The Metaphysics of Prayer

welcome back to the word on fire show I'm Brandon vodka host and the content director here at word on fire Catholic ministries joining me as he does almost every single week is the auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles Bishop Robert Barron welcome hey Brandon how you doing well we know before you go someone someone came on one of my sites and said why do you say hey to Brandon it's it sounds so trendy I thought does he sound trendy I'm so offended by the informality of the greeting I guess like maybe we've changed a bit like we say hi when I was a kid and hey is more common now but I just sort of smile that is that like a millennial thing to say hey greetings your excellency greetings to you my son hey tell us about this event you just did at USC their campus we invited you to come out and give a talk there give us an update it was fun yeah I was going down to LA to record the 12 lectures on Newman which will come out later with our word on fire Institute so before the night before I went down and went to the Caruso Center which is a beautiful Catholic Center at USC and I just did a talk on the nuns you know who are they why they leaving how do we get them back and very lively crowd good questions afterwards so young crowd it was the college kids and and those who are kind of in that orbit so I got a kick out of that it was a good experience and didn't they just build this magnificent new campus medicine or something like that a church that is really something it's not giant you know it's kind of like a little gem a little jewel you know stained glass and and fine art and really striking and I whenever I go there I've been there two or three times now I always use it as an example of the vehicle crew to notice you know the way of beauty if you want to draw people to the church here's this very non-threatening way to do it but it's so it's a great example of it another thing I wanted to update people on after we did the last episode on dr. Jordan Peterson we've done maybe two or three of those now every day I'm getting multiple emails from people saying when our Bishop Baron and Jordan Peterson going to get together and we're happy to share with listeners that in about three weeks here at the end of March you were gonna be on Jordan Peterson's own podcast so he's got this podcast that releases episodes only once a month so it's very very sporadically so it's kind of a big deal that he's gonna devote a whole episode to talking with with you I'm guessing you're pretty excited about that yeah I've been following him for a long time we've never met I've never spoken to him directly but you know I've appreciated what he's done and I think he's an intriguing figure on the scene today so I'm you know happy to talk to him as I say he's such a great step beyond this this fiercely secularist kind of atheist stuff it's so prominent in the culture and he's I think opened some very important doors and windows toward you know a more positive approach to religion now is he all the way there I've say no judging from what I've heard but I think he's a very open sort of spirit and you know a guy that's certainly very bright and and willing to consider different points of view and so I'm eager to talk to him and just another update we're working on a couple of more angles to get a big stage event between dr. Peterson and Bishop bear and hopefully sometime in 2019 so we're hoping this is the first of many interactions between the two of you okay let's turn to the topic of today's episode today we're talking about the metaphysics of prayer and a big shout out to sister Miriam in Sweden who first suggested the idea to me she had a lot of good reflections and questions on what prayer is and how it works not just how to pray we've done episodes on that but yeah what's actually going on when we pray so I guess let's start off with that basic Sunnah question what is prayer metaphysically speaking and and how does it work what's going on well if we want to stay at that metaphysical level always keep in mind that God is unchanging it doesn't mean God is is distant and aloof don't make that mistake that's the mistake made by a process theology and so on God is unchanging God is unconditioned absolute in his being and God is Octus puros so our prayer was never meant to change God it's not meant to persuade him otherwise yeah or inform him of something he doesn't know see all those are our false ways of doing it and actually lead to a kind of manipulation of God which is spiritually unhealthy so metaphysically speaking we're not talking about changes in God but I like the category of metaphysics it means you know at the level of being prayer as John of Damascus famously said is the raising of the mind and the heart to God notice pleases from our side if the metaphysical - by its we're lifting ourselves up to a contemplation of God we're changing you know something really metaphysical is happening for sure to us as we raise our minds and hearts to God but one of the fundamental errors to avoid is that I'm in this sort of game of manipulation visa vie God when I pray it's never that it's always a response to a grace that comes first it's always an ordering of my life to God you know but I like the category of metaphysics that's good one I know you've spoken before about st. Irenaeus his idea that God doesn't need us and why that's such an good and liberating fact it's not something absolutely ashamed of but when it comes no when it comes to prayer does that mean God doesn't need us to pray for him it's not for his benefit no it's not like as