kind of that moment of right you know if they're coming they're coming you know there's no more I can do you know and I'm not going to I was I just I had enough empathy from my my family not to drag them down with me but he wanted that oh yeah wow there's just relentlessness here isn't there there's just nothing there's nothing he won't do and uh and and so so the game is sort of over at this point I'm assuming did he accept that or not no I think well yes or no I mean as in money the money game the money game had ended so that you said he changed to a different game yeah okay so it's like me at that time I was kind of um I I was sort of kind of I think my logical rational brain was kind of going there is no reason now there's no money left there's no reason for them to actually kidnap the kids there's no reason for them to come and hurt me or the kids but so they're probably going to leave us alone now because as long as they know there is nothing you know Etc that the the I just I figured that was it was at least the game that game was over their game the the unsavory game was over um and uh so yeah and he was like okay and and just I'll deal with it and so he kind of disappeared for a while and I didn't know what was going on but I had a baby son to deal with and you know Etc so I was just I just tried to put one foot in front of the other you know that pregnancy was he present for much of that or no yeah he was he was back and forth he was back and forth all the time and he didn't spend like weeks with us he would spend a few days with us and a few days away and then she you know Etc so um it was always very SP ER adic you know when we'd see him um but I mean he said he was like being you know he was basically sort of like jumping all over the place trying to he lost the job with the um the software company um he ended up getting a job at the um Deputy Prime Minister's office uh Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott wow um and he was working there this is true this is true yeah I mean I I went into his offices I I went my security they waved at him you know we went to Saw's office and you know apparently so did a few others but um you know it just so yeah he did actually work as work in the office but it was it was a little bit more evidence that he' got a new contract he was you know as intelligence services but within this office you know uh he wasn't he was just an IT guy but and then I got um uh a phone call from him saying that he'd been arrested um and he he he was driving a Mercedes car which I I was paying for was coming out of um uh out of the business account right so we set we set up a business together um and so it was coming out of that account which of course the only money going into it was my my money so he was actually arrested at the car dealership getting the car repaired um and turns out that he was the reason he was arrested is because one of his fiances he'd used her credit card to pay for the car to get repaired um without her permission so she'd set up a police thing and uh he was arrested at the car um and they searched the car and they said um they found papers pertaining to his other wife in the car and then they looked at the car ownership and they said hang on a minute who's this and they rang me and said where's your car and I said it's my my husband's driving it you know and they said oh thank you very much and that was it and then I got a phone call from will saying angry first time ever I've ever heard him angry saying what have you done and I was like they asked where the car was I told them you know you know no no you don't know what you've done you've destroyed everything you know and uh yeah so it turned out of course because they had the papers his other wife in the car they charged him in bigamy um no because it's like I said my husband's driving it so they knew that that he was married to two women so he [ __ ] up by using the credit card of The Other Woman yeah not not his other wife one of his fiances so in 2005 he he didn't just have two wives he had five fiance as well so uh and uh so yeah so basically this police sting they found the taser in the car as well cuz when I went moved into my parents house I knew a taser was illegal um and uh but I did actually report to the police and said I had this taser you know sort of like I need to hold my hands up to this and the police police I talk to said did did you buy it and he said no he did and did you bring it no he brought it in the house and what did you do with you know sort of like did you take it out of the house I said no when we moved out I he took it away with him I said it was never yours um so it's I was but I was I was glad that I did hold my hands up to that because it's like I I thought that that was probably a criminal act but it wasn't mine so so he he was charged with bigamy so bigamy Firearms cuz he had the taser in the car um because I'd made him take it away with him when I moved into my parents he was charged with um the fraud of his fiance about £5,000 and the one of the fian and then he was also charged with not registering his address under the Sex Offenders Act because he also turns out to be a convicted pedophile whoa what I've done a lot of interviews love it's one of the most shocking that is that is shocking it is it just it's quite an extraordinary story isn't it it's just like I mean the the the pedophile side of things one of the that there's do you know that that there's a test called the psychopath checklist revised pclr devised by Dr Robert hair um who is the leading expert World leading expert on psychopathy and it's it's a 20 question checklist and it's like the first it's a statement and you you it's done by a professional and a criminal facility right so um but the statement for instance the first one is grandy of sense of self-worth and it's like is that zero so that person have zero or is it one or is it two so are they definitely bit of it or are they nothing right and one of one of the criteria so it's juvenal delinquency you know grandio sense of selfworth um you know many many marital relationships uh you know Etc and it goes through that and one of the things is Criminal versatility and it's like a lot of criminals will con will will be a thief you know or be a rapist or be a murderer um Psychopaths will do everything they will do different things all over the place um and I think with the particular case um it was and I have to be very careful to make sure we don't identify the victim in this case particularly um there was one victim specifically one one specific specifically yes and it was the child of one of his um Partners um and she was between the age of nine and 13 so it was convictions against a girl under the age of 13 you said when it when you said it was the child of a partner without going into specific not one of his wasn't his child stepchild or something um but uh uh I mean not a stepchild but a child or one of his Partners um but yeah so it's and I think personally that in his mind remember no guilt No Remorse no you know empathy etc for anybody I think the mother and daughter were close and I think that he in his mind was by having an affair with the daughter he was alienating the mother from the daughters like what he tried to do to you with your sister right it's to divide and conquer yeah but it's like