Robert Mueller Memo On Flynn Shows Cooperation On Three Investigations | Rachel Maddow | MSNBC

is this still a normal day at the office what does that mean exactly you think that's what he's trying to do why are we learning this now is that weird why is this happening why is that why is that why is that buckle up stay with us the Rachel Maddow Show starts right now good evening Rachel you just lived my nightmare a little bit of that I have been convened and worried this was going to come out that I was live on the air but doesn't happen to you your staff had a betting pool on it I was we did and whoever won the betting pool was supposed to get tacos but you guys tacos anyway I got I got those for everybody good luck anyway because we were so stressed out I couldn't wait any more yeah it worked because I got it we get we brought the tacos we did not bring your staff any tacos will make that up to you tomorrow all right but we did bring this upon you my friend thank you well done all right so usually when I start this show at 9:00 p.m. Eastern I have a script that I have written because there are things in the news that I would like to tell you about tonight there's no script because I'm going to go through what we just learned from the special counsels office I'm gonna go through it with you basically as I am learning this this just came out within the last 30 minutes god bless Chris Hayes who was able to very Abele digest this handle it go to the I think that the the key elements of it right away bring in lots of expert guests in order to explain what this meant but we really have had this for less than a half an hour and I feel like this is the kind of document this sentencing document which has been filed by the special counsels office tonight in conjunction with the case of Michael Flynn who was Trump's national security adviser this is the type of document that is available and sort of I think readily accessible to all of us who do not have law degrees who are not law lawyers or professionals in this matter so I'm going to go through what we've just learned what we've just received from Muller's office I'll tell you how I understand it and what I think that Moeller's office is telling us was with this document as we go through it but then only after we have gone through this material we gonna bring in some experts who are taking their own look at it people who do have law degrees people who have worked in the Justice Department who've worked on criminal cases like this and some senior national security reporters who have been following the incredible case of Mike Flynn ever since it first broke so we're gonna get expert advice but first let me just show you what we just got because it really is just in all right it's dated today it's United States of America versus Michael T Flynn he's the defendant it's a government's memorandum in aid of sentencing the United States of America by and through special counsel Robert S Mulliken fully submits this memorandum in aid of sentencing defendant Michael T Flynn on December 1st 2017 the defendant pled guilty to one count of making materially false statements to the FBI as calculated by the u.s. probation office the defendants applicable total offense level is for criminal history category one resulting in an advisory guideline range meaning sentencing range of zero to six months that offense level and guideline range however do not account for a downward departure pursuant to United States Sentencing Guidelines reflecting the defendants substantial assistance to the government which the government has moved for contemporaneously so this is our first indication right at the top of the sentencing memorandum that Muller is pleased with what has gone on between his office and Mike Flynn in the past year and a couple days since Flynn first pled guilty and agreed to cooperate right up front they're saying that a downward departure from the sentencing guidelines is warranted in this case because of the substantial assistance that Flynn has provided to the government and it continues in that vein given the defendants substantial assistance and other considerations set forth below a sentence at the low end of the guideline range is appropriate and warranted a sentence at the low end of the guideline range including a sentence that does not impose a term of incarceration so Lieutenant General Mike Flynn former head of the defense intelligence agency the subject of a lot of intrigue and a lot of unanswered questions in terms of reporting about the Russia scandal the first major figure from the Trump administration to fall in conjunction with this scandal off the bat out of one year of an one year of cooperation with the special counsels office they are recommending no prison time for Mike Lin now that's of course not binding the judge can depart from that but that's what the special counsel is recommending and we get a lot more detail in this document of why here we go the nature of the offense in the defendants history and characteristics are set forth below in addition the addendum to this memo describes the defendants assistance to the government meaning what Mike Flynn told us because the addendum includes sensitive information about ongoing investigations the government is seeking to partially seal the addendum and has filed publicly a redacted version of the document that excludes the sensitive information so that's coming up in just a few pages the addendum is where the special counsel's office explains exactly how Flynn has been helpful what exactly he has given them information about and I'll show you big pieces of it that are redacted but we do get a substantial amount of information all right so this at the the the sentencing memorandum though before we get to exactly what he told the government we basically get a rundown of how the government got to Flynn in the first place and why ended up lying to them the defendants offense is serious quote as described in the statement of offense the defendant made multiple false statements to multiple Department of Justice entities on multiple occasions the first series of false statements occurred during an interview with the FBI on January 24th 2017 now for context ere January 24th 2017 is not yet one week into the brand-new Trump administration Trump was sworn in like January 20th right Friday January 20th so January 24th 2017 I think is like the first Tuesday that Trump was president Mike Flynn was already lying to the FBI the first Tuesday that Trump was president quote at the time of the interview the FBI had an open investigation into the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election including the nature of any links