Rabbi Jonathan Romain vs Michael Brown • Was Jesus the Jewish Messiah?

welcome to unbelievable with me just in Briley the show that brings christians and non-christians together every week for conversations that matter you can find out more and subscribe to the podcast at premier Christian radio comm slash unbelievable or today we're asking was Jesus the Jewish Messiah and I'm joined by Michael Brown and Rabbi Jonathan remain my Christian guest Michael Brown is a Messianic Jew he's well known in the USA for his radio show the line of fire and participating in numerous debates on Judaism sexuality and the charismatic movement he's also the author of books such as a queer thing happened to America the real kosher Jesus and authentic fire a response to John MacArthur's strange fire Jonathan romaine is a rabbi in Reform Judaism who leads a maidenhead synagogue in Berkshire here in the UK he regularly writes for the press and appears on TV and radio Jonathan's expression of Judaism is a progressive one which affirms gay marriage and euthanasia issues which he's been involved in campaigning about and he's the author of the book confessions of a rabbi so today we'll hear both their stories and why Michael believed Jesus is the long-awaited Messiah of the Jewish people and why Jonathan doesn't and I'm sure there'll be lots of related things we'll discuss along the way gentlemen so thank you both Michael and Jonathan for joining me today glad to be here it's great to have you both let's see your story first of all Michael it's great to have you back I think it was well over ten years ago that you came on the show and I think that was a discussion with Rabbi Shmuel e-boat Jack who's that yes yes Rabbi Shmuley yeah so what an interesting character I'm sure you're familiar with him well let's hear your story though for those who aren't familiar and because you were an adult convert really to Christianity a teenager yeah and I wouldn't think of myself as a convert to Christianity but a believer in Jesus the Messiah so I was raised in a conservative Jewish home born in New York City raised on Long Island Bar myths for the 13 but it was it was not a deep Judaism for me my bar mitzvah was more of a social event the big spiritual event for me was going on my first rock concert seeing Jimi Hendrix in a concert at the age of 13 oh and jealous already yeah so I was I've been playing drums since I was 8 the Beatles came to the States when I was nine I got caught up in that whole scene so the whole drug life appealed to me that when I was 14 I started getting high and I became a heavy drug user shooting heroin at fifteen then my two best friends played in the band with them two best friends at the age of 16 started going to a little gospel preaching church because they like two girls there they started to get changed so I went to pull them out and these folks begin to pray for me I had no idea they were praying I became very uncomfortable with the life I was living I've been boasting about it the day before now I was really uncomfortable with it and little by little God started to work in my heart and I really came to believe that that Jesus died for my sins and rose from the dead my life was radically dramatically changed pretty much overnight got rid of all the drugs and all this and my dad said great glad you're off the drugs but we're Jews we don't believe in this got a problem with this so he brought me to meet the local rabbi freshly out of curious Theological Seminary he befriended me we began to dialogue he gave me books on anti-semitism in church history and books on why Jesus couldn't be the Messiah and the certain point he said listen Michael the problem is that you're more spiritually oriented than I am you know you're more religiously zealous you need to meet Jews who are just as Alice as you are except they're right in what they believe so he brought me to meet Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn we began to dialogue and that really pushed me I need to learn Hebrew for myself so that led ultimately to my doctorate Near Eastern languages and literatures from New York University just to be able to study the text and their ancient and Eastern background and and I'm quite convinced that Jesus Yeshua is the Messiah of Israel and the savior of the world so I've written on it extensively debated extensively but been greatly helped to sharpen my beliefs and better understand my beliefs through these debates and dialogues with the Jewish community great yes and you've had a number of these kinds of dialogues and debates over the years I guess you were brought into Christianity through what was known at the time as the Jesus people kind of movement and that sort of thing that sort of you know late 60s early 70s kind of yeah I didn't know that there was such a movement taking place but it turns out that around the world and and I've been all around the world many nations and found the exact same stories hippies rebels chuckles all around the world coming to faith in Jesus and what's interesting is that because so many Jews were at the front lines of the counterculture movement the Jerry Rubin said the avi Hoffman's in the Allen Ginsberg's and the whole rebellion sand and looking into Eastern religions and Hari Krishna and all this that that a large number of Jews came to faith in Jesus at that time as well we were looking we were searching and discovered what we were looking for in the Son of God well we'll get into that subject obviously that's the main thing we're looking at today and I'm sure we'll talk about some other things related as well but Jonathan don't know if you ever had a a hippie past which or a misspent youth in the same way that Michael has had all what's your story was so much younger than no it's a very different story I was brought up in the Orthodox synagogues in Britain but around about 11 or 12 my parents switched the reform and although I always sort of felt at home within the Orthodox certainly when I decided to become a rabbi there was no question it had to be within the reform movement because those who aren't familiar with the terminology you want to adopts essentially keeps with all the traditions none was reformed tries to marry the best of the traditions of the past with the reality of today so for instance Justin if you were to go into an Orthodox indigo it would be all in Hebrew in a reformed synagogue we mix Hebrew and English tradition and modernity if you went to an Orthodox synagogue all the men would be downstairs and the women would be upstairs and otherwise a complete separation of the sexes whereas in the Reform many women sit together pray together women can take part women can be rabbis you know I almost feel silly explaining it was right we take it for granted women are fully equal hmm so there it's a very different so I suppose the key word to differentiate the Orthodox from the Reform and of course this will apply to the church as well is the c-word and change to what extent can you change the the way the faithful operates and say that what was meaningful for a previous generation is not quite so meaningful or needs to change its format for a new generation and what does day-to-day life look like for you as a rabbi leading a synagogue great fun I know that's a love thing a rabbi all the great things is you you you every day is different there's no set routine and it might I mean a rabbi essentially like a vicar or a priest in other words you're involved in the sort of the teaching whether it's within the community or to the wider world with religion school at education going to local schools and then at all the cycle of life things that sort of hatch match and dispatch aside and it's very much being part of the community life is with the people and in fact one of the successes of my synagogue Maidenhead because it's outside of London I mean Berkshire and by and large British juries an urban community largely in places like London Manchester Leeds Glasgow and and therefore having a community outside the urban center is unusual and we've sort of almost rebranded the synagogue from being a sort of House of Prayer to a community center mmm so it's not just for services obviously they're there but also its social and cultural and educational welfare and there's a services but it's also the poetry circle and the book club how many changing open their doors in the way