The Case of Anthony Palma (Jim Can't Swim Imitation)

in the lexicon of forensic science few terms have come more into the wider public consciousness than DNA evidence DNA analysis was first put to the use of solving an open murder case in 1987 when 27 year old Colin pitchfork was linked to the rape and murder of two fifteen-year-old girls Lynda Mann and dawn Ashworth after the DNA profile from his blood sample matched that of the semen found on the victims over the course of the decades that have followed the privilege and quality of DNA testing has steadily risen where once a blood sample the size of a quarter was needed to render a reliable profile now remarkably scant amounts of meta can be used to confirm or exclude the culpability of an individual with increasingly staggering degrees of certainty but in the year of 1997 the technology was not quite where it needed to be to resolve the disappearance of eight-year-old Kirsten Hatfield on the night of May 13th Kirsten was put to bed by her mother in their home on jet Drive Midwest City Oklahoma the next morning she had vanished her bedroom window was open and small bloodstains were found on the sill as well as on the six-foot cyclone fence in the backyard with Karstens torn underwear was discovered also stained in blood the blood samples were used to create a DNA profile but unfortunately no suspects at the time of the investigation were a match in the case went cold in addition to the devastating grief that must come with losing a child the ambiguity around the culprits identity would burden Karstens parents with yet more anguish in the form of suspicion due to the absence of a match from any acquaintances suspect and skepticism that a girl of Karstens age could have been taken in such a seemingly violent manner without making enough noise to alert anyone suspicion that someone in her family played a role in her disappearance circulated the ranks of Oklahoma law enforcement for the nearly two decades Karstens case remained totally cold Midwest City police reopened the case in 2014 based on a tip in the process of the new investigation the blood samples were retested by the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation to create a new and substantially more precise DNA profile investigators also reinter viewed multiple persons of interest that lived in the neighborhood on the night of Karstens disappearance among them was 56 year old Anthony Joseph Palmer lived just two doors down from the Hatfield residence though it wasn't known at the time of the original investigation he also had a slew of sexual assaults in his past wanting to appear helpful and avoid suspicion Palmer readily made himself available to investigators and agreed to provide them with a DNA swab without objection the subsequent test resulted in a match with a certainty of two hundred and sixty three six Tilian to one it likely goes without saying that physical evidence of this magnitude is essentially insurmountable with the odds that the blood found on Karstens windowsill and on her torn underwear could belong to anyone other than Palmer being incomprehensible my news and an innocent explanation for Palmer's blood appearing in those places being comprable outside the realm of conceivability one might wonder why police need to spend time on an interrogation in these sorts of cases but aside from an outright confession making the state's job easier the goals behind police questioning can vary beyond the most straightforward aim of securing a conviction due to the morbid circumstances surrounding Kirsten Hatfields disappearance her family had long given up on the prospect of her safe return they had however longed for Kirsten to one day be afforded the dignity of a proper burial to this end detectives reasoned that if they could bring Palmer to terms with the severity of the evidence against him and the futility of maintaining his innocence perhaps even if for no other reason than selfishly attaining a small sense of redemption he would grant the Hetfield's that tiny morsel of Solace stomach issues in the toast and drink water they've really kept so the into indigestion real bad it's true if I can sleep through the night or get four or five hours but I know exactly exactly what it may seem gratuitous to include the portion of this footage that simply features one of the detectives discussing his indigestion issues with the suspect however it is actually noteworthy in the read technique the most widely subscribed score of interrogation investigators are encouraged to spend a portion of time building rapport the suspect before even discussing the case at hand let alone confronting them it's advised that the investigator attempts to find commonalities with the suspect to install a sense of trust buter all sulfate and something you cannot be nice to anyway no you said no but I always feel guilty drinking or somebody bring them have a little advantage over me tell me they've met you before and some other kind of thank you for coming down here well you know I'm a state employee you know it's something we have to do well I have to abide by all the oppression forcement and Norman here's where we're kind of bad where we're still looking at the person had children and who are going back I know over the years you weren't there the first time they said don't worry you know Miller the talk to you about you over 17 years I know in my life I've changed a lot and so we wanted to talk to you about if you can kind of tell me seven years ago in the lead-up to this question the detective is attempting to lessen potential minimizations of Palmer's crime 17 years is a long time I know I've changed a lot over that time the idea being when it comes time to go for a confession Palmer might feel as if he has permission to partially excuse his actions I was a different person then it may be slightly too soon to even allude to Palmers potential culpability in the early stages of an interrogation the usual protocol is to take more of an information-gathering approach establishing the suspects baseline of behavior for comparison later on