The Capture of Eichmann and Bringing Nazis to Justice

welcome everyone to the talk show here at the 92nd Street Y you know tonight at the 92nd Street Y we're going spycraft cloak-and-dagger stuff right you know what I'm talking about right real spy stuff in fact when you walked in you realize you didn't realize what that was about you were given all code names sir you're more - hi your wife is now Wonder Woman he likes that he likes it more and there's a reason for those code names because we're here to talk about one of the most truly spectacular examples of Israeli Israel's agility with espionage and ironically for most people they don't realize I mean it was its very first experience in international espionage encounter intelligence the abduction the kidnapping of auto-5 Minh that led to the trial in Israel it was the first time that the world marveled at Israel's ability to pull off such daring do it was also the first time that the world focused on the Holocaust because the Holocaust itself and that became part of the world's focus the Israeli justice system and its rule of law became the focus of the world's interest during this time in putting a mass murderer on trial this is a special event tonight that's honoring this show that's bait that's here at the Museum of Jewish heritage operation finale and I think you might have actually received a ticket for a pass did you all receive that you should have don't miss this this is an amazing show this exhibit and we're going to talk about it tonight we're just going to give you a tease tonight of the show in fact it was extended for about a week or two next week until next week so you have an opportunity this week and I hopefully at the end of this evening you're gonna say tomorrow I'm on my unless they're closed it's it was the the show came about because the documents the artifacts about the Eichmann abduction and the trial were recently Declassified by Mossad and this gentleman here to my right this incredibly charming man very extremely personable Avner Avraham I it wasn't until I met of Nara home that it dawned on me that a spy could be that personable and charming I just I didn't teach them to be them I didn't know Margot rau if you treat me nicely I think you're a spy because this guy is an incredibly affable charming man he for many years was a specialist in a computer science and counterintelligence telogen s-- for the IDF then he served in a very similar capacity encounter intelligence for Mossad and then somehow became transformed into a museum curator we're gonna talk about how it was that this entire show was assembled by him all of the documents and artifacts that became Declassified as well his own efforts like Indiana Jones searching the world for ways to tell the story of the Eichmann kidnapping so he's also he may mention this I'll show a photo he's gonna be a movie star because operation phenom all of them over stuff yeah right well wait till after tonight because it's this operation fali is being made into a film by MGM starring Ben Kingsley as out of Iseman and Avner Avraham has two scenes at a restaurant and he's always in the right spot I don't think restaurant and the courtroom in the quarter so you'll see Abner and you'll say ah hi I see that's a cameo by the guy who came up with this whole all the artifice he served as a consultant on the on the film and he's an enormous Lee interesting guy and the show is largely based on his efforts introducing you to of Navajo and on the other side of abner is a person with exactly my last name Eli Rosenbaum Eli and I are not related although we call each other cousin and if you didn't know of him you should because you know we oftentimes invoke the words Nazi hunter but there's actually only one person that I actually know it's Eli Rosenbaum for over 30 years Eli has been the longest-serving prosecutor of Nazi war criminals in the world and and we could in fact do an entire show of just going over the cases that Eli handled for the Office of Special Investigations here is an arm of the United States Justice Department and he has been running this department through the Justice Department this end his own entity the OSI now it's called the human rights and in Special Investigations but it's though I don't run that there but that's that's been analyzed role for many many years and so he's going to clarify some of the issues here and maybe we'll talk about some more recent cases if any of you've read an earlier one of my novels secondhand smoke the character Bernard Ross is completely based on him in fact Bernard has a mustache too and I don't know where that came from before we talk about the show there's actually one person in the audience whose name I would like to acknowledge although he's going to be really furious at this we're living in a time of true scarcity of great men but my friend George Klein is one of those great men he is in fact the founding chairman of the Museum of Jewish heritage and he in fact is a major donor for to this exhibit operation finale mr. George Klein now he's the kind of guy don't flash a light on him he's the kind of guy is extremely humble and he's gonna be really mad that I did this so when you all leave tonight everyone's gonna have a big smile on your face could you say that was an amazing night there'll be one guy mad it'll be George you'll know him all right let's operation finale even the title makes sense why because the euphemistically the genocide of the Jews was called the final solution to the Jewish Question and when this uh Mossad came up with this progeny used the word operation finale as if to say no this is the finale the abduction of Eichmann briefly little summary for those of you who haven't followed this case recently or know very little about it out of Eichmann was in many ways the architect of the final solution he was the person responsible for the deportation and transportation of Jews to their death for those of you who have bought into Hannah Arendt's argument the banality of evil omen in Jerusalem please throw that book out it's utter nonsense and if you think I feel this way okay if you feel I did don't talk to my cousin Eli if he goes really crazy Eichmann was driven ideologically emotionally psychologically to kill Jews he was no he was not just a cog he was not just a bureaucrat he was not just such an accountant he was not just part of the system he was motivated to kill Jews there was nothing banal about his efforts it was pure evil in 1948 after the war Eisenmann manages to escape from the United from captivity the United States had captured him he escapes he ends up for a bit of time in Italy he goes back to Germany he's under various different aliases he ends up with papers that have him now as Ricardo Klement and in 1950 he moves buenas RS two years later his family joins him and the architect of the final solution is now speaking Spanish in Argentina and he's a rabbit farmer I know he's a rabbit farmer he ends up becoming the manager of a mercedes-benz dealership or something but at some point he starts out I think he's a water engineer at some point in 1957 and 1958 the Israelis realized that he's their operation finale is in motion he's kidnapped two years later he's drugged put into an El Al flight and sent back we're gonna show you some really cool images about things that you none of us really knew until Avner brought them to light the Argentine's of course file all sorts of protests with the ignited nations because of the invasion of their territorial sovereignty the trial takes place in 1961 it makes headlines around the world it's televised around the world it's the very very first time that the world confronts the Holocaust it's the very first time that the Israelis confront the Holocaust there are a hundred witnesses that testify all of whom are Holocaust survivors the Israelis have never heard from these people before no one ever actually was able to speak the Eichmann trial pushed people to speak 1,500 documents were submitted during the trial I've been represented himself although he had two lawyers provided for him the United Nations the protest with the United Nations actually ends up in a sort of an agreement with Israel because they did in fact kidnap an Argentine citizen the the verdict is ultimately fines I have been guilty on 15 counts of committing crimes against humanity we'll talk a little about some interesting pieces about the trial hopefully with Eli in he's sentenced to death by hanging he's hanged in 1962 it's amazing when you think about the legacy of of