because because he doesn't have that kind of moral compass that tells him I mean he knows it's wrong but I think it was just a matter of you know doesn't care doesn't care so and going back to the biger me uh charge at that point did it all come crumbling down in the sense of all you got notified what had been going on or was that left for you guys to connect the dots yourselves no actually it it's it's strange isn't it but the police actually did say to him he had to tell me what was going on because otherwise they would um because he told me at the time he said you know sort of the biger me well the other wife wasn't another wife she was an asset um and didn't I remember I'd spoken to her and I I kind of like vaguely remembered speaking to her uh at one point and there's a whole another level of things there is that actually there there were times when he would come home and we would have you know we would have um PCO and pizza or whatever and you know so like we'd have a few glasses or whatever and I I don't usually get so drunk cuz I don't remember things uh and I thought it was just because when I was with my husband I was relaxed and I would wake up in the morning and I wouldn't remember things all right and sometimes he would tell me things had happened and i' I'd kind of just take it on board that that's that has happened that's what happened so he had told me that I'd spoken to this woman before uh and I hadn't just I he it's just a kind of a setup thing he's reallying ahead then so yeah so I I believed I had spoken to this woman that she had told me that she was an asset um and so the bigamy thing wasn't huge to me because it's like I I knew that that was somebody who he had used to be involved with um professionally right um to allow him to come and stay in the country um and then there was the you know so like so he was he was breaking down the the the criminal sheet instead of saying that there's this there's this but I'm sitting there going all right this is sexual assault charge here that I need to know about oh sorry sorry can can I just backtrack just so that people understand are you now in uh a police situation with him or are you at home with him where no no I was at home so so I I got that call from the police first of all then I got a call from him and then things went quiet he disappeared for weeks and then suddenly he got back in touch and says I need to tell you what I've been charged with because if I don't then the police are going to call you in fact he actually said the police are going to call you but I want to tell you first um and so the good guy again yeah so but what he did is he broke down all the the charges so the bigam me was his asset that's fine the fiance thing he's he said you know that's just a misunderstanding um the the the fraud was just a misunderstanding he didn't say it was fiance um that the taser well I knew what the taser was but then this this um the sex offenders register um was the the sticking point that he had to explain to me about and what he said is that the person involved the the girl involved in this in that case actually signed a piece of paper saying that he had um molestor so that he could go into a sex offenders prison and gather some information from a particularly nasty group so they could bring down a pedophile ring right and here's me after all this time I've lost everything I've had two children with this man and I kind of go it's either or now it's like jumping the Grand Canyon in in two bounds you can't do it you have to be on this side or that side that's it and it's like my brain could not comprehend that this man could be a pedophile could not comprehend it just could not compute um but at the same time having been a victim of childhood sex boost myself even worse I'm just sitting there going absolutely stunned by this and and he said you know the just hold off don't say anything to the police about it but just know hold off we'll talk afterwards and I'm going to get you to talk to the victim in this case so she can verify to you never happened so I'm kind of going right I speak to the police always does this doesn't he don't make a decision now give me time just wait yeah and um so told to the Poli police please tell me you know what you know what was going on did you was I aware of this and I was going no he just told me I'm in shock which was true anyway so I had to go and see the social work department because you know they they had to verify that if he's you know if he's going to come back into the house then they have to take my children away and so I'm I'm sort of now dealing with social work I'm dealing with police I'm dealing with him I still believe cuz I can't get my head around the fact that I could possibly have been living and sleeping with a pedophile after all my history and everything else as well and um so I kind of go okay right I and he he sets it up I me talking to the actual victim in the case of his and the real one and it was the real one and um she she spoke to me and said no it never happened I signed something to say you know he is working for the intelligence Services I've been on all these bases and and things like that you know I've known him most of my life um you know so sort of like he's a he's a good guy um etc etc and she by this time was um 18 or something so um can I can I ask was she really deeply in love with him and he'd put her up to the same thing to lie to you because I've I've done a little bit of research into um sex traffic us ironically there's a very famous one on YouTube currently who has specifically said in his website I will retain them for decades after I've got them in love with me and they will say anything and I've seen girls online who've been in video smacked around and they will say in the in you know publicly it was just a game I was just doing it because it was part of a game we used to play but you're seeing how much pain she's in in the video so you can you can see it but to her she's still in that um warped frame of mind that she is under his umbrella right so so when you're saying this I'm definitely getting some flashbacks to that sort of behavior um and yeah that is that and for you it was there a point where almost like sunken cost fallacy like I've invested so much into you that I it can't not be true because that would destroy me and it has to be true it just everything I've done has been what I've been doing has been real yeah I've given you 200 plus th000 I've had children to you I've married you I've put invested everything into you so for it not to be real would just crumble everything so I I I can't not believe you now yeah for my own mental sanity I have to believe it's like that GL Gambler finding that one last pound coin you have to gamble it because you've already lost everything yes I feel you you know and it's it's just that kind of and by now and now you know that by that point it got you know [ __ ] got real you know because now we're talking about sexual violence against someone you know and yeah it was just it was all or nothing was she believable the girl on the phone she was I mean initially what she did was she just said you know I'm going to send you a statement just so you know and you understand the whole situation so I got the statement I read the statement it just it verified everything that he said right