The Disturbing Case of Daniel Marsh

every time I look at someone I see flashes of images of me killing them and numerous ways and numerous horrible ways doing terrible things I can't help it it's just what comes into my head when I see them I want to hurt people I want to kill people but I don't want to want that so how would you kill me choking you to death with your tie beating your face into the mirror until it broke it's masing your face into the wall nothing personal when he was just 12 years old Daniel Marsh was publicly recognized for saving his father's life after he suffered a medical emergency while driving but just a few years later Daniel had morphed into someone who no longer bore the slightest resemblance to that young hero while he had a troubled childhood and faced teenage struggles no one caught a hint of the Dark Intent harbored within that is until it was too late late Daniel would ultimately score higher than dmer and gasy on the psychopathy scale but even that might not explain the sheer depravity of his actions I felt scream bone a few times bleeding everywhere it was like Garling and stuff years later police and professionals alike are still trying to understand exactly what went so wrong to drive a 15-year-old to commit a crime so gruesome and disturbingly well executed that he Almost Got Away With It perhaps even more shocking is the prospect that in less than two decades he may freely roam the streets once again the majority of the following interview footage has never been released to the public and our exclusive interviews with the victim's family in correspondence with the killer has never been seen before it's been analyzed by a qualified team including a licensed professional counselor a licensed attorney and a former detective former licensed polygraph examiner and former hostage negotiation commander and instructor okay uh get your name Dan Marsh is that full name oh Daniel William Marsh okay even though Daniel is a minor he's being interviewed alone it's mentioned later in the interview that his mother is waiting elsewhere in the facility so the police potentially have her consent to conduct a solo interview in California a child May wave Miranda rights thus enabling a legal interrogation but two conditions must be met the waiver must be voluntary and the child age 17 or under must have actually consulted with an attorney parental consent is not required and there's no statutory or other basis on which a parent can wave those rights for the minor in addition parents do not have a statutory or constitutional right to be present during questioning of their child can you tell me where you were I should have been at my house with my mom on the weekends I usually just stay there what were you doing probably playing video games or playing guitar usually what I do on my weekends is either I have somebody over I just hang out and play video games or play music you know what you doing that specific weekend not exactly but I don't really go places other than my friend house so I know I don't think we hung out that weekend I'm pretty sure I was at my house and if I wasn't at my house then I was at the interview has barely started but Daniel's behavior is likely already raising some red flags with the police answers like I should have been at my house not exactly probably playing video games are selective memory statements which could be a sign that he's trying to keep his story as vague as possible why he might be acting this way isn't yet clear but his body language supports the theory that he has something to hide he's sitting very still which could signal that he's thinking really hard about his story at the expense of moving and communicating naturally as a result police likely feel that they're getting close to solving the Dreadful crime they're investigating so you do know about the M over investigating I mean Davis when something like that happens here it's like holy crap everybody knows about it about it tell me what you know about it I think they were like an elderly couple or something I know that somebody broke in and like stabbed these two people but I don't really know anything else breaking and entering do you know which uh apartment that did that well not the actual one no but I know it was like near my dad's I we drove by it a couple times and we saw like the police tape and everything when was the last time you were there in the area yeah like a week after it happened or something like that it soon enough to where there was still the tape up and everything and there were like all the cop cars were there sustained eye contact like Daniel demonstrates here is a big red flag for deception Daniel could be searching for any signs of Doubt on the investigator's face possibly prepared to change his story at the first hint of disbelief he's also still using a lot of qualifying statements but I don't really know anything else I know we J by it most people struggle with physiological responses to lying and using avoidance techniques to sidestep an outright lie can help minimize that discomfort repetition which Daniel is defaulting to can also make a person feel like they are solidifying their story I'm just also trying to clear up some things maybe some rumors and maybe some information uh regards to you and the murder investigation that we're doing and the murders that happened on cow anything you tell me I haven't heard any of these rumors but you like I haven't heard anything about it I haven't heard anyone say anything about me in regards to it like honestly I I haven't heard anything about me in regards to that I don't know why it would be there why people would anyone would spread a rumor notice how Daniel's hands start to Twitch and how his speech stumbles like honestly I I haven't heard anything about me he can't even get through the statement at first what if it becomes more than a rumor or if you had more information that you may have something to do with it but I don't how can you prove to me that you you don't pretty sure if you ask my mom she'll say I was there I don't know I how would anyone else prove that I mean I know if you're looking for an alibi that that would be in this is not reassuring because it's likely that his own mom is the one person who would lie and say he was there rather than having been somewhere else it seems Daniel may be thinking only along the lines of they have no way of proving I wasn't home when he mentions an by this indicates that he's basically labeling himself a suspect I had nothing to do with it I was just a lazy weekend here the investigator does a good job of the silent standoff most people are uncomfortable with silence when sitting with someone so they'll try to fill the silence the officer is trying to see if Daniel will start nervous rambling again again he doesn't but he does reach over and grab his water and start drinking to break the anxiety of the moment even though he's still sticking to a story the interview techniques are clearly having some kind of effect on him it begs the question if he's truly as uninvolved as he claims why is he getting nervous it's at this moment that a new investigator joins the conversation and the energy in the room has a marked shift hey how you see hi hi you must be Daniel yeah I'm Chris C nice to meet you nice to meet you I'm uh from the FBI work around here I do kind of some of the the criminal profiling stuff and been working with Ariel on this case since it happened so sorry I'm a little late but uh all right you guys have been talking Eddie told me you guys have been talking a little bit and yeah sounds like this young man has quite a history kind of a family a train wreck if I can be so bold to say that pretty much the FBI agent describes Daniel's history rather harshly but not inaccurately so 9 years old when you me bro you you you parents split like parents split mom disappeared for a few months left with Dad who was well he has a temper problem and you know just lost his wife so he's going to be pissed off and that wasn't really fun since then every year it seems like you know there's a new like bad thing to happen or a new cocf to be added into the pile as Daniel opens up to the officer he includes more details about his struggles such as how unhappy he felt living with just his father and the pain of his mother's absence it was really selfish honestly cuz like she left with this she left with a chick like and I don't know what happened with that but she was was involved in my life for a few years the woman Daniel's mother started a relationship with was none other than Daniel's former kindergarten teacher and that pissed me off cuz it's like really you care about your own happiness more than your children's that's it's not right the way I say that when you're a parent it's kind of you made it your duty to nurture your kids and take care of them and make sure that they're okay it appears that the office attempts to build rapport are working as Daniel begins to share his opinions and feelings as the interview continues what's your Rel like with your dad uh not good he never hit me or my sister but he'd hit like the walls or he hit like you know inanimate objects he yell and uh it's that kind of kind of stereotypical just pissed off DED only notice how still Daniel is sitting without shifting in a seat or shuffling around uncomfortably there are several ways to interpret this the most simple being that Daniel is experiencing cognitive overload it's possible that he's focusing so hard on keeping his story straight and controlling the interview that his natural non-verbal communication has ceased however this could also indicate that every movement he does make is very intentional almost choreographic in order to have the effect he wants based on later Revelations about Daniel it seems that this is a strong possibility what was your relationship with you have a sister yeah is she older or younger she's older she's 17 she was a really uh attention seeking habitual liar a manipulator of my parents and you know when you're a little kid and you see that she's manipulating them and you try to tell them they don't believe you cuz you're just a kid you don't don't know what's going on supposedly yeah if what he's saying about his parents and sister is true Daniel is quite observant for being so young it seems as if he has everyone figured out in addition to the interpersonal conflict Daniel reports within the family both of his parents allegedly had extensive medical history in fact at age 12 Daniel was publicly recognized for saving his father's life after he passed out while driving as it so happened Bill Marsh had suffered heart attack Daniel was able to stop the car safely and pound it on his father's chest until his heart started beating again after digging into Daniel's family history the FBI agent makes an extended effort to connect with Daniel on a personal level and build raor in addition to discussing Daniel's past they chat about his interest in martial arts video games and music there's a method to the madness as the detectives lay the groundwork in an effort to get to the heart of one of the most most heinous crimes we've covered so far while it may not seem pertinent to the crime Rapport building is a very important part of the interview process it allows the interviewee to feel more at ease and more like they can talk to the interviewer this makes it more likely that the truth will come out rather than if no Rapport building had taken place alternately you can think of it like bonding or having a conversation along the lines of you would tell your friend something you wouldn't tell a stranger these are all good interrogation tactics um what exactly are you guys trying to get from me well here's here's where kind of concerns are and um people who are much more techsavvy than me cuz I'm just an old guy I don't know anything about anything found this thing called Tumblr and your Tumblr page is that the right term yeah yeah tell me about that how did that come to be Tumblr mhm um I heard about it I made one okay so describe to me the stuff that's on there on my page or on Tumblr in General on your on your page yeah um song lyrics uh things like just miniature things about like what I feel a lot of stuff from horror movies cuz I like horror movies um Gore pretty much it just music and scary stuff these admissions that he enjoys horror movies and Gore don't really make Daniel look good in