the Eichmann trial I'm gonna talk to Eli even his job the work that he's done no doubt has some legacy the piece of what happened that the world's consciousness is this is what you do this is how you ultimately judge people who have committed mass murder that you don't just pretend it goes away it doesn't go away legally morally Holocaust oral testimonies Holocaust memoirs a holocaust art and culture Holocaust movies all of this is really the legacy of the Eichmann trial it opened up the world's consciousness in all ways ethically psychologically morally culturally journalistically so that when you think about oral testimonies really the very first effort of that was that the world watch Holocaust survivors with numbers on their arms testifying against a man in a glass booth a bulletproof glass booth so though it will talk a little more about but that's sort of the brief summary of what you need to know for today so oven er let's start with you we're going to show you some really interesting slides again I'm just giving you a sample of this because I want you to go see the exhibit right now I want to give you too much because it's just so fascinating the documents but this is a tease abner lets us start with you you you start off as a career computer scientist a person whose real job is a true spy craft of how to make how to find people so you have some skill but you're not a trained historian no how did you end up becoming the person that would put and there's even a better example this is not your only show there are there's another 20 of these into 5 20 25 after this this was so successful most the Mossad decided we should showcase all of our great exploits and there's your guy he knows how to do it so the raid on Entebbe right all of this is now Abner has curated all of them so how did this happen seven years ago I found in the Mossad archive some few boxes with the old original stuff on operation it was exactly 50 years after the opening of the trial and I decided to do a small exhibition in the Mossad headquarters building and Prime Minister Netanyahu committee so the exhibit and said hey it should be in the Israeli Parliament in techni said so I got a phone call from head of Mossad you should go now your mission is to go to the Parliament and stay there one month so I I went to the Parliament did you change did you make the exhibit paper no I came to the to the Parliament with with the core the core of the exhibit and then people from a better foot I don't know if Shula is here should have a heart so the people from the food sort came and offer me to build a professional exhibit and it was a big success in in Tel Aviv the Museum of Jewish people and then a rich guy from Cleveland came Milt walls and told me to come to the status so we build the exhibit for 5000 square feet take it on tour yes it's very important to know that the exhibit includes all the original stuff the original documents the passports that Act menus which you'll see everything yes everything is there and if you will come you have the only chances to come during this week I will be there I will try if you come there maybe I'll give you a special tour okay yes maybe we will arrange one day or after the anyway so this is well it was a big success and so but but but it changed your career because you are no longer an official Mossad agent you are now basically taking these exhibits around the world I start they allow me to interview to the media but they mention holy my the name Avner a a afternoon that I saw an article in The Guardian where you were listed that's why I bought the AAF not calm it's very smart and every time every single every new information about the operation I got every almost every day in your like six months ago I found out there is a movie that Fred burger that his father is here now with us good evening and he got baby by the way friend burger the producer and I saw I saw article about it in in deadline and I just send email to the journalist I told her you must connect me with Fred burger and I met in New London and I became the chief Mossad consulted I just came from Argentina after three months together with Michael our owner that is Michael Randolph is one of the actors yes be in the new movie yes he's playing and and by the way I can I can say that I was in the trial because I was with him outside the courtroom he played and I was extra but I have to be in the phone I ask all the you always ask you have to ask the photographer where should the bid if I want to be in the in the in the frame by the way when they when they build the most haunted to spy I'm just saying this is a spy when they build when they build the Mossad headquarters for the movie yeah they asked me for names to put on the doors and they said the first name will be your name so when I came at the first day I asked where is my office they told me it's there so I asked the photographer the camera will see this and know so I asked to change the movie yes you will see my my name there no but I want to say seriously that making a movie is like a Mossad operation but at the end of the day instead of dead body you got a movie thank God all right let's let's take a look at some of these these artifacts and documents them again I'm gonna run through them abner will tell us what's what we're looking at so see so let me just say this it's important to know and Eli is going to dispel some of the myths about how iseman was ultimately abducted but like a Hollywood movie this is begins as a love story this is a Romeo and Juliet story where Juliet see father's Jewish and here we go here's Romeo and Juliet start so ben-gurion Prime Minister Benjamin didn't ask to bring Eichmann it starts with the love story in 57 in Germany and this lovely girl silver hair man she grew up in a in a Christian German family but her father was half Jew and Holocaust survivor and she went to a German film festival and she made this guy a Nicholas eyes man and then the Eichmann family used the same name they didn't change the name so Ricardo Klement didn't name his children last name climate no he kept it ice cream for the yogurt so this is the oldest son yes so this is the older son and you can see the picture this is a spy picture you see in the corner that we made a picture from a suitcase the outlines the photograph is shot from a suitcase up so this is the beginning of the story and of course Nicholas thought that it's a German family and the right very freely yes so so then what happens this is her father this is her father that he sent from this this box mail box box he sent letters to he started to send to lotta to dr. fritz power in Germany who is the prosecutor in Germany yes and he was also a Holocaust survivor because because what happens is the father hears the name iseman and it's the father's half Jewish and he thinks there's something not right and he's then he basically doesn't even tell the daughter to go conduct surveillance or something when when they start sending letters to photography's baba told them you should go and try to check the address in chacabuco street and and when when when lahter hermann start sending letters to the Mossad he said they gave the Mossad gave him a post office box here in New York and someone from the Jewish community used to go every day and to find if there is envelope there he should put them in another envelope and send it to Tel Aviv okay so that's why I said there's a lot of people that involved in the operation and the reason for that among other reasons is that he didn't want to be seen as mailing something directly to Germany no Germany Oh Israel or Israel for surely not Israel so he was mailing something to New York in order to so because his life would have been in danger because he had figured out that idol iseman son was dating his daughter this is just nuts okay let's go right this is how this gets done now this is event this is the not the Garibaldi Street house this is the house and chuckles this in the very first house remember that people always remember that iseman was kidnapped from Garibaldi Street but he originally lived in this house and this is actually a photo of the house the way I made this photo two months ago but what happened but happened was he ends up leaving this house and why is the reason why does he move from this house the family just bought a piece of land in Garibaldi in San Fernando okay so we lost him so all of a sudden I made picks up and goes we have no reason why he leaves and Israel thought they had him by the way Argentina if you have taken a