The Candace Owens Show: Marc Lamont Hill

be fine I'm not ready Gina we're gonna roll just you know am i good from this distance yeah you're fine you're casual you're good ready okay ladies and gentlemen we are rolling in to another episode of the Candice Owens show and one that I am very excited to bring to the forefront of the discussion I always make the comment that there is not enough discussion between black conservatives and black liberals for whatever reason I invite so many black liberals on to my show and despite their willingness to tweet at me to tweet about me to write articles about me they never take me up on that offer which always leads me to the question do they actually believe what they believe you see I'll go into any room and defend my positions because I actually think what I say that I believe is true I'm very excited that one person I instantly message on Twitter and he said yes let's do it come on I'll come right on the show Marc Lamont Hill Marc Lamont is a professor a tenured professor at Temple University he teaches Media Studies Marc Lamont Hill welcome to the Candice Owens show thank you for having me I think it's good because people need to realize you can have a discussion with somebody that disagrees with you and and I actually one person I forgot to mention that disagrees with me but we have so much love between each other it's killer Mike I think he's one of the greatest leaders in the black community we are totally on different pages he was Pro Bernie and I'm pro Trump but he cares and he knows that I care and we read a lot of the same books and we have slight disagreements but ones that are I think important to talk about publicly so let's get right into obviously the hot topic of today which was the killing of George Floyd the protests that have ensued all across the country because of that and my comments which seemed to have shocked the world about me not believing that he was deserving of this martyr status meaning for funerals I think now we're actually at five funerals publicly a golden casket the Vice President showing up at his funeral or I think eventually he decided to just a video the former Vice President Joe Biden and celebrities there and I thought that that actually sent not a great message publicly yes what did you think about my comments oh if I was watching them this morning again though they were off base I think I think you pointed out some things that may be factually true but are beside the point so to say for example that George Floyd had a criminal past true right I don't know whether there's drugs in system or not you know I want to see a little more evidence but let's let's let's say for a moment that the autopsy reports did we say you're correct privately so far right I'm not I don't see an argument for why that should make any difference now you conceded that what the police officer did was wrong which I appreciate it because if we don't start there that's not a good faith argument right then it's like what are we talking about the problem is those things can be a district can be used as a distraction from the the point that you did touch on which is that this was wrong and that state violence is wrong no matter who it's against and to me whether he was on drugs whether he robbed ten stores is irrelevant to this particular conversation yeah no I think so for me I think it's actually very relevant and not to I I wasn't saying not to overshadow the conversation I actually didn't think that because shadow that the conversation was being overshadowed because it was the actually the first time that there was a full consensus left and right that this police officer was wrong there was nobody disputing it I mean even in the Trayvon Martin situation you had left and right different opinions different beliefs of what actually took place this one it was just rock-solid across the board everybody agreed including the the police station I mean they had the chief of police came out and said that it was completely wrong of you know who was a black chief of police in Minneapolis the fastest process ever to investigate it and to get him arrested so I mean in terms of justice being served it was immediate so what I didn't understand you know was why we had the response of protests when justice was served right you're usually protesting because you've been aggrieved or there's been a wrong and you're looking for something to be corrected this was not that circumstance and then on top of that there was a glorification happening of him where people were actually saying that this was eight he was a hero we had little kids wearing t-shirts calling him you know George Floyd hero in these marches I was looking at these t-shirts and that's wrong I just I can't get behind that this I mean if your point is that you're defending black lives this whole platformer supposed to be about black lives George Floyd spent his entire life harassing black people and and destroying black lives so how I just don't see how it can be both it's I would disagree with that let me so the first point is their justice justice wasn't done yet right one officer at the time of the protest one officer was arrested they were three who stood there with their hands in their pockets doing nothing watching him die they were complicit and there wasn't there was no there what they were fired right but they weren't arrested so you felt they should have been arrested immediately oh they were rookies so I I mean I was trying to be a little sensitive to the fact and I still don't know how I feel about that like they were rookies it was their third or second day on the job this guy was a senior you know it had a senior position he's been here for years they were probably you know second or third day I'm a job you're looking at this guy and you're going this must be the right thing to do you know but if everyone in America could see that this was the wrong thing to do like you said bipartisan agreement that this is not what we're supposed to do again there's there's a herd mentality there's a gang mentality it often occurs even with police sometimes especially with police where you see something awful happen and nobody wants to be that person to say hey stop but that's the job especially a rookie though but I can't let him off the hook even if I was at if I was my first day at Starbucks and I saw a manager stuffing cash into his pocket my first second day I'm not I'm not gonna be the person to raise that issue because you're just going I don't know if this is supposed to be going on but I'm gonna keep my mouth shut and again I think that's a bad example because that's not doing harm what if you saw on the first day the manager spitting in someone's coffee you wouldn't say oh I don't maybe we do think you could imagine as that's happening live then somebody might just be looking around versus if I've been there for a few years I'm gonna be like what the heck did you just do because you're not comfortable good job your first cup day everybody's a new person so I was a much more sympathetic to the ones that we're standing by I'm not defending them but I'm saying I tried to be a little more understanding Derek so when you look at and you're like this guy has been working on his police force forever he's the one doing all this stuff they just looked like uncomfortable idiots and that's what they I think they but that's why I'm going to the point of people didn't feel like justice it was like oh we got our justice bullets tear up anyway can I say can I curse people like that you know we you know we just tear stuff anyway people who wanted accountability from these four officers and they didn't get it and so in whether we think was fast or slow is not really the point I'm just saying I would dispute the idea that justice was solved and we can we kept going anyway the other point here that you raised which is an interesting one is about well actually me to say one thing about the first point the other thing here was these protests weren't just about George Floyd they were about they were about a sea of issues and this was like the court the culmination point which often happens in history we can talk about that the other thing though I think about raising them to the level of hero first of all I think whenever someone is eulogized right these were national public eulogies we don't say yeah but right when we eulogize reagan right we you know as a nation there were many people who chided black folk you know and people on the left for criticizing policy say wait there's a time for that but while we criticizing him now in time of mourning why are we doing this here why are we doing this now so yeah I don't think at George Floyd's funeral we should be raising his criminal his criminal history but again I don't see how that's relevant to the issue here no what no one was saying that he was a champion of black kid was entire life the point was regardless of who he is his life mattered his life was worthy of protection in some ways I am actually interested to think about what it means for us to fight for someone who wasn't perfect because very often we only fight for the the the middle class cisgendered straight heterosexual guy who's going to college on Monday like Mike Brown and we we have to put Trayvon on a horse to say that he didn't need to die and it's like that's not the point you shouldn't have to be perfect I think it is the point because and this is my problem with with our community is that the be no black Americans are hypocrites we're hypocrites right so you say oh well it's not the point well where where were we on the issues of kids getting shot actual innocent black victims being killed you know every every weekend every day in the inner cities nobody cares you want if you want to give somebody a funeral and you want to have it be five days long why not do that for Tyshawn Lee the nine-year-old kid who was wearing his school uniform playing basketball when he was lured into an alley by you know an older black man who then shot him point-blank in the head two times because he didn't like his dad and it was like you know his gang pirates nobody cared you know so this whole idea there's this uprising because you care about black lives don't you care about black lives you like the political expediency of caring about a black life about a black life if and only what if and only it only when it they died at the hands of a police officer died at the hands rather of a white person because it doesn't even have to be suffer as long as it's a white person but we kill ourselves faster nobody cares see what can you name can you name the last ten black people that died of homicide in this country because it wasn't it wasn't George Floyd of course not of course not so because there is a truth let me go to the first one you mean Charlie of course that's something we should be sad about and I think black folk are I've never met a black person who didn't care about black home black where the violence we can talk about the protest of that I just let me finish this other point though I think when you get attached only the point is we mourn him right the issue with my issue with you with George Floyd was imagine if we we more intentionally we go to a funeral and then you bring up the fact that he was a schoolyard bully hypothetically right it'd be like well yeah okay maybe he was a schoolyard bully but that's not relevant to this thing we're talking about right now I'm okay with you talking about violence within the community the question is do we want to bring it up here and what what political work does it do to criticize him in that space I think it's especially important to bring it up there and and then I'm not talking about being a schoolyard bully because that that's totally different that almost sounds petty but when you're talking about somebody who ran drugs to the black community a huge issue that black Americans always talk about all the reason there's so much addiction you know is is because of drugs the reason that there's drugs and people point to idea that you know the CIA ran crack into the black communities but then when you want to talk about why we have this issue of drugs we we want to martyr somebody who went to prison five times for selling drugs arms robbery you want to talk about violence I mean we're