in different language than he normally uses and but of course he even that even that length yeah because I did actually meet meet with her afterwards and you know sort of like with during the court case I met with her and and she said you know that she she she had been Co into doing certain things um but she had actually never sent me a statement she people think [ __ ] isn't a real thing out there you know when when people get you know this comes out oh what's coercion coercion you're brainwashed yeah totally yeah yeah and then um so the next stage of this was on the 5th of April 2006 so that kind of all happened around January February so you took her word for it and you sort of were like okay yeah but I also I also at the same time was not going to risk my children being taken away so I had said you I said to them we can't continue we cannot continue as a couple because even if you are a hero and you've never done any of this stuff and you you've caught pedophile rings and you know Etc even if you are that hero if the social workers believe that you are a pedophile they will take my children away so you can't come home you can't be here it's good that that was there for you like you know how there's so much logic defy um uh defying things that you you you got through the love and the brainwashing that you had you still had that I'm not going to [ __ ] my family over and I'm not going to give my kids up no matter what you do so that was still there yeah I would I would cut my own heart out break it or anything else to look after my children but um and then on the 5th of April 2006 I got a phone call and I got a phone call from a woman and she but this he was actually going to court that day so he was going to court that day and he was going to be charged um sort of with a and and plead guilty or not to to all these different crimes um and he' said you know my my female lawyer will call you um and let you know what happened so I got this phone call and so I thought it was the lawyer and she just said are you Mary turn of Thompson and I said yes and she said are you also Mrs Jordan and I said yes and she said I'm the other Mrs Jordan and then she said have you been told I'm an agent and I said yes and she said I've been told you're an agent oh and that eight words those eight words shattered The Matrix you know I actually I'm I've gone cold my whole body has gotone cold just even saying them out loud again it just the all the walls around me crumbled and I saw the truth for what it was and it's like there were no shadowy people there were no it was all him everything and it's like and we talked on the phone for about 2 hours and then she said I'm coming up and she jumped in the car and she came straight up to Edinburgh and we sat and we talked for 12 hours we actually we actually went I didn't want her in the fat to start with so I I I got a friend um and she came and sort of looked after the kids and she me and the the other Mrs Jordan went up to a cafe did you have children with her as well no she she she had five children with him but she she left them behind so sorry what I meant was she had children to him yes yeah five five okay um so and so we went to this Cafe and as we walked into the cafe you know sort of like we're kind of both in shock um and the guy at the the counter said you know can I help you and I said I don't know we've just both found out we married to the same man and he said um I meant something to drink and I and I just turned around and said oh all right two cups of tea and he said do you want to share a pot blood how did she get your phone number to ring you what what what happened in her life to know she apparently she'd had it for a while um she she she' had it in a notebook somewhere for a while she'd been told and it was an emergency number that she was never to call um but because he was at court that day something triggered in her she just decided to phone it so what was your CT for this this this initial thing the the bigamy fraud firearms and not riching his dress so okay and had something happened to tell like had he gone down or no he actually the court date was delayed so he he hadn't even gone to court they they they just they kept postponing it uh I mean that was a 2006 he actually went to court in November 2006 oh so cuz they kept bumping it up to the Crown Court it was it was initially just a lower court and then it went up to Crown Court so it just it just kept getting delayed always happens with them I don't know why I don't know if it's normal because you know I've not been involved in many other criminal cases you know well yeah um thankfully and this one's want to end all I guess and you were sitting there with this other woman who is has a family to this man you have a family to this man what was that conversation like would you did you was there animosity there or was was there was there like friendship there immediately it was I mean certainly not on my part that she was sort of treating me a little bit about like the mistress um she felt like the main one yeah she I mean she'd been married him 10 years younger than me so technically she was the main one um my marriage was basically non-existent so um Yes mine wasn't legal in the first place so how come because he was already married you can't marry someone when you already married so bigam me is you know it's legal but it's also it meant my marriage wasn't legalized in the first place but to you it was the whole time and you you signed everything done yeah yeah so it's like but yeah but so she was actually correct in the sense that I was technically I wasn't you know but I didn't she also knew that I hadn't known any of this so you know she she was kind of like yeah so she went around kind of looking at things and going that's that's his and I was going no that's mine and she was going oh right you know he's got something like that done our house too you know so she went around looking at things and and stuff and we actually we sat down and we she she she rang his parents and spoke to them um and you know I recognize the voices that people I used to speak to so you know it was they were complicit in it all um his parents were working on behalf of him to keep the secret yeah oh and not just not just about her five children and my two children but also the nanny's two children but the parents were also informed by ious other people um which we'll get to as well but um yeah I mean this is this is it sounds like that's the ending of the story it's really not that's just kind of like we're getting to the you know sort of you know it just goes downhill from here so so this woman is is quite naturally she's she's [ __ ] up about this because she's like you know I thought I was the one and only and now here you are she she she knew he had affairs oh so she knew because she she actually the nanny had a baby Baby by him and she said well that's my children's sibling so you can come live with us uh Nanny could carry on being the nany and the child would be and then she got pregnant again by him wow so she let the nany stay after he got her up the dff yeah well she I think she I don't know I mean if I'm being generous you know it's it's you know she was trying to think about the children growing up in isolation without their siblings you know sort of like so this was a half sibling to her