addition his qualifying statement pretty much it likely makes the investigator wonder what it is he's leaving out horror movies and Gore yeah seems like there's a lot of that on there well since I was a little kid I liked hores I've been watching them like for a long time I'm wondering if it's a refuge for you D in a way kind of is um I've got a dark screwed up sense of humor and actually a lot of that stuff makes me laugh that doesn't sound suspicious at all coming from a prime suspect however it's important to keep in mind that just because a teen dresses in all black and likes horror movies and Gore doesn't mean that they'll go on to harm others or act out what they see in horror movies while laughing at seeing dark or scary things could make a person appear like they laugh empathy or that they're so tough that they cackle at horrible things like a villain in a movie the reality is they may be unknowingly trying to cope with intense emotions or situations this occurs due to a phenomenon known as emotional homeostasis this is similar to when the body sweats as a means of cooling off laughter in the face of something sad or dark could help the person cope with sad or negative emotions it's very possible that Daniel may not know how to cope with difficult emotions or he may be hyp sensitive to intense emotions see it and I don't know not a lot of stuff makes me laugh MH and so it's like I like horror movies and it's just it's the same thing as a horror movie only it's real and since I don't have any connection to whoever it happened to it doesn't really bother me right so and it's kind of like the cutting it's it's a feeling right yeah seriously like it makes me feel something and I've just always kind of been into darker stuff and what do you feel when you say it makes you feel something what is it that you're feeling when you see the the stuff on Tumblr the gore I don't know it makes me kind like shocked and I don't I'm fascinated with anatomy and so like I you can see what happened to them and how warped their bodies are and just it's kind of fascinating to think like what could have done that how did that happen um why did that happen just how did this all come to play and I don't know sometimes they'll be like in a funny pose or something they would just look like stupid and so like gigle at it and it makes you feel something you it gives you a feeling the FBI agent seems to be particularly interested in Daniel's feelings and how they are brought to the surface while it may seem like a tangent it'll become Central to the interrogation and the understanding of the crime what's the concern with that though it's Tumblr it is and and you know I know that there's all those websites out there like there's also a lot of stuff that's like it's relevant to what what going on today like there's a lot of it is just um stuff that's happening in Syria and it's like holy crap this is actually going on right now and no one's doing anything about it it's just kind of like a real life horror movie mhm I don't really make the distinction you know it's brutal and it's dark but it's interesting to me and you said Anatomy you said you had an interest in anatomy tell tell me more about that well just the human body it's fascinating it's I just find it fascinating to like see what what's on the inside you know like not just this cuz what makes it all happen what makes it work what is it right so that's that's part of the fascination with the gore stuff yeah note the posture shift here when the FBI agent asks about Anatomy Daniel blocks off with his leg creating a makeshift barrier like this can indicate anxiety and in this case reveals that Daniel is likely uncomfortable with this line of questioning so far there have been a lot of little tells during Daniel's conversation with police taken together they probably generated interest but what Daniel does next likely convinces police that he's guilty even though the specifics of what they suspected he' done had not yet been addressed so I am not sure how far you and Ariel talked about what kind of led us to you and to kind kind of look into Dan and everything about Daniel um he just said that like he heard like a rumor or something he didn't really tell me why me he just kind of ask me those stereotypical questions you know like where were you who were you with uh what do you know okay so the the the rumors that he's referring to are people's saying specific things about what you have told other people what what would that be that that you were there that you did those murders me mhm that's ridiculous why is it ridiculous a kid no that's well like I don't I don't hurt people like you can ask anyone around me I'm a compassionate affectionate person I care about people I don't when I hurt them I mean yeah they piss me off sometimes and they do some messed up but I care about people Daniel just demonstrated a slew of warning behaviors when facing an accusation he responds incredulously even smiling like it's too ridiculous to be true however police can almost certainly tell that this is a fake smile which doesn't reach his eyes he also seems to be demonstrating the freeze response while he hasn't been very mobile during the interview his movements have increased as the questions become more pointed before he made small motions with his hands and occasionally gestured when he spoke but it all stops here and he becomes perfectly still even more significant is the fact that Daniel doesn't actually deny anything nor does he exhibit shock or anger at being accused he simply brushes it off as absurd finally the fact that he feels the need to emphasize that he cares about people like you can ask anyone around me I'm I care about people I don't when I hurt them I care about people show his effort to portray the idea that he's so great he's incapable of doing something so terrible I see you as a person who has a need you have a big need you have a need for a refuge maybe more than anybody I've ever run across and at age 16 just 16 that's remarkable um it's important to note that Daniel was 15 when the crime took place but months passed before he was interrogated during which time he turned 16 I don't know if that's a good thing probably not but it is an unusual thing see to meet a person like you Dan who is been through through some of the things you have and has this need the compulsion I think the the need to do something to feel well yeah but I don't HT people I don't and the the information that was said that came out of your mouth had specifics of of what happened in that house with those two elderly people that only the person who was inside that house would know very specific information the FBI agent could have launched into an explanation of the truly horrific aspects of the crime and how inhumanely the victims were treated but he holds back and instead tries to minimize the crime he likely hopes that by portraying the crime as compulsion or a symptom of a psychological disturbance rather than an indicator of morality it'll encourage Daniel to open up and tell the truth I what I said that someone broke in and stabbed the people yeah no what what we're picking up on that you said to other people who may have repeated to other people is information that is so specific not just that somebody broke in and stabb two people but exactly what was done to these people well have you asked the people who have told you that where they were well I mean when someone comes to you and tells you exact details of a murder then says no this guy did it isn't that kind of like like we should think about that that maybe he was there or she was there or you know whoever was telling us trying to screw me over I mean my friend is really my life right now okay um I don't know it seems like he has a vendetta out for me or something he's what's that based on I don't know do you mean what's his reason or what's my reason to say that why why do you think he has a vendetta against you well like he knew I carried a knife and he had never had a problem with it until one day he randomly reported me to the office and started all of this you know got me arrested put in the system for a misdemeanor got a got me most likely expelled from the high school and I asked him why and he said I don't like you and I don't want you here he's killed animals before um seen him choke a cat to death yeah yeah people have told us that that's the kind of stuff that you do too I don't you've never heard of an animal not intentionally I've gotten mad and I've like I've hit my dog right it's interesting how Daniel says not intentionally but then says he hurt his dog when he got mad this indicates that Daniel May believe that doing something when you're angry isn't considered intentional or that he gets some sort of pass when he acts on an emotion like anger he may believe that his emotions are not his fault or that he isn't at all responsible for how he reacts when he reacts On Emotion like kicked your dog yeah choked your dog no not choked kicked it cuz it's you know it's annoying it ran into me it won't shut up you know just like but I don't intentionally harm animals so that if we talk to everybody that knows and everybody who's close to him everybody that's close to you Dan and everybody who would know people are going to say Dan doesn't do anything like that to animals but does I don't know if theyd say that he does because he me and him were like we were brothers you know we told each other everything he told me and I saw some of it what did you see I saw him joke a cat to death and I saw him beat the hell out of his dog and what eventually happened with the captain let stop moving so and what did he do with it he threw it in the trash can here we see Daniel attempting to shift the focus away from himself by blaming someone else who will call John Doe for privacy reasons this is clever as it serves the dual purpose of portraying himself as innocent and discrediting Jon as a witness however his slight smile and periodic Chuckles when he describes the cat's death are certainly telling likely recognizing that Daniel has been resistant to the interrogation techniques used so far the FBI agent tries a different approach drawing from the read technique if it did happen that was involv D in in killing these two um older people what should happen to him should go to the general you know in California you know I don't know how old he is is he a juvenile too he's 17 he's 17 so you know juvenal Hall have you ever been oh this whole knife thing like on campus is the first any sort of negative interaction I've had with authority the law I mean I don't know um he used to take family trips to Mexico and he's told me stories of like him and his cousins would do stupid in the read technique the question of punishment is often put forward as part of interrogation as it can help cement in the interrogator mind the suspect's guilt or innocence for example an innocent person will typically suggest a strong negative consequence where a guilty person will offer a less severe option as they're describing their own punishment however Dan manages to use the topic of jail and juvenile detention as an opportunity to highlight his own clean legal record by contrasting himself and John Dan makes himself out to be a good kid and more likely to be innocent thankfully the FBI agent doesn't seem to buy it well we have this this issue then we still have this problem yeah and it's a big problem because somebody knows a lot of information stuff that only somebody who was there is going to know and we look at that and we look at your tum word page and we look at everything that I understand about people in your position that I've met along the way in 25 years of doing this and people are saying it's Dan that's Dan and he did it and he here's here's why didn't do it if it killed anyone I want to like you said there's people that matter to you but the Curiosity the the graphic stuff the graphic nature of it the they're just the the attraction to that how could you not it's an obsession it would be an obsession it would be a compulsion I could never do that to someone for gotten in fights that was self-defense yeah no that's just something completely different never Daniel's fingers are still twitching a bit but he's remarkably still this is a big red flag for deception as Stillness equates to cognitive overload and having to think hard about the right things to say I couldn't