talking about a man this is not a guy who just was bullying people I mean you for shirt your your way into a woman's home and put a pistol to her stomach and threatened to kill her as you robbed her while she's pregnant okay this guy was a terrorist in my opinion I think we are literally martyring somebody who terrorized the black community's entire life I'm not comfortable with it now if he had done a 180 at the end of his life I believe in forgiveness you know I'm not above you know believing that people make mistakes but this was not the story of George Floyd and that and that is proven by the fact that he was on the most addictive drug that is in America today which is fentanyl - no is 100 times stronger compare the more house make him a bad person I'm saying the the idea I'm attacking the narrative that but then after his ninth stint in prison which is by the way if you want talk about a record going to prison nine times it's very difficult to do you know before he turned forty years old and he did it okay and then people wanted to say then he moved to Minneapolis change life front I have a problem with the lie I don't like a lie he didn't change his life around he was still doing drugs he was still pushing drugs and he was high on fentanyl and methamphetamine up time of his arrest which by the way fentanyl literally quite literally is what doctors give to patients when they want to bring down their breathing and my problem is we can never have in our discussion there are so many black victims in the world you know true victims of homicide who have done nothing wrong maybe they were high school bullies but he wasn't that no I'm saying when I say yeah he was a true victim of a homicide I don't you know who knows at the end of the day because right now there's disputes in the medical examiner report someone saying he actually died from fentanyl you know his his breathing was complicated by whatever then they got a private person I'm not a doctor so I'm not gonna dispute how he the manner of his death but I am going to agree that what Derrick children did was an example of police brutality regardless of whether or not is exactly what led to his death I just don't think it's honest it's just it's not okay to me to elevate somebody who traumatized over their entire lives he was a bad man you know and is it relevant yeah when you're putting him on t-shirts you have little kids wearing posters and crying yeah that should not be your person that you're looking up to I wouldn't tell my kids to find a George Floyd t-shirt yeah I don't think the world is looking up to George fluid I think they're looking to his death as an example of what's happening to us every single day in societies and I think that's oh oh it absolutely is what is excessive force police brutality your police police are killing black Americans every day no brutality excessive force and no time what death brutality right that's the point right George Floyd was beaten excuse me people are beaten every dangerous for it was it was a attack some people are being as they are being violent to police officers so if you look at the data the data suggests something different what does that suggest the data suggests that even when you control for the nature of the offense that to charge for meaning obviously there's a greater chance that you'll have a physical interaction with a violent offender than say someone who passes off like a counterfeit bill or someone who steals a loaf of bread and you can you and you control for all the other data all the other factors which would mitigate against the argument I'm making or challenge the argument making blacks and Latinos are forty to fifty percent face for forty forty to fifty percent more likely to face excessive force now when you get to the to death when you get to police shootings the the most accurate and recent data from the studies that are out don't suggest a racial disparity right black people are necessary more likely be killed by law enforcement every day you know everyone a day-to-day basis so like the numbers are relatively low but excessive force absolutely the data is indisputable the Blackwell who statistics I mean you get the study because I've looked at statistics and I've never seen this and I mean I'm talking about people that have actually been proven to be using excessive force there's been no racial disparity and if there is one white white males are more likely than what you're looking at that you look at the death not just killed except you know excessive brutality I'm talking about I'm not talking about filings cuz you might be talking about filings no no I'm talking about even if you even when you look at I give you an example Roland fryer has a study in 2019 the journal of political economy that's been reviewed peer-reviewed etc there's and he actually pushes back against more stronger arguments on my side which I'm not invoking because I would say I think Roland studies actually more accurate in unless in my favor but the data that they're submitting ironically is from police departments right so so we could intuitively believe that the most racist police departments aren't submitting the data so these are the Police Department saying hey we're doing this right we're willing to show you this stuff and forty to fifty percent of that forty forty four forty to fifty percent higher rate among black and brown people have excessive force being thrown to the ground being also being handcuffed introduce that data and say they're being thrown to the ground means nothing unless you say what the reasons were for them being thrown to the ground you get what I'm saying so that becomes that that becomes that data is very subjective now if you're saying like you know they threw him to the ground because he was running and they had to throw him to the ground and you saw a police report where they've studied and it says this person was thrown throughout and he was black ok well the answer could also be the look of a statistics of who's more likely to fight back against police officers and the answer is black people so data can always be manipulated to answer you want to hear which is why I think the most concrete but so what you look at you study though because they actually address the point raising and they said it's most important you know concrete data to look at and I'm glad you've already acknowledged it is that there is no racial disparities when you look at the numbers of who's actually dying at the hands of police officers so the entire narrative that's out there right now in the world is just patently wrong I'm talking about deaths now you know white Americans are 25% more likely to be killed by police officers you're talking about deaths police officers are 80 and a half times more likely to be killed by a black man than the other way around why aren't police honestly protests by police officers against black men would make more sense eighty and a half times loud no it wouldn't and this goes to the question you asked about why we're not protesting black on black crime I there's prison to fill with black people for killing black people prisons are full of black people know something they're not caught no no I'm not saying everyone who does it is caught my point is that black people have a good-faith expectation that we'll go to jail for kill for doing crime right there's not like there's no narrative the black people don't go to jail for stuff right the problem is with law enforcement when it's the other way around when law enforcement does crime against us it does the daily ritual of excessive force against us we now don't have a good faith belief that they will be arrested that they'll be fired they'll be arrested that they'll be tried and if they are tried we have no belief that they'll be found guilty even if the evidence is overwhelming and so what we're protesting against is a system that is supposed to be honest and fair but isn't and doesn't yield just outcomes so part of why when didn't somebody in my neighborhood you know get shot and then a guy gets carry on the handcuffs we're not protesting not because we're not outraged by it but protesting doesn't actually stop person a from killing person B right the protest is to stop Mileva love the neighborhood but when it comes to police the idea is that we're processing a system that supposed to protect and they have the highest responsibility yeah but I mean police again looking at the data and again I'm talking about death because excessive force as soon as you use the word excessive because it's an adjective it lets you know that it's subjective right excessive is like saying taller sure no no no that's not something they have they've operationalize it so it's specifically you see you use some violence when when not you use the violence beyond what's necessary to detain a suspect or use the did violence that's unprompted right so they've operationalizes and again their basements also on the response of the officers right they're basically even on officer reports I strongly encourage you to read the study I mean I I'm flying in the dark here because you tell you're telling me about a study that I haven't actually read and I definitely have studied this and like as I said perhaps they have operationalized it and there's a way to determine what's considered excessive force I don't know that and perhaps you're right I don't have that study in front of me but we do know is that people that are protesting out today are not protesting because they believe that police officers are using excessive force the whole mainstream narrative where they're having people on and talked on CNN and black lives matter their entire platform is about black men dying under the hands police officers it was founded upon that concept so I hate the fact that we're now shifting and pretending it's about something else and were widening the net and we're making it about excessive force studies that nobody is talking about on CNN everybody is talking specifically about the idea that a black man that his unarmed is likely to die at the hands of police officer and that's fraudulent so fraudulent it's a lie so it one black alive man actually wasn't founded it was founded on Trayvon Martin's death which has nothing to do with law enforcement or Zimmerman wasn't a law enforcement officer so from the beginning we're talking about the kind of sense of unsafety unprotected us that black people experience not just for law enforcement but really around the you know in every sector of our lives like people not just men but women and anyone else that's the first thing and and I think like less matt has always talked about the daily violence among other things if you look at the movement for black lives policy statement it talked about all kinds of stuff it's always been actually most about LGBT movement now it's it's a wide but it's the problem you create a wide net when you when you're full of right when you know you're bullshitting like just about we're about trans rights and police it's like maybe one sentence now that's even about police anything they've really kind of dwindled it and it's actually more about equality for trans some this is I would think this would be up your alley right not to transport but but the idea that we're not singling out the police we're saying that we should care about black lives in all sectors I mean it's part of the part of the argument you're making about black on black violence is one about saying we should care about Mike life and not just when it when when it's threatened by police but everywhere the movement for black law has the saying we care about poverty we care about certainly state violence we care about food insecurity we care about all these in because they connect so they're lying that's the whole point you can put that statement on your website but then when your solution of that is to go into streets and to riot and to burn down into loot and every time they have a protest it ends this way so it's not like there was like that sound like there was at one time where they started every time black lives matter matter narrative starts running in the media black people die white people's neighborhoods get burned down from the start of Trayvon Martin moving on to Freddie gray and here we are today with George Floyd with about our