own children you know the first child and it's like oh no I you know you kind of fair play but not many women would be like and she can keep cleaning for us cuz she's been cleaning quite enough thank you very much um but no so yeah it's it's it's a I mean it's a really complicated situation but she did know about other Affairs because she knew about the there was a lady in Japan um for instance who actually we knew of her but she's only recently got in touch with us um so Japan was actually true yeah but he was only there for a few weeks he that's that's enough for yeah he just has a little taste of things know stuff like that and then so yeah he had had an affair with a girl in Japan um there was another you know there various things out you know so over the over the next few months um I I kind of I decided to go public I decided that a this is going to be a very long conversation but um I'm here for it I right I I don't I don't have any issue talking about this but I know it's a trigger for some people so I want to warn people that I'm going to be talking about something I appreciate that um I I was sexually abused when I was a child right now I was groomed by a friend of the family it wasn't my wasn't any my family but a friend of the family groomed me played a game with me made me feel like I was um the the sort of the hideand-seek and find me first kind of thing so you know the youngest to four children getting the attention of an adult I was groomed I participated in his game I was sexually abused over about 6 months right that finished when I was about 6 years old right I tortured myself from the age of six to the age of 26 right the Damage Done To Me finished when I was six but I from 6 to 26 I self-harmed I thought I was a piece of [ __ ] because I had participated in his game and therefore I was as bad as a pedophile because I didn't say no right so because I had enjoyed that game that made me an awful person at the age of 26 I said suddenly realized that what had done to me stopped when I was six but everything else had done to myself so with that realization I went I am never doing that to myself again I'm never going to punish myself from having been a victim of a crime all right so when this happened I went I'm not doing that again yeah I got all that life experience of knowing this was not my fault I might have been naive you know sort of like you you were saying like you know you you this could happen to anyone this would never happen to me again because I now know everything that there is to know about psychopath and function so I would never get caught again and that's why I try and educate people because hopefully it will stop them from being caught you know so if I knew now what I knew if I knew then what I knew now it would never have happened of course but then I'd never had my wonderful children so um but yeah so I I I so you gain strength from something which is horrific like the worst thing want to go through and you pulled from that and now it was okay now I'm going to deal with you differently yeah yeah I like that so instead of and it's a very similar thing being groomed by a psychopath into a relationship adult it's exactly the same so I kind of like came out of that literally that conversation with the other wife and I texted him in the morning and just said done you know she she'd said don't don't let him know that he that you know and we've met because I want to get the kids away from him uh and uh so I I kind of said yeah okay fine um so I didn't say you know I've just we've talked Etc what I said is just I'm done that's it you know we're over uh I thought dumping over her text was appropriate um not usually but you know in this case I thought it was he's not worth anything right how did you react um oh first of all it was um anger and then pleading and then you know sort of like can I call you and then tried to call me and I wouldn't reply and you know s of like why are you doing this and it went back and forth like that within the time it took her to get down there um was it hard to keep strong because I'm just I'm just want to put the scenario there because I would assume like you've wanted a certain level of attention and craving from and now all of a sudden you're showing strength out of nowhere and he is trying to do you know what I mean so that 20 years yeah that 20 years from 6 to 26 of of resilience and never going there again that literally from from when I spoke to her it was done there was no going back it wasn't like I was sitting there going oh but I love him or anything else it was broken there was I had jumped that Grand Canyon and there was no going back it it wasn't any kind of like you know knowing the truth and knowing that that everything that happened had been him doing it to me you know every single thing he'd done the very moment he'd contacted me that email he crafted that he sent to me on that online dating thing said that he was infertile as a child from bad about months he Li to me from the very very first words he'd sent me and his wife and his Nanny were both in the house and both pregnant when he wrote that email to me so it wasn't like he was mistaken or anything he had deliberately set me up from the very very beginning so there wasn't anything that might kind of went in my head oh but maybe actually my sister once said to me she'll hate me for the sess but my sister once said to me you know so like after the whole thing she said you think you might ever take him back and I was just going not on your life never not happening no and it's just because she is a romantic and but it's also very hard like I've you know we've all seen those toxic relationships where one of them is a real like especially one of them in particular is the really bad one and you're like but she always or he always takes her back or what you know what I mean you kind of I can understand the questioning but that's addiction thank God you had this yeah addiction and that's kind of what I was referring to with um the women who get obsessed by these toxic men a lot of the time because it's that hot and cold thing you get addicted to the endorphins going not knowing what the [ __ ] coming next but it's so good that you did have that strength um so so now the the word is out and and and it's it's gaining momentum and you're um but he he he he's on the way back and he doesn't know that she knows as well so how does that unfold well as soon as she arrived back you know she told him so um so then suddenly it's all I Now understand how could you do that you know that you know this is situation you know there's more to this you know there's more to to this and meets the ey you know sort of like you don't understand she's all about money there's this that and the other I mean it's all all just lay upon layer of other [ __ ] and it's just like it just wasn't happening it was just like and I just constantly and for a while I was really nervous that he would just pitch up on the doorstep because I was worried as that eye contact as that you know and I was worried that he might be able to suck me back in that way but did you ever fear Him physically as in he may do something to hurt you no not really um no I lived in fear of other people not not him you know but um the the idea that he might turn off on the doorstep made me very very uncomfortable and then