Richard Dawkins on The Big Questions - 7th April 2008

[Music] [Music] [Applause] good morning good to see you I'm Nikki Campbell welcome to the big questions on this snowy Sunday now this week uh a House of Lords committee said Britain's economy has gained very little from immigration but there's more to immigration in pounds and Pence there the moral and family values that immigrants bring yesterday Mr Justice CID said our Urban Family Life is In meltdown our first big question can immigrants make Britain more moral now you may disagree with what I say but will you defend to the death my right to say it a Dutch film suggesting the Quran inspires violence was withdrawn from a British website this week because of death threats from Muslims our next big question do we have the right to offend and our last big question of the current series one that is fundamental to many Believers does the Devil exist we're back at West London Academy in North with a local audience who've made it here through the snow and the cold on this um spring morning and we have on our panel in the Posh seats uh a distinguished Gathering the right Reverend Tom Butler Bishop of suuk writer and broadcaster Christina adoni Costa prizewinning novelist Allison Kennedy and Rabbi yack shocket from the mil Hill synagogue and our special guest is the scientist and untiring champion of atheism some people reckon he's the devil Professor Richard [Applause] Dawkins for centuries Britain has has become a new home to people fleeing religious persecution like the hugos or the Jews people fleeing political oppression uh many who've come here just to make a better life for themselves and their families they've also brought their religious ideas and their own moral values which uh may be just the thing to rescue us from our social problems at the start of this series of the big questions a poll conducted for us by comres found that 83% of the 1,000 adults survey believe that Britain is in moral decline can immigration make Britain more moral Christina Ron I mean this judge was talking about the cancer of society that is family breakdown and what is needed maybe is a sort of injection of values he didn't say this but what do you think about the contention that maybe some of the moral values the family values brought here by immigrants can save us from ourselves I think that's that's a very very interesting Theory and I think absolutely just so you know we've been taught uh since 2007 that since July 2007 that the Immigrant Community is basically a breeding ground for terrorism actually I think it's a breeding ground for fantastic value system and when you look at where these immigrants come from they usually come from well they usually come from cultures where self-sacrifice is still big and although they come here for self-fulfillment they manage to retain that sense of you know children come first fam is all important um me myself and I is not the at the very center marriage mother believe in marriage yes yes but it's not just marriage it's about discipline it's about hard work you know they they come from Poland from Bangladesh from uh from Ghana and and they still really believe that although they must make it they want to keep their values intact Douglas Murray from the center for social cohesion this is what we need well um Le good to be talking about immigration not just in terms of economics which is what tends to happen there's another thing though is that whatever um Christina says about the impact of and the feelings of new immigrants I have to say I tend to be slightly worried when I hear people like the judges talking about uh about this because I sense I think a lot of other people do that what we're talking about are the most reactionary uh views of all kinds of religions the most reactionary opinions about the family things actually that people in this country are generally quite tolerant about such and well I mean things like marriage things like homosexuality which uh when a judge nods to uh to the family values of for instance Islam in this country he can do so but he's also nodding to a very reactionary religion in relation to say homosexuality Miriam we bring you in here I think it's an appropriate point a convert uh when you hear that what about the the fears that many have about the the backwards uh social attitudes of for example um Islam that people point to the attitude to women the attitude to gays Force marriages all those things that concern people well I certainly think that um you know one has to distinguish between you know the faith as an ideal and how it's practic within the community and I'm not the first person to say that but um you know obviously there are reactionary attitudes and I think that um to sort of infer that immigrants are bringing in these sort of alien negative uh values into British Society is to sometime somehow miss out on the fact that actually what British values are are the interaction between outside influences and the ideas and beliefs which have which currently Prevail and in fact that that brings a richness to our society I mean nobody's denying the richness of against bring to society but it's also true to say that uh just because um because we say oh well this is your point of view uh you're entitled to it that's fine in a tolerant and open Society you should have that but it becomes very difficult and I think this occurs particularly with homosexuality in the west it is particularly difficult when you get to a stage where you say that you have to be tolerant of people who are intolerant to you well that is something that you have to reconcile as a society in which you have different perspectives these are not no longer out outside perspectives what you need to understand and and what I think is kind of an odd way of conceptualizing this debate is these ideas coming from the outside you have people within the society that may not approve of H ideas I suppose Miriam that are that could possibly bolster some indigenous ideas already here you people who maybe feel they are social conservatives but are being marginalized in our society they may find Sucker from these people coming in Poss possibly or perhaps these are issues that we as a British Society need to rethink maybe these are ideas that we need to thrash out and decide where we stand on these are British attitudes I don't really like the idea of conceptualizing them as ideas that come from the outside there are people within Britain that are British that do hold these ideas and to Simply brush them away as the ideas of a minority from the outside is to not really give credit to them thought pet both both of you I I see very very clean to come in