Ta-Nehisi Coates | Between the World and Me

it is so good being here and you see that they get these little stools for me because I'm so tall and but it is an honor to be here as usual at this place that this library where we have seen so many people come through and and make Philadelphia feel really good I want to begin by reading a stanza from between the world and me by Richard Wright and one morning while in the woods I stumbled suddenly upon the thing stumbled upon it in a grassy clearing guarded by scaly Oaks and Elms and the details of the scene rose thrusting themselves between the world and me the title of our dear brothers book woke up this morning with my eyes on Richard Wright I say woke up this morning with my eyes on Jimmy Baldwin woke up this morning with my eyes on Amiri Baraka woke up this morning with my eyes on tondc Coates gonna leave gonna love gonna resist just like them in this country we're history herstory stretches in aristocratic silence a young writer has come at the beginning of the 21st century carrying the quiet urgency of a star and the country is not the same I say who is this man who sang down the lids of the country against peacock catastrophes I say I say who is this man always punctual with his tongue his eyes his heart his head hands I say I say who is this man who found memory beneath our doors who perform surgery on our national memory who began to ask questions as he resurrected summer on our American landscape as he anointed our eyes with the tapestry of young black breaths behold this man questioning the flesh of American intellect with words and history and information and love behold this writer this man this husband this father the son this grandson speaking to our her story and history whose hands are larger than the sea he asked whose hands are larger than the sea whose eyes are larger than the stars whose color is more important to God behold this rider with a miracle on his tongue saying step inside I say step inside Africans White step inside blacks and Chicanos and Puerto Ricans step inside Muslims and Jews step inside Americans and Asians and transgenders and gays and lesbians step inside we are all wild time here amumu and me amor rosemary amumu onmy amor watermelon seeds peppermint and garlic with roses caught in our throats our hands anoint it with eyes our legs greet themselves at this American door step inside step inside I say step inside a moon when me amor our bones join at the spine our blue midnight breaths I say I say I say what Frantz Fanon said what is needed to what is needed is to hold oneself like a sliver to the heart of the world to interrupt if necessary the rhythm of the world to upset if necessary the chain of command but ellipsis to stand up to the world I do battle for the creation of a human world that is a world of reciprocal recognition and I say and I say and I say and I say we hear you my dear brother doing battle for a human world I say I say I say I say we hear you sing in the morning when and becoming the wind I say I say you young man coming to us warrior clear your intellect kissing our spines we see your solitary demanding dignity and change you Tonda he see Colts uuuu tah nahi see Colts you weave of words threading silver and gold into our veins I say I say I say behold and welcome tah Nagisa coats this Friday night in Philadelphia woke up this morning with my eyes on you you you you you you you who woke up this Monday my eyes on Donaghy's decodes woke up this one of my eyes on you you you you you you you you you you you gonna live gonna love gonna be sis just like you you you you who uuuuu uuuuu uuuuu how was the show introduction yeah good evening everyone I'm Tracy Matt a sec it's my great pleasure to be here with all of you tonight and let's see I just want to thank you for advancing the conversation about race in a way that I don't think anyone has done in quite a long time and so we're glad that you're here with us today we've a lot to talk about [Applause] what I'm begin by talking about the book between the world and me you wrote it as a letter to your son and it's a letter of love of admonishment of history of nostalgia why did you decide to write the letter or write the book in the form of a letter well before I do that I this is Philadelphia where my dad is from and as it happens there are a number of people who absolutely I'm so sorry I take time and forgive me if I miss anybody it was not you know I didn't mean to do it first of all this book would not be possible without dr. Mable Jones are you here dr. Jones anywhere and Jen are you here is Jen here hi Jen okay with the baby and naina are you here is Nina here oh my god there's Nina in the back thank you mean is what 15 16 years old so she won't stand up she's a teen in your community if you have any love for this book you have to have a love for that family right there that is the family of Prince Jones this book would not [Applause] [Music] well you know a prince Jones was was murdered fifteen years ago and I didn't I hadn't had much experience with death at that point I would not you know over exaggerate my relationship with friends he was a brother who you know in the parlance at a time you know I would I would say I had love for a lot of love for friends and he was just killed in the worst possible way and you can you know hear it in the book I came to the home of dr. Jones some fourteen years later and shockingly she agreed to speak with me to talk about it because I would have totally totally understood had she just slammed the door in my face and said you know I want nothing to do with this it's just that much pain but she didn't do that she opened her life to me she talked to me and this book simply is not possible with without that sort of sacrifice or whatever love you have for this book you have to have love for the folks here in your community who were willing to share and make this book possible and and and really work for a day when something like you know what happened to Prince won't happen again so I just wanted to make sure I thank them also I think is my aunt Barbara and on top you guys here anyway you don't have to stand up you just got to raise your hands okay all right I'm not gonna make you stand up Barbara my aunt Barbara and on top of your hope are you here hope my cousin hopes you okay all right that's okay okay IRA many way hope mom Barbara no table Union nothing is more important than family and I have memories of going down to the Eastern Shore of Maryland when my people were enslaved and and I think about it all the time where my family is from but I don't you know particularly have memories of enslavement obviously but I have memories of is waffles and pancakes which I love them on top of in my own barber wouldn't make them for me and they are here tonight and I'm so happy that they're here the other person and again if I missed anybody please you know forgive me the other person is my friend Jody reporter who's seated over here you can stand brother you can stand and shoulder some I mean sister son you started with the poem from Richard right Joel introduced me to that poem I wouldn't know about that poem if it were I would never have you know read the poem between the world and me along with you know much of the poetry that's quoted in this book much of the poetry I've talked about Joel is so special because he's had a hand in the lives of so many great writers I'm lucky enough to be nominated for the National Book Award this year for nonfiction but the other person who's nominated with me is Terrance hey so Joel was also a mentor to you know in in DC and joel is obviously in his own right a great poet but just a scholar man just a scholar and this was a brother who I met when I was you know 17 years old about to turn 18 and really took me under his wing argue with me the way my dad used to argue with me it just gave me an education in literature and it's um it's right there in that book and I'm sorry after all those thank yous I forgot what your question oh we gotta take care of first things okay all right so the book is written oh yes the letter that's right you asked me why I did it right yes well I wish I had something better to say to what I'm about to say to fathom as I tried to write between the world and me several times and it just you know it was kind of not working the latter is really a literary device you know there is nothing in that book that you know had any reason to be a letter to my son because everything that's in the book I'd already told them we'd already talked about there's no new information for Samari in that book but by writing towards him it gave me a person it gave me a reader who I deeply deeply cared about and because of that that that focused the energy of the writing in a very very particular way and angled it made it very very specific it streamlined it I knew exactly who I was talking to so ultimately was the thing that you know it made made the book possible so I'd love for you to read a passage yes if