burry this is what happens every single time so if there was if there was that wasn't there may have been other protests that were I'm not saying I'm not you know condemning all protesters I believe in pushing back you see every time no no no what I'm saying is every time their narrative like when I say becomes mainstreamed every time their narrative every time you go whoa we're doing black lives matter again you can bet your ass all across the nation black neighborhoods are gonna burn my people are gonna lose their jobs and people lose their lives right so that that's that's the hypocrisy the idea that they care about all this other stuff when in fact every time they're protesting it is specifically about police brutality okay and black people suffer so if your if your solution is worse than the problem it's not a solution so how many black people have died in these George Floyd protests subahu I've been arrested because of these George George Floyd protests how many black people have been impoverished you guys are these George Floyd protests that's when it's a good time to sit back and say is what I'm doing working okay so so let's look at that so I think one I'm it's an interesting way to frame this black lives matter protests happen every day and they've happened since 2014 your point is that the media net when it becomes a national narrative becomes you know this is a BLM moment is on fire what I'm asking you to consider is that part of what happens is when is on fire they throw BLM onto it right that they don't that they don't account for all these other I mean I go to Bill and protests all the time where people are marching we're not just marching against police violence again that's just the sexy story cable news doesn't actually care about black food insecurity or transfer the truth I mean one of the most vulnerable populations are black trans women in terms of being subject to death again that's because the majority of the watch the reason that they have a higher death rate there are a few reasons there's structural factors but we can talk about that too but my point is we don't cover it so so part of it is that it's part of it is not that black people don't care about this stuff it's what's sexy to clip to corporate media sexy to corporate media people burnish it down right so so what they're I will totally give you that that is usually one it's it's one for scars yeah no I mean look I I have said the how you know ninety percent of our problem is the media and and but at that point though if your movement is being hijacked and that's how it's being portrayed how do you combat that well I think you have to one you have to decide if you care what the dominant media narrative is and also what again what political work does that media narratives do because I'm Matt I don't also want to pretend that the rebellions that we've been seeing around the country aren't significant and aren't valuable you know I just don't think they can be the only game in town right if you're if you think the rebellions are good yeah oh yeah these autonomous cities the burning and looting of black community and the black black communities homes and burning down in the neighborhoods these black people are crying on screen saying that their neighborhoods you being the shore you see that as a good no what I'm saying is that I see a movement of uprisings around the country is good now we can discuss tactically whether each specific act is why tell me how it's good let's let's take Minneapolis the first one when they burn down the city tell me how you know that and said this is good so one thing is that again black death is so ordinary in this country right yeah cuz we do it the whole time to ourselves and black death the soul order in this country regards of how we sort of we can we can analyze why in a moment but getting the nation to stop and pay attention offer requires the spectacle the spectacle of violence right I'm not talking about killing people not time will do harm to people in talk about even like tearing up a store right you look at Martin Luther King this is one example Martin Luther King leveraged the spectacle of violence to get America to pay attention the only difference is Martin King said we're gonna strategize so that we get B right we're not go to other people up but we're didn't be right i mean the Pettis bridge wasn't it was the idea the idea beyond the Pettis bridge was you know that if we if we protest here that they will that these police will come and harm us yeah and it American strategy because it showed America that the problem was the police do you think the spectrum right now is showing America the problem is the problem is no it's not when you look at these riots it is not you this is the exact opposite of Martin Luther King strategy the exact opposite Martin Luther King said we're going to go in and be peaceful and we're gonna watch them send dogs on us they're gonna set their fire hose on us and when the whole world sees these clips they're going to realize that the problem is rape or white people that are racist and the palais and the government center spot allowing miss Tara to go on okay when he crushed that it was a brilliant strategy right now black America strategy is we're gonna go in and be violent we're gonna go in and loot we're gonna go in and take the TVs and then America is gonna think hmm black lives matter is a terrorist unit and that's exactly what I guess what I'm pushing back first what I'm pushing back again since we don't look good this is not making black people look good the first thing I push back against this this idea of it the only time we can engage in the type of resistance is if we're if our bodies are the ransom for justice tell me was that more the King Stratton no no I'm with you I'm doing that it's not I'm saying it's not the exact it's not the same tactic the overall strategy is still to use violence and the spectacle to get justice right but you and you're like it's what I'm hearing you say is that's cool if the dogs are biting us and the hoses a spring I'm saying you're not the message you're gonna deliver is that basketball or violin so using the idea and you and you have just already said that you thought Martin Luther King had a good strategy and I agree with you what we are doing is he's a opposite strategy so we are showing that black people are violence that black people lose that black people robbed that box go kill one another that is that that is what is being shown how you think we're winning with that narrative I don't know I don't I don't know right now I was thinking I'm so glad we took those TVs at a target and burn down target because now people are seeing part of what happened the other thing is even while we suspect well that was shown when we talk about King right because we there's King in marching in 65 but there's also what's happening in Watsons 65 what's happening in Detroit and 67 you know there aren't the same rebellions you're talking about are hopping around and what happen my point is that it's never a single strategy right there's always multiple things happening right there are people calling for defunding right now and there are people on the streets just like King there are people who there are people who are marching and getting beaten by police and there were people who are tearing up Detroit and what I'm saying we need multiple strategies now I agree with you I would love I would love if and I got to say I have a book store in Philadelphia and whole bunch of stores on my block that got smashed sneaker store got raided what else got read another a hair store got raided my book store did not right my coffee shop did not now why well it's not nearly as random as you might think right much of a lot of this stuff is all you're tearing down your own most of this in our neighborhood isn't ours right most of it are people who are occupying our neighborhoods most of stuff we're taking most of these homes that are burning we don't own social Target where they hire majority black people so you take a lot of people's jobs in that situation I mean I just I'm trying to see one positive thing in burning down and looting and robbing and I want to go back to she brought up the you know the the mid-sixties protests and the and the riots rather cuz they weren't protest and the notorious Detroit and Chicago right a built in place they were rebellions riots same thing which are forms approaches okay sure what was the end consequence of that the Voting Rights Act of 64 that 64 the the riots happened in 67 and 68 yeah okay so King dies in 68 and we get more civil rights legislation months later it was in the aftermath of rebellion well what was the if this is the thing as people you're looking for a piece of legislation but what happened Detroit and Chicago were the the economic booms for the black community the riots happened there were sheep who got up and they left and they depressed those cities okay okay so the thing is is that this is the problem everybody wants to be in the now I'm in the later okay I'm already hearing the conversations amongst business owners they're leaving they're gonna leave the cities so you want to talk about signing up for another 60 years of black poverty who did we signed up for black poverty and it started in the 1960s first and foremost it was a legislation that was supposed to be helpful nope that lets economic depression too because it sent devised bad behavior all the great the Great Society act and all that stuff that happened in the mid-60s was not good for black America sounded good like everything of Democrats before it sounded great we're gonna give you stuff a really incentivize father absence it welfare eyes the black community and it made us married us to the government on top of that we burned and looted at our own communities thinking that we were going to get justice and and in what really happened is the business leaders left the jobs left my people had no jobs and we were poor and we had sick we had now had 60 years complaining about the condition of Chicago and Detroit use inner cities and we're recreating the wheel all over again right now I think that's a heck of a analysis it's the truth no no I think it's it's it's not that's what happened in the 60s again it's sort of like the King example it's not that I disagree with the particular things you're saying happen I'm saying there's a whole bunch of other stuff that happen at the same time which complicates the story this is not I'm Eric I know I'm saying in the same respect so for example when we look at and I just talk about this in my book nobody which you all should read all right you've got to do that yes I want to plug it but it is actually relevant to the topic casualties of America's war on the vulnerable for Ferguson to Flint and Beyond because a part of what I talked about in Ferguson is this very thing right you're right there their migrations there's white flight there's ultimately end up with the suburbanization of poverty in in Ferguson Ferguson is a suburb right then you look at place like Chicago you're the place like Detroit multiple things are happening it's not just that black people rioted and lost the city report and doom themselves to poverty 50 years there are you have to look at the shift in the economy itself you have to look at the flight effectors which weren't a response to to to black rebellion it was a response to taxes tax tax incentives it was a response to going to mobile companies that were making those cities flourish and they all packed up and left because everybody again a good example is Ferguson if they see need it when they left it company say a lot of things they were burning down their factories but I understand I understand what you're saying I'm saying we have to look at again a series of economic policies and the failure of the government to invest in those communities in ways that would yield out we don't need the government to invest but we needed what was what was happening that's why those communities are flourishing we needed private companies to come in and to have jobs and to stabilize the community the last thing black America need is more government okay and it is amazing to me and I read this in my upcoming book that the community that has suffered the most from black palette from from government