I don't know which which you to choose first Peter first go on Peter T I think we should be very careful about generalizing um immigrant communities come with lots of different backgrounds different IDE IDE different influences some cultural some religious is there a danger of of a of a step back to to a place that we've escaped from socially with some of some of the values that are being brought in I think that is true among some immigrants you know look at look at the Polish immigrants who are coming here a lot of them bring a very very conservative Hardline Catholicism which is very anti-woman very anti-gay um we see other sections of immigrant communities who condone or endorse female genital mutilation Force marriages domestic violence because I think men should rule the house and are Justified to abuse their women if they're disobedient we also see honor killing of women and gay people in this country in small numbers but nevertheless in unacceptable numbers amongst some sections of immig community so I think there are some bad attitudes but many immigrants do bring positive values and do enrich our society just a bad atud then I'll come to Betty and Keith I've got you in mind don't worry um Miriam yeah no I think you obviously you're going to have a hard time finding people that condone honor killings that condone female female genital mutilation etc etc I mean we can bring out all of these sort of pretty marginal you know experiences that people have but at the end of the day you know these are minority experiences and the vast majority of people are not these are not the issues that affect us you know that affect Muslims and other minorities within this country but I don't think they are as little as that the forc marriage uh the female genital mutilation honor killings the problem is because they are regarded as culturally sensitive um even though we've got laws against them they're not being properly pleased that the social co workers the police they're frightened to touch there has not been one FGM prosecution in this country aren we in danger rather rather accentuating the negative uh where goodness how much more negative can you get for the poor people that are affected that we're actually betraying we're not looking after them it's a shocking thing that's happening absolutely nobody is defending these things you bring to me a voice that's defending female genital mutilation in this country and I will accept that view okay okay py are we a moral decline you're a charismatic in evangelica are we in a sort of moral decine that leads an infusion of morals from elsewhere no um England uh from the onset where the ones that went to different countries um they went out and they brought um good things to countries that didn't even know about electricity they went into poor countries Africa many different educated people now because of Wars because of um uh persecution different people are coming in here and instead of us collaborating people want to actually impose their ideas in this country are we what about the attitudes to gays for example that I personally don't think homosexuality is a good thing that's my belief being a Christian I don't think two men should sleep together or two women to sleep together and I stand by that what I believe in is uh obviously coming here collaborating before gay people uh came out and women this country did not tolerate that was that a better time I believe it it was a better time obviously we need to move on we need to move on to uh Embrace change and um obviously immigrants coming in we taught by the British then when you came in but from the Bible that these things are not right it's not good the moral mix iset I would defend defend Betty's right to hold those views they're her conscientious views where I would object is the way in which people like Betty some people like Betty seek to impose her morality on everyone else through the law of the land so they want to make their morality the legal morality that binds us all let me answer that one second bet first C and Craig and then we'll the panel I do strongly believe you would not be sitting here if you didn't have a mother a man and a woman you were given there to B a woman the family together and so by then I do believe clearly that uh being a homosexual is not a good thing it's your choice you are not forced to be homosexual what's wrong Keith I think that it's not a choice for people my goodness the amount of the amount of Oppression has been of gay people to suggest that they do it because they want to do it is just is just stupid we we've all know better than that is is is there a danger that with many of the social conserv attitudes coming into this country it's not going to be morally good for us it's going to take us back to a place that some argue we've moved on from that isn't my experience um most of my Urban congregations now are predominantly uh africaribbean uh and obviously they they come in with with very different values from West Africa or or the Caribbean uh and sometimes to very different values from the guardian and the independent as well different values from one another in terms of child upbringing Family Life uh uh and yet we're all kind of sharing the same church now now what what I'm Discerning in fact is is that they are also influenced by British values uh including British values of Tolerance and and the campaigning if you like from a more conservative direction is not actually coming from those people it's coming more from from from White conservative Britain British and so in a sense we're influencing one another and actually from the church of England we're doing very well out of it because we've got somebody like John C the the the Archbishop of York who who brings that energy and that passion uh but it but also brings a great deal of intelligence so we're winning that's get some views from the audience as well gentleman back there with the red shirt yeah go on hi um we've been talking about sort of morality and stuff but in terms of the sort of big stories in the news in terms of moral action they've been sort of shanon Matthews and all the of teenage killings what um relevances immigration have to that and that's what people seem to be most concerned about when they're talking about moral decline they're talking about these stories but but where's immigration got a point in that immigration the argument is that there's many of the people coming in have a sort of a stronger moral framework a stronger family background and they would uh they would bolster those values within this country people talk Maria about the polls don't they you came from Poland when three or four years ago