The Aryan Brotherhood & Redemption Part 2

let's get rolling uh people hate when i tap the table but it is what it is so uh for those of you who don't know i'm mason that's shane this is the damage done podcast uh as uh i wanted to point out we know why uh most of you are here and i'd like to say before we go any further you know this is this is this is our show and this show this is not a prison show we're not making a uh move into the prison space that's that's just not what we do here shane and i we're both criminals drug addicts of the worst kind we live differently now so we have people on our show that live differently tell stories not just to reach criminals not just to reach addicts but every human as corny as it sounds every human suffers and the people that do the most damage quote unquote damage done tend to be the ones who have the most value to make some of the most miraculous recoveries and can add some of the most value to people you want to add in on that yeah absolutely first i want to say welcome back mike it's always a pleasure to see you yeah and thanks for coming back on we'll we'll get into a follow-up of you know the the part one that we did a couple of weeks ago i wanted to just share a little bit of an anecdotal story of my life as well and then we'll i'll touch on a couple of things and then we'll get right into it with mike um so yeah i was a a couple of weeks ago i got to go back to texas and be with my family my youngest brother would got to be married and um was able to stand up there beside him and it was probably one of the happiest moments that i've ever seen in in my family kind of unit that we've had and we've experienced and you know i touch on that because that same brother before i got sober when i was out doing my thing found me overdosed on the bathroom floor with a needle next to me and he said the next morning i didn't know that anybody was there because i kind of woke up on the ground he said to me he didn't know if he wanted to punt continue punching me in the face or to just make sure that i was alive and that's kind of the darkness and where my addiction uh and the role and toll that it played on my family um to the person man i'm able to be now um is just to me it's it's remarkable and that's that's kind of an essence of what this show is about i'm really really big on family and i used to be such a big liability to to them and to anyone that i came in contact with and today i can you know honestly say that i'm an asset to my family um and i'm i'm more or less a rock in my family unit and i'm so grateful to be able to finally be that son and big brother that you know i think the universe and god intended me to be and what i also want to say is kind of the mission statement of the show of the damage done is kind of like this that we are of the belief that based on our life experiences we have experienced the full spectrum of joy and pain of the human condition and our path and experiences from despair and joy puts us in a unique position to be able to add value to others lives and connect with people from all walks of life we intend to tell our stories and have other people who have gone through incredible experiences tell their stories and at essence that's kind of what we're doing here and when we got in touch with mike i think his story is you know one of redemption and hope and also pain and sorrow and violence and and everything that you could get out of it but today he walks as a free man and and that's why we wanted to have him on the show yeah that type those type of stories are important to tell and for the people that could love mike love what we do hate mike whatever it is we do uh even even in even the the the prison niche of youtube or podcasting or whatnot it's just like we we still champion like the criminals of the world it sounds cheesy you might not want us to but again society tends to write people out that cause a large amount of damage in their life and i think again those are some of the people have the most value that can make the most change and and live the most fulfilling lives and that's it man so i'm happy you're back mike i know shane's happier back and based on the feedback of our last episode which we're quite happy with most of the people are pretty happy that you're back um but there's definitely a good amount of people that are pissed off that you're here and then here again and so we're just going to get into it with what the word is with the the especially the people that are that are upset um michael thompson is a liar michael thompson's a rat michael thompson's no good a snitch like michael thompson doesn't deserve a platform mike thompson's a serial killer mike thompson is a master manipulator so with that being said do you understand why people are saying this oh yes i don't uh i don't take issue with anyone's opinion i'm i hold to the strong belief that uh everyone is entitled to their opinion wherever that comes from whether they have their own agenda um i said it before in the first episode that um what other people think of me is really none of my business and i meant that it is really that simple of course but now you're coming out here as a free man you're now cultivating a platform so there's going to be a lot of noise and and the the weather whether it's true whether it's not or whatever they're saying that that's none of your business but people are making their business to try to to discredit you and there's a lot of men that did hard time that feel like you snitched your way out of prison and that that's a slap in the face to all the men that did their time did their time straight up and i i'd like to know what your opinion is on that sentiment well i understand it first and foremost i mean it makes perfect sense to me um you know the idea of snitching or or being a rat um that's part of the subculture that we're talking about it's part of the prison subculture it's part of the outlaw subculture it um yeah i think the presumption is is that um like you said that i snitched my way out of prison when i um when i stepped away from the brand um i did an additional 35 years i didn't receive any special favors in fact my life became much much more difficult not only was i dealing with those very people that are expressing that particular attitude but i was also dealing with law enforcement some of whom were corrupt who held the same belief for the same reason so really what it comes down to is everyone has their own agenda their own thinking you know relative to what i've done but what really matters is what i think about what i've done and that's why i say what other people think of me is none of my business they're entitled to their belief system um indeed they're entitled to their um opinions and you understand their belief system and their opinions you're not discrediting that you you get where they're coming from a very intimate level yes on a very intimate level okay it uh i suppose the distinction that um should be made is that uh when i stepped away from the brand it was with purpose it wasn't about testifying against any and everybody that i could testify against and indeed i refuse to testify in the rico prosecution um does that get talked about a lot does that get talked about a lot you you not testifying enrico because the word is you're the most prolific star witness for the government there's ever been but you would think if that sentiment is there isn't true i'm not sure you speak on it that you would testify in a rico case so why didn't you testify in the ricoh case well because i was aware of the other individuals who were testifying and i was aware of what their testimony was and it was not in keeping with what i believed to be the truth okay so i saw the wreck coming and i informed law enforcement that i wouldn't be testifying in that case now and of course just like the subculture of prison and others who adhere to that uh basic philosophy uh there was a presumption uh that i would uh testify in any and everything but um you know as i said in the last episode the first case i testified in had to do with uh the killing of innocent people the second case i testified in was um a young lady who had given evidence against a member of organized crime and the feds hit her out and those people that she had testified against found out where she was at okay so they made they sent two shooters up to where she was at and they broke into the house her boyfriend was on the couch they shot him she had two six-year-old twin baby girls uh they wrapped their arms around the teddy bears and they held the mother while they shot the little girls in the head and then they executed the mother um these are the type of cases that i've testified in i've taken a stand for as i said not against anyone or anything but i take a stand for the idea that the taking of a child's life or a woman's life or an elder's life is not in keeping with my belief system it's really that simple those who oppose me um in having taken that position they may condone that type of conduct they may condone that type of behavior i cannot and i will not fair enough so you my my understanding and what i just kind of just my what i digested there what you just said is you know other other members or people that have reached out to us or commented that did time and all of that regard you as a snitch but in your the way that you're viewing it or the was rooted in principle right they did things that you were against doing and in that notion it was you know you had the conviction and enough fortitude to go ahead and turn on them and you know abandon the your brothers or the brand or however you viewed them at that time um was rooted more in principles than than anything else yes i mean that's well said uh because that's really the bottom line it i did what i did because i believed it was the right thing to do um there was never any suggestion by anyone nor would i have allowed it had there been that i would receive preferential treatment that i would be released from prison early as i said when i stepped away from the brand i did an additional 35 years a total of 45 years so these very people that we're talking about are fully aware that many many people negotiate their way out of prison by turning state's evidence that was not the case with me it's a matter of public record i've been to the board of parole hearings 19 times and um there's never any mention of my cooperation with law enforcement before the board and the reason there isn't is because i wouldn't allow it uh it's really that simple i told the board uh each time that when and if i'm released from prison it'll be based on the merits of who i am um not uh what i've done with law enforcement or otherwise i've never taken the position that um i'm a witness for the state i've cooperated with defense attorneys as well as prosecution you know my position as a witness like any witness like any citizen was to simply get on the stand