(upbeat music) - Hi, I'm Kyle Kittleson with MedCircle joined by the final word on narcissism, clinical psychologist Dr. Ramani, we're talking about a very popular topic, narcissistic abuse,
specifically the timeline that can often occur from the start to the end of such a vicious cycle. We talk about narcissistic abuse a lot but we don't really
dive into the short-term and long-term effects, that
the person can experience who, or that the person can have
when they experience this. Let's start with what
narcissistic looks like actually. - So narcissistic abuse
is maybe we could call it. It's a syndrome looking for a name. And in fact, I don't, you know how we said
we don't love the name, borderline personality disorder, I actually kind of don't love
the name, narcissistic abuse. It's what everyone's using. Another thing we could probably call this is antagonal relational abuse because I think that that uses language that's more diagnostically familiar. But whatever you call
it, this is a pattern and an experience a person has when they are in a relationship where they're with somebody
who has a high conflict, rigid, antagonistic, entitled, egocentric, dysregulated style. Okay? So that's the nice way of saying all that without saying the word narcissist. And so it's a relationship
that's characterized by dismissiveness, invalidation, manipulation like
gaslighting, minimization, lots of entitlement and
lots of dysregulated rage. It's just a really uncomfortable
space for a person. And over time, especially if a person doesn't understand what they're up against, because many people in these so-called narcissistic relationships,
blame themselves. They say, this is my fault, maybe I need to do what they're saying. Maybe I'm not being nice enough, I'm not being intimate enough,
I'm not being thin enough. I'm not being clean enough. I'm not being smart enough. I'm not being enough,
enough, whatever it is. And so the person exhausts themselves in an attempt to deliver on the impossible ask of
the narcissist, right? And over time, people who are
survivors of this experience have sort of a very specific
set of psychological symptoms. The most central symptoms we see in people who are experiencing narcissistic abuse are patterns like confusion,
diminished self-esteem, anxiety, some depressive
symptoms, including sadness, sometimes even anger and
irritability, lots of rumination. Can't stop thinking about it,
because they can't fix it. And helplessness, hopelessness
and powerlessness. The symptoms go on a lot wider than that. And in fact, I tend to
break the symptoms down into sort of six categories. There's all the, sort of the patterns associated with changes in thinking in a survivor of narcissistic abuse. They ruminate a lot. There's a lot of regret, again that helplessness, the confusion. Some of them get caught up in
this loop of perfectionism. "If I could only get it just right "then I'll win the narcissist over." There's a lot of interpersonal stuff. People going through narcissistic
abuse feel very lonely because they feel as
though nobody understands this sort of unique
circumstance they're in, because remember narcissists often show a very sunny face to the world. So a lot of times people think that you're the luckiest
person in the world to be in this relationship. They can also feel very socially isolated, as well as a lot of shame of, "How the heck did I get
myself into this experience?" There can be a lot of what I call symptoms of perception and arousal. They can be very hypervigilant always walking on
eggshells, always on edge. Am I gonna say the wrong thing? Am I gonna do the wrong thing? They can have difficulties
with concentration. There are the symptoms around what we call self and identity. So these are things like a
person has a lot of self doubt. There's a lot of self blame. There's a lot of self devaluation. Like I said, real
decrements in self-esteem. On the emotional front,
all that depression, the anxiety, apathy, low energy, grief. And then in the physical
and the health realm 'cause this does affect people's health. You'll see challenges with sleep. You'll see people will be reporting a lot more physical health issues. A lot of them are symptoms
of stress and tension, headaches, muscle tension, but it is a lot of chronic stress. So you can sometimes see
diminishments in immune function. So people may actually get sick more often or it might make the existing illness like diabetes, for example, the course of that maybe
become more problematic. People also don't take
good care of themselves when they're in these relationships, you're devaluing yourself so much. You may not take your
medications the right way, you may not exercise as much. You may not engage in a healthy diet. You may also use unhealthy coping, like using drugs and alcohol, smoking, spending money, things like that. And people with this pattern,
report a lot of fatigue. So you can see it takes
in a lot of territory. And by and large, in
the clients I work with who have this, or are
experiencing this syndrome, have symptoms in all
six of those categories. - You mentioned at the top of your answer that oftentimes people