you would and this one is about a rather pivotal event that took place in your life you were 11 years old living in Baltimore and and so this was one of those moments that you never forget I've marked off this little section and enough to hear you read it in your in your voice okay fear is a fear fear is just such a strong component I'm a little bit like okay it's a strong component in this book and this is you know a moment when the fear really crystallized for me I was 11 years old standing out in the parking lot in front of the 7-eleven watching a crew of older boys standing near the street they yelled and gestured at who another boy young like me who stood there almost smiling gamely throwing up his hands he had already learned the lesson he would teach me that day that his body was in constant jeopardy who knows what brought him to that knowledge the projects a drunken step father and older brother concussed by the police a cousin pinned in the city jail that he was outnumbered did not matter because the whole world had outnumbered him long ago and what do numbers matter this was a war for the possession of his body and that would be the war of his whole life I stood there for some seconds marveling at the older boys beautiful sense of fashion they all wore ski jackets the kind which in my day mothers put on layaway in September then piled up overtime hours so as to have the thing wrapped and ready for Christmas I focused in on a light-skinned boy with a long head and small eyes he was scowling at another boy who was standing close to me it was just before 3:00 in the afternoon I was in the sixth grade school they just let out and he was not yet the fighting weather of early spring what was the exact problem here who can know the boy with the small eyes reached into his jacket and pulled out a gun I recalled it in the slowest motion as though in a dream there the boy stood with the gun brandished which he slowly untucked tucked and then untucked once more and in his small eyes I saw a surging rage that could in an instant he raced my body that was 1986 that year I felt myself to be drowning in the news reports of murder I was aware that these murders very often did not land upon the intended targets but fell upon great arts PTA mothers over time uncles and joyful children fell upon them random and relentless like great sheets of rain I knew this in theory but could not understand it in fact until the boy with the small eyes stood across from me holding my entire body in his small hands the boy did not shoot his friends pulled him back he did not need to shoot he had affirmed my place in the order of things he had let it be known how easily I could be selected I took the subway home that day processing the episode all alone I did not tell my parents I did not tell my teachers and if I told my friends I would have done so with all the excitement needed to obscure the fear that came over me in that moment I remember being amazed that death could so easily rise up from nothing of a boyish afternoon billow up like the fog I knew their best West Baltimore where I lived that the Northside of Philadelphia where my cousins lived to the south side of Chicago where the Friends of my father lived comprised a world apart somewhere out there beyond the firmament past the asteroid belt there were other worlds with children did not regularly fear for their bodies [Applause] so that is a theme that runs through the book this this theme of the endangerment of the black body mm-hmm well in my other job my main job I'm a journalist and you know I discipline out of out of a sense of frustration with the craft of journalism because I spent a lot of time with like facts and figures and numbers and I think while you need those tools to understand social forces in this country those tools can also obscure things they can blind you to the fact of individual lives and so when I went to write between the world and me the most important thing was that I make this tactile and I'll make it hot that you'd be able to feel it that really is the job of literature for you to be able to feel a thing and identified I didn't want it to be an intellectual exercise I you know I do that in my regular job I wanted it to be an emotional exercise I had written an article called a case for reparations for the Atlantic and one of the big theories in that article was that the the great theme the relationship between african-americans and their country since the time they arrived since I'm we arrived enslaved in 1619 up through today was plunder the plunder was how we should understand enslavement the plunder was how we should understand the era of Jim Crow that plunder is how you should understand the era of read Lonnie the plunders even how you should understand the era of mass incarceration but I feel happy having done 9 having written that article I was left kind of cold because I was wondering but how does it feel for an individual person to live in that sort of way and I was one of the big you know reasons for writing between the world and me so you just mentioned the piece that you wrote on reparations which got a lot of attention talk about that about what those reparations might look like in your view how would that play out and what might they accomplish well you know I think um well first let's go to the case which you know has been controversial and you say reparations and people go you know and argument I'm making a piece of reparations is not controversial at all you know first of all we have a current we have a history in this country of giving reparations it's not a foreign concept during the Second World War we imprisoned a number of Japanese American citizens of this country and we did it under you know the suspicion that they might you know somehow collaborate with our enemies Ronald Reagan signed legislation to give reparations to japanese-americans who were interned it was an injury that they had incurred that was unjust and we decided to pay them for that with the exception of Native Americans you know I really cannot think of another class in this country who have suffered repeated injury to the benefit of other people that then African Americans that injury is not incidental that injury is not a misunderstanding that injury is the direct result of policy 250 years of slavery in this country was not incidental wasn't a mistake it wasn't a byproduct of American freedom it is the basis of American freedom the onset of the Civil War the amount of wealth that the four million African Americans enslaved in our southern states represented was more wealth than all the banks all the railroads all the productive capacity this country put together it was less than the four million black folks who were enslaved if you wanted to go find the area if you wanted to look for the largest concentration of multimillionaires in this country highest per-capita you would not come here to Philadelphia in 1860 you would not go to New York you would not go to Boston or Chicago you would go to the Mississippi River Valley when you see multimillionaires who had made their money through the exploitation of black bodies and we who live here in the north are not exempt from this in fact in 1860 right before we go into the Civil War 60% of our exports America's X was not southern exports American exports are cotton products that was how we built our wealth trying to imagine America separate from that wealth is impossible now when I wrote the article that that's slavery right there when I wrote the article I didn't even focus on slavery what I focus was how we built our modern middle-class and the way we did it was through a program of social engineering I during the ninth the late 1930s and then into the 1940s during the New Deal we had a series of programs that allowed for certain people in this country to purchase home loans I'm sorry to purchase homes and the way we did it was we subsidized home loans for those people we did it to be FHA we did it through the GI Bill holc he had all these programs for folks the suburbs that ring all of our major cities the Levittown's that we had they did not spring up by magic it was subsidized through federal tax money that African Americans paid into but there was only one group that was exempt from those programs and that group was African Americans and through a program of redlining which meant that if an African American moved onto your block your block is automatically not el is ineligible for those government backed loans through that program black people were cut out of the largest wealth building opportunity perhaps in American history that was policy and when you understand how it was passed when you understand the politics at that time there is a Democratic administration that passed and the only way it was gonna get passed and this is true by the way for the rest of the New Deal programs too for Social Security unemployment etc the only way it was going to get passed the only way you could get southern support the support of