The Holy Trinity: Jew vs Christian

hi I'm Lee Strobel welcome to faith under fire when it comes to tough questions about faith the Trinity is right there at the top Christians believe in it Jews and Muslims don't but the real question is does the Trinity make sense or not does it stand up to scrutiny or does it crumble under close examination we're going to find out today through a debate between rabbi Tobias singer he's a radio host on Israel national radio and author of the book let's get biblical and dr. William Lane Craig a research professor of philosophy at the Talbot School of Theology and author of the book philosophical foundations for a Christian worldview Toby let me start with you if you don't mind the Jewish faith believes in a monotheistic God what exactly does that mean you know the Ten Commandments Exodus chapter 20 the oh my the first thing the almighty says is thou shalt have no other gods besides me scripture says that God is not a man in numbers chapter 23 so therefore we have a direct misssara from God that there is one and as the almighty says in Isaiah chapter 43 44 45 that there is no other that God shares his glory with no one okay lets a pick up their bill and talk about the Trinity what is it exactly and why is it important to Christians well I think it is importantly to begin first by defining what we're talking about the Trinity is the doctrine that in God there are three persons three persons in one being and why is this important to Christians well because it's true it means that Jesus Christ is God he is equally God with the Father and that the Holy Spirit is also God equally with the father and the son and that these three are distinct persons but all God and that they carry out different roles in the plan of man's Redemption the father sends the son the son dies on the cross to atone for our sins and bring us into reconciliation with God the Holy Spirit gives us spiritual life and sanctification for living a life pleasing to God so all three of the person involved in daily Christian living okay Toby you disagree why I'm an Orthodox rabbi we believe that the Hebrew Bible alone is divinely inspired and is absolutely trustworthy and therefore it is these texts that we look to to say what does God say about his nature what is the Almighty share and all you do is look at Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 4 you know these are the first words that a little Jewish boy little Jewish girl learned hear o Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one why don't we have a clear text anywhere in the Hebrew Bible that gives us the Nicene Creed the very clear statement of a triune doctrine it's found nowhere in the Hebrew Bible our salvation depends on worshiping God in truth and therefore let's look at the Bible itself that's a fair question bill how would you respond to that it seems to me you know where it comes down to the question of is the New Testament trustworthy does it contradict though what the Old Testament is saying I think that's exactly right ly we're coming at this question from two different sets of scripture or wholly inspired writings and I would agree with Tobia that if you approach this question simply on the basis of the Hebrew Bible or what we would call the Old Testament one wouldn't come to believe that God is a Trinity but if you approach this from the writings of the New Testament which I believe are equally inspired by God then the doctrine of the Trinity is taught there and so I think it will depend on which scriptures you look at to see whether or not God is a Trinity and I would say furthermore that the doctrine of the Trinity is not in any way incompatible with anything revealed in the Old Testament okay Tobia how would you respond to that think about this for what that means from the time of Abraham until the time of the New Testament talking about 2,000 years or from the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai until Christianity of first century took one of 1300 years the Jews you can see knew nothing about our Trinity God warned the Jews throughout all these centuries worship me in the truth you admit that they would have no idea what that truth is Abraham spoke to God he didn't speak to a tri unity you believe that if you don't believe in the gospel you don't have salvation how is Abraham Isaac Jacob David save without the Trinity isn't it more likely isn't it clear that the Trinity was unknown to anyone and it's a product of a Catholic Church which I frankly am surprised the Protestants fellow they're saved by responding to the revelation that God had given to them and if they respond to it in an appropriate way then according to the New Testament God applies to them the benefits of Christ's atoning death so that they are saved through Christ even though they have no conscious knowledge of Christ because they respond to the revelation that God has given to them so I don't think we need to be distracted from the issue of the Trinity into talking about issues of religious pluralism or exclusivism I think that's quite a side issue ok we're going to take a break at Tobia when we come enix and they try to convince us that Jesus Christ didn't think he was God and that the authors of the New Testament didn't believe he was God either and so I think bill is going to disagree with that stay with us you're going to want to see that and just going we're talking about the mystery of the Trinity with dr. William Lane Craig a Christian who believes in the deity of Christ and one God in three persons and rabbi Toby a singer who believes Jesus was just a man and that God is just one period so it's oviya you know as I read the New Testament what I see is four teachings pretty clear that as I understand it number one that Jesus is God that number two the father is God number three the Holy Spirit is God number four there is one god so as I read that that's how I understand the Trinity is a Christian