do that this is a this is a compulsion and like we were talking about before this is something where you can't help it it's an obsession you think about it all the time and after you're done with it you're going to feel a complete relief a release and and you know a feel you feel and you almost got away with it I mean that's the thing I mean the the the crime was a masterpiece just technique but I didn't do it Daniel's denial is softspoken and respectful he's still focused on trying to be likable and calm however his body language gives him away he gives an almost imperceptible head nod when the FBI agent talks about how violence enables him to feel and the rate of which he blinks drastically increases and after you're done with it you're going to feel a complete relief a release and and you know a feel you feel this is another indicator of high anxiety or fight ORF flight mode both can cause dry eyes and the blink response is a way for the body to automatically compensate for that side effect it was a work of art d okay so somebody did a good job very close to getting away with it this is one of the first times during this extensive interrogation that Daniel interrupts the FBI agent it's almost as if he's motivated by the approval of a job well done while still actively working on not getting caught the agent continues to do an excellent job of boosting Daniel's ego this is reinforced by Daniel's weak denial some someone who is truly innocent would be extremely upset at this point except for maybe a betrayal someone that you trusted and that betrayal leads back to your your whole life I mean since you n years old just cuz I've got a messed up life and because I like scary movies and I like graphic content doesn't mean I'm a murderer I've got the thing that mean depression the thing that means that you're a murderer Dan is because only the person who was inside there would would know yeah but I didn't was done to the person afterward I'm not the one who told you guys that explicit information that you're telling me about other people said that you told them Daniel didn't say that he doesn't know the details but rather that he never told the agent the details an innocent person should be strongly denying accusation and would be saying something to the effect of I don't know any details Daniel is also speaking softly and has a nervous laugh these definitely aren't helping his case so there's two roads you know you can go down the road of saying wasn't me I could never do that and we're going to go and talk to everybody you know and we already are and they're telling us things you're talking about with the cat for example that wasn't that was you no it wasn't and people again who are older than you usually you're very young for this to have the onset of this to start at 8 or 9 it's extremely young what started at that age was my depression Daniel was indeed diagnosed with depression at a young age and had an extensive psychological history that he discussed with the officers earlier in the day um do you take any medications um I take anti-depressant anti- anxiety and a little bit of a mood stabilizer what what are they uh Rin Zoloft and Abilify Abilify yeah is that mostly an anti psychotic yeah but they also added on the anti-depressants to help with stuff that comes along with depression helps with like you know little bit of mood swings uh helps with anxiety too just kind of calms you down this is an interesting combination of drugs well buttin prevents the re-uptake of dopamine and norepinephrine thus making more of those neurotransmitters available in the brain Zoloft increases the level of serotonin in the brain the combination is supposed to also help symptoms of ADHD and improve focus and Zoloft can help reduce impulsivity Abilify also works by regulating serotonin and dopamine this comp combination of meds indicates a longstanding probably medication resistant psychiatric struggle as this isn't the combination of meds a practitioner would likely prescribe right at the onset of symptoms Daniel has a flat AFF effect but it's unclear if this is just his personality or if perhaps it's due to all of the medications he just described it could be that he has a disorder that causes flat a effect but it's also possible that this is simply another sign of his deception and due to nitive overload so but you have you had any psychotic psychosis type indicators um a while back but that was just kind of a mental break what happened to um I snapped mentally and I was scared that I was going to hurt myself or that I might hurt somebody else I didn't feel safe and so I was put into a mental hospital in Sacramento for about a week but since then i' had no issues like that I at the time I thought it was it was pointless and there's was no point in doing anything cuz you're just end up getting hurt you're going to die in the end anyways there's I don't know I didn't see a point in living so your outlook on the world you said hasn't changed but that that point in living has that changed yeah um got to the point where I actually wake up in the morning and I want to be alive you know like I want to experience what life has you know I mean I'm 16 I've just started despite Daniel's history none of what he's describing could begin to explain the degree of brutality required to commit the crime in question with this knowledge of Daniel's history of complex mental health struggles combined with his description of the vast array of medications he's been prescribed we pick back up where investigators broach the subject of Daniel's inability to feel and that that depression and that that self-loathing and that just life sucks it all goes together and you get to the point where you don't feel you don't feel I know you were in pain I know you were feeling horrible and I think that this is a refuge like we talked about at the beginning this is a refuge of the only thing that you can do that makes you feel alive the FBI agent is talking about Daniel's attempts as an attention-seeking Behavior rather than an actual desire to die these drastic actions could be seen as a way to get pity and sympathy or to manipulate people the this is often a Hallmark of certain personality disorders or extreme narcissistic manipulation Daniel also repeatedly positions himself as the victim which is another technique often used by narcissists and a potential red flag for officers we've been talking a long time today and one of the things over 25 years I've gotten pretty good at is reading body language and you see the T things on the TV shows and all that kind of stuff about poker play players uh you know of all things can read faces and tells you know what that is yeah you're not telling me the truth no damn as Daniel's about to see they've reached a turning point in the interrogation the agent is now ready for the real confrontation and from here everything is about to head in a different direction wouldn't you be kind of freaked out out if you already have anxiety and social anxiety and you're brought in here and people are accusing you of killing people it has nothing to do with being freaked out has to be doing what I can see when you're telling the truth and when you're not and I know when you're telling the truth when you're not and you're not telling the truth now then yes I am I didn't kill anybody I've never killed anyone before I don't want to kill anyone I don't want to hurt anyone the person who did this we will do it again I have no doubt about it they can't not it's the inside Obsession and it's the compulsion well then maybe that's where you'll find your guy sir it's not not me okay so going forward would you agree that we've given you every opportunity to explain what happened and why if in fact you were the one who did it yeah would that be fair to say yeah you've asked me to do that we've given you the opportunity yeah but I can't take advantage of an opportunity so you've had you've had the opportunity right if in fact you had done it that you could tell us and explain to us and do you get the feeling like I would understand to an extent to an extent keep on saying that now what's to an extent you can never completely understand another another person only they do even they don't sometimes right turn off I'm willing to try to understand as much as as I can and to make other people understand as much as they can what the real truth is okay okay we need to find whoever did it and ask them why so someone says spreads a rumor no it's not a rumor because it's got fact in it it's not making stuff up yeah but it's fact but it's not directly correlated to me someone gives you facts about a crime and then points their finger at me this is what happened he did it that doesn't mean that I did it somebody within this big circle of people I'm involved with this okay why don't you talk to detective P about what that big circle is and who's in that big circle okay as soon as the FBI agent exits leaving only the local police officer in the room Daniel exhales heavily like he's finally able to relax it appears that the agent's questioning was causing a significant amount of stress Daniel is left with the local police officer to discuss his Alibi further and to provide a list of contacts who might be able to corroborate his story when the FBI agent returns more than half an hour later he takes a drastically different approach um couple things the the evidence the investigation is going to progress okay so we have to do certain things and that's what detective pan is looking at here you know some things that we need to uh check for evidence um so um couple things we have a DNA swap kit here um like to take your DNA to check it against things that have been found at the criming pretty much standard CSI kind of stuff any problem with that [Music] okay the other thing is um and if you do don't mind um sitting down taking off um your boots Daniel cooperates either because he's innocent or just very very sure of himself he allows the police to collect his boots and take Buckle swabs from his cheeks um how long do you have these boots eighth grade eighth grade your feet haven't grown no they got to D near size 10 and okay anything um unusual about these I think so um you ever woring them around blood um maybe I get a lot of nose leads so maybe they got on that okay but if that was to be the case it would be your blood left with no other option Daniel falls back on his default of non-committal and qualifying statements any other places you walk through like major bloody things like deers getting deer getting hit in the road and you walk through anything like that might have walked through like road kill like I after like years of having it I don't really think about what I've been walking on okay yeah it's definitely possible is there any reason that you would have ever put duct tape on the bottom of those boots T no no I put something in here that's cuz I was rubing against my ankle so some duct tape inside the the uppers Here Yeah by where the the green skeleton is how about this one no there was only that one that had the problem okay but never on the bottom no okay so there was no there would be no reason for there to be duct tape residue on the bottom of your boots no they shouldn't be have you ever lent your boots out to anybody no are they what you wear most every day yeah by having Daniel answer these seemingly mundane questions the FBI agent removes the possible excuse that someone else used his boots while committing the crime there were no useful footprints found at the scene just Impressions leading investigators to believe that the perpetrator had taped over the Treads of their shoes to avoid leaving evidence if they find tape residue on the soles of the shoes they will have proof that Daniel is lying the next piece of evidence to be examined is Daniel's phone that phone is is certainly as you know and a piece of of kind of almost cracking equipment if you will in today's day and age not cuz of anything the NSA or the FBI or anything like that's been in the news recently but just because that's what phun off whenever you walk around you hit different cell phone towers and it pretty much gives an imprint we can go back and locate where that phone was at a particular day at a particular time okay okay did you know that can I please go home I've been here all day and so we'd like to take your phone I kind of need that to you know communicate my mother and with