though God is one of the mythological gods or goddesses that you know they're powerful and they're impressive but they do have a kind of needy relationship to the world they they require our praise they require our Thanksgiving if they don't get it they get pretty mad the same way you know a fallen human being would if you know I'm not given the deference that I deserve and so I'm gonna be annoyed at you you didn't come groveling to me sufficiently so I'm not gonna give you what you want see that's a very fallen human context what happens is often we project that onto God and we think that's what's going on with God you know but no of course God doesn't need our praise which means that's why you say quite correctly that's a great and liberating thing it means that with the praise we give to God redound to our benefit so the Aquinas says that you know many times that the prayer we offer to God and the service we offer to God is not for God's sake but for our sake that God delights in are coming fully alive and part of that process is what we call prayer which is the ordering of one's life unto God what do we do then with the many biblical passages which seem to suggest God requesting or demanding prayers and then it's seeming to change his mind like I was gonna do this but then I heard these you know prayers and then I did that if yeah prayer is not changing God how do we interpret those sorts of verses Thomas Aquinas takes that right on very directly and bluntly says those are metaphors we should not literal eyes them don't literal eyes that as though God has in fact changed his mind God doesn't change God's mind doesn't change he doesn't change in response to our supplication or our behavior so I would echo Aquinas that we simply take those metaphorically they're not meant to be literal descriptions of what's happening psychologically within the mind of God it's always a story of our coming online with God rather than than vice versa you know I think that it Brandon actually often because we fall in the trap so easily whenever I find myself in prayer saying some version of Lord I want you to do this why don't you do this it's thinking the Gospels whenever someone comes to Jesus and says here's what I think you ought to do if so fact oh we're in a bad spiritual space that we take that lead and start demanding what God want to do it's always the reverse you know of Lord helped me to become attuned unto your will and purpose that's what prayer finally is about how do we interpret also the verses specifically in the Gospels where Jesus tells these parables of prayer involving a a woman who relentlessly petitions a judge or he says you know keep knocking on the door and eventually it'll be open so it seems like the Lord is encouraging us to ask for the same things over and over persistently but why what's the effect of that no that's good because that's right one of the rules of Prayer I would say in the Bible is precisely that is persistence in prayer now I'll give you a gustin's famous answer Agustin said not because God is like this Pasha who you know if we wear them down he'll finally give us what we want who gets so exasperated with us you know no no it's it's the expansion of the heart and soul outward so is to receive the gift that God wants to give us so we ask what if we got it right away boom there it is well maybe I okay great thanks you know but my heart wasn't ready it wasn't expanded enough to receive the gift that God wants to give me so the persistence in prayer or why God might say no no no no now yes because I do want to give this to you and that's why I place the desire in you but you're not ready for it yet we're thinking about you know you're a father of six kids one of your kids wants a bicycle but she's not ready for it yet she can't ride it yet I want it I want it I want it no no what if you gave it to her right now the minute she wanted it she might get injured right she's incapable of handling it but then boy when she does grow up to the point where she can ride the bike and can really enjoy it now she's ready to receive it but it was that long period of waiting that prepared her heart so that's a gustin's famous answer to that dilemma let's talk about how prayer works visa vie the Trinity I remember when I was an evangelical protestant yeah inclination was always to pray to Jesus Jesus you know we were supposed to develop this close personal relationship with Jesus and so it was much rarer that I would direct prayers to the Father or to the Holy Spirit when we pray what are the distinctions between praying to different persons of the Trinity if God is one nature one substance are they all going to the same place the different persons respond differently talk about that it's a good question and complex actually let me tell you I'll get to it with a story years ago there I knew who was so concerned about the sexist language business that he didn't use the word father at Mass he would talk simply to God he would address God but see if he knows liturgically when we pray we're always addressing the father right and here's the point if we're just talking to God in an undifferentiated way then we're not praying a manner different than the way a Jew or a Muslim or a general monotheists would pray right that God believed God and I am as it were outside of God and I'm petitioning or adoring or begging God in an undifferentiated way what's the Christian difference the Christian difference is that the one God who's displayed himself now his father son and spirit we pray to the Father but look as though the son has his arm around our shoulder