policies you want to talk about slavery that was a government policy you want to talk about Jim Crow laws that was a government policy you want to talk about the welfare system that was a government policy it's now looking to the government to give them more policies the government has never done anything good for black America right it's not anything else having good for black America has happened because of private companies investing information but that was getting rid of government policies anything it really wasn't new policy if you want to talk about what was wrong with America in the beginning is that America wasn't obeying or honoring its own constitution all men are created equal all men have the right actually was not honoring its own Constitution they created legislation that went against the Constitution so America was one big hypocritical mess when all this was going on one America actually got rid of all of the policies that they created that went against his Constitution which happened you know obviously was allowing women to vote allowing first black men to vote then allowing you know black black women and all women to vote and getting rid of all that crap then America became what it was supposed to be when they actually enshrined the Constitution so so so why not then imagine the government as having the capacity to expand on that promise right it expand on that promise of life liberty pursuit of happiness of all people being created equal through proper legislation for example I mean you were to say you would agree the Marshall Plan certainly helped you know it certainly helped the white middle class after World War two I mean it create economic incentive it invested in them to say well now for black folk we don't need that we need less government know the investments so you know governments don't make money right I'm a citizen covers make money so how is the government you keep saying government keep us plan and give us money what is wrong with that governments don't make money job people make money right it capitalism makes money new jobs new businesses new ideas there's one thing that the government can do to help black America is what Trump's doing right now deregulate right stop with all putting all of these traps and barriers for people that have good ideas and that are entrepreneurs you know to come out and actually say I wanna start miss business for example my cousin who lives in the projects wanna start a food truck right great co-clustering there was about and this is listed under Obama 20,000 pieces of regulations not moving him to be a but you got to have this on this on this vacations rationed the government just messes stuff up that's the problem right we don't need the government does not make money so you're saying the government needs to invest in black America doesn't even make any sense no it does because the argument is that we as a nation flourish when we invest for example citizens we know you have to create the conditions for thats what i mean i don't mean invest in same way you invest in sears and roebuck in 1950 I'm saying invest in the people in a sense of create equal opportunity and put capital in spaces aren't allowed for the flourish meant of capital in place yeah I'm a green deregulate we're an equal on equal opportunities owns which is presidents doing now one thing well we'll give you a tax break to that's incentivizes a private business to come in and build their businesses in Chicago we will give you tax breaks if you build your hub here in Chicago that's the government's job and what if the government says we but you have to have X number of black people because of historic patterns of discrimination you'd be you'd be okay with that right no why would I be okay with that I would hope you know because that's that's not regulation I'm talking about we can't we can't ask for racism to combat racism that's just I mean it's just so foolish people keep saying so we need to have quotas I don't want quotas I'm not I'm not ok with formative action all of that is racism it's all racism ok wasn't reason it's racism because we are smart enough to get into schools we're smart enough to get into schools I just met your daughter seems pretty smart I don't think she needs the government to help her out to get into school she's a smart girl ok it is a bigotry it is a soft bigotry of low expectations which is a phrase that was coined by George HW Bush when you are saying it's from what George W Bush yeah correct when you are saying to someone we have to do this you can get into school what you are saying to a black person is you're not smart to get into the school by your saying no what they're saying is is that there's a pattern discrimination and in a lack of access just make it merit-based don't even put your color when you when you apply for school that's not that's not discrimination it means you didn't get any because you did look the best if everything we're facing knew I'd be fine with yeah that's what I'm asking for it yeah that is the answer no racism discrimination if it were facially neutral banana sighs but underneath it work work work contextually neutral I'd be fine with him everybody had the same chance if we were example if all of us in this room right there's a guy when he was seven feet tall she's a very toss that does their it was seven feet tall and we try out for the MB together he has a better shot than I do yeah because he's seven feet tall correct and you might be better basketball that's quite cool right cuz we're being measured by the same thing right we it's the rules of public the goals are clear the playing field is level the referees are honest right I'm cool with that the problem is when it comes to life it doesn't work that way how does not work that way so explain to me how formative action doesn't work that way kids being actually they're discriminated in favor of two games I give you I can give you a couple a couple examples one the metrics we use to to get people into school particularly SAT SAT is a terrible predictor of how well you'll do in college right it's it there's some data that shows that that it'll it's somewhat of a predictive how maybe how well you do your first year but it's not a very good indicator of whether you'll finish it's not a good idea whip egg it's not a good indicator what your final GPA will be but we use the SAT it's a terrible metric the metric also shows that it disproportionately favors middle class people take a race out for a second it dis report it disproportionately benefits or benefits middle class people and so a middle class kid who's just as smart just as talented works just as hard it may even have the same GPA won't perform as well on the SAT I mean the work kay won't perform as well as a middle-class kid not because he or she isn't as talented but because the metric is broken and so if ivan has that from the school say look I'm just taking people in SAT scores it's a facially neutral metric I'm saying look I just want the best SAT scores the problem is it's not actually necessarily measuring how smart you are it's measured how middle-class you are these do you see what I'm saying not particularly no I don't see how it measures how many class you are because because the test itself as is structured has questions it has like fill in the blank weights of reference that don't necessary your your ability to reason but that's exactly what it does he measures your ability to reason I'll give an example if I have in it a vocabulary for example I'm generally a good one it's the classic almost cliche now is the one about the yacht right or it'll it'll ask you to complete a logical syllogism it will ask you to to make a leap and logic right to make some kind of interpretation of a text and if I don't understand a few of the words that are referencing the text not because it's off it's on my grade level and I missed it not because I'm not smart enough but because this is a sort of fairly normal middle-class thing to know and this is not a fairly normal working-class thing to know then I'm not actually measuring my ability to answer the question well the problem is is that if you can't answer the question though and then you you're put into a school you know not because you knew the answer to the question because of your skin color you are likely to drop out of that school yeah but the data doesn't show that it does show that I'm not know typically shows that yes it does and I'm gonna push back on this because I actually just read this in Thomas Sol's book it exactly shows that and this is why Claire anyway it shows that black kids when they are mismatched in schools but because they are accepting affirmative action policies and putting people putting them into schools where they get that if you're saying people who are mismatched for schools don't stay yeah well can they actually end up being at the bottom of the class it's actually bad for black people formative action has harmed black people because here's the problem and I'm gonna tell you exactly what happened so Thomas saw was an adjunct professor at Cornell University and he was teaching and he learned that something like 25 percent of all of the black kids were on academic probation so he went to go investigate why are all the black has an academic probation well it turns out all those black kids relating based on affirmative action meaning he said by the way these were the top tier black kids in America if they had actually got into a school they went to UMC instead of going to Cornell they would have at the top of their class but because they mismatched they put him into a class that was slightly higher and they weren't able to compete at the level of everyone in that class they were at the bottom it doesn't it doesn't help those kids to finish at the bottom of Cornell rather than finish at the top of another school they could have been at the top of another school they just were mashed into the correct University yeah I'm sure it's black America I'm disagreeing with that data but with that interpretation of data but I'm also but it's true but they're more likely to drop out and they're finishing at the bottom of their classes you can't just put a kid into Harvard because they're black one that's that's never been the argument of affirmative action for college admissions and that's not happening there aren't all that support and that it hurts black Americans because they they're not they're finishing at the bottom of classes where they would be finishing at the top if they had just went into schools at there's absolutely no way to predict that right so that's not that's not data that that's like it's a huge leap of interpretation to say no it's that wouldn't mean there's no way to predict it how can you pretend someone would predict you can you could assess it retro you can do a retro actively assess if someone would have been right and you look at their SAT scores and you say if they had actually gotten into this school which is where they belonged as opposed to putting them in this school because they were black so Harvard saying let's let them in on an affirmative action basis I'm saying that's nice house based admissions that's what I'm saying what I'm disagreeing with is is the presumption that that we're taking as fact that people are admitted with who are wholly unqualified for these for these admissions they are no what I'm so the average SAT score of all the other Chinese kids and white kids that get into you know get into these schools no that's what the way college admissions works is that with regard to diversity with a Grunch affirmative action is that the argument is that race should be a factor in the application now that you should be admitted because you're black now I think we should have this whole sea of unqualified people who have like a thousand a SATs and you know and in some and in two and 3.0 GPA that's not the argument if that were the argument I would agree with you because when there are situations where people are mismatched that dramatically you're right they don't do well that's like I was never disputing that point what I'm disputing is the idea that that is that that is it the the framework for how in front of action works or how we've ever wanted it to work with universities the idea here is that one we believe