still it will be some time before the first direct confrontation in Palmer certainly begins becoming more talkative neighborhood I know I thought I've read some of the reports that from the hit movies before and how it appears to me that you're they call you uncle Tony around there because you care about the kids you appeal a home in Aikido basically when I moved there lived there there was a bunch of older people that was looking not attending of retirement but most of the people in that area were old retirees and you know body being I like doing stuff all the time you know I was always outside and somebody's working on their vehicle got to go beat busy body a you know help or somebody washing machines broke down and older people you know they think nights other people you know can't do stuff and I've always been mechanically inclined you know where I could figure stuff out you know or help them do this or you know just I've always been known about friendly but neighborly right and I did my first home you know I try to make it work that neighborhood was my home yeah well did you help any of the kids over there well we're not eating pizza yeah I've always there's always that's my Playhouse well I'm about pule that's always been my pet peeve is I grew up hungry you know and I don't there's a lot of kids hungry you know no I I don't like that I mean not where I'd go down my way angry but I mean you see kids you're over there eating something and they're just you know you see him drop I didn't thank you I can't stand that as my partner Landers said we're still working on that field case okay there are some things that we want to go back over with you we try to be as thorough as we can be in cases like this and I'd like to go back initially over some of what you've already talked to the teller about in the past I wasn't there I'm kind of up to speed on some of it but my understanding is wind person disappeared you were still living there just at 11:04 Craig okay do you mind just initially kind of take us back to 1997 and go back over that maybe that evening before and into that morning when all of it all kind of start blowing up and just best you can tell us everything here bruh grab and take your time I know we're going back summer yeah I'm starting to get that old-timer stuff but really the only thing I can really remember is afterwards you know Lee you know was it it was just a typical day you remember anything unusual about that evening it stands out to you now other than what I told them about you know seeing the white truck you know in front of the white Chevy truck in front of their guard okay you know no I like I said I didn't I didn't have anything to do with those people didn't know them at all you know it's not like I went hey yeah you gotta leave dude no no one looked like that I was usually I was outside working on my yard you know either top of the neighbors or kids would come by tell me can you fix my bike you know stuff like that you said you didn't know them I'm assuming your meaning Shannon Anderson yeah and I couldn't even tell you how long did they live there okay I was going to actually ask you that so you didn't know how long they've been living there when this happened I going to fight they hadn't been there very long and tell me what you remember about that you never seen a movie in or anything no no trying to remember I dare a friend of mine lived in that house I can't remember his damn name this but he had a janitorial service Jenny King and Doc busy with him I hope to put the fence up around these aisles have you ever been inside that house when that gentleman live there William got to get I'm assuming you probably saw Shannon and her stand running around a grid and so forth okay the truth until that happened I'm I I think I think the kid one time she was playing with the crystal that lived up the street and I don't remember if it was in that time for him or what if Palmer's innocence in this case was in any way possible then the most suspicious behavior from these last several minutes would be his consistent effort to distance himself from the Hatfield family as much as possible he had a reputation as being a friendly neighbor eager to help with repair jobs and who would sometimes give food to hungry children there's nothing inherently sinister about any of this in fact quite the opposite and having these traits would never make you the prime suspect in a child abduction absent any other evidence but Palmer is adamant not just that he didn't have a close relationship with the Hatfields but that he was barely aware of their existence despite his neighborly reputation again just imagine you were innocent of any wrongdoing and you were asked if you had given food to a child would you reaction be this strong firm forthright denials can actually be a good indicator of innocence but they're expected in response to accusations rather than innocuous questions as there will never any time machine and ask for your help to fix this or that or mow the yard for a year just pay the truth you know the only good and I didn't even recognize her when y'all showed me the pictures over nothing we thought Americans actually studied okay that's yeah I met her once afterwards she was going up and down the street you know she was still looking for her key and you know I met her once I gave her some money so she'd have gas money so she could keep doing what she was doing you know was this like in the day days after or get talking guys under let me bounce back a little bit we got off a little bit off track I was kind of having to go back over what you remembered through the night and our I read over the the FBI notes that they took when they talked to you I guess there was some information about you here in dogs mark yeah I had a dog in the backyard dog his name was Doug about three or four o'clock in the morning you went to race in hell so I just you know Brooke believe it or not in my neighborhood we still got skulls and possums and stuff like that bless other dogs you know so I don't know why that woke me up but because I usually didn't