or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald J Trump days prior to the FBI's interview of the defendant The Washington Post had published a story alleging that Flynn had spoken with Russia's ambassador to the US on December 9th excuse me December 29th 2016 the day the US announced sanctions and other measures against Russia in response to that government's actions intended to interfere with the 2016 election so again this is right after Christmas 2016 so there's after the election we know that Donald Trump is the incoming president but Obama is still president and Obama after Christmas time right during the transition orders new sanctions against Russia to punish Russia for what they did to mess with our election on December 29th between Christmas and New Year's Mike Flynn calls the Russian ambassador according to the Washington Post and says hey hey hey don't worry about those sanctions we are gonna have a different attitude toward those sanctions don't retaliate etc The Washington Post reports that that ends up being relevant apparently to the FBI's subsequent interview of Flynn on that subject quote The Post story queried whether the defendants actions violated the Logan Act which prohibits US citizens from corresponding with a foreign government with the intent to influence the conduct of that foreign government regarding disputes with the United States subsequent to the publication of the Post article and prior to the defendants FBI interview members of the prem burs of president-elect trump's transition team publicly stated that they had spoken to the defendant and that he denied speaking to the russian ambassador about the sanctions all right so that's what the FBI is facing in the first week of the Trump administration David Ignatius is reported in The Washington Post that during the transition when the US government under President Obama was sanctioning Russia Mike Flynn called them and was like don't worry about those sanctions ignatius in that column in The Washington Post questions whether or not that's kind of illegal or at least improper Mike Flynn then a private citizen even though he was the incoming national security adviser shouldn't be messing with this dispute that the US and Russia have over Russia interfering with our election then thereafter Flynn and other people within Trump's transition team say that Flynn told them that Flynn didn't actually have those conversations so that creates a counter-intelligence worry for the FBI right if the Ignatius column is correct and those conversations did happen between Flynn and Russia then Russia knows they happened right because they were in on the calls and if those conversations did happen and Russia knows they happen but Flynn's lying about them that's a counterintelligence problem right the FBI hunters handles counterintelligence issues in the United States if the National Security Adviser the United States is telling lies about something's trying to cover something up and Russia knows the truth about it and Russia knows that he's lying about it they can lord that over him right they can potentially blackmail him with that they can threaten him to expose that that they that they will expose that thing since they know that he wants to cover it up this is a counterintelligence worry the FBI handles counterintelligence measures they want to find out if what's been reported about Flynn's behavior in the post is true given his public statements and his statements to other government officials other people in the transition that he didn't do it that's why the FBI is interested okay that quote when the FBI interviewed the defendant on January 24th about his interactions with the Russian ambassador the defendant falsely stated that he did not ask the Russian ambassador to reflate refrain from escalating the situation in response to the sanctions and he falsely disclaimed any memory of his subsequent conversation with the ambassador in which the Ambassador stated that Russia had acceded to the defendants request meaning Flynn initially spoke to the Russian ambassador and said don't escalate in response don't respond to these Obama sanctions don't worry we're gonna be different and then he has a subsequent conversation with the Russian ambassador in which the Russian ambassador says you know we didn't respond to those sanctions because you told us not to apparently Flynn lies about both of those conversations to the FBI right so if the FBI is worried about Russia having compromised when once they get these false statements from him not only is he committing another crime by lying to them about it now they realize this is a counterintelligence emergency he has been lying and Russia knows it so they can learn that over him having leverage like that hostile foreign power having leverage like that over a national security adviser that a catastrophe mmm quote in addition the defendant made false statements to the FBI about his prior interactions with the Russian government in December 2016 can sending concerning a pending UN Security Council resolution the defendants false statements to the FBI about one his contacts with the Russian government emissary to the requests he conveyed to the Russian government through that emissary and three Russia's response to those requests those were all material to the FBI's investigation into the nature of any links or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump campaign so at this point on January 24th 2017 and the eyes of the FBI Mike Flynn is three big problems number one he's a felon because he just lied to them number two he has given false statements that are material to a serious ongoing counterintelligence investigation and criminal investigation into how Russia interfered in our election so he's given false statements in conjunction with an ongoing investigation he's lied to investigators and he himself is a huge counterintelligence and national security risk because he's compromised that's already in place while Mike Flynn is getting his drapes measured for his new desk right this is the first Tuesday that Trump's in office so that's the first set of Lies January 24th the defendant made a second series of false statements false statements to the DOJ concerning his contacts with the Republic of Turkey specifically on March 7th 2017 so this is after he's out of the Trump administration but he's so he's been fired by or resigned at this point in mid-february he's out he's now talking to the invested to investigators on March 7th Flynn made materially false statements in multiple documents that he filed pursuant to the foreign agents Registration Act pertaining to a project he and his company had performed for