three and a half years ago and um well I think that um I would would like to make any simplistic statement about this but I think that it should be the whole moral decline it should be approach from at least a few angles well to start with um the immigrants coming to Britain uh I think I'm very well aware of the fact that um the British Society was built on the values such as democracy Freedom respect uh tolerance and uh we are guests here actually and uh we want to learn and we also want to contribute to this country there's an argument by you know the the Saker who are the people who deal with organized crime in this country that a lot of crime has gone up because of Eastern European immigration gun crime other aspects of organized crime people trafficking and all that so it's not all you know Pious Catholics packing in the churches on a Sunday is it there are challenges there are problems there are but uh again you can't um you know this is a immigration um immigrants as a group they are very uh diverse group so um you know you can't generalize and you I think you need to remember about the fact that um there are certain values which well we we actually started the whole debate with these with the with with the results of the poll that about 83% of um of people believe that there is a moral Decline and uh well we can't change anything I think that we can perhaps influence uh some values and uh bring some values which are for example Polish people uh have learned under their homes like very very strong family ties okay you did you buy that about the Polish immigration for example Douglas Murray well I just wanted to say I mean uh the polling people and asking them if they sense moral decline I don't think you could ever take a poll anywhere at any point in our history where people thought they're in moral Ascent just doesn't happen everything's always getting worse that's the nature of human feeling yeah so you Richard Dawkins are you worried at all by some of the social attitudes that come into this country I'm worried about some of the social attitudes I've heard in this Hall tonight um this morning this sorry this it's all dark in here um I'm worried when when um somebody sitting next to a well-known gay activist says I believe that you had a mother and gets a round of applause now that's bigotry and I'm worried about that I'm surprised you are worried about that um we are debating and as a very intelligent man he made a statement earlier on about why different religions are not tolerated you you Justified let me answer you sir you because in here there are people that will believe in what we will all get applaud one way or another in what somebody else is saying he was given bet by a woman it was his choice to be gay whether it was something that he inherited or not that is what I believe I believe that to be the truth and so I don't personally believe that two men should live together or two women should be that is my belief and I stand by that I don't care what you personally believe stand by that and I stand by I don't think it's of much interest what you or anybody else personally believe everyone's entit to their opinion what is the evidence yeah and there there is no evidence that um as you say you have a choice about being gay or not you Justified what you said on biblical grounds which sounds awfully much to me like in your views upon other people I guess what I guess what this comes down to hang on let's let's let's please let's not get sidetracked too much on this but what what this interestingly comes down to is the focus on the contention Rabbi shocket that godly people are necessarily better people is that necessarily the case not necessarily the case no you don't have to be a Godly person in order to be a good person what needs to be put in perspective and I think we're all deluding ourselves is the fact that no one faith has the right to impose its value system on its Society every faith has broader values that can certainly be adopted by Society the cardinal sins idolatry worship of materialism today adultery the breakdown of family murder in its very real sense are as rampant today as before immigration is making no impact on soci challenging in any sense the consensus of liberalism uh w w with with with a small L that we have in this country tolerance and liberalism is that in any way challenged by immigration to a degree it probably is but only in so far as where certain societies look to impose their value system on broader Society what I choose to believe what she chooses to believe and Peter is prepared to accept her right to believe that is fair enough but if she's going to try and impose that on mainstream Society that's fundamentally flawed the real problem let me just conclude with one point the real issue is it's not immigration that's impacting Society I think immigrants themselves are losing their value systems that being influenced by Society councelor Al King Yas in a second counselor um you what I must ites me at this point to say for reasons of rules and regulations you are one of 10 candidates standing for the position of Mayor of London carry on thank you very much get Ken Livingston out that's um I think what we see here is what we heard from Professor Dawkins that extraordinary arrogance that if you have some views different from his your views are not acceptable there is no such thing there there is no such thing as a vacuum there are therefore values in the public sphere the question is whether you have the lady here the Pentecostal Evangelical with whom I would identify encourage her to speak up or you get the arrogance that says her views are not valid actually there have to be some views out there the question is can we live together can we tolerate each other not write one another out like Professor D Absolut tolerance and freedom of speech will will come on to and the right to offend but surely all our views are valid aren't they no not necessarily it depends on on the evidence she made a factual statement about the upbringing of gays and about whether gay people are free to change their minds or not that is a factual statement there is evidence bearing on it that means that personal opinion which is not informed by evidence is not of Interest yes you've written you've written you've written this fascinating book about your own upbringing in this country your parents came from remind me where they came from uh Pakistan pakist do you think do you discern a danger that we are stepping back in time in a sense with some of the attitudes being brought into this country okay before I go on to that I have a real problem with discussions like this we're talking about Britain's