and truthfully tell what i knew and then it was up to the jury to decide how that was to play out relative to the people that were on trial now there are a lot of people that that don't agree with that and i understand why um and that is their prerogative again uh but when people make assertions or allegations i would like to think that those come firsthand as opposed to second hand and third hand and a lot of what i've heard since the first episode is second and third hand and that's okay too but the the real issue here is is that when people do make allegations they should do their homework they should do the research everything that i've done as a matter of public record every case i've testified in anyone can go into the public record and see just exactly what i testify to so that's really a no-brainer yeah the real issue for most people is this idea of snitching or ratting and again like i said that's their prerogative if if they're okay with like the scenario i just described where um you know they wrapped these little girls arms around their teddy bears and shot them in the head while the mother was forced to watch and then killed her um that's on them um i'm not going to condone that under any circumstances i'm a firm believer that man to man head up that was the way it always was and as far as i'm concerned i still don't have a problem with that but that's not to suggest that i'm advocating violence i'm not okay but you know the point needs to be made that particularly in the prison system um it's a completely different subculture than um most people in the public are aware of and it can be extremely violent and i was a part of that violence and so um there are certain rules that go along with that yeah when i stepped away from the brand i had no expectations other than of myself as long as i was in keeping with what i expected myself to do that was fine i was not worried about anyone else's expectations of me if they had a problem that's their problem absolutely and we'll touch on a couple more problems but it's not just a problem so because people need to be answered more than you're giving them answers but in the in the in the last episode um you definitely told a lot of stories and we are obviously under some kind we you us three we all know that we're under some time constraints and you have uh been on this earth for quite some time and you were in prison for 45 years which is much longer than i've been alive so i understand why there wasn't context one of the issues people had was he's he's painting himself to look like he's some saints and this guy is actually much more of a violent wild person and one of the main things also that individuals had issues with as you speak on doing homework is what initially got you put in prison um so the the story was a bit different than was said in the court records so why leave that out and what is actually the story there well there's always a i think a a larger story in anything that you're discussing but when you are dealing with time constraints as we are in this setting uh to address the commitment offense i mean at that time it was the longest trial in orange county history so what you'll see when you go into the court records is you'll see the prosecution's case in chief and that's appropriate because i was convicted but what you're now seeing is a result of um i mentioned last time i had a 1437 motion before the court it's a petition and um it deals with the felony murder rule and that's what i was convicted under was the felony murder rule okay and what that essentially says is that when you aid and abet somebody in the course of a felony that you're held accountable in totality for whatever that felony carries by way of of charge so in this case like i said the story is involved elaborate but the bottom line is i've always maintained my innocence as it relates to that sure and finally we're back in court um primarily because the person that testified against me in that case uh when he went before the board of parole herrings he told an entirely different story and it was actually the story that was told in the beginning that i had nothing to do with it he testified in chambers to that fact and then changed his story but when he went before the board of parole hearings that story re-emerged which in fact was the truth so based on that that gave me the opportunity to go back before the court and that's where i'm at now we went into the appellate court on the constitutional issue and we were successful in that so now we're going back into court into the superior court hopefully for a new trial and that's when this time what this individual has testified to under oath before the board of parole hearings will come to the surface and i have every expectation that finally i will be exonerated i hear that another topic i know shane wanted to touch and i think thanks for providing context of that and the way and by the way before even shane jumps in i just want to make sure i have an understanding of it essentially what you're saying is the people are to me it's the people that are doing the research they they they read the story based on what the prosecution was and that that story was different from the the the facts of the case or the truth in the case in this matter is that fair to say it is i'll just give you a brief example the individual i was talking about that testified against me uh in fact said that there was no kidnapped plot that i ran off with one of the victim's wives and you know that was the motive behind the killings but when he testified before the parole board what he said was is that the very two individuals that were victims of that murder approached him to participate in the kidnap against the little girls that never came out in court but it did come out before the board of parole hearings now that that is a very very significant factor absolutely if in fact what he testified to is true and i believe it is then the idea that i manufactured a kidnap plot to run off with a woman is shown to be completely false fair enough yeah want to hop in on this one sure next point mike yeah another thing that came to light is that um when you told the story of lieutenant johnson um and you challenge a lot of people to look up some you know that correctional officer and the things that happened um you know there was no record of a lieutenant johnson ever being killed in the line of duty why is that well that's something that i can't actually answer all i know is that i was told by law enforcement at the time that lieutenant johnson was killed now whether or not that was in the line of duty i don't know i was simply told by hayward barnett who was the detective sergeant in charge of the detail i was uh working with at the time that um that particular group had killed lieutenant johnson uh and the suggestion was that the reason they had was because of his involvement in that melee that occurred in which i was involved and of course that brings up another issue relative to that none of what i was talking about there as it relates to that melee was i involved in alone yeah now i've reached out to individuals that were there that actually are still alive and um they asked me not to use their names now initially when they got back to me i just told them what i was going to do that i was going to tell the story and um did they have a problem with that and they said they didn't have a problem with it but that they prefer i not use their names yeah again the way you are i'm sorry go ahead that's all right it is a matter of public record yeah see everything that i've ever done within the department of corrections uh including that melee they have what they call a 115 disciplinary report and they have an 837 incident report so every guard that was involved in that incident had to write a report about it and who was involved by way of prisoners so it wasn't just me out there with the baseball bats there were other people yeah that participated in that but um you know one of the issues here is when i'm talking about somebody that is still in the joint and is in the mix i have no problem mentioning their name like i did with yogi panel in the last episode um or td bingham but where it comes to other individuals who may be placed in harm's way as a result of me mentioning their name in any capacity by way of retaliation or otherwise because as someone correctly pointed out [Music] there are various factions of organized crime and the vast majority of them have a long memory yes i'm not exempt from that myself so i'm constantly asked about my own safety it's not something i'm concerned about am i aware of course i am i'm constantly contacted by law enforcement about there being an open contract i'm aware of it so i take appropriate precautions i was offered the witness protection program and i refused it um and that goes to the heart again if when you do something that you believe is the right thing to do then you stand for that in whatever capacity um for those that would take the issue with that i understand that but i'm going to live my life just like anybody else um it's that simple no i hear that and i appreciate you providing context i mean it's not that i didn't i know you enjoy the story i enjoyed the stories and whatnot um it was it was it was right it's rather if you're looking back on it's rather bruce lee like we all know that you're not bruce lee i mean i know you're not bruce lee and i would think that the people watching know you're not bruce lee but for some reason they're up in arms about that they're like look at this guy he's he's taking out seven trained assassins and then all of a sudden he's going out and he's wreaking havoc on these people how dare he say these things and they're like mad at us because you're telling the story and it's just like hey man again time constraints and everything you just explained but it's a slide on the organization itself so again context is important okay these weren't seven trained assassins these were seven wannabes that the hierarchy of that particular organization had put out front it's a classic example of what gangs do with individuals that they recruit into their organization they're expendable and so they'll use them in a situation like that i mean they'll take the piece into their hand and you know that when somebody comes at you with a piece taped in their hand that they're not very confident they're worried about it either taking being taken away from them and used on them or they're worried about them dropping it but um no these were not seven trained assassins these were seven wannabes that uh were probably scared yeah um there was probably an extraordinary fear level there and they weren't experienced as fighters particularly not as knife fighters um and so you know their mission was to kill and when you have that many guys uh usually what happens is they get in each other's way and so if you can figure out how to stay out of