now you say that Jesus is not God he is not equal to God on what basis do you make that claim oh no of course either this is silly the Messiah made it clear is not God he has to fear God why would the Bible say that God is not a man yet the bill is saying at the the church are saying the Pope wants you to know that he is the man why would the Bible say that the end of days in Jeremiah 16 that the Gentiles that means you Lee in you Craig gonna be coming to the children of Israel and say you know teach us but God we have inherited lies and vanity well the answer is that you guys need to get on with the radical monotheism know that there is God alone there is no progressive revelation when it comes to Commandments all 613 commandments are clearly in the Torah a progressive revelation could be about information that's not necessary for salvation like the resurrection of the Dead all right let's let they'll respond to that bill the whole question of Jesus divinity is crucial to this so why do you believe in how do you respond at obeah it it's absolutely crucial ly it is it is the person of Christ that forced these monotheistic Jews all of the disciples and apostles were monotheistic Jews it was the person of Christ that forced them to think about Jewish monotheism and to see and discern within the Godhead a plurality of persons that is to say God took on flesh in the person of Jesus of Nazareth so that Christians believe that Jesus was truly man and truly God and you cannot disprove that he's truly God by quoting passages which events his true manhood III think that when people teach that Jesus was God I think that really you're disgracing Jesus because certainly he had never intended never dawned on him that one day these Catholics would make him into a deity and worship Him Christians are terrified of considering that Jesus wasn't the gun because they're afraid they're going to go to hell if they don't worship he's in truth and I implore them just go back to the text and go back to the Hebrew Bible because that's okay because when you go to a tax bill what do you find that's my question well when you go to the text what you find for example is John chapter 28 where doubting Thomas sees the risen Lord and he falls at his feet and says my Lord and my god and Jesus says blessed are you because you have believed and blessed are those who have not seen me and and yet believed Jesus blesses Thomas for that so the doctrine of the deity of Christ is forced upon us by the New Testament it's and I think it's forced upon us by the claims of of Jesus himself let's move on to the question of the holy that's the third person the Trinity according to the Christian belief the Holy Spirit would be who to utopia well you know you know to to a Jew the Holy Spirit the ruach ha'qodesh is the dynamic force and presence of God what's critical is it's not a separate person from God but it's his dynamic presence ok bill is the Holy Spirit a force or easy a person I think it's clear in the New Testament that the Holy Spirit is treated as a separate and distinct person for example in the baptism of Jesus you have the father speaking to the son saying this is my beloved son with whom I'm well pleased and then he is anointed by the Holy Spirit and in various passages in Scripture it will speak of God the Father the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit putting the three names in order and it's not a redundancy different roles are ascribed to these three persons so I think the Holy Spirit is treated in the New Testament as a distinct person who would come after the Ascension of Jesus to carry forward the work of Jesus in this world okay tolya is it possible that God would have a new message an unfolding message for his people is that at all possible to you the Bible says clear that God wouldn't play a trick on us not tell us the truth of his nature punish us for not worshiping him properly and then going haha I didn't really tell you here's a Christian Bible 2,000 years later I mean honestly how was Abraham saved why would God call him his friend if Abraham didn't worship the Trinity if Daniel is God's friend beloved Daniel chapter 9 and why would God keep a secret from we're worried we're running out of time here here let me just ask bill if you could answer the question that was just raised is it's a trick that God played absolutely not and many many Jews today believe in Christ as their Savior one of the most rapidly growing segments of Judaism is Messianic Judaism which has been a very fresh now but that doesn't believe in Jesus as Messiah so I in Christ is the most Jewish thing you can do let me tell you Jews follow all the craziest things in the world doesn't mean I'm going to shave my head off and leave here in the middle with tambourine and go to LAX just follow everything only a minority a small group that follows the truth the fact that Jews worship in Jews for Jesus that's a sad truth but as I do with God that's a reflection of sin they seem to suggest it something else more of a fulfillment of what they've known in the Hebrew Bible it Sophia as you know I've written about all the case for Christ sets out the evidence that convinced me when I was an atheist that Jesus is divine that the Trinity is true and so I hope you'll understand if I remain a Christian after this but I want to thank you for offering your thank you bill I want to thank you as well thank you I've enjoyed the discussion thank you for those of you at home I want you to stay with us we're going to be right back with some more interesting debates on faith under fire

Channel: drcraigvideos

Views: 228,228

Keywords: Tinity, Judaism, Christianity, Rabbi, Tovia, Singer, and, William, Lane, Craig, Jew, Christian, Jesus, Holy, Spirit, God, Father, Old, Testament, New, Monotheism, Torah, Jewish, Apologetics, Debate, Philosophy, Religion, Theology

Id: 2lwRTki1js0

Length: 12min 1sec (721 seconds)

Published: Sun May 08 2011