wake up and and usually eat out inside anyway but it woke me up and he was barking at that back fence at our back fence but at the time as you walk out my back door I had a note paper cup tree so unless you went out there you know you can see and I just hollered at him because you know thinking there's another dog because there was always and traffic there's human traffic back there but usually have other dogs yeah there was other dogs or cats there's always animals to be there so I just you know I did take nothing about it I just hollered at him and he came in and I'm going back to bed so you actually let him back in the house we say you open what your back door I'm assuming let him know did you go investigate if you look down the alley anything like that she's usually in the past whenever idea that's what it was was you know either another dog or people gives that alleyway you know to get through why I don't know because I mean I don't know where you'd be going of it and from house to house but there was always not always but there was there was traffic in speaking of the out of the way did you have any kind of a gate or anything you went out to it so you didn't have access to it through your backyard I mean I I think somebody it'd be ideal to be able to go out in the alley and you get back a treasure up and just seems like everybody having well the house next door to me had didn't have a fence so whenever I weeded or you know did whatever because always we needed you know to put around for my fence you know next door and then that alleyway quids alleyway was because I read your your statement you said you saw your gate ajar what she gave was that de jour yeah he did have a gate got a gate well it's yeah it's a gay but no it wasn't one the door okay anything else that night after you let it dog back in did anything else occur that you remember no I would back to bed me and oh okay and then when did you first become aware of person was missing all that well the next day there was all that activity and I had neighbor across the street was going on they said they couldn't find Kirsten and I didn't think knows about it you know I went to work and then I don't remember she called me or I called over there but and they said there's more people back you know because they wanted to go through our houses and blah blah blah buddy it called me said it was Davis dead that we were going it back at our house okay so I rectangle and then what happen I just sat there it did our officers from the FBI or anybody come it was I had the I you know we came in took stateless you know walked through the house and you know wanted to go in the backyard you know cuz I had a shed back there he would look in the shed okay so he did look through the house this is almost certainly a lie in an earlier interview Palmer had told detective Darrell Miller that an FBI agent had searched his house the day after Karstens disappearance when Miller went to verify this he found no records confirming any kind of police search on Palmers house in 1997 and he was he just asking a general questions about version and did you know where ever seniors basically did you write a statement for him or did he get out of conversation thought he brought her to stay with that pack they drug test back back in them days that's your work well they always hold that over all of us you know that we never we never they got you a sit was kind of the threat yeah there were some uppers they will go he ever had any trouble years ago first we burned himself down with a dangerous weapon I think I filled your partner though really that was a dumb kid I was I think face turned 18 and all about it my girlfriend is Walker Walker here the narrative of past regret that we saw a quick preview of at the beginning of this interrogation begins an earnest this is a form of the minimization technique with the interrogator will try to downplay the severity of the suspects crime although neither detective has directly accused Palmer of any crime at this point they'll know he's certainly anticipating us their strategy is to give him time to come to terms with his actions through the prism of having done it as a former self a different man than stands before them today a sort of redemption by way of regret the change odor was but know I'm not the same person I was 17 years ago I matured a little bit always I could say that life change these people you know as you get older you start recognizing things that you that you could handle differently than what you if you had it to do over again you change you know I can that's the thing would be capable became ever change it no you can't change what happened but sometimes you can make things better I remember a few years ago I went to my high school reunion and I seen a kid that the detective now goes into an anecdote about making amends with a man he bullied as a teenager and Palmer remains relatively reluctant to engage with the regret narrative just letting the detective tell his story this is fairly predictable as he knows what he's done and why he's here it's a rather tedious portion of the footage to watch which is why we're floating through it but do note that what they're doing here isn't as meandering and pointless as it may seem on the surface the interrogation itself hasn't begun yet and the detective won't have any expectation that Palmer will confess to the murder of Kirsten Hatfield just because he's first up to being a bully in high school all he's attempting to do is provide as much psychological cushioning as he can for Palmer's self-concept so that he might be more receptive to minimizations when his undeniable culpability in this crime as they before him later on he's just again establishing that your past doesn't define your presence he still thinks only those I really hadn't changed Wesley was ineligible he was yes work the next week he's going fishing the week before you is gone fishing you just go fishing for a week don't dump my car radiation because he like because when he's gone I don't worry I did it all right it's my therapy actually it is there