moral Decline and then we're looking at through the prism of immigration and it's we totally diver distracting ourselves from the real problem okay but what Britain is today and there is a problem we're not looking at the kind of pressures the fact that life has got more complex of course immigrants bring a lot of good values to this country who are immigrants they are from the most kind of ambitious entrepreneurial creative people in their societies who come over here but at some point immigrants stop being immigrants and they have to become citizens and that's when a new whole ball game starts and now we're talking about a situation where okay what now that the what kind of society are we going to build how are we going to keep cohesive with a different value system now immigrants can be are social some of them are socially conservative if you go back to our um the countries they came from you'll find a lot of progressive people there's good and bad everywhere so I think let's stop talking about immigration as some sort of you know way of looking at this issue of moral Decline and let's look at sort of what Britain has become today and why we got people like Shannon Matthew's cases and this low self-esteem among Al to be fair the question was posed in a very positive sense it wasn't it wasn't a negative take on it was taking it from a very positive point of view thank you for that Yas thank you all very much for those contributions uh with our interesting sideline between Betty and Richard on the way through as ever the debate continues on our message board just log on to bbc.co.uk slthe big questions and send us your thoughts on our next two topics as well do we have the right to offend and does the Devil exist [Music] well this week the comedian Ben Elton said that the BBC is too scared to make jokes about Islam uh there were protests by Christians outside a lecture by uh Richard Dawkins who's here with us today that was an in vaness and a few months ago the Oxford Union caused an uproar by giving a platform to Holocaust deniers 60 years on from the enshrinement of freedom of speech as a human right by the UN we ask does that mean we have the right to offend well Miriam we heard from you in the first debate I'll come to you now because the Supreme irony about this this Dutch uh film that was taken off uh the internet this Dutch film The contention of the film was that uh Islam is a violent religion and it had to be taken off the internet because of death threats so kind of some people say kind of proves the point but surely that is an argument that we need freedom of speech we need the right to ridicule we need the right to offend don't we well personally I mean I'm European through and through and I would Absol absolutely not want to legislate on people's right to express their opinions um and and absolutely but I think more worrying is why are we asking the question of you know do we have the right to insult I mean I don't walk around in my day-to-day thinking I'd really like to insult somebody but do I have the right to do it Theon what about the Ben Elon part we've had loads of comedies remember people of a certain generation uh you know as old as me and older remember Dave Allen all the jokes about priests we remember that we've got the vicer of dibl are we going to get the Imam of Bingham you know are we going to Bingley are we you know where is the sitcom in a mosque I mean actually it's funny you say that there's a Canadian program called little mosque on the Prairie which is a you know a comical show no it is it's little mosque little mosque on the Prairie it's a comical show an absolutely not there's been an astounding reaction to it people have loved it and they've loved the Insight that this has brought into kind of the day-to-day of normal Muslims you know not the not the ranting and raving people that we typically see on TV keep you have a right we maybe have a right to ridicule but do we have a right to offend a lot of the like the cartoons it's just gratuitous isn't it but directly taking that on I've just come back from the United Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva and their their intent the organization of Islamic countries in getting International defamation of religion legislation uh so worldwide freedom of speech is going to be impin and that's Dreadful it that's what underlines our whole democracy and our civilization is freedom of speech fortunately we're getting anything you want the the dividing line the line is inciting hate speech inciting violence you should be protecting the person not the religion okay Douglas Mor Harris reik in a second do we have a right to offend not just the right but there's a necessity to offend um when something is standing there it's perfectly obvious which needs saying I am I know G wild is a bit who made the film in Holland I knew the people who made the last film that did this in Holland of course ter van was shot and beheaded on the streets of Amsterdam and his colleague Ian her was chased into hiding um people are very aware of the danger of criticizing Islam they take the lesson from it and a lot of people still fail despite this to realize the incredible irony at the root of all this which is a group of people who say say my religion is peaceful or I'll kill you yeah but never mind that what about Jerry spring of the Opera what about other examples Jerry spring of the Opera Jerry spring of the Opera gets protests as I gather happened the other week with Professor Dawkins you get protests but does anyone honestly think that they likely to be killed for making a joke about Jesus Christ no of course not there there's the Life of Brian there's countless films about it lots people are offended of course they're offended and they have a right to be offended to by it but what happens when one religion manages to have a totalitarian hold over freedom of speech on it because people are genuinely concerned about criticizing it there is a problem and that is an unequal situation you say one religion will be absolutely allowed to be to be let free from all of these uh these criticism the right to ridicule I think I absolutely I think I think there's nothing wrong with ridiculing with uh with with criticizing with speaking up against something what whether it's religion whether it's somebody's point of view Etc where I would draw the line I draw the line here for Muslims and non-muslims as well is that where there is incitement to hate and violence now the let me give you an example of this U recently we had um it's a thin line though isn't it gray area absolutely recently we we we had a case where uh we had Yousef karwi who uh is hardcore