I realized that all his texts were all about let me come and see you let me do this let me come you know I want to come and talk to you you know we need to talk face to face Etc and I realized that he was constantly trying to say and I realized that actually what's happening is if I said yes if I said yes to seeing him face to face then he was already halfway there because there's always there's something that I will accept that he will say that will solve the the situation and it's like so that's the equation in his head and he's been using that same equation over and over again but the psychology of it really works because it's like if you say you know if he turns up on the door I can slam it in his face if he says will you agree to meet me and I agree then I'm already saying there's something that he can say that I will listen to so I just kept saying no no not going to meet you not going to meet you and it's like you know it just it he carried on from April to September um my mother died in that period so my mother was terminally ill um just after I found out about him my mother then was diagnosed time a yell and she actually died on the 15th of August so the whole process as well of that going on what a life you were having and it was it was it was an interesting year um no it really must have been hell man I feel for you yeah seriously but uh um and then you know sort like all the way through that and he was like can I come and comfort you with your mother diet I mean everything he was even using that evening that so I need to see the kids all the time and the stuff that and I was just like no no just kept saying no and then you know he got out in bail for what he' done and I actually s of like I suddenly had this kind of brain wave and I as well was talking to the police um and giving them um explanations of what was going on and and and stuff like that and I eventually turn around to police at one point and said do you know where he is and they said we can't tell you where he is and I said no I don't want to know where he is I want to know if you know where he is and they said well you know so we we don't need to know where he is he's out in bail as long as he turns up to court and I said yes you do he is a convicted sex offender he has to register his address under the Sex Offenders Act do you know where he is and they went good point how the hell are they are you telling them like hey that's a good hey tell you she's on to something yeah maybe you should check that up so they went they went to the hostel that he said he was staying at and he wasn't there so they they tracked him down they arrested him and put him in jail and he was in jail until till the court after that and that's when he stopped trying cuz that's when he kind of like I don't even know if he knew it was me that had done that if he doesn't he probably does now but um you know so like and that was that was that the end of it and then I wrote a victim impact statement that went to the judge by this stage I'd done a lot of research into I realized that he was a sociopath psychopath psychopath now I realized but at the time I called it sociopath um now I can tell you what the difference is um but and you know so I wrote to the theud and said this is how all the crimes tie together because he was going to say he'd married me because I was pregnant that you know he'd he'd you know that the yes he played around but he was just a bit of a bad lad you know said and that's you know the fiance had found out and that's why she'd said that he took you know sort of like she gave him permission but then took the permission away that you know that he's American so he didn't realize that taser was illegal you know he was going to just belittle all these things and sort of separate them off so they seemed like in consequential don't play Everything so I I wrote to the judge and I told him everything and I just said this is what the scenario is um and I also got really um slightly hyper fixated on things so I end up going through the phone bills and ringing people up that you know because I was paying the bill so I I had his phone bill and I came across so five fiances um you know various businessmen um various landlords Etc um all of which he had conned um you know so of I came across his um son in America um so he has a son that's now 40 um uh came across so we know 10 children at a time um you know sort of like when I went to it just it just goes on and on and on you play investigator because I mean I'm assuming the police wouldn't have gone into this level of of depth that cuz you had motivation you wanted to really nail him to the wall at this point and and also make keep I wanted to understand I wanted I wanted to get the bigger picture I wanted to be able if you can see the bigger picture it means you're standing away from it all right so when you're in a relationship particular this toxic one if you're in it f you can't see it you can always see your friends toxic relationships but you can't see your own right that is great you know what I mean so it's like if you can step out of it and actually see the bigger picture then then you you've got that perspective and you understand what's happening and that's what I wanted I wanted to be able to by talking to all the I wasn't even thinking about writing a book then I was just thinking I need to know I need to have this information as much as I can as quick as I can and you know 10 fiance is I mean I are we saying that the money he was taking from you he was using in his other situations with other people and using it to set up other victims yeah I know that the um the otherwise children went to private school right so in that sense this web which is kind of similar to the the Tinder swindler story is you're pulling from this one you're spending it on that one is is kind of what he was doing in that scenario then he might he might have been giving money to his parents as well you know he might paying them for the bloody backup story it might have been gambling they might have been doing anything I mean doesn't it it's just a measure of control it's not really you know I don't think that the other wife was living lap of luxury but they were I mean lots of kids so I mean not just her own the nannies and you know so that there was there was a lot of things going on and they moved every year because you know although they lived in these big houses he didn't pay the rent and so like he would pay the deposit and and then the the rent wouldn't get paid and so months would go by the landlord and constant excuses oh it's coming it's coming there's something wrong with this something wrong with that you know um and then eventually the landlord would take him to court and then the day before the court date he would ring up and say my wife's just broken a leg um and so the court would cancel it and reschedule another month later and then when he did go to court he would go here's a check and he give it to the landlords and the judge would go done deal um and then you know so that when of course the check would bounce and then the landlord has to go take them back to court again so it would take about a year to evict them so that family were moving every year into a new property and she she fully believed that he was working for MI6 so you know she she had connections with