to be is very good therapy it is unlike you I work I mean that's all I ever know I must work then my wife doesn't understand that working is therapy to you especially well I've always I've always suffered from depression back when I was young kid so and that always seems like working I guess gets your mind off of whatever it is you're thinking about or you know whatever some that's all I do is work easy a sense of accomplishment that's one thing we do especially when you do your folks tell you that game worth the [ __ ] you'll never amount to yellow beans and my only well the only thing that really and that's the protocol to getting completely off the deal but when I let Walters for another trouble Walker's I was going out with an angel I mean my biggest mistake the first time Palmer engages with the narrative of past regrets he states that the biggest mistake of his life was ruining the relationship he was in when he was 18 years old as a result of his conviction the sly implication being that anyone guilty of child murder would not have the former as their number one you have to pick time you ask every time I can really play another step ladies you camper well yeah that's basically what it wouldn't have happened you know he was picking on her and I had like a dumb kid had to go do talking about it you know Palmer appears to be attributing the motive behind his assault and battery charge in Walters Oklahoma to avenging his then girlfriends and his treatment by another man the victim of the assault and question was his landlord at the time a woman who would later testify at his trial that he was attempting to beat her unconscious with a soda bottle and rape her her teenage son was able to intervene and stop the attack and of course I've been drinking that's not the best decision making across conducive to great decision making you pay to get back to what we're here about I'm not I mean you've been living there all these years since Kirsten went missing I'm curious about your your thoughts on what happened who might be involved that kind of thing I don't know say the Jews like I said I didn't know him but one thing that's always bothered me that she left mom she went to Jones I guess with her dad or something like that I you could have got me off out of my house yeah I mean yeah I know what if she comes back you know what if somebody makes a call or you know something like that I there was no way I'd left that house that's the only thing that bothers me yeah she felt like she shouldn't have time with you did you ever at any point over these years back when it occurred have any knowledge of what happened or know who was involved or were you in any way involved oh so you're not responsible for person's disappearance no didn't play any part now like I said didn't know didn't have like I said I was just barely you know saved my descender words twice writing with the kids but other than that I didn't I didn't know well just have a curiosity what do you think the motivation was of whoever did this I mean why would this have happened well dad I couldn't have told you but after over the years you know and hearing the rumors and this and that the other me it always boils down to drugs you know I heard that she was on meth and cocaine and all this up dogs bark was same thing you know she said yeah she bent over there you know that night and they got lit up so apparently she did get lit up because you know if somebody did come in I mean when you heard it so I know that she left Kirsten home alone I don't know jump sure she did but I don't like I said I didn't know and I really didn't pay much attention to dawn his wife it just does where did they live them I'm pretty trying to title order something straight about our street not started just County Court a little white house Katie called for me okay and they had two or three kids and I come home one day and was rewarding myself I did something and almost stopped it Kentucky Fried Chicken got me family pocket chicken I was going to go down and the kids when I walked up and was just the way they were eyeballing me you know they had an egg nothing I mean they were really if you did here to say to muna thought that too because I mean they were skinny so I got me a piece of chicken oz chin on it and they just go on some chicken yeah yeah yeah he said our odds they can have this yeah but I just getting a little bit better from looking back over the history I understood that Shannon's brother I guess stayed with you never sir I'm Aaron Aaron tell us about that how did that happen he was in the neighborhood you know he's looking apparently looking for you know his niece so I'm out there one day and he stops he talked you know anything about you know we just got to talking and you know he's living into them you know under bridge and dude you know I found out already that he'd that night that he'd been locked up you know so he was a suspect a mother now did you know Aaron and all before so you never met him never talked to him before either did he ever confide in you anything the KE store anything obsession he couldn't clear her sister those words will always you know I can't do this the way he said it I can't clear my sister so he was suspicious of Shane did he ever give you any any real factual information that would be beneficial to the case no I'm like I said I'm here on Mon free will if I had any information y'all give it to you does that be the same thing if something were to happen to my daughter my god yeah we've talked a lot about kind of the background I want to kind of talk to you about some new informations developing this case okay as you know detective Miller got some buccal swabs from you a couple months back or whatever it was there was a reason for that okay and we collected DNA samples from lots of people but we had submitted resubmitted some evidence from the case and got a DNA kid okay the reason those buccal swabs Riaan collected was we were trying to find the person responsible okay we we talked about had you ever been in the backyard have you ever been in the house all those things and