their way and contend with them at the same time you're typically going to come out of it all right but this uh certainly wasn't anything out of um a hollywood movie yeah where one man dispatched seven trained assassins coming to kill him yeah that is that is rather bruce lee and and um it was nothing like that uh but um yeah so again context is important contact is definitely key another thing i just wanted to tell you this one's not as important but i like i don't even really watch our episodes after we do it because i hate i hate watching myself but i i think i would have remembered if you told me that you got shot 20 times by a 30 odd six at one point in time maybe that did happen i don't know man let the people talk can you add some content did you get shot 20 times at once overall no okay you know i the most i've been shot at one time was five times and that was with the shotgun and uh that was at point blank range and that was td bingham and myself out on the yard we were in an altercation and we both took five rounds from a shotgun at point blank range and uh i'm sure he still has all the lead in him just as i do it's actually very difficult to take an x-ray of me because of it because all the lead blocks the x-ray so i've got them through out my face and up and down my body and but the larger rounds like with the with the 223 that's a sniper round it was i think i said in the last episode it was invented for the purposes of passing through a person and uh the reason for that is is that when someone would come out and help the person who had been shot that would allow the sniper to hit somebody else so the 223 was it's a hot round but it was developed for that reason 30 odd six is something entirely different okay uh the amazing thing is when i was shot with it it went through the flesh of my leg it didn't break bone which is unusual but it did drop me like a sack of potatoes and and again um keeping this in context sure it's a matter of public record each and every time that i was in an altercation i received 25 115s and there were 25 837 incident reports written behind those 115s in a course of four years and um all those were violent all those involved involved knives all those involved uh shots fired and uh i certainly wasn't the only one shot uh that's for sure but um you know the dynamic associated with that just changed drastically it's one of the reasons when they built the new prisons they built the shoe yards in a wing shape um that's so that they could control the very thing that they had been unable to control previously you know we had a we had a yard that was um 150 um uh feet long and 50 feet wide the walls that surrounded it were 50 feet tall and so um everyone knew in order to survive shots being fired and sometimes there were many as as four gunmen up on that wall and you know sometimes you got hit by ricochets as opposed to a direct hit but everyone understood that the key to surviving in a situation like that particularly when you're using knives was to keep moving and everyone did now some days as chicken some days it's feathers some days you get away with it and some days you get hit you know they took the last uh 223 slug out of my back just a few years back and that was only because it had lodged next to my spine it didn't pass through but again um that's a matter of public record anybody in the public has access to that information so for those who take issue with what i'm saying it's real easy just simply do your homework do your research just to add a little bit more clarity what were you in td doing to be getting shot at point blank range with the shotgun we were in an altercation with another faction of organized crime that we had been shipped out of folsom i think i told the story that um you know 16 blacks bgf had been stabbed in one day um they attributed the majority of those to me uh but there were other people involved um td being one um spotsberg being another bobby moore being another in addition to other individuals but they saw us four as the leaders associated with that particular melee they just brought the national guard in to shake down the yard with metal detectors and so everyone thought all the weapons were gone but we had smuggled buck knives in but i'll switch away from that because that's an entirely different story and they shipped us to san quentin when we got there we had learned that um individuals of another faction of organized crime were going to move on an individual that was an associate of the brand the next day they were told not to do it they did it anyway so td and i went out to the yard and um we engaged um those individuals in in combat as a result of that combat uh each of us took um primarily because we were atop our assailants they our assailants were underneath us and we had them down and so we both had our backs to the gunman who was using the shotgun and um he was very proficient with that shotgun and we each took five rounds in the back at point-blank range so that resulted in a potential war between that faction of organized crime and the brand and um so um that created a whole new dynamic of which um generates uh another story um which is so far as how we live well we alleviate we alleviated that war yeah i um we use the subpoena process oftentimes uh in this case uh joe morgan who headed up that other faction of organized crime uh was in the la county jail at the time so he subpoenaed me out to court and uh i took the bus down but when i got down to la they wouldn't let me in the jail so they sent me over to chino palm hall which was the hole and so once i arrived at chino we actually subpoenaed joe from l.a county jail over to chino and we sat down as two groups and worked out our differences relative to alleviating this warfare now the significance of that is to remember that as factions of organized crime within the subculture of prison we had a business drawing and so that business becomes all important if you go to war against each other that shuts down your business and shuts down the generation of your revenues and essentially shuts down the prison so you're you're not making money you're not generating revenues and you're not doing what um you set out to do as a faction of organized crime criminal activity jeez and you guys just peacefully had this meeting on the precipice of war like and and i also want to ask this because you say a subpoena process like you're you're in state prison and you guys are in there and forgive my naivety whatever however you want a tomato tomato you're able to have enough poll where you can get people you know what i need this guy sent down here so we can meet with him that was the thing back in that point in time am i understanding that correctly it was one of the primary objections of the court system is that um you would commit crimes uh to catch a a case and then having caught that case you would use the subpoena process associated with that to conduct what are called confabs the basic misconception on the part of the public and even law enforcement in some cases is that these various organizations within the subculture prison don't incorporate counterintelligence in what they do and that's a huge misnomer they do and they do so successfully so the subpoena process was one means by which i could call people from various prisons all down to a central location to have meetings about our criminal enterprise and in this case uh the criminal enterprise of two organizations and how we might resolve our differences so that we could continue um our business without disrupting that business so um how close was the vegetable mines how close was that meeting to going south and you guys actually go into war and not solving it uh extremely close as in any organization you have hot hot heads and you have um uh individuals who believe that they have to save face that in the face of the general population for instance that you can't project weakness and um so oftentimes um violence does occur as it did in this case yeah so it's offsetting that violence with more violence until our parties are satisfied is really what it comes down to but the real issue is is how to maintain your business enterprise because it is about business controlling your resources generating income and how you go about doing that jesus mike it was said that back in in your time in prison it was a very rough and violent time to be a white inmate is that correct well to be honest with you i think it was a very rough and violent time for for any prisoner i mean it depends on who you ask if um you ask a white man um you'll probably hear that yeah but um you know the same can also be said um you know in the 70s we were still coming through the civil rights era there was a lot of activism going on um and so it was understood in that capacity there were a disproportionate number of of minority races incarcerated um and that that actually helped them establish a power base which they did efficiently and effectively um i've mentioned a few of them you know the black panthers were one the black guerrilla family was another you had other factions that started off the street gangs that eventually came into prison and established their own infrastructures within prison and so far as developing their resources um [Music] but um much of what goes on in the way of those infrastructures is extremely sophisticated and it's about business it's about how you run that business and it's about how you go about ensuring that that business is not shut down because that shuts down revenues and as in the case of all businesses no matter where you go each has an economic base and that economic base represents the power base of that particular organization so if you shut down the business then you diminish the power base of that organization sure one thing that that i've gotten feedback from that i was always curious about is is your policies in a leadership position you undoubtedly had a leadership position with the brand correct yes and so so piggybacking off shane's comment in regards to it being a tough time for whites during your your time in in power let's call it um do you do you agree disagree with the the sentiment that your policies directly led to hell on earth i mean i know prison's already hell on earth it's all relative to who you're subjective to who you're asking but to people that your policies directly affected you know i'm sure there was loss of life based on the amount of violence that the brand carried out in regards to your policies do you feel responsible for that do you agree with that well um i take full responsibility uh for any and everything that occurred under my role as as one of the leaders of the aryan brotherhood it would be ludicrous to suggest otherwise i can say though that when you have the very infrastructure that i'm talking about business-wise and that your goal is to maintain that business focused on your resources then you're not going to allow violence