the principal benefit of the Republic of Turkey in those filings Flynn disclosed that he and his company began work on the turkey project in August 2016 soon after a coup was attempted in Turkey ultimately the project lasted approximately three months so August September October may be November and the defendant and his company were paid just over half a million dollars for their work the fara filings omitted the material that officials from the republic of turkey provided supervision and direction over the turkey project at the time Flynn was a national security adviser and surrogate for the Trump campaign who will pined publicly on foreign policy and national security issues the defendants business relationship with the Republic of Turkey was thus exactly the type of information Farrah was designed to ensure was within the public sphere the purpose of ferret is to ensure the US government and the United States people are informed of the identity of foreign entities in this case a foreign government behind information or propaganda being used to influence public opinion policy and laws so they're saying that when Flynn retro actively filed as a foreign agent who had been representing the government of Turkey during the campaign he omitted material facts from that filing and the government has over the course of the Russian investigation become aggressive on this issue of fair of the foreign agent Registration Act this is them sort of pounding their chest a little bit saying this is what fara is for so we don't have people acting in the political sphere or in government who are acting on behalf of a foreign entity without the American public knowing that a foreign entity is at work here quote and elect on Election Day in 2016 Flynn published an op-ed for the turkey project that called for the removal of a Turkish cleric residing in the United States and the president of Turkey blamed for the failed coup in that country the clerics responsibility for the coup attempt was a subject of great debate and Flynn's op-ed about the clerics role was valuable to Turkey's efforts to shape public opinion Flynn falsely represented in his fara filings that the op-ed was written at his own initiative as opposed to for the turkey project and for the Republic of Turkey he thus again deprived the public of the very transparency fara was designed to ensure Flynn's false statements impeded the ability of the public to learn about turkeys efforts to influence public opinion about the failed coup including its efforts to effectuate the removal of a person legally residing in the United States now this is materially relevant to what Flynn did it also explains one of those oddball stories about Flynn which has been sort of hanging out there ever since he left the Trump administration which was why did he write bananas op-ed in the hill on election day that called for this turkish cleric to be sent back to Turkey where they would definitely tar and feather him it also of course relates to current news because of recent reports that the Trump administration is once again negotiating to maybe try to send that cleric back to Turkey where they will still tar and feather him that is something that Mike Flynn was being secretly paid to advocate during the campaign including on Election Day the Trump administration has since pursued that same super dodgy aim of of its own accord all right here's the end of this part of the flame we're filing history and characteristics of the defendant the defendants history and characteristics present both mitigating and aggravating circumstances as detailed in the pre-sentence investigation report the defendants military and public service are exemplary Flynn served in the military for over 33 years including five years of combat duty he led the Defense Intelligence Agency he retired as a three-star Lieutenant General the defendants record of military and public service distinguish him from every other person who has been charged as part of the special counsels Office investigation however senior government leaders should be held to the highest standards the defendants extensive government service should have made him particularly aware of the harm caused by providing false information to the government as well as the rules governing work performed on behalf of a foreign government the defendant deserves credit for accepting responsibility in a timely fashion and substantially assisting the government as described in the addendum shortly after the special counsel's office reached out to Flynn to seek his cooperation he accepted responsibility for his unlawful conduct and began cooperating with the government in conclusion for the foregoing reasons as well as those contained in the government's addendum and motion for downward departure the government submits that a sentence at the low end of the advisory guideline range is appropriate and warranted and again given the guideline range here with the special counsel's office explicitly is asking for is no jail time for Mike Flynn it's signed on behalf of the special counsels office well it's signed its Moeller's name is first brandon van graff who's a veteran counter espionage prosecutor and zana Mahmud who is a got an incredible record in terms of counterterrorism prosecutions those are they're signed on as senior assistant special counsels under Miller's name now we get to second document that was just filed this is the addendum to that which spells out how exactly Flynn helped and I'm just gonna give you a little spoiler alert here by the time we're on page two it already looks like this NBC News that reported last night before we got any of this stuff that while we were expecting this Flynn memo today because the deadline for the government getting this in was midnight tonight with NBC reported that at least some of this document about Flynn about his crimes about how helpful he's been about his cooperation about what the special counsel's office thinks he should get in terms of punishment NBC reported last night that at least some of it would be public facing it wouldn't all be filed under seal filed under seal but even the parts that aren't blacked out are really interesting all right mm-hmm United States District Court for the District of Columbia again the case is United States of America versus Michael Flynn this is the addendum to the government's memorandum in aid of sentencing this addendum to the government's memorandum in aid of sentencing describes the significance and usefulness of defendant Michael T Flynn's assistance to the government and the timeliness of that assistance as described herein the defendants assistance to the government was substantial and merits