look at a map it's huge it's big country so if you lose him you can really lose him and so I had to tell the story about how they found him again okay so first of all this is Fritz Bower the prosecutor from Germany on the left that's the photograph of ISIL men on the right face Bauer took from the German archives the all the documents that belonged to the SS file five man and he leave it on his table and the Mossad agent entered to Frankfurt and made a copy of all the documents and we use it to the trial and for also for there he doesn't officially give the documents he just for good basically says just come to my office and I'm gonna go have a sandwich yes and he goes to get a sandwich and they take photographs the entire file now Bauer is Jewish it's important to remember he was at that point I mean he's actually a guy you really respect rights is a hero is a hero risked his career and potentially his life to do this and Frankfurt's Bauer wasn't when we did that event on labyrinth of rice there to Holland to not Hollywood to German movie there's to about him so labyrinth of lies Fritz Bauer was depicted he has a big part in that movie that's what he actually looked like and I knew he was a hero of Eli I should add that although he justly gets so much of the credit for what ensued it eventually came out that he had authorization of the prime minister of the German state of Hesse aware he was senior prosecutor and people who know me know that I am NOT one who is inclined to give post-war Germany a lot of credit but I think credit is due because they were willing to release the file yes so that's the file that the Germans have on the right that's still that they have the Israelis now have that and with that after then right the key here is the left ear because you know how you watch CSI now that's not how they did it in 1958 remember the 1958 the left ear is the key earth keep the key thing explain this well we'll talk about that later but all right just remember the left ear okay so here here's the spy craft everyone here's the Leica camera on the right you see this the the suit being suitcase the briefcase can you see there's a hole in the front there's a hole in the front let's see if I can right there we go right there that's a hole and the camera is in there and so and apparently her explains this is not so easy to do so when you show up a bunch of times they took a lot of shots of nothing you know so they have to show up again to keep shooting to know how to put the suitcase briefcase in a way that you can actually get a face it's important or to say that it's our only that Michael is playing the Mossad didn't have a lot of money so they sent only one agent with this camera and he need to develop the picture try to explain what is to develop the picture yeah let me tell you something about Argentina and there's a what a backwater country nineteen 58 no CBS no Duane Reade nothing not a cellphone nothing they have to go there and get it they have to develop and wait few days for the film and by the way Florida it's in this Photoshop was in a Florida Street and I went there I try to find I asked the neighbors if they know something because I I thought maybe the shop is already there and maybe I found archiving I don't know and he developed a picture and if you continue yeah we can see here's the I love this get ready okay here we have to be our Roni on the right side together with Nikolas with no way the youngest no with Ricardo Eichmann Ricardo f1 is the youngest he named him Ricardo over for his name but he gave me IceMen of course that's the youngest Eichmann book child and it's a famous meeting that they made maybe 15 years ago in Europe today he is against the Nazis and he's against his whole family and just just to be the player s so yeah yeah it's clear let me see did I lose you wait sorry yeah go forward again see yellow yeah all right here we go sorry okay so here this is this guy he's now professor of archaeology in Germany he here he is as a little boy and now tell us how we find his older brother again how we found him well no how did we actually locate I weird them where the family was on Gera okay so so when I really came he came to the house in Chacabuco Street and he found the empty apartment and he so two workers there that told the family just left but one of the sounds is working in the garage next door and in the SS file that we got from Bauer we found that Nikolas Eichmann I got a birthday so we know in birthday you should buy a gift so the Mossad bought before last and they gave it to the to his brother and they follow the motorcycle and they found the house in here above the street and it's part of a birthday gift yes and then they came to Garibaldi Street and they took some people from the Israeli embassy and some local local Jews from the Jewish community and they came and they asked him if you know who is the owners of the land around because they want to buy a lens and to make industry use and after the capture they asked him if he felt something wrong and they said yes when you came and told me you are going to buy here lens say something it doesn't make sense it was a bad cover story but here you can see down you can see the picture that the Mossad made are only made disappear so this is the photo that they get of iseman through the briefcase on April 61 months before the capture of one month before the capture here's his file s s photo and so they were looking they needed the left ear yes so this is this is the document from the Israeli police laboratory that compare the shape of the ear and they found that is the same guy so only in this point the operation is starting and we're we have the team this is the actual team this is their that did responsible for the kidnapping you see there is a woman by the way you know one of the visitors here today one of my friends is the grandson of his Arella yes but the person who led the mission the truck the top right-hand corner dies yeah right so this was the this man was a head of the operation and his grandson is in the room this is her her oh but this yeah but but all of the most my research my research is based on personal connection you know for me it is agent if you find something in the Attic he said me he sent me new data so I have a close relation with all the family well it yeah many of these are Holocaust survivors yes yes and the only one that still alive is Lafayette tan yeah I'm sure you know him from also from Jonathan Bob yeah and if you go to the museum you'll actually see some wonderful footage of him today yes right document yes okay let's see it's important in this picture yeah I like this is that the secret not bad the the the one before yeah the city one of the secrets of the Mossad that we all look difference my parents came from Iraq for Muslim okay in 51 and I look like II rakion I speak Arabic you look for your family Iraq once Mun okay I'm a pole I'm working post you okay and ask me that and you have one knows I'm a polish you have other languages no only an American ok o ignorant I'm an American I speak one language and not even that so this agents come from home with Romanian with with the German with ok different languages and we use it as a weapon yeah but no one spoke Spanish no one spoke I think that's a key thing everyone looked different but not one person spoken which is why the moment you moment or Nava nurses the local Jewish community actually was indispensable because they they were sort of in on it without really being in on it they were sort of leading people around and showing them and you know you had a good cover E at a local Argentine and they speak Spanish and they helped usher around the team one of them I have a home salon that was the head of Shin Bet and he came with the fake German passport and all the agents came from in different days different airlines and he came with this German passport to Argentina and he got the reservation in a small hotel and the reception in he saw a German guy and the German guy saw a German puffles they all brought them from my holy land so he said where are you from they say yeah I'm from Germany and we're in Germany so he gave him of course a small of a very small village and he told him come on I've found there I told you the agility that he Israelis had to think fast on their feet here so you told him I I don't want to talk about this village anymore because the woman there break my heart and I don't want to go there don't talk with me about it yes now here we have instability a facade with the fake so this is