that diversity is an institutional benefit that we all benefit when schools are more diverse not just like not just black people because we got into Harvard but white people for having black people there and vice versa right against HBCUs no I'm not against HBCU it's weird no I'm I'm for white people being allowed to come to HBCUs in the same way I think that that's absolutely do you have a quota of white people that are allowed in I think there should be a quota of white people to make sure they're getting a good diverse experience you just thought that if there were and then I wanna return to this other point cause I think it's key it's apples oranges but yeah I'm always apples and oranges when you want to talk about equality when it comes to black a man because why do you aren't being systematic it's not a racist society to let them in based on the color of their skin but it is racism if you don't let them in others no what I'm saying is is that if there were a history of white people being denied access to Howard or more house or Spelman then I'd say yes we absolutely in a court of why through because they deserve to be there right but the fact is there aren't there aren't a lot of white people trying to good you be okay if there was a you know just in all-white school but who weren't allowed to enter that very few white people enter would you be okay with that would I be okay if they were allowed to go like you just said the HBCU wait say that one wasn't much I heard you right so your argument that you're saying is that the reason that you have these policies is because you think they benefit from diversity by having a certain quota yeah we all gotta fight versity so then do you think why are you okay with HBCUs right okay you were asking if there were a white school that had very few black people but that like you were allowed to go yeah yeah I'm saying do they call them Yale Harvard and Princeton that's about point no but they have they have quotas they don't have holders what they have is what they do as they consider race as a factor in admissions and I'm saying similarly yes I absolutely think it's racist no I'm saying it's racist to consider race yeah so it's free that's literally like the definition no it's not the definitely considering race is not that is not the definition of racism you're making a decision right based on this color of somebody's skin that is racism no it's not making your position if I'm understand you correctly is that the even the acknowledgment of consideration of race is a factor in anything is racing yes I think it should everything should be merit-based that's true equality and I'm saying no right so racism becomes racist if I am using race as a factor to discriminate against you to deny you access to deny you access Chinese was why they're suing that's why they keep going to the Supreme Court they are now actively not allowing Chinese people in Asian kids who work their asses off and just perform better than every other race in America sorry they are at the top of the Society for a reason Asian Americans are being discriminated against because they want more diversity and there's too many Asians at MIT or too many ages at Harvard and they're saying you can't come in we need to let some black people and even though your test scores are way higher and you've done more and you that that's wrong that's discrimination you're screaming against Asians in favor of black people that's wrong it's racism it's not discriminatory because again if the only measures for getting into college were GPA and an SAT score and there were a list of people right and I said you know what you can't get in even though your score is higher you'd have an argument college you know what happens it's not when you when you apply for college your whole time would they tell you you gotta be part of this club you gotta be part of this thing you got to do this you got there's a whole thing that we want we want a well-rounded student and with there are multiple factors and admissions right and the other thing any admissions counselor will tell you is because I was saying what if they have the exact same numbers and one is black and one is white there are never two cases that are exactly the same right they're always complicated admissions decisions are always complicated they're always a whole array of things and we make decisions based on fit we make decisions based on the well-roundedness of a person and also what they contribute to our environment right so so to that extent the consideration of race or in or or or geographic origin is not something like I wouldn't want all kids from New York in one school right so oftentimes if kids are relatively similar and and we have no kids from the Midwest and someone from the West Coast yeah you might have a 2.5 not relatively similar that's what I'm saying if it was a merit-based system all of the top schools would have all Asians and that's why Asians are suing and they have based they should win I hope they win because it's racist we should not be saying you over perform and there's too many of you because Asians have a better culture and they focus on school they do I mean listen I think result they do and this is the problem is that we don't want to acknowledge the fact this just this is the reason why black America is never in my opinion going to get better until we're able to have honest discussions every culture is different right there are many different cultures going on you know at Latino cultures different Asians culture okay so I should be more statistic yeah so right in the bunch of kids I've never seen camp so right now the the you know if you wanna talk about in terms of wealth in America the wealthy the wealthiest groups are Pakistani Taiwanese not Chinese actually and I think Japanese right and growing up in invite you know in environment I grew up in a very mixed you know public school system my but one of my best friends who was Japanese after school at her house her dad was crazy about schoolwork I mean it was like it didn't happen in my house our cultures were different you know I didn't have a mass I my cousins like really a lot of us where I'm raising my cousins I'm watching my cousin's you know because they're moms that work the single-mother household so the cousins are becoming the babysitter's wasn't that way her father was so strict about her work you know she ended up going you know to a top school that made sense based off of how she's worked her entire life right to imagine that I didn't end up going to a top school and for me to say it's because of you know color of my skin or she shouldn't be able to no she she worked hard her Asian culture is different Jewish Americans have a different culture right they they also are ones that tend to values school work a lot harder we need to do better in black America I value my school work I wasn't raised in a household that valued school work and I'm not saying all I'm not here to paint a broad brush but I'm saying over overwhelmingly you know there's a reason why we're dropping out of high school at a higher rate yeah lots of reasons anybody but nobody we never talk about what we're doing wrong and it is it is culture right even our value breaking down education even via our our hip-hop our music everything we actually value a lack of education we see that as black culture do you go to empty like Ebonics that's us right and there were a bunch of it I'm saying is that your what what Ebonics is is you're breaking down the English language right and then we're surprised okay it's a dialect of the English language but it's not proper English right and then we're surprised when seventy five percent of black boys can't pass a reading exam and then we want to blame the government right sometimes a black boys in California anyone stays the government government to be something wrong what are we doing wrong do we do anything wrong so you've hit a lot of a lot of spots I mean let me pick a few um first what I want to go I don't wanna get too far off of this cuz I still think you're missing the point of the affirmative action thing which is they're not address the the PW the the earlier the literacy stuff the reading the dropout stuff right my argument isn't again that people should be put in schools where there's a mismatch I agree as a professor I can tell you I encounter stood I've encountered students who are mismatched for the institution for lots of reasons it's no fun to teach someone who's mismatched for the institution that's the first thing one the second thing I would say is its institutional mismatches happen across the board and there plenty of people who don't meet the average of the school it's not just black people that's for example legacies oftentimes don't meet the mesh athletes often don't meet the match who else I mean it's legacies donors and athletes are three our three key examples George Bush people say that George Bush was dumb George W Bush wasn't dumb his SATs whoever leaves one standard to be a deviation above the average Americans right but it's too below what the average Yale student did he was just fine he turned up just fine he's smart enough he got into Yale he did just fine um black people are no different right I would rather give that kind of hookup to use a lack of use a bit maybe not I mean I use the word hookup I would rather have that type of relationship for a student in poverty and someone who worked hard then someone whose the benefit of legacy and privilege I'd rather have none I got you yeah but and I and I I hear you what I'm saying is from that point cuz no one that no one is complaining about the athlete no one's complaining about the legacy no one's complaining about the person who built the building that we're standing in you know in until at the university we're on top of that but I don't wanna get into what about ISM I'm just saying though I think it's an important point that we only talk about this in the context of black people when it's very much when they're very much not the ones who the biggest often the most egregious examples of institutional mismatch the second thing is when we think about black people in Africa again the goal when we do admissions is to say how can we have a diverse student body because diversity itself is an institutional asset so if this is the average SAT scores 1400 and there's a black kid from Compton who has a 1,000 and a 3.9 I might say this person is probably not a great fit for this school can you explain that diversity being an asset studies show that that when when groups our heterogeneous we're a bit more dynamic and creative solutions we're able to problem-solve better that we learn from each other and that we're better prepared for my studies you sound like one of those leftists fluffiest how do you measure that how do you measure that what's the test to see if diversity task-oriented problem-solving with groups and they they did him with homogeneous groups first and groups that are all the same tend to arrive at solutions faster if we're all the same because we tend to think the same we tend to have the same kind of ways of solving problems but what's interesting is when we're heterogeneous it takes us longer to get there but we offer more diverse and creative solutions outcomes so you wave that you know you can ask what you're which of all the school is we could have a debate about you know what you think the outcomes because I think that you know oh there's no such thing as diversity just because you look different than me does it mean that we're diverse we could be from the exact same neighborhood I mean I agree me I think what the one thing that students that would benefit the most from and what you don't have on college campuses intellectual diversity so this right here which is much better used to a college university to black would be look alike you know we're the same color but you and I are totally opposite you know playing fields and this is a positive conversation people to listen to and to hear this is great you don't get us on college campuses but what's a predictor of that right so if I have people from different racial backgrounds different class backgrounds I mean we could say the Supreme Court is diverse but they all went to Harvard and Yale right for a law school for the for the majority