events because people have different needs to quote one of them for your guys this is a house with many doors and I don't honestly care which door people come in it is coming is belonging sense of community and and how much sort of engagement would you have with a Christian community in that and yourself personally how much have you sort of dialog done these kinds of things with oceans that very much so and it's almost taken for granted that if you're a reformed rabbi as part of your training actually and I come from the Leo Beck College in North London and you will inevitably look at other religions you'll meet other other faith leaders we do a week away with other sort of ordinance and it's just taken for granted we would dialogue with Christians with Muslims with others and nothing continues on so we've got very good relations with the local churches council Christians and Jews three faiths for Rome and it's just like bread and butter what's the main difference for you between dialog in with a reformed Jew and an Orthodox Jew Michael yeah that's an interesting question on the one hand at an Orthodox Jew and myself we'd be a bit more fundamentalist in our beliefs in terms of the authority of Scripture and and the degree to which change would come so for example I was debating a very left-wing reformed rabbi in the States one time and and after his initial presentation where he freely quoted atheists and others in question scripture said you know the biggest difference between me and you is that is that I believe that here ascriptions are God's Word and you don't he said that's correct so again he said he was extreme in that in that sense as well but I could just quote Scripture and say I believe this is God's speaking or God's worth reform position would recognize that as inspired but would see maybe more humanity involved we that's so on the one hand we'd have more in common on the other hand I would be looked at in the sense it's less of a threat in a reformed setting than an Orthodox setting just because reform would be much more open to dialogue and just see areas of commonality and and not not see Jesus so much as the as the enemy as an Orthodox might anticipate that you might have equally as many questions and and problems with someone who's a very liberal Christian perspective as you might with with yeah there'd be a lot of parallels on the social issues on the moral issues on how we interpret Scripture authority in our own lives in a reformed position on the commandments is guidance not in governance so we'd have the same kind of thing with a liberal Christian as well what do you make of the Messianic Jewish movement yourself Jonathan well I mean to be very frank with you I don't normally comment another phase because if they've got a path to God that's great I'm inviting you here to be frank that's all essentially I'm not very impressed okay and for two reasons and firstly there's a sense of well why bother I mean you know if you're going to accept Jesus as a messiah right that's why I got no problems with that I think call yourself a Christian okay because in a sense one of the dividing lines and it doesn't matter whether you're an orthodox or reformed you is the person of Jesus there's so much in common the ethics and morals but you know is Jesus a bloke or is he the Messiah is he an ordinary person or is he in the Son of God that's really the dividing line short and therefore we've seen the same week Judaism as a sort of a Wow almost a bit of a fudge to be honest because it's almost like a soap to Jews who want to become Christian but feel guilty and leaving and it's a way of a swaging than saying oh well you're not really leaving Judaism you can still be Jewish and Christian was we think well you can't be labeled conservative you can't actually be both and there is a dividing line so that's one objection or reservation and the other one is just the normal differences between Judaism Christianity with if you're a born-again Jew or a Messianic Jew or Jew for Jesus or whatever you want to call yourself of course you know again there are lots in common between the two phase but we are not Christian and we do not believe that Jesus was Messiah for various reasons and therefore it's great if you're happy being Christian but if you'd only think it people who call themselves Messianic Jews should wear the Jew label as it were any longer because really they're Christians if yeah I mean it doesn't bother me so I'm not offended by an idol at all if he's happy then good to be honest if you to me if you're religious you actually want people to be in communion with God and it doesn't matter whether they're a Hindu or a Jew for Jesus or Christian or Jew it's actually the relationship with God now for me he's not Jewish Jews of Judaism are not Jewish because they've crossed over a line into a different faith great no problems with that but there is a distinction okay Michael yeah so the funny thing is that my Orthodox frenzy of course you're Jewish because their thing would be born at you died you and even you know Tom lytic statement even if Israel since Israel still Israel they'd look at me as an apostate you but the thing that's fascinating to me of course if we go back to the roots of things there was no such thing as as Christianity all the first followers of Jesus were Jewish and even though they related to the Torah differently over a period of time they this was still part of their lives so Jesus the Messiah Yeshua the Messiah mother Miriam is disciples Yaakov and y el cuñado things like that it's it's a Jewish movement and all we're saying is why does it have to be something separate and foreign but the thing I'd like to pursue and here's here's my big question and this I think is where we'll have the the biggest issue is sorry for the person of Jesus is the question of absolutes you know these days we have there's your truth my chili to have our truth but you can't be say for example a believer in God and the staunch atheist at the same time and then the question is if God exists then atheism is fundamentally wrong so my question and I'm really curious not not to press you but to understand where you're coming from rabbi is if Jesus literally rose from the dead and ascended to heaven that that's either true or not it's not a you know my perspective versus your perspective we could debate did he fulfill prophecy or not but but if he literally rose from the dead and this was God's sign of vindicating him backing him if he is the savior of the Gentile world then he has to be recognized as as who he said he was the Jewish Messiah if in fact it's not true in other words a Jew should not follow him because he doesn't have the qualifications of the Messiah then that would say what the New Testament writers are saying it's fundamentally false and the witnessed him rising from the dead is also fundamentally false so Christians shouldn't believe in them either and that-that's-that's are just curious to know how you work that through because to me he's either the Jewish Messiah and the savior of the world or he's not the Jewish Messiah and is the saver of no one well I think you're forming into the trap of having an either/or because okay so we could argue about this point but then we've left out millions of Muslims millions of Hindus millions of Buddhist and witness of Sikh so he's saying that they're in or out of the game that they're wrong I mean enough I think he's one of the things that's really changed religious life over the last 50 years is comparative religion and beforehand they were sort of maybe one religion which had contact with another religion but now we know there are dozens of religions and with lift outs of Jainism and all sorts of others and we can't say oh just one's right a one and then how all the others are wrong where did they go wrong so well I think we now a sort of a mature understanding of religion is to say there is one God but many different perceptions and the people worship God in their own way in different languages some will call him others other someone calling Buddhist on Christ some deny some gods on whatever it doesn't really matter it's actually what you do with your life and therefore the the the issue of point-scoring or saying my religions better than yours or mine is right yours is wrong or this is true that's false that's so old hat um you know we all worship God we do