my friends Daniel has been in the interrogation room for 3 and 1 half hours by now and this is the first time he's asked to go home it's really incredible that he still believes there's a chance he could be going home at this point it seems like Daniel is starting to realize that he may have made some mistakes as he tries to come up with reasons not to leave his shoes or phone behind well um as with your shoes d umbly take it as the judge his search how much supposed to call people or walk without my shoes well I don't think you're going have to worry about investigators are about to share a huge piece of evidence that will likely further diminish Dan's hopes of leaving the police station anytime soon so there's a recording um that we have and uh a uh phone call I want you to hear it and listen to it went to concert so yeah hello yeah I like the PlayStation and like I've been talking to them a lot and yeah they kind of want to know a lot about Daniel and they want to know if you can talk about it like yeah like everything yeah everything double homicide yeah well a detective like you want to get picked up really cool she's detective K and like she has like really cool hair and I've talked her a lot yeah um and like yeah you feel better I feel better about it you know oh wait they're going to pick me up yeah do you want to get picked up or like can you would that be okay I I don't know I like are you busy today like over at my house right now okay well I me it' be really cool if you like do that the audio the police just played for Daniel was a recording of his ex-girlfriend and friend this likely drives home the reality that he's been betrayed and the police know what he's done police were first made aware of Daniel's involvement when a 911 operator got this phone call is there a way to just remain an hon or call leave whatever type of message you want to leave him I mean you don't choose to leave your phone number but the only the only hard thing is in case I guess they would have more questions I mean if you don't want to leave your real name that's fine you can make up a name or at least a contact number so they could at least just call you back if they had more questions I don't know if youd be willing to do that well I know everything and it's really scary actually because uh he kind of threatened me and all that um you have like the suspect information yes I have I know him I know every he told me everything that happened everything he did like all the little details perhaps sensing the urgency of the situation the operator put the tipster in contact with an officer right away who am I speaking with uh I want to remain anonymous is that okay okay uh what are you calling to report sir um the double homicide that happened in April this year what can you tell me about that um everything actually okay and how is it that you were able to uh have all this information about it the person told me everything so you know who did it yes okay let's start from the beginning what the anonymous informant claim Daniel had done was so specific and so horrifying that it was undoubtedly true you said he disclosed this to you a few nights after the actual death of these people is that correct okay why do you think he disclosed it to you first of all I can't really answer that cuz that that will give me a away okay okay go ahead and just tell me everything that you you told me again I'm I'm a very close friend of his I know him better than anyone else okay he's a really good liar he's he has a lot of problems and he has a lot of problems actually okay where do his problems come from his problems come from family he's had he's always had a messed up life and I've always tried to be there for him but then after this I just I couldn't because he's going to hurt more people and I can't just yeah I yeah I can't okay what's your concern what's your concern about uh remaining Anonymous uh the reason why I don't if he finds out it's me cuz he's if yeah if he finds out it's me he's going to he's going to try to after me or try to get his friends after me and I don't want to just don't want I don't want that to happen it's undeniable that the informant did the right thing in coming forward his bravery in the face of Daniel's threats is possibly what allowed the police to pursue the case at all without his intervention it's doubtful that they would have suspected a teenager to be the one responsible for a crime so heinous Daniel's ex-girlfriend was also involved in bringing Daniel to the police's attention for over 10 years she's remained silent in regards to her part in the investigation but we were lucky enough to secure an exclusive interview she was willing to tell us about her experience with Daniel and what eventually led her and Daniel's former friend to contact the police she wishes to note that she laughs when she gets nervous so any Giggles on her part are not an indication that she does not take this seriously in fact it's the exact opposite even though a great deal of time has passed she reports that the case is still a constant presence in the back of her mind when I met Daniel I was in 10th Grade I don't remember exactly how old I was maybe 14 15 it feels like it was so long ago but when I met him he kind of he was part of my friend group and he just had the same sense of humor as me and we kind of just developed a friendship out of that uh that eventually formed obviously into a relationship he was very nice to everyone at face value um for sure if you didn't know him right off the bat he seemed very pleasant very charismatic he'd be quick to get in a conversation and talk jokes and music and all of that you I don't think you would ever be able to tell just by meeting him that the following events would have ever unfolded in fact she states that Daniel was so Adept at hiding his dark side that it did not begin to emerge until well into their relationship I was actually adamantly trying to end the relationship and he was essentially like coing me into not ending it until we made it to exactly a year so I wasn't able to leave the relationship when I wanted to I started noticing that things were off with him but it kind of just started off we were really young we were kids you know uh we were part of the edgy metal scene so we were all enveloped into dark humor and just pushing the limits for whatever and I noticed that he just kind of had this extra Darkness to him that progressively started coming out as we got further and further into the relationship I think the biggest red flag and you're Pro you know people are probably going to think I'm crazy for even staying with him after this again I was young and dumb he was very interested in watching real life videos of people dying and I was really uncomfortable with it a lot of the stuff that I saw actually still haunt me to this day but again young and um I just kept pushing that was like the biggest red flag and besides that he would just make jokes about you know killing people or the Coline Shooters and jokes about that very very very dark humor he would joke about just any sort of tragic event that that could have happened you know where people died he would joke about it it seems the Coline perpetrators and famous serial killers are often an obsession for people like Daniel similar to how some children who want to play professional football idolize NFL Stars especially if they're similar to them in some discernible way they serve as people to idolize that are like them these are good examples of Daniel's lack of empathy if he found entertainment in these sorts of videos perhaps these served as a type of training as he may have been working up the nerve to execute a murder himself I would say it it stayed pretty consistent up until he admitted to me that he committed the murder and that happened we were I we were walking the dog in a graveyard actually just you know walking around being edgy teenagers and he asked me I believe if I had seen anything on the news or any updates about um a you know a murder that happened I had no knowledge of it and he well just pretty much right out and said that he did it and at first I really did not believe him it took a lot of convincing for me to think that it was real but when he started getting into details of what he did it it became more and more real and even then I mean I was so young and I had never been exposed to something like that that even after the conversation I mean after the conversation I was immediately scared of him until I got a chance to talk to his friend the only other person he told I really did not think it was real at all until I saw an article about it and the pieces matched and at that point I was like oh my God he actually did it he was ecstatic he was excited like he accomplished his life stream putting the horrific nature of what Daniel did aside the fact that he was so ecstatic after the murders indicates his grandiosity in narcissism he only cared about his accomplishment and was riding this high after he did it with obviously no concern for the victims when he was talking about it he lit up like he was genuinely happy kind of also in a way that he thought I would probably be very impressed about what he did it was very much like like kind of showing off this trophy there wasn't an ounce of how can I say this he was confident like there was not an ounce of anxiousness like oh I did this and I don't know what to do next I don't know what to do like oh my gosh there was none of that it was like I did this I'm not getting caught it was a perfect crime I did this this and that and uh very triumphant kind of like he beat the system like these stupid cops they're never going to figure it out because you know I did such a good job back in the interrogation room after hearing the audio Daniel is finally faced with the true gravity of his predicament it seems to be an effective tactic on the part of interrogators because finally they get a bit of honesty from their suspect so I mean you can tell that there's recordings and and stuff like that and uh tell me about the time you said the last time you talked to um to her was um few days ago tell me about how that happened how'd you go to how did you meet with her I went to her house in Dixon and I talked with her how did you did you knock on the front door and wait for her parents to answer and no how did you do it she came outside and we talked really yeah well she came outside and then brought me in and we went to a room and talked how how did you get into the room or to the house went in through the back through the door no there's like a back door so went through the back door yes okay so can I ask something well I'm I'm going to ask you why are you lying about that or why would she completely tell us a different story about how this last cont he went T well I went there and I went in yeah and I talked to her that's completely different than what you just said how did you go in tell the truth I went in through the back door through what part of the back door the doggy door the doggy door okay this admission is huge as it opens a door to an entirely different side of Daniel that he has thus far been attempting to hide breaking into his girlfriend's house is a massive boundary violation and demonstrates a complete compl disregard for social norms and laws as well as her autonomy and rights as an individual as it turns out this may have been the mistake that led to Daniel's capture so I was on the phone with his ex-friend in my bedroom and we were discussing him we were discussing how his behaviors were getting more um in our eyes unstable how we didn't know quite what he was going to do next we weren't on the best you know terms and it was also very close to our relationship ship ending so things were tense we were discussing on our next move and I feel my phone vibrate while I'm on the phone I don't pay any mind to what I first I continue the conversation with me and his friend at the time but after a couple minutes I finally look down and it's a text from him and he said remember when I said I would break into your house or something along the lines of that it's not a direct quote I'm assuming he had previously made a joke about that but I don't quite remember I thought huh H that's funny continued the conversation and not long after my bedroom door opened and he walked in my room it was very late at night all my family was asleep no one had known that he had um