not always my point right so I'm not saying the only diversity is racial diversity I'm not saying the only diversity should be gender diversity I'm just saying that these are factors I wouldn't want to say if I if I went to a school where all the men had the highest SAT scores I would think even if women have slightly lower SAT scores or men have slightly lower SAT scores I'd want gender diversity but again I'm also saying that your idea of merit is based on this conception it concedes that the metric itself is correct and I'm asking you to consider based on all the data that the SAT in these other metrics aren't actually good predictors of how well you'll do anyway they're not the essay the SAT is not am if the goal the SAT is a measure your aptitude right your your ability it sounds really knowledge tests not supposed to be like okay there's a hundred things you have to know if you know 100 of them you win right it's to say this is a person's prepper preparedness for college it actually doesn't the data shows that it doesn't predict well how well you'll do in college doesn't fit what your GPA is going to be there's no correlation between a strong correlation between your GPA between your graduation graduation rates and such so that's what I'm saying even that idea of meritocracy has to be based on something you know it would be like if that 7-footer over there if they decide to try sawab ask about the only thing nations try this out for was three pointers right I might make more three-pointers he's seven feet tall just give him the ball dunk it every time and so the metric itself made me benefit my skill set versus that skill set and I'm saying if they have a more robust assessment of skills and so what I find is not that we are meeting people who are black people who are far off the mark in terms of admission there are people who are already within the zone and we're saying let's let race be a factor too so yes I may have just pick an arbitrary number I may have a 1,300 and the white guy may have a thirteen fifty and I may have a 3.9 he may have a 3.9 4 and you may say well his numbers are higher I would say 1 again assess the metric but also there might be value to a school just not going to school all white people or all black people again now I know you mentioned htpc you think but again that's a it's a different contest because they're not being denied access to it so you I would assume then that you strongly disagree with some of the instances that are happening of black people requesting all-black dorms as a safe space and as a solution to them feeling tokenized by the presence of white people on campus two different questions there in Jerrod do I believe in the diversity of education classrooms of dorms but if there is a situation where people feel harmed or unsafe well they use the word unsafe but what actually was going on is they feel tokenized meaning that there's too many white people so they want their own I think it's ok for people to carve out their own spaces so you're actually ok with discrimination but you refer to as positive discrimination because it ends up being good and your opinion is it is discriminate no positive segregation as long as you're choosing segregation I'm ok with separation not segregation there's a deal of if it's an all black dorm its segregation it's a separate dorm hmm it's not segregation again why people aren't asking again Dubois College Houston you know at University of Pennsylvania's a classic example how is the all black door I'm not segregation because white people aren't being denied just to it no that's what they're creating all black dorms we're own broken black people can stay but again as a as a practical matter white people aren't asking to be in these dorms it's not as if there's a lot of right who said we would love to be in this dorm but these black people won't let us in just like there's not a line of people saying I would look there's not a lot of white women saying I wouldn't go to Spelman and they won't let me in because that is what happens because then what happens if a white person says I'm not okay with this as they get attacked can somebody remind me of the campus that a Bret Weinstein got chased off of evergreen campus where they decided it was only black people were gonna be allowed in the campus for that day and one professor who was white said well I want to stay here and teach my class and they chased him into a room with a bat and this shouldn't happen but so that's not the same thing culture that first off an all-black dorm is racist and this is what this is my problem is that somehow we've arrived suddenly into a place where black Americans are offering the exact same thing that our ancestors fought to end discrimination segregation but we've made a spin on it and said but this is a positive form of discrimination this is a positive form of segregation because we're choosing it it's wrong it's just wrong I mean I don't see how you can't just plainly say an all-black dorm is racist there should be all-black all-white Oxman it's racist it should never exist at all okay you sleep where you sleep you don't like sleeping there you leave the school you can decide to go somewhere else but we don't play that game on college campuses we don't play you know X amount of people quotas are gonna be allowed into school it needs to be a merit-based I don't care what color you are let me see how you perform at me see and guess maybe looking at the activities without knowing all you are I might say okay he's a little lower but he has taken on he was playing full-time basketball and all that so I think he'd be a good fit again race does not need to be present flat termination to be made we are wise race the only thing that we can sit so for example LeBron James yes our James were going into college right now with a lower SAT score and a lower GPA you're the president the university and he wants to go to Princeton he was play Ivy League basketball right and he's a little bit lower than everyone else do you not let him in because there's a white guy who's above him let him into school if his SAT is low he's not doing well but he's extraordinarily player and he's good enough to be in the school I'm not saying he's you still don't need his race on a piece of paper to determine that no take his race off yeah take off race that's my point okay let's pick a white guy let's dirk nowitzki would say well supply my point is if someone had an extraordinary talent like basketball we let basketball players on all the time with lower GPA right but I'm saying discrimination no regardless if you're gonna say we want to make sure we have a healthy mix you should not be hitting or race you are period when you apply to school and that's what's my point and what I get you but I fully comprehend your point what I'm saying is is that we should consider in the same way that we're willing to have a diverse group of people and I'm gonna have some flute players and I want to have some soccer players and I want to have some you know some people from Iowa it's okay so I want some black people but it's always it okay to say that I want you know Jewish people yes so you're okay with all of it yes yes sir of excluding Jewish people from the University and so we had to create spaces for Jewish week so part of why you have a what's the school in New York it begins with a be a Brandeis part where you have a Brandeis is precisely because there has been a denial of Jewish people's professors and students intimation universities so we had to create space for them right and so I wouldn't go to Brandeis say oh my god that's that's that's it that's a that's a that's a definite segregated University I say no good for them that's a beautiful choice and black people can go there now Gentiles can go there now right Christians and Muslims can go there now you know but it's largely a predominantly in historically Jewish institution which is great and what I'm saying similarly is I want people by folk having it I'm okay with carving out spaces for ourselves when we for people he remembers me okay I said if white people did that I know if I were at Harvard amazes me if I read Howard and there were a group of white people who said you know what we're the 50 white kids in Howard and we want to have our own space who I'm good with all white dorm at Howard you think that beat that would go down well I don't I think it's such a counterfactual hypothetical because most white people don't want to go to our cuz they don't be run at many black people and that's okay you know I mean in fact most people who go to you know ends up going to Howard athletes oftentimes for undergrad not grant athletes because they're a division 1b Division one basketball player nating getting a Duke or Wake Forest or what I didn't recruited but they go they'll go to Howard right which is a good school but not the best basketball school it's actually very interesting interestingly similar to what happens to these black kids wouldn't go on a Duke or Wake Forest and so and it's I'm okay with that I don't say why we let that white guy in as an athlete call me crazy but I think discrimination is discrimination there's no such thing as positive Asian now I wonder I just want to move quickly because I know and I want to ask you specifically about the ask you a question yeah sure how did you feel about the Dave Chappelle thing uh like what Dave Chappelle said about a four six yeah no I have a thing he didn't tweet about it you tweeted last I was a me about it oh I guess when I woke up I hadn't seen it yeah I tweeted immediately about it I said you know I'm not going to be offended by this because I'm a big believer that we need comedians I think right now we've got we've arrived very suddenly into a politically correct environment where comedians get cancelled they are said that now everything they say is too vulgar to sexist to racist to this and that and the comedians are there to further the conversation and they should be offensive to everybody every side all the time and I've seen Dave Chappelle be offensive to conservatives I've seen be offensive to liberals and there that space to me should be sacred and so I said you know I'd love to meet him I've been a fan of him my whole life but I will defend convenience to the death of me to say what they want they need to their their ground is becoming less and less sacred and they're being cancelled too often that wasn't a catch I was just yeah yeah everyone thought I was gonna be upset about my do you know my brand I'm not politically correct you know I think more Angra might be upset but yeah I don't know I haven't seen or talked to her about it you know and I know so I know there were some black men who felt like you know this is too vulgar we can't we can't you know be talking like that but this this has always been his brand so if he had switched it up and suddenly became vulgar then I would be like this was you know just hateful but he's always I've seen all this stuff he's always taken risk he's always you know really gone in and says stuff like that so I believe comedians are in a sacred space and they shouldn't be attacked especially like in today when we were in canceled culture all the time we need more comedians so it's just take risks and say stuff but I wanted to ask you you know as a last topic about the LGBTQ QRS TUV wxy and Z agenda agenda that's on the fairies agenda it is Jenna when you start you know trying to get policies placed into school that allows teachers to call your child by different gender and as a parent they're not required to tell you they could be calling your little boy Samantha all day at school and they don't have to tell you that's no Genda right when you start trying to systemize it and you know to make it systemized systemic it becomes an agenda and when you see how vicious that lobby has become particularly the trans I said like you had me at the LGB lost me at the tea why the tea the tea because that's when you started telling people they were bigots because they don't want to play the crazy game so here's my point I think trans is a mental disorder I think there's tons of gender dysphoria is a mental disorder there's tons Ament disorders out there there are people that walk around down the street and think they are Superman I think they can