it in our different ways and let's support each other rather than rival each other but we are saying different things very often within those different religious systems so if Michael believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God and rose from the dead obviously that's different to what you believe so there's there's a difference of of actual what we believe about that yeah but there's I come with you so what I mean so what if he believes in Christ what's really important is what he does in other words does your help an old lady across the road or does he barge prosper it in other words it's the ethics it's the values it's how we behave what we think you know if we think that God has sort of got Chennai's and it's got a green face okay I think that's nothing but so what it's actually how we behave and therefore for me Christianity ticks the box because it's about religion it's about values it's about ethics about morals love your neighbor as yourself and we could say the same about most other of the mainstream phase so what we call God is almost irrelevant isn't that the exact opposite of what scripture says in other words as God speaking to our people he's very specific don't worship me as this don't worship me as that it's not just ethics there are nice Idol worshipers there are nice pagans who were raised good families and cared for the needy and yet God rejected that and said for Israel you can't have that so I mean you as a rabbi you're not telling your people hey whatever you conceive of God is perfectly fine because you you have at least something that says you're a Jew and Judaism is it's true at least for your people of course Christianity sends missionaries around the world because we we do believe people need Jesus and and are in a sense lost without him but again here's what I struggle with it and I understand there's two very different minds into something that point about the thing is the whole point about the pagans is you know okay if someone wants to worship a piece of wood doesn't hurt me what was wrong with the pagans is what they did in other words they had child sacrifices and they had sacred prostitutes it was the actions of the pagans not their thoughts but that's because they didn't know the true God which then led to that's but but here's the thing God said to Israel you can't worship rock you can't worship stone why was God so exclusive when you seem to say it doesn't really matter how you worship Him as long as you're nice person where scripture seems to say no he must be worshipped certain ways so again it's not a matter of scoring points and this as I said is where we have very very different mentalities but here if the Exodus never took place if there was no such person as Moses there was no law given on Mount Sinai would that invalidate your faith no not at all because I mean you know how do I know Abraham exists we don't there's no proof that Abraham exists until we find a grave saying here lies Abraham much miss me my loving wife Sarah we don't know what what the point is is is that what he stood for and the values and the ethics that's what's enduring so it's how you behave and and you know as I said what do you think what's important about what you think is what it leads you to do so in other words you're not just a a monotheists you're an ethical monotheists and almost your monotheism your belief in jesus thought whatever leads you to behave and act in a certain way and that's what's so crucial all right but what I'm still missing though is Scripture itself is cancer every destroying my telling you revive Scripture because scripture tells you to circumcise yourself to keep kosher and most Christians are not circumcised and don't keep kosher you know most Christians ignore Scripture they choose the bits they like which is what you're about to do and quote me there's certainly other verse but it's a very selective quote and by the way the other thing is and you should know this more than most is that actually Jews are not biblical Jews we don't follow the Bible exactly we are rabbinic Jews across the board right other words the Bible as reinterpreted by the by behind the rabbis and I get the sense obviously that in your tradition Jonathan obviously it's as much about the tradition about the things that are passed down in the rabbinic tradition as it is about having a particular view of Scripture or whether Abraham existed and whether the exodus took place as described and so on so for you these things are much more secondary to as it were the the ethos and the community that that you feel yes and which is we have a you know to our I mean I used to be the one of the judges for the sermon of the year that the times used to do for each of these I had to go the lots of churches in New York to listen to the the preachers and it was fascinating because by and large most of the Christian preachers didn't matter what denomination were were on about the same thing it's all about belief and faith and that's really really important Christian's I'd get that whereas the rabbi's didn't talk so much about that they talked about business ethics or how to deal with cancer or charity in other words there's much more hands-on and practical and I suppose this is one of the differences and which is why in a sense our arguments are non argument because we're on different tracks right now you're playing football I'm playing rugby and that's why I'm getting all ready in this is is you're almost because you're coming from such different positions it's it's almost difficult to have so I'm trying to put us on the same track though to understand something and of course it's it's fascinating that Christianity is the religion of good works around the world with hospitals and caring for the poor in other words the faith does transform and produces good works so we agree on that that if it doesn't produce an ethical life it's it's just talk and that's what's good about Christianity and and here we will agree and in fact there's a lovely saying which isn't a little bit tongue-in-cheek but I think sums up Judaism but to be a good Jew you don't have to believe in God you just have to do what he says right so was it get me home with it if the living okay what why is this not the way you can conceive either of Judaism or Christianity cuz the overwhelming testimony of Scripture that we all have to agree on is the fundamental existence of God and and God revealing himself as the God of gods at the Exodus and then and then speaking through Moses so if you say even if the Exodus didn't happen it wouldn't affect your faith then I say it's it's not faith in Scripture faith in God it's just a humanistic idea of of what God is and good living is we're not talking Messianic prophecy we're not talking about kosher laws anything like that but the fundamental the fundamentals and the the traditional rabbis as well they could not conceive of a religion that wasn't based in a God who acted the Talmudic rabbi certainly didn't conceive of well you can be a good Jew and not believe in God I mean that the central confession of the Shema everyday and the unity of God and all that central Judaism so what I'm hearing from you is much more of a 21st century humanism biblically-based faith putting aside even issues of the Messiah to say well the exodus didn't even have to happen and we don't even necessarily have to believe in God to be a good Jew I don't see that as having any commonality with fundamentals of Scripture that we would all have to agree on know that it sounds a bit tongue-in-cheek I mean obviously Judaism is based on the notion of God but even the rabbi's who you're quoting now from the tongueless said as far back as the second century that the righteous of all people have a place in the world to come in other words that yes it's important to be religious but is actually what what defines your religion is not believing in the right God or the right way of believing in God but how you behave and therefore for us the afterlife is not an exclusive happy hunting ground for Jews anyone can get there well it doesn't matter what you call God it's how you how you live out your godly life and for you obviously Michael Jesus it plays the unique part in salvation as far as you're concerned yeah absolutely simply because as human beings we all fall short we know our flaws we see them the murderous terrible nature we