consideration at sentencing I will say one of the things that I'm going to want to sort of check with our expert guests as we go on over the course of this hour is this consistent emphasis by the special counsels office on timeliness both in the sentencing memorandum and what you'll see here in this detailed exposition of how exactly Michael Flynn helps the special counsels office goes out of its way to say Flynn didn't delay he helped right away so I mean big picture here we're getting Flynn with no recommendation of jail time in terms of how that relates to other witnesses and other people who are considering whether or not they're going to cooperate this is obviously a message that if you do cooperate well fully and expansively with the special counsel and you don't hold things back and they think you're telling the truth you can get 0 jail time doesn't that sound good but they also were repeatedly going out of their way to emphasize the fact that one of the things they like so much about Flynn is that he told the truth right away he accepted responsibility and he told them to despite his crimes which they say were serious he told them right away what they needed to know maybe that's boilerplate but it does seem like it sort of sticks out to me in terms of the way they're talking about what they like about Flynn here all right mm-hmm point one significance and usefulness of the defendants assistance the defendant has assisted with several ongoing investigations a criminal investigation redacted comma then secondly the special counsel office special counsels offices investigation concerning any links or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald J Trump comma redacted now what that makes it look like is that Mike Flynn has helped with three different ongoing investigations one of them is a criminal investigation that gets listed before Robert Muller ever gets mentioned before the special counsel's office investigation even gets mentioned here there's some other criminal investigation that Flynn helped with too that we don't know anything about other than the fact that it's a criminal investigation and then after we get the SPECIAL counsel's office investigation into links or coordination between the Russian government and Trump there's also some other investigation too that we get no information about presumably it could be some subsidiary or related investigation from the special counsels office or it could be something totally separate but it looks like Flynn is helping with three things quote as part of his assistance with these investigations the defendant participated in 19 interviews with the special counsels office or attorneys from other Department of Justice offices he provided documents and communications redacted while this addendum seems to seeks to provide a comprehensive description of the benefit the government has thus far obtained from Flynn's substantial assistance some of that benefit may not be fully realized at this time because the investigations in which he has provided assistance are ongoing the defendant and the government agreed that sentencing at this time is nonetheless appropriate because sufficient information is available to allow the court to determine the import of the defendants assistance to his sentence okay so what that's about is that in general and again not a lawyer but I talked to lawyers on TV who fact-check me in general when you've got a cooperating witness the and again we've seen slightly different variations on this with different witnesses but in general the way we have seen this happen is that the witness pleads guilty the witness is advised at that point of what he or she could potentially face in terms of punishment but then the witness if the witness is agreeing to cooperate with prosecutors prosecutors then basically promise to tell the court how well that witness does as a cooperator how completely they cooperate whether they tell the truth apparently how timely they are in their in their cooperation with prosecutors and then the the judge in the the judge in the case of this person who has pled guilty then factors in that cooperation when they decide whether or not the person is going to be sentenced to jail or how much time they're gonna get if at all in this case they're saying listen the cooperation here has been substantial we like the way that Flynn has dealt with us this is not over though they've delayed his sentencing like four or five times at this point they're finally ready to go ahead with this sentencing and essentially that I'm getting on with his life but they're saying that the things that he helps them with he helped them with our ongoing investigations that itself is interesting the decision to not make Flynn wait for his sentencing wait for the end of his involvement here until the end of these investigations to let him go through while they're still ongoing that itself seems like sort of a mercy an act of mercy from the special counsels office but again we'll get expert advice on that as we go forward so then we get point by point a list from the special counsels office of how exactly Flint has helped these three different investigations that appear to be laid out in the first part of this memo the first one is the criminal investigation that we know nothing about and we get nothing on that it's point a comes even before the prosecutors talk about how he helped the special counsels office but in redacted criminal investigation quote the defendant has provided substantial assistance in a criminal investigation and then it's basically a full page of redacted lines and we get no other information about how Flynn has helped in that investigation or what exactly it is so we can skip ahead to be the special counsel's office investigation the defendant has also assisted with the special counsel office investigation concerning links or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump campaign the defendant assisted the special counsels investigation on a range of issues including interactions between individuals in the presidential transition team in Russia comma redacted period a non-exhaustive summary of the relevant information the defendant provided is described below to aid the courts assessment of the defendants assistance so even when it comes to the special counsel's office investigation specifically into the contacts between the Russian government and the Trump campaign some of that we get described here at least in general terms but some of that is apparently part of an ongoing investigation that is still blacked out but here's here's the detail that they give number one interactions between the Trump transition team in Russia Flynn provided first-hand information about the content and context of interactions between the transition team and Russian government officials for example after the election Flynn communicated with the Russian ambassador to the US as a representative of the transition team on to sensitive matters a UN Security Council vote on a resolution calling for Israel to cease settlement activities in Palestinian territory and the Obama administration's imposition of sanctions and other measures on Russia for interfering in the 2016 election several senior members of the transition team publicly repeated false information conveyed to them by the defendant Michael Flynn about communications between him and the Russian ambassador regarding the sanctions redacted redacted redacted redacted okay the defendant also provided useful information concerning redacted redacted reacted more than a full page of read actions at this point so Flynn helped with three different things one of them is the special counsel's office investigation into contacts between Trump and Russia some of that is redacted one of them is a criminal investigation all of which is redacted the other one we don't even know if it's a criminal investigation because that whole thing is redacted nevertheless special counsels office thinks the amount of cooperation they are able to describe to the court and again none of these things that are redacted or redacted to the judge the judge knows what's behind all these black bars it's just us the public that don't know this the special counsels office believes that it can convey enough information to the judge about what Flynn has done with them that Flynn should be allowed to go forth and be sentenced and again the recommendation is zero prison time or as little as zero prison time so there's still a lot of us there's still a lot of us being in the dark here but the in in general it's positive and before they wrap up here the last thing they say is it once again going back to the timeliness of the defendants assistance it's the last point the usefulness of the defendants assistance is connected to its timeliness Flynn began providing information to the government not long after the government first sought his cooperation his early cooperation was particularly valuable because he was one of the few people with long-term and first-hand insight regarding events and issues under investigation by the special counsel additionally Flint's decision to plead guilty and cooperate likely affected the decisions of related firsthand witnesses to be forthcoming with the special counsel and cooperate meaning when Flynn flipped that made other people flip to but then after that it's one big long redacted line and then it is respectfully submitted Robert Mulder that's what we've been waiting for in terms of the government's forward public facing sentencing document sentencing recommendations when it comes to Flynn the amount of information here that is redacted the way that it is redacted indicating that he's cooperating in three different investigations but we're only and I have to know part of one of them is fascinating but some of the the legal points here are things for which I need some expert advice boy do I have a good expert joining us first here tonight is Chuck Rosenberg he's former US attorney is a former senior FBI official Chuck it's great to have you with us tonight thank you so much for looking at these documents as soon as they've come out and for helping us understand what's here oh my pleasure Rachel thank you for having me I am told that in the addendum in particular you think that there is there there's something that that jumps out for you sort of late in the addendum and that piece that I just read can you talk to us about that yeah I sure can it's that last paragraph that you cited Rachel on page five of the addendum it talks about a couple of things that are really critical that mr. Flynn's cooperation was early timely that it was first hand and that it was a long term and that in fact as you noted it caused other people also to cooperate so you asked earlier and it's a great question why is what does timely matter so much and you see it here and the government tells you precisely why it matters because other people followed his lead other people came forth by the way Rachel in that same addendum where it notes that he was interviewed 19 times it also says that he provided documents and communications that's also critical so it's not just the word of Michael Flynn upon which they are relying he has stuff to corroborate what he said documents and communications and that's also critical to prosecutors the sooner they get that the quicker they can build a case and rope in other people now Chuck you mentioned when you're describing what's interesting to you about that part of the addendum that then describing his cooperation as firsthand his early cooperation was particularly vulnerable excuse me valuable because he was one of the few people with long-term and first-hand insight regarding events and issues under investigation by the special counsel Oh what's interesting to you about that first-hand reference there and what that means in this context to quote from Hamilton he was in the room where it happened he heard it he saw it he remembered it and he told it and apparently Rachel II told it truthfully but also so this is an ordinary sentencing memorandum in an extraordinary investigation ordinary in the sense that every time somebody is sentenced in federal district court the government files a sentencing memorandum laying out what he or she did and what consideration they ought to get from the court at sentencing what makes this unusual is that the government goes out of its way to say that even though this investigation is not complete look at all those redactions we trust this guy he was early he was first hand he was honest he was forthright he met with us 19 times and we're comfortable with this guy not going to jail that timeliness that firsthand information that first-hand information that puts the government in the room where it happened is what's so crucial here and when they use the term insight I think of insight as sort of a non legal term I think of it as sort of a woolly term meaning he's essentially helping them form contextual appraisals of the meaning of information it almost makes him sound like he was sort of consulting with them in terms of how they should approach various evidence that they collect in the course of their investigation is that a shall we see that as a legal term of art here is that a sort of thing providing insight giving us understanding of the the information that we were going to accumulate here is that typical of sentencing memorandum as well it's a very savvy point you don't often see that word per se in a sentencing memorandum what does happen during all of those debriefs those 19 meetings that are referenced here is that people will ask I'm sorry agents and prosecutors will ask Flynn for context who was there what did it mean sometimes you'll see this in mob cases or drug cases where the language used isn't automatically a parent to other people and so sometimes people talk in code or sometimes they have acronyms sometimes the fact that someone is in the room or not in the room has some import to the participants that it would not to you and me and so he's giving them insight he's giving them context he's giving them fiber if you will and that makes him also particularly valuable considering it was early first hand long term and forthright and the phrase that they use right up at the top in the in the sentencing memorandum not in the addendum where they spell out how he helped them is the defendant substantial assistance to the government are those is that a trigger word is that the sort of is is that a specific term that the judge is looking for in terms of what sort of impact this should have on Flynn sentence substantial assistance yes in fact unlike in sight substantial assistance is a term of art under the United States federal sentencing guidelines Rachael the government can move for a downward departure below the recommended guidelines range if a defendant provides quote unquote substantial assistance now here of course the guideline range is 0 to 6 months you can't really go much lower than that but they nevertheless want to flag for the sentencing judge judge Emmett Sullivan that his cooperation rises to that level and federal judges recognize that term substantial assistance and they know that the government only gives it to those who provide extraordinary assistance I have one last question for you chuck and again I really appreciate I know how careful you are in in everything all of your working and everything you say so reviewing this quickly and giving us your top line your top line take on it and all your help are in order to help us through it I realize there's a lot to ask of you tonight so I am thank you my pleasure but I raised the question while I was going through the document as to whether or not this might indicate a sort of merciful attitude toward Flynn on the part of the special counsels office and I raised that specifically because of all of these redactions the special counsel's office explains in writing in plain language that the reason all this stuff is blacked out and redacted in this in this filing is because a lot of the stuff that he helped them with turned into ongoing investigation stuff that isn't wrapped up yet and it's my impression just as a lay observer of these things that co-operators usually expect to have to wait until the case is over before they find out how valuable their cooperation was whether it resulted in prosecutions and convictions of other people and therefore how the judge should weigh it when considering it against the gravity of their crimes by allowing the sentencing to go forward while so many of the things that that flynn helped them with are still ongoing and still aren't settled matters and still aren't being disclosed to the public even even a little should we essentially see that as generosity toward Flint yeah I think that's a fair read Rachel here's why the government could have asked the judge to keep postponing sentencing the judge I presume would have done so and most defendants have to wait until their cooperation is complete in order to get this consideration a couple of things might be going on here though number one remember his guidelines the guideline recommendation was still zero to six months so he was perhaps not likely to go to jail no matter what even though the judge could sentence him to a period of incarceration and second I presume that they've had him testify in the grand jury meaning and we've discussed this before they've locked in his testimony under oath so if they need him at a trial down the road they still have some leverage over him they have that locked down sworn grand jury testimony to make sure he doesn't sort of stray from the script that he has already provided to them so is it an act of mercy I think that's the fair read but does the government have what it needs absolutely they seem quite satisfied here Chuck Rosenberg former US Attorney former senior FBI and Justice Department official Thank You Chuck really really appreciate your being here my pleasure next I want to bring into the conversation Carol Lennox national reporter with Washington Post she has been the top byline on a lot of the big scoops in this scandal thus far and along with all of us she's been absorbing this information about the Michael Flynn part of this case as we have received it tonight Carol thank you so much for being here glad to be here sorry it's a little bit scattered here well you know it is here - usually I write things that I say on TV but not tonight I understand let me ask you first of all just for your your top-line impression of how Flynn seems to be fitting in to the overall Russia scandal - the overall investigation and how this document has advanced our understanding of that tonight well I think there were three big striking moments in this filing for me one it didn't advance our knowledge a heck of a lot I don't mean it that to downplay the news value of this there is news value but one of the most striking things is how many things Muller kept shrouded in secrecy how many places you're reading that Flynn provided help in a criminal investigation we aren't really sure about and it's entirely redacted how many ways in which he helped the Special Counsel investigation on matters that are also redacted how much of the detail of what Flynn told Muller about Trump transition officials senior officials and contacts with Russia that are also redacted so that's the first biggie is a lot of this stuff is still under wraps and you've got to wonder why is it that Bob Muller wants to keep it under wraps right now and only share it with the sentencing judge what is the issue there another striking thing that I saw in this in this item was how much Muller values the firsthand first-person knowledge of Michael Flynn a person who shocked Justice Department officials in early January by lying to FBI agents about something he had to know was recorded a conversation with the Russian ambassador during the transition period but in this fight Muller says look he's been critical important early witness who probably according to Muller's filing probably persuaded other transition officials and Trump campaign officials to be more forthcoming and cooperative with the probe in other words more honest Carroll when I read the government's that the special counsels sort of recitation of the seriousness of Flynn's crime and the even as they're saying you know we basically think he shouldn't get any prison time and he's been super helpful to us when they're laying out what he did wrong when they talk about that first time in January 2017 when he lied to them it seems to me that the FBI with its counterintelligence mission at that point had had a few different problems with Mike Flynn right off the bat in the first week that Trump was in office number one he was lying to them about something that they definitely know because as you say that conversation with the Russian government he had to have known would have been recorded we have since learned through open source reporting that it likely there were intercepts if not recordings then there were transcripts of that conversation the government knew what happened there and so they knew that he was lying lying to the FBI is a crime so they've got a criminal working as the national security adviser it's also a problem as we learn in this document tonight that the lies he told there were material to what was then the open FBI investigation into Russia's interference in the election in their contacts with the Trump campaign so he was lying to them in conjunction with a case in a material that was in a way that was material to what was being investigated but the third problem had to have been a counterintelligence problem itself because he was telling lies publicly about something that Russia knew the truth of he had been in contact with the Russian government the Russian government knew that when he started covering that up and telling lies about that publicly to other administration officials and also to the FBI Russia then had something on him they could use that as leverage threatened to out him threatened to blackmail and use it to pressure him as national security adviser which of course is very dangerous and I wonder just from your reporting your understanding of how this all unfolded with Flynn what sort of alarms that would set off within the FBI what else that would activate in terms of the US government to try to neutralize or mitigate the harm caused by somebody who was that many urgent problems all at once the first week of a new presidency you know you summarized that so well Rachel and what's I've interviewed several of the people who were on both sides of this exchange and several of them have testified publicly so there's lots out there that you can understand about both sides of this experience Flynn was lying about something two FBI agents that he had to have known they would discover was a lie why in the world Justice Department officials asked themselves back at headquarters why in the world had he not been truthful what was so important that he couldn't share this piece of information and that's still today a really important mystery that's not been entirely unlocked as well you had the president getting alerted by his White House Counsel dawn McGann remember Sally Yates after the FBI interview that doesn't go very well for Flynn and she describes it Sally Yates decides it's so important she has to come over to the White House basically two days later she tells Don McCain Trump's White House Counsel hey look there's a problem your guy is compromised I'm not the person to decide for you what to do but this is an issue he's vulnerable the the the Russians know this and by the way he's lying McGann takes this immediately to Donald Trump Donald Trump is four days into being president and his instant reaction is I don't see what the big problem is and what in the world are these people doing from the Obama Justice Department coming over questioning my you know my head's my choices of senior advisors so on both sides there's huge distrust and and at least on the Justice side alarm on the president's side annoyance yeah but they're but they're they're very very worried about this and you know now Muller obviously has a lot of cooperation from Flynn and he now has no doubt explained to him why it was so important to lie on January 24th and eventually become the shortest serving national security advisor in history Carroll lenok reporter for The Washington Post thank you so much for joining us tonight I know again it is putting a lot of pressure on you and it's not usually the way you work to have to turn something around like this instantly so I'm all the more thankful that you're able to join us on such short notice Thank You Carol thank you all right I want to now bring into the conversation barb McQuaid former US Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan Barbara's been absorbing this information just as we have this evening barb thank you so much for for staying in the studio and for helping us through this I really appreciate my pleasure Rachel so let me ask your your top-line view of this I mean you've seen a lot of sentencing documents a lot of sentencing documents pursuant to cooperation agreements does this strike you as unusual in any ways there's a typical sort of sentencing document what seems important about the overall Russia investigation here now that we've got this new information about Flynn well it is typical other than the redactions you after waiting all day eating our popcorn waiting to see the big reveal to get all of those redactions is somewhat unsatisfying but I think there are a couple things that are disclosed even in the heavily redacted form that we see I mean number one the fact that they met 19 times that is a huge number of meetings and suggests that Michael Flynn has shared an awful lot of information with a special counsel the other thing is you pointed out by going through the redactions in the addendum it looks like there's not just one but three separate investigations that Michael Flynn has cooperated about the Special Counsel investigation and then one that's partly redacted but says criminal investigation and then a third that's completely read acted and if you say Criminal Investigation is that in contrast with something else that's in that third investigation is it not criminal is it something else is it a civil investigation or is it a counterintelligence investigation and so that raises some additional questions about are there other matters that Robert molar is looking at because remember his mandate was to investigate links between Russia and the Trump campaign and the second part of that was and other matters that might arise in the course of the