you said you hadn't know while they were there no okay well sometimes when a person is experiencing profound anxiety they will release a small amount of gas from their upper digestive tracts if you pay very close attention in the seconds to come you might be able to catch Palmer exhibiting the symptom when he is faced with the first direct confrontation okay your DNA is in the backyard the morning that she was discovered missing okay and on her window and on the painting she'd been wearing the night before that were recovered in the backyard no no denial in the face of such staggering evidence may seem farcical but from a standpoint of pure self-preservation this is actually the correct move from where Palmer is sitting at this moment in the United States investigators are permitted to lie to suspects about the evidence they have against them it's a source of much controversy but is not a factor in play here yeah that's the truth I found it for feds but no because I don't know I didn't know and maybe didn't know him coming but we and I didn't have no business over there at all that maybe also well we need to talk about is what you were doing in that back yard that night and what happened we need to get to the truth I have no idea what you talking about either trying to help Kirsten no like I said I didn't know anything about the people at all nothing nothing never better never said I buy nothing well here's the here's our problem with that yes how's your DNA get there you're going to have to explain this we were there how I do it you were there you were there because you heard her yelling for help from your backyard can you go over there to see because you knew that her mother was a meth head and she is probably at home alone and you went over there to help know and you went to the backyard to avoid a conflict with the mother and you were just going to take care of this little girl because just like you growing up you didn't want her being treated that way yeah that's how understandable thank you become the detective should be applauded for his vivid imagination and crafting the scenario this is an alternative question investigators will routinely offer a more palatable scenario for how a crime may have come to transpire as people find it much easier psychologically to admit guilt if the admission is coupled with morally justifiable conditions this isn't just because such conditions might lead the suspect to believe they'll be met with more leniency in the courts but also because it preserves the quality of their self-concept and the way they think they'll be perceived by others the approach will not prove to be effective on Palmer and this is understandable there is nothing in the scenario he's being presented with it would explain his Bloods prisons on Karstens underwear and he is rightly calculating that there is no circumstance that would bend moral justification to the abduction presumably rape and murder of an eight-year-old girl understand that but I don't I don't understand are you getting my ideas on your blood sorry I've no idea well I wasn't there at all we weren't there either all we have is this evidence that was collected I didn't collect it it was collected 17 years ago but it's there and we have to deal with this and you're saying you were never there no there's no reason it should be there no it's not helping your cause that's going to help your cause is to explain to us how it's there I because they don't have a clue your blood is in that backyard the wing that she's discovered missing okay this is your chance Tony all right there's done that by playing just blending what happened maybe you didn't mean you know for whatever has the knife I'm better where you were there you were there was he went out of her head was I detect that period when you were going through the depression and drinking getting depressed and you don't remember he tell later fun and a little curve I don't even think I was drinking that night they'd the truth I might have been but I don't think so and I was in bed and I started sooner I don't sleepwalk this isn't a deal where he got drunk the night before and and actually went through with some urges you had you know whether you're attracted to little girl or whatever you're I've never been attracted to little girl for little boys well once again how does your but there no I don't need not do not believe me when I tell you that we have your DNA I don't you don't believe me this is our Alessi Ivor's all-time I kind of no disrespect I get the impression maybe you don't believe me when I told you so I want to just bring you the copy directly from OSBI and we've highlighted it here for you okay I just want you to understand that this isn't sitting there blood coming you see those odds those odds I can just tell you from my years of experience I've never seen at that level which means this is your DNA okay this is your detective done here is that's Karstens panties that her mom identified that she had on that night and that's where your blood was found as well as on her windowsill so this isn't just a and just so you'll know we also located some blood on the fence picket and it's still out for testing but I suspect that there's a good chance of it it'll come back to you I can't explain tell us I mean tell me what happened how did you get in I'm trying to figure it out myself but all this is no I mean you were you were insulting injured for your blood to be on her window for your blood to be in our pants Mike what I want to know from you was there some kind of a dispute between you and her I had no dealings but those people didn't know nothing about I believe I believe that but I also believe that this is your DNA on her windowsill and your DNA on our panties in the backyard let me ask you this your wife told us that every year on Christians anniversary that you're upset about it that you go to a phase of being depressed and upset about it and the reason that is it's on the news and yeah how do you feel about it but yeah I'm going to be upset I mean into missing child the if you want to carry it to your grave