the head of the mission and the head of Mossad and head of Mossad he's the head of Mossad of course and he became engineer but all of a sudden here he's being shown as an ll engineer and what I love here is F Lula is not even at the time a city in Israel yes and he born in afula that established only 15 years after right but it's okay for for the Mossad it works very well all right let's let's let's talk about some other things if they had had the information about this Romeo and Juliet love story in 1950 is relevant I know but if it was 1950 they couldn't have done this I think it's important to point out that the trial is in the 13th year of Israel's existence it's like a Bar Mitzvah gift to the country they have the trial you know this is their first big operation it took Israel a while to even be able to it just it's an interesting confluence of events because they would have been too young a country I think to pull this off I mean you see this was their first operation they're using very crude although who knows if the CIA had anything better than a like a camera I think let me say I've seen the CIA documents on and we actually made them public and what one finds in those records is statements of astonishment that Israel was able to pull off this mission thousands of emails their own ass see I was amazed and what they mostly wanted to know as a matter of spycraft was how did you pull it off and wouldn't tell them so it is interesting to think about that this is their first mission and I have some questions about these subsequent missions since Abner at this point is an archivist historian of Mossad missions it is important to have keep in mind the context of when this was done so soon after I mean it's only ten years after liberation that they find that they have Iceland that they see where Eichmann is and all of a sudden the hutzpah you know that we're gonna go get him I think the other thing that's important that I want to talk to Eli about later that it was only in 1952 years later that they passed a law called the Nazi crimes punishment law which said if we find a Nazi we're gonna have this underlying substantive legal principles that we can prosecute them they were actually thinking so soon as if we're gonna catch these guys maybe not today but at some point but so at least let make sure that we have subject matter and personal jurisdiction and underlying substantive criminal law although the the assumption was when they passed the law that it would be available for use against Jewish collaborators who Palestine in an Israeli couple where they never imagined the lawmakers who enacted that law that is if you ever get its hands on a real Nazi were Kermit well let's talk to Eli about this part and maybe you can help dispel some myths because there they've been out here for a long time and now that the documents are Declassified and Abner has made them available to the world what is now true for many many years people believed that the CIA was aware that iseman was in Buenos Aires and that they withheld this information from the Israelis for many many many years people believed that the West German intelligence network also was a that Eichmann was in Buenos Aires and not only did they not tell Israelis they didn't extradite amend themselves because at this point they too were thinking about its are its crimes against our people where the country that's responsible that's what the Frankfurt trials were about is any of that true did the United States know about Eichmann and where he was did West Germany no there-there kernels of truth to all of that there is strong evidence that West German intelligence learned in 1952 that Eichmann was in Argentina and they learned of the individual who knew what his alias was and they could have pursued that but Clements they had it wrong they had the name slightly wrong it was Clemmons as in Roger Clemens right Yankee fans don't discuss that much anymore but as in Clemens but they had a solid lead and could have found him Simon Wiesenthal learned the following year in 53 that Eichmann was in Argentina shared it with the Israeli consul general in Vienna it wasn't pursued by the Israelis either the CIA was told in 1958 by a German intelligence agent that they understood that Eichmann may have lived in Argentina that he might believe it or not now be living in Jerusalem highly unlikely wasn't at the same report that said that he was born in Israel yes the same erroneous no you don't have a good report if the report says that Eichmann was born in Israel right but the odds of course of Eichmann living in the 1950s either on the Israeli side of Jerusalem or the Jordanian side were between slim and none but the idea that the CIA withheld than information from Israel is is simply a historical it assumes that the CIA had some reason to believe that the Israelis would act on that information and as I said it's clear that the CIA was as astonished as the entire world was also as we know even ben-gurion 's cabinet the Israeli cabinet was astonished learned right that the Mossad had captured and will take up all important to say that you mentioned that the family joined him in 52 yeah and if the family came they got a green light to counteragent inna so that's why maybe the Germans knew for maybe for the first time that he's there yeah but there's also something that I read I think it's something you wrote actually that one of the boys was told in order to dupe the family into moving that we're moving to a place that there'll be so much open space you can ride horses so the Germans somehow report said that this was northern Germany right the ideas of where we're we're in Germany can you ride horses northern Germany right that was Wiesenthal actually in that was season of it he went from believing correctly that Eichmann was in Argentina to concluding chronically on the on the eve of the Mossad apprehension Eichmann in Argentina that no in fact iseman was in in German well that actually great comes to my next Eli Rosenbaum question is this story about Beason thaw many of you may know who Simon Wiesenthal is I mean I'm telling you who the real Nazi hunter was that's Eli Rosenberg but Simon Wiesenthal took credit for giving the information to the Israelis for decades and Abner knows that that's not true and you know that that's not true and in fact even even visa Thal initially denied that he and then all of a sudden what happened he decided to he changed his story and decided because the Israelis would never cop to it he'll take credit as author and I have discussed in you and I as well there was this void this informational void after the Israelis startled the world by announcing in 1960 that they had located and apprehended Eichmann and brought him to Israel the Israeli government really didn't want it known at first how this had happened they didn't even want it to be known that it was a government operation they were happy to have people think that may balloons were independent operators that they said it the reason that you can't judge us at the UN is that these were private citizens so into that void stepped mister Wiesenthal who deserves our gratitude and admiration for so many things know this but not this this is the case that made him famous but he really had no involvement in in the actual locating or apprehension and as you've pointed out I forgot it was actually his letter cable that said that he thought iseman was in northern Germany riding horses with his kids can I enter with just one point the the the slides are wonderful but they they don't really do justice to the magnificence of the exhibition yeah I'm nervous but happy I saw this last year when it was in vogue in Skokie at the Illinois Holocaust Museum I saw it again here when it was brought to New York by the Museum of Jewish heritage and Beit hot food so at the Museum of the Jewish people in Israel two of the world's premier museums it's mesmerizing every time I see it you have only one or two weeks left but you can come happen oh yeah Saint Tampa it has one more stop in st. Petersburg Florida who would want to go to Florida this time of year so this is your chance actually not now I'm gonna go to more documents but can you just quickly tell us whatever happened to father and daughter the the I mean the the Romeo and Juliet story the day they moved to other place because they were scared yes and and they send this and they send Sylvia and as far as I know she lives in the state and she's she's still alive maybe here in New York I try to contact her and she don't want to