who start to experience this narcissistic abuse,
will try to become the person that they believe will stop the abuse. So they will try to appease the abuser, which is futile, I assume. I believe that because I have
this education on narcissism, that once I saw the abuse, I would be able to cut ties and move away. What causes somebody though,
to experience the abuse and try to accommodate the abuser rather than experiencing
the abuse and moving away? - Right? So that's all comes down to
an experience that's unique to any kind of abusive relationship, including a narcissistic relationship called cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance
refers to our challenges with keeping two sorts
of opposing thoughts in our mind at the same time. And it's a dynamic that is
actually far worse for people, who've actually been histories of toxic or dysfunctional family
systems that they grew up in, or trauma and abuse in those settings. Because what cognitive dissonance is the most classical example
of cognitive dissonance is the one from Aesop's Fable where the Fox couldn't get the grapes. And what does the Fox
say about the grapes? He's jumping and jumping and the grapes are so big and so juicy. And so delicious looking,
Fox jumps, Fox jumps Fox can't get the grapes. What does the Fox then say? "Well, I bet those grapes
were sour anyhow, right?" So the Fox makes a justification for not being able to get the grapes, because he's just gonna walk
away from the beautiful grapes, and to make that more comfortable he had to tell himself
the grapes were sour. Now turn that story in the other direction for survivors of narcissistic abuse. "Person's abusing me,
person's invalidating, "person's manipulating
me, person is cruel to me. "Person is entitled,
person's yelling at me." Okay, you're right. All of that should be assigned to leave. "But this is my partner. "This is my family, right?" And so, especially if you learn to make those justifications as a kid, like you get a parent like this, "Well, daddy's just
angry, daddy's just tired. "Daddy had a hard day at work. "Mommy worked so hard. "Mommy's been cleaning all day." We justify, justify, justify, justification lets us stay
in the relationship, right? Because the idea of leaving it is actually feels too scary, especially again, and
it's this idea of staying in a abusive relationship
or a toxic relationship long past its shelf life
is called trauma bonding. So people in narcissistically
abusive relationships do tend to be trauma bonded and they have heavy cognitive dissonance. It's very difficult to
break away and either say, "I am going to stay with this
person who I know is abusive "and I'm staying, and
I know why I'm staying "'cause I'm saying for
money or kids or whatever "and I'm aware they're
gonna keep abusing me." That's a much more honest
depiction of what's happening. The biggest thing that
holds a lot of survivors of narcissistic abuse
back is lack of knowledge, which is the central work I do, which is to educate people on this. So for them to know, most centrally narcissistic patterns don't change. And number two, their
pattern is not your fault. And so, once you understand
those two things, like, "Oh this is never gonna change. "You're telling me when they retire, "it's not gonna change?" No. "When they get the promotion,
it's not gonna change?" Mm-mm (negative) "When we move is not gonna change?" Mm-mm-mm. "When the kids grow up?" No, nothing, never. - When you have a kid
it's not gonna change. - Nothing. Have a kid, don't have a kid, get married, don't get married. Retired, go on vacation. No, no, no, no. And that's something, I work with clients on called radical acceptance. It's not gonna change. So if you decide to stay,
I can get down with that, but you're not staying
in this dissonant state. You're not justifying
their behavior saying, "This person is really unhealthy
and awful and bad for me. "And I'm staying for
very practical reasons "because right now I don't
wanna dismantle this. "So that means I need to be in therapy. "I need to take care of myself. "I need to develop
healthier relationships. "I need to have realistic expectations." You see what I'm saying? That's it. It's like now you're staying,
but with your eyes wide open, rather than in this rather
blind, justifying space. - There are people who
just heard you say that and their hearts sunk to their foot. - I know. - They are clinging for the hope that this person will change. They believe if they work hard enough, if they read enough books,
if they watch enough videos, this person will change. They've heard of stories where a husband cheated on his wife, but then finally came to terms with it, and now they're happy. And they're the happiest
they've ever been. You're saying, no, stop, stop. - Stop, you can't. And people get mad, and I'll
be Frank with you, Kyle, some people live in that
dissonance space, all their lives. I'm sad for them because it's
sometimes a half of a life, but they're also potentially dangerous those people who stay dissonant because they keep spreading
the gospel of enabling. So, which is not, that's not okay because then they might tell someone else who's going through this. "Well, they are stressed "and you shouldn't be