they have powers and they can fly in their Batman and I would never want to see that person attacked you know I grew up in a family where one of my uncle's had severe mental disorders and thought he was a like Indian from a tribe or something you know kind of got it because he was in solitary confinement for too long and he actually went crazy in prison so I've always been sensitive to people that have you know mental disorders but but when you start seeing a society that you now have to pretend that Candace's uncle isn't Indian and if you don't you know acknowledge him as Pocahontas then you're a bigot you're that's that's wrong now you're putting the pressure on me to not just be you know accepting of this but now to play the crazy game and to say if you mispronounce and you don't call him chief Pocahontas then you're a bigot I don't play that game I'm like I'm gonna live in reality you cannot live in reality you can say how you feel you can say what you think you see you can pretend say that you think that you know we're on Mars right now but I'm not gonna pretend that I see Mars because it makes you more comfortable so I would have said disagree the and what's interesting is there are people you say you're with the L and the G and the B there are people who you know 30 years ago would have made the exact same arguments against you for the LD G and the B they would say that there's scientific the data that there's that these are people who are who are who have mental disorders there's some misalignment between what they desire and what they're supposed to that there's some kind of gender a thing going on that they're confused about and and and and and you know I think that we have to do a few things for me I think the easy part this is the part I think you and I agree along is that we have to accept and we should accept people as they present themselves in the world right like if someone says my pronouns are I told you my pronouns were she um her you would add just me as she and her right no I wouldn't really know oh you mark okay but you wouldn't call me he no because no I mean I would call you mark you know if that was something that made you comfortable but if I saw you and if I said my name was Jane would you didn't call me Jane if that was your legal name yes but you don't call me well my legal name yeah with that but I'm not gonna pretend I'm not gonna change what you know these established pronouns for male and female because you say you know I'm mark and Here I am so I really want to ask I'm genuinely curious about this but first let me just say I think that one this isn't a case of someone thinking there's something that they're not what people are saying is that there is a misalignment between my sex and my gender because this point my mind and my and my body don't match that's a disorder doesn't make a disorder that just means that the world may be more diverse than we've previously understood it to be whether we see it in implants whether we see it in animals there's all kinds of complexity and we look in in history I mean even we go back to content of Africa we look at like an agent there's all kinds of examples of people who have complicated gender performances and complicated understands of gender and how we perform gender can be different but I guess from my question for you would be why if someone identifies as particularly you know someone who you engage would say it's a colleague at work or whom have our family member member if they say look I prefer to be called she and her and I don't want to be identified by this name why not why not just honor that if you changed your name I will honor it but but but why not me I'm sure you call people by nicknames no I'm sure this you grew up you grew up but you grew up in a black neighborhood right I mean you know somebody named peanut right yeah yeah you don't say wait that's not your legal name your mama named you Joe on the poor you know I'm saying a name is one thing but if you're asking me to change pronouns I'm not gonna do that because these are established pronouns you're asking me and now change the English language right we know why we call female she her girl woman okay these are these are words if meanings words that have meaning so this is a book right so could it could you call this this is a book and this is a mug could you call this a book and call this a mug yes you could do that if you want to change it but words have meanings right so now if I switch it say well this mug wants to be called the book it's a mug just a mug this is this is the word we've established for mugs is the word we establish for books so you're asking me to change the actual meaning of words to accommodate you I'm not going to do that no it is because not only is it a request you can now get in trouble with certain statements rep remembering someone the request of the trans community is not that I'm actually a man but I want you to pretend I'm a woman yet the argument of the trans community which I agree with is no I am a woman and so I want you to our vertical but they're not you're not a woman so that's that's the problem so this is what I say it's now you're you've asked me to take on your mental disorder right so I am okay with the fact the argument from my uncle who thought he was thinks he's a you know Native American from a certain tribe is that this is what he thinks he thinks but he's not okay so I'm not then to say to me that that argument is valid because he thinks it no just because you think something doesn't make it real ok because exactly what gender is dinner is exactly about an experience in a performance and a social it's not a social construct stop saying so just say that words don't have meaning and they're socially constructed mean stuff and I'll tell you why but you say that but then you let me guess this was always a book I know what it is our entire discussion about black America meant nothing there's no such thing as racial injustice see what I did there because that black is a social construct yeah but we live in a social reality so within that social you can't be both marks you either see the gender wage gap is BS that feminism is wrong and that racial disparities are all bs because everything's a social construct or you're gonna go full postmodernist and say nothing is real and it's all made up or you're gonna acknowledge that there are some hard concrete truths if there are honk are concrete truths you and I are black okay that's not gonna change because we wake up and we decide you know what today I'm white and it's just how I feel and today I'm Chinese no no you and I are black okay we are acknowledged as black people were seeing downs black people I am a woman you are a man okay now if I want to wake up tomorrow a man you want to say you're a woman and we want to play the crazy game we can do that so then say all of society now is to pretend that it was all a social that wasn't scruncher you were born a male I was born a female yes that's a say we are black okay it's a color though black is it's a word that we usually say it's a sex female is a word that we use that has a meaning you need to are you are born with a vagina you can children you have a uterus when you are a male you are born with the penis you can you can get a woman pregnant these words have real meanings we cannot suddenly get decide you where there are no truth so so to acknowledge the social construct does not mean that we ignore biology and it doesn't it doesn't mean that we don't have can men get pregnant it depends I know I know what does it depend on I know trans men they can get pregnant that means it's a woman only one sex circular argument it's proving my thing there is a truth a concrete truth you have to be born with a uterus to have a baby only women can get pregnant the fact that we have arrived in a society where part of us agree with that's the part of disagree or something to do that these are facts so you can say that this person who is pregnant identifies as a man that person was born a woman I can tell you about every single time because only women can have sex because there are concrete truths about life forbidden is that I mean can have a baby's pardon and that is a hard truth about life you cannot make that go away because you want to call them a somebody who has a beer and dresses I could do it a woman oh if it's pregnant out I can tell you exactly what it is it's a woman so I'll give you let's go back to social contract think isn't that a little answer the thing you just said I'm not ignoring what you just said I want to tie it together so the the idea of my point was that a social construct doesn't ignore physical realities right social the social contract is about how we as a society makes sense of those physical realities right so for example you said we're black sure all right I'm trying to you pick a light-skinned black person right they're black all right we'd agree on that now let's go to the Dominican Republic let's go to the PR let's go Puerto Rico let's go to Jordan let's go to Iraq let's go to Sudan let's go to Ghana right and each of them and let's go to South Africa I'm picking these plays very specifically because they have different racial logics and racial paradigms and what it means to be black here it doesn't necessarily mean it that it's a universal blackness right that in Dominican there might be five different other racial categories right and there are some light-skinned black folk here who when they go to Ghana get ready to get basically seen as white right because of how we socially construct it doesn't mean my biology change doesn't mean my physical reality change but how society engages this stuff is what makes it a social construct so similarly when it comes so I'm not Norrington realities of races so with race and racism in america and then i'm gonna take it back to the gender thing when it comes to race and racism in america it's yes biologically we're all the same right black people white people there's an infinitesimal difference between a black person and a white person in terms of our genetics right this is the superficial stuff but that doesn't that's a biological reality right it's a biological fact right just like this biologically true is that me being born with a penis right but the truth is but the the idea that there's social meanings attached to that blackness that make people fear me or that make people think that though this per that person's life is worth more because they're white or whatever those are social meanings that are arbitrarily different so so to acknowledge social constructs doesn't mean you ignore biological reality but you just did that when you said that men could give birth so similarly what I'm saying is is that I'm not denying the biological reality of maleness of the genitalia we assigned at birth and what we can do with those body parts I'm not denying that that's a biological reality again the social meaning I'm attaching to it is what I'm saying is more complicated but it's not concave can men give birth sometimes that's my answer is yes and the answer that is that is crazy and this is a weak we cannot it's just crazy we cannot allow this to happen is the ability to give birth I'm not saying is about and only women can give birth is a factually true statement only women give birth there's only one type of human being and vaginas yes okay only women here's what I think we're talking past each other what I'm saying is I'm not disputing the fact that certain body parts yield certain kinds of possibilities right what I'm disagreeing with is the idea that that is the measure of whether or not you are a man or a woman in in society okay but it is now come to a point where if you say that only women can get birth you are called a bigot that is crazy that's nuts if you say like JK Rowling did when she got cancelled by the harry potter cast that only women can menstruate okay can men get their period can you can you help my audience can men get their period some can okay yeah Terry transmitters I'm trans min you can um and again I I think it's okay to ask interesting questions I think it's gonna have intellectual debates but I don't think that we ever want to enter a space where we did naughty the humanity and I'm not saying you are but to deny the humanity or the experiences of