and not do what's right that's on you but you need to think about what you're doing because right now the other night how's my damn mud or me because I was not there and I know in that night I was in my same don't read that yeah looks pretty clear you're not a big sexy it is you can find people up from highway to the moon you remember me don't you look I've been working on this case for two years here look at me I've been working on this for two years I've got a little girl that's about her age you're just in time in this case is all I think this case is taking over me and are gonna budget it's all I think about you know and I told you earlier on you know the cases I work is trying to get short cases so my whole life I go home I have kids I kind of work a little kids you know and you seem like like like you said in our past you know conversations we've had all you do is you care about kids you take care of the neighborhood kids and you got a hard to like Mason yeah and that's what we're trying to figure out Tony is how is your ear blood your DNA get on it and you were there when I when I take your sample from you right we had an unknown male profile DNA on her panties and on her windowsill Nina don't lend themselves to me all I'm concerned about is where she act tell me I know I'm sure where she at help me fiver I mean we got pictures of window sills and window sill that day you know we go right down the line with all these pictures you know you say oh I mean everything of course today it's a totally different ballgame there would be 500 pictures of a windowsill and it's all there I mean you figure out the bridge down for kids birthday I was not there a day before bad day next day I know but what we need to figure this out yeah you do but your Mikey your loved one it can help me telling I want you to help if I could how good it is it's making me look real bad well yeah well I'm not gonna here I'm a [ __ ] I'm gonna be mean or anything but I need the truth I need the truth done need to find her I need to find Kirsten help me find her [Music] okay okay was there somebody else involved I can help you on that either I know I didn't help anybody or help myself take this girl how do you explain the blood don't fill my pinked yet let me see your if you have a score in your arm what happened there I was picking up a toilet bowl with it cracked was that last year hey Harold I'm major David I'm like I'm pretty much these guys box that guy that they're not talking to me about the interview would say well let's take a break for just a minute I want you getting upset at us we really are trying to get to the truth but I don't want you getting upset with this you take a drink of water we'll just relax for a minute okay and we'll just take a deep breath all right poising an interrogation at this point is a rare move the standard practice is to keep pressure on until the suspect offers something investigators can work with embracing the alternative question for instance or even merely walking back the extent of previous assertions in this instance however major Huff's decision to break from protocol is understandable the interrogation has now been going on for over an hour the detectives have put their best evidence in front of Palmer and continuously emphasized its magnitude but Palmer has stubbornly maintained his innocence if the only goal was securing a conviction they would have most likely charged him that the evidence speak for itself in court at this point but they are genuinely determined to recover Karstens remains their wager is if they afford Palmer some time to relax as much as possible then perhaps he will be able to better process the circumstances reconcile to his face and try to win as much favor as he can by giving them the information they need I hate can you explain this and the only thing that I'm thinking right now is yeah I'm being set up because we want to close this case that's the only things coming in my head right now cerissa well and I understand what you're trying I'm gonna be honest with you when this first step but the stuff first came out the DNA I want to understand how it works because not everybody does this so it wouldn't be uncommon for you not to know the normal person that doesn't dig plates for it that's enough the DNA that we got off of these panties that was taken all the way back when it happened okay and it was put into a container where we could keep it indefinitely all right it's been there ever since the FBI ticket Lemaitre helping us it was there okay we had what was called an unknown DNA sample we knew that it was human DNA we can tell that faster over you I think we needed it to men DNA okay and we knew it was human DNA from a male we can know that what we don't know when we got it back then we didn't know the name attached to it we didn't know whose DNA that was okay when the FBI and detective Miller went out and got those swabs okay got him they got him from a bunch of people all right you being one of them then it was tested against the sample that was taken off the windowsill and off of the paintings which by the way I don't know if they told you that your honor but also has Karstens DNA on it because little kids they do a little pee pee in their pants and skid marks so her DNA's on it your DNA's on it and it's also on the windowsill that was all done way back when this all happened it's just now that the DNA results of come back and I don't know if they told you this you seem like an intelligent man so the healthy comprehend we're talking about when we say we know this to be a fact the number sextillion what this is saying if you take a woman and you put 21 zeros it's yours any anybody in the world any scientist is going to say that that is your blood now obviously when we have a case like this we're not in a moment we're not going to lay out everything that we know and everything we have that's just not the way it works it be counterproductive and we're not going to do it there's more than this but we're going to try to get you to digest try to digest one thing at a time now having said that and