because the father sent the son right into our own humanity into our God forsaken humanity into our sin and death so the sons gone all the way out so the son now with his arm around us so to speak helps us to pray to the Father now where's the Holy Spirit come in the Holy Spirit is the love that connects the father and the son so the father and son never exist apart from Holy Spirit in fact now in this prayer the sons arm around my shoulder directed to the father is a prayer in the Holy Spirit I've been drawn into the dynamics of the love between the father and the son see that's way Christian praise we don't pray outside of God like he's at a distance we praise it were in God because God has opened up the the Trinitarian life and now includes us in it that's the an extraordinary privilege that I can pray now with the son's arm around me in the Holy Spirit to the Father I'm I'm in God sort of speak I tell people often you know whenever we pray we begin with this sign or you're at mass and we begin in the name of Father Son Holy Spirit we're signaling that we're in there you know we're not outside of God petitioning we're in the space opened up by the journey of the Sun from the Father which is the space of the Holy Spirit we're in the love that connects father and son and that's how we pray you know that makes a world of difference if I'm just I'm a human being with all my flaws and everything outside of God begging I'm in the attitude of a pagan or just a general mano theist but as a Christian I'm in a very different metaphysical space if you want because I'm now in the space opened up by the Trinitarian persons that image helps me of the the son with his arm around me I'm praying with the son in the unity of the Spirit to the Father when you're doing your daily holy our Bishop and when you have your own times of personal prayer do you find yourself gravitating toward praying to one person of the Trinity more than others or is it is it sort of in this same image that you just described I think it's in that basic image but I'll say this Brandon it's okay as you said quite correctly since God is one in in you know nature or essence the Godhead is one the Father Son spirit share the same nature right and we signal that in the device talking about the circum and sessio of the three persons that just means they sit in a circle together that means you never have the father without the son in the spirit you never have the spirit without the father and son you never have the son without the father in the spirit right so they're always together so if I'm praying to Jesus like Lord Jesus help me that's fine it's okay because the father and spirit are Co implicated in that or come Holy Spirit you know or come creator spirit fine if you invoke the spirit you got the father and son to necessarily I think the fundamental move reflected in our liturgical prayers what I was trying to say earlier that to the father sort of with the son in the unity of the Holy Spirit might be sort of the cleanest way to think about it but I'm fine with that but pray to the Father praying in the spirit and pray to the Sun you're praying to the one guy right but who is displayed in these three persons and but the three personhood of God makes a difference a big difference in the way that we pray say more about that how does it make a bit why is it different that we're praying to a Trinity and not to just because a one know big God because again the difference would be that word that little word - I'm not just praying - I'm praying in say that so even as I pray to the Father but I'm doing it with in the dynamics of the Trinity of the God's own life so it's not just - it's in and with so the - is conditioned by an in and with in a way that's not true of any other religious tradition none that's distinctively Christian seems to me if I'm and nothing wrong with praying to God but there's a different texture when the - is conditioned by the in and with that's the Christian difference alright let's talk a little bit about some specific forms of prayer I think classically in prayer there's different types such as Thanksgiving adoration petition metaphysically is there sort of hierarchy of these types of prayers you know I've sometimes heard it said that petitionary prayer is sort of the lowest level type of prayer and that as you advance you move forward do you kind of see things that way yeah I know that tradition I don't buy it though and I'm with John Paul - that the older I get the more I see first of all that every prayer is a petitionary prayer even even Merton talked about that in the in the 50s you know that there's this kind of prejudice against petitionary prayer is like a low level the way you know children pray but heck do with John Paul I'd say that the older I get the more I realize all my prayer has that form but I think it's fine to talk about these different levels and different types and I'm glad you mentioned the Holy Hour so just - what about two hours ago I was in my Chapel and it's not a bad way to divide your holy hour if you want to do it that way a prayer of adoration what is that well you know odd or ROTC Oh mouth-to-mouth it's simply being in the presence of God in an attitude of Union you know I'm just I'm not asking I'm not thanking really I'm just there I'm just ordering my life to God spend 15 minutes of your holy hour simply in the stance of Auto ROTC oh right a prayer of thanksgiving I can someone like you Brandon you know if so much to be thankful for is the father of family spend 15 minutes thanking God for each of your kids I think it's easier in a way for parents