islamist who somebody who actually um uh promotes suicide bombing um in the Middle East and rightfully so he was banned from coming into this country rightly so he wasn't given a platform and the reasons for that were that here is somebody who um was would have been given a platform to Insite this hatred would have been given legitimacy would have been able to sprout his views but I think in a case where we have somebody who wants to uh like Dave Allen or somebody else wants to actually make some satire make jokes about people Britain has a history of that we have a history of of of ridiculing each other and I think there's a difference between sense of ridiculousness AB absolutely there there's a stark difference between death threats there's a start difference between hatred and ridicule and mockery and I think that's where we have that's where the line is drawn what about Nick Griffin Christina adoni and Robert shock I'll bring you here Nick Griffin of the BMP and also David Irving the notorious Holocaust Den I they were given a platform recently at the Oxford Union was that right yes we have to we have to be able as as people of of One Faith or many faiths to withstand that kind of offensive criticism that kind of vicious attack what about somebody who lost relatives in the Holocaust seeing that man up there at the Oxford Union Banning free speech is a Cornerstone of totalitarian regimes and they're the very ones that have been persecuting uh religions for all the 20th century and now into the 21st look at the Chinese with the with the Tibetan Monks we cannot you know if we want to have the moral High Ground if we as as religious people want to have the moral High Ground we cannot play that dirty card that the totalitarian regimes did if we give a platform to Holocaust to nyers that's what ultimately leads into taking it to the next step of gravestones being defaced with swastica and whatever else besides you know there is no such a thing bottom line of freedom of speech there are always great areas or always laws I mean if I choose to say something terribly grotesque about the queen on National Television I mean there are consequences for that so there is is bottom line that there is such thing as freedom of speech I would only say this if you want to talk about freedom of speech let that always be in the context of responsible speech Rabbi [Applause] Rabbi you can have freedom of speech as long as it isn't anything too terrible the real point of freedom of speech is when it is terrible and the other point is that by allowing these people to speak I agree for the first time for a long time with Christine that you actually Expos them in probably will you actually expose them to criticism and you don't have the fre the the speech being fested if you if you stop it it festers and it doesn't it isn't Expos or does it legitimize islamophobia homophobia misogyny and all the other hobia that I can't think of right now does it not you get you get it out and these people are s the people the if you have freedom of speech people are allowed to to to criticize it and so the people who need to hear that criticism hear it and it's argued against it's defe by words har ref that's ridiculous all if you have somebody like Nick Griffin speaking on a platform if you have somebody like kwi or Abu Hamza all you need is one person in the audience who's going to take note of what he has to say move forward and go and have go and bomb somebody or kill somebody and and that's where we need to draw the line we cannot tolerate the Intolerable if something is intolerable we must as a society have a collective responsibility to stop [Applause] it you don't have to give a platform to Nick Griffin the oxid union was wrong to give him a platform but does he have a right to say what he says yes I suppose so just like Holocaust Den the problem is is that when we talk about Holocaust denial and things like this in the same uh context as freedom of speech today Holocaust denial is wrong for many reasons but one of them is because it's a lie it's a lie to pretend the Holocaust didn't happen so you're giving a platform to a liar when somebody says as G Wilders has done these are verses in the Quran and these are what some Muslims do in response to that that's not a lie that's just that's just a statement of fact our most important social freedoms and advances have been brought about by people who caused Great offense in their time Galileo Charles Darwin they caused offense to the church because they spoke out against the church Orthodoxy the first people who spoke out against slavery caused Great offense those who denounced the church and the way the church supported slavery they were denounced and condemned for cusing I could say that would uh offend you well there may be plenty of things you can say but you have the right to say them providing you don't incite violence against how how do we leg how not legislate is the wrong word but how do we make sure that people don't cross that line because I it's a very gray area isn't it m he wanted to come back here well I mean I was going to say there are certainly things that are offensive but do we need to offend people by by saying them I I me there's a way of saying things we can discuss the institution of the monarchy in this country without insulting the queen it therefore makes it perfectly reason reasonable and possible to discuss I think the ten and belief of any other religion without insulting sensibility insulting sensibilities that's interesting insult without insulting sensibility okay some Muslims think that music and dancing are Haram and should be forgiven not forgiven wrong word forbidden Haram that it's forbidden so if I were to say music forbidden Haram that is just Bonkers now some people are going to find that extremely offensive aren't they have I offended sensibilities do I have the right to say that I I think that they I think if people that are used to having debates within the Interfaith debates are pretty uh familiar with the codes and practices of different religions and understand where those boundaries are and certainly that would not be certainly that would not be one of those boundaries but there are certain things that even people with no religion would find offensive if I was to come on TV and start insulting you know I mean I hate to be crash but your mother that would be extremely offensive now we feel as strongly about our mothers as we do about the prophet Muhammad that doesn't mean you can't discuss what he said there is every single day people in this country put up with being offended walking down a street you get offended there's somebody wearing something like or