was in my house obviously he had apparently uh broken in through my dog door um my sliding G glass door so he popped the cover off or something and just slid right in there and I remember just acting like I was on the phone with a girlfriend and I quickly hung up the phone I noticed he had a knife in his pocket and I just played cool haha what are you doing here this is all a funny joke because I'm thinking if I give off red alarms like oh my God I'm scared this is not cool if I get angry or whatever he's gonna attack me because that's not what he wanted he you know what I mean when he didn't get his way he tended to kind of get on the darker side so I hung up I after a couple minutes I texted his friend but I was unable to continue texting which really scared him he thought that's it she's dead like he was thinking that he was going to do something to me so at that point he had called the cops and the next morning I was getting picked up by detectives to go get interrogated but even though evidence is mounting against him Daniel makes one last ditch effort to convince the police of his innocence so this is the the whole thing about it all right you're going to play hard to get you're going to try to lie you're going to try to shade you're going to try to leave out things that are are inconvenient for you then that's not consistent with somebody who's saying I didn't do this okay it makes no sense I'm scared then tell the so terrified then tell the truth don't lie you went in the dog late at night and you went in and surprised her she had no idea you were coming and you're there poof suddenly it was a romantic gesture is that what happened yes it was a romantic gesture cuz I always used to say you know one of these days I'm just going to show up and I'm going to surprise you so if it was a romantic gesture dad then why the heck would you just sit here and baldface Li a with me cuz I am you guys are threatening me with with what the truth with getting arrested for two murders I am I am so scared right now of course I'm going to do anything I can to try and say that I didn't do this including lying to this police the two police officers who have been sitting here talking to don't a dick okay you don't have to take like a tone all of a sudden you were being hell friendly and now all a sudden Li to me Dan and and I know that you lied about that my life why should I Daniel's tone shifts very abruptly here going from near tears to anger almost instantly this can be interpreted as more evidence of how manipulative he is he can flip a switch from one emotion to the next to suit what he thinks he should be doing he's probably shocked that his lies and other manipulations aren't working because it's likely that his tactics usually work on people less attuned to his brand of psychological intricacies I'm not ruining your life I'm trying to solve a homicide a double homicide and if you do it I understand and I am there for you to try to make other people understand because I see it I see it in you and you're not alone you're not the only one I know it feels like you're the only one but you're not if you want to help me then don't ruin my life and anything send me to the psychiatric hospital okay we can talk about that I'd rather go there than jail okay I mean I'm psychotic that has some that has to you told me earlier that you weren't psychotic did I yeah are you sure I am don't remember saying that you did I asked you if you had taken the no you asked me if what medication was an anti psychotic not if I was psychotic you ask me about the medication and it's technically is an addition to an anti-depressant destabilizing it is so I asked you if you had ever had any psychotic episodes or psychosis indicators and you said no so but you have you had any psychotic psychosis type indicators um that was just kind of a mental break but since then I've had no issues like that I remember it so don't lie to me okay we're pretty good at what we do all right and I'm not trying to ruin your life what doing SM this is the most significant show of emotion from Daniel so far perhaps because he realizes that the truth is coming closer to being revealed significantly the FBI agent seems to be structuring the confession as a way for Daniel to help himself rather than an opportunity to do the right thing he's likely picking up on the fact that Daniel will only confess if he thinks it will be good for him I'd rather be in a psychiatric hospital than be in jail okay Daniels mentions that he'd rather go to a psychiatric hospital than jail seem to be confessions he's not so tough anymore when he's faced with the reality that he may be locked up in a place with people far more threatening than the old couple he prayed on Daniel is weak at his core an emotionally fragile individual then tell us what happened and why that's what what I'm saying I don't doubt that you may end up down that that road and exactly in that place and get help and get treatment until it's proven unless you can prove with the actual evidence that it was me then I'm not going to so if I show you proof that it was actually you if I have physical evidence that it was you you're not going to admit to anything no if you you're going to continue to lie to me that's what you're saying no what I'm saying is unless you can show me something that flat out says it was you and why would I say okay it was me if you think you belong in a psychiatric hospital then that's because you have this all this stuff in your past you have all this stuff in your brain you just want to be outside of your head but you can't and this is the only thing that gave you a place a safe place a a place to land a refuge anything that that gets you to feel either way they pretty much pretty much just tell us that you need help I need help okay that's the first step so let's go back to the first time you thought about killing someone how long ago was that years ago how many years six six when you're like 10 when I was 10 I thought about and plotted about killing the woman that my mother left my father for your kindergarten teacher yes because you were so angry at her yeah okay I saw her as the reason that my family was ripped apart in in a way she was a big part of that so she was going to be held responsible okay so what what were you going to do at age 10 what was your plan to SL through okay how are you going to do that I knew where she lived I she came over frequently I didn't at the time really I was 10 I didn't have a plan so when's the next time that you remember thinking about killing someone uh seventh grade and who was that it wasn't anyone in particular it was just I thought about everybody at that school gave me so much that I just thought about just showing up one day and see how many I could take out before they took me out the anger was boiling over yeah eighth grade I still had the same desire school this is Middle School now yeah ninth grade is when it got more intense every time I look at someone in my mind I see flashes of image is of me killing them okay in numerous ways and numerous horrible ways doing terrible things I can't help it it's just what comes into my head when I see them I don't want it to I don't like that it does but it does right and that's around the time that that started these were other people at school um students it's with everyone everyone everyone I look at okay family members family members doesn't matter it's fing disgusting but is okay it's not a desire it's a thought just appears yeah I don't enjoy it finally after almost 4 hours Daniel's walls are coming down after a 2month long investigation police are about to get the answers they so dutifully have been searching for but even now Daniel has to make sure that he has no chance of getting away with his terrible crime before confessing when was the first time you started thinking about killing these people down the street I really I didn't you didn't start thinking about it I that night I just I couldn't take it anymore I had to do it I lost control of my okay I just went into the street wandered around for a while just looking for who would be which house I should go to it would be a good okay were you by yourself down yeah what time of night was it I think it was like 2: in the morning 2 or 3 okay do you remember what day the week was I think it was Friday night either Friday night or Saturday night okay and when you said you went on the street where did you start out that evening that night um I just kind of walked all around South Davis so and where do you remember next where did you how did you find yourself over um by your dad's house well I've been walking down the streets trying scoping out apartment complexes and houses just trying to see you know who would be which one can I do it too who left their door unlocked his windows open I got a hole in the screen not even a hole just a flap that I could get in out with climbed in through the back listened for storm I heard it went to their bedroom I opened the door and I just kind of stood over their bed watching them sleep for a few minutes my body body was trembling I was nervous but excited and exhilarated I was actually going to do it I was there the sensations Daniel describes are indeed evidence of excitement yet as he recounts the crime he's able to sit eerily still and he remains emotionally flat it doesn't look like he's enjoying recounting the crime or reliving it as might be expected somehow the FBI agent manages not to display any sort of shock or repulsion to the barrage of horrifying facts which is fortunate as such an approach could shut Daniel down and stop the confession prematurely what were you wearing when you we um those boots um black socks black pants like these black undershirt black jacket uh black gloves and a black ski mask okay um where are those things down in my garage at your M sauce what are they inside of I dispersed them all throughout the garage when police searched Daniel's mother's house they found the items exactly where Daniel described however the souls of his sneakers had also been taped over like they suspected he'd done with his boots it was unclear if this was a practice run to see if the tape would effectively obscure his Footprints or if he had instead worn these shoes to commit the crime how about the knife where's that it's in the garage it should be on one of the shelves when you walk in on the left and what does it look like it's a buck knife you ever seen the movie Scream mm it's like ghost face knife like that exact one thought that was kind of cool where did you get that I found it in my mom's [Music] bedroom oh it's to your mom's yeah I found it under her desk how long before few weeks how many houses would you say you checked like the knobs the doors and and looked at the screens and Stu a lot um like 50 50 checked a lot mostly in the area around Co there or um just kind of spread out um there these apartments by my house called the Renaissance Apartments or something I checked there then from there I went like back into the back path and just went around there and I just kind of went around a 2 m radius at my house this was the unlucky house that Daniel chose to enter that fateful night shockingly it was just a few doors down from where Daniel's father lived inside Oliver chip Northup age 887 and his wife Claudia mopin age 76 slept with no idea of the approaching threat chip was a World War II veteran who later became a lawyer Claudia was also a hard worker having been a political activist during the 1960s she was described by her daughter as having endless kindness and support in an exclusive interview with ewu Claudia's granddaughter Sarah had this to say about her grandmother my Granda was everything I looked up to her she was always happy to see me always just had a little pep in her step when she was around me even as really young kid thought I just looked up to her and I adored her literally down to the way she walked and the way she giggled and the way she just walked into the room and everybody kind of lit up around her and so when she passed and everybody was telling me that they you know your Granda was my best friend and I was like man she had a lot of best friends but as time progressed I realized it's because she valued all those people individually for who they were and listened to them and advise them like she did for me but she did that with everybody in fact Sarah and her Granda were so close that