the solid south was to cut black people out and that's what happened you wouldn't have to programs any other way now this whole time black people are holding up their end of the social contract they're paying their taxes they're paying the laws they're being you know holding up their end of the citizenship bargain but they're not getting the same rewards back in my estimation that's plunder if I am living in Mississippi in 1920 and I'm paying my taxes like everybody else and you are using my tax money to subsidize to erect to take care of a public university system that I can't attend that is plunder you're taking from me to do something that I can't actually utilize if you're taking my tax dollars and you're using it to subsidize a public library system that I can't borrow books from that is plunder you've taken from me you've caused me some sort of injury if you're taking care of a a system that is segregated a pool system that's area to be using my money for the benefit of other people you are plundering me that is the theme of the relationship of African Americans to their government in that society such that at this point in history for every five cents of wealth that African Americans have african-american families have white families have a dollar that's the result of policy that's not magic so we have a notion in our head that somehow we can fix that gap without actually giving any of the money back without a vest and we submit all this time taking but some other problem is going to disappear without us giving back reparation is the argument that there is in fact an injury that we have a policy of injuring black people and a way to reverse that the way to reverse that wealth gap the way to bring us to equality is to give some of that money back now you asked about you know how that could be done it could be done any number of ways I you know in my story I left with the gentleman by the name of Claude Claude Ross who was directly injured by housing policy people say people do reparations a debt they are not dead plenty are around walking right now clot Ross deserves a check period he was ill he was deprived of the right to acquire a loan like everybody else his neighborhood was plundered as a result he deserves a check but it doesn't even have to end just with checks you know it may be a situation in which you know I'm a little biased here but we we you know direct resources to historically black colleges you know it may be a situation where African Americans are yeah I tell them a little by since I'm with the house you know it may be you know a situation in which folks are allowed to you know just attend or chief higher education for a number of years you know and not have to pay this the same way you know it could be any number of programs but I don't think that's the obstacle I think obviously was getting people to own up to the debt in the first place you see if you can get me one on up to the debt then you know will at least make an effort well at least make an effort to do something if that piece you quoted our own Mayor Michael Nutter and and the context of the quote as I recall was talking about the idea that some people hold that black people need to just get it together and get on with it these you know cultural issues these social areas these pathologies as you said in the article or something that you know black people need to just get it together and get on with it and then you quoted the mayor saying you know to young people pull your pants up get a belt you know nobody wants to see your behind that sort of thing well I don't want to see you behind I'm okay we'll get pulling your pants I'm putting the belt on and you know dressing appropriately when you when you go to a job interview I have no problem you know with the message of moral uplift that's the message I give to my son I'm not upset with that I am saying that as a explanation for why we have a twenty to one wealth gap that falls short that's my point that's why I have nothing wrong with you know telling young people to do you know as I say that's the mess you know but that's not an explanation you know for why you know he has to deal with the stuff that's written in the book it's just not I think all people spell struggle with moral issues I think all communities struggle with moral issues there is nothing particular about the african-american african-american community that I've seen that makes me feel like the community struggles any more than any other community my message to black people is has always been you know quite simple city center I have one to deliver I should say what I've learned from black people is actually quite simple it really is nothing wrong with African Americans that the total and complete elimination of white supremacy would not fix if we get the boot off on that we'll be fine we'll be fine should you take care your kids yeah you should everybody should you know I mean should you pay attention to school yeah you should you know should you dress appropriately and do two things that you need to do when you go on the job yes you should but that has limited explanatory power when you compare it to the long history of London well and let me just follow up with that because you write about you know criminality about so many of the issues that tend to plague the african-american community disproportionately are we as african-americans to some degree culpable in in in some of the problems that we face do we have some culpability in the issues that we struggle with I just don't think so I just I just don't you know when you when you when you look at the wait you know I mean I we have been free in this country for 150 years we want to slave for 250 years and let's just give that up let's not even tell me I just mention it but that's not it's not like after slavery people were like okay go on your merry way and proceed to be happy that's not what happened what happened was we got the longest most lethal Asst domestic terrorist campaign in American history that was the reward that was what you came out of slavery and the people who you know suffered through at least the tale into that are still alive like they're with us that's not like distant memory and it didn't happen a long time ago and then after that happened you know we looked at you know I've been writing about this recently you know we looked in our cities and we saw you know a rise in crime and crime was rising internationally people don't tend to know that but crime is rising international paths that you saw in America and not particularly distinct but the answer that America gave to that problem was a program of massive incarceration I just and by the way we're gonna be dealing with that for like like decades you know as a current consensus right now that says this can be easily remedied it cannot be easily remedied we are America's incarceration rate in 1970 was somewhere on the order of about 150 four hundred thousand that's about the norm for Western Europe America's incarceration rate right now is seven hundred four hundred thousand we are a gigantic outlier in the Western world the incarceration rate for african-american men is something like 4000 per hundred thousand one in three african-american men in this country will eventually spend some time in prison african-american men who are high school dropout 60% chance of eventually spending some sort of time that's the result of policy we made decisions you know and so if you believe the black community has the capability to be superhuman then yes we have some culpability you know if you believe that you know ultimately you know we are you know a race of supermen and superwomen and yet we have some culpability but if we are humans like everybody else in this country if we are humans like everybody else in this country who has been advantaged repeatedly by policy over us the no the no no more sold into Japanese Americans had culpability for their internment no more so than the Native Americans had culpability for the theft of their land no more so than any other you know group of people you know who had genocide practiced against them no I just I can't I can't about it you make a statement in the in the book I'm going to ask you to unpack it a little bit it says white America in quotes is a syndicate a raid to protect its exclusive power to dominate and control our bodies sometimes this power is direct lynching sometimes it is insidious redlining but however it appears the power of domination and exclusion is central to the belief in being white and without it white people quote-unquote would cease to exist for want of reason right right that that's not my I love that idea and I would love to take credit but there's a James Baldwin from the fire next time if that's that's what he said I mean see that's Channel and I'm not ducking arguing I'll gladly had an argument but I just cuz I think the arguments right I just don't want take credit for it but it is essentially correct and and what you have to get here is um there