American intelligence so he couldn't be a CIA so he had to say he was MI6 to her so she she fully believed all this stuff was going on was very shady deals and stuff like that her story is just like a whole another level to mine yeah it's 10 years on top of that so God only knows what else has been going on she didn't have any money so I mean the things it's not my story to tell but she you know the things he did to her make my my story look like a fairy tale so um and and so you're digging you're doing your digging you're coming up with more babies more fiance 10 more fiance I mean your your mind is obviously becoming more and more blown um but you want to get this story and what was the purpose of the story this Point are you going to try and use this in his court case or no when when on my day before my mom died um I saw her in a hospital and she said you have to write this down she said if this has happened to you it's happened to someone else and she said you know it just if if nobody else is standing up and talking about it you have to be the one that does um so she said you know i' I'd walked into a Bookshop and I said you know I've just found out my husband is a bigist Aon man who's actively impregnating women to written off money and I want to read a book about it and they the guy behind the counter just went so it's like not been done there isn't a book like that so um I after my mom died I I went to the ENA Book Festival and did some workshops and then I I went into a life writing Workshop um and before the publisher and the agent got off the stage or just as they were getting off the stage I leapt out my seat and ran down and talked to them and I said this is what's happened and they both gave me their card and that's now my agent in my first publisher um so I never had to go and Pitch it to anyone because no no big Miss wife had ever written a story about it before because everybody had always been so humiliated and so ashamed of what had happened to them that they wouldn't want to stand up and talk about it and what made me different is I know I have nothing to be ashamed of I had that 20 years of Shame and I knew there was there was nothing that I'd done other than try to be the best wife I could be and the best mother I could be and i' had been naive um but I think pretty much anyone who listens to me knows that I'm not stupid and I knew I wasn't stupid and it's like if it can happen to me it could happen to others so yeah so writing writing my first book The bigamist was just like it was just pure cathis you know it was just three months of this is what I found this is what happened and this is what I found out so at this point nothing had sorry he' the the cour case had been and gone and you knew of other other victims but you didn't know the full scale of it and that came with the book research and the more you dug so we're now getting to see the bigger picture now and how how big is the picture when you're looking at it in terms of victims in terms of money in terms of people and you kind you've met some of these people so yeah so that the the at the time I knew five fiance's two wives I knew have uh a couple of people in America before he came over to the UK with his uh wife um and so there were there were 10 children um and about uh about 10 10 eight or nine women um and there were also the landlords and there was also a couple of businessmen that he ripped off for hundreds of thousands of pounds yeah um not to mention the the other the um software company and stuff um the company the company in Manchester and that he was announced being in the times um they actually once once the book came out once the bigamist came out and I went public with a story so many people came out the redw and that company that that that he'd been announced as having having worked for in the times um they had gone busted because of him wow because he he totally destroyed their company uh and not least because he actually they gave him a company car and he drove it to the airport and left it in the short-term parking um and they I think it I think they found it like 12 years later know they didn't know where it was and they got the the you know the company actually got a bill for the for the 12 years of parking shortterm parking that it was worth I mean the bill was worth more than the car were you speaking to any of these fiancees directly yeah what was what were those conversations like and CU you're kind of at times the bearer of the bad news right and that's not easy to do you know it was incredible I mean talking to for instance the fiance that brought the charges against him for the fraud that set everything in motion in fact because she set up the police sting so I actually saw her as my My Savior and and we're we're still in contact UM in fact it's jumping ahead slightly but um you have to shorten this story somehow don't you because I went public with the book and so many more people came out of the woodwork and then when he was he went to jail he was convicted five years to two and a half he was deported straight from jail back to the USA in in March 20 no uh 2nd of March 2009 um and he immediately started doing it again so there's now all the new victims from America so within within 9 months I was contacted by three new people one of which was pregnant um and you know sort of like two others who had been ripped off of money um then he went quiet for a few years changed his name did some other things and I got contact by a whole new raft of people uh including one lady called Michelle Lewis and she's amazing she's like my we're like two pillars either side of the Atlantic that kind of have kept this this community of women going so we created a Facebook group wow and we had 21 victims on it at one point and you know sort of like and and it's got a lot less now but you know we were just this community of people who came together just talking about this same man and knowing and that catharsis of knowing that it's not just me he didn't do this to me because of who I am he did this to me because of who he is and it's like a cat playing with a mouse it's nothing to do with the mouse it's just the Cat's game you know and it's it's not personal and actually finding out that he was a different person with each of us as well you know and all that kind of jazz we actually we actually mapped out where he was when which is how I know he wasn't he wasn't in Edinburgh when you know he said come and pick pick me up I know he was in Oxford because I know he was there then you know sort of like it's how I know you know what he was doing to his feet you know and there's I mean there's so much more to this um you know sort of like different aspects we can talk about but you know the the behavior we were able to map and see what what he was doing and when and how and you know how he was overlapping with things did any of the women report anything like physically abusive or any more of the issues with children or whatever anything like that there was there was no other issues of any kind of um sexual assault on children certainly I think he learned his lesson with that one um I think he realized that was the biggest mistake he ever made um logically um because that's that's followed him and that's that's that's a that's a one he can't excuse really um but uh yeah certainly there there was