she even walked Claudia down the aisle when she married chip in 1996 they had both had previous marriage but didn't let the fact that they met later in life temper their love for each other Chip's stepdaughter Merida has never spoken to the media about this case before but broke her silence to tell IU a bit about chip in this exclusive interview he was a strong personality he was very honest he was very by the book he was very much a rule follower and he had raised six children prior to to marrying my mom he had had all of his children with his first wife wife and he was a good stepfather to my brother and to me he was a terrific husband to my mom and he was a terrific husband to Claudia and even though they had some of their interests were very different compared to like my my mom and his favorite activities he was just he was a great husband and he he loved practicing law and that was one of the things that made it all the more like ironic which is not even strong enough of a word that they would that somebody like that would take their life same with Claudia being a life counselor in her past and doing spiritual counseling it was just he couldn't have picked two more people that would have advocated more for his like rights as a human had had they known each other when they were alive Merida also shared this delightful story about how chip and Claudia came to find each other later in life he was in his 70s I believe and I came over to the house one night where he and my mother had lived and he's watering the garden with a hose in his hand and a cocktail and I said what are you doing and he said you know I don't have a lot of time left and I didn't know what he meant but he was trying to segue into how he had met a woman and he was serious about her and I was probably going to meet her in person very shortly and then I meet Claudia and were in the house and it wasn't the same evening but it was sometime thereafter not too long and I asked her how she met chip and this is in I mean this is pre- online dating so to speak and she says she met him in the man catalog and I said what's the man catalog and she pulls out a copy of the church directory from the Unitarian Church and it had these color pictures of all the members and she said honey I saw him in here H she was a Buddhist and she had narrowed down some of the religions that she thought she would be most compatible with and she had chosen unitarians as as one that might work so she said I found him in the Unitarian catalog and I looked at the picture and I said Claudia my mom's in this picture she said I know I had seen him before but later I heard your mom had passed away and that's when I decided he's the one I'd like to meet and so always laugh because the man catalog was the church directory it seems that these family members agree that chip and Claudia lived their lives with love keeping their families and community in mind as a result their horrible demise could not have come is more of a shock the morning of April 14th 2014 chip and Claudia uncharacteristically missed church when family members tried calling their house there was no answer later that day when chip missed a performance with his folk band a family member went to the house but once again was unable to make contact by that evening when chip and Claudia still hadn't been heard from Claudia's daughter called the police together Claudia's daughter and the police made the terrifying discovery that the back window screen had been carefully sliced open by flashlight they got their first traumatizing look at the scene Claudia's daughter Victoria recounts her experience finding out about the crime in an exclusive conversation with EO her sister was the one who first entered the residence with police and we had planned on saying a quick kiss goodbye everybody was too tired that we would see her later in the week right so went home um just really happy knew I aced the test and good night sleep and got up for work the next morning at 5: in the morning and picked up the phone and there were 12 missed calls from my sister which was very unusual so here it is 5: in the morning I just woke up I'm pouring my coffee I call my sister back and she's very calm in that eerily calm way and she said honey somebody's broken into mom Mommy's house and there are two dead bodies in the house and I I guess I immediately went into shock because I I didn't think that the dead bodies were mom and Chip I thought that because chip was he was in his 80s but he was very athletic and strong and exercised and all that right so I thought that somebody had broken into the house and Chip had killed them and she said did you hear about the double murder in Davis and I said I did and she said what about chip and Claudia and I'm like no I don't think so I think it's in an apartment complex so she and I I are both frantically trying to Google addresses and look at pictures and try and bring up the article and then I realized that in the background of one of the news videos I can see this Sunburst Design This Iron Decor that Claudia had up on the side of the house and I see that's in the picture now in the meantime I've called both their numbers and left messages saying it's Merida can you call me back back and I didn't call either of them frequently so it would have been unusual that they got a message from me and then in the course of that morning which was also the same morning is the Boston Marathon and the Boston Bomber it's kind of all coming together that it's their house we we got there uh we turned down my mom's Street and it was lined with media with law enforcement with the corners um van and at that point I was just really intent on finding my mom because I knew she was in some police car or in jail or something and that she needed me so I jumped out of the car almost while it was still moving and I ran to the cop and of course the police officers came in and I just was crying and screaming and saying where's my mother where's my mother and trying to get them in trying to get them out of the way so I could get in the house and they they let me the big police officer let me push him a couple of times um but then he said no you're not going in that house there's police officers from surrounding counties from Sacramento County which is where I live and they were being all hush hush but they were being um kind you know and my partner Casey asked them several questions and the first thing she said was is Victoria's mother dead which I was thought why is she asking asking that and the police officer said yes oh and I started just kind of crying a little bit like it was breaking the tip of the iceberg right and then she said was Victoria's mother shot and he said no and and as she's going through the things right right and she gets too strangled and then she gets too stabbed when the police officer wouldn't look me in the eye and put his head down and said yes that I I lost it I started screaming in the police station Chip's son Robert however was subjected to an additional level of trauma at the onset of the investigation he was later subpoena as a witness and therefore not allowed to attend the trial with the other family members even if he had wanted to it began this same morning that we learned about the murders I was in the kitchen of of my apartment and and my son was we both had started crying reeling from the loss they were blindsided by the first line of Investigation taken by police and we got to cry for about 15 seconds and my phone rang and it was already the police wanting me to come in and talk to them and that's just kind of how it went then for weeks and weeks um it made perfect sense at first that it it was natural to look at everyone who knew them and all that and I assumed that it would only take them a day or so to realize they were looking in the wrong place and and move on and uh that's not what happened at all they everything seemed to convince them more and more that it was indeed one of my sons my younger son who was the main suspect there there was one night he was literally crying about it saying you know it's not just that he didn't hurt them just he never hurt anyone he had no history of ever harming anybody I think what hurt for him was that they could even imagine he was capable of doing that for the first two months after the murders Robert's younger son was the Prime Suspect the family was subjected to multiple searches of their property close scrutiny from the community and robbed of the opportunity to grieve on one occasion police investigated the Firearms owned by the family even though no such weapon had been used to kill chip and Claudia as a result of this particular search Robert was late to his father's memorial service additionally Robert's professional image was permanently damaged his important computers notebooks and other items he needed to complete his work were collected as evidence while the searches were legal if there were warrants it's possible that the family could bring a civil suit against the police Agency for abuse of process which requires showing the misuse of a judicial process cases like this are rare because to succeed in an action for Abus of process a litigant must establish that the defendant one contemplated an ulterior motive in using the judicial process and two committed a willful act in the use of that process not proper in the regular conduct of the proceedings another part of the ongoing nightmare they did a very extensive search on my apartment that took them more than 8 hours they cut out pieces of carpet they took out a lot of Plumbing I mean they looked for evidence in all the strangest places and I thought that meant now they know for sure there was nothing to find but what they instead found was an old notebook my son had done cartoons in and they found one picture on one page of that notebook that convinced them that he had actually drawn a picture of the crime itself a picture of a figure standing over a bed holding a large knife with two people in the bed what's ironic about that is that that picture had been drawn years before they would have seen in the notebook many more pages after that with drawings on them they would have also seen the same two characters in that picture persists throughout the whole series they didn't get killed in that scene they just saw a figure standing over the bed this drawing was apparently the sole piece of so-called evidence that the police found to incriminate Robert's son all the same it was deemed compelling enough to Warrant continuing investigation for the next two months until Daniel Marsh came into the picture it wasn't until much much later during the trial that the families finally did find out the specifics of what had happened to their loved ones when they finally did it could hardly be expected to bring them any peace what Daniel did to his victims was so gory that we can only provide this limited view of the interior of the house this was taken in the master bedroom where the bodies of both victims were found his almost reverent recollection of the crime might be as chilling as the crime scene itself I was there it's finally happening was almost like an out of body experience I just I didn't feel like I was really there like it was real and the woman woke up so I just started stabbing her over and over okay I'll the Torso and I try to get then the husband woke up and he looked over and just as he looked over I stabbed him in the neck and then I went back to killing the woman cuz she wouldn't die you're stabbing her in the Torso and she just wouldn't die yeah like I I stabbed her a lot as you obviously know it took a long time and it was a lot easier with the guy than it was with her where did you stab him started in the neck and then I just kind of went all over I stabbed her until she stopped moving and she was just kind of twitching I went over to him because I'd only stabbed him once at a time cuz you know I had to finish that one and I just started stabbing him in the Torso as well um even when they were dead I wasn't done I actually at one point took out my phone with the left hand and I shined it so I could see better and then he woke up at some point did she was she screaming or was she making any noise yeah she screamed loud medium muffled medium it got muffled CU I put my hand on mou okay all right and then he woke up the second he wok up he like turned over looked at me and as soon as I like saw