The 4th "F" (FAWNING) with Dr. Ingrid Clayton

[Music] hello everybody I have the distinct pleasure of  talking with someone today that I met last week   in person for the first time Dr Ingrid Clayton  was written this amazing book believing me   healing from narcissistic abuse and complex  trauma check this book out Dr Clayton yes thank   you so I so much want to talk to you because of a  conversation we had last week about fawning yeah   um the fourth F I'm calling it yes the fourth F  but what I want to do I never want to assume my   audience knows everything about everything  can you just fill us in a little bit about   you know who you are how you came to the  understanding you have now just a little   bit about what you went through and how it took  you a while to figure it out just a little while   just a little while uh yes well thank you so  much for having me for this conversation I'm   excited about it uh so yes Dr Ingrid Clayton  I'm a clinical psychologist and I've been in   private practice forever somewhere along the way  I became a trauma therapist even I specialized in   trauma but I didn't have trauma mark my trauma  I wouldn't even call it trauma or I would call   it trauma in like a colloquial like everybody has  trauma kind of sense but I was deeply minimizing   um comparing as though there's like this trauma  measuring stick and um I didn't comprehend   not only that I had experienced pervasive  developmental trauma which we now call complex   trauma complex trauma is relational trauma ongoing  trauma developmental trauma and I could not own   my own experience with trauma I now know  for several reasons despite my education   despite my training and Trauma for one it was  childhood trauma and often in childhood trauma   you know a kid is dependent on their caregivers  the caregivers are God and we are very quick to   internalize the problems in a family system as  our own so they couldn't be that bad because I   needed them to survive so that's a very common um  survival skill in childhood for trauma survivors   but beyond that I now know my trauma was  narcissistic abuse by my stepfather which was   um steeped in decades of gaslighting where  I was literally told no I'm not the problem   you're the problem right I was the scapegoat and  so even though I always knew that my family was   dysfunctional I knew that they were alcoholic  there was certain language that I could give   um I never understood or knew the language of  narcissism which would have Lent which would have   given me all these other terms like gaslighting  and emotional abuse and manipulation and things   um so what happened is I'm I'm sort of well  into my career and working with with other   trauma survivors and my stepdad uh died and  when he died I had a feeling of being more   free and safe than I ever recall feeling and you  know he was still married to my mom up until the   day that he died so he was in my life but I'd  also kept quite a bit of distance so it wasn't   like there was ongoing daily abuse but what I felt  was as though he had been living in my very cells   I left home at 17. I'm not 17 anymore right  and um I had carried this thing with it was   just it was a part of me and I had internalized  everything that I experienced with him to such   a degree that I couldn't sort of see where  I ended and where that began until he died   and it was maybe nine months later I you know  it was around the time of the metoo movement   and Harvey Weinstein and and I was driving  along I dropped my son off at preschool and   I'm listening to NPR and I hear there's a tape  there's a Harvey Weinstein tape that's been you   know revealed but they weren't going to play it  so I pulled over not far from here uh heading   towards Larchmont Boulevard and I found the  tape on my phone and I listened and my whole   body it was I mean it was a complete flashback  to my childhood Harvey's voice the contempt the   way that he was the victim don't do this  to me I was like this this is my stepdad   and I could see Harvey as a narcissist and so  suddenly it was putting things in context in a way   honestly all my training even on narcissism it  just didn't compute for some reason it was like   that you know my stepdad was just this [ __ ] who  walked around our house in his underwear you know   what I mean it was like I didn't I couldn't  see it clearly because it was my own story   and then after I heard that tape I was  driving along and it was like these lines   of a poem started to drop into my Consciousness  and they felt so important and like if I didn't   capture it right now it I won't remember and  I wanted to so I'd never done this before I   grabbed my phone again as I'm driving and I just  started dictating the lines as they were coming   and I got to my office later and I read it  back and I was like this this is important   I don't know what this is but it's important and  shortly after that more things started coming but   they weren't lines of a poem it was like these  fully intact essays not only from my childhood   but you know dysfunctional relationships  of my adulthood all kinds of things um it was like I was possessed  with this need to articulate   what had happened and I I still didn't know why   and I was in this process really of writing  down all these stories for almost three years when finally enough material was on  the page and so now it's I have enough   distance from it right it's not in me it's  sort of this thing that I can get a little   um well distance from and and suddenly I could  see it from a trauma therapist's perspective   and not only could I see that it was  narcissism and narcissistic abuse   but that I have complex PTSD and I didn't know  I talk about this stuff every day in my practice   and I didn't know and so I thought if I had all  this information and all of this terminology and   trauma therapies and resources and I still didn't  know how many people are walking around with   similar experiences not knowing that what they  experienced is trauma and if it's trauma and you   can use that language suddenly you have access  to all of these other things related to trauma   like the trauma responses fight flight freeze  and fawn which we're going to talk about today   trauma bonding trauma reenactment emotional  flashbacks suddenly I made sense to myself   in a way that Decades of striving and trying to  figure it out and sitting on therapist couches   and getting several degrees in Psychology like I  wasn't um complacent I wasn't just numb to I knew   something was wrong I it was sober for decades I  got clean and sober I went to Al-Anon like I did   all the things the spiritual Retreats like maybe  if I pray harder and meditate long enough and go   up to the Mountaintop that's going to fix it and  nothing ever did and so when you try that hard to overcome yourself and it still doesn't work I  must really be [ __ ] up I must really be [ __ ]   up because not only did I come from this  place that that I knew was just I knew it   was dysfunctional and that's never going to be  me and very judgmental about it I'm recreating   the chaos in my own life I can't find a healthy  relationship to save my life and I'm like what   what is wrong with me I I have this head full  of information in some ways and it's just never   moving down into my body which again the lens  and language of trauma lets me know because   they speak a different language the head and the  body what I learned and the blueprint that sort of   became my way of being in the world never  touched into what I think I know about a thing   or my opinions about it my body  was just orienting to safety   and finding safety in the way that that it always  had which I now know was a chronic presentation of   a trauma response so I finished the book the book  is believing me I I am a clinical psychologist but   the book is really just my story because that  was the other thing I had all these terms at my   disposal I just didn't think they applied to me  so I felt like Not only was it the way that the   book came was just in story form My Own Story um  but I felt like maybe that's the way in for people   to see themselves and of course all the while  I'm thinking my story is so unique and people   are really going to say that's not really trauma  right I'm like wrestling with all of this and   um what's ended up happening is I'm just being  flooded with messages saying you're telling my   story and not only are you telling my story in  the feelings and in the generalizable sort of   quality of dysfunctional childhood experiences  and and what that did to us as adults but even   the specifics I'm blown away at how  many people share the specific stories   um of narcissistic abuse it's like it's the same  Playbook just over and over and over and over and   so that's just been it's been amazing to feel  like the book and whatever I'm doing on social   media is giving a voice to people that similar to  me that didn't have a voice around these things   but it's also expanding my own that this this  book is my healing I'm not approaching it from   yes I'm Dr Ingrid Clayton I'd like to speak to  you today right it's like no it's like this is   what I have to offer is how these things have and  continue to live and breathe in me question I want   to ask you is is is I guess it's more for the  audience because a lot of people say trauma but   that's if I got hit that's if I got beaten up yes  that's if this happened and a lot of people may   not have had that experience but feel super [ __ ]  up yep so can you talk just a little bit about   that because in your case I don't think that you  were physically abused that much in fact that was   the literal message that I received because I had  or at 16 I had organized an intervention through   the help of a school counselor who said Ingrid you  know the things that you're telling me that are   going on at home I'm a mandated reporter I have  to bring in Social Services and so that's what we   did at my little