do we know all the circumstances surrounding what happened that night we don't only only God the person who did it and Kirsten probably know that but I'm going to tell you this we do know that kirsten was wearing those that night we do know that your Bloods on there and her DNA's on there and that is just an absolute fact yeah I understand that this is what I think I think that you're not an evil person I don't think you're an evil person I've heard about your work history you know I know all that stuff I know you're a dependable person the hard-working man I think on this one night this one time for whatever reason that some demon inside you you made a mistake the fact that the fact is there here's what here's what how we look at it you know I'm about to retire you know I know he told you he's got to get any daughters we wanted we want to know where this baby's had we want to know where she - to her I can't help you I don't understand any of this Tony on track we need your help you have an emblem I do I smoke three packs a night one for 20 for me I if I could help you I would help you well I don't like it said in this situation I didn't know there's no good for me at all and I've done research on you know what happened when using Walters and stuff like that and I've listened to part of the interview here this morning and is there a chance that maybe you'd like to help him did it that you went over and did something he said he said some about you don't thank you sleepwalk no I'm just going through scenarios okay I mean that's kind of being sarcastic well technically I'll bring up a good point I mean um from what we've read from the report that happened there in Walters that was a pretty horrific deal that happened in they kind of chose that it's somebody that can lose it you know or their the kid that was drugs and I still pay for that that will never go away well what it comes down to is this you know we've had a lot of people in this room to interview a lot of people about that's similar to this unfortunately and there's two kinds of people we deal with there's the people that when we prevent to present the evidence that we got and they know they've been found out they stand up and take some type of responsibility and move on or they deny it in to me that's the folks that are really evil and I just didn't get the feeling that that was you but I guess I could be wrong it wouldn't be the first time I know I can't I can't explain it [Music] I'm still sitting here thinking April Fool y'all come up with April for ducks now some of this area's no personal where do you think if someone was to if someone the person that did do this wherever they take her number in a last-ditch effort to find Karstens remains detective Miller tries to elicit a confession by way of a third person account you may not have done us but where do you think the person who did would have dumped the body it's a long shot to be sure but not an approach without any president of success prolific serial killer Ted Bundy for instance first began to Vol'jin details of his crime speaking in the third person at length while still maintaining his innocence people change talk about your home life how you grew up I grew up with a single mom that raised nine kids by herself and I'm about the only one that about the only was my family that that's graduate school that has a successful job people tell me you can't do that you're a piece of crap it's not about anything like this I was not sexually molested or abused I was hated but I found good in this you know he taught me some [ __ ] and that's helped me you know go through my life I know some stuff in the carpentry you know mechanics you know my custom to this day because he hated me but jack-of-all-trades that didn't doesn't turn me into a monster too far you know something went a little too far this might perfectly encapsulate why all four investigators and their varied range of strategies have been utterly fruitless throughout this interrogation if the death of an eight-year-old who you had no prior connection to was the result of something going a little too far then what exactly was that something child murder is widely and rightly regarded as one of the most heinous crimes a human being can commit made worse only if CID murderers sexually motivated and one of the most fundamental cornerstones of obtaining a confession is being able to lead a subject to believe that if they earn the identity of a person who has committed the act in question then they don't have to simultaneously relinquish their current identity of being a good person or at least not a fundamentally terrible one the investigators have utilized minimizations alternative questions rapport building and feigned understanding they've put the pressure on they've taken the pressure off they've appealed to Palmers hope of redemption and if stressed his situations futility all to no avail perhaps one or more of these approaches may have worked if Palmer stood accused of some sort of crime of passion if he had murdered his spouse for instance then maybe he could have been talked into believing that if he embraced a particular version of events he could hold on to the self-image of something short of a monster that's something we'll never know what we do know and what the investigators are soon going to finally resign themselves to is that there's no version of events or hypothetical motivations that will let Anthony Palmer give himself permission to own this particular crime no matter how objectively astronomically I enquired the evidence is that he's guilty of it he is not capable of crossing that last psychological barrier of owning that and accepting what that says about him yeah do you have any more smoke go ahead go ahead and write together giving one more opportunity to to think about what I'm just saying okay [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] first yeah okay okay okay I want you understand - and you probably already know this you're not leaving this room down understanding none and you understand that it's Fargo needed quite a while that you're