to occur because again that shuts down your business enterprise yeah if the prison goes on lockdown as a result of violence then you're not conducting business you're not making your profits and that's really what it's all about our profits so there there was a structure in place okay that uh ensured that violence didn't occur um and if violence did occur it was selective and it was precision surgical if you will um for that reason so that it had the least impact upon the business itself now there isn't um a faction of organized crime that exists anywhere in prison or out of prison that does not adhere to that policy okay it isn't to say that there aren't times when enforcement doesn't occur it does but oftentimes that has to do with the philosophy of the organization in my particular case um seeing what i saw when i first entered into the organization you know you've heard this bloody and blood out and i mean it sounds good but if you put a knife in the hands of an individual who is not violent and send him on a mission uh to stab somebody to perpetrate violence uh you're setting them up to fail so one of the big shifts under my guidance as a leader was to emphasize the attributes if you will associated with a particular individual now within the criminal community those attributes may involve um dealing drugs or um running prostitution or uh controlling the stills or the packages or or so on so that um i can tell you that in san quentin for instance and folsom alone uh every clerical job that existed we controlled so we controlled the duckett system uh we controlled the movement of the prison because you can't go anywhere for about a decade so if i needed somebody uh i could facilitate that um but and i'm just talking about the infrastructure and the significance of maintaining stability within that so that you can control your profit margins that's really it in a nutshell yeah so i guess more clarity on the question i was asking and kind of maybe i didn't ask it correctly or i guess the brand has a dish has or had a disproportionate amount of membership but also committed a disproportionate amount of violence for the for the number the sheer numbers that you guys had and so i guess a better way to ask it would be you know was it was it harder for you being white being white in there and that's why you guys banded together and i know in the past you said part one of the main things about being in the brand and you rising up in the brand is that each one of the members is an alpha male and if shipped to another yard would be able to control his own environment um so i guess that that kind of segues back into the question that i was asking but we can we can move on because i have a or go ahead you can answer that i can just very briefly sure um you know that idea of an alpha male is oftentimes taken out of context but the term is used to identify a caliber of individual particularly within the subculture of prison so where the brand was concerned there were very few of them but each and every one of them had the capacity to go to any prison within the system and control that prison by themselves that was a requirement and those that were striving toward uh becoming a member um cultivated you know that um capacity capacity within themselves um and there's a certain skill set that goes along with that and a part of that skill set of course is the ability to commit extreme and extraordinary violence by yourself um and that's usually the case so that while those individuals are the ones that are committed to that course of action the rest of the population is not and that's the distinction between the two and then i i want to ask a question that's a little i guess that's been pondering in my mind so one thing i'd like to know is you you know you mentioned that you grew up native with you know the horses and the land and you know the elements and the spirit how was it that you came into prison and i know that you've touched on wanting to control your environment you just alluded to kind of i guess maybe it was the alluring nature of the a you know the brand or a b when they recruited you but how did you switch on to become such a violent person if that wasn't your nature in as you know um that's what i want to know kind of the psyche behind that yeah it really comes down to survival you know when you assess your situation uh if you have the wherewithal to do that in other words to take in your terrain to know your terrain to know what you're dealing with then you you take stock of that you you make an assessment of it uh and in that assessment uh you make a decision that you're either going to be controlled by your environment or you're going to control it and if you understand that you have the capacity for that within yourself it really is a survival mechanism so um and it varies with the individual i mean it truly is designer specific to the individual as to the degree of violence that you will engage in the extent to which you will go for those people for instance that are going to do their homework and are going to research this what they will find is that in all the knife fights i was in i never took life i didn't have to um i subdued my enemy and once they were subdued that was enough now i received a lot of criticism over that because they you know the the contention is is that if you leave that person alive you leave them alive to come back and hurt you another day and um i simply never believed that and in fact it never happened so it's it's an individual choice but that choice uh is brought about um by virtue literally by virtue of a survival instinct in the individual and if your skill set is such that it facilitates that survival then you're going to establish yourself as i did in a leadership role so it's touching on that it said it i think the number that flows out there on the internet is that you've taken 22 lives right and there's some people that since this episode has come out they in particular said you're there's he's directly responsible for killing my friend his name is such and such blah blah blah blah you contend that none of that's true you've never actually killed someone when people say this guy's literally a killer he literally would he he's so precise on how he kills people he'll he'll literally wait for you to turn your back stab you kill you order hits he's a violent man how do you respond to that well first and foremost i've i've never in all my knife heights stabbed anybody in the back all my knife fights have been head up that person had a knife and i had a knife um you know it's like in anything else you have a winner and you have a loser have i been strategic in my knife fights yes you know when they say that i stabbed an individual with purpose i've taken an individual's lung it's called popping along with a strategic blow with my knife to drop him and incapacitate him and it had that impact um with other individuals i mean you know you don't come out of these things uh unscathed um particularly if you're in a melee but you know one-on-one even in a one-on-one you don't come out of it unscathed uh no matter how proficient you may be um you know this nose on your screen has been busted 16 times it's been pushed all the way over into my eye socket i've went blind in my eye for three years um i've broken bones uh which i set myself that ought to create some controversy um but uh you know that's a reality um for those that uh um lived back in the day when i did they know that what i'm saying is the way that it was um you didn't report uh knife wounds um i mean i've been in situations where a guard was right there on the tear and i told him don't move and the other individual and i did what we had to do and when it was over i told the guard get him off the chair and um and he did so um now that may sound extreme but that's the nature of the beast yeah um uh particularly in a prison environment and particularly back in the 70s um so the guards had a particular and specific um philosophy and they would tell you that it was their job to contain the perimeter and they did just that they had gun towers they had gun rails they walked those gun rails with weapons they sat in those towers with weapons and they made sure that nobody escaped because you can read it to this day in the department of corrections philosophy their number one priority is the protection of the public and that means that they do not let anybody that is confined within a prison escape from that prison and that's their primary role now to prison has changed drastically over the decades with the construction of new prisons and there's a philosophy and there's training and everything else that goes along with that but you had the development for instance of the green wall which was a gang of prison guards who conducted themselves really in similar fashion as the brand or any other organized crime faction within that subculture now um the individual that um exposed that was a member of the uh security squad at the time and so he had uh intimate knowledge and just as i do about the organization with which i was involved and he exposed that and of course he suffers the same ridicule you know rat snitch as i do but it took enormous courage on his part to expose that now oftentimes people will make a distinction but there really is no distinction we're talking about um a subculture that's a controlled environment and um where you have guards that are conducting themselves as if they're gang members um then oftentimes what happens is that the gangs that are there in prison will treat that as if it's another gang the difference is is that they've got to step up because they've got a license to do it they've got the intelligence they're in control they have the weapons and so it um it creates an entirely different situation so i i want to ask a quick question uh two questions first and foremost paint a clear picture so you would be getting in these knife fights and you would get stabbed whoever else that you you know stabbed might be maybe having to go to the hospital infirmary but you would just go back to your cell and just triage in there with stab wounds yeah typically it depended i mean if there's some duct tape in there if duct tape if duct tape was available probably yeah but uh what the hell the fact of the matter is is that when things like that happen like when you read the 115s for instance they'll say um eight shots from the um m14 were fired and but they don't tell you who was hit by it and so what happens is that everybody goes to the hospital that was hit and they triage it i mean actually what they do is they take a probe and they probe the wound and if it hit nothing vital if there are no broken bones um then essentially they send you back to your cell um you know and that in and of itself is um another point of dealing with adversity uh the contention is that those individuals that put themselves in that situation to maintain control