high school in Aspen Colorado um  these two social workers showed up and I called my   mom and said mom I need you to come to the school  and don't tell your husband about it and I could   hear her tone like what are you talking about  what's going on and anyway long story short is um   there was no physical abuse of me I knew that my  mom would have bruises but I never saw him hit her   and there was no sexual abuse there was no overt  sexual abuse but the language that I have now   that I didn't have then was that my stepdad  was grooming me to be his girlfriend and this   was the environment that I grew up in and so it  would move from giving me the silent treatment   and icing me out so I had my biological brother  and my stepbrother we lived in the same house   and my stepdad would come out in the morning  good morning boys how are you sleep well you   know I'm very sort of like you exist you exist to  me I'm going to give you this attention and I'd   be sitting right there and there was just nothing  for me right he would drive us to school we lived   way in the mountains it was a 45 minute commute  every day and he'd be carrying on conversations   with my brothers it was like I didn't exist  until I finally got out of the minivan and I   would leave and I viscerally remember the feeling  I can feel it right now it's like the heat of his   hatred was on my back as I walked to school  and so we would move from the silent treatment   but then it would flip suddenly I was in  his good graces and he was interested in   me but it always had this feeling like I knew  it wasn't really appropriate attention I knew   that there was something there that didn't feel  right but he was never really obvious about it   and two things I knew about his past one is that  he abducted his own son when he was four years   old and he took him away to Florida for almost  three years and lived under an assumed name so   he had this like Abduction path that he talked  about really freely as though he was some hero   like saving his son saving him from what nothing  in fact um so I knew that he had this piece of his   history and I knew that he married his second wife  because my mom was wife number three when she was   very young but it was sort of portrayed as like  this young love there was an age difference but   um that was all I knew but these  details always felt important to me   and um one day he shows up after a long  time of the silent treatment and says   shows up in my bedroom one night while my mom is  out of town of course and my mom is never out of   town but her dad was dying she was out of the way  essentially and he shows up and says hey how'd you   like to go to Las Vegas and I'm like what are  you talking about well you're a singer I mean   I imagine you know that you'd like to see real  shows and real entertainers and how it's done   and I'm like well yeah sure one day I'd like to go  to Las Vegas and he said pack a bag let's go this   weekend I'm like what and he said you can't tell  the boys you know so this is happening so fast and   again it's moving from where I don't exist which  is so painful right because the other memory that   I have of leaving that minivan is walking into  school and wanting more than anything to feel like   a normal kid and just go connect with my friends  before school starts but instead I have to kind of   sneak into the locker room downstairs where no one  is so I can just ball my eyes out because it's so   painful not existing was so painful right so the  silent treatment is abuse like it just I didn't   even have the language for the silent treatment  I'm like why does he pretend like I don't exist   on one hand it feels sort of innocuous it's  like oh he's not really paying attention to   me no I literally didn't exist in my own home it  was brutal and so moving from that into getting   attention it's almost like I mean again I  can feel these things in my body now this   was decades ago it's like I'm a real life  boy like Pinocchio coming to life it feels   um it does feel like moving from black and white  to full color I'm finally here I exist and you're   giving me attention and you're saying you think  I'm a a good singer and and you want to Champion   that you know my creativity as an artist and  you want to show me these things because you   think I deserve it it's intoxicating so he goes  from basically ignoring you for a long period   of time for years I assume no it was more like  weeks or months it would flip and then suddenly   he gives you this new attention yes when he's  inviting you to Vegas yes yes and the attention   feel s good but the secrecy feels bad and so  I'm trying to kind of poke at it and um I'm   like well you know I don't it doesn't really  feel good to keep it a secret he said listen   um I I was given two tickets so that's of course  a lie I didn't know it then I I was given two   tickets your mom's not here but if you don't want  to go I'll take John so now he's pulling it away   and I'm like well no I don't want you to take  it away um and he just said I don't want them   to be jealous so I told them that I'm going out of  town on business and there are I made arrangements   for them to stay elsewhere and they think you're  staying at your best friend's house this weekend   so he's already told them the lie and it feels  sort of like it's done I don't want him to take   it away because going back to where he literally  despises me feels so terrible so I'm like okay   let's go let's go and you know the longer details  of Vegas and what what that was like um are in the   book but the essence is this story that I carried  with me forever which is it felt like my stepdad was parading me around like a girlfriend he  dressed me up we got it we got to get you some   clothes you got to look more sophisticated you're  underage so you got to hold my hand everywhere we   go you know they could I could get in trouble  they'll kick you out you know this is pre-cell   phones I'm like um so but at the end of the day  you kind of go my stepdad took me to Vegas what's   the big deal what's the big deal and you know  this all happened before social services and   I and I told the whole story and there really was  no meaningful intervention it was like oh you're a   family who probably needs to work on communication  skills and we're gonna send you to some counseling   and the counseling was absurd and it all  made things worse so really what I learned is   um you gotta suck it up uh it's all on you and  maybe you were being a little dramatic I never   fully owned the things they said which was you're  a liar and you're selfish and you made it all up   but pieces of those things based on the fact that  it only made it worse my truth was never validated   he went to the Grave with his lies intact and I  think that was the other piece of why the stories   came and we'll talk about this with fawning but  I lived a life in this chronic fawning response   and when he died there was a part of me that said  I will not let his story be the only story that's   ever told there was this fight response that  was sort of coming back which I think I had   as a kid I organized an intervention with social  services like I had a voice I wasn't so terrified   of conflict right that's a healthy fight response  but that fight response got snuffed out and so the   body finds another way and the other way is to  sort of figure out how to go along and get along   and believe these other narratives that we all  hear about family in particular like families the   most important thing and you know oh she's your  mom or whatever that is and so you just become   this sort of robotic figure that knows how to go  along and get along in this really toxic system   and even if a part of me knew it was toxic the  other part of me just learned that this is this is   safety this is reality um and yeah I even forget  the original question but you have I mean the most   beautiful Segway oh good okay good good because  what I want to talk about is you're describing   a um you're describing a family situation and I  I've we had this discussion I think maybe a month   ago and then probably last week again is that part  of what I'm trying to do is is help people see   that the these patterns of abuse at different  scales yeah so yes they happen romantically   but they happen in the family they happen in  churches in corporations in political parties   Etc and so that the way you just described the  dynamic in your family my thought was it's just   like a cult it's exactly the same as a culture  yes yes tell me I want to hear how it matters   the they're these things that go on that if you  had that full sense of yourself and you weren't   completely traumatized you might stand up and  say this shit's [ __ ] up yeah stop but that's   not what you do and the reason I wanted to talk  to you so much about the the fourth f is because   myself and many other people that have escaped  you know these kinds of situations whether they   be Cults or you know people have escaped abusive  relationships or marriages or whatever one of   the questions they get asked is well why didn't  you just leave yep you know and why did you put   up with it and why did you kiss his ass yeah why  did you praise him you know people say to me for   instance well why did you say good things about  Keith Renee you know did you did you believe them   and and and I would feel stuck and go well yes  and no yeah but I sort of I couldn't articulate   it first I can articulate more now but at first  I I couldn't articulate that it was too dangerous   to create a problem that's right and so the the  the the the the part of me that had the ability to   judge these things well was completely suppressed  that's right so the conversation we had last week   was so amazing and I'm not trying to recreate it  but I want to I want to bring it up again because   I didn't really understand until you know I got  out of my cult you know I understood fight or   flight yeah understood that very well Right freeze  I sort of knew about but then I heard about this   fawning thing yeah and that really blew me away  yeah because to me it began to explain like trauma   binding explained certain things um betrayal  blindness explains certain things but fawning   was so interesting because it helped me make sense  of what had been going on for me yes for so long   um and why I had such difficulty standing up  against certain things that that that now I   can say that was really [ __ ] up yep but I  couldn't yes and it's not like oh you know I   had a choice to do it and to stand up or not  stand up right it wasn't even a choice no it   wasn't even a choice so what I'd love you to  do because you know you're the clinician not   me is is is sort of explain the four F's and  then I want to just get into that that fourth   one just explain you know what they are and how  they're framed and why they're so useful yeah okay   so the four F's and there are others beyond the  four F's by the way but uh the the biggies that   we talk about are the fight flight freeze and fawn  and these are trauma responses they are instincts   they are not conscious choices and so if you  look at sort of the animal kingdom it's easy   to see that if an animal is in the wild and it's  like you know serving The Horizon and it senses   danger you don't want that animal to go up to the  what what we have the prefrontal cortex and really   pause and think about it and Ponder like hmm right  there instincts I either gotta get out of here   I gotta be ready to fight I'm gonna play dead  right um and so we've talked about those three   for a long time and there's a lot of literature to  support you know what's happening physiologically   um that in fact our conscious rational brain  does literally go offline all systems that are   not in service of survival including  digestion and things they just stop   and you go into this survival mode so fawning was  coined by Pete Walker and he's a psychotherapist   he coined the term about 10 years ago now in  like 2013. and he was working with relational   trauma right so as a species human beings we are  relational we are one of the few species that our   children can't really live independently until 18  and Beyond right like a fourth of their lives so   um we are by Nature relational beings and so  complex trauma is a relational trauma it's not   like I'm going to be eaten I'm going to be beaten  it's um I don't get to exist as a whole person I'm   not allowed to have a voice I'm bad and I'm  wrong like it has so many different shades   of internal experience and so Pete Walker was  working with this population and he was like there   is something here that he saw over and over and  he also is a Survivor so it was also through you   know run through his personal experience there is  something here that is not being talked about and   you know as he tells it I think he was watching  like a National Geographic show or something and   he saw like a wolf and uh an outlier wolf and then  there was a pack of others and he thought there   was about to be a fight or something and instead  he saw this wolf like I need to I need to befriend   this this pack of wolves and he thought oh that's  so interesting and at the same time he was walking   across his living room and he stubbed his toe  on the couch and he apologized to the couch   oh so sorry you know and it was almost like  this combination of things that he was like this   this thing where I sort of ceased to exist  I prioritize you over me I abandon myself in   service of other even if the other is a couch in  this case but in the case of the wolf it was like   um needing to kind of mirror and merge  in order to fit in and survive and so   he I think you know trying to stay consistent with  the F's he he thought of fawning and um what else   do I want to say about this because there's a lot  of different ways I can go by the way yeah I did   not I did not know this thing about the Wolves oh  yeah yeah you know that this is what what where he   understood it from yes where he understood it from  and so you know there are other researched trauma   responses like tend and befriend for instance but  if you look at that it's really talking more about   uh the way that we sort of connect with community  in order to stay safe fawning is different because   it's not a community that's banding together your  community is actually the perpetrator in fawning   the community is not safe and it creates a  very different internal experience and so   when I heard the term like I could really honestly  weep if I really let myself think about it because   I'm not kidding when I I can't tell you how many  therapist couches I sat on wanting to understand   this part in me that what happened when I went  from black and white to full vibrant color there   was this part of me that felt like I'm going to do  whatever I have to do to stay in his good graces   and the language that I used at the time what it  felt like in my body even though I was a virgin   I knew that I part of the maybe power  that I had was that he was sexualizing me   my stepdad and I said maybe to  my friends certainly to myself   I feel like he's pimping me out for his  pleasure and that I am prostituting myself and so you know when you put fawning  even in the context of a trauma Bond   one thing that I think goes missing  that people don't talk about enough   if I was in this sort of Perpetual trauma Bond it  wasn't just that I was being abused which I was   there were times in that experience that  I felt powerful it feels powerful it feels   intoxicating when in this case my stepdad The  Narcissist kind of finally shines his light   on me because I'm that special and I get in  touch with the things that allow me to mirror   and merge his desires and help me feel that  special there's sort of nothing else like it there's nothing else like it is  it is it intoxicating because   it's compared to the danger yes I think  that's a piece of it right so if whenever   I talk about trauma bonding and I go it's it  really does feel like this it's like when you   hit the jackpot right it's it feels incredible  when you've hit the jackpot but part of it is   in contrast it's the contrast to what you're  getting the rest of the time that makes the   highs feel that high I don't think that's the  whole picture though um it is just the contrast   because even as I talk about it now  there's something that lights up in me   that felt um it felt important and now that  I can see fawning through the lens of trauma   I definitely know that it was about survival  but that's not how it felt um it felt like I   was almost like a sorcerer or like playing with  fire but in a way that there were times I felt   like I could actually manage it and then it would  always flip it would always flip I couldn't sort   of hold it long enough and there's also just  some magical thinking there too about like   I have more control I have more agency I think  that's a piece of the intoxication too it's like   um but what ended up happening is my sense of  agency and power um became fused and this is what   often happens in fawning I found safety and I put  safety in sort of air quotes right because it was   as safe as I could be in a very unsafe situation  and yet my body found safety in being exploited so what did I seek out time and time again long  after I left home relationships that exploited me   so that I could feel that feeling that internal  feeling like here's my sense of safety here's   my sense of power oh you're exploiting me I must  have something to offer it was like the only way   that I could get in touch with the fact that I had  something to offer was in this Dynamic that's what   in in those circumstances you felt like you  had value yes that was my value and my value   was in large part reduced to my sexuality and  again this all happened when I didn't even know   what my sexuality was but once I inhabited myself  as a woman it felt like it just was gasoline on a   fire and so how many bosses and colleagues and  largely older men inappropriate men married men   I'd find myself in this Dynamic over and over  and over where I'm like why are they pursuing me   I I really this was the question I asked on many  therapist couches do I have a sandwich board that   says I'm looking for a corrective experience right  it's like why why why why now I know that it's a   combination of these things I was in a chronic  fawning response right who do you need me to be   oh oh you might be attracted to  me I better be attractive to you   and it would start to grow but I always felt  like but I'm never gonna be with that person   right so I felt like their particulars their  age their marriage whatever the thing was   was the boundary and yet they would try to cross  it every single time and I would be shocked   every single time I was like what's happening  here what's happening here um so fawning LED   for me to the way that I reenacted my trauma  because safety is found in being exploited or   with unavailable Partners right it was sort of  different threads that that ignited that thing   in me um and led to this Perpetual experience  of being in trauma bonds some that I never left   from my family of origin and the new ones that  I created right so this is the stew that I was   cooked in that I was swimming in it's it's the  only thing I knew and even though I didn't want it to go to that question of like well why didn't  you just leave leave what Leave myself like I'm   bringing myself to therapy I'm looking at things  that I can do to better myself I'm I'm meditating   I'm I'm I'm doing all of the prescriptive things  but it literally wasn't until I could see myself   as a trauma Survivor as a relational  trauma Survivor and listen   complex PTSD it's not in the DSM the diagnostic  manual in the U.S right we are still debating   these things fawning so here's what I was  saying to you when I got here today that   I had these sort of New Revelations related to  fawning how they're playing out in my life now   um not only is cptst cptsd not in our DSM  it's in the world Health organization's   um uh icd-11 their their manual so we kind of  have the language like oh this is a thing but the   powers that be have not really established it as a  thing and when I was looking at fawning recently I   was trying to write something for psychology  today and I kept being unable to write it I   couldn't find my voice around it and I realized  only yesterday after months of going why aren't I   writing this thing I literally called Pete Walker  who coined the term I'm reaching out to Dr Stephen   porges of polyvagal theory really wanting to know  how does polyvagal theory see the fawning response   like Pete how did you why did you coin a new term  Why didn't it resonate with these other terms like   um basically I'm looking to anything out there  to validate it as this real thing because I was   starting to get a little pushback from people  like well Ingrid is it really a trauma response   and how is it a trauma response like tell me  what's physiologically going on and suddenly   I was like oh no maybe it's not a thing  maybe and so I see only just 30 seconds ago   that I was doing the thing again I was  abandoning myself and what is decades   of personal experience that not only helped  me Define but finally start to heal this thing   and seeing it in my own clients right but I  was going but someone else's voice matters   more than my safety is found outside of me  what if somebody gets mad at what what if   they disagree and suddenly I'm so discombobulated  that I can't even sit down to write this thing so I was fawning as I was trying to write a piece   on fawning but again I didn't even know that it  just felt like an anxiety was rising in me and I   was like getting farther and farther away from  what felt true looking for the answer out here   and I couldn't find it and then I'd get more  frustrated and then it made me believe even   more that my personal experience was wrong  because I couldn't see it I couldn't see   it validated in this way that I felt like  some people were wanting it to be validated   and I when I finally saw that I could go my voice matters and this is the  antidote to fawning my voice matters   my experience matters right so Pete Walker would  say that fawning and fight are on opposite ends   of the same Spectrum so when I say that the fight  got really snuffed out of me it makes sense that I   went to fawning okay well I guess I just have  to be this in order to exist in this family   but coming out of it has meant I can't keep privileging my mom's wounds over  mine I can't keep acting as though it's okay that   my stepdad did what he did and not own the severe  consequences that it's had in my life because the   truth is there's the stories of what happened  to me as a kid and they're [ __ ] up they are   but they pale in comparison to the  symptoms that I've been living with   for decades the way so there's traumatic events  the events are in childhood but that's not trauma   10 people can experience the same event some  of them might just be like it was a Tuesday   their body does not get overwhelmed their  nervous system processes it moves through   whatever other people experience the same  event it overwhelms their nervous system   it gets stuck in time it creates a meaning  and a belief system that becomes so fixed   and it never resolves it feels like capital T  truth this is unsafe this thing is unsafe oh   here's more evidence the brain starts collecting  more and more evidence so here it's happening   again it's happening again now I'm recreating  it right because I'm in this trauma reenactment   so there's traumatic events and then there's  trauma trauma is what happens inside of us in   the face of a traumatic event which also just  blows this notion of like a trauma measuring   stick out of the water it just doesn't matter you  know what I wished as a kid that I had bruises I wished it was more obvious there was a  time when my brother my younger brother   uh he told some crazy lie to the teachers at  school my parents make me sleep outside in   the freezing cold Colorado winter in the empty  hot tub and the the cover of the hot tub is my   only blanket and you know what I think now  I go that was genius he was trying to come   up with a story that made sense for what he  was feeling more than the story that we were   living our parents were business owners in town  right we had a lovely house I always got new   school clothes all of these things driving us to  school every morning um none of that like normal   or whatever external stuff never fit with what  was happening behind closed doors and how it was   eroding it was infecting it was like a parasite  living in each of us in this different way   and the toll that that took so that's  the trauma because it took root in   me you know a big feature of complex  trauma is it distorts your sense of self Not only was I not a good student in high  school because I was too busy surviving   what was happening at home I was sort of told like  you're you're not you're not smart like I wasn't   no one was championing my uh growth and being  curious like what are you interested in and   what are you learning at school today I really  just thought I was dumb my nickname was dingy   Ingy everyone just called me ding right and so  I just kind of took that on like yeah you know   I have Smart friends and I'm glad that they're so  smart but that's not me I can sing you know that's   my thing and so this is the self-gas lighting  that we start to do when you're told over and   over you're selfish you're the problem you're  not very smart you're not putting the pieces   together there's a part of me that believed it  and I was self-gaslighting maybe it wasn't that   bad like these are terms of so maybe it wasn't  that bad it wasn't that really big of a deal   and it keeps these things  intact I have so many questions just to go back to like the way of describing  fawning yeah because I was thinking about   you know I had a stepfather for a few years when  I was very young who was it was really abusive   and torturous and what I did I don't remember so  well my mom tells me what I did was I just fought   back all the time and it got worse yeah and it got  worse yeah and it got very torturous and this guy   was just he was a mean [ __ ] to me and somewhere  along the line I I wonder if because I started   being very afraid of of violence  and of Violent Men and I would find   that sometimes with if it felt very dangerous I  would be super nice yes and I would be like trying   to get them to like me and so I was thinking  about fawning because part of it feels like if   you if there's physical danger I want the person  to like me because I'm not a fighter right and I   will get pummeled yep so I gotta get them to like  me I gotta be smart funny something yes and then   so there's the the part of like I don't want to  get hurt but then there's the part of sometimes   I want to be liked yes so maybe they're not  dangerous physically yeah but I want to be   liked and so I will try and carry favor and then  as you were talking I was thinking but that's   also a kind of danger like it feels like this  danger of not being liked of being Thrust out   of the tribe so just to just to recap so I really  understand and really get it yeah fawning is this   is a way to feel safe yeah whether it's physical  emotional whatever yeah to feel safe in the face   of something that feels dangerous yes yeah yeah I  mean all trauma responses are about finding safety   about finding safety in the body and it's just  the particular mechanism that it that it takes and   um what we know really about all the trauma  responses okay so trauma responses aren't a   bad thing like we're very grateful for the for the  trauma response it helps us literally survive okay   and yes initially we can happen upon particular  responses in the face of danger but what happens   for some and what happened for me the tronic the  trauma response starts to become personality and   you really genuinely think that it is and so  there are aspects of funding altruism and being   of service and caretaking like these aren't bad  things right they're they're very useful lovely   things in certain contexts but when you feel like  you can only do those things in order to be liked   to be in relationship right it's this it becomes  this chronic codependency and you and I talked   about this a little bit that I never saw myself  in codependency and I think there's a couple   reasons for that one is that it comes out of the  chemical dependency world and I identified more   on the addict side right and addicts are like  codependents right so it was so stigmatized I   couldn't really own it if I was going to own the  sort of addict part of me um but I also I was just   like I don't you know it felt like it was like  almost talked about like a choice of like come on   just get some self-esteem you know and it just was  like look like I just couldn't see myself in it   but fawning actually it's like the heart beat  of codependency and when I realized these things   aren't a choice these aren't conscious things  that I'm doing they were reflexive instincts   you know I never said oh I'd like to sort of uh  prostitute myself in service of my stepdad's you   know whatever uh no one would choose that no one  would choose that but it's what worked and the   body is clocking that ah that works look how  effective it is over here look how effective   it is and to your point it's still dangerous  in the sense that it requires self-abandonment that's the biggest difference so if I'm being  of service because it's a choice because I'm   holding on to myself and I feel like I want  to be of service I want to give in this way I   I mean I think that's amazing I hope there are  parts of me that will always be oriented like   that but let's be honest I in part became  a psychologist out of my fawning response   I exist for how I serve you right it's like this  is my value this is my how can I be helpful to you   the way that I can merge and mirror even my hyper  vigilance my childhood sort of hyper vigilance   of like monitoring micro movements and sort of  intuitively knowing what they mean it's all led   to what has you know been a lovely career in some  ways and I'm grateful for it and there's a reason   that I wrote a memoir because I need more me  in my own life again the antidote to fawning   is like I cannot just be here in service of  the other whoever the other is now I need   there to be more me and all of me in my life  not just the shinier you know whatever uh more   whatever aspects of myself um which is also  why when I got on Instagram and I found this   way to sort of be very silly or irreverent  and there was this part of me that was like   Ingrid you can't do that you can't do that as a  psychologist you're gonna you're gonna tank your   career and this other part of me this part of me  that is genuinely healing from fawning is like   I'm gonna be me and I'm gonna be all of me in one  place I'm going to be a clinician I'm going to be   a Survivor I'm going to be someone who has some  answers and is still trying to figure out a lot of   others and I'm gonna do it with a sense of humor  that at least makes me laugh a lot of the time   and it may not be for everyone but it's been so  helpful for me and that is the new measuring step   stick not how will it just be helpful for other  and and I struggled with that in the writing   because there was a part of me that was like I  think this could be so helpful for other people   but I was like but is it gonna be helpful for me  and I have to keep coming back to that and and I   have to be very conscious about that like what  are my intentions and how is this in service of   like capital S South and that's not selfish and  and I was always told that it was and so it's also   flipping that idea that it's not selfish right  in fact it's selfish to to pretend that oh I'm   interested in you and yes I completely understand  that is selfish because it's a lie and again   there's no shame in this it's not shaming um it's  the other I think gift of understanding trauma is   this is just this is just how we're wired my body did exactly what it was designed to do to  survive the circumstance that it was in we learned   through experience not just an intellectual  knowing we learned through experience so my body   went out and did exactly what it learned and these  are the kind of people that you know how to hang   out with and these are the environments and all  the rest of it and I did continually what I did   to survive my childhood and now I go oh so there's  no shame and I go it doesn't have to be this way it really doesn't this is the thing I wanted  to to bring up again is um I had such a bad reaction to fawning when I first  heard it and and I think the reason is because   I felt like oh it sounds so weak and so pathetic  and you know I really did not like the term until   I really understood that like it's because of that  mechanism that I probably survived a whole bunch   of stuff that's right so like thank you yeah um  so it really helped reframe that and why this is   such an obsession there was something else I was  thinking as you were talking about hyper vigilance   I suddenly realized I wonder sometimes if people  think maybe that they're hyper empathic oh they   do actually just hypervised all the time yeah  yes yeah they this language of empath and highly   sensitive I think it's also been sort of co-opted  in a very spiritual way and you know that's more   palatable than going I'm a trauma Survivor  right I I walked on eggshells and so I had   to learn how to survey the lay of the land and  know what was coming before it was coming to   save my ass right like um so but I do see the  tides turning at people going oh that's maybe   what that is you know yeah yeah because no a lot  of people walk around saying I'm a hyper empath   and I'm like I just can't say it about myself no  me neither do I think that I'm empathic I think so   yeah but like I would never call myself some you  know hype or whatever yeah yeah um so this other   thing as you were talking about the the goodies  let me just make sure as you were talking about   the goodies that you got from fawning yeah at  first I was like I'm not really relating but I   understand intellectually the structure of what  you're saying and then I S as you were talking I   sort of tapped in and I was like oh [ __ ]  no I do know exactly what this is like so   throughout my life this thing of being of  service yeah putting somebody else first   yeah gave me a really good feeling but now I  take it further yeah also thinking of myself   as a piece of [ __ ] and valueless also gave me  a very good feeling like I'm I'm [ __ ] yes like   I'm nothing like I would feel really weirdly  comforted by that thought and the feeling   you know of I'm nothing let me do everything for  you I mean there's so many times in my life when   you know in I would help other people make money  but I I wasn't I wasn't worthy of that right you   know or somebody needed something and I would like  do everything for them but I wouldn't I couldn't   do that for me right and so the retraining has  been so interesting and I think in part of the   the retraining it's not even retraining part  of the need that I'm feeling to to establish   a more profound and solid sense of self that's not  based on you know just a trauma response yeah yeah   I find myself pushing up against these thoughts  and so this is the thing I really wanted to to   get to and I I definitely want to spend time in  in fawning but we had breakfast last last week   and I don't remember if you said  this or if I asked you the question   but I actually know I spoke to Dr Romney after  this and I asked her this question and I said   do you think it's possible I was talking to  Dr Clayton do you think it's possible that   all this altruism that I've been doing isn't is  a long-term decades-long fawning response and   without a beat she said yes like [ __ ] oh [ __ ]  I know because we were talking about it yeah so   I have had this thing I have to make the  world better that's right and you know yes   I saw bad [ __ ] in South Africa I knew  it was wrong thank goodness I saw a lot   a lot of those things because I had a way to  measure this that's not good what's good but   what would happen is I would I've been on  this mission to the detriment of myself   yes it's like well I'm gonna go make this  movie and like I don't need much money   for I'm just gonna go make it man it's been  years making stuff that producing enormous   amounts of value yeah but like uh you know not  making much or making nothing sometimes right   and I've been trying to figure out okay so if I  didn't need to quote unquote save the world yeah   would I want to make things better and so that's  been on my mind a lot in the last few weeks and   I've found that I I still would want things to be  better but this compulsion of I have to I have to   I have to and it's very highlighted right now  because I get you know since the vow season one   and season two I get a lot of messages from people  and they have a cult that needs to get taken down   or they have an abusive relationship that needs  to be exposed or something and at first I was like   what can I do how can I do and then eventually  I was like I I don't have the life force yeah   to do this and that's when I really started  to think like I feel bad that I'm not jumping   at every single need somebody has and then I start  to feel that's [ __ ] up like where am I in this   oh yes yes so now I'm trying to navigate this like  well what if I did things entirely on my own terms   I'm not talking about being an [ __ ] and you know  I don't care about entirely in my own terms where   if I do this thing it's because I feel fulfilled  and I feel full in it that's right as opposed to   there's something fundamentally wrong with me and  I'm going to reenact that thing again and again   and again because maybe at the end of this I'll  finally feel like I have value that's right so   two things one is when you talk about the bad  feeling that comes when we don't help or you   know it can present like guilt or maybe I'm being  selfish that's when I go oh we're moving in the   right direction and that part of our work is to  tolerate those bad feelings and recognize that   they are just feelings they are not statements  of us having lack or deficit in that way but the   other thing that I actually think that you're  talking about which we spoke a little bit about   um is no one's like a pure Fawn response or right  like I'm an equal opportunity drama responder you   know a little little of this little of that uh  depending on the situation but the two biggies   that I have identified with are the fawning  and flight and so flight isn't just run from   the situation it's staying in perpetual motion  it's perfectionism it's achievement it's sort   of out running this internal thing that says  I'm not good enough oh my gosh maybe if I do   something big enough in the world and I know for  me anytime and it's and it feels like a compulsion   100 anytime I feel that in me it doesn't  matter what I've attached it to it's like   maybe it was graduate school or can't just  be a masters it's got to be a PhD now I'm   licensed maybe it's private practice maybe  it's writing oh it's got to be about having   a family whatever the thing was that I attached  to when I get this thing then it's gonna be okay   it satiates me for maybe half a second if that  because and this is interesting we think that   the flight response is about the impact maybe  it's an altruistic impact saving the world   it's not actually the essence of the trauma  response the essence is in the striving   and that's why it can jump from this to that to  this so maybe it's my cult it's your cult it's you   know whatever it's in the striving for the thing  that feels like I'm finally going to get somewhere   but we don't until we stop and slow down and  get curious about what's happening in our bodies even just saying that I take a spontaneous  deep breath probably the first one I've taken   in this whole conversation just being  curious about what's happening in here   brings me deeper into myself which is  actually the thing that I've always wanted the thing we've always been looking for yes  in all the wrong places that's right yeah rice I'm also having this moment of  like huh I know so I never I never saw   I never saw productivity and compulsive  productivity as part of flight yeah and   so different people might say it differently that  does come out ocker's work too but again it just   that framework has made so much sense to me um  and because I'm not a wild animal like about to be   attacked I'm living in my life where it feels like  there is this out running this thing that I need   to sort of overcome or work out in some way that's  the compulsion and that it's been very directed in   this external sort of validation or yeah some idea  of what I think is going to happen um and it's I'm of two minds about it um listen I'm grateful  that I ended up working with other people and the   gifts that that has given me it's beyond measure  I'm grateful for some of the things that I've   that I have striven for that I've achieved and  the information that I've gained or whatever   um and I'm sad that it came out of this thing  that was trying to resolve that couldn't be   resolved like um I wish I was a little more my  whole full self was a little more in the driver's   seat as I did some of those things than I have  been but I'm working on that now and I feel the   I feel the difference I mean it's huge  yeah even if it looks on the outside like   I'm doing some of the same things the way it  feels differently in my body is such a gift so a lot of what we're doing it's weird because  I'm about to say words that I that we were taught   in the cult as well but that wasn't what we were  doing yeah a lot of what the journey feels like   is we're constantly misidentifying the truest  version of ourself with everything else yeah   and that's why we're never happy because it never  lasts and it never works yeah and the only thing   that really seems to work for me is those moments  when I'm very still and it feels like I'm building   or fortifying a relationship with myself yes  that feels truly wonderful but I notice that   because it's not a well-worn pattern yet there's  all these objections to that full state of course   yeah and I would say for me personally it  doesn't always feel so wonderful in fact   it often feels like [ __ ] it feels like  Terror right because if I'm not doing the   thing that always kept me safe I'm just feeling  the triggers I'm feeling the prickliness of my   actual world and I'm not doing the things that  always helped me manage it so it feels like I   don't know what I'm doing I don't know who  I am I don't know how to be in relationship   um I'm being mean what's wrong with me and  and and quite frankly when you write a memoir   about childhood trauma some people are going to  have some feelings about it so now like I'm even   getting the a little bit of the pushback of like  no you're still a liar and you're the problem and   all that kind of stuff and and and I go maybe  it's true right like what we have to confront is not for the faint of heart like I think  doing the real trauma work and no matter how   you frame it coming into your true whole self  is some of the bravest hardest most profound   work because it isn't that spiritual by passy  I'm on the Mountaintop kind of thing it's like   I'm in the cellar I mean it's dark in here I'm  [ __ ] cold and freezing and I don't know how   to get out and I'm terrified um that's some  of the stuff that we have to face and I say   without question it is worth it it is worth it  because that is the thing that is allowing me   to find a new sense of safety in my body now  and it's not safety and air quotes it's actual safety and this idea like trauma healing or  however you want to language it is not about   becoming your best self right and that's not  a very good marketing pitch it's like people   want that I wanted that my whole life help me  find my best self how am I gonna do it you know   I was the most compliant give me the answer  I will do it perfectly client and whatever   and the truth is my best self includes all of  these pieces that it really includes my shame the part of me that doesn't know the part of  me that's fumbling the part of me that feels   selfish it's making room for all of these things  that I've been trying to outrun my whole life   yeah it's a bit of a buzz kill when you're  language no no it's so it's so important because I   I did a I did an episode recently about spiritual  bypassing and it's such a concern because I've   been an expert at it oh yeah me too I've you know  made movies that do it basically um but I find   I think the experience that that I've come out  of you know this the coming out of the cult thing   there are certain things that I feel allergic to  like inauthenticity yeah I feel allergic to it now   and also I noticed and I think this is a good  thing when I see myself fawning it doesn't feel   good anymore right it feels like [ __ ] it feels  like [ __ ] and I'm thinking I thought to myself   maybe that's good maybe that's sort of a quote  unquote rewiring that's going on where I'm like   I don't feel good because I feel like I'm now  abandoning myself and and I find that you know   um Dr Romney was talking about this with me the  other day about you know uh one's resistance to   narcissism you know if you're highly resistant to  narcissism you put up with a lot of stuff because   you're so busy you know trying to navigate your  way through it and fawning around their behavior   and so I find that if I'm around somebody who's  very very grandiose my tendency is to you know   Fawn one thousand percent right because like I I'm  trying to like make sure everything's okay because   on some level I must feel a danger but what's  happening now is I'm starting to feel like it   distaste for it yes which I I'm happy about it's  really happy it's incredible I mean from an ifs   internal family systems model they might say it's  like the fawning even is sort of what they would   call a manager that's been I mean it it has been  an effective manager but the managers are tired   they get tired and you see they start to fall away  and then you get access to what they would call   your Exiles these more wounded parts that have  like been tucked away for so long I'm never going   to experience that again the Exiles are the hidden  parts that haven't had much exposure wounds yes   um and so there really is this internal  reorganization happening and I think yeah   some of that um like even discussed for  fawning uh is a piece of that I I want   to go back to something else you said because  I found it interesting I'm trying to remember   the language that you used when you were saying I  didn't really see myself in this aspect of fawning   yeah because you described like a good  feeling with it yes oh yes and I was   like what yeah and then and but then as I  examined and and introspected I was like   oh [ __ ] no I know exactly what that  feels like well it made me want um the my my uh take on it was that you  were sort of You Know The Golden   Child of that organization in a way  and that must be a pretty good feeling   at first it was um see they got me when  I was getting a lot of accolades but you know they got me on my on my you know save  the world thing yes they got me on that that was   the thing they got me on and they got me on you  know we have the way that you haven't been able   to find right and we think you might be smart  enough oh my gosh to get it even hearing this   ignites my response I go this is it yeah this  is it that's that's the thing my whole life   you know I have I was a straight A student for  a while um I studied like you know when I went   to boarding school because I was born in school  for a lot of my life you know we had this like   you know voluntary study semi-voluntary and  compulsory I aced everything so I could do   whatever I wanted yeah because I was like  obsessed with being good at everything and   obsessed with being smart yeah and so you  know when you start to get around people that   are telling you you know we love your mission we  think we can help you with that mission and we   think that you can get this and you know you're  being blown away by a lot of interesting because   look not every single thing in that in that uh  educational model was complete [ __ ] of course   this narcissistic abuse hands down there's always  good stuff in it right yeah I was legitimately   wanting to be a singer I think I had legitimate  talent and my stepdad was speaking some truth   around that right it was like this wasn't all  smoke yeah yeah so yeah but you know it's funny   I wanted to just on the topic but I wanted to just  refer to something so some there's some footage   some of the footage is in The Vow and when I was  um working with the FBI uh shortly before trial   um I found this footage that had been shot behind  the scenes of me taking photographs of Ranieri in   his Library that that Library you know where  all that where he had all the stuff stored   and I watched it with with the FBI watched  everything um and I was dying because he was being   so insulting and I was like laughing and smiling  and I was like I was I was so embarrassed because   I wasn't like [ __ ] you [ __ ] right [ __ ] deck  you right now that's right you piece of [ __ ]   yeah I was laughing yeah he insulted my wife you  know this weird you know weird roundabout way   and I didn't laugh at that but I didn't  say watch it right I didn't say that yeah   and I saw what I saw in this footage that was  eventually used in the trial was just constant   stoic fawning I would call it it wasn't like I  was groveling it was like the stoic fawning right   you know where I wasn't calling him out on things  that were that were not good right he was saying   things it was [ __ ] yes about me you know about  my wife about other people about women in general   you know right and everything in me now the person  I am now if somebody started saying that [ __ ]   to me I'd say you know what shut the [ __ ] up I  know do not [ __ ] do that around me that's right   I have such a hard line now but maybe it's you  know all the [ __ ] I've been through but like I   just don't tolerate it anymore that's right but it  was difficult to see that I bet that it was I mean you know there's somewhere towards the end  of my book where I say if anyone turned to   me today and they said Ingrid I don't believe  you um you're a liar you made the whole thing up   I would react like you're reacting now like  shut the [ __ ] up what are you talking about   I have zero respect for you yeah yeah I  will never let your version of this thing   Trump my own I know who I am right but that  is not where I lived for most of my life yeah   first of all we know historically trauma survivors  are often shamed about their response no matter   what it is and for a long time that was related  to their freeze response why didn't you just   leave well they didn't just leave because perhaps  they were not in their body at all that that is   a function of dissociation and you don't have the  ability to get up you're just you're leaving your   body in order to survive the event that's why  you didn't leave and Association isn't just in   the moment of a sexual assault for instance it's  a state that people often find themselves living   in and so my mom was a good example of this and  I talk about this in the book that one time as   an adult I'm visiting her and I'm three feet away  from her in her kitchen I'm saying mom Mom Mom and   she finally turns to me and said Ingrid my life  is so painful I just have to disappear sometimes   and then the moment was gone and she  kind of snapped back into more of a   fawning presentation actually like  okay we're just gonna get on with   the day and oh Randy's coming in and how  would you like your eggs kind of a thing   um so so that's the freeze response but I think  fawning in some ways can even get more of a bad   rap because there is the appearance of some level  of participation like here you are functioning in   the cult and you have you know this particular  role in your scene in this way and um it's like   what were you what were you thinking you know and  I read something recently um related to fawning   and polyvagal theory that sort of made sense to me  and helped me understand this a little bit more um   and polyvagal theory is just a way to understand  what's happening in the nervous system in the face   of trauma and so if the fight and the flight  response are like your foot on the gas pedal   gonna run get out of there fight back freeze  is like your foot is on the brake fawning is   one foot on each petal and I was like that's it  because there is some level of I'm participating   here I'm showing up in a particular way but  it's with the self-abandonment which you could   also refer to as some level of dissociation I'm  dissociating from this truer deeper sense of self um so I think on the face of it if you  don't have this experience of fawning   you can be like well what were you thinking  like you were clearly participating in there   um yeah my nervous system was doing exactly  what it needed to do to survive that situation   yes and for me when I look back I wasn't there a  lot of that time like I was also dissociated right   of course because when I when I look at some of  the stuff sometimes you know and The Vow is a very   it's a very um it's a deeply vulnerable thing  to just think you know crack your chest open   and show the entire world what's going on it's  not not a lot of fun no but there are certain   parts of the The Vow I'm just thinking I can't  watch this again I can't look at this again yeah   um there is a moment that I wanted to talk  to you about because it's not you never see   it in The Vow but in in April 2017 I am now  talking to a number of women that have been   abused and I now know what's going on not  everything but I now know what's going on   and I also know these are litigious dangerous  [ __ ] that's right and I'm in the middle of   producing an intensive in Los Angeles  in Venice and Nancy Salzman is in town   and there's a few you know celebs and  whatever that are in the Intensive and   I know something dark is going on I don't know  everything but I'm but I go to the Intensive   for a few days and I'm supposed to go and  do these different you know psychological   you know things with everybody yeah that we  all did and first of all I go off book I am I   am not doing any of the techniques that that are  in the book I'm like I'm off book completely I'm   all about this is a conscious Choice conscious  Choice okay I'm trying to help these people find   as best as I can not being a psychologist find  their true self yeah that's all I'm trying to do   but for years before whenever like you  know Nancy Salzman would be coming up to   the thing the whole thing they had us do is  that you had to edify the the person of high   rank and edifying talk about them talk about  their attributes why you like them so much   why you respect them so much it's this  weird like praise thing you have to do   and I never liked it very much even though  I truly believe that it's important to edify   people you respect but I never liked  it because I felt forced horrible   so every time Nancy sells me to come into the  room I would you know I would do this edification   and which was which is basically fawning yeah yeah  but I was so dissociated as well and I had so many   things going on that I sort of just shut  myself off and I just I'm just gonna do   my job that's right I'm just going to perform  but in this particular intensive the day she   arrived it was my job as the highest ranking  person in the room to introduce Nancy Salzman   and now I knew [ __ ] was really dark and it was  the first time I was consciously aware during   the process of edification of like fawning like  suddenly I was no longer dissociated right I was   like fully [ __ ] awake knowing that this was  not good right but I had to pretend everything   was okay wow because at the same time as I'm in  there I'm talking to law enforcement oh my word   there's this weird thing and I have to show  up and now it's conscious fawning yes and so   I I noticed that there is this there is this  part of fawning that that you're not all there   no I mean I hearing you say that I can recall  my moment of conscious fawning after Decades of   living in this sort of this is just how what  you do to kind of get along I'm visiting my   mom and it's after I've been writing the book  for several years because this was through the   pandemic I didn't see her for a long time it's the  first time going back to her house and I'm looking   around and I'm seeing all of my stepdad's things  as though he's still there in it's like a shrine   to him in some way and it's sitting in me in this  awful place that it's it's it's deeply triggering   in a way that I had disconnected from for so long  now I'm owning the truth of the impact and yet I'm   like are we gonna have lasagna for dinner I'm  not saying you're putting me in a bedroom that   is a shrine to the man who abused me I'm saying  what should we do with Henry my son right like   and it was the beginning really of the end because  I saw that my managers were tired and I could not   do this thing like that anymore and I felt my  fight response coming back I wasn't directing   it towards her that still felt too terrifying but  I could feel it and then in safer moments I turned   to my husband and I'd be like can you believe  you know I would give him the real deal so it   was this real just sort of like you're walking  in between worlds and oftentimes in therapy I'll   call moments like this the hallway it's like the  door behind you has closed the one in front of you   hasn't fully opened yet and you're in this period  of transition where maybe one foot there one foot   there and it's so disorienting and confusing  but a really important part of the transition   out yeah that's exactly what it feels like yeah  between two worlds yeah the Consciousness is just   dropping in your body but it's not fully safe  yet and you're you're in the environment and so   you are it's what she becomes autopilot like  we say these trauma responses sort of become   personality you're doing what you've always done  you've done it eight million times just like I   was in relationship with my mom and the way that  I had always been but there was like a this has to   change but I wasn't ready for it to change on that  trip and so I made a conscious Choice I'm just   going to get through this just like I've gotten  through every other time but I left there knowing   that it was never going to be the  same that I couldn't do it anymore   that's really profound the thing  that's so great about our conversation is and I hope people get this out of this is that  all of these things that look like complicity yes   art art it's trauma it's trauma it's trying to  deal with trauma that's right and even you know   I look at even you know there's there's various  you know cult that I'm looking at today and there   are people that are that are um enabling the  leader and now finally I go like oh I get I   get what's going on I get how trapped they feel  that's right you know I get that they feel like   they don't have a way out and they have their  values and the leader are so married together   that they can't even conceive of pulling  away it's too dangerous if it's not even   on their mind I mean that's the thing the  the longer that I've been in this awareness   the harder it is for me to believe that I didn't  know my whole life because it's so obvious now I   go how did my stepdad is a classic narcissist like  it is the writing is on the wall and yet even when   I sent the book to Dr Romney for her endorsement  there was a part of me that thought she was gonna   write back and go oh Ingrid that's so cute you  thought he was a narcissist because I'm still   going maybe it's Me Maybe I'm Wrong maybe I'm  misreading this thing maybe I'm making it all up   up until the wire where I've written the  whole thing and I send it to the expert   on narcissism and at least half of me is going  she's gonna laugh she gave you a glowing review   instead she says it's one of the compelling  Act portrayals of this type of abuse I mean she gave me the biggest gift  in that and I will say the part of me   that was willing to write my story and offer it  up to the expert on narcissistic abuse and say   will you please consider endorsing it I have to  give that part some credit too because she was   terrified and she did it anyway right um but  the other piece I wanted to talk about with   this idea of being complicit and you know  conscious and of course it's so easy and to   see it from the outside like anyone who's read  my book They're not questioning whether or not   that was traumatic and I really thought people  are that was the feedback that at least half   of the feedback I was gonna get was like you  know come on Ingrid like that's that's nothing   you know to my knowledge not one person  is sort of questioning um this thing about   um how aware were we at the time and  the lengths that we were willing to go   to to essentially betray ourselves I do think  that's deeply confusing to people and I think   particularly for some reason when you're talking  about sex and so here you are coming from what   is now being referred to as the sex cult right  and how did all of these women sort you know   they were in long-term relationships with Keith  and all of this and I go you know what because   here's what I found out about my stepdad only  through the writing process because I started   doing research and talking to anyone who would  listen and I called his Ex-Wives and old best   friends and I just looked under every rock  that that possibly could hold some answers   for me because I was trying to validate the truth  like what did actually happen and what I learned   was two really important things my stepdad  had a history of preying on young girls his   second wife was 15 when he married her he tricked  her into going to Mexico just like he tricked me   into going to Las Vegas he married her when  he was down there without her prior consent   and he had been grooming her for months prior  to that in the same exact ways hearing her   story it was like tracing paper over mine and  I realized my stepdad never wanted to rape me   he wanted me to want him he wanted me to fall  in love with him he wanted me to want him back   that was the manipulation so if a fauner is  looking to stay safe by mirroring and merging   I wholeheartedly understand how his second wife  ended up marrying him and having a child with him   I think whatever powers that be that even though I  was fawning and I was sort of like how can I make   this good phase last a little bit longer that  there was this other part of me that was like I   will never give him what he ultimately wants um  but I can see completely how that happens where   if that's the thing that you need to do to stay  safe you absolutely Surrender Your Body it's not   just an internal abandonment in terms of you know  emotional safety you're you're handing yourself   over and I think so many women in particular since  I've been talking about the fawning response I   can't tell you how many people are reaching out  and they're going why have I never heard about   this before this explains so much and even to  think about the seeds of my story in some way   coming out of Harvey Weinstein's it's like the  history of Hollywood even and the producers and   their black books and who were the women that  were going to be willing to do X Y and Z that's   it's all fawning it's all fawning and being preyed  upon as fonners and finding some modicum of safety   in that really unsafe and sexuality holds a lot of  power and so guess what you feel that much safer   by using that and yet so many women  have felt so deeply ashamed my own   history included some of the stories  I share in the book of the positions   that I was in and the things that I  would do these are not of my character I'm so happy you said that because I have people  say to me sometimes about you know the women that   were involved with Ranieri like how could they  they have bad taste I mean it was a schlub he's   ugly and I would say that's not why they had  sex with him that's right but I didn't have the   language to defend them adequately yeah but  I don't believe a single one of these women   was really attracted to him no they were  scared they were scared they were dissociated   and they wanted the promise of whatever  he was promising them so it's all on this   hook you know and coupled with all the other  things we know about this type of abuse isolating   you from any other sane voices and all of the  rest of it and um it's just it's the it's the   stew that that you're living in and it's that  you know the heat gets turned up over time and   so I can see that one day he's taking me to Vegas  but if I had been living in that environment much   longer if I didn't sort of say oh I'm up and out  of here because that was sort of my salvation um   I can see that it would have happened to me like  it happened to so many before me yeah yeah and I   can I can see how it how it happens all the time  but I think the piece that makes me so heartbroken   is that so many people are just holding the shame  of it as though they're all to blame it's this   very victim blaming thing and um it's just not  it's not the whole story and and in a way I go   fawning is genius it is so genius because it  is partially like I'm engaging with the system   that I am in and I'm denying enough of myself  in order to continue functioning like first of   all who could consciously really do that to that  extent that the body just instinctually does I go   I have such reverence for it I think it's  amazing and I don't see it in the same vein   that I did for myself for so long which is  I'm just so broken I am evil what is wrong   with me these are the things that I felt  about myself and I don't know it's amazing   I have gotten so much out of this conversation  let me tell you oh I have a lot to think about   um was there anything anything else you  wanted to share before we closed out thank you I'm just feeling gratitude I'm feeling  gratitude for this conversation and this sort of   uh amazing thing that you and I are coming from  such different worlds and so many ways and yet   the minute that I learned of your story and then  I've had the privilege to get to connect with you   a little bit the connective tissue just sort of  blows my mind and what you're doing to further   this conversation and help educate folks like  flight response or not I know that there's like   a there's a lot of heart in what you're doing  and why you're doing it and I feel personally   gifted by it um you know it's amazing for me  even to get to watch something like The Vow   because there are so many similarities  it's validating of me and my childhood   it's validating of survivors and um this might  be too far afield but Marsha Linehan who's the   founder of dialectical behavioral therapy half  of her model related to borderline personality   disorder and its treatment which in large part  is a relational trauma complex trauma it's not   all of borderline personality but it's a big  piece of it is what she calls this biosocial   model so there's the biological sort of inborn  sensitivity and then there's the social piece   which is the invalidating environment and so  half of the model that she created is about   finding true validation for what you went through  and what it did to you and I think sharing our   stories does that it's so powerful and so you're  sharing your story in all the ways that you are   has meant so much to me and I'm so grateful to  get to continue the conversation thank you and   look I I've listened to a bunch of podcasts  with you oh and it's moved me so much and   like to this understanding of phoning which is  which is pretty new to me still I really hope   I believe it will I really hope that  people will it will help unburden them yes   from a lot of the self-hatred and the shame  that they felt yes because the way you put it   it's like this really natural important if not  essential thing that's right that our body does   that is my greatest hope is to unburden myself  from those things and help others do the same   and it's why I'm sort of running all of these  Concepts through my own nervous system through   my own story to kind of offer it up and go so  here's what happened and here's what I did as   a result and so that people can go that's what I  do that's what I did yes maybe the trauma response   or this idea of trauma or even narcissism  does apply to me in my life and listen I   wouldn't wish that on anyone but if that is their  truth I want people to feel in alignment with who   they actually are and what actually happened so  that they can finally get to the place that I   wanted to get my entire life and just couldn't  get a foothold which is often authentic self   and you're you're doing that so thank you well  said the book by the amazing Dr Ingrid Clayton   is believing me get it read it believing me  healing from narcissistic abuse and complex trauma   thank you very much [Music] [Applause] [Music]

Channel: Mark Vicente

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Id: zKkSYZO3Zyo

Length: 96min 12sec (5772 seconds)

Published: Sun Mar 05 2023