going to spend in jail just because we don't have a body doesn't mean that not able to charge you with anything I've got enough evidence against you well Tony there's there's an arrest warrant in that bill signed by a judge and it's for murder and judges don't sign that unless there's probable cause and to be fair to you okay to be fair to you you're not going anywhere you're you're being charged with murder and here's the deal on what you remember and right now we're interviewing every one of your family members you probably hear the next term we're already at your house we will have backhoes ground-penetrating sonar cadaver dogs the whole nine yards up please laugh about that yesterday what's so funny about that if y'all were to ever go in our backyard I got dogs and cats and that's every birth that backyard was that's enough that was watching something on TV like white barium or animal show no we're not going at five and this is your opportunity because I mean you ain't gonna find Kirsten half built in about Jordan her on your property anywhere where do I find her all right don't know did you black out and he took her somewhere doctor I didn't get her who did well what we're gonna do is we're just gonna we're going to leave it with and you're that person that has been over to Morris and that's the way the report is going to read because what I'm seeing from you is you could care less if we never find her and I did you can Terry let's just push it right out for me turn around forty or the chance on your back all right under arrest for murder kidnap Kirsten Apple Anthony Palma did not show much emotion this afternoon as that guilty verdict was read this verdict comes more than two decades after Kirsten Hatfield went missing from her Midwest City home on May 14 1997 Hatfield's body has never been found but the prosecution argued Palma abducted and murdered the little girl a key piece of evidence throughout this trial was a pair of Karstens panties found in the family's backyard those panties and the windowsill on the girl's bedroom had blood on them and the DNA was a match to Palma when the verdict was read Karstens mother Shannon and her sister's faith broke down in tears and they spoke with us just minutes after Palma was led away I can't explain it but we were just floored by this miracle and we are so thankful it pets our hope back into the criminal justice system thank you Jesus and thank everybody here now Palma will be back again in court here sometime next month to learn his man who murdered an eight-year-old child two decades ago will serve life in prison for her death Anthony Palma surprised the court when he waived his right to appeal his conviction Kirsten Hatfield's family tells News 9 crime tracker Jennifer Pierce there's still one mystery that needs to be solved Jim that's right Bobby Kirsten Hatfields family was not only shocked but relieved when Anthony Palma waived his appeal rights they think it's only a matter of time before he reveals where he buried their little girl 20 years ago 58 year old Anthony Palma made his final court appearance he listened as the judge told him he will serve life in prison without the possibility of parole Palma also waived his right to appeal his conviction prosecutors say it's an unusual move for what it's worth I appreciate him doing that because this gives some finality to the family don't use the word closure because there's no such thing as closure they still walked out of these doors with some questions that need to be answered a question only this convicted murderer can answer they want to know where eight-year-old Kirsten Hatfield's body is buried she disappeared from her Midwest City home 20 years ago Hatfields sister and mother looked Palma in the eye in court as they read victim testimonies they both told Palma they forgive him but want him to lead authorities to their loved ones body obviously we've been praying for years but we've been writing prayers down and we hope that he's able to get them at some point and lead them but just just so he can see how serious we are Palma remained quiet as he was led back to jail he will be transferred to do si custody and live the remainder of his life in prison I hope that that will bring him to a place of telling us so we can layer an arrest on January 11th of 2019 Anthony Joseph Palmer was found strangled to death in his prison cell only 13 months into his sentence at the Oklahoma State Penitentiary in McAlester his cellmate Raymond pilato also serving a life sentence for murder charges was found to be responsible for polymers death the motivation for the killing was deemed to be retributive his baby killers have never been smiled upon in prison his slaying could be perceived as a piece of morbid karma but tragically it served as one last devastation for the Hatfield family Palmer died before he was ever able to come around to disclosing where and how he disposed of Karstens body and to this day her remains have never been found you

Channel: Matt Orchard - Crime and Society

Views: 600,064

Rating: 4.8907075 out of 5

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Id: VOUEiLTQnLE

Length: 62min 54sec (3774 seconds)

Published: Fri Jul 03 2020

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[u/MattOrchard]

About a month ago I made a parody of the popular True Crime channel Jim Can't Swim. They liked it so much they commissioned me to try making the real thing for them. Unfortunately it wasn't quite the right fit for them (no bad blood, awesome guys!) but they gave me permission to share it on my own little channel. If you're a fan of JCS, especially if you're on their Patreon and want something to tide you over during the dry spell, then I really hope you enjoy it!

I've got at least one more JCS style vid on the way that will be an order of magnitude higher end than this rather "back to basics" project and it will be on the Daniel Holtzclaw case. If that sounds appealing, make sure to subscribe and hit that notification bell. I have a stretch target for the 20th but it will certainly be no later than the end of the month