see good and bad in in in human beings and and we see our even at our best days we may have a you may be selfish we may fail to love God with all of our heart you may fail to love our neighbors or self and then they're the sins that we do commit so we God always have an atonement system for Israel there was always repentance and then there's always substitution that the god of this mercy was going to provide a sacrifice to take our place then without repentance it's meaningless without turning to God and sincere repentance it's just just words so Ghana this mercy really reaches down among us and says I'm not just going to let you go your own way I'm gonna pay for your sins the Jewish tradition the death of the righteous atones for the for the sins of the generation so Jesus is the Messiah the ultimate righteous Jew takes on on his shoulders our sins our iniquities that as I could show in messianic prophecy and when we turn to God asking for mercy he says this is my means for mercy in other words sin has to be paid for but I'll I'll pay for it for you so I can have mercy so when you return repentance I can be both just and merciful I mean we're gonna I think we must try and talk about the the weather Jesus did fulfill Messianic prophecy and and what that means for each of you obviously I appreciate that the first half of this conversation has really been just about defining the very different ways you both approach Scripture your faith and everything else but will will come to the the nuts and bolts of of the question that we've got in front of us in a short moment was Jesus the Jewish Messiah for more conversations between Christians and skeptics subscribe to the unbelievable podcast and for more updates and bonus content sign up to the unbelievable newsletter we're talking today offers it here Michael the the the question that I wanted us to get to it was is Jesus the Jewish Messiah so perhaps we could start with yourself Michael explaining what commits you back when you were a teenager and what convinces you today Jesus really has fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament of course there's even the question Reform Judaism what is belief in a messiah in a Messianic era or Epirus and a messianic people or a specific Messiah but for me I first came to believe that that Jesus was my Savior and died for me I didn't have enough Jewish background to really look at scriptures so then as I began to be challenged on the issues began to look at scripture even more and became convinced that that really there were two aspects of the Messiah's work that there was one where he would come in our midst in a very real way God identifying with us and would suffer and die for us and rise from the dead before the second temple was destroyed the message would then spread throughout the entire world and then at the end of the age he would return and establish his kingdom on the earth and do many of the things that traditional Jews expect him to do so to me there is clear scriptural testimony of something monumental that had to happen before the Second Temple was destroyed and that it's clear that our people as a nation would would reject this one would not understand his mission that he would become a light to the Gentiles and only at the end of that would there be a mass recognition with him among our people Israel so I do you believe that is still yet to come then that yeah I believe there will be a one day a mass recognition why is the missile absolutely so I'm always heartened by the fact that there are probably several hundred and Jewish believers in Jesus on the planet today but no I expected even among the most religious and Orthodox that eyes will be opened and not they will not discover Jesus Christ the god of Christianity in some foreign way but but Jesus the divine Messiah right within Judaism that they'll recover him as one of their own they'll recognize that many of the traditions of a suffering Messiah are really fulfilled in him they'll recognize that some of the mystical aspects of their faith and God whose transcendent yet draws near or fulfilled in him and I think if we can get some of the later theological baggage off not that it's all erroneous or even mostly erroneous but just it so takes Jesus outside of where he originally was rabbi Yeshua we come to Jonah said on that I mean do you believe as it were we're on a sort of timetable for seeing that as it were I know many people do see events like the creation of the State of Israel is as significant in terms of Biblical prophecy and so on well I'm not one of those that's that's looking to set dates or anything like that and there's so much mystery and in the way God works but I do see Scripture that presupposes that our people will be back in the land at the end of the age those would be a Jewish Jerusalem which is a center of controversy for the whole world that the Prophet spoke of so I just see us that more things are in place as to when things will simply unfold I can't say but I do know that even within Israel there's more and more openness to Jesus being the Messiah there's more and more recognition that he's one of us and and just on the way over here I just started jotting down names we had famous rabbi like Jacob Endon in 1757 who wrote about Jesus being one of us who did not come to a to abolish the law of the prophets and then from Joseph Claussen and York s Co Kaufman and Albert Einstein and Martin Buber and gays of our nation and others reform rabbis like Abraham Geiger and Kaufman call or color or Pincus l'épée David's loose in modern Israeli scholars all of whom had an appreciation of Jesus the Jew some who believed that he was a great teacher or a luminary different way so I'm saying just take it a step further he wasn't just a great teacher he wasn't just a luminary he came as Messiah and if we can if we can discover him as one of our own and not coming to start a brand-new foreign religion but rather coming to fulfill what's written in Moses and the prophets I think that's the first major step to getting us in the right direction before we talk about who you think Jesus was what do you make of Michaels view that there will one day be a sort of a revelation and opening of the eyes of the Jewish people to the Messiahship of of Christ well he's happy being a Messianic Jew then great I've got no problem with that and it's just not for me and frankly it's not for most Jews and also if you're talking about time scales I mean we've been waiting for what 2,000 years that's a heck of a long time so if I and the whole third point about Biblical prophecy was you know if I tell you the world's going to come to an end in the year 5072 you'll think also what you know I'm gonna be gone within 280 years let alone 3,000 it doesn't really make any difference a whole point to prophecy is to tell people what's gonna happen either this year or next year because then you can really do something about it then you can repent you can mend your ways you can build walls around the oceans goodness knows what you know so the whole point of Biblical prophecy was to here-and-now telling people that something's going to happen in two thousand years well big deal and similarly for us you know if something was going to happen it should have happened right in the year what what do you make of that argument it's been too long for your prophecies it's quite the opposite it's quite the opposite because traditional Jews have been waiting longer and traditional Julius and we claim the idea of Messiah goes all the way back to the beginning so traditional Jews would be saying that you know we'd say hasn't come yet where did you say it has no way no no I'm saying the first part we already have the first part in the down payment so we have great confidence in the rest words you don't even have the first part of the down payment so so you've been waiting a lawyer with nothing we we have the deposit down payment plus the message spreading throughout throughout the entire world just as a prophecies being fulfilled every day in that respect well you know actually I've got a problem now because for me to counter that means debunking you well you know as I say in a sense I want to you know this is where we have those frank discussions so don't feel that you're in any way being rude by by doing that and my control is perfectly used to to that kind of thing and I mean this