one one relationship you had where you had someone up by the throat against the wall kind of thing uh and would have explosive anger um and stuff but again I think it's just because that's what worked and that relationship intimidation was something that actually worked in that relationship and how much money did he train from these other women do you think I think I was the one that that the lost the most um I mean it wasn't just the the £98,000 um once this the dust cleared it also turned out he'd taking credit cards out in my name so I was actually left with £56,000 worth of debt that was fun um cuz that was that I mean for for months afterwards I was getting phone calls from people going you need to pay this credit card debt and I was going as I told you yesterday you know this is my you know taking out my husband took it out in my name in my name I had no you know husbands can do that I think we taking out One credit card and he like forged the others are you are you still liable for that even though it's a crime that he did no I sold I sold my story to the Daily Mail um in you know sort of 2006 when it was all going to court and they gave me 8,000 and we put that into a pot and said to all these people you can take pennies in the pound or you can wait years you can get5 pounds a week kind of thing or5 p a month and you know so they took it so I was actually out of debt within six months thank God but yeah so it was it was great relief that but you know it was yeah one of the hardest things I had to do was go to my mom and say you have to cut me out the whe cuz it's like otherwise it's just going to all go to his debts and that was tough but um that brutal like right in there but like you know thank I mean look thank God you uh you navigated the situation really well for all uh you've talked about you know trying not to feel shame for what you went through uh the way you handled it when you had your eyes opened you you investigated you were Brave uh smart you connected the dots you brought other people in you made it as hard for him to do this again as humanly possible so you got to take credit in that yeah but it's not I want to make something quite clear none of that was done out of Revenge right I don't I don't hate him I don't even actually dislike him I know this sounds really weird right I I actually feel nothing for him but what I do want to do is try and protect future victims you know I I want to educate people so that they understand so they don't fall for the same thing I did you know people think that the red flag in a relationship is when they ask you for money right so you got to be watching you know they ask you for money or that's you're already too late by the time they ask you for money you are already hooked they've set you up for that moment yeah the groundw work's been done yeah so it's like the the in understanding that the red flags are actually the the love bombing that actually when you're taking you slightly off balance when they're slightly there's all sorts of techniques and I actually talk about them in the book but there's all sorts of techniques they use where you feeling that you feel they're building you up and actually what they're doing is knocking you down they're knocking your self-confidence constantly so you feel that the only person who actually has your back is them the feeling of being yo-yoed is for sure like I you can meet a guy and he can quote unquote like I know the love bombing is a specific technique but he can be really nice to you over the top nice to you but if he's always that and he's never you you AR getting the yo-yo then you're probably fine like he's just being a good guy but like you say it's this this feeling of the state that he keeps you in of not knowing what the hell's coming next is is where you don't know where you stand um but um was there any other shocking things that happened throughout these investigative uh things that you did I don't know so many I think one that I think you've got quite a lot of male listeners so they might like this one is that um uh one of his Partners actually didn't want to have any more children so she said she'd have her tubes tied um and he said no darling that's that's too invasive you know I'll go and have a vasectomy instead so he went away and came back with what looked like two cigarette Burns either side of his testies and strangely enough she got pregnant again [ __ ] hell this guy burned his own balls for a story twice wow the Psychopaths don't have any empathy for themselves any more than they do anybody else right so main difference I think between a psychopath and a narcissist is a psychopath doesn't care about anybody including including themselves whereas a narcissist doesn't care about anyone except themselves um and uh yeah he even though he felt that pain the first time um he doesn't care that his future self is going to pain feel that pain again in a few seconds so they they you know they just don't care about the future it's like you might you might go out tonight and and and have a drink but you've got something to do tomorrow so you won't because you don't want to have the hangover you know so you care about your future self right they don't M they don't care it's like that not for them why would they do anything you know for this future it's so like shock likee isn't it predatory um that's why they don't mind kind of going it's not that they don't mind but they expect to go to jail at some point you know they know they're going to get caught eventually because they're going to keep pushing the boundaries until they do like like the the Ted bundies of this world like they they will continue to do what they do um no matter what happens and and do you know where he is now I do well actually this this year has been amazing because it's like I actually got to go to America with filming the documentary oh wow so my daughter and I flew to to America and we met some of the other victims so I mean I've been talking to some of these people for like 14 years um and you know but we've and we've talked online and we we're we're really close I mean talking them through new relationships you know we understand the the issues that that each other has explain this yeah and so they don't have to kind of talk about the background it's like oh my God I'm going on a date you know they've done this am I being oversensitive you know um and you know so we we've supported each other you know people have gone off and got married and had children and and were still supporting each other you know um and know so to be able to go over to America and meet them and um but we also awesomely the production actually helped get a private detective um because one thing I've always said is like doesn't matter where he is he will be committing some crime um so so true yeah and uh and we were successful so and uh so yes he is currently currently residing in jail weai in trial again wow so before this time uh I larney um Czech fraud um you know variety of things as usual know but uh yeah and so I mean it was just it was amazing and it was just you know just meeting meeting Michelle and you know some of the EV Evelyn and some of the others there was out of the 21 victims I know only five wanted to be on the documentary series so you know you can't blame I understand but um yeah it was It was