him turn over just reached over and got him like right here right here you're like underneath your kind of yeah somewhere the right side of his jaw yeah under his jaw did you feel penetrate a lot was it a was it a good one yeah they all were actually like I felt screen Bon few [Music] times although Daniel implied that he enjoyed the ACT since he continued to stab the victims even after they were dead he doesn't seem to be enjoying the retelling of the murders he's speaking with apathy and low energy at the same time he's speaking casually so he also doesn't seem affected by the memories either okay and that stopped him from resisting at that point well yeah but then he was just like grabbing his neck trying to stop it bleeding everywhere it was like Garling Stu do you remember her saying anything to me to you you said that she was told us that she was screaming some no she gasped and then she started screaming and she didn't scream that long after okay did she say anything to you though sometimes people you know oh she me to stop BL you like what did she say please stop please please stop up shockingly Dan has a strong enough stomach to casually eat and drink as he describes the lurid details of the murders it's disturbing to know that Claudia begged him to stop hearing this plea should tap into a murderer Human Side possibly make them stop and run off Daniel is void of any empathy for others which is why the victim's plea meant nothing to him all right did you say anything to her M and did he say anything to you he didn't have a chance I kind of just went got his neck once again Daniel fails to show any remorse for his actions and instead laughs before recounting how Claudia mopin begged for her life estimate on how many times you might have stabbed him I'm trying to think uh it like at least 20 times you guys should know the actual account right yeah we have to ask you it was like in the minimum of 20 probably no more than like 30 know okay didn't count how about with her same I think it's going to turn to be more the FBI AG was right autopsies revealed that Daniel stabbed chip and Claudia more than twice as many times as he reported chip was stabbed 61 times and Claudia 67 times I just kind of messed around this I open most of their torsos around here and in the woman I put a phone inside of her and I put a cup inside the guy I don't know why I really know Victoria Claudia's daughter states that they had to go to extreme links in order to make her body presentable again I I was just really intent on seeing my mother I wanted to see her face but I didn't know her face was destroyed so the coroner was saying no no no the the funeral home was saying no no no we're going to we're going to have a closed casket and I pulled the the funeral director aside and I said Hey look look this is a really close community and family we need to see my mother's face to say goodbye I still didn't know that the face was destroyed I had no idea I said look I I think that her throat has been cut but you could restore her face and I remember saying that to the mortician and the mortician's looking kind of looking her eyes around like this like thinking can I do this can I do this and she said okay we're going to have to get a specialist so we got a specialist the woman came and when we finally did see our mom she looked like our mom Against All Odds Claudia's family was able to bid her a proper goodbye despite the terrible injuries left on her body and so the cup and the phone who what did you put into who I put the phone into the woman and the cup into the man where did you find those in the kitchen okay what else did you do in the kitchen when you were what led you to the kitchen to see the cup and the phone the kitchen was on the way to the back where I came in from and I was heading out and then I was like I don't even know honestly I just wanted to the people who had to like investigate it yeah that would be us yeah throw them off make it look a little make it look just what the hell it work do you remember any other cutting on his body in particular and any anywhere else like a lot in the Torso and in the sides and neck oh in the forehead his forehead too what was that about is it exploration curiosity or and yeah plus I've never actually stabbed someone so I want to see how effective the knife was and I kind of like I punched them a few times at what point at the beginning then this is when they were dead this is after they dead okay just kind of like hit them a lunch I'm not going to lie it felt amazing how did it feel man felt great I it was pure happiness and adrenaline and dopamine just all of it rushing over me most exhilarating enjoyable feeling I've ever felt was a lot Messier and it didn't go I expected what was different this was a lot more exciting more intense the actual stabbing was more exciting and intense than slit in their throat cuz it was actually like they were awaken knowing and resisting that en tighten the experience you with Daniel's confession now in hand police were left with the burning question of what might drive a 15-year-old boy to butcher two innocent people and claim to have enjoyed it the answer May lie in further memories Daniel shared from his childhood tell us again how how far back the dreams of hurting people started started my around the time I turned 14 and what would the dreams be like what was a typical dream I wonder this big city that I've never seen before and I just killed ever was on the street it evolved from there to and I got to the point where I don't know why but I would dream that the people I was killing were the people I care about and things I was doing were to them and to other people as well and but when I see someone I just get those images and thoughts but there's a difference between a thought and a desire talk a little more about that what how how have they related and how did they occur in your experience I've had these thoughts but that doesn't mean I want to have them or want to act on them right can you see it being different some aspects of it which aspects I think that I can be treated for being homicidal I know that I can't be the first one I'm not obviously I know that there has to be some sort of treatment for him the no sympathy or empathy I don't think I can change that do you remember a time when you did have it I did yeah I wasn't always like this what age were you think that changed prob like 14 I just it just disappeared this claim that his empathy disappeared doesn't fit Norms perhaps this marks the time when Daniel first came to this realization typically individuals with aspd and psychopathy began showing signs of their illness much younger it's likely however that there could have been some sort of trauma he experienced at the age of 14 it's very possible that Daniel cared less and less because maybe he had to cut off his emotions for other reasons when children and teens deal with trauma or other major life stressors they may cut off emotions entirely this can be considered an Adaptive response in many ways because feeling those difficult emotions could be far too distressing did you ever look up on a computer and do research on Psychopaths yeah why did you do that I looked up sociopath and psychopath because I always found it fascinating and The more I've aged the more I can relate CU I don't feel sppy for other people at all don't feel empathy for them and whether I like that or not it's the way it is just like I want to hurt people I want to kill people but I don't want to want want that I wish it wasn't that way it's the way I am I'm I'm it whether I like it or not a diagnosis of psychopathy could explain though certainly not excuse Daniel's murderous actions there's a theory that individuals with psychopathy have such a high threshold for feeling emotions that they need something major to happen in order to elicit any feeling at all as a result the only things that really stimulate emotion like a normal person would feel are very extreme things like death violence or intense fear disturbingly this could mean Daniel's killing just to feel something explanation is not as far-fetched as it sounds however soon we will learn about Daniel's current feelings regarding his actions thanks to direct correspondence with him and his new fiance when Daniel was officially assessed for psychopathy disorder he scored a 35o 8 out of a possible 40 one of the highest scores ever seen for comparison Jeffrey dmer scored 23 out of 40 and John Wayne gasy 27 out of 40 and their scores are considered high in fact Daniel's score is so extreme that it raises the question if his mental health history was curated to explain away crimes he planned to commit in the future it's possible that he intended to use this history as a fail safe in case he got caught to lesson punishment with his IQ of 114 which is the very high end of normal it's possible that Daniel was smart enough to pull this off however the only thing we'll know for certain in this regard is that Daniel's brain is wired extraordinarily different from the average human had Daniel not been apprehended his crimes would likely have continued in increasingly debased ways since that time has it been building again yes have you thought about what you were going to do next yes about that the same thing a different mask and a different gloves a different jacket and instead of breaking in I figured I'd get somebody on there alone at night out in the street or out somewhere just find somebody alone at night and beat him to death with a baseball bat did you have anybody in mind no had you actually gone on looking for someone yeah when was that I don't remember done it a couple times a couple times since two months ago did uh you have any contacts did you think any find anybody that you think would be likely now that he spilled all the details of his crime Daniel appears to have no reluctance when admitting that he would like to kill again this statement would have a direct impact on his fate within the legal system his later assertation that he aspired to be a serial killer certainly wouldn't help either for now though the interrogators have all the information they need what questions you have for me was I really screwed either way okay good yeah we would have found all that stuff and we would have tested would have come back with blood on it would have been the victim's blood and was there actually DNA list back there though at the crime scene there are unknown DNA profiles I don't know if they're yours or not we'll find out could be people other people in the house that we don't know about that we don't have identified that we haven't compared those profiles with if there was did you think you might have made a small error at the house I don't think I did that's what I was thinking no it was a it was a very well executed CME no doubt about it thank you clearly you're a smart guy and but for these afflictions I think would have a different life no doubt yeah uh pretty much done now it may seem as though Daniel has exhausted all potential shock Factor but as it turns out he has one more chilling statement to make however this one is delivered by request you um mentioned that pretty much everybody you meet you have thoughts about killing them and how you would kill them yeah so how would you kill me there's a lot of ways I mean that you've thought of so far in the couple hours that we spent together here well choking you to death with your tie okay beating your face into the mirror until it broke and using the glass to cut your arteries uh gouging your eyes out and just smashing your face into the wall nothing personal I don't take it personal okay it's just that's what happens when you meet somebody when you're thinking when there's that time when involuntary it's something just happens it's like breathing you breathe you don't think about it it just happens can't control it I couldn't if I wanted to and I do want to on that note the FBI agent steps out for a moment to begin the booking process during an earlier moment in the interrogation when Daniel was no longer under the watchful eye of the police a different perhaps more accurate side of him emerged [Applause] what [Music] Daniel was brought to trial for the murders of Chip norup and Claudia mopin which lasted 5 weeks despite the brutality of the crime Claudia's daughter Victoria and her granddaughter Sarah both mentioned that they find a small amount of solace in