because you've got such brilliant examples of of gifts that God has given you you know but as a parent that's a Buell way to pray I think it's just think of each one of your kids one by one and why you're thankful for that child what that child's brought to your life so in my case it wouldn't be children but other things that God has done for me and just to go over the day yesterday you know what am i thankful for or just things in my life that I'm grateful for then a prayer petition good maybe spend then 15 minutes asking because like you know I did today just recently it happens all the time but recently tons of people have been asking me to pray for them people that are suffering that needs something that are afraid that are facing death there's all kinds of people so spend 15 minutes just doing that okay remember this person he asked for that Lord please if it's your gracious will grant that and then okay that other person talked to me do do that with all the people you can remember but I always do this carnal jours taught me this at the end of that process just say lord please bless all the people for whom I promised to pray because I can't remember them all maybe but of course you do you know when I said yes I'll pray for you because I you know I say it all the time as a priest now as a bishop is how many times I finish an email with you know I'll pray for you or you know thanks or uh or obviously pray for me so Lord bless all those people that I promise to pray for and give them what you know to be best for them because I don't really know what's best for them but you do so right there if you do those three things you got 45 minutes of your holy hour now what I do typically now is a priest I'm obliged to pray the office so I'll bring the office in with me and I'll pray it all through that process you know because the Psalms the great prayer book of a church this ancient prayer book is there a duration in the Psalms yeah lots of it there's a lots of auto ROTC all kind of prayers are there prayers of Thanksgiving yeah like man are there prayers of petition yep all the way through it are their prayers of like exasperation or appie I'm just exasperated Lord I don't know why what you're doing that's fine that's a great way to pray this I must do it all the time is to stand before the Lord who's our dearest friend and say okay you know I'm sorry but I just don't understand what's going on right now I don't know why I I don't think God minds that at all to hear that from us as long as it doesn't devolve into you know rebellion and all that but I think to express our sometimes exasperation with with God or just to lay out our struggles and Lord you know better than I what I'm going through and this is just driving me crazy and could you please do something about it and I think that's okay to pray that way so right there you know with the Psalms maybe of the church but then make those basic moves and you've got your holy hour covered let's talk about the difference metaphysically between personal individual prayer and liturgical prayer and I'm thinking not only of the mass the great liturgical prayer but also you just mentioned the Liturgy of the hours the Divine Office are these basically just personal prayer but with a lot of people praying at the same time or is there something more going on there metaphysically yeah I know with the mass which is the prayer of prayers is the privileged and distinctive prayer of the mystical body so this is now all the members of the mystical body joined together with their head Christ offering the perfect sacrificio loudest sacrifice of praise to the Father right so it's the highest prayer it's the sublime ax storm of prayer and it's necessarily communitarian even if I'm saying mass quote-unquote privately doesn't really no such thing as a private mess but if I'm alone at the altar with the Lord I'm still with the whole company of angels and saints and mystical body the mass bites very nature is communitarian right but it's the highest prayer because it's the prayer that the Sun offers to the father in this in this unsurpassable way on the cross and met prayer now is reap resented to the father in union with the mystical body so that's that's the prayer of prayers that's why it's the source and summit of the Christian life right so all other prayer liturgical and otherwise participates in that flows - it flows from it right it's that's why like today when I was in my Chapel and I'm in the presence of Blessed Sacrament well what's happening there but that's of course a link to the mass because the species in my Tabernacle was consecrated at a mass you know and that links me to my own ordination which links me to the bishop ordain me which links him to the bishop ordained him all the way back to the Apostles I mean to stand before the Blessed Sacrament is an extraordinary act of union with the totality of the mystical body so all prayer participates in the mass and then leads back to the mass even the most personal prayer it's never just me because I'm a member of the mystical body you know and so if so facto it links me to the premiere prayer of the mystical body which is the mass okay I do it that way okay let's close with this question suppose someone wants to go deeper on this topic not necessarily again how to pray I think we've we've talked a lot about that in past episodes just understanding the dynamics of prayer better are there any books or writers classical contemporary that you'd recommend oh I love you know CS Lewis on prayer but read Aquinas itself you know I know it's more technical but Thomas on prayer for