kind of cool it was kind of cool that the five of us actually did sit on speak but yeah it's a it's a Sisterhood I don't know how to describe it it's just the you know we all there's none of us sitting there going you were with my man in our I mean it's just like you know we're all we're all sort of really supportive each other so it's an incredible feeling to actually be able to stand and actually hug them and now your goal coming out of this is to better educate other people so that they can spot these red flags uh early enough so that you don't get into that situation where these are they're then asking you for money and all of that so so how has that been for you it's amazing I'm I'm part of a I'm actually on the uh Board of advisers for an organization called psychopathy is which is an international organization of neuroscientists and specialists in in psychopathy I don't know why I'm you know like just I I I've got no qualifications in it but just the you qualifi but um and one of the things that that you know we really need to do I mean a society has to do is that 1% of society full-blown Psychopaths 4% of CEOs 25% of the prison population these are all s statistics you can think of right but you're not allowed to diagnose somebody as a psychopath until they're 18 all right by which time they're cooked right just because somebody has lack of empathy guilt and remor does not make them a bad person all right it makes them have the capacity to do anything right we need to be able to diagnose people children as with psychopathy because the there are a lot of them and they cause the the damage they do to society will Jordan has done so much damage millions and millions of pounds worth of financial damage but also he is creating people people have committed suicide over what he's done um people have yes and and it's not just the partners and the children it's the it's the stepchildren that I mean I had a I had a daughter he get single mothers you know so it's the sisters the brothers the moms the dads that it goes off like a bomb in a community this person so 1% of the society are not affecting the just 100 people in their lifetime it's a ripple effect yeah is they're affecting thousands so the chances of you not having met a psychopath in your lifetime are pretty much zero all right and they affect people they they they really do damage in society so if we can actually Target you know children and say okay this this child is show sewing and and the first sign of psychopathy is fearlessness because they don't care about the consequences so the the children who are completely Fearless that the ones that you're actually going to go okay that is a a red flag but if we can say that okay rather than saying you know little Johnny you know if you do that you're going to hurt mommy's feelings because that means nothing to them or you're going to be in trouble later on you know if we can actually cut find a different way of bringing those children up so they become you know have a good moral code and actually understand their condition then they won't necessarily become monsters in society and go and going back to you said someone had committed suicide uh who who was that it was uh one of the nannies wow so yeah and by the way now I know 14 children by eight different women with the with this the new children being born in America as well since his release um and you know so the yeah 21 victims 14 children whole load of landlords and business people as well um you know so there sort of like within within that sort of community I mean I know of you know 50 odd people who who he has affected their lives dramatically you know it's like that's that's just and that's the tip of the iceberg I reckon there's probably more likely to be about 40 children because those are just the ones that have come forward since I went public have come forward and said actually me too yeah I mean how many people who was he operating under a different name with who'll never ever even hear of this yeah or don't or don't you know they don't know what happened to him or or don't even you know or know and don't want to be connected they don't want to know any anyone else to know I mean as I say the girl in Japan that was 1997 um she she saw uh an NBC dat line program that me and Michelle did years ago um that's still doing the rounds and she saw it I think in Germany or something um and uh she she got in touch and said oh my gosh you know I knew knew I would see a thing about him one day you know and gave us you know pieces of information that we didn't have before as well about that that time period um so yeah she's part of the group now I think it's good that you uh said that you don't hate him and that he doesn't have that hold on you and you've just let go because that you know while you're still living with that feeling you can never really be free of it right so that's great that you've got it that point mentally yeah I don't I don't even wish him I don't wish him harm or anything else I I'm glad he's Behind Bars because I mean we've just literally freed another victim you know so that that was that was somebody that that was in America that he was still abusing for wonderful better will um so you know she now at least can get on with her life and try and sort of repair things so it's not about enacting revenge on him and you know I want him in jail because I'm vindictive or anything but doing that means that she's now free doing that means that all those people in America can rest easy I can rest easy because he's not allowed back in the country you know but the people in America like Michelle you know she's got she can he could be around any corner you know so but she can rest easy whilst she's in jail knowing that that she's not going to bump into him so it's it's more about sort of as I say protecting the victims than it is about any vindictiveness against him he used to be he used to be a really really good con man he's not he's not so good anymore he's getting older and he's getting less desirable as well right part of the charm is you know a certain look a certain attitude and yeah but he's also I mean he's he's not just getting older but he's actually I think it's made I've made it quite hard for him yeah yeah you definitely have I wanted one last mention of your book if anyone wants to purchase it I'm going to put the link in the description below Mary turn at Thompson the psychopath a true story uh if you want to know in even more detail uh all those specific memories are in there and obviously the documentary is going to be on what channel it's on ITV x uh and SCV player and it's called the other Mrs Jordan catching the ultimate con man very good well I'll definitely check that out as well uh in full uh ladies and gentlemen Mary on the true Jordy podcast thank you very much appreciate it thank you well [Music] done

Channel: True Geordie

Views: 83,109

Keywords: True Crime, True Geordie, Real Crime, conspiracy, UFO, Aliens, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Richard Ramirez, Harold Shipman, Serial Killer, John Wayne Gacy, Fred West, Coffeehouse Crime, True crime daily, Crime Documentary, Ian Huntley, Joe Rogan, Russell Brand, David Icke, Eleanor Neale, Emma Kenny, Kendall Rae, Tinder Swindler, Murder

Id: 39wlrPbXO8Q

Length: 118min 6sec (7086 seconds)

Published: Mon Dec 04 2023