over the prison and the population [Music] put themselves at risk and whereas the general population wouldn't do that so that is that's a matter of coming with the territory but i've laid in my cell after being shot unable to move your body goes into shock yeah and um you know they would they had a slot in the bottom of the door and they would slide your tray in and it'd take you about an hour to roll over and put your face in it and eat what you could and take about another hour to roll back over and you've broken up in just a profuse sweat and it's very painful and um you know in the cell i was in it was only a hole in the floor and pretty soon you feel the little feelers of the cockroaches that have come up out of that hole in the floor crawling across your body and you can't even lift your arm to brush them off so what i did is i named them as [ __ ] you know so i gave each one of them a name they would come up and they would eat the food off my face and they go back to their hole but that is really no big thing but it does require discipline yeah i think so it's wild yeah so it's fair to say you've taken some damage in prison that's another thing that just came to mind that we didn't touch on but people are just so outraged man they're just so mad like there's one comment in particular which is kind of funny because i like the ufc i don't know if you like ufc but the the the lightweight the former lightweight champ now khabib nur khabib okay his last name is hard to say he's undefeated and sort of like who's this guy is he he's he thinks he's khabib he's 29-0 undefeated you know he never loses i mean you take some damage you ever uh find yourself on the losing end or are you khabib of prison undefeated well it's not a question of it it depends on who you ask yeah really is what it comes down to i mean i came out of a situation where uh i had my nose pushed into my eye socket my skull cracked i went blind but that wasn't at the hands of another prisoner that was at the hands of staff and um you know that was a result of um um three men that i'd been in an altercation with that had to be meta-backed out of that location i was laying on the floor and the helicopter pilot that was medevacing them out drop kicked my head and um so i mean i've broken bones the damage has been um a lot i mean it's uh i could go on all day telling war stories i'm i'm not a great fan of telling war stories i know and that's actually it's i'm i actually i do mean to cut you off because i think it's important to talk about that people up in arms about that like all this you guys could have gotten into this part of that part like because they these people are i guess uh the brand that they're that's like it's like they took a course on it and they know all these things and they're so mad we didn't ask things but it's so funny they think they know what we should do or or or how we should go about you actually don't like the war stories and in your only time the war stories that give context and that's simply it is am i wrong well you're not wrong the thing to understand is that there's always a much broader picture and a much broader story associated with that i am not a an advocate any man who's ever been engaged in the type of violence that i've been engaged in um i think naturally does not like to talk about it um i mean where's the value in that i mean i've been on yards where i drove up to the yard and went out to the the weight pile and was just standing there and heard people telling stories to one another and realized that the stories they were telling were altercations that i had actually been involved in they're telling your stories and yes and and there's a lot of people that like to do that and that's okay i don't have a problem with it more power to you um but i think that um with the type of violence that i've been involved in and particularly when you go back to the point that i made the decision to engage in that type of violence for survival reasons it's not something that you're proud of certainly i'm not but i am glad that i survived um and i did it to the best of my ability i mean again you know one must draw the distinction uh it's an individual choice as to what you do and how you do it sure but no man that i know of that's ever been involved in the type of violence that i have enjoys talking about it is certainly not going to boast about it and excuse me the last thing i want to do is glorify it absolutely that's never mind that's never my intent on the contrary yeah and that's not our that's not our point here too it's important to give context to how violent of a person you were not i mean of course it's spicy and it draws people in but it to me in my opinion it gives context to a transformation um because you no longer live that way you're not proud of it you're not happy about that i think that's important to talk about so sorry to let those people down that don't want war stories maybe when you come out with your show you'll talk about more war stories and more context but this is not that um but i do want to touch on some other stories just to yeah we've talked about a lot of violence here but uh things you are able to get away with this one blows my mind there's a story about you smuggling a gun into tracy what's up with that it's true um you know again you know the individual that was involved in that yeah i asked his permission to um disclose this he doesn't have a problem with me disclosing it but he just doesn't want me to mention his name but yeah we brought um the 38 smith and wesson into the institution in a box of shells and and uh um i made a silencer for it a suppressor is really what it was you're not going to silence a revolver but it was a suppressor and um you know the plan was during the warfare with this particular faction this group um is that i was going to um go into each unit there were four units and execute six individuals um in each unit that was the actual plan um the blessing is is that i didn't get a chance to carry that out um but i was against uh up against um enormous odds um we all were um and we had an administration that was actually helping um that faction and so we were looking for something that would have a a striking effect a striking impact that might even be so striking that it would bring the press in and alleviate um some of that power structure because it was extreme i mean the administration um was prosecuted along with this organization they were subject to the first ricoh prosecution and the members of that administration were prosecuted right along with them so the plan was at any rate to bring the gun in the problem was is that we brought it in from the dairy and we put it in a plastic bag and the moisture from it being buried in the dirt uh rusted the cylinder so we brought it in we figured out the the cylinder was rusted so we put it in a can of oil meanwhile um someone um [Music] told that the gun was in the institution and that i had control of it so it's the only time i've ever seen him bring a weapon inside the institution and uh they it was a shotgun and they put it right in the back of my head and they cut my clothes off me and um of course i didn't have the weapon and they took me from there and that's when they put me in that car i told in a previous episode and took me off to folsom so again that's part of a much broader story where there were other people involved um and but that was just one incident and that wasn't the only time that i smuggled again a gun into prison i smuggled two guns into san quentin those were um freedom arms uh stainless steel um five shot derringers uh wendell norris uh blue who's since passed um had one and i had the other one wendell attempted to use his to escape he pulled it on two guards who were transporting him outside the prison and the two guards jumped out of the the van that they were transporting him in and just left him going on down the freeway with his gun but they never got mine but i did have it and um you know that in addition to uh buck knives and and um other such weapons how was it even possible to get i mean i kind of touched on how you got into tracy but then now now you're saying you got this in san quentin and you got buck knives you have your your system of defeating metal detectors based on the things you studied and that that falls under that umbrella you you knew wade it does yeah yeah you figure if you look at um again anybody can go online and look up freedom arms they're five shot derangers of stainless steel and um anytime you're dealing with um 440 or above stainless steel that's the grade the pure the alloy so it's a matter of insulating that from the electrical eddies in the metal detector penetrating that and disrupting the magnetic flux and setting it up so it can be smuggled the gun can be smuggled just like the buck knife they're actually approximately the same size and um so um yeah that was uh another time sure when that did occur and you just somehow you just it was better to need it and not have it than have it and not or have it not needed or whatever that kind of mentality obviously you didn't use it or you probably wouldn't be a free man today that's a fact but it's also indicative of a power base okay um particularly when you're holding a leadership role okay and it's um excuse me i mean um any man i don't care who he is is subject to defeat um and so that if you increase that power brace power base beyond just your your known physical promise it has a chilling effect upon anybody who might be contemplating usurping that power base sure um so i want to touch on like uh you want to touch on a couple of things you have something to bring up sure yeah mike what was your relationship like with barry mills and tyler bingham and at any point td yeah and at any point did you ever fear that no okay no no i didn't know baron um you know i think we were in san quentin about the same time but he shipped off to the feds i think um 77 and um but td i knew well we were in folsom together and we were in san clinton together and he paroled and he came back in but very intelligent man hell of a fighter and a force to be reckoned with intellectually and physically which is why he maintains a leadership role so but baron i know went to the feds and when we went national the feds became a part of that i know that uh baron was a part of the infrastructure in the feds as is td um and but that's about the extent of you know my knowledge um like i said i know td uh um a lot better um from personal association and and uh having stood back to back with him on the yard uh in confrontations and that was a frequent thing you guys fighting alongside one another yes yes interesting just out of my curiosity this is kind of a little off topic but you you're clearly you're quite a violent and feared man but i want to know maybe it's easier for you to admit it now maybe not then but was there an inmate at any point in time in there that was