is no consistent notion and so I don't know if you remember this but I'm thinking like black folk here and they're like back in the day us reading that that there is no consistent definition of white people across time in history and there's not really no consistent definition of black people across time in history we have a theory of race in this country which says that there is a pure group of people call black people who originated in Africa you know what brought to America a pure group of people called white people were brought to you know Kame that it's gone you weren't brought came to this country a pure group of you know group of people call Asian Americans maybe who came here a pure group of Native Americans who were here and now it even looks like a pure you know race of Hispanics and Latinos we made that decision now you know who are themselves now a race but see we've made a decision and that's not unique to them I mean that that's what we do we we make decisions about people and so if you know I were somewhere you know in Louisiana in I don't know 1810 I might or might not be classified as black I might be classified as an octave and all you know whole list of other things that someone might call me if I went to Brazil I might have to check some you know entirely different box we know that when Italians came here when Irish folks came here when Jews came here they were not initially hailed and welcomed in as white people there was a process of them becoming y-you can see this into history when you look at like the laws from the time black folks first get here as slaves in 1619 you see like great rates of in a marriage and folks having children together between enslaved black people and whites who are in indentured service this notion of race of being biologically distinct and that being the ultimate thing that matters did not really exist until it became an interest that was needed to make it exist and that interest became manifest through slavery so when we talk about white America they think that understands you and not talking about a group of fair-skinned people per se that's not that's not really what you're talking about you're talking about a definition that was erected to maintain power that is just the history that is that's where the definition of white and out from you know one's rob rule all that comes about whose bodies are we gonna possess and exploit and whose bodies will we not be able to possess and explain and without that power what is there I mean seriously what is there to two white and I'm happy to engage an argument on that you know I would love to hear what it is you know that I think is the key or one of the key problems you know in terms of you know having a conversation about race you have so much to lose here including your very name because I just I just I I don't see what it is besides that you talk about how are you talking about exploitation of bodies we have to talk about the police shootings certainly this past year in particular it seemed that every day and and it's not to say that it's not happening every day but we were hearing about it every day how well are we addressing that issue at this point we're talking about body cameras and and taking some measures to address that but how well are we doing in that regard don't okay we're doing okay we could be doing better I don't like the incessant focus on police and police violence you know I think it misses the point the example I always think about its Freddie gray you know in my home town Freddie gray was was was uh lived in the Gilmore homes when my mother was raised I think about like like what led to his arrest in the first place and basically what Freddie gray did was well first of all let's take it back even even further than that you know Freddie gray suffered intense you know he suffered from lead poisoning and anybody knows anything about Baltimore any our cities we know who disproportionately suffers from that poisoning and who does not so right right out the gate you know he's he's you know in the hole he is out doing whatever he's doing and by the testimony of the police officer he looks at the police officer and looks kind of suspicious and then runs and because he runs that that becomes an arrest of all offense that precipitates everything now now on the Upper East Side of Manhattan looking at a police officer and running is not a crime it's just not I mean if you arrested that that people would say that's ridiculous but Gilmar homes in that area of West Baltimore has been designated a high drug trafficking zone and that means that people can be arrested for things that they can't be arrested else with that is a policy choice that you know does not begin with the office and even needing sensitivity training that doesn't begin with the office of needing a body and that begins with the policy choices and said it's a drug she's not a violence issue it's not a gun issue that's not why they're doing it it's because of the drugs you know and in almost all of these cases you know when you see somebody you know dying you know in this sort of way there's usually some other issue behind it a time at the time I just find myself why was there any contact between the police officer in the person there was a guy I think it was in Cincinnati with it with uh with a brother was shot and it was the University of Cincinnati Police who pulled him over for something stupid I can't remember why was there any contact tip again what was the policy that led to the contact in the first place you know and that we have trouble talking about because see that that indict suss the policy we live in a democracy here in America policy is democratic it's been a pass by a group of people it's not just the police who you can point to anymore you know we bear culpability in that you mentioned your friend Prince Jones whose mom is here with us tonight his family and he was shot by an african-american police officer in circumstances as you just described that you that raised the question how do these two even come together right well again I mean I you know we focus on that but again I just think did that and misses the point that I think I go back to suggest you don't tell the entire story this is the second we got his home be telling a story for six weeks prince was in impressionist County the police officer this is just a comedy of tragic comedy of Eros the police officer had come in that day and he was supposed to work undercover and you know he dressed like a drug dealer okay he ran into somebody else some other officer out in PG County whose gun had got stolen by some criminal suspected the gun had been stolen by some suspected criminal the one guy recruits the guy who's dressed like a drug deal and says Mr you come with me we gonna go find this guy who I think stole the gun this is all legal by the way I mean it says this is all legal these guys are not you know in any sort of rogue operation at least you know I'm not by the judgment of the early authorities they go out looking for this guy they see a jeep that match they think matches the description to this other guy's Jeep they run the tags on the Jeep and they come back here to Pennsylvania to Mabel Jones they don't you know it never occurs to them that you know that's somebody's kid it never occurs in him maybe you know princess a you know a member of the family they think the cheapest stolen they decide to fight and there's no like like this is not a murderer that we're talking about you know this is not you know some you know sort of prolific drug pin that's not what they're investigating they follow this they follow Prince from Prince George's County which is just outside of DC through DC into Virginia one of the officers says he gets lost or something and Prince and this is by the officers testimony I don't know what happened I mean there's no there there's plenty of reason not to trust this guy's testimony but this is his testimony they somehow end up cornered somewhere he says Prince backs his car into him and he ends up you know shooting Prince to death now here's what I think about even buying that officers verse even buying is what I think about I think about myself you know driving just to see my fiance and I and I think about it you know being that late at night and I think about looking into my rearview mirror and seeing somebody intentionally dressed like a drug dealer tracking me by the officers own testimony you never produced a badge or anything and and I think about that and and even by his Testament I think I can't separate myself from that they say they were a series of decisions that were made it doesn't matter that the police officer was black I just can't imagine that if that was a jeep and it was somebody white in that Jeep that they wouldn't have called that off the entire suspicion that he must be a criminal is rooted in our skepticism of black people and a belief that he probably is a criminal anyway even though the tags don't match who I think I'm looking for the gentleman who shot Prince Jones was not prosecuted he went in fired from the police force they found out later that he had lied in all of these other cases and they had to drop the cases against the people that they had been convicted to let the cases go because of his officer they welcomed him right back to the police force I just I mean that burned me so much you know and I think like I it must have been like maybe a month before Prince died my own son was born so I got this kid with me you know who is my job to protect and I just have seen this situation where this friend of mine who was the best of us I mean just got shot down and the worst possible how does that leave you thinking about your kid how does that leave you thinking about your country about your world no justice no nothing just move on oh well sorry not even a sigh oh well take it your son is a teenager now he's 15 yeah what do you tell him about dealing with law enforcement about how to carry himself in the world I tell them be watchful I tell them be watchful you know we have not had like a single talk that's not how it went in our house we had been having many many talks you know for a long time you know I talked to him about how he walks through the neighborhood you know I talked to him about how you you know interacts with police I have always talked to him about that but I have to tell you that kind of leaves me hollow because the lesson I got and I've told him that's the lesson I got from Prince lesson I got from Tamir rice the lesson you know I got from Walter Scott the lesson I got from God is that that got nothing to do with nothing that ain't gonna save you that ain't gonna save you and when folks decide you know you are dangerous enough well not even dangerous when they feel themselves threatened and they decide to deal with you in a certain way you know it's really nothing you can say you know that that that is just the fact of it you know I fear for him you know I fear for him in a violent way and I don't again I don't want to focus on the police I don't fear for him because of the police I fear for him because we have had policies in this country that have made African American communities a lot more dangerous and a lot more violent in other communities one more question regarding police and this is a statement that you make in the book that again I'd like you to talk about you're talking about the night of 9/11 and you are on the roof of an apartment building with your wife and some friends and you're watching Manhattan just go up in flames and and you're right I could see no difference between the officer who killed Prince Jones and the police who died or the firefighters who died they were not human to me black white or whatever they were the menaces of nature they were the fire the comet the storm which could with no justification shattered my body there are those who would read that and find that harsh there are many people african-american and otherwise who would view those law enforcement officials as heroes that day and yet you say that made no difference to me um I found it harsh when I read their prints Jones had been killed I found that harsh and my sense was that the rest of the world did not you know share that feeling that was a year at the prince had died and I just I couldn't believe no one had done anything I couldn't believe like that that folks was just gonna be like mosey on keep on here and I see all of that I saw all of the commemoration for the folks who had died during 9/11 and I saw the country you know go into this this great national mourning you know fought for a crime of terrorism and I just kept thinking about and not even just about Prince but how so many folks you know how it was our lot in fact as a community to see people die as a result of a kind of terrorism that you know extends back way way back into American history and we're supposed to take that you know we just supposed to say okay and go pull your pants up keep going that's like you know how folks deal with us and so that was so angry I was just so so pissed off and so angry I I just felt cold I had no capacity at that point in time for sympathy at all that is not correct that is not right that is not a logical argument every human being you know who dies is an individual is an individual with their own loves their own you know foibles grandmothers grandfathers you know mothers fathers daughters sisters lovers whatever yeah individual humans neighbors I could I just man I couldn't see any of it at the moment though I was so you know just so angry yeah have your views too changed over time yeah they did they did um you know you you grow you get a little older I was um I guess 25 right then you get a little older you you begin to understand that saying that this person's life matters cannot in any sort of just way be said if you're gonna make it conditional you know you can't say this person's life only matters if you say this person over here its life master they're the people who you have a dispute with the people who you are angry are the people who you have beef with they can't be your standard you know see cuz that's what happens you say well I will only do this if you do this and then you make the folks you object to your standing and not that that could not that could not be my standard yeah I'd love for you to read one more passage from the book before we open the floor to the audience for your questions tonight you right at some length about your experiences at Howard at the mecca and about the yard in particular and I'd love if you would just read us a little bit of that just to give us a feel for what your experience was like there and again well I chose the part at the bottom of that page but you start wherever you like okay people say there's no hope in this book all the hope is that Howard [Laughter] as the hope in this world yeah I gotta intrude who asked you you get your own town write your own book and you come here to talk about smell y'all I know I love all HBCUs I'm joking I first witnessed this power out on the yard that communal green space in the center of the campus where the students gathered and I saw everything I knew of my black self multiplied into seemingly endless variations there were this this I do not know how to say this words see on sky Owens science science somebody out here knows I hate to do to audiobook and they had to tell me like five but you know what that's how you can tell like an autodidact cuz you don't know how to pronounce words that you haven't gotten them from other people saying them to you've only read them you know that's me okay there were the scions of Nigerian aristocrats in their business suits giving adapter ball had accused in purple windbreakers and tan timberlands there was a high yellow progeny of AME preachers debating the clerks of a saw set there were california girls turned muslim born anew and job and long skirt they were Ponzi schemers and christian cultists tabernacle fanatics and mathematical geniuses it was like listening to 100 different renditions of redemption song each in a different color and key and overlaying all of this was the history of howard itself i knew that i was literally walking in the footsteps of all the toni morrison's and Zora Neale Hurston's of all the Sterling Browns and Kenneth clocks who'd come before the mecca the vastness of black people across space-time could be experienced in a 20 minute walk across campus I saw this vastness and the students chopping it up in front of the Frederick Douglass Memorial when Muhammad Ali had addressed their fathers and mothers in defiance of the Vietnam War I saw its epic sweep and the students next to IRA Aldridge da de with Donnie Hathaway had once sung with Donald Byrd had once assembled his flock the students came out with their saxophones trumpets and drums played my favorite things or someday my prince will come some of the other students were out on the grass in front of a lane like all in pink and green chanting singing stomping clapping stepping some of them came up from Tubman quadrangle with their roommates and rope for double dutch some of them came down from Drew Hall with their caps cocked and that backpack slung with one arm then fell into gorgeous ciphers of beatbox and Ron some of the girls set by the flagpole with bell hooks and Sonia Sanchez and their straw totes some of the boys with their new yerba names beseeched these girls by citing offense for known some of them studied Russian some of them worked in bone labs they were Panamanian they were Beijing and some of them were from places I had never heard of but all of them were hot and incredible exotic even that we held from the same tribe thank you for coming I'm really glad you're reading the audiobook but my way of getting to meet you was through the interview you did with Charlie Rose and he asks you a question about the get into the conversation but the tools of writing versus the message and I guess I would love to hear you talk a little more about how just the process of writing tuffets in your life and with the message yeah well it's hard it's very very hard to write why I guess the best way to think about this is is to talk about between the world and me because you have an object lesson I had a series of experiences you know stretching back you know to the time I was a child that I couldn't citizen could not understand it I have been trying for much of my life to understand I had an incident with a friend from Howard University that I was struggling with emotionally trying to understand and that was always going on in the back of my head some way I had Howard University which I always wanted to write about in some sort of way I knew that that had been like just um an important experience for me and I am for some reason and I don't know why I don't know if it was just the time but somewhere around I guess about 2012 2013 I went back and I read James Baldwin's to fire next time and I was just stunned you know I write and I had read it the first time when I was you know probably about 19 years old i sat up and found his library and I read the whole thing in one sitting and well I knew I had read something incredible I I didn't understand what had happened actually I didn't really understand most of what was going on when I read the book with this time I like I got it I could see it and I was just blown away and I think like a lot of people talk about ball and they talk about his political insight which is there and which is true and which is real but the writing is just good god I mean you're talking as far as I'm sorry you know our finest essayist I mean right there I mean she's and to have something important to say about the world and to marry that you know to just such a fierce fierce pen you know I just thought that that was everything and when I was done I called my agent up my agent has been around for a while she's you know just been an advisor to me and I called up and I said I said I said Gloria how come no one writes like this anymore and she said you know my agent knew James mommy she said well well well Jimmy Jimmy was one of a kind I was Jimmy Jimmy did that only Jimmy could do that I said I got that I said I got that I said but what you know you think about it even just as a book package you know you don't really see people just taking you in a thin sort of book just making an argument and just you know going hard at it like that she said yeah no you don't and I said do you think somebody could do that today she said why I think you could try so I tried and that is go ahead so I tried and my first try was not very successful I sent to Tamiya he said that's okay you know you need to go write it again I wrote it again and I said goodbye he said that's a little better but that's not in and I'll try it again and I said to him he said okay I think we got something well I don't know what this book is about I don't know what's going on here and I said I don't know either but there was a paragraph dependent you know most of what I wrote is not in this book you know that's definite like when I talked about it being hard that's where it is but there was a paragraph about the body that I had written it was just one paragraph at that point I said god I think that's it I think everything should build out from here so I tried it again he said okay that's that's kind of close so I went and I printed it out and I actually have this I still have this and I printed the whole thing out and I tried to think of you know one of the techniques that that you know in a direct in New Yorker told me many many years ago was if it's not working just put everything in order just put everything in order and didn't see what happens after that it might not be right but just go from beginning to him why don't you try that and so I put everything in order that I had in the book beginning 10 I went through the whole thing marked it where it was and then I came up with a structure and I came up with what I thought every paragraph should go and I typed every paragraph in again into the computer where it was just to run it through my brain one more time to shop and shop and shop and shop and shop and then I had a book then then I finally had had it how to draft that okay this looks like it's something and you know you just kept working it you know I'm not and you know maybe ball one was like this I don't know maybe they're writers out there who I like this I don't know but I am certainly not a writer who it just comes to you know it just doesn't work like that you know it is uh that the writing is the revision over and over and over and over again and you know in the times I've taught writing classes you know I always tell people that I don't think some problem with writing is talent I think that you know not people who are born with the talent to write but what they can't do is face the horribleness of themselves they just can't you know they write something they say oh my god I'm terrible and then I said I quit because I'll never get good it's clip but in fact that's a phase that most writers I know go through and the difference between of writers and those who don't is that they can actually take it go back and edit again edit again are you dying to know what is gonna be your approach to writing Black Panthers and I asked this because I'm the author of black comics politics of race and representation I wrote it at Howard and what is your connection to comics what does gonna be your approach to writing Black Panther well if I answered the question about approach I would have to kill you I can't I can't tell you anything well here's what I can say here's what I can say so I got commissioned to write um the Black Panther for Marvel I've loved comics since I was a child I just I was a huge spider-man a huge x-men fan as a child and this was like you know some of my earliest introduction to the world of literature had a very pop culture introduction to literature what kondeh is like some sort of like pan-african dream because it is the most advanced country in the world it's in the heart of Africa it's never been conquered anything like that but I think there's like a massive contradiction at the idea of Wakanda and the contradiction is this you have the most highly educated advanced populous in the world in this country and they're ruled by a king and no one in any sort of just way has ever said anything about this so I just think somebody might say something about it that's all I can say that's my approach one of the things I really liked about the book and I think you demonstrated again very well this evening is that for someone like me who our society would classify as white I guess I was given a real sense of what it would be like to be in the shoes of someone who grew up in your area which would be classified by the society again as you've told us as African American I'm wondering if in your education at Howard and thereafter have you read writers who our society would classify as white who gave you the feeling that you were in their shoes both people that would be quite against where you're coming from and people classified as white who would be quite sympathetic and would agree with where you're coming from I appreciate the classified as white actually I really appreciate it I'm not being sarcastic of course how can you not I mean you just I mean the book starts with this quote from what dun start I mean but one of the central ideas you know from the book is from you know Saul Bellow you know and he's you know phrase I was telling the kids about this earlier today who is the Tolstoy Zulus you know which is just as straight you know sort of racist statement as a black person you you have to grapple with that when I was you know a young man at Howard University and I you know had dreams of one day writing for magazines I had to read magazines that publish to no black people you know I had to read issues of the New Republic which I assure you at that point in time definitely regularly said things that people you know we're like me you know what classifies black would not have agreed with at all I never forget to something one of the most probably you know you talk about negative inspiration or most you know example of negative inspiration you know for me as they ran an issue in in the mid-90s where they exerted the bell curve and then they they you know just ready you know I guess they'd they were qualify this is in their defense but they ran a bunch of dissents but the notion was that your intelligence is up for debate that really is it so now here I am at Howard University you know and I'm surrounded by people who would just you know blowing my head off every day and you know and here I'm picking up you know a magazine you know an instrument from the field that I you know hope that one day enter and your intelligence is up for debate you can't not you know when you're black if you're gonna be literate in any sort of way you know read people who in some profound way doubt your humanity and then you have to get past it I mean and you have to get past it in the sense that you have to take the lessons from the literature nonetheless you have to learn how to write you know from folks you know nonetheless you know that's an ignorant statement bus or Bell it does not you know excuse you from reading Saul Bellow you know I don't know what fits jokes you know attitude towards black people was I don't know what Hemingway's attitude towards black people was I know I have a problem though when I read you know how he depicts you know his heroes you know his heroes his protagonists in Africa I know that that hits me in a certain kind of way but I got to read it anyway that's just the way it is you know I'm I'm a student I I you know I don't have the option of opting out and see this is the great difference between the black world and the white world and one innocent difference between the black world in the white world is the difference between having power and not having power the people who don't have power have to learn the language of the other folks they just have to and this is not particularly black I'm sure you know from you know the perspective a woman you can make the same statement you simply don't have the option if you're going to you know I don't know even attempt to be prosperous of opting out of folks in the language you just you just don't I mean you you you have to read people who in some profound way doubt your humanity you have to learn how they speak and you have to no learn to see the good and what they say I mean this is a you know the great the Prince tones example is just a great example I have to if I'm going to develop as a writer come to some sort and if I'm gonna be you know prominent as a writer I have to come to some sort of understanding of what 9/11 was and I have to figure out some way to feel with this country felt but there are plenty of folks who are writers who are at my level who do not have to investigate and figure out how I felt about prints they don't have to do that I have to do that work and so I just it's a profound difference I don't regret that I don't lament that you know I think in some really really deep way the slave always understands the slave master in a way the slave master cannot possibly understand the slave because the slave has to just has to as a matter of you know of survival we don't have you know the option for ignorant I mean I'm in France for this year right and it is interesting to be a part of what folks would consider like the dominant tongue English so Americans can go to France and they can say do you speak English you know in the French did I get pissed off but they got a deal with they have to do it because English is the dominant tongue English is the thing and they are much much more like Lynette you know they're they're bad at it by European standards them many other countries that are better but they have to learn English you know I mean we don't have to learn French and and and seeing that and seeing how that works is fascinating you know it is um you know I try to speak my bad French with them and they look at me bizarrely but they don't look at me as actually you know you would think it's snobbery but it's more like why are you doing this like why would you want to learn this like what are you why come over here you know you could just you know stumble your way through you know just speaking you know English and that's about power I I'm a teacher in the School District of Philadelphia and I just want to thank you I actually oh thanks say a friendly crowd here that's great so I just want to thank you so much for speaking to the kids today we brought our students here they were great yeah I was sorry I got on whoever that was in the middle I'm sorry about that I was no it was like awesome classroom management right they apologize you know all them cameras out I'm so sorry [Laughter] and so in like walking out with my kids and asking them what stood out what stood out to them and all of them was that he grew up like us they said and it was a really powerful experience for them to hear you speak and to read your book and to get it signed and I think it's it really it was impactful so thanks so much for that and before coming I shared with them what you wrote about your education experience in Baltimore specifically talking about how you love some of your teachers but you never really trusted any of them or anything that they said and I'm just wondering having grown to be someone who you know you essentially learned for a living right you learn for a living you tell us what you learned is there anything that you feel like the schools could have done to engage you in that learning at an earlier age one of the big problems when I came up was that I felt like the justification for education was was corrupted at its root obviously the concept of Education I'm obviously a fan of learning the community was so afraid and so it was like get your education so they don't send you to jail get your education so you don't end up on the corner you know get into education so that you don't end up dead I mean I was like the background justification for it you know do this you know or you'll end up like this that that is not like the incentive I use for learning now that's just that that has limited motivational power there beautiful things about learning I can remember being in a French class in seventh grade and it was like why am I here like that's what I remember thinking why am I here what uses this hat I don't know any French people I know France exists theoretically some way across the ocean I'm not gonna encounter those who I don't know anything about them you know what what Eustace is have in my world and I just I don't know man had somebody said or perhaps not even said made manifest somehow the idea to Tallahassee if you learn this you can see like a world so far away from what you know here which you see in West Baltimore this this is not the world this is not you know how everybody is and listen I have more exposure than most kids I knew like I had parents who were educating more interesting and having me exposed to things but I just I couldn't connect the classroom with any broader thing you know it was not like you know learn you know geometry because this building that you see downtown was built this way and if you master this you might be able to do something cool like this one day that wasn't how it was and I can't help but reflect on that and think about how you know I started you know I started studying French about three years ago right but it was a very very practical thing to me you know I understood then at that point you know that you know it could give me interaction with a different you know part of the world with a different culture it had a there was a thing to it that was like the beautiful thing always the beautiful thing about writing like there was always a practical end to it I could look to get to my writing feel a certain way feel like I had gotten something I feel better about myself I just you know I I'm not teaching this year but you know I was at you know CUNY lash and I was at MIT two-year but for that teaching writing and I always begin especially at MIT cuz I was dealing with like scientists and engineers and I always felt like right off the bat I had to justify why he went in that class and I had to make it very very clear than what writing could do for the money you know and that that I guess will probably be my approach to education like you got to get the kid to enroll you know you can't like um enroll because I told you to enroll I mean I will lead I mean there's some kids that'll do that but I think what you get is a limited fill in the blanks kind of knowledge not a you know a love of learning which I think teachers should be in the business of cultivate when you talk about reparations we are supposing that a system that has never respected the lives of black people our dreams our aspiration what at some point in time acknowledge their responsibility and put in a financial system that would benefit the black people what's most black people think is totally unrealistic ever never happen but might not reparations or a movement for reparations evolved as white people who understand the reality of white privilege begin to interact with Africans in America war trying to rebuild their community and come together to put together systems that could empower our neighborhoods because right now if we don't control the economic wealth of our communities we don't really have communities we're just people living in neighborhoods could you see reparations revolving in that fashion well I think actually the first the first one you gave is actually correct I think that is you put it very starkly and I think that's true I hate you saying this I hate going through this um the reason why we don't have economic power you know they did a very very good reason for why we don't have economic power in our communities we have been and we continue to be deprived of the kind of opportunities that other people receive so let's just leave redlining in the past let's just leave that home the housing crisis for let's start before that the housing boom that happened in this country you know was an opportunity for many people to get access to homes and yeah you know we find in in for instance my city of Baltimore banks took advantage of the fact that african-americans you know some african-americans had some amount of savings and wealth but had not had access traditionally to the loans and so a company like Wells Fargo comes in the Baltimore like it did an explicitly targets black people for subprime no explicitly directly no you know your Kareena is not like you know your credit was definitely might not eat they the suit that later came random numbers found you balance for everything everything about the community black folks are specifically targeted for those kinds of loans specifically designed to extract wealth out of the community and then they got like I mean that's not enough you don't have the quantitative data if that's not enough I started like you know subpoena subpoena needing the files and they see like the employees the folks that are doing the loans referring to black people as my people referring to the loans as ghetto loans now the thing that makes that possible in the first place is the segregation you see you have all your targets right there everything is on your side and at the same time the same time people who live in other communities are being given opportunities to buy homes on the up-and-up and so what we've seen over the past week is the wealth gap is actually expanded the thumb of the state is on the scale for certain people and it's a big big thumb so you know III understand because I come from it you know to be honest you know I think of my dad was he'd make an argument similar to yours and it's still ongoing debate between you know us there limits to what black people can do by themselves you know we are a minority in this country and state policy you know for most of our history has been tailored to disadvantage us I don't know how you come to control the economy of your community when there are policies in place that actively present that prevent that when the tax dollars of other Americans are going to subsidize a system that actively prevent it I don't know any other community that that's done that now the common response it as folks compare us to other you know ethnic groups in this country you say well you know folks have come to this country they built up they support their own X Y Z but see that's not the whole story actually that's not the whole story again those communities are often given access to loans that we have not been given access to those you know communities do not suffer from the kind of discrimination or the kind of segregation that we suffer from and when I say sorry guys I don't just mean not you know sitting on a bus next to white people I mean the law actively being designed in such a way to put you in a position where you can be better exploited because that's that's ultimately what it is there's money on the other end of that how do we get up from under that without a change in policy and I know that's depressing you know and I know that that's not the most encouraging answer because the chances of any change in policy certainly in my lifetime towards reparations does not look good you know I was very very much it's stopped man it's really really stopped even in my son's a lifetime it's really really stark but when you're talking about a twenty to one wealth gap when you're talking about as we know african-american families that make somewhere around $100,000 which is doing pretty good in this country living in neighborhoods that are similar to white families that make $30,000 you know and I'm not pulling numbers out you know I don't know you go reads like I had all this indicates for reveries please go read it on the Atlantic website you know it's sourced in everything when you're talking about I don't want you guys you know thinking I'm standing up here just pulling numbers out my backside just throwing them at you I'm not I'm not um when you talk about that kind of social you know distance you talk about that kind of exploitation I don't know what else there is I just don't it's not a great answer it's not a satisfying answer it's not an answer that leaves you feeling you know okay we're gonna get up from under this tomorrow his wake is even even deeper for me when I think about moments of progress for african-americans in this country always behind that is the specter of violence okay enslavement in this country did not end because you know Abraham Lincoln and his allies decided you know what this slavery thing it should go away now they they felt that way they felt that way but that wasn't why it ended it ended because a radical group of secessionist in the south decided that they were going to erect an empire to protect slavery and they were crazy and they would defeat it and the result of that was the end of enslavement but along the way 600,000 Americans died and towards the end of it you know you had black people you know recruited in an army doing violence so slavery ends violently that that's what happened in this country when you think about the civil rights movement there's a tendency to focus on the protesters which is you know fine is great courage there that you see but see what I see is is the specter of great violence I see the shadow of World War 2 where you see folks you know Americans seeing what racism looks like when it's taken to its natural end and what happens out of that I see the Cold War and Bobby Kennedy not wanting to be embarrassed by the Freedom Riders I see black people in the movement who you know who were killed and so it strikes me that you know I've given you know some sort of prescription it says here is how we get out but in terms of how it happens I don't really see it happening until there's some sort of external threat that makes it necessary because that's the history that that really is the history I hate saying that I hate giving that answer I would love to outline a political program which I think you know do XY and Z and and it could work but you know as a student history I don't it was rhiness Astoria barber Tuschman out of the dance she was saying you know people it's rare that people admit their era and even rare at it states Tara it just doesn't happen unless there's some sort of interests you know people you know use are they say well look at Germany looking out you know the Germans remember we could do that we could do what the Germans do what the Germans killed 90% of the Jews who are living there that's how they got there that's why they remember and then they were defeated that's how it happened and so when you you look at American history and you try to find you know or you look in human history and you consider the case of America and you try to find some sort of wait it's within our hands for it to end I don't see it I'm sorry I'm really sorry thank you I'm really honored start off with a little bit about me I'm two years younger than you and this year I just found out my connection to Africa I found out that I'm descended from a slave named Tracy who was brought over here from what is now Cameroon and I want to ask you about your lineage how much do you know about your connection to the people who were working on the planting well um I know a little bit you know not not too much my dad's from Philadelphia you know my mom's from Baltimore I can you know trace my mother's side of family like I said over to the Eastern Shore of Maryland where my folks have been for a long time I'm less interested in this question and a lot of other people and a lot of other black people I don't know why I don't know why I feel myself to be very American and I especially feel myself to be very American now that I'm abroad it's obvious very very obvious how how how American are I in fact I just um and I don't want to you know impune in any way you know you're all search because I think each person has to decide you know whether right right right well you know I don't I don't want to impugn the importance you know but for individual people let me put it like that I don't know I guess I feel like I know more people you know and and you know I guess you know if I you know somebody did delays for me that could be interesting you know but I know where the folks were from I know where they were enslaved and I don't know why that's enough for me but it is well we could go on for a long time but please join me as we thank China hasn't coach thank you and special thanks to Sonia Sanchez for being with us tonight as well [Applause]

Channel: Author Events

Views: 7,490

Rating: 4.6036038 out of 5

Keywords: African American issues, The Atlantic, memoir, Between the World and Me, racial history

Id: CuLg2r9sp-U

Length: 77min 47sec (4667 seconds)

Published: Tue Jul 16 2019