the family I have every connection with the family I met them in Argentina and they don't want they don't want me to meet her they also said they wanted they try to change the history in the said she was only 12 years old and it was a love affair but it's not true because I have all the documents and all right this looks like a modern bus and a modern bus station it is but in fact it's it's the line that I've been used the the bus that you use every day when you came back from home he got a routine and routine is a enemy because if you come every day at 7:30 and you use the same bus the same bus station so the Mossad is waiting for you well yeah so it's very easy so you just wait for him 7:30 and you don't show up in the in the day but it's important to remember that even today in - hours it's still bus 2 or 3 you know how the 104 Broadway bus it's the same bus and that's auspicious and that's the same station that that I've been with that now with you'll have to see the movie for this but some of you may have known this part of the story there's really it's very dramatic that the the actual abduction very famously a the most famous chokehold in the history of the world Peter Malkin was famous for this chokehold that he puts Eichmann in the idea right was that iseman gets off the bus and then he walks to his house they staked this out there's two cars waiting for him both Mossad my memory was that one of the cars was supposed to pretend that they had trouble under the hood Peter Malkin says to iseman sir do you know if you can help me with mom actually listen you know three of the most famous words in law enforcement history before Malkin may he rest in peace I got to know him jumped Eichmann he said moment ethos in your last thing I've been heard before use this in your so but but I also thought was told that Eichmann Felton he sent something right did Malcolm say oh no he didn't send some no they put him in the car and so they chokehold put him in the car but the key thing to keep in mind is that on this day one day I come in so late yeah he doesn't show up at 7:30 yeah he didn't show up and they decided to wait until 8:00 and of course like in the Hollywood movie he didn't show up because he late I never remember the the scene with Ben Kingsley looking at the sky and the bus is coming and he forget to get on the bus Ben cake seriously we don't know what out of heisman why is the you think he was at a meeting or something but he the meeting as so few few minutes after a TV show up with the next bus but they decided to stay this decided to stay of course they had a sense that he's coming back yes and so they capture him they brought him to the safe house and they start of course immediately this so that these name is Ricardo Klement and they start asking what is your name Ricardo Klement but even in the car I understand when they knock him out there looking for scars on his body yeah yeah yes Rafi found his car in the back seat yes like theirs they can't even wait to confirm this so they start looking for scars on his body and they're so excited by this yes the they take him to the safe house they end up staying ten days in the safe house in days and seven days longer than they want but but when they questioned him they asked him like a half an hour many many questions he was so tired and they told him what is your number in the SS what is your soldier number in the SS and he said every number immediately like like I asked you what yeah and he said the real number and that's why and then he said my name is adilyn and I would like great red wine right it's right he apparently asked him a bunch of questions and then they finally throw in the last one what is your SS number and then he gives them this and then he says my name is Otto pikemen and I'd like red wine this is uh let's see this was his mercedes-benz ID and this was his local ID for a brontosaurus right oh I love this so these people tell us who these people are first of all we know the the evil main girl get it yeah I know what a berry I will talk about my egg was on the right back but here we have people from the Israeli embassy that some of them took part in the operation did they work in Argentina there worked in Argentina this picture is from but they're Israelis yes Israel isn't from the Israeli embassy and but they don't know what's going on no they don't know ISA hell stayed a lot in the embassy he used to sleep there also and he used to come every day and ask someone to help him with something like the seed guy yeah you want to mention him yeah now we're gonna definitely do that we'll do it we're definitely gonna do that but but it's a whole new that I that Mengele is living in Argentina he got the address and he came to the safe house and it told the team let's bring mingle in the same plan and I said no it's too dangerous because ben-gurion asked for one big name for one big trial that's it this is super important they actually know that Mengele is living in Buenos Aires also at the same time yes I mean this is extraordinary right because everybody's thinking well how are they everyone thinks that Manuel they think of Paraguay it's they're actually neighbors essentially in fact that on the house is the kind of house that Mangal is this one this is one of his first house this is where he would hold the house in sixty but it's the first house in urgent right and so it's it in fact it's Ben Gurion who says we just want one yes we want to do one trial that's why the Mossad the one that tell them was sad what to do is the Prime Minister until today and the Ben Gurion said I want one one Nazi for one part I don't want to see I don't want to hang people in Jerusalem one is enough and everything that every time that you do after it would be far away from the big pad and look what happened with the me on you are you kidding not to that part of the do no no yes later on so so you were gonna say something about Mengele no just to make sure that everyone who's here or watches this on the internet knows he was the notorious experimenter and selector of Angel of Death and if and was celebrated in many Hollywood movies from the boys of Brazil Marathon Man in the 70s he was probably the most wanted fugitive in the entire world and many people would argue I would know more about their sir care more about thinking about that one might think that would you think that Mengele would be a more important target no you still think I'm in was they made the right call Korean made the right call it was a target just for killing all right bring in photos right well that's an important point we have to talk about the distinction between you know I don't have people in this room think well what's the relationship they could have just shot Eichmann in the head when he gets out of the bus and go home but instead they go to this incredible and we're gonna get to this in a minute the difficulty of getting him out of huayna saris this is really what the sequence at least but it supposed to say that is how it came to the embassy and say hey can you help me you come tomorrow don't come to the embassy tomorrow come with your wife Braska twin fruits and wine and I want you to sit in the front of the house he didn't tell him it's Mengele and I want you to look and spend all the day and then he asked other guy from the embassy can you address with the overall and you'll like walk in the telephone company and I want you to enter and check this house and knock on the door so it's amazing I mean today we don't do it today I mean we don't we are very far from the embassies but it is it's it's it's interesting because the we'll talk about that the Mossad stayed by the way all of them cultural attache that's amazing yeah 32 cultural attache in the embassy now this this is interesting because ll plays a role in this they didn't know that they played a role in this it just so happens that in 1960 our gen Tina has its hundred and fiftieth birthday and the Israelis decide ben-gurion decides this is our cover for the Eichmann abduction we we are going to send an official delegation of Israelis with Abba Eban our foreign minister to celebrate Argentina's birthday and that plane is gonna take Eichmann back am i right that's that's what they did there's what was the premier R for a long I'll be even has no idea this has happening he thinks he's there for the birthday party was the first flight for that Al and it was fully booked because the Mossad bought all the tickets but there but there's nobody on the plane except for the delegation coming to the