that that you feared that was that was a force to be reckoned with that it caused some sort of fear or cause you to be more on guard i don't believe so it's it's not a question of being fearless it would be ludicrous to suggest that okay i think every human being is subject to fear it's how you deal with fear that makes the difference and by that i simply mean that in the face of adversity if you react based on fear as opposed to respond um based on a skill set and the experience that you've acquired uh in mastering adversity um that's the distinction and that's what makes the difference sure so you cannot in my opinion exist within a subculture like that and embrace fear on any level particularly when you're dealing with spontaneous situations and that's where you're conditioning in every capacity sure experience is probably one of the best the first time for instance you're involved in a melee on the yard everything happens very very quick and it's hard to keep up with but about your fourth time out everything kind of moves in slow motion and you see everything clearly and that's that experience kicking in you know the the mind has a virtual reality so it no longer has to take in certain aspects of the art and individuals it's already there in that virtual reality sure so that's um actually very beneficial yeah and dealing with ever whatever adversity you're dealing with so you dealt with uh you deal with those adversities the main adversity in my opinion beyond all the violence and we'll shift over back to the transformation and give more context what you're doing now but the adversity of spending the rest of your natural life in prison and then getting out right so the the the lead up to that for for almost your whole life in there 45 plus years you thought you're never getting out i i would like to discuss the actual internal experience of your release kind of what led up to it and then the actual moment that you knew you were getting out what that was like and then what it was like when you first stepped outside of prison after 45 years well again context i think is important once i stepped away from the brand and began to reconnect with my way of life the question i'm asked most actually is how did i survive 45 years and my immediate answer has always been by staying connected to my way of life now obviously there was a point in time there when i deviated from that and so i had to find my way back but it actually wasn't that difficult because it was the principles associated with my way of life were deeply ingrained and what i had done was i had avoided them i guess is the best way to explain it i had suppressed them and um you know in the context of 45 years there's a lot that occurs by way of what's called arrested development okay so that when i stepped away that arrested development was allowed to come to the forefront and i was allowed to confront myself and that in truth is the most difficult confrontation i've ever experienced because i had to look at myself the things that i'd done the behaviors i had engaged in and particularly those things that went contrary to the principles and the values that i was raised with but that connection is a result of of my way of life and by that i mean my spiritual foundations um allowed me very quickly to reconnect now the sweat lodge and the red the red road is what we call it uh went a long way towards facilitating that but um that still required um recognizing um my own shortcomings sure as it relates to that and looking them squarely in the face and um confronting myself with that and being honest with myself um and really it begged the question is this the type of man is this type of individual that you want to continue to be and the answer was no um so whether you're dealing as in my case with extreme and extraordinary violence or you're dealing with addiction um it's all relevant um you know trauma is all relevant and understanding the source of that trauma it's actually what moved me uh toward um looking at life more holistically which were actually my original teachings and um you know what it is to be a human being but what i found more so than anything else in making that transition and it is a it is a point of transcendence okay um that you engage in um that becomes critical towards self-awareness um and it's not a question of being selfish just simply self-awareness what you believe and why you believe it what you think and why you think it what's the basis for that um and then answering the question and then making the choice because ultimately that's what it comes down to is choosing sure you know your path your your course of action whatever it's going to be choosing and if you can make that choice um based on what you understand your code to be um as it relates to values and principles and if there is a sense of morality within you what that is but that process right there um facilitates uh by way of experience if you allow it humility um because i very much believe that humility can't be taught in fact when i went before the parole board that uh resulted in my release from prison the uh commissioner his name was randy grounds he was a former warden he was an old what we call an old schooler and um during the course of the hearing itself um i just simply spoke my truth i didn't try to rationalize i didn't try to justify i just simply stated the way things were the very discussion that we've had this evening relative to survival mastery and adversity and everything that comes along with that being confronted with certain things and and choosing not to condone nor be associated with that and that clearly i think given his experience resonated with him but as in the previous 18 hearings at this 19th hearing i had no expectation that i would be granted parole so that when he did grant grant me parole um it was overwhelming i'm sure um but you know i the thing i most remember about that um is that they sent me out of the room and they had uh mr grounds had the guards placed me in a holding cage and then um once everything was cleared away he had me brought back in and as i walked into the room he extended his hand and he shook my hand and he said i i need to tell you something and he said i would appreciate it if you would listen to me he said you're a very humble man he said if you will embrace that humility daily you won't have any problems out there in the free world and i understood immediately what he was saying um and that humility is all important but again i want to stress that i don't believe that it can be taught it's not something that we make a part of our curriculum or anything else it's for the individual to decide um you know how they feel about themselves how they feel about their surroundings how they feel about the rest of humanity and if they can find love and peace in their heart and if they can project that in any capacity uh the result is typically um humility sure um and that's just you know some people refer to it as wisdom i think wisdom is the same thing it comes from your life experiences you see i i just you know i've been on this earth seven decades and um i still consider myself a child um yeah when i go before my elders and my elders speak i keep my mouth shut um because as far as i'm concerned they have something significant to say and that's always been my experience with them that when they do speak um the gift that i can give relative to that is to listen and because listening is a gift it's also an act of humility on the part of the individual it's being receptive it's being open to what's being said it's taking it in it's um engaging and embracing the spirit of whatever they're saying and allowing that to speak to you and that in some is a point of redemption okay you see redemption isn't about in my opinion uh forgiveness uh redemption is about making immense in whatever capacity that you're comfortable with and that you're able to commit to forgiveness comes from those individuals that you've objectified that you've victimized that you've terrorized and i've done all that um in a multitude of capacities so i don't ask their forgiveness that would be inappropriate but i do believe that in walking the path that i'm walking that it exemplifies that redemption and so it's through my deeds through my actions that um are are the proof if you will if anyone's looking sure um i personally don't need that proof uh i'm content uh with who i am i'm at peace with who i am and um so um i also believe i i think i should say this is that redemption is a lifelong goal it's not something that just happens overnight okay i'm redeemed um now get on with my life particularly in my case it doesn't work like that i've had innumerable people innumerable people help me over the years and were not for their help i don't believe i would be sitting here today and so the responsibility on my part is to give back yeah in whatever capacity that i'm capable of um and so um that's what i endeavor to do yeah and that's what you're doing with live learn and prosper that's that's that is in a sense your your your mission in life and part of your redemption that's you're giving back to others that are incarcerated and now to all humans so very simply um at the risk of sounding like a cliche it's okay to live is to learn and to learn you see is to prosper in whatever capacity that may be it's you know prosperity is not about financial gain or economic gain uh in and of itself it's it's about the gain we acquire toward our humanity and being a human being and what that means um you know i love my life um and i have reason to love my life uh that's because through this process of reconnecting with my way of life i'm at peace and i share um some extraordinary relationships with all my relations um including our earth mother yeah and the tree people the rock people i mean it's it's all about relationships that's what community is it's that connection absolutely and it to just kind of tie back into the relationships that pop something popped in my head something that i could imagine you struggled with before you were ever released is is family relationships friend relationships support network relationships right do you think you're going to spend the rest of your natural life in prison were you did you ever find yourself alone like uh did everyone give up on you did you did you cut off communication with people for some sort of reason because you thought there's no reason to keep those relationships cultivated where did you find yourself before you were ever released it's one of the things i most appreciate about you guys you you you ask great questions and they go right to the heart of the issue of the damage done in redemption you see because it is about relationship and not just cultivating relationship but the authenticity associated with that relationship the sincerity but also recognizing the impact that my previous actions had not only upon myself but more importantly upon