leads us I think to the core of the issue which is what why don't you feel your that Jesus did fulfill Messianic prophecy and and who was Jesus in that case as far as Jenkinson let me tell you my view we trying to leave quite strongly as the the Jewish view and his Orthodox or reform which is that Jesus certainly existed he was a great teacher clearly he was a great preacher clearly um . that's it and you know not son of god not divine was he a rabbi as sort of your itinerary it could have been part of the Pharisaic tradition that was going along and yes michael quoted some names of people who were accepting him more but that weren't accepting as messiah they were accepting him as as as someone who existed within the Ramban and you know was romania and and and so forth and the reason why I and Jews throughout last 2000 years didn't accept Messiah Jesus it's because for our point of view he just failed the litmus test it was only one test which is to bring peace to the world and just look around look at the news and the papers and we're not we're not there doesn't mean to say we have to give up we can all work towards it but he just failed the test and it's not and you know this is not a modernist view look at the Acts of the Apostles chapter 5 from a vine come kneel when people run to him and say look there's this guy Jesus claimed to be the Messiah what do we do just calm down you know if he is the Messiah great you know great that's what we want and if he isn't well so what it'll Peter out Peter and we don't have this idea of heresy and it's a heretic or to claim to be the Messiah because there were dozens of people who've claimed to be the Messiah and they were wrong and you know we should have been right but so really and by the way we talk much much more about the messianic age who it's the ear of the robbing / than the person who's going to assume this idea then from your perspective Jonathan of what you are awaiting in terms of this messianic age what will be the marker that the Messiah or the Messianic age has come well I mean humanity clearly flawed because you know we messed things up in our personal lives in our social lives internationalized and so forth so really the idea of a messianic age is that we can actually get together and just do the decent things and peace and harmony it's as simple as that and we won't know those moments where you know for half an hour the family roots together or the country comes together or whatever and and it would be nice to make that half an hour not just half an hour but a day a week a year and so forth we know it's possible but it doesn't happen because people are flawed and therefore it's not a matter of waiting for some external intervention we've all got a role in bringing that just by kinda nicer spreading the gospel a few like of good relations so it sounds as though you're even that invested in a person being involved no in this in a messiah and we Judaism at large has largely talked about that messing any time it's an era so it's the peace that counts not the person who brings it in and also we don't have this eminent sense you know it might happen next year it might well happen in two thousand years we don't it's just the working towards it in other words that we progress towards a better version of today yeah you know it's fascinating those is you basically said that the Messianic prophecies are speaking about a future error you said that prophecies are just to tell us what to do today or tomorrow well they're for that as well as to tell us of a future age but it's it's fascinating that the maimana day in confession which is fundamental to the Jewish tradition confess his belief in the Messiah I believe in the the coming of the Messiah that's the semantic error but but the coming of the Messiah but again I'll quote Maimonides without also saying that he did not believe it Jesus do you can't quote but actually he would be dead against you know he was after this studio long ago no no we understand that his home our theme and where he deals with Jesus I fully understood my point is when you said Jews focus more on the Messianic era I take issue with that I would say that the Jews who are the most serious I juice today Jews today who so again you're looking more reformed I'm looking more at Orthodox because they're they're they're confessing coming of Messiah looking for that on a daily basis but what comes back once more is to me this is more of a humanism than a Judaism which is why we'd have a difference if there was an Orthodox Jew across the table also be less likely that there be an Orthodox peer across they would say the same thing about not accepting Jesus my very own his vision is on the son of course he would also not accept us but those who say Jesus have not fulfilled that the Jewish vision right right but that the the 20th century was the bloodiest century in human history more and more people slaughtered more manifestation of human evil I don't have hope and human beings just getting together better I work for it every day and I strive to cross lines and be a peacemaker in the midst of my very strong beliefs and and to love my neighbor no matter who that neighbor is and to cultivate that etc but I don't have faith that we're gonna come together we need in our own power right we need divine intervention hence a messiah and this idea of things petering out they haven't petered out they're more than 2 billion people around the planet who at least outwardly so kamehame lleol sort of advice as far as you can see has actually shown that Jesus was who he said he was the way Christianity is and remember they're there there are scriptures passages that speak of the servant of the Lord being rejected by his own people and yet being a light to the nation's and and how the Messiah will not stop in his mission until these things are fulfilled so it's the persevering over a period of time what do you make of that particular interpretation of those masonic passages that actually it was always prophesied anyway that his own people would not accept him and so on you know frankly if God was gonna send his son to the world you know what a failure I mean what happened he got crucified it didn't get through 50 he wasn't accepted by most of the Jews of his own time your gun Leo didn't accept Jesus Jesus did it was accepted largely in the pagan Roman era Empire and you know if I was gonna save the world I try and do it now not wait for 2,000 years I mean Jesus okay if you want to say he rose from the dead I don't believe it but you can and then what's the big deal of rising from the dead and disappearing how effectively is dead and he has been dead for 2,000 years either he lived for three days so what I mean what what did that achieve so here I'm having to go on the attack just because I feel that what you're you see what I object to is why don't you go and work for the United Nations why don't you try and make lives better why are you so obsessed with beliefs you know on the Hindus good aren't the Confucians good aren't the builders good aren't the Muslims good and and they're doing their own life the source and improve the plan what does it matter what they call God what or and why are you sort of dismissing saying look there's a supermarket of religions yes and we can go up and down the supermarket why are you saying there's only one product my God's only gonna be worshipped in one way why are you being so almost arrogant and not humble enough to accept there are different paths to God yeah and by the way God hasn't struck down dead all the Muslims of the Hindus will seat for the confusion he's quite happy with them why don't you be happy with it yeah it seems to me the ever front you have a fundamental arrogance against the god of scripture who told the Jewish people you can only worship me this way otherwise it's unacceptable and I will judge you for it you're saying no no no however its long as you're a good person it's almost if you're saying what the God of the Bible says it's really not sufficient I'm just talking about within Torah itself as for good works I can almost guarantee you that the folks that we've ministered to that are part of our ministry school and graduated around the world are doing more good works than your entire congregation put together serving the poor carry laying down their lives for the needy around the world sacrifice themselves to