so judgmental (mumbles)" So that's a lot of the dismantling. That's how that happens here. But that's how people get stuck. And that's how knowledge sets people free. And so to do realistic expectations. But Kyle, it's not that simple because some people go
through this process of radical acceptance and
they get it and they leave. And it's not all moonbeams
and rainbows and unicorns when they leave, there's grief, there's regret. There's anger, a time lost. There's the fact that
if they're co-parenting they still have to have relatively regular contact with this person. There's the idea of,
"Okay, I had to let go "of my narcissistic mother, so now what? "I don't have a family of origin. "I don't have that safe harbor." There's grief around that. This isn't as like walking
off into a bright future. Now don't get me wrong. Choosing between which is
healthier for you or not probably setting those boundaries. And it doesn't mean
you've cut the person off. You've written them a sort
of a dear John letter, and sent them on their way. It's not that, in some cases, it's that you've really erected some really strong, tall boundaries. You don't engage in the same way, you're much more careful
in your engagement. So it may mean you still get
to go to the family weddings and family get togethers, but with a much wise mind going into it. You're not then saying, "I don't understand why
mom's not interested in me." Like, "My mom's not interested
in me, it's all good. "I'm just here for my cousin's wedding." And so you're able to hear it, not with the sorrow of
a five-year-old child that's not being seen, but with the grace and the height of an adult who finally sees the situation clearly. - Well said. When narcissistic abuse starts initially, does that abuse look different than the abuse that may
occur down the line? - Oh, that's a great question, Kyle. So when we are talking about
intimate relationships, like staying in that space, 'cause that's a little bit more unique. You meet someone and
there's a whole process. The narcissistic relationship has a very unique architecture to it. It tends to start with a period that's popularly often
called love bombing. It's a period characterized
by idealization and seduction and winning someone over. And this can be grand gestures like 100 roses or something like that. This can be smaller gestures
just by being super empathic and super interested in your life. But, it's definitely sort of
romantic and overwhelming, that then pretty soon thereafter probably anywhere from eight to 12 weeks, if you're lucky sometimes
as little as six weeks, goes into something,
we called devaluation. It's no, the 100 dozen roses
aren't showing up anymore. In fact, it tends to be more,
a dismissiveness, contempt, more interested in their phone than you. You're like, everyone says this after
the first three months. "I want that person back." I'm like, honey, that
person never existed. So good luck with that. So, "I want that back, "I want those first three months back." And they will spend the next year or two waiting for the first three months, not realizing that was a short-term moment and then it's devaluation. And then in some point, in many cases it ends up in
what's called discarding. Now discarding doesn't
necessarily mean that they leave. Okay, and move away. Discarding can mean they do leave. Discarding can mean that you leave, okay. Discarding can also mean that they've really disengaged
from the relationship. It's no longer really a relationship. Discarding can mean that they
stay in the relationship, but they're unfaithful or something like that,
make different choices. And then if there's some form of discard and let's say either
you leave or they leave, somebody ends it, in a significant proportion
of cases, but not all, there's a period called hoovering. Where they will often suck you back in. And this will often happen as soon as people set
boundaries with a narcissist. So they're like, "This is going nowhere." So they cool off on the narcissist. They start cultivating their
own interests and all that. Then all of a sudden the narcissist sensing
that you're pulling away they try to suck you back in. Then that whole idealization starts again, and you can see how the cycle keeps playing out over and over again. In the early phases, the narcissistic abuse is a
bit more confusing, right? So people are actually,
you would think that well, they're new in it, won't
they spy it quicker? Not necessarily, because so many people are so wowed initially
by all that's happening and they want it to be what it is. So they start justifying. And then the difference is that early on, you're not so deep into it. So it doesn't feel like you're
sunk so much resource in it. The longer a person is
exposed to narcissistic abuse the more harmful it's effects. I do believe that it's cumulative that over time a person gets much more riddled
with the self-doubt. With the confusion, the self
devaluation, the isolation, they pull themselves
out of their own lives. They pull themselves out
of their own aspirations. It almost creates a sort of what we call a lifelong dysphoria, like this sort of sad kind of, it's not quite depression,