birthday party yes and we're telling the Argentinians we are starting a new route yes new distant a new destination is tremendous the Israelis now will be flying to Buenos Aires and this was this was the ruse yes and you know the second flight was two months ago with Netanyahu when he came it took a long time for that hablar you should tell them how they got Eichmann onto the plane yeah we're gonna we're gonna do that so this is important because this woman was head of ll in Buenos Aires yeah not knowing what she was doing for a living she walked furious in an aisle and she came with her husband you can see and the small kid and they lived in Argentina he was engineer he works in a local company in a very nice house and she got a phone call from al al would you like to be the manager of our new lovely destination even the one that called her didn't know that it's all fake and and she arranged everything she also these are other friends yes work these women all our work for L ow no no no they came with the plan these pictures is when when they crew came with the first plane they landed and they made some shopping yeah so so so the kidnapping happens it's ten days there's a delay this is the part that Uihlein will definitely want to talk about oh this I love this photo so here you have to see cuz you all know what Abba Eban looks like in the front here they are celebrating Argentina's birthday with these Mossad in the safehouse trying to figure out when to get on the flight to go back to Jerusalem right and it looks pretty official to me you wouldn't know the Argentinians would not have thought that this is that there's a scam going on by the way you you missed the big party that the Mossad arranged in the same day of the capture of May 11 it was a big big party for the all the military attache in Buenos Aires and even the American attache the American military attache took part in this party and it was the alibi for our military attache because otherwise why would he be on yeah because he was in the in the party at the same time so and it was a big search I'm sorry big search for Eichmann right the family went to the police and said he's been kidnapped I thought they did no no not yet no they didn't they didn't go to the police to try to find first they did it with the German emigres community they found the glasses near the bus station I mean they knew that he'd been kidnapped they just didn't know what to do about it at the time this is really my this is my favorite photo explain this so this is very important because you have to explain how do you get Eichmann passport and get him out of Buenos Aires yeah this is how you do it and first of all I I won't say I'm very proud that I director Chris Weitz agree to change the script of the movie and to put this scene and on the right side on the upside you can see a Shin Bet agent and he looks like this because they told him you are the only one that looks like Eichmann we are going to change the caliber and do that smirk yes the stork like the same guy on the right side and he enter is Merkel is this Merc he landed in Argentina with a lull and he just took the passport and replaced the picture and you will see this scene in the movie also yeah and also they darkened his hair yes right because he's really on the bottom here this is really what he look like right yeah so they darkened his hair he was the more closest so how do we get it get him on the plane he ought to do this ahh it's how we got him honorable so the idea was to bring him and see it like a sick crewmember now if you are sick usually what you do if you're very very sick you go to go to a hospital you need a hospital record hospital yeah right so it's and wake up in the morning and he's so the first guy in the embassy told him I want you when you come tomorrow to the morning you have to feel very bad and you fall down and the security will ask for ambulance for you and you are going to the hospital and you need to stay overnight and when they release you in the morning I want the papers and after two days he came with the papers and they changed the name Ricardo Klement so they brought him as a sick crew member and they didn't roll directly to the to the plane and it was drugged he was drugged and tell us this is what this is that's the needle this is the needle that drug has the needle that the doctor that took part in the operation twice supposedly Yona yeah you know by the way in the movie he became a blonde lovely girl oh sure I understand his family isn't happy about yes yes they don't talk they took Hollywood talk artistic license and made her attractive blonde and so now that family's upset so he committed suicide unfortunately six years ago and I got a phone call from the deputy of Mossad I want you to bring this needle but also you have the goggles yes the goggles I see the goggles at the exhibit also years ago I found the goggles and this is a rare picture that we are only made you know usually the Mossad don't usually the Mossad agent bring a personal private camera and they make some pictures that's why I got it from the family it's not official for myself all right let's just finish up some of these photos this is the man in the glass booth that's Eichmann in Jerusalem on the far right up here this is Gideon Hauser another hero of Eli Rosenbaum he was the Attorney General look at the policeman the key to the thing Abner loves this anecdote so I'll help deliver it notice that the policemen have mustaches and I've no tell us why this is because of them whereas pardek and you know Weiss Farah diba they don't relate it to the Holocaust because if you put two Ashkenazi together with him they will kill him they were not protected and the mission you know you cannot make it trial with a dead body so so they put this father and now when I was in Cleveland last year I got a phone call from a guy and they told me my father was one of the policemen and he passed away and I have the suit so you can see you can see the suit here I told him I use father yes he said my father came from Iraq so this is the story about and the man on the right Nicky Goldman Mickey Goldman and you see the number that was tattooed on his arm at out and he would also testified he didn't testify but he was the subject of testimony he was a member of the special Israeli police unit that investigated the case right in the movie New York in the movie we got this tattoo and they asked me for a number I call a friend of mine that lost a lot of family members in the Holocaust in Hungary I told him I wanted to give me your father number so I took the number and he needed to well to sign a five pages MGM agreement and the number is in the movie the real number all right this is our last photo yes this is actually a blur with all the movie stars been kingsy here actually on the left up you can see that you can see also my kid me and my cats we are waiting to the trial you see we took part in the trial so you're gonna be able to all see this movie eventually MGM yeah we got that first shot there we go that's what I want so just briefly the trial let's talk a little about that in Eli you should jump in took some notionally didn't talk about the Holocaust no that's why I do this for a living that's what happens this is true they do not they did not israel's only case of capital punishment was Iseman I love that anecdote about saying ben-gurion says we don't want to hang to hang one Eichmann never admitted any personal guilt he was following orders just following orders little cogs in the machine a small cog in logins again Eli can explain this and I four decades of my students know that that excuse didn't work at Nuremberg either so there was already precedent that just following orders is not an excuse but he did he did confess that he was in charge of the transports yes he acknowledged his organizational responsibility as the guy who perfected the efficiency of the German system but he's very proud of that but but not not in the courtroom but yes not in the core then before that he they the the Israeli Supreme Court alike does not find him personally guilty if I remember they held him only responsible again for the order of killing anyone in particular right there was no finding that the final solution was his idea or that he ever fired a gun at somebody right but he was a principal implementer of the plan to exterminate the Jews of Europe and that was confirmed by by the by the court this was you know a trial that completely mesmerised the world it was the first televised trial in world history