the liturgy you know the great Romano Gordini read rotzinger spirit of the liturgy both Gordini right scary book for the same title spiritual liturgy those are our great I think sources for those but Aquinas if you want as sister seems to want sister Miriam the as you put it metaphysics of Prayer I think then I read Thomas Aquinas [Music] well that sound means it's time for one of our questions we take questions on every episode from our great listeners like you if you have a question send it in to us just visit ask Bishop Baron comm and record your question on any device today we have a question from Josh who is asking about the metaphysics of the Hail Mary prayer what specifically is going on when we pray the Hail Mary so here's Josh's question okay my name is Josh from Philadelphia my question is when I pray the Hail Mary what am I actually doing am i praying to Mary am I asking Mary to pray for me I know I'm referencing the Bible so I just want to know exactly what I am doing thank you that's a great question love that questions is very it's very simple and very direct which are always the best kind of questions what are you doing well look at the prayer hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee am i establishing thereby a link to Mary yes Mary is is the queen of all the saints assumed body and soul into heaven in this privileged place and she's deeply interested in the church because she's the mother of the church as she was Mother of Christ right so am i establishing thereby a relationship a connection to her ever Brandon some years ago you and I did that thing on it so it's always come back to my mind it was your suggestion about cell phones right that when you using a cell phone or GPS or something and these these impulses going up into the sky and they hit this satellite somehow and it processes heck if we can do that with our stupid little devices we can establish this extraordinary contact how much more could someone in the dimensional system we call heaven and so the first move of the Hail Mary's is that now mind you to hold off some of the standard objections are we are we giving praise to Mayer the way we give praise to God no the tradition separates the locked RIA we give to God that means the full praise right we give God from the Dhulia which is a type of honor or service that we give to the Saints and then Mary receives I love this term hyper Dhulia she receives a kind of elevated form of this honor right so we're not praising Mary the way we praise God we're not we're not worshiping Mary I'd say we're establishing this contact through great words of honor to Mary here hail Mary full of grace bless our throne it was fruit of thy womb Jesus but then look at the second part of it Holy Mary Mother of God again by saying mother of God we're saying mother of the church and so were a child calling out to our mother Holy Mary Mother of God now here's the key pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death the fundamental move is asking Mary to pray for us to intercede for us we honor her with a hyper Dhulia hail Mary full of grace we named her properly as the mother of God and then we call upon her as a child calls upon a mother for help intercede for us at the throne of God there's no more powerful intercessor the Mary so I say that's the fundamental move we're making is asking her to intercede for us just as I often say to my Protestant friends who walk at this don't we ask each other for prayers all the time we say hey could you pray for me you know Brandon could you pray for me and use it could you pray for me well sure well then why wouldn't we say that to our heavenly friends who are in a in a more intense relationship to God why wouldn't we ask them to pray for us - so Mary who's the queen of All Saints who deserves hyper Dhulia and she's the one we ask as a child as a mother to pray for us so there's much more to say I've written little bit about the hill Mary which is such a beautiful prayer has so many dimensions to it it's it's deceptively simple that prayer because there's so much that actually is going on but I think those are the basic dynamics well we're releasing this episode the Monday before Ash Wednesday Ash Wednesday is just a couple days away which means the beginning of Lent and if you'd like to receive some extra spiritual guidance during Lent visit lint reflections dot-com lint reflections calm there you can sign up to receive free daily reflections from Bishop Baron on the gospel readings throughout all of Lent it's a great program hundreds of thousands of people subscribed so go to lint reflections dot-com thanks so much for listening we'll see you next week on the word on fire show [Music]

Channel: Bishop Robert Barron

Views: 157,800

Rating: 4.8733139 out of 5

Keywords: Bishop Barron, Word on Fire Show, Metaphysics, Prayer, Rosary

Id: h35fXJ3LzTs

Length: 29min 34sec (1774 seconds)

Published: Mon Mar 04 2019

Reddit Comments

[u/OursIsTheRepost]

He's mentioned wanting to talk to theologians before his lectures on Exodus, seems like this is a good guy to talk to in that regard.

[u/stereoroid]

I would personally find it helpful if JBP would make his position on religion clear. Does he really believe in it, or is he advocating it as a kind of therapy for others - as one of the ways people can find direction? However, I get that I'm not his target audience, and that if he came out as an atheist then he could lose a major chunk of his audience. It just seems inconsistent for him to flirt with religious stories and religious figures while at the same time being an advocate for free speech.