other people like I said I was totally okay with trans and so it became a demand you what you are denying is my ability to be an intelligent human being right you're denying you're denying my ability to talk about science and biology in a meaningful way you are now making your existence is actually infringing on mine okay so and because when you make it a requirement now that I have to pretend that men can give birth and men can registry and it needs to be tampons is the ACLU is fighting for in males bit and male restrooms that if I don't see the reason the importance of that that I'm a bigot I'm sort of the sex no no I accept you if you want to run around and you want to wear a dress and you want to call yourself Tiffany and you want to put you a pillow you can you if you I I don't need to know your name doesn't mean anything to me you know I'm not gonna sit here and say I don't believe your name is Tiffany you know a person comes up to me and they're addressing us in a skirt and they say my name is Tiffany okay cool Tiffany cool right but when it becomes Candace is a bigot because she won't acknowledge that you know tiffany tiffany the man got her period and can have a baby I'm not playing that game we I am tomorrow and I have decided that a year from now suddenly I have IIIi have reimagined my identity and I have I have I have recognized and affirmed my didn't be as a trans woman and I no longer want to identify as mark I wanna identify as use your example as Tiffany you you wouldn't be like this book says mark your Marquis did call me Tiffany I call you Tiffany but I'm not gonna call you she in her because that has real meaning and I'm not going to play this way remise by that is what I understand my my my reality you're now saying you've changed from your reality and now I have to pretend that words have no meaning and they do have meanings right so I'm not gonna do that I'm not gonna call you here hi TIFF how you doing TIFF do you have a good date if great TIFF I'm not gonna then say she she I'm not doing that and if people cannot if you people did Emmanuel misgender me either what I'll just call you Tiffany but and if they say we're typically go you don't like he just left you'll say she just left I'll probably slip up you know once or twice but that's almost something you would intentionally misgender me no I would intentionally machine to you but I don't want I don't want Tiffany in my bathroom I don't want Tiffany in the other bathroom right I don't know I don't care I don't care I think it's stupid I think it's foolish I think it's dumb but if you if that's really where guys want to go do it I don't care it's not my business doesn't to go in the bathroom but I don't watch TV in my bathroom you okay are you okay with gender-neutral bathrooms that's how most bathrooms are there's it's always on the plane they're all gender neutral look I got same bathroom fine I'm say designating a specific one like in public spaces like a rec restaurant yeah I hate that they say gender-neutral because usually they just say bathroom like you don't need to say that uh neutral just says bathroom and we all understood that that just seems to be an extra step in virtue signaling to say gender-neutral you just put bathroom everyone knows that means no but a lot of times in places like for example in our university we have male bathrooms we have female bathrooms then we have gender-neutral bathroom you can just put bathroom everyone knows what it means you put WC everyone knows what it means it means anybody can go here that's always been that way since the beginning of time and then suddenly the trans Lobby is warranted to say gender-neutral and sudden we had to put gender-neutral so first things I find actually be the right in this case internet planes do they say dinner neutral I'm with bathroom I'm with you mean grandmom's house yeah Thanksgiving right no one colleges I'm with you but I often find that it's the it's the it's the anti trans community that's like oh my god a gender-neutral bathroom it's the God made bathroom for man-bat bathroom for woman no they've always been just bathrooms usually at small places just bathrooms it's fine but like it's the I can't stand the you know preamble of the Constitution any person can go here we don't care whether you knowing it's just the constant purchasing link should shut up it's about affirming people's I don't need your affirmed in a bathroom sign if you need you have you been denied access roads gender privileges stop with these made-up turns cisgender privilege it's just the bathroom my words are made up I'm saying is if you've been again if you've been constantly denied access to something affirming that you can come here matters because there I mean there's a long history just right bathroom right and I'm saying just right bathroom historically has still excluded people who are who are visibly gender non-conforming they've if you go throughout history you know many people are kicked out of restaurants may be allowed to sit in the restaurant much less use the bathroom because their gender doesn't seem to line up with what we society's expectations and so saying you can come here to is a sign of saying we welcome it's just like saying just like when you see like um an ally an ally sign or or or a or a rainbow flag on a restaurant it's not saying that anyone who doesn't have one means gay people can't come in but the point is because the places have been so hostile affirming that you can't come in anymore than that crap I mean I I tell you I'm nothing annoyed annoys me more than seeing that crap everywhere all the time it's just yeah you know you gotta have the blacklivesmatter flag the LGBT flag the this sign Misun it's like dude since when are people not allowed just buy furniture I don't need you to have 18 different sign like I just wanted walking to the furniture store isn't that nice would you be okay if their American American sorry can you help me one more gay people in America not allowed to buy furniture you're gonna tell me about that it's not specific to furniture but gay people what I'm saying like it's on every store now it's every story let's put a flag there's a historical narrative well more gay people not allowed to go it go into McDonald's as well as long as there have been McDonald's and probably and this isn't specific to McDonald's I'm saying that in terms of public accommodations people who act who identifies gender nonconforming we can talk about we can talk about gay lesbian bisexual talking specifically right now about trans folk yes they're often denied access to public spaces like restaurants like furniture stores like like hospitals etc and part of the reason and again there's plenty of that on this is that when they're in public space they're often criminalized they're often seen as sex workers or F as seen as doing something illicit even if they're just walking down the street so we use the reason you see an over representation of trans women for example being being stopped in search and frisked or apprehended a question even they've done nothing or presume to be doing sex work just because they're on a corner like literally could be crossing the street but is because there's an expectation of who and what they are a social construct and so yes to say look you can come here we want you we won't be gesture this is a safe haven here is entirely reasonable if I had a university to use your your argument earlier and I want I think it's okay for University on the website to say hey we value diversity of opinion we want conservatives to write and you might say well why do I need to say that conservatives or it should be hard anywhere but you would say conserves if our universe is a hostile spaces to conservatives so if I want to signal to conservatives that they were welcome here to I would have to go above and beyond to say that because they're not they're typically not and so I would buy your argument and so I'm saying similarly if a place is denying access historically a country to queer folk or it's a trans folk but I'm saying yeah we got to do something extra to say that maybe we should come up with the flag for conservative people I think it's red white and blue there's like 50 stars Oh [Laughter] we'll take it or start putting American flag so we know I mean I mean whatever I will wrap this by saying I think this was a very important discussion this one yeah I think it's there needs to be more of this we don't have to agree but we cannot be scared to have the conversation people benefit from seeing different perspectives in the black community we are not all a monolith I disagree with mark on virtually everything he has said here I will defend his right to say it to the death of me I think we need more diversity of thought and more diversity of opinion and I deeply respect you for coming onto the show and saying what you believe I mean everybody should buy this book it's called nobody cash these Americans well first you're gonna get two minutes where you actually can pitch whatever you want yeah we're gonna we're app up every episode by allowing you to look into the camera oh wow and you can say what we kind of say is encouraging like if you wish that your one message could fall upon the ears of every person in America what would it be sort of a thing right so are you ready I'm ready on your mark get set world I give you Marc Lamont Hill Wow this is I didn't expect this I'm so nervous first of all we're in a desperate in in trying time it's more important in this book and right now we need radical imagination we need to not be prisoner to the moment we're in we don't need easy solutions we don't need simply salute simple solutions we need to suspend all of our disbelief and invest in each other believe in each other and figure out new more amazing and ambitious dreams and we've ever had before it's the only way we can get out of this it's this moment of darkness of violence of pain of inequality of injustice of deep harm we can't run from history we can't escape history but we can wrestle with it and we can altima not be prisoner to it and I'm proud of what's happening in the on the streets I'm proud of what's happening around the world and I'm proud to be engaged in dialogue that gets us there I don't like to plug stuff but I do think at this moment um this book is actually useful it's called nobody casualties of America's war on the vulnerable from Ferguson to Flint and beyond I wrote this I wrote this six years ago I came out four years ago to talk about Flint in Baltimore and Ferguson and all these things I didn't want to talk about what it meant to be killed by police or what it meant to have lead in your water I want to talk about the historical processes that got us there I wanted to talk about the conditions underneath that keep us there but I also learned to leave with a sense of hope that again we don't have to be prisoner to this moment we don't have to be what we once were that the world can be different and better or more fair and more just and more free than we could even imagine and I believe that all of us together can make that happen that was great look you were ready for that look at that 20 seconds left that was also Wow yes thank you guys for watching the latest episode of the Candice Owens show I hope you guys enjoyed the conversation as much as I did as many of you guys already know Prager U is a 501c3 nonprofit organization which means we need your help to keep all of our content free to the public please consider making a tax-deductible donation today I would really appreciate your support

Channel: PragerU

Views: 3,402,109

Keywords: prageru, prager university, candace owens, blexit, blm, mlk, black americans, black america, systemic racism, systemic oppression, oppression, white privilege, equity, equal opportunity

Id: HjDUUU-Z-aI

Length: 81min 1sec (4861 seconds)

Published: Sun Jun 28 2020

Reddit Comments

[u/[deleted]]

Love you Candace you’re a hero in these crazy times.

[u/[deleted]]

I am impressed by both of their willingness to discuss their differences. Kudos to both!

Superb performance by Mrs. Owens! I hope to see her running for office in the near future. Or whichever institution she sees herself fit to lead. Best of luck to her!

[u/postwtfiwant2]

I’m fairly new to Candace. Fuck me she’s a beast.