with all due respect to folks who used to say that the OJ Simpson trial was the trial of the century sorry I'll probably go with Nuremberg on that but after that it's gonna be the Eichmann trial it was a major change in the way atrocity trials were presented Nuremberg and its progeny tended to rely on captured documents they were hardly any survivor type witnesses at the first Nuremberg trial now why was that I'm not sure why I think they they they wanted primarily to convict these people based on their own words that they couldn't escape from also there weren't so many witnesses available as to the actions of say a Goering or you know the all these top-level Nazi officials there yeah there are people who also think that they didn't want to make it too Jewish but I was about to say also the Holocaust was certainly not the focus of the Nuremberg trials and whatever Holocaust was not the basis of the Nuremberg it was covered but it was certainly not not not the focus this trial of course very different the Shoah was the focus of the trial and somewhat controversially Gideon Hausner decided to present the entire story so to speak of the Holocaust not just those parts for weekly Eichmann was we vitamins attorneys objected to and even the judges had limited patience for but it was a tremendous service I think to unity this way the Holocaust was on trial itself not just Eichmann and it taught a new generation about the that had been committed I would submit that it moved the Holocaust to the central position of world public discourse and scholarly discourse on the subject of the crimes of the Nazis they weren't just it wasn't just a piece of what the Nazis did along with other crimes against humanity with war crimes and and aggressive war this was their most infamous most horrible crime of all and this is really now sort of what the Nazis are known for in in our prosecutions and to Justice Department we have kind of tried to adopt the best of both worlds so our cases have been based on documents but also in virtually every case almost every case we have brought survivors to the courtroom these are some of the bravest people I've I've ever met in my life people who are willing to reopen these psychological wounds that can't ever heal as you've written about so eloquently and they they testify so that judges who have never experienced anything remotely approximating the Holocaust can begin to understand the reality of these crimes as they were experienced at the time on the ground so to speak there is a yet another argument about Nuremberg and about why they didn't rely on Survivor testimony in addition to the ones that we just discussed in that in and this I know is fascinating to you because you've never deployed this idea that we don't trust people that are too emotional that we don't trust you because you've lived this horrendous thing and we don't know if we can I mean you know even historians historically when it came to understanding the Holocaust were much more interested in interviewing the perpetrators than the victims it's twisted it's totally twisted but they say we don't think you're gonna tell absolutely the truth because you're so overwhelmed and not unlike oven errs point about the moustaches we don't want Ashkenazi Jews behind iPhone because they'll strangle him and that was another thing that the trial a changed not only did it move the Holocaust to the central focus to be the central focus of discussion of Nazi crimes it moved survivor remembrances to the heart of that conversation right where we read it where they are to this right the show of foundations the fortune off testament oral histories probably none of that would have happened I have two more questions one for each of you and then we'll take something from the audience so this goes a little to the sort of the legacy of the Eichmann trial you've now curated 25 are you of the view that this was the signature and Mossad operation remember that it has a lot to compete with the raid on Entebbe it by the way is also coming out as a film in the next month not if he tells us he may have to kill us yes you this guy doesn't look thank you careful what you think one of these two nice to kill but on tabbies coming out as a film the the Mossad bombing of Iraqi nuclear reactor right there's been a number of these of course all the milk the the host Munich hits bringing the Jews from me to go the Ethiopian rescue mission where does this one where does this one fit in your mind know this operation finale is this Israel's signature Mossad signature achievement for the reasons that Eli said that even the CIA couldn't believe this it's it's the first time that the Mossad made a big operation like this and I think that because it's related to the trial and related to the Holocaust and in Israel we have the left and really have the right but in still today when you talk about the Holocaust we are all together and think about me that my parents came from Iraq and I'm feeling like a Holocaust survivor and I think that today devoted your life to this now yes I devoted my life to New York but the Holocaust survivor became very old and they cannot talk and tell the story and we need to find a new way so here we in the Jewish heritage museum I can say we have beside this exhibit also special exhibition that you can talk with the Holocaust survivor talking with the screen but it's it's it's a new technology that you can narrow it's part of this exhibit yeah no it's not it oh it's another and I would like also to mention a good friend of mine Sammy can you stand up Sammy Sammy is a Holocaust survivor but he cannot remember anything he cannot remember it was 2 years old and the Nazis used to take him from his mother every day to make experience anyway I mention him because if you can talk with him after he will agree to give you a special tool if you're coming during this week talk with him because he's making a lot of special tools and he's really number one Thank You Sammy there's just so much to talk about just briefly after the Israelis left in the with the El Al flight three Israeli Mossad agents stayed behind studying and they continued to look for I firmly Bret Mengele so think about I mean at this point this became this international sensation there's all of a sudden UN resolutions condemning this tiny Israel for invading this territorial sovereignty of Argentina and three Mossad agents are still walking around trying to find Mengele okay they never gave up I think that I know I'm sure that Ben Gurion made his announcement too early he asked the head of Mossad how many people know that I've been in Israel he say 50 so he told him together with the wife is 100 in Israel 100 people less than however we'll talk about I'm going to make announcement anyway so had he waited what do you think would have happened I'm talking about now the three agents taking a bus in Brazil and they saw someone holding newspaper with the picture of Eichmann on the front page and they realize that the story is out and they need to go home okay so that's why we need to clap to cancel the mangling operation because that's how they learn because they didn't have a soul but Bengali didn't disappear because ben-gurion announcement mainly disappeared because all the all the NASA's community knew about the Eichmann disappear and they try to find him and I think that in this point during the ten days he disappeared so Eli which anecdote would you like to tell the audience the Otto Albrecht von ball shrink or the Simon Wiesenthal World Jewish Congress anecdote which is her favorite I think I'll go with the von bolt swing and auto I'll brush von bolt swing was one of the first people we prosecuted when my office was established in 1979 my former office OSI we found him on our own he had been an advisor to Eichmann before and during the war and was responsible for a number of anti-jewish initiatives so to speak that I can adopted after the war and we can say it now he was employed by the CIA he came to the United States as you might imagine he was very concerned when Ike moon was captured and brought to trial in Israel there were concerns at the CIA as well not only about him but about the West German government particularly since one of the senior aides to the German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer hunt Skokie had a Nazi past and it the CIA took that concern to the point of prevailing upon Life magazine which before the Eichmann trial had the world exclusive publication rights to Eichmann's Argentinian memoirs persuaded life to delete any any reference to to go up camp this is something you and I have talked about for many years so your office starts in 1979 the art the the the the people that pushed the Nuremberg trials was the United States the Allied powers we were the focus of that we were we had a chief prosecutor former Supreme Court judge existing Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson after Nuremberg the Israelis put together a statute that says if we ever find a Nazi they had other reasons for it Nazi collaborators we will have the underlying subject matter jurisdiction substantive criminal law to prosecute the United States doesn't do that the United States creates instead the displaced persons Act which says along with the Holtzman Amendment that's named for Elizabeth Holtzman who used to be a congresswoman here in Brooklyn that if we talk about heroes yes another hero live something we don't remember about Liz but we should the Holtzman Amendment which says if you are Nazi and we find out that you lied on your naturalization application for a visa and you procured your visa illegally we will denaturalize and deport you why didn't we just create language statutes just like the Israelis did why did you spend your career deporting people instead of either killing them or at least or at least and I mean I don't mean I don't mean that casually I mean that directly killing them you know because I do think and I've written a book about revenge and I think it does raise an interesting question had even been shot out of the bus instead of put on a trial would it have been less moral to do it that way it might have provided it would have been not sensational the world wouldn't have learned the lessons of the Holocaust oral testimonies would not have been all of the things you've just said but it wouldn't be the first targeted assassination certainly President Obama knows about that our war on locky was killed that way we did not kidnap Osama bin Laden and put him on trial we did not kidnap on locky and put him on trial we just used a drone so the Israelis here make a decision no we're gonna go to the trouble to drug them fake everyone out empty ll plane and bring him there did tell us if you know sure yeah of course by 1960 and 59 Eichmann was not a threat to to humanity the way Osama bin Laden was and our Lackey so those aren't strictly comparable situations so you know for another day we could discuss the advantages of adhering to the rule of law which are substantial for so many reasons I do want to say that the reason that we don't have a criminal statute in the United States that covers World War two Nazi crimes is because we have this wonderful old document as you know the United States Constitution that prohibits the enactment of ex post facto laws this was not a problem in Israel because they didn't have a constitution I think they still don't but we ignored it numbered because we wasn't right but it but you who were we to ignore ex post facto legislation when in fact we're the architects of that and then in fact the German defense attorneys made that argument and it worked you know for an international tribunal we were prepared to accept that that was not governed by US law but as a practical matter we're talking about just briefly just because I think we're talking professorial here just so you'll know the Constitution says as an ex post facto part of the Constitution which essentially says you can't punish be punished for a crime that wasn't a crime at the time you committed it and there was a great idea except when you're dealing with Nazis and we only with genocide and they're your problem because the Nazis position was at Nuremberg we said whoa there was no anti-genocide law at the time we did this and so therefore you Americans know about this ex post facto law you can't punish me for a crime that didn't wasn't a crime at the time that I committed even if I did commit it it wasn't criminal at that time and there are scholars who posit that had Congress passed the criminal law despite the ex post facto law it might have been constitutional the House Judiciary Committee considered that possibility and decided it was too too risky and therefore we don't have that all right we're gonna take one quite away anecdote fell for the law yes you came from the law it was so important the Eichmann trial that when they when his lawyer used to come for vacations and he landed in Cologne the Mossad agent used to wait for him in the in the airport and follow him in Germany just to make sure that nothing happened to him that he really come back and will continue all right we're gonna let Eli have the last word it's actually based on a one of the questions it's funny when I've had a lie talked to my students he always used you didn't I try fed you this you didn't take the one he usually says to them because we take the position in the United States that if you're given the crimes that you've committed we deem you unfit to walk our streets and breathe our air which sounds great but I always find that unsatisfying I think killing Nazis are still better anyway so give us one anecdote and you know which one I'd this person wants to know about the numbers at what's your favorite of the cases over your 30 years Wow you might have your own but do you have any interest in telling the Vitas Gerulaitis story I could tell that the Vitas Gerulaitis story it's a New York story remember Vitas Gerulaitis famous tennis player is of interest perhaps to New Yorkers because he lived but it's not your favorite it's not my favorite his grandfather turned out to be a major Nazi war criminal who couldn't be prosecuted for anyway but who was very much in the news after he was exposed in the 1970s the strange thing about Gerulaitis I'm remember he's no longer alive is that he got into a public controversy when he got angry at a line judge a line judge at Forest Hills who the tennis Jewish and perhaps he knew because he exclaimed to the press afterwards that that man should be thrown in an oven and burned to death oh that's pretty severe understand that was in those days you there was no politically correctness but but that's very politically incorrect if you'll permit me to end with two quick anecdote no no I don't know you can't I can't finish the Gerulaitis does anyone know how a Gerulaitis carbon monoxide poisoning Jeff's accident right now I always wondered whether Mossad did that too very quick Eichmann anecdotes that I one is I had the great privilege of knowing both isser Harel whose grandson is here I look forward to meeting him and Peter Malkin who grabbed Eichmann I remember having breakfast with her L in the 1990s in Tel Aviv and then we left together in a taxi people in Israel have the same healthy disrespect for government officials that we have here but we get in the cab and there's an older cab driver and after a few seconds he does a double take and he asks the man next to me in in Hebrew and I know enough to understand this he said are you is Sorel and very modestly or else's yes well that man went you know knots he was so proud to have the greatest Sorel in his cab and it's the only time in my life that a cab driver I have witnessed a cab driver refused to accept a fare would not let us pay the other is Peter Malkin who used to tell the story when asked well what was the thing you were most worried about in terms of failure of the Eichmann mission and he said frankly my fear was living in a small country like Israel everybody would learn that I had failed and they would point me out and say see that guy that's the man who almost caught Eichmann I couldn't do it I I can say that Malkin was here in in in a foreign embassy you know I I know I think in Tel Aviv he came to one of the Romanian embassy or something like this and he told the embers of ambassador this is the first time that entering to the embassy from the main door all right the talkshow is we're about to say good night I want you to really encourage you to go see the exhibit I hope amazing I hope we enticed you to see it yes sir you seem to want to say something and I think this will agree that other than unlike Hana Arendt who should be mentioned again yeah everyone who actually encountered Eichmann during the war who would speak about it afterwards agreed that he was tenaciously dedicated to exterminating every Jewish human yet hot our rent saw something else how was that possible we want to say good night to Eli Rosenbaum and after / Hama you

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Published: Tue Jan 16 2018