dysphoria is something more, it's like a far
overreaching kind of sadness that hunts into every
corner of someone's life. That's what happens to
the long-term survivor of narcissistic abuse. And I've seen it many times in clients and it's devastating. - I get a lot of emails,
not as many as you from people who are in
these abusive relationships, they feel alone. They feel like they're
the only one in the world that this is happening to. I'm telling you, you are not alone. There are many people
out there going through something similar that
you're going through. Can you share Dr. Ramani, any stories from your past or clients you've worked with, who
have really succeeded on coming out of that relationship, working on themselves
and moving into a life that is really for and about them rather than a life that was
for and about somebody else? - Oh, numerous, numerous,
numerous stories. I think there's a tremendous,
tremendous likelihood of not only good survivorship,
but thriver-shift after this all happens. But it means making changes and mental shifts at a Herculean level. It means leaving an old life behind, an old set of narratives
and an old set of beliefs. And that is not easy. The most challenging part of
dismantling narcissistic abuse, it's not often about dismantling
that primary relationship. Let's say somebody leaving
a narcissistic marriage, you then start looking around saying, "Oh my gosh I was surrounded by people "who were invalidating me,
enabling this nonsense. "I was letting this happen." And as you clear off
the dust, you're like, it's almost like mold in a house. You don't have mold in just one corner that has overtaking your house. And it is a hatchet job to
get it out of every corner of your house, to make it
safe for you to live there. And so, but what I will
tell you after that what I see Kyle is, and I do workshops on this for survivors, is that there is a new
life they step into where, it's like, if you've ever watched a cat, you know animals better than anyone. If you watch a cat step on a surface, they're not sure if it's
gonna be safe underneath. Like I see this with
my cat on my comforter. Very. Is that gonna hold? Is that gonna hold? Is that gonna hold? That sort of the cat on comforter feel of a person who just comes
out of narcissistic abuse, survivorship, they're
just like mm, mm, mm. And they're like, "Oh, it's holding. "Oh, I can go back to school. "Oh, wait, I can write this blog." Or, "I can laugh out
loud at this TV show." Or, "I can cook foods with garlic." Or, "I can put the thermostat at 75." Then they're like, "Which
means I can start being me." And they introduce
themselves to themselves sometimes for the first time in 50 years. When I do, I have all program,
I make them go through they get acquainted with themselves again. And when that happens,
they're like, "I'm all in." And some of them actually
do survivorship work, some go back and become
therapists and coaches. So they can actually work with survivors. They write about it. They make art, they go back to school. I've known people to go and
start multiple businesses. I've known people to go back
to graduate school at 70. I mean, it's pretty remarkable what people do with the gift of life being given back to them. Are some people riddled with regret? Yes. Others will say, "Maybe I wasn't gonna
learn how strong I was "until I really went 15
rounds with this person." And they did, and they
came out, but it is a, some of them fall in love again which is remarkable after what
they've just been through. They have love stories,
and it's beautiful. I mean, I'm gonna tell you, I've heard just as many beautiful stories
as I've heard tragic ones. And so I think there's
tremendous potential for not only growth, but I actually think that people who survive narcissistic abuse are the most interesting
people in the room. And we all identify each other. If we walk into a crowded room, you can see it, there's
something in our eyes and we catch each other. And it's like one of those
M. Night Shyamalan films where like we could see dead people. I can see survivors. And you see each other, and there's almost like a
knowing node across the room. You get it. - Fantastic. I see you survivors as well. And if you feel comfortable
sharing a comment below, saying that you are a
survivor and you are surviving and or thriving today,
I would appreciate it. And I know many others would as well, because sometimes those survivors don't say they are a survivor, and you guys are out there and it will certainly inspire others to see that you are doing so well. So thank you for being
brave and sharing that. Dr. Ramani, great session as always. Wonderful, thank you for
sharing your insight. We're gonna have more from Dr. Ramani and our other MedCircle doctors tonight. If you'd like to join us live use the links below to do that. If you can't join us live, would like a replay of tonight's panel, still sign up, we will send
you the replay of course, you can learn more about Dr.
Ramani at watch.medcircle.com. I'm Kyle Kittleson. Remember, whatever you're
going through, you got this. (upbeat music)