you you get offended it's part of being grown up is just accepting the fact that you get your feelings trotten upon doesn't mean you have to deliberately tread on people's feelings no not necessarily but what you cannot do is to ring Fence One what you cannot do is to ring Fence One ideology through fear intimidation or anything else and that is what we see happening that's what Ben saying Rich professor professor uh you've obviously I mean a lot of people have taken offense at some of the things that you've written you know they feel personally offended because they feel that they're they're Faith which is so dear to them and their belief which is which they cherish has you know you're criticizing it do you do you think about that I don't go out of my way to offend but do you think about the possible consequences if people are offended then they may argue against me all I uses words there is a radical distinction between using words and and violence and incitement to to violence the Salman rushi Affair is absolutely brings this out Salman rushi simply wrote a book that's what he did he wrote a book he was threatened with death he was threatened with death by baying crowds in this country people burned his books they demanded the death penalty and some leading parliamentarians suggested that the paperback shouldn't come out some leading parliamentarians some leading clergymen some leading Bishops sided with the Ayatollah H rather than sided with this very distinguished novelist who did no more than put words on paper that is a radical distinction let Miriam come back in she discuss I do sort of feel like we're talking about issues in a vacuum here I mean you're talking about the fat against Salon rushi are we forgetting that we're talking about humi are we forgetting that we're talking about the 1979 Revolution and the context in which that was occurring and similarly when we talk about you know the reaction the highly unacceptable violent reaction of some Muslims some Muslims I would like to add to um films like gett Wilder's films and Van Go's film Etc you know we we almost looking like it's completely decontextualized it's not happening in a vacuum Muslims around the world feel victimized complely WR one of the people who supported the fatwa against Salon Rashi was now sir ikbal sakrani a leader of the Muslim Council of Britain he got a Knighthood after saying that death was too good for San Rashi and nobody and he a leader he was a leader of the Muslim Council of Britain Al Kennedy do you think that anything goes yeah I think we need freedom of speech what what what alarms me more than anything is that freedom of speech has being constantly redefined as the right to offend and it's only the negative aspects that were being shown and that leads to absurdities like the photographs from the torture at Abu are redefined in terms of these photographs are offensive and are causing unrest and you don't get the dialogue which is about it's offensive to torture people that causes unrest and photographs of torture and you you have this absurd situation where the more true something is and we are quite often talking about questions of belief and questions of factual provable truth the more true something is the more offensive it will be so for example you can't or you you would want to watch putting an article into a newspaper about a corporation because it would offend the corporation and if it's true you'd want to be even more care careful because it would impact even more on the share price so this this whole kind of right to offend seems to prevent truth from appearing there and what was so interesting in in our earlier debate was we had a Christian Evangelical who was we have to admit pretty offensive if you were gay and yet Richard didn't think that that was allowed so we are not allowed you know we are allowed to have Muslims um feel offended but not but not Christians I didn't say she shouldn't speak you said you said that she allow to come offive I I didn't say she shouldn't speak of course she's free to speak I I simply said that her personal opinion is of no interest on a factual matter where there is evidence Richard what do you think you can always have you can always have a difference of opinion and when there is a difference of opinion you're Pro homosexuality she's anti-homosexuality so be it you put those opinions out in the arena where it gets downright offensive when you're going to offend millions of people who died in a Holocaust by saying it never happened that's fundamentally wrong but RAB should should David Irving not have been should David Irving not be allowed to talk go a final thought B Tom cartoons for can I just take you to a specific point um there've been cartoons of you know God or white man on a cloud in in our culture and civilization for for eons you know it's not something we get concerned about why should we make special rules for other people but there are different cultures I mean what was it 10 years 15 years ago spitting image uh portrayed Jesus Christ as a hippie we weren't terribly pleased about it but we live with that culture the Muslim Community in this country said he one of our prophets you don't denigrate our profit in simar now now actually that was a very interesting kind of uh uh meeting of different different cultures different habits and if we're going to share one country and if we're going to have social cohesion we've got to respect one another and think before we act Britain is one of the most I have not got the freedom here now to shout fire because if I do a lot of people you would you do have the right if it was on fire you should shout fire yes but if it's not on fire you don't shout fire there's a limit so we have the same so we have to watch our p's and q's we have to watch about shouting fire in the public Arena if that is going to damage our soci Britain is one of the most Multicultural multifaith countries in the world and it's just not possible to carry on in a way you don't offend anyone the answer is we don't have the right not to be offended any of us thank you all very much indeed uh do you agree with what's been said whatever you say about what's been said I'm going to defend the death your right to say it uh send your views to our message board let us know what you think about our last debate does the devil actually [Music] exist so uh Richard um Professor Richard Dawkins you already made a glittering appearance on our program this morning um which has stimulated a lot of debate I wanted to ask you actually about some read a lot of your books um the great religious figures I know we've got some questions from the audience as well in a minute because