Why Didn’t They Believe Me with Dr. Ingrid Clayton - Part 1 | Navigating Narcissism with Dr. Ramani

[Music] Dr Ingrid Clayton is a fellow shrink who joined the podcast not as an expert but as a survivor her Memoir believing me healing from narcissistic abuse and complex trauma had me hooked from the first page and I knew we needed to connect talks about complex trauma in a way I've never heard before Ingrid's ability to link her past experience to the present it's remarkable she shines a light on the struggles of those who have survived childhood abuse how they are often invalidated and gaslighted and in turn may experience Decades of complex traumatic reactions we went so deep we had to make this episode a two-parter I have no doubt you'll be as captivated as I was by Ingrid's powerful story that inspires resilience and healing this podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice counseling and or therapy from a health care professional with respect to any medical condition mental health issue or health inquiry including matters discussed on this podcast this episode discusses abuse as well as descriptions of childhood abuse which may be triggering to some people please use discretion when listening the views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast and do not represent the opinions of red table talk Productions I heart Media or their employees gaslighting doesn't just make you question the event itself it makes you question everything and when I think about that when you sort of go wow how we minimize this psychological and emotional abuse as though it's not that damaging it's like he went into my psyche and extracted Pieces of Me that I to this day feel like I will never get back growing up with a toxic narcissistically abusive parent is like living with unexploded bombs you never know what will set them off and children in these homes tiptoe through their childhoods this is made even worse when none of the adults in the home step in and protect the children and instead double down and continue to Gaslight children who are already confused scared and blaming themselves today we are going to hear from Dr Ingrid Clayton a psychologist who is a survivor of complex post-traumatic stress originating from narcissistic abuse hers is a story of childhood narcissistic abuse familial gaslighting the impacts on her adult life and relationships and how these stories can end up Ingrid has written a powerful Memoir entitled believing me healing from narcissistic abuse and complex trauma and her book is a reminder that sometimes one person's story can remind us that one is often the story of many in this first episode we will be hearing about Ingrid's abusive childhood and how the toxic Dynam mix in her childhood home magnified the challenges of her transitions in late adolescence into adulthood what a pleasure we have Dr Ingrid Clayton here who I mean your book I have to say you've written a memoir called believing me Ingrid you know a lot of people come to me with books can you read my book can you learn from my book that could be a full-time job for me but it doesn't pay so when you asked it was I'm like this is somebody who lives in my town who is a fellow professional I get the cup of tea sit on the couch and I start reading three hours later had not left to my position I am not fussy about much I am fussy about books and writing and I mean it was unbelievable everyone needs to go out and read this book and if you've had any form of trauma especially childhood relational trauma in your life you have to read this book because the amount of empathy in those pages was overwhelming but as a clinician the clarity of your story it was like what she's just because I'd be like okay is this person nope there it is up there's that there's that there's that wow and I just was thinking this is amazing so here we get ever all of you get the pleasure I got first of all you gotta read her book and we'll you know be information here on the show notes on how to get that book but you know Ingrid I'd like to just start with your story and let's start at the top can you tell us about yourself and where you're from and unspool some of that story for us yes well thank you so much for having me it's a little surreal to be honest to be here with you I followed your work and the gifts that you give to so many survivors you are really to me the expert in the field and I was taking a gamble sending you my story there's this part of me actually the little girl part of me that I'm very proud of her for going to the expert in the field in narcissistic abuse because even though I wrote it with such honesty and vulnerability there's the part of me that goes was it narcissistic abuse am I still making it up right I still suffer from that self-gas lighting after having grown up in gaslighting and it wouldn't have surprised me if you had written back and said well Ingrid let's talk about what you've written here and in fact you had the opposite take and so what you so freely offer so many people in all of the venues in terms of validation you have given to me personally and it's a gift I can quite frankly never repay so thank you for having me here I so appreciate it again I can't stress enough I almost think every clinician should read this book even more important than survivors if Christians could read this book and say this is what this looks like that's right and that's really why I wrote it so I always knew that I grew up in a dysfunctional home I knew I grew up in an alcoholic home I had that language I went on to become an alcoholic myself I got sober eventually went back to school got three degrees in Psychology became a private practice clinician and yet I didn't know that my experience science was really a classic telling of narcissistic abuse I never had that language not only that but I became a trauma therapist specializing in trauma because of this gaslighting that I just spoke to and the minimization that comes with that well this wasn't real trauma I also couldn't see myself as a trauma Survivor and without that language I stayed stuck almost like I was on this hamster wheel for decades doing the same things engaging in the same dysfunctional relationships and yet trying so hard asking asking the questions going to talk therapy many therapists over the years I didn't forget my story I knew what happened I shared it no one ever gave me the language of narcissism no one ever gave me the language of trauma and because it's my story my lived experience it was very hard for me to apply those terms until my stepfather died he is the narcissist and just him not being on this Earth anymore something was Freer in me than it had ever been my whole life I felt safer in the world literally and then I was called to write my story in a way that I didn't even know what I was writing for many years and I could look back at my own story in black and white from a clinician's lens and go this is complex trauma yeah this is the traumatic experiences these are my trauma responses unhealed that I've lived with for so long and then this is what healing looks like and I finally made sense to myself I think for the first time ever and so if I'm walking around with these degrees in this clinical information and years of training and Trauma and I couldn't see that I had complex PTSD unresolved complex trauma that originated from narcissistic abuse how many people are walking around not knowing and similarly going to three 12-step programs showing up to personal therapy going on the Retreats trying to be spiritual I did all the things you know I did all the things and none of them gave me this lens and this language to help me finally feel like I'm not broken right I love how you position that that I have complex trauma that originated from narcissist abuse that's actually more elegantly put than I've heard anyone ever say it before that's what's getting sort of missed is that that becomes the origination point that the narcissistic Dynamics are what drives the complex trauma and it is the the upside downness the confusion and not only can't you not Escape physically you can't escape mentally and that it's not viewed as trauma like it's in it's often viewed as well this is just how relationships are and families are complicated that's right and that's what a lot of people face and so once you give language to it you can start again lifting that self-blame seeing it more clearly it's not an instant heal but it allows you to lift your head long enough to do the work so can you then for listeners lay out the story like just sort of I know it's a complicated story and obviously the details we really do need to read the book but you know starting with how your mother and father your Early Childhood your mother and father divorced and that led to your mom remarrying and then your stepdad if you could just lay out that story for us what those experiences were like and as you also highlighted that you grew up in an alcoholic household and how all that played a role in this so I was about 12 maybe 11 I guess when my parents divorced and pretty immediately after they split my mom was living with Randy who is my stepdad and he had been in my life my whole life because he was my dad's best friend I mean that's how they knew each other so I had some familiarity with him but the way that I experienced it is that almost when he moved in even though my mom was there and she was still present it was as though I saw her step into his shadow where she didn't say something unless he had already endorsed it or said it before it was almost like I could see her body moving only when she had permission by him to move it I literally lost my mom to this man even when she was standing three feet in front of me and so that was so painful and so confused fusing and then couple that with their alcoholism daily Drinkers and just the instability and confusion around that I knew that something was off I knew that something was wrong I thought really it was related to the drugs and alcohol and so I became this detective I would look you know where are things hidden and what else do I not know and I was constantly trying to figure things out now I know it's hyper vigilance and so I was trying to seek safety through a sense of knowing what was going on there was not enough information to gather I could feel that there were lies and secrets and sort of smoke screens I felt like I know my stepdad has a colored past but I'd only get little bits and pieces dropped in and one of the stories I share in the book is that this this man called our house one night my parents were at the bar and I answered the phone and I hear is Ben Weber there like like a kid making being like a crank phone call and I was like well no you must have the wrong number is Ben Webber there it was so creepy and I was like you have the wrong number and then he went into a normal voice and he said how about Randy is he there and I was like whoa what is going on so the next morning I say to my stepdad This creepy guy called he then he asked for you and he said to ask you who Ben Weber is and as though we were talking about just the most normal thing he said oh well when I uh took John to Florida which is his youngest son and I took him to Florida it means he abducted his own son when he was four years old and lived under this assumed name of Ben Weber for almost three years so he tells me this story as though he's telling me would you like some orange juice and I'm looking to my mom like this sounds horrible like he stole John away and they lived in another state and he had an assumed name the way he said it was that's when I was on the lamb I was like on the lamb like sounds like some big adventure so there were all of these this combination of all of these things I didn't know what was up what was down I knew my home situation was different than other people and then I started to feel what I now have the language for I did not have the language for then which was this grooming behavior of this flirtatiousness and really I I see you and you're such a talented singer and really propping me up in these ways that were really important to me and that really mattered and then he would just rip it all away and start giving me the silent treatment for no reason and I didn't even have the language of the silent treatment I was just like why it's like I don't exist in my own home I literally felt like a ghost it was so lonely and we lived in the mountains in the middle kind of of nowhere in Colorado so it's like you're out yeah in the middle of nowhere you don't even exist in your own home and this cycle started to play out where largely it's like he detests me I get in trouble for just this tiniest things and then the punishments were really steep it's like you're grounded for months at a time you're under his thumb all the time and then out of the blue there's I'd like to take you to lunch taking me to this wonderful lunch in town just he and I picking me up on a school day let's go buy some jewelry across the street these gifts would start to come and I remember feeling I can see myself in that restaurant it's as though I go from this black and white version of myself into color like I I actually exist for the first time and I know in my then 16 year old 15 year old brain that he's manipulating me I know that he's still an [ __ ] I know this isn't going to last and I don't care I don't care I will do whatever it takes to stay in his good graces for as long as I possibly can because the alternative is so much worse of course yes Ingrid highlights such a key Dynamic here this idea of I will do what I need to do to keep a good moment going to avoid a bad moment to be on their good side this is such a complex Dynamic partly it's done to avoid the rages and the passive aggression and the cruelty but partly it's done to stay in something that feels good for a minute regardless of the kind of relationship it is this shape-shifting or even giving in in any way can be to avoid the bad stuff and to extend what feels like a good moment and all of that makes these relationships horribly confusing it contributes not only to the anxiety and unpredictability but also to a sense of shame in some survivors that they did go along with what the narcissistic person wanted but survivors are often unable to see this as a survival mechanism in that what I learned to tolerate the imprinting of trauma bonding that was just this lived experience of I know how to navigate this kind of chaos was woven into the fabric of my being in such a way that it didn't matter how far away I moved or how much you know quote-unquote work I had done on myself I couldn't override my own body I couldn't override my own conditioning I kept repeating this trauma reenactment over and over with primarily these romantic Partners unavailable men actively addicted men married men these really toxic dynamics that I didn't see coming and yet I'd go why am I in this relationship again why can't I have a healthy relationship I'm working so hard on myself and this is the thing I literally said to therapists what is going on and maybe we would talk about my story but it never made the change in me that needed to happen and I'm heartbroken about that so when you say this is for clinicians I go yes I want every therapist every coach I want it in grad schools no one was talking to me in grad school about narcissistic abuse about gaslighting about trauma bonding these are terms that I learned on Instagram I mean what a shame that is what's so powerful you use this term grooming right it's something that's come up over and over again as we've talked to people and and what was so troubling in your story was it was what we can only call intra-familial grooming like it was it was interesting because your family life was like you said it was dysfunctional it was lacking you were lonely you were isolated those are prime conditions for someone outside of a family to groom someone right so somebody would sense this person is a little isolated they'd see a young person oh you know compliment them on the thing that you know what a groomers emulate they learn what matters and then they take advantage of that situation in your case yeah your groomer was not only creating the emptiness and the fear and The desolation but then was becoming the sort of the the validation and the admiration that the groomer does I mean to me there is no more toxic Dynamic which is why the intra-familial grooming the intra-familial abuse is so much more toxic because it's the same person engaging in both patterns and which I think makes the trauma Bond that's all the more profound that's right and I want to go back and ask you a question that I'm curious about you were 11 12 and your parents divorced right and you said that when your mother got into the second marriage it was as though she didn't even see you anymore she was only oriented towards your stepfather was that her behavior when she was married to your father as well was she similar did she behave similarly in her original marriage with your biological father there was a difference but it's hard for me to say because I was even so much younger then I see my memories of childhood you know I'm very aware that there was bongs and weed all over the house and lots of drinking and the rock and roll and parties across the street at the neighbors where my parents and all their friends are naked and skinny dipping and right so there was that sort of an atmosphere but I feel like the way I've seen it is almost like my mom and my dad are kind of the same person in their codependent Tendencies you know both active alcoholics both kind of wanting to be taken care of interesting and I think that's in part why they didn't last you know that is that's actually really interesting you know I rarely get to talk somebody who's married to two parents who had codependent characteristics It's usually the codependent parent and the abusive parent but to have both is actually a pretty interesting unique and honestly troubling combination because honestly nobody's minding the store then you know they're so mired in their own stuff and so your mother breaks out of this and actually finds the new relationship she's in which it sounds like it happened pretty quickly yeah and there likely was some sense of betrayal that your father experienced because this is his best friend oh yeah they only bring this up because that's the backdrop to this right betrayal starting to almost get normalized in a strange way that's just sort of part of a relational story it takes me to my next question as you're getting older your stepfather is issuing these Draconian severe punishments grounded for months and all of that where is your mother in all of this because you're her biological child that's right and that you would think that there'd be some Primacy in that and yet he is coming in and taking in this rather severe role where is she and all this is she just signing off on this is she saying nothing like what was her function she says nothing she said nothing she's largely not there for these conversations if she's there she's so far in the background I understand I mean we just know that she doesn't have a voice so at a certain point I stopped looking over to her to get eye contact and go are you tracking this because I know it's pointless got it yeah right there though I'm looking at her to get eye contact to see if she's tracking it that loss of a mirror that idea that there's somebody else there because we know we know that when people are experiencing narcissistic abuse and invalidation and these patterns in the family sometimes it just takes one pair of eyes on you even if they're not empowered enough to intervene but that mirror that you're valid I see you I see what's happening is actually can be really restorative for people you didn't have that and I don't think that's an uncommon experience yeah for Survivor well I had it maybe once every I don't know how many years I would see a glimpse she would say we gotta get out of here and I'd say interesting yes let's do this we can do this and it would last you know for 45 minutes and then the next day it's like no that was a ridiculous idea so I had these glimpses that she was in there which I think in a way is what endeared me it was like the tiniest bit of connection it was enough for me to feel connected to her that I knew that she was under a spell right and and I just kept waiting like when is she when is she going to come out of this what's troubling is that you now know you you're calling it a spell right she didn't do the work she didn't go into therapy but she was also a parent and I guess I have to own my own stuff here and that I get really angry because I feel like once Parenthood enters a person's life there is a level of responsibility it's like you need to figure your stuff out because this is how the intergenerational Cycles persist my session with Ingrid will continue after this break foreign so time is going on he's going back and forth he's you're a great singer you're a special person let's go to lunch and then loneliness desolation rage punishments right back and forth you nailed it Ingrid that's the trauma Bond that's where it begins but it seems like things then started to escalate and in your book you talk about a trip could you share that because I think that was a real turning point in this story yeah so my mom who rarely traveled alone and really had a life outside of their relationship her father my grandfather became really ill and she had to leave and go and be with them to help out so for the first time maybe ever we were really in the house without her and this is pre-cell phones and constant contact with folks she was gone she was out of the house so one night my stepdad comes back to my room like it's Wednesday random Wednesday and he's standing in my door frame and he says Hey how do you like to go to Vegas I don't even know what he's talking about like he knows I want to be a musician sure maybe I want to go to New York L.A okay Vegas and so I just said yeah I'd like to go there someday and he goes no this weekend you want to go to Vegas this weekend and I was like what are you talking about he goes well obviously as a singer you want to witness that sort of professionalism and he was also a musician pianist singer so he really used that as a way to connect with me and I was like what are you talking about he goes listen a friend of mine gave me free tickets it's no big deal you know if you don't want to go I'll take John and John is his biological son The Golden Child the one that always gets everything when my brother Josh and I seem to get the breadcrumbs so I'm like well I don't want him to take John you know I want to go but he said but you can't you can't tell anyone about it you know the boys will be jealous I can only take one of you but again if you don't want to go so I was like oh I mean I could just feel the bind keeping secrets is such a classical part of all kinds of abusive family systems it is one of the many mechanisms by which a bond with an abuser evolves here he is asking Ingrid to keep a secret from her brothers and asking her to keep secrets becomes one more way to not only groom her but also control her and yet again like I said sitting at that table at the restaurant when you go from being Iced Out to not literally existing in your own home to now somebody wants to take you on a trip yeah there's no not going right there's no not going and so I said okay and he's like great pack your bags leave them hidden all come back and get the luggage tomorrow after I've dropped you all at school so he leaves and I am just pins and needles I'm like what does one bring to Vegas you know I'm like I know nothing about this but there is this excitement there is this like I wonder what could happen in Vegas you know and I pack I try to go to bed I can't sleep this adrenaline is coursing through me there's fear so I pick up the phone and again this is pre-cell phones right so you have one landline for a house and I knew that there were times that he would be listening on the other end when I was on the phone so I'm terrified that he's gonna know that I'm on the phone he's going to pick it up and hear it but I call his eldest son who doesn't live with us but lives nearby and I say Sean dad wants to take me to Vegas this weekend then not tell anyone about it and he's like that son of a [ __ ] like he knew who his dad was and so we were talking about the reality we weren't sugar coating it but at the same time we're both caught in that maybe maybe it is just a fun trip and maybe he doesn't want the boys to be jealous and it's almost like when you're so used to just living for these moments you go I'm just gonna take it and hope that I get through unscathed and so we just sort of joined in not thinking except he said I'm gonna get you the phone number of some people in Vegas some friends of his so that I had someone locally to call and he said I don't care if it's the middle of the night if you call me I will get in the car from Colorado and I will drive to come and get you so I was like okay all right you know I'm gonna do this thing and so are we really gonna do this I don't know and we were sitting on the plane when he said listen this trip is costing me a fortune so I only got us one hotel room and I can feel even in this moment the seat belt just strapping me in you know and I was like okay and so suddenly I'm thinking about Ben Weber and taking John away for almost three years and this other story that I know about him where his second wife because my mom was his third I knew that she was really young and I think she was about my age and he was older when they got married and I'm going Vegas and marriage and on the lamb and all these things and I'm going this trip cost you a fortune you told me you got free tickets right so his lies are already not matching up and so he takes me on this weekend where the whole time I'm just I'm doing exactly what Sean and I said I would do which is I'm going to show up and I'm just going to try to make the best of it that I can he said I have to take you shopping you gotta dress more sophisticated in Vegas so he's kind of dressing me up he said you have to hold my hand everywhere you go because minors aren't allowed in casinos and you could get kicked out and I could get arrested or get in trouble and I'm going I don't know what the rules are I know he's lying but I don't know what the truth is and there's no way for me to find doubt so here I am holding his hand in these casinos dressing in clothes that they made me feel older they made me feel more sophisticated and we were there all weekend see the part of me that knew that he was manipulating and the part of me that knew that he was grandiose and that he needed all the praise I was going to play into that and I said this trip is amazing that you're giving me like this could change my life you're gonna expose me to all these things so I don't understand why I can't tell anyone about it so I was trying to get him to go yes of course I want to share how amazing this is and he said all right listen I'll tell the family but you have to let me do it my way so it gave me just enough right and then we went on this trip and there's all kinds of details surrounding this in the story itself but eventually we came home no one ever knew I'm holding it as the secret did it even really happen did he really parade me around what felt like a girlfriend he never called me a girlfriend maybe he did he didn't try to sleep with me he got us a sweet with a huge bed with mirrors on the ceiling the stage was set the stage was set and I could feel it but essentially he didn't physically assault me that weekend and in my mind it went if he didn't physically assault me was it really that bad I mean he took me to Vegas what's the big deal and so here's where these you know mixed messages and experiences are sort of lodged in my brain where I don't again don't know what end is up I don't know what's mostly true I know what I felt I know the terror in my body I know I didn't feel safe my intuition is that he didn't want to assault me he wanted me to want him and if he gave me enough and set the stage in this way I just might and that was never in a million years going to happen and so when it didn't it would flip again where I don't exist you're dead to me he couldn't tolerate that I didn't see him that way and give him all the praise and the glory and the love that he wanted me to you know it's so interesting because there's an infantile quality to grandiosity right and what grandiosity does and we see this narcissistic Dynamic it literally glosses away any form of Reason even if resistance from and I can't imagine this something from this is a child right this is exploitative this is abusive this is a violation of trust even though that this is this is my wife's daughter the wrongs were so piled up like we can't even list them all yeah but the grandiosity again in the infantile nature of it is I have a little fantasy here and I want to hear that my my little fantasy can come true infantilizes is the word that keeps coming to my mind and grandiosity by its nature is right right it's the child putting a Superman cape on right you know it's Charming when a person's five it ceases to be Charming a little bit after that and so that's the the struggle here and the absolute Terror that it had put you in and you use the word breadcrumb and talk about breadcrumbing is that in trying to sort of get a special experience out of your your young life you're an adolescent at that point but trying to get a special experience and this is so classical in these families you have to endure so much discomfort that's right just to pull a tiny bit of what we even think could be Joy right and it wasn't even joyful you were in this absolutely tense clenched experience yes but it's as though at least this is the only way I could see something new or something different or get exposed to music this part of your book was so affecting for me when I read the part in Vegas because I felt myself clenching up I'm like this son of a [ __ ] is gonna harm her you know and I'm you know I mean the Rage that's boiling up in me so I'm feeling that tension as a reader and what then when I put that part of the book down I thought what this 16 year old girl felt being brought into the setting thinking there is only one thing that's going to happen here that's right and I don't even know what to do about it the Terror and that this is what these are childhoods of Terror that's right you know even though he did not physically assault you you were being assaulted every sense in your body that's right was being assaulted that's right the fear your brain doesn't know from fear from real right that's right your brain was reacting as though the real terrible thing was happening that's right over and over any minute any minute and that's what I carried with me for so long next to a story that was saying but it wasn't that bad yes and so when you think about complex trauma and the fragmentation that we live in this compartmentalization that we live in this disconnect from self is so profound and yet you can see how that was created by Design in all of those moments correct and the justification like well maybe that wasn't what happened right that justification is the core element of the trauma bonding experience that I'm going to find thing well I wasn't assaulted right this happened or maybe it wasn't this and no no no even when there's inconsistencies it goes back to that cognitive dissonance none of the pieces fit right so we're going to tell ourselves a story to make it fit yeah now after Las Vegas Dynamics changed in your relationship you come back nobody knows except Sean in essence yeah you know and yeah I did tell my best friend but that was it that they were the two people that knew right but Above All Else your mother didn't know as far as I knew I mean Randy said he was going to tell her but she never brought it up to me and we never talked about it so I assumed that all right things changed okay yes and the Dynamics in the relationship changed and so what would you say just even briefly where was the shift after Vegas so it largely went back to the silent treatment and I didn't exist except one time when I was walking through his room he said hey can we talk and he sat me down on his bed in their bedroom my mom wasn't there I don't know where she was and he admitted to me actually he said listen I have so much love for you and I know it's not the love that I should have for a step-daughter and when I am feeling that love and I want to give you the world you know it's when I treat you whatever like he was basically laying out I know exactly what I'm doing and when I'm doing it and then the guilt gets too big and I have to shut it down and I basically have to give you the silent treatment and I'm sitting there it's such a weird experience because I'm like he knows that this is what he's doing it didn't occur to me that he could say it so succinctly that he had that much Consciousness around it and in the Consciousness there's a little bit of hope I'm like is he telling me that he's gonna like go and get some help and and figure this out and he doesn't in fact do that what he's using this information to do initially it felt like a confession my body knows it's coercion I want you to see how much I suffer in my love for you and I said to him I am glad that you're talking about it I'm probably not the most appropriate person to tell it's remarkable to me that you had the presence of mind to respond it is remarkable to me to be honest because what I was feeling was just rage rage yes and then when I said that it's like everything he just told me played out on his face he went from loving me to hating me to you don't exist and he just stormed out of the room and walked away and in Ingrid also he's talking about these emotional states he's having about you as though any of this is appropriate right any of this should be shared anywhere but a therapist is a at this point I say delusional grandiosity and you know disconnection and all of that my session with Ingrid will continue after this break [Music] thank you so at some point you're going through adolescence you graduate from high school okay as it comes to the point where you're getting close to graduating high school which for many people would mean sort of a logical time you could leave the home were there any instances where physically he was coercive or attempted to harm you or was it this ongoing silent treatment sharing inappropriate feelings cycle I was close to graduating so I felt like there was light at the end of this tunnel and was kind of hanging in there for just a little bit longer and there was one night where I'm back in my bedroom and he comes back to my room again similar to Vegas standing in the doorway but I'm sort of meeting him there and there's this look that I will just never forget where he is there but he's not really there there's this darkness in his eyes as though there's just a vacancy it was a very scary look on his face and with that he leaned in and he kissed me a very forceful not a fatherly kiss at all and I was just honestly stunned I think I was frozen and he pulled back and he looked at me and then he went in to do it again and when he came in again I pushed him off of me I just yelled his name I said what are you doing and without like any real reaction I sort of saw him it was as though he came back into his body in a way and he said I'm sorry and he turned around and he walked away and we never talked about it again but I did eventually tell the story about Vegas and his confession and This Kiss to the counselor at school and she finally said Ingrid this is a problem and we have to call social services and honestly it felt like she knew that I she knew the whole story she knew I didn't have bruises she knew that he didn't physically assault me in that hotel room and yet she still said it was reportable and I was like oh that's that's hopeful that's interesting it seemed like she not only wanted to advocate for me but she was thinking as a mom herself and she's like I want to advocate for your mom and maybe we bring your mom in first before Randy comes into the equation with social services and to be honest this is what led to what feels to me even more traumatic than Vegas because it led to a series of events where I heard my mom say I believe that you believe those things happened but I don't believe that they did [Applause] you're right I mean it that that moment when the where there should be that moment of recognition it's the loss of recognition that is at the core of what this trauma is right to not have that recognition happen in real time right there when there's even another person bearing witness in the room it is like an eradication of your very existence yeah that's right and it changed me forever can you tell what was that change for you I think I had some hopefulness even through childhood right these moments we're gonna leave or you know I would see her actually inhabiting her own body in a way that felt hopeful to me but when I laid everything out in front of a school counselor two social workers my brothers were there and I genuinely thought okay here's the moment where she's going to rally and the hopelessness in that is so deep and yet I think like most children the loss of connection to a caregiver or parent is so severe because we're wired for survival through our relationships with these people that I literally couldn't tolerate that she discarded me she abandoned me in that moment so a part of me clocked it knowing that that's what happened and another part of me said I will live the rest of my life trying to prove her wrong and I will do it through a whole host of trauma responses through perfectionism through achievement you know all of this betterment that I did it was in part genuine interest but in part it's like I am going to evolve to such a place that it's so obvious that I am not the manipulative liar that you're making me out to be and eventually still waiting waiting for her to come out of this fog and this shell and back into herself to say of course I would never abandon my daughter that you brought up a couple of things here one is that the issue of hope hope is an extraordinarily dangerous thing in a narcissistic relationship because what it does is it keeps people on the Chain that's right a little bit further you know we talk about future faking yeah you know it's almost self-future figure yes right yes okay this is it the social workers everyone's in the room this will be the moment right and what gets harder is each one of these hopes gets dashed it's actually multiplies the level of Devastation the other thing you said and I'm so glad you said this I don't think we talk about this enough is in many survivors of the complex trauma the narcissistic abuse you endured they doubled down on perfectionism I'm going to be more I'm going to achieve this I'm going to do everything and we will see people the perfectionism will get to the point of obsession sometimes we'll see disordered eating or even Frank diagnosed Eating Disorders I may have the perfect body I'm going to you know I'm going to some people will start taking drugs so they can succeed at school they'll take you know stimulants like I'm going to stay up all night I don't know that perfectionism is ever a good thing but it's destructive perfectionism right as this is not who I am so I'm going to have to show the world in this externalized kind of achievement orientation yes rather than an internalized simply I'm not this person and I hope that for a lot of people listening to this that they may say you know I was not sitting there as the the quote-unquote like sort of damaged person who didn't get out of bed I was doing and doing and doing all the time and that to understand that where that emanates from that's right because in a way it's that incredible things are achieved from doing that but it's such a profound loss instead of doing it because you know you're good and this is what I want to do and this is what I'm going to go achieve this it's it's this act of defiance that harms you that's the problem with the sort of perfectionistic trauma and it just reinforces the wound because none of the listen if these things solved the problem that I was trying to solve I would be like fantastic but the problem with it is that they didn't and so now if I have three degrees in Psychology and I that did all the things that I was seeking out to solve this problem and I still have it then Romney the depth of my Brokenness must be so deep and these things satiated me for maybe 30 seconds that's how long they felt good I was instantly surveying the land of what's the next thing that I got to do because this one didn't fix it and so it's the flight response right we think of the flight trauma response as just the animal who flees in danger but it also looks like staying in perpetual motion right it's the obsessive compulsive it's the perfectionist it's and I live in that space I lived in that space I am grateful for some of the things that came out of it but for the part of me that was doing it because she genuinely thought she was broken and stupid and unlovable I mean the devastation of that I can't really even speak to it I can't articulate that internal lived experience it's it's brutal it's brutal I mean I'm a fellow traveler with you on that so even as you're saying this I'm filling this in a very heart you know deep way in the sense of I look at the manic quality of my life and I to this day you know when people say you're doing a good job I'm like I sort of smile politely and it's on to the next thing because it's all an offset to the internal damage I experience Within Myself you know that's right Romney is a flawed person so she does good things it's almost like putting perfume on myself instead of taking a shower you know the stink of my Badness is going to come out but I'm doing these good things but it's never enough you're never going to get away from that so I think you're articulating something that's a real Universal experience for all of us who are sort of hyper achieving survivors so thank you for so eloquently bringing voice to that so now you're graduate high school what happens you just get to move out what what because now you're 18 right the game changer well I'm still 17 I graduated at 17 but I did sort of figure out how to apply for school mostly because my friends were doing it you know it wasn't like there were these like there wasn't regular parenting where you go you know how can we help you grow and and Achieve as a person so I'm like fumbling along trying to Cobble this thing together and I apply to school state school I got in by the skin of my teeth and I'm packing up my bathroom ready to pack up my car and leave and Randy comes back and I literally genuinely thought in that moment like oh maybe he's gonna try to leave on good terms right maybe there's a pep talk coming and he said if you're gonna go to college and spread the lies that you've been spreading around here all these years you should go and tell them you're an orphan because that would be closer to the truth and so I literally said thanks for the pep talk and he walked away and that was it and then I put stuff in my car my mom comes out to see me off she's experiencing The Empty Nest sadness oh my goodness my daughter's leaving and she's crying and did you say goodbye to Randy you know and I'm like yeah we said goodbye you know and I got in the car and I drove away and there was this real feeling that I had not only then but many other times in my life where it's like there's gonna be a clean slate there's gonna be a I get to start over I get to show up maybe be in a normal environment I'm gonna rebuild myself essentially from the ground up as Ingrid leaves for college there are two things that arise in this sequence first there is that infernal hope that characterizes these traumatizing narcissistic family systems the hope that her stepfather was genuinely going to come and say goodbye and wish her well then her mother having this superficial sort of empty nest reaction the same mother who denied her experience of abuse in front of a social worker it was an absolute disconnect as though her mother was playing the role of mother in a play or something like that but she really wasn't invested in what motherhood meant in narcissistic family systems the children exist to serve parental needs be what the parents want or literally simply serve as props in the parents picture and what I ultimately experienced over and over and over again is that cliche thing that I brought myself with me I brought my conditioning with me I brought my low self-worth my inability to trust myself this is the thing I say that I didn't quite understand for a long time that gaslighting doesn't just make you question the event itself it makes you question everything correct and when I think about that when you sort of go wow how we minimize this psychological and emotional abuse as though it's not that damaging it's like he went into my psyche and extracted pieces of me that I to this day feel like I will never get back and so that's who I brought with me to college trying to show up in these dorms with other kids in these fresh faces and I'm gonna get a pretty duvet that's a nice idea but all the while I don't want to get out of bed in the morning my alcoholism is taking off full speed I do not have the skills to cope not just with these external expectations of like I didn't learn how to study I didn't know how right right so I'm just literally cobbling it together and only stayed for a year because I didn't have more money to keep going to school I wasn't going to take out loans I wasn't really there to learn I was there just I was trying to be a normal girl in the world and so then if I feel like I couldn't cut it there what am I going to do now you know so just a series of events that eventually I moved to New York when I was 19 because now I'm gonna take back that other thing that I thought he stole from me which was a connection to my love of music and to my voice as a singer and I'm gonna go and do that I always find it fascinating when survivors of narcissistic abuse go on to pursue their Artistry music dance acting visual art writing these types of family systems steal a person's voice and being an artist of any kind is such a pure expression of taking back that voice again and having it be seen read or heard by the world I always say instead of moving to New York to be a rock star I got sober instead like that's basically what happened I just fell on my face but that brought me to this really loving community of people that I eventually sort of stumbled into that started to give me that experience of being seen and even being seen in my time of need and Brokenness in a way that I was like what is happening and I couldn't really tolerate it to be honest and so my body knew it was there knew that it needed it like life or death needed it but I ended up going to a different meeting every single day a different 12-step meeting different 12-step meetings every day because I didn't want you to recognize me and try to have a conversation it felt too threatening but I needed to go and I needed to show up so I'm just like in that directory every day like the options were getting thin right it's like oh I'm going to a different meeting every day for 90 days I went to a different meeting until I finally found one that I was like I feel safe enough I think I can come back and I kept coming back and stayed there my whole first year and it was foundational like I said it got me sober but it really gave me this sense of a family that I was always seeking yes yes in a way that was profound I'm so grateful for that what it is too is that I didn't want to be seen I'd keep going to different meetings it's that how intimacy gets to be such a co-opted space when we're experienced narcissistic abuse especially early in life and in your case it was even more so because intimacy became a sullied space right intimacy then was then sort of embedded as it were into an inappropriate sharing of emotion and feeling you didn't see a normalized intimacy either between your own biological parents or your mother and your stepfather and any sort of sharing of it was in this in again in this inappropriate way so how could Intimacy in any form be safe for you so the going to the 90 different meetings actually really speaks to you know that again what is what is a trauma survivors you know sort of quest it's safety where am I safe the other thing and maybe you can speak to this I'm very surprised at how people are responding to this element of what I wrote in the book because I thought it was personal to me I thought a lot of this was just personal to me so I'm very surprised at how common of a story this is but one of the reasons I didn't go back to the same meeting twice for so long is I knew that I couldn't stop drinking and okay maybe we have that shared experience but I really believe in this is the word that I use to myself that I was evil and I thought I need you so desperately to save my life but if you really know me that's right you're gonna know that I'm evil and so I really thought about it when I was writing the book I was like Ingrid are you really gonna use that word like isn't it being a little dramatic and I was like that is what I felt and that's what I'm going to write and how many people have reached out and said I thought I was the only one that felt that way that I was evil because everything that was evil about my stepdad it's like he implanted it in me and then my mom said yes that's where the evil lives it lives in you and it wasn't the whole of me it's never been the whole of me but a part of me said maybe they're right again that sentiment and I was so glad you had written it that way because there's not a Survivor I've ever worked with clinically who hasn't uttered that sentence once gosh I must be you know is it Dr Romney is it me I'm I feel like maybe I'm the evil one and I mean like you just bright light walking through the world and I'm thinking evil yeah and yet then the fact that they uttered it like that that's even like you said it's not the all of them and I certainly weren't walking around the world in the sense that they're evil but that there was even a part of them and like you said it's almost like this parasite that gets implanted in you that's such a great word as a result of these kinds of experiences here are my takeaways from part one of Ingrid's story first achievement and perfectionism are not uncommon fallouts of childhood narcissistic abuse and are often missed because who is going to pathologize a high achieving child or adolescent It's Not Unusual for survivors to put their head down or disprove the family rhetoric that the targeted child is a liar or too sensitive or manipulative in Ingrid's story she highlights her focus on achieving and being perfect a story that is echoed in many survivors however there is no such thing as good perfectionism and these patterns can culminate in compulsive behaviors obsessive thoughts rigidity or even dysregulation for this next takeaway being from a narcissistic family system often means living with not being seen or not being Chosen and what we witness in Ingrid's story is that this got distorted to another level she was often not seen or chosen but when she was finally seen or chosen it was a distorted abusive experience survivors of narcissistic abuse are often penduluming between wanting to be seen and wanting to avoid being seen which can be exhausting and confusing and because both experiences were often unhealthy for most survivors it can feel as though there is no safe way to show up in the world for this next takeaway Ingrid said something in the episode that is very reminiscent of what many survivors of emotional abuse or other forms of abuse experience when there are no visible bruises left behind Ingrid was clearly abused above and beyond the emotional narcissistic abuse she was coerced to share a bed and was forcibly kissed while she was a minor Ingrid shares that she grappled was what so many survivors struggled with was it abused if there are no bruises if the bruises of emotional abuse showed up on a person's face or body they would be rushed to the hospital immediately no questions asked we must at all levels create this awareness with Educators Health Care Providers therapists clergy social service agencies Domestic Abuse programs policy makers and law enforcement all needing to understand that abuse is not something that can be detected just by looking at someone Ingrid's story is so rich and complex that we are sharing it across two episodes and our next episode will explore how these patterns of narcissistic abuse affected Ingrid as an adult just because she moved out of the family home doesn't mean that these patterns stopped affecting her in our next episode you will hear how these patterns shape adult behaviors relationships and hopes and how these Cycles can sometimes feel impossible to break Ingrid's story is less about whether you can ever come home again but rather about whether you can ever completely leave home a big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith Fallon Jethro Ellen racketon and Dr romini davassala and thank you to our producer Matthew Jones associate producer Mara de la Rosa and consultant Kelly ebeling and finally thank you to our editors and sound Engineers Devin Donahue and Calvin bailiff foreign

Channel: Navigating Narcissism

Views: 58,038

Keywords: Navigating Narcissism, Navigating Narcissism Podcast, Dr. Ramani Podcast Navigating Narcissism, Navigating Narcissism Dr. Ramani, Dr. Ramani Narcissism Podcast, Dr. Ramani Durvasula, narcissism, podcast show, radio podcast, trauma bonding, grooming, gaslighting, narcissistic family, alcoholism, alcohol abuse, narcissistic stepdad, narcissistic dad, narcissistic relationship, navigating narcissism, podcast, vodcast, Dr. Ramani, psychologist, NPD, therapy, relationships, red table talk

Id: 96J7ePYe2sU

Length: 58min 29sec (3509 seconds)

Published: Tue Mar 07 2023