the knowledge that chip and Claudia died together as they always wanted Victoria was once again again willing to share her Insight on the experience starting with the moment she first saw Daniel at the trial and here he comes and he come they bring him right up to me right up to me like this I'm if I turn like this I could have I could have touched him right and I thought to myself in that moment this is your chance V get him right and and I thought I could just grab him right and I could just push him into the marble a couple of times but I felt my daughter behind me and she must have known what was going on because she wrapped her arms around me in this huge bear hug from behind and she says in my ear mama don't do it mama don't touch him we need to go into the courtroom and we need to be there and understand so don't do it mama don't do it Claudia's granddaughter Sarah recounted her interactions with Daniel's family during the trial so we went and and put us in a little room and they were like we're going to bring you in into room at a certain time and we went to go down the small little narrow hallway and on one side was our family and the other side was his family which was a little baffling to me that we were literally three or in front of each other and they were teenagers mostly there was very quiet and stoic and this didn't my son's not responsible kind of like face like this is you know um but the teenagers were like just I don't want to say teenager because it's not it wasn't typical Behavior it was was almost mocking and they had free Daniel signs and t-shirts and apparently they had started site too a free Daniel Facebook and they it was an awkward like hour that we had to be with them the families remained in close proximity even after entering the courtroom Victoria Sarah and other members of the victim's families were seated directly behind Daniel's Father Bill Marsh during the proceedings Victoria's memory on the testimony from Daniel's friends is also enlightening and then the friends got up and his friends were just terrified young people his girlfriend and his best friend um got up and testified that when he was as early as 10 years old was talking about homicides and talking about and and actually hurting animals you know and and I saw him because of course I watched him right the whole trial so I saw him reacting to what his girlfriend and his friends were saying and they couldn't even look at him they were terrified and he was looking at them like I'm gonna get you I mean he there was so much manipulation and anger it just seething from him during that testimony of his friends Daniel's ex-girlfriend friend was required to testify at the trial because she was one of the people that turned Daniel into the police and was privy to the details of the crime from her recollection it sounds like this was a harrowing experience for her and I really don't remember much of it it was I mean I would into straight panic mode uh all I remember is I started uncontrollably crying on the stand and they have they had to bring out a dog for me at some point and they had to uh actually just take a whole break and let me go for a second and recuperate and come back I barely remember seeing Dan's face I barely remember seeing anybody I know I know I looked at the victim's family and I know I saw them but I don't remember anything about it because it was just such I I just blacked out essentially and I remember that I was on the stand and this is also something that I just feel the utmost guilt about because I I didn't know how to answer questions when I was on the stand I just kept saying I don't know I try to give the most information I could and they were asking very specific things and I was panicking and I just kept saying I don't know and I left the courtroom saying oh my God I did not help them at all I did not give them any information to this case that's going to make sure that he stays away I just kept saying I don't know and all I could think of at the time is that I wanted to talk to the victim's family I remember he tried to plead insanity and that's what me and his ex-friend were essentially there for is to be like no this was calculated it was planned and it was executed did with precision and celebrated after the fact there was no oh I kind of went crazy and this happened and oh my God now I regret it um it was like I took out the steps to make sure I did this right I did it and I'm happy I did it she also had this message to share with chip and Claudia's families I would just first and foremost apologize I would say I'm sorry I'm so sorry that I you wait so long I'm so sorry you spent those six months wondering what happened and all the horrific things that it must have put your family through I'm that they were investigated they had to turn over every leaf and really it we were we held the key to stop that part of their suffering and I cannot I mean I no matter how much I think about this situation there's always going to be that level of damn it why didn't I just go to the cops immediately why did I prolong it for so long what was there to think about I mean we ended up in the same place anyways like I said earlier no amount of planning will ever make you ready for that situation that's the one thing if I have one thing to go back in time and change that would be it I've realized your intuition your gut feeling when you're unsettled that feeling of offness it it really holds some power to it and some truth and you should definitely listen to that never go along with something you're not comfortable with further insight into how we can learn from this terrible crime comes from Robert ship's son he once again expressed frustration with the system wishing that Daniel's issues could have been taken seriously when they first arose I believe the first time that the police were called to the school because of him the second time they were called he had brought a knife to school um this was after the M but uh okay he had killed a raccoon in his backyard and the school counselor was very worried about how much he talked about wanting to kill people but by the time the police finally got there at least two of the people people were gone two of them had to go so the person who was still there to talk to the police didn't even have the direct information there's millions of kids with problems there's millions of kids who feel terrible about themselves but this is extremely rare to have a kid whose dream is to be a s pillar who starting at age 9 or 10 is fantasizing about all the ways he wants to murder people so and just to be aware there's a lot of kids who need help of one kind or another but there's this very very small number who just need to be ident identified as threats it seems there were multiple opportunities for Daniel's downward trajectory to be interrupted and yet nothing was done until it was too late and two people were dead Daniel was tried as an adult but as a result of policy changes made in 2016 and 2018 was able to appeal for a return to juvenile court and they did warn us uh at the DA's office that he would file appeals because of that new legislation he was entitled to what's called a fitness hearing a fitness hearing could have resulted in Daniel's case being returned to juvenile court in which case the trial would likely have to be repeated in protest Claudia's granddaughter Sarah organized with other victims affected by this law and they stood on the state capital steps all day lobbying for the governor to veto the law in the end their efforts didn't work but neither did Daniel's appeal the court determined that because his sentence was finalized before the new policies were signed he could not use the new laws to back his appeal in 2018 Daniel gave a TED Talk entitled embracing our Humanity during which he discussed his childhood past trauma and experience in the prison system the recording of his presentation has since been removed and was not available upon request but in the transcript Daniel claims that throughout his childhood he felt quote alienated like was hated yet completely irrelevant he goes on to say it took me coming to prison to find the true value of human connection we must learn to respond with love even in the most difficult situations however around the same time Daniel gave this speech he also allegedly got the wounds he inflicted on Claud and Chip tattooed on his own body so one has to question how sincere his speech actually is the murder has taken it all the way to the supre California Supreme Court Court they have turned him down so it's been 10 years of appeals they refuse to even hear it um so he I I we don't know according to the Das they say that he's not eligible to go to the federal courts because he was turned down by the Supreme Courts I don't know but I feel tremendous relief about that Supreme Court decision and I can maybe stop fighting despite many appeals Daniel continues to serve his original sentence of 52 years to life for the double murders with enhancements for the mutilation and torture Claudia and Chip went through however because he was a juvenile when convicted he will be eligible for parole in 2037 in addition to speaking with the families of the victims Daniel Marsh was given the opportunity to participate in this project as well he declined the opportunity to be interviewed giving this explanation I failed to see who this documentary would would benefit as all similar efforts that have come before it have to my knowledge only prolonged and even resurfaced the suffering of everyone I've Hur I'm not interested in amplifying that pain and exploitation by revisiting old traumas they've suffered through my actions ironically Daniel does not acknowledge the role his appeals may have played in dredging up past trauma for the victim's families we also had the opportunity to correspond with Daniel's fiance Catalina escalar she states that they're currently finalizing their marriage paperwork and that somehow despite Daniel's incarceration the majority of our time each day is spent together but didn't offer any details on how this is logistically possible in regard to how she and Daniel met she reports that they grew up in adjacent hometowns one has to wonder then if perhaps her house was one of the ones Daniel considered entering to commit his gruesome crime while contact with this unexpected couple was initially very professional correspondence was abruptly and unexpectedly severed by Catalina as soon as the existence of Daniel's contentious Ted Talk was mentioned no Catalina wrote We do not want to be a part of this as we both stated numerous times stop asking in what seems to be a direct contrast to how Daniel and Catalina view media involvement in the case Claudia's daughter Victoria says that she has embraced the opportunities to share her story and ensure that chip and cl are remembered as more than just victims it was about speaking to someone about it just like I'm speaking to you right I'm telling you the story again so when I when I leave this interview I know I'm gonna feel better I'm I'm telling you about my mom I'm telling you about my experience and you're listening and and then I I got to the point where I have to trust you or the media to give to their their listening Community I don't want to be the woman on you know the internet that said the murderer cut my mother's eyes out I don't want to say that and so in the beginning I was mad about that like this is the life that I have now but but that is the life that I have now so I have to deal with reality and I had to deal with incorporating that into my own life for Victoria Sarah Merida the rest of Claudia and Chip's family members and Daniel ze's girlfriend friend there is no forgetting there is only moving forward and healing in the face of the new reality that was forced upon them and as unfair as it is they may have to keep fighting to ensure that Justice continues to be served on behalf of the ewu team we would like to thank those who participated in interviews thank you to Victoria herd Sarah rice Merida Murray Robert norup and Daniel's ex-girlfriend for helping us provide a thorough and thoughtful study of this unfortunate tragedy

Channel: EXPLORE WITH US

Views: 6,990,853

Keywords: documentary, true crime documentary, psychology, law, legal, analysis, educational

Id: Fwvm3pQCJlg

Length: 124min 54sec (7494 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 01 2023