my family upon the community you'll oftentimes hear it referred to as the ripple effect and there is a ripple effect um and um the the result can be catastrophic absolutely catastrophic and so i've never taken the position that i don't want to be in relationship or or that i don't need other people i do need other people i'm in some wonderful relationships but that doesn't just apply to two leggeds that doesn't just apply to human beings it applies to all my relations in a relationship that i share with them um i could sit here all night and tell you creation stories associated with that that has helped me become more fully human and understand the significance of relationships across the board but particularly um with other human beings and i've been blessed uh immensely blessed uh by those relationships that i do share with other human beings and so they were there with you the whole time even through through the dark i mean all 45 years are dark but i'm sure towards the end when you started getting some hope they didn't just pop back in they were they were there with you every time you were being denied parole and then through that moment when you finally got released you're saying you're grateful for those relationships you still had them you weren't all on your own no i was never all on my own um and i never felt that way good there was always a connection um that was there for me i mean something as simple as uh attempting to educate myself and you know because i'm dyslexic having difficulty learning um and you know professors at the university i was attending at the time you know taking the time to come out to the prison drag a chair down the tear pull it up in front of my cell and say okay mike what's the problem i mean it's it's commitment like that um to my way of thinking it requires enormous courage on the part of the individual to give of themselves in in that capacity to another human being when first and foremost it's not required of them it's not part of their job description but the belief is that they see something in you that sparks in them their sense of of commitment to their own humanity and they're willing to share that with you and they do that with love and they do that with caring and they do that with enormous generosity sure and there's a great lesson in that if you find it within yourself to embrace that um it can be extraordinarily telling on your own humanity absolutely and there's a couple there's two things i just want to get some more detail on and then i know shane has a couple questions before we end up closing out but i'm super interested in again the the internal the internal experience the day that you got the news you released like what happened once you got that news so can you can you go over that and then kind of end that with the first thought and feeling of of of being released into this new world you're gone for 45 years so you're coming out to a new world this is not the world you knew what was that experience for you yeah it's really where you know i think most males particularly as a result of one the western ethos with which i was raised but just um you know the male psychic in general tends to be stoic and so we suppress our emotions in the face of adversity and um i think initially i had to wait three months for the governor to approve my release and um that was trying but my concern was not for myself my concern was for the um impact that it was having upon my family um because they had been given hope but what we all understood as a family was that the the basis for all hope is faith and um we never lost faith and so when that day finally came and the governor gave his approval and i was processed out of prison my lovely wife was waiting for me now to suggest that it was anything less than surreal would be an understatement um [Music] because the biggest concern i suppose that i had and that she had was sensory overload um coming out into an environment where you have cars and people and movement and um and and indeed that did happen you know we hear a lot today about ptsd sure post-traumatic stress disorder and um it's very very real and it comes in many many different forms so that when you're geared literally geared you know your your molecular makeup is geared on a biological level to a specific environment and now you're removed from that environment into an environment that is totally foreign that can be daunting to say the least so that's really where that support system comes in now i went into a transitional housing facility and the blessing there is is that again the people that service that facility amity is great organization and you know i meant individuals that uh were actually counselors and facilitators that had been out for two three four five years that had been life prisoners who had been paroled who went to work as counselors and were there for the sole reasoning reason of helping me acclimate in the face of that sensory overload and again you know that's um many people um in service um to other people and and uh you know we had started llp in prison they've learned and prosper um with the same goal in mind that you know why wait until you get out of prison let's start the process here in prison and not only was i teaching those courses my wife wrote the curriculum but not only was i teaching it um but i was attempting to live by it but even in that the transition for me uh was enormous and i think it's it's uh by and large the same for everybody that does a lot of time that is released and um is dealing with uh particularly that sensory overload but it's about relationship again too i mean if one of the things we try to teach in in prison is um you know how to develop a relationship you know that self-confrontation so that when you arrive at that point where you're going to be released you have a skill set in place that helps you facilitate your acclimation your reacclimation to society as a law-abiding citizen you know that is is extremely important um you know something is simple i had been out of the system for so long that when i went to get my driver's license they told me no because they said i was dead um i was no longer in their system and uh to this day i still deal with the same problem with the irs and other government agencies so you don't have to pay so long out of the system you don't have to pay taxes well to hear to hear me tell it i don't but to hear them tell it i certainly certainly do man you could have got away with being dead on that one that's cool man yes no it's fantastic um so even before shane jumps in that that fight that experience lots of lots of nerves i'm assuming waking up that that morning you're like i'm finally going home you see your wife i i would imagine for me it would be like jumping out of an airplane going skydiving well it would be hard for us to yeah yeah i don't think that compares i mean first and foremost the presumption is that i went to sleep which i did you know the idea of sleep are you kidding yeah the fact that you you can step outside and take in the moon i mean um there was so much to experience but just to be able to step outside and take in um air wow and um you know to to feel yourself a part of um what you just been released to yeah and you know that can be very very difficult and that's why it's so important to have a skill set in place sure to help you acclimate you know to help you help your family help you acclimate to help them acclimate to you being home that's something you don't hear a lot about but you know the family has to go through that too absolutely you know you you would think after those many years that they know you but they really don't and that's where you get into something um as difficult as arrested development you know when i went into prison i just turned 22. um so you step out in your late 60s um and all that maturation that could have occurred as a result of your life experiences that any normal human being has in society uh was not afforded me so in many ways i'm like that that youngster that went to prison particularly as it relates to my emotional intelligence which i was extremely lacking in and you know i'm again blessed um my wife saw that she recognized that and so we took it upon ourselves to work on that together and through that experience we make that now a part of what we teach others because we realize how significant that arrested development can be sure absolutely so in kind of in closing i want to say a couple of things first and foremost i just want to say you know the clarity and the fortitude and the digging deep and the perseverance that you you know that you like displayed and did in in self-discovery in your own life i tip my hat to you um thank you it's very it's it's i think it's the the road that's less traveled um you know it's that fully surrendering and the fearlessness behind it it's it's yeah it's it's amazing and and i'm grateful that you you know we cross paths and you're kind of on this side of the fence now but one question that i did want to ask is how did you find your meaning and purpose or your true north um which it seems that you have found it you know as i speak to you and as i've met you and and everything like that but how did you discover that how did you how did that maturation process occur in your life uh the short answer is by fully embracing what love means to me um and that's all encompassing um i think each and every person it's designer specific as to what not just love means to you but what relationship means to you and what you bring to that what you're willing to bring to that what you want to bring to that um and these are all factors but when you render it all down for me it it comes down to loving the fact that you're a human being um enjoying that um and engaging on every level with that love in relationship intimately um by choice um and that for me is really the bottom line i mean it um i understand that there are people who don't understand that i'm overwhelmed by the capacity that we as human beings have for love and i'm a firm believer that if we will simply embrace each other on some level um with love with intimacy with authenticity with compassion with empathy um then all of us as human beings will be much better off absolutely you want to follow with that last part you had just some actionable steps just to give some advice to people oh some action that's what that's where you kind of wanted to go i know that's it's always important we always want to ask people that are on here i know that you basically are through through your stories you're you're giving the suggestions indirectly with with some actionable steps to make a change in their life but i guess what's the most important like baseline actionable step someone could take to just sort of change their perception on how they view the world to get some different results people are angry hurt miserable scared all these types of things that put him in a perpetual state of misery and uh for me it's like gratitude that's that's some baseline corny stuff that works for me but what is it for you well i think gratitude is high on the list i i think i said it before that each and every day you know i embrace my gratitude because i have a lot to be grateful for but fundamentally what it comes down to is that to understand that one size doesn't fit all right but it is designer specific and that there are an array of modalities or models um that one can embrace toward attempting to understand their path their course of action their pursuit of redemption maybe in some capacity but for me it's holistic and you know that comes from my teachings um within the native community and um i should probably emphasize that you know um when i speak about being native i'm not talking about um being indian that's a term that christopher columbus gave to the indigenous people but for me native is not just a way of life but it's in your heart it whatever your pursuit whatever you think of yourself it's really not even a matter of genetics it's what you believe and so in coming to that holistically you know what's going on with you biologically what's going on with you psychologically um within the social context and of course spiritually and that doesn't mean necessarily religious it just means spiritually your connection um to all your relatives sure and so it's it's i know what works for me yeah and that's a result of realizing that uh it is not as a one-size-fits-all i've had groups and i've counseled others as a life coach and as a counselor where i help them understand that it's their choice it's for them to determine what their path is going to be you're not going to get it from a book you're not going to get it from another person you can take ideas and you can take them in and make them your own you know that's what self-efficacy is albert bandura um originated the uh construct of what it is um um to master yourself and it's called self-efficacy and and i do it all the time i come across people that i admire and i see attributes and traits um in them that i admire and i think my goodness i like that so let me take that in the portion that resonates with me and let me make it my own and then after i make it my own let me monitor it and see if it's authentically me and then i i bring that in holistically to who i am um you know and there's a there's a lot of science that goes along with that uh but i'll spare you the the the scientific dialogue or the narrative um what's most important to understand um is to in monitoring yourself relative to what you believe and why you believe it what you think and why you think it and then that is the foundation for your belief system and from that you evolve um in character but more importantly in your humanity and the goal of course oftentimes what gets in the way of that is trauma and of course that's where you get into brain science and and in other areas but um within the within the native community we have a saying there is nothing that happens in the physical world that cannot be remedied or rectified through our spiritual beliefs and by that we simply mean our belief system and uh i'm a firm believer in that so what's fundamental in that is what is your code what do you believe and why do you believe it and if you do suffer from trauma um are you willing to make that journey back to wherever that trauma occurred absolutely and um well i'll just leave it at that i mean i could go on all night about this of course but i think that's going to be a lot of i mean of course correct me if i'm wrong it's going to be a lot of the work that you i mean you're already doing but are going to be doing so let's close with this man a lot of a lot of people want to know what's next what's next for you i know what's next for you shane knows what's next for you but why don't you tell the people because we know there's people going to be watching first of all we're getting your instagram set up so you want to be a little more social right this is this is fact yes this is not a rumor yes and as you guys could see mike's not here with us but mike's got a nice mic there he's got a little bit of a setup so safe to say you're coming out with your own show yes um you know and i'd like to emphasize that it's not about me it's about live learn and prosper and it's about what we advocate by way of of the very things that i was just talking about yes uh helping others to help themselves um so we are a non-profit and we will be doing our own video cast and our own podcast but um in reality uh when we get into that i'm looking forward to putting my wife before the camera and before the microphone um because um she is an amazing human being um she has a she is an elder she has a wealth of life experience working with death row inmates and their families she's a social historian one of the things we're going to be doing is we're going to be traveling with our portable studio and we're going to be taking the social history of america love it but among amongst all that uh we're going to be posting and we're going to be writing we're going to produce a book um we're doing one book right now called the winter warrior and uh winter warrior is just what it says it's it's um you know making that uh trip around the sacred hoop of life to ultimately we we find who we are and what's the significance of our own lives and then i'll be doing a book also about my life story and we'll be doing many many other writings so and thank you for asking i appreciate it i do it's important to ask about it mike because you know i care about uh what you're doing now a lot of people i'm just going to talk about a lot of people because this is my first experience with a lot of people man and this is our show so we're going to talk about it man uh okay are saying that you're just here you know you're you're manipulating you're doing this and doing that and as i told you i don't know what you're trying to manipulate me for like oh you're i'm gonna get what did i say to you i'm gonna walk down the street get a blow dart to the neck so you could take my apple watch i don't think that's happening so i think it's important that you're painting this grand picture though all in all seriousness it's not just about just michael michael war story war story war story there's a grand picture here and that's that's why i asked that because i know you on this level i understand where all the people that are criticizing you as our last episode they're coming from but again they they haven't had the interactions we had even though they're so short that you wanted to reach across the table when you were sitting there and choke me out or shank me or maybe shank shane i just that's that's that wasn't true because i think i think we're cool unless you again you're manipulating me and then the blow dart scenario happens fair to say it is fair to say i mean it's look those individuals have their own agenda and it may be to promote their own show um and oftentimes i from what i understand they're doing that second and third hand that's their prerogative i suppose they're attempting to generate their own revenues yeah and i understand that as a point of business so i get it you know if they take a position opposing me then that generates contention which generates excitement i mean but the fact of the matter is you've got a great show and what you're doing is a great thing um and i think you're you're on a really good path here and so far as what you're advocating and why you're advocating it thank you i think it helps a lot of people uh the feedback i've gotten is all positive and it's not just about me it's about what you're doing on this show and um you know i absolutely intend uh to draw from my experience with you um in in developing my own i think it's a good format i'm not interested in telling war stories i'm not interested in in explaining to people what the aryan brotherhood was about i'm not going to glorify it um it's my past but it's a part of my experiences that are relevant uh to the point of who i am today as a human being yes and as an individual and that's what redemption is about if um amends means anything it mean it means that and um i i see in both of you that process of making amends that process of redemption you know on your own part and that process of giving back um it's clear and i'm grateful for you thank you as are we for you that was very kind of you to say and uh i look forward to any of the work that we could be useful for to you in any capacity that we can help you with going forward thank you and uh i appreciate you coming on you know he appreciates you coming absolutely we're super grateful to to have you back again and so glad that we crossed paths and you know we're we're now friends i'm grateful to have you yes you know in my life i know our new friend and producer brian is grateful you're on too you can't see him he was helping you set up before but he rather enjoys your stories man and uh we're happy we're gonna get this one out there that's good and uh anything else to say other than thank you that's it man i really appreciate it we'll be in touch and yeah i hope you have a great year and we'll have uh where to follow by the time this comes out mike's instagram it'll be in the apple podcast spotify luminary i heart radio youtube description um again i'm mason not just the the square guy that was wearing the laker thing that needs a haircut now and he's not just the guy on the white shirt that needs to kill himself he's shane so that's who we are and this is also the damage done podcast i would like to uh fellas if you don't mind i would like to express my gratitude to the viewers that uh have provided the feedback in the most positive way it's been the most encouraging way absolutely i'm deeply grateful for that it's it's it's and it it's interesting that you know i let's say it's about 86 to 90 something percent positive but it's it's important to to me i want to give them gratitude to batu to address the some of the negativity because a lot of some of the best context comes from the negativity and we're grateful for that too whether he's directed you me him it's fantastic and thanks for that and again thank you it does it does gotta learn thank you guys for tuning in yes thank you all right fellas you

Channel: The Damage Done Podcast

Views: 99,087

Keywords: aryan brotherhood, the brand, the ab, ab, prison, prison gangs, notorious prison gangs, murder, podcasts, the damage done, damage done, damage done podcast, podcast, prison gang, redemption, spirituality, the aryan brotherhood, prison reform, true crime, true crime stories, true crime podcast, drug addiction, inside the aryan brotherhood, Michael Thompson, mike thompson, mike thompson interview, Michael Thompson ab, wes Watson, Michael Thompson interview, Michael Lynn thompson

Id: ODWMtHlZJ-w

Length: 109min 13sec (6553 seconds)

Published: Sun Apr 11 2021