somebody sent you a t-shirt I know it was after I think it was after a lecture you did um I saw this on YouTube it was uh atheists for Jesus explain that one and also the figure of Jesus Christ this extraordinary figure what do you make of him I wrote an article called atheist for Jesus making uh making the point that he was a very good man a a great uh moral philosopher as an individual I don't think that the um that the Christian values that say that he died for our sins or redeemed our sins the idea of a sort of scapegoat who who dies for other people's sins especially dies for Adam's original sin when Adam didn't even exist um I I don't think that that's great but Jesus how you know Adam didn't exist sorry I'm sorry look I'm a scientist and we we know that that well there may have been an individual um but but um Adam in the in the the biblical sense as I'm quite sure the bishop will will agree did not exist now um the point I was making is that Jesus as an individual uh was was was a very good man and I made the slightly tongue-in-cheek suggestion that if Jesus were alive today he'd probably be an atheist that that was all that that that article was about what sort of of character do you think he was you say he was a very good man do you think he was an extraordinary charismatic character yeah he was he was a charismatic preacher clearly uh and um he he clearly had the ability to um to to uh excite people to follow him uh so I think he was clearly a very a very remarkable man needless to say I don't think he performed any Miracles I don't think he was buil born of a virgin and I don't think he thought he was the son of God and you think he's gone to dust and no more and there is no trace of him anywhere else it's all it's all over plenty of trace of him in people's minds and books but but but no trace of Jesus as an individual now your your your whole um campaign at the moment um is is fascinating because you got it's almost like a crusade for reason you've got the Richard Dawkins Foundation we've heard your passion this morning you think it's very important to put these arguments out there don't you very important to put arguments out there not in an intolerant way I hen to add I'm sorry if I came across as as wanting to suppress people's freedom of speech absolutely not I'm all in favor of freedom of speech all all I was saying was that personal opinions are of less interest than um uh evidence-based views and it is not that difficult to find evidence there's plenty of we have very very good scientific methods for discovering what's true of about certain things for example in the case of Holocaust denial as somebody said the problem with that is that it's a lie um creationism similarly is that is that a lie yes um the Holocaust did happen Evolution did happen the evidence for both is absolutely overwhelming people always say with Evolution the question they always ask is well where then it's it's a fantastic Theory but where then and will we ever find that definitive missing link between ourselves and the Apes let me start with hom erectus homohabilis ostop Africanus ostros afarensis ardipithecus Orin where do you want to that's easy for you to say Richard I've got to say well don't use 19th century um language then using words like missing link that was way way back nowadays we have lots and lots of links okay um Christina I think you've got a question yes Richard if I preceded a a question to you and and said um atheists like adult Hitler Richard Dawkins and Joseph Stalin dot dot dot would you take Umbridge I would take Umbridge but I would defend your right to say it yes but I know but but what I wanted to point out is that most of your writings in most of your writings when you talk about religious people you you you pluck out figures like um the pilots who um drove the airplanes into the um and Par Billy you um you pluck out people like the inquisitors of the grand Inquisition um people like Jerry fowell and you must accept that for for those of us who are of uh people of Faith to take these extremes these horrible horrible extremes um sinners in all our eyes now um as representative of our faith is as is as offensive as you being led with Adolf and Joseph Christina if you had read my book The God Dar have I read your book I would back um uh first Adolf Hitler was a Roman Catholic you know full well that he was a Roman Catholic born but he lapsed and he came an athe years got um that is disputable it the the point the real point I want to make is that it is actually irrelevant because I don't as a matter of fact make points by picking on particular individuals and saying AAP the difference between the difference between taking somebody like Hitler and taking somebody like the pilots who flew into the World Trade Center is or Stalin Stalin may have been an Atheist he was an atheist but Stalin did not do his terrible deeds in the name of atheism the people who flew planes into the World Trade Center precisely did their terrible deeds in the name of religion they were righteous people they believe they were doing right they believe they were doing the will of Allah right okay well it's because they they were it was in a sense it was a kind of secular religion wasn't it commun we've got Lara quick question from Lara then we shall move it on to our last debate where is Lara oh they right up there I was looking at the wrong side a very quick question and Professor if I can ask you for a brief answer Lara people believe in God because it provides them with a sense of hope and without God where would that sense of hope derived from okay um first thing to say about that is that the Universe does not owe you a sense of hope it could be that the world the universe is a totally hopeless place I don't as a matter of fact think it is but even if it were that would not be a good reason for believing in God you cannot say I believe in X whatever X is God or anything else because that gives me hope you have to say I believe in X because there is some evidence for X in the case of God there is not a tiny shred of evidence for the existence of any kind of God but you do you see enough you see enough but you do you see enough as as as as reading your books I mean there is there is something to be said for what you say about you see enough in the beauty for example this the scientific beauty of a rainbow to to inspire you that's the second point I was coming on to is that there's plenty of Reason for Hope in a Godless world the the universe is a beautiful place the world is is a beautiful place to understand it in a cleare eyed open eyed way to look out at the world and to and to really understand why we exist what it's