investigation so have they found other things you know does this involve things happening in the Seychelles Islands or with Saudi Arabia or the things that Jorge Nader has been talking about conversations with Eric Prince and foreign leaders and so it makes me wonder what other things Mike Flynn might be talking with them about right and I'm reading that exactly the same way that you are and of course I'm you know you try to put these things in context and you think well all right given how long Flynn lasted in the Trump administration as Carolina was just saying the shortest-lived ever national security advisor didn't even make it a month it can't be that he's a great source of information for things that happened during the administration he can really only be contributing material materially substantial information for the most part about the campaign anything that might have happened before the campaign conceivably and during the transition but also what would the special counsels office the prosecutors in the special counsel's office list before their own investigation if they're making a list of three things on which he's helping number the first thing they list is a criminal investigation a redacted redacted redacted the second thing they list is their own investigation the special counsel's office investigation and then the third thing as you mentioned we it comes after at Oxford comma we know there's something else there they don't even say as much as just a criminal investigation as they do in the first item I don't know how much to read into the how - how much - finally parse these things I guess we'll only find out if these redactions are ever made public do you think these reductions will ever be undone we'll be allowed to say this full document I do I think the day will come when it gets unsealed typically documents are sealed only as long as necessary to protect the integrity of an investigation so at some point these investigations will be over either because charges will be filed or because they decide to decline to bring them and so I think the day will come some day I don't know when when we'll see what is behind these black bars on that point barb there's the issue of right now how the special counsel's office fits into the Justice Department and what's going on with the acting Attorney General Matt Whittaker who president Trump has installed there after having fired Attorney General Jeff sessions we have presumed that the acting Attorney General mr. Whittaker has been you know back channeling information to the White House and terms of his access to information about the molar investigation that is a presumption on our part it's based on the change in language that the president has used since Whittaker has been in there claiming that he now has information about the inner workings of the molar investigation and other things like that but aside from those presumptions and suppositions that we have admittedly been making would you expect the way the Justice Department works the way the special counsels office works and those regulations governing that would you expect that Whittaker would have seen the full unredacted documents here and if there is particularly sensitive or damning information there that there's a possibility that Whittaker might back-channel that stuff to the White House I'd say yes and yes I think that he certainly would have access to seeing the unredacted version of this I don't know whether he has availed himself of that you know that we've heard no reporting that he has been recused from this case and so I imagine he is not I would imagine that rod Rosen Stein is still the one who is interacting with Robert Muller most frequently just because of the nature of the way the Justice Department works the Attorney General is usually the outward facing person and the Deputy Attorney General is the one who actually supervises the high level cases but in light of how incredibly important this case is and the unusual nature of Whitaker's appointment leapfrogging rod Rosenstein to get this job I would think he would be immensely curious about what's being filed he has a right to see it even has a right to stop it if he thinks that it is completely inappropriate or contrary to Justice Department policies he apparently didn't think that was the case here but if he wanted to I think he could go tell President Trump exactly what's behind those redactions you know if you were to do it with some corrupt intent with some effort to impede the investigation or to get other people to change their stories to coordinate with what's here I think that could be problematic and some obstruction of justice but I think that he could probably find out what's in here and share it with the president Barbara McQuade former US Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan thank you for being here tonight barb invaluable to have you here for us Thanks thanks so much Rachel all right much more to get to here tonight again the big news is that within the last hour or so the Justice Department the special counsel's office has released it sentencing memorandum saying essentially that they want the judge to give Mike Flynn as little as zero time in prison and that he has provided substantial assistance to the government in multiple ongoing investigations if you want to know about that substantial assistance you will have to wait until the judge unseals those portions of these filings because there's page after page after page that looked like this spelling out what investigations Mike Flynn is helping with and how exactly he has helped stay with us we'll be right back the topics we cover on MSNBC every day they're driven by big ideas big themes huge societal changes and that's what we talk about on our new podcast it's called why is this happening why is this happening with Chris Hayes new episodes every Tuesday hey there I'm Chris Hayes from MSNBC thanks for watching MSNBC on YouTube if you want to keep up to date with the videos we're putting out you can click subscribe just below me or click over on this list to see lots of other great videos

Channel: MSNBC

Views: 6,492,311

Keywords: Criminal Justice, Best of last night, Donald Trump, Robert Mueller, Rachel Maddow, The Rachel Maddow Show, Rachel Maddow Show, Maddow, TRMS, MSNBC, MSNBC news, MSNBC live, MSNBC TV, news, breaking news, current events, US news, politics, politics news, political news, elections, maddow live, rachel maddow msnbc, Robert Mueller Memo, Michael Flynn, Three Investigations, Trump national security adviser, national security adviser, robert mueller investigation

Id: fmeeiA3pMuQ

Length: 52min 0sec (3120 seconds)

Published: Wed Dec 05 2018