teach Muslims and poor neighborhoods to adopt dying babies in the Philippines to to go into tribal regions in India where no one's gone and get the people better food and water well done because that's a natural extension of what the Messiah is done when the whole thing is it wasn't a matter of him just coming and zapping the world rather he came and said I'm gonna suffer this is the love of God I'm gonna suffer for what you've done and now change you so you can go and be world changers and that's what we continue to do so it didn't Mohammed also did that didn't confucius do that didn't do that his religion a doing God's work and Mohammed spread his religion by the sword he began as a spiritual leader then apply Moses and Joshua spreading the religion by the sword by the way well no they didn't spread their religion they drove out the Canaanites okay but but Islam grew he was first a spiritual leader Mohammed was then a political leader then a warrior anything Muslims are or not loved by God deeply loved by God God sent the Saviour for that they have a place in the world to come that's God's business but I believe they need Jesus and what Oh why because we all sin we all fall short and this is God's means of forgiving us just like there was a sacrificial system in ancient Israel you can use a song I base it on the doesn't mentioned in the Old Testament the Hebrew Bible he's only mentioned in the New Testament isn't he no he's prophesied clearly mine any scriptures well sure Yeshua sure the the the high priest your host Xu is also Yeshua and he's put as a type in sign of the Messiah in in Zechariah the sixth chapter the high priest yahushua by the Nate who's twenty seven times roughly twenty seven times called no question one verse out of millions of verses that's a little bit rich isn't it well it's not millions of verses but in point in point of fact where does it say he has to be specifically named he's described Julia's Jewish tradition says speculates many different things his name is this his name is this but he's described he's described what has to happen before the Second Temple was destroyed but but let me ask this if Jesus did rise from the dead then God had to raise him he couldn't raise himself you say if he did fine but if he did that mean something yeah but all that all the religions have got their own miracles and Muhammad left from Mecca to Jerusalem I'm gonna leave it happened though oh why why there's that there's no evidence for it where's your evidence for Jesus with your physical evidence well first you know a not gonna quote the New Testament on you cuz because that is not that's out of order the New Testaments written by Christians it's like you know who wrote Quran and Islamic tradition yeah exactly to all religions in inevitably are written by the followers it's like st. Jeremy cordon leave Jeremy Corbyn is God because I've read a book by John McDonald saying is God well that's bias that's it you've got to quote external sources verification right right so the first thing is that the best explanation for the ongoing early faith in Jesus as Messiah is his resurrection various historians looking at that it's what it's the awesomes around okay the second thing is ongoing miracles that take place around the world in Jesus name just as you said what happened from you know sick being healed and dead being raised this will quote their miracles why are you being so exclusive why not say there are many poles to God and it actually doesn't matter which one you take as long as you get there in the end and no matter which side of the mountain you go up to but as long as you reach the summit that's what's important can you guarantee that a Muslim living the way of Muslims living in a Sikh Hindu all the different ones are a good a nice angle right there no I assumed you'd say that but can you guarantee sitting there is a human being that they all have a place in the world to come can you guarantee there is a world to come though no but nor can you no one's ever sent a postcard back they okay so I want to do my best to warn of danger and to show a path of salvation based on the radical change of life I've had in hundreds of billions of trees that the Christianity or whatever it is helped you but really is truly wonderful and I'm not just saying that I actually mean it your story is moving and there's many people who don't get helped and an end up literally in the drain and and I buried a normal ously so that's wonderful but that doesn't mean to say that your version of God is is fit for everybody else it's fit for you wonderful great not necessarily fit for everyone else but who gives you the right to make that determination because I'm letting people decide and saying that actually their faith and their vision of God if I could come in a microsite here it does the danger you run in saying that is you're saying well Michael you're terribly intolerant because you believe you only you have the right truth but aren't you equally saying well I have the right trees which is they're all paths lead to God well I'm trying to be a little bit more open to God and but you also have a view of what the truth of the matter is don't you I mean was ID saying that Judaism is right for me and I'm comfortable in it a friend of mine converted to Christianity we're all thinking of converting and said should I or should I not and I said look the important thing is to find a religious home so if do you need ISM isn't your home for whatever reason and you want to convert to Christianity then great so I've got no problem I haven't got this will religious one-upmanship of might religions better than your religion or thou shalt go down this path all I'm just saying is there are many paths to God and that's the Jewish but that in a sense is your truth claim there are no Jewish view to God you don't have to be Jewish to get to heaven right so so then you'd also be saying that caranas is wrong because the Quran for example denies the Trinity explicitly mama didn't rightly understand Trinity but explicitly denies that and and Muslims religious Muslims want everyone to believe in Islam and believe that Christians will ultimately turn and Jews will be destroyed it etc so you're saying that that a religious Muslim let's say hundreds of millions of very devout Muslims they're wrong because they believe their faith is the only way and and hundreds of billions of Christians who believe their faith is on the way they're wrong so your your openness to all these different faiths is explicitly saying well actually I'm wrong actually hundreds of millions of other Christians are wrong hundreds of millions of Muslims are wrong so what seems like broad-mindedness is actually extreme intolerance towards those that that say our faith is the way you know it's very interesting because what you've actually touched on is is a fundamental difference that is not the one that perhaps we've started off with and let me give you a very short story I went to a conference of Jews Christians and Muslims and we were all in our different groups we interacted and put me in polite when we went for lunch I expected all the Jews and the Christians and the Muslims sit on their three tables what happened was actually everyone divided into two sections all the Orthodox liberal Orthodox Jews Christians and Muslims on one table because they spoke the same language I'm right they're wrong and all the liberal Christians and Muslims and so in other words yes what I am saying is the people who are fundamentalist whether it's fundamentalist Christian fundamentalism are barking up the wrong tree because they're insisting their version is the only version where as I'm saying and this really is the Jewish view not my modern view that there aren't many paths to God do you think that is the Jewish view that there are many paths to God I think it's overstated for example the idea that the righteous of the world to come and the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come would understand that for example the righteous persons on an idol worshiper so therefore there would be aspects of Hinduism whether it's polytheism and its bowing down to wooden stone statues and things like that that would be considered to be wrong that that the seven laws of Noah a certain fundamental principles and even belief in one God would be required so I would say it's an overstatement of of the Jewish view but again the we've come back to the place where our starting which is the fundamental differences and it's not to condemn your view or to look down on it it's simply say these are fundamentally different ways of reactor and through our institutions are out they there's been this this massive just difference in the way you both approach to hold the whole thing from about to finish but one thing we haven't quite got to with which I think he's where at least one area where Jonathan does land a big question for you when he when it comes to your belief in Jesus as the Messiah is what we clearly don't live in the Masonic age look at all the warfare and so on Jesus obviously did not bring the promised Messiah age therefore it's perfectly natural to believe Jesus he's not the Messiah so what's your response to that because 2,000 years on from his coming even though you believe he will come again and bring that that era at least we don't live in the era of peace and therefore a Jew like like Jonathan is going to say well he wasn't the Messiah then yes so number one according to Scripture everything's right on schedule and if I just didn't come and do what he did before the second temple was destroyed then we have no way of thinking that he'll come and do the rest the problem is that Judaism ultimately developed an idea that the Messiah will come and you say XYZ without realizing he first had to do ABC so we agree on the XYZ but I say the scripture indicates first ABC first the suffering first the dying first God identifying with us first God giving us a way for the whole world to come to know the one true God and then at the end of that and through this good news going through the Gentile and Jewish world then he comes to establish this kingdom and it gives us some examples of the the kinds of prophecies you would use the establish that Jesus is the the ABC if you like that that kind of God suffering for his people keep making a door wait for all be sure in Daniel 9 they're prophetic words about things that had to happen before the destruction of the second temple if the second temple would be rebuilt and then destroyed and within that time atonement would be made in righteousness brought in for the for the people of Israel that there'd be a divine visitation at the temple in Malachi 3 or that Haggai to the glory of the Second Temple would be greater than the glory of the first and yet it didn't have the Shekinah didn't have the presence of God and the fire and all these other things how was it greater I look at passages like Isaiah 42 and 49 which speak of this servant of the Lord distinguished from Israel who who to fail in his mission to Israel and yet be a light to the nations and yet will persevere until the job is done and then the end of Isaiah 52 beginning in verse 13 saying that he'll be highly exalted but first suffer terribly and then the confession of Israel in the 53rd chapter that we thought he was dying for his sins in fact he was dying for our sins and it's the cost of his wounds that were healed Zechariah 12 the the the people of Judah and Jerusalem looking to the one they've pierced in and mourning over that the morning is the recognizing what you recognize that these as far as you're concerned apply to Jesus Christ why don't more Jews recognize that if it's apparent to you Michael well in all candor if you have a view of the Messiah being something totally different which I fully understand because there are clear prophecies about the Messianic era and the king ruling and reigning and all of this that if you're looking for that then this doesn't fit the bill just interest in your response before we go to our final break - to these particular kinds of ways of looking at those verses which Michael obviously please do justify the idea that Jesus well definitely cold and there's like the ones about you know Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey and you know Messiah Lord Jesus did that or being born in Bethlehem and Jesus did that but then millions of people are born in Bethlehem and went to Jerusalem on a donkey so they just leave me cold they just don't prove anything and they certainly don't prove the key question of is is the world a better place is the world at peace and and has Jesus done it well he had certainly advanced things and no doubt about it we're better off for Christianity but but the world still lacks a messiah so let's work the Messiah and the fact that in fact that I don't accept Jesus as Messiah doesn't mean say I'm anti-christian it just means it didn't doesn't do it for me doesn't do it the Jews it doesn't do it for millions of other people it's not wrong it helps and we're thankful for the role that Christianity has played although of course one has to say it's also play some nasty roles whether it's Crusaders and when questions or even today with sort of Catholic priests and pedophilia or or the postman on contraception you know there's a lot of things not quite right with Christianity so it's got lots of pluses and lots of minuses and we're not in the main world and therefore the not yet come we will see what Mike has to say in response after a short break you're listening to a wide-ranging discussion today with that the core of it the question was Jesus the Jewish Messiah if you listen to unbelievable Justin Brierly on premier Christian radio and enjoy the conversations between Christians and skeptics then this is the perfect app for you for the latest updates podcasts videos articles bonus content and much more download premier unbeliever wah today [Music] it's been a really interesting discussion today because I have a feeling the story you told of the way that the the fundamentalist of any religion if you like all those who may be described as evangelical never tend to group together and the Liberals all group together and in a way it's been more a debate between someone who is evangelical and liberal when it comes to the way you approach religion generally on today's program as much as it has been about this question about whether Jesus was the Jewish Messiah but we kind of finished that last section with essentially Jonathan's saying to you Michael look lots of prophecies that didn't you know Jesus rode into on a donkey born in Bethel there were thousands of people it's all a bit tendentious as far as he's concerned this idea of putting Jesus into these specific prophecies and so yeah that's that's why I quoted other prophecies because interestingly enough these are not ones you can just throw out who is the best-known Jew in the entire planet Jesus Yeshua who is the Jew that's brought more people to worship the God of the Hebrew Bible than anyone in history Jesus the Messiah who's the one that was rejected by his people yet become a light to the nation's Jesus the Messiah and and I think perhaps if my colleague would just consider this angle that you keep talking about the world being a better place and think okay well the Jew that's changed the most lives and helped the most people turn to God yeah of course with sin and junk in church history we fully acknowledge that but transformation of lives one of my friends in India within current incredible ministry with orphans and the needy and handicapped in just hospitals and unbelievable work there he was basically a terrorist when Jesus appeared to him a Naxalite violent communist terrorist when Jesus appeared to him I was just with a Muslim man who was a jihadist what sort to kill Jews before Egyptian and before Jesus appeared to him he was changed so look at that aspect of the Messianic work that he's doing messianic work by changing lives in that those lives ultimately are the very thing you're looking for yeah so I mean that's great and I don't want to you know can disagree with that at all except I was speaking to an imam the other day who was talking about how Islam had helped so many young people in Britain and how people who were in gangs and wearing drugs had now actually studied the Quran and come to Islam and we're now leading very sort of pious lives and were family members so so you know it's not just Christianity that can change lives other religions can and so you know all credit to all religions that do that and I don't think in that sense you don't find when you look around your congregation your synagogue people somehow with a missing part of their lives waiting for the true Messiah to step in and fulfill themselves you you don't find you need Jesus in that sense in you know in your globe because we have a faith I mean in a sense Michael be better off and sort of targeting people without a faith rather than targeting people who've already got a faith whether they be Jew Christian Muslim or whatever I mean you could say that today much more important than religious differences is religious indifference and people have got no set of values and no moral code and those are the people perhaps who would need religion or whether it's Islam or Christianity or Judaism not much more so I wouldn't I would see it as a religious theft to try and change somebody else who's already got her rooted in a faith but if you can find a lost soul then then and help them in whatever way then all credit to you what do you make of that sort of view that you shouldn't bother trying to change someone else's religion rather bring God to people who don't have well first we target everyone we seek to reach everyone but because I know so many former Muslims and former Hindus and former Buddhists and even former religious traditional Jews that talk about how their life is so wonderfully transformed frankly spit mushy because I've got people who converted to Judaism my congregation some of whom were atheist some of whom were Christian so we cannot tell you I'm not but here's my point I'm not saying this is a proof of my faith I'm saying because so many people around the world from these different faiths are so thankful that we came and brought the message to them and talk about transformation of life in an intimacy with God and a knowledge of God and and an forgiveness of sins they never experienced radio he said for me too me too me too last night and said watch out you're going to be speaking with my with Michael tomorrow but he's wrong you know what don't told me you're wrong okay I'm not saying that and I wouldn't dream to speak for God in the way that you do and I'm I'm I'm I'm very happy for people religious there's no need for them to be either Jewish or Christian let's celebrate what we have in common let's not try and Rob Souls but you're telling me that I'm wrong in my beliefs sir no I think you're every right to believe what you believe personally it makes no sense to me whatsoever and everything you've said to me over the last hour it's very nice for you but doesn't make wash from me at all right so the question is ultimately is there absolute truth and if we come back to a simple question if Jesus did if God raised Jesus from the dead to confirm that he was the Messiah of Israel would that mean anything to you I would think what a waste why did you do it for three days why didn't you actually bring him back and let him go around the whole of Galilee the whole of Jerusalem and actually preach to thousands not just be seen by Mary Magdalene and a couple of others what use was that first a wasted opportunity we see it first he was seen by hundreds over a period of 40 days but the bigger thing is though that he connected the whole of Israel convert overnight know if you were going to wait for Paul to your lip and something on account if you were because God didn't do it you're away it can't be God's Way it's still a simple question so you would basically tell God I'm not impressed I'm not impressed with how you did things look God God brings what if it do tour anything over there for three days honestly I mean you can talk about the good words to mother Teresa getting lives to this day he lives to this day through his mind no not not nor my it's not in our mind that sick bodies are healed and in our mind that even people who are dead or raised from the dead to this day it's that God is continuing to demonstrate that jesus is alive through signs and wonders that basically because you haven't seen you discount could that be anything that might ever make you consider Christianity I remember lyonell blue once said another famous media rabbi that he he he with Christianity in his student days having been raised from a Jewish background obviously didn't convert is it it might not be Michael but would could anything because sort of persuade you what would it take to make you believe that actually Jesus was the the promised Messiah well it's not a competition so number one I'm not into that mindset and vine right he's wrong and I'm only disagreeing because I'm very happy as I am we do set this up as an opposition yes I think so that we haven't talked about all the things we have in common but I'm happy as I am it will be arrogant of me to rule out to change in the future because who knows what's going to happen but I see no reason for me to change and not what I want to be in the business of changing other people as you very explicitly stated you and you're not interested in in conversion it to me it's getting to God and and the route is just the detail what would it take to convince you that you're wrong about Jesus Michael yeah and let me first say I respect the fact that we were sitting here oppositional II that we have much in common and and I I appreciate the again at Arianism of your views and and what for you is a great openness obviously to me it you know we we have these deep fundamental differences but somehow God would have to explain to me what's happened over the last 46 years that it actually wasn't him that I was being deceived that everything I've studied in Scripture all of these years is not true and that somehow the same confirming experience that's been had by so many around the world and the that that none of the that somehow this was all just a deception to me if everything that I believed in hell to these last 46 years has been just either my own mind there's some type of deception misleading then it would make me question everything it always makes me question the existence of God the truth of Scripture wouldn't just be I'd say oh I can throw out Jesus and still have gone in traditional Judaism so I don't I don't understand what could happen that could change my view that would have to be God himself interacting and they said it's wrong to even use the word deception because I think God reveals himself to people in different ways so he's not deceiving you or me it doesn't even if it's a neutral contradictory that he reveals himself to you and says black is black and he reveals himself to me and says black is blue that you see that's the problem about God we can't define God with God what's funny we can put in our pocket because once we define God and say God is this or God is that then we're owning God and then we're becoming more powerful in God and that's why we have to accept that different people have different visions of God one day we'll find out which one is right but maybe they're all right and if it's ours that's right would you be happy in the end I think God is bigger than you or me so I think actually good that's the whole point there is a God and it really doesn't matter which way we worship Him in some Greek Latin Hebrew or Arabic we're gonna leave it there thank you very much it's been a really interesting discussion and debate between you both obviously coming down in very different positions in all kinds of different ways but it's been really interesting to be in the middle here and what you both go at it so thank you very much Jonathan thank you very much Michael we've got a shaking of patterns as well between between the two guests here thank you for being with us here on the show as well if you want to get in touch I'll be giving you the ways to do that in just a moment's time and just a reminder that for more on Michael Brown ask dr. Brown org is a good place to go Jonathan romaine heads up Maidenhead synagogue you can find them online and of course more about Jonathan himself - all the details available from today's website where you can listen back to today's show and share it on with friends at premier Christian radio.com / unbelievable for now Michael and Jonathan thank you for being with me on the show you

Channel: Unbelievable?

Views: 414,360

Rating: 4.6550517 out of 5

Keywords: unbelievable, justin brierley, premier christian radio, christianity, atheism, philosophy, faith, theology, rabbi jonathan romain, Michael Brown, messianic jew, messianic, judaism

Id: yfbkTnKi3Cc

Length: 62min 18sec (3738 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 12 2018