all about that is a hugely uplifting feeling that really does give a sense of Worth to life even if life itself is is finite as I believe it is uh nevertheless um it is not a hopeless life with without a God and to RT to my earlier Point even if it were then it's just illogical to say that that's that that gives you evidence for the belief in God here endeth the lesson thank you thank you very much indeed Richard [Applause] Dawkins I think we could have gone on all morning and all afternoon as well with the questions for Richard um but be prepared for some after the program is off the air I'm sure people will be coloring you and asking you some stuff Richard has been called um the devil incarnate by the American religious right our next debate is about the real devil if indeed he is real in some faiths Satan is a very real entity of force for evil to be struggled against in everyday life to others he's the godhead of Hedonism who deserves his own following but to the many children who suffered abuse because adults believe they were possessed by the devil he's been an excuse for the most terrible cruelty does the Devil exist uh Betty King do you believe the devil exists I do believe he exists but not to be feared not to be feared yes he can be conquered yes not to be feared um I speak as an African woman as a black woman obviously I'm British now but um I will share from personal experience why I do believe it does it does exist but not to be feared can the possess people yes I personally have cast out demons out of people um that were possessed by the devil I have done that how did you know they were demons very simple how can you justify a very intelligent man and I mean very intelligent a very successful businessman that had gone through depression for years and been to the doctor he knows there was something wrong with him the doctors couldn't diagnose what was wrong with him sitting down with this person through counseling uh you realize there was something really at work in his life because he really could these have mental health issues no not necessarily that um it was not mental health it was something that he knew was wrong inside of him in his stomach okay area and I have you heard voices and strange oh yeah sometimes you get people speaking in a a very funny a different language you know and uh their voice change you can children be possessed by the devil you know it's a very sad uh um when you know some some I mean what happened to Victoria Columbia was just the saddest thing you know that happened I don't believe that what happened to her maybe her AR was possessed by the devil well you know you we we head through the uh through the justice system you know what had gone on so I do believe that what had happened to both the uh the girl Victoria and the aunt both of them offically were were demonized they were demonized yeah Christopher cuz you your your case is absolutely horrific um because your former Foster mother Unice spr is in prison now isn't she for she was sent down for 14 years yeah what you went through from the age of three three years old yeah because and every time you were abnor she said well she thought that we were possessed by the devil that we were Satan's Children she was Jehovah's Witness and Jehovah's Witnesses do believe in Satan and that Satan can uh send demons down into people oh you I mean as a poor little wee boy you must have believed that uh generally did you know uh every slight thing I did wrong I thought is the devil making me doing this yeah is The Devil Inside Me and when it's been drummed into you day after day you do believe it and isn't don't spare us the details tell us some of the things she made you do well there's just to rid yourself of the devil huge number of things uh she was determined to beat the devil out of us literally uh she would beat her feet hours on end because the feet don't bruise so there'd be no scars but we would be there just LED on the floor screaming and then to shut us up she'd shove sticks down our throats so we couldn't scream for help she she made you drink your own vomit she did yeah uh we made to drink bleach TCP anything to rid us of the devil and she was determined to save us you know from Judgment day isn't that the day D of uh and thanks for your coming on and talking about this isn't there a danger with you okay bet you want to come back if you believe this clap trap isn't this where it can leave I'm really sorry that you went through that Glen she she was the devil well she because nobody clearly can she was a very bad person wasn't yeah I mean a person a child you looking after a child you know how can anybody looking after a child you know take uh put a child through that I believe that she was the one that had the problem with canel what did you say about the the the what some people would contend that if you start believing this superstitious clap trap that's where it can lead well uh it's all like Christina was pointing out to the professor down there that actually if you take the worst examples to try and illustrate your point it doesn't make your point and all of us would have sympathy for him and what he's gone through the devil ex that doesn't of course the devil exists there's actually no doubt about the devil how it helps to explain phenomenon as we're talking about like Hitler like Stalin like Mount saong and so on how do you explain these great historical um devastating uh effects unless you actually say there is a devil behind it you can explain it other ways of course but actually the most satisfying way of saying it actually there is a devil just as there is a God there is also a devil and that is what's what's actually undermining it all there is no other satisfactory but it isn't just individual individual let's focus on this there's no other satisfactory explanation for the great manifestations of evil in history oh of course there are I mean look at what's happened in the in the Orly child abuse situation where we haven't moved on very far from Sal witch child no other satisfactory explanation for Hitler oh of course there is it was it's an ideology that was the problem it was nothing to nothing to do with religion but mean we think we've moved on but we haven't I mean there's a witch finder General in in in every in every Bishop's uh in in every uh dasis an as an exorcist there is an exorcist in every COV dasis there is the Roman Catholic church has got them to may may I I mean yes pleas this is this is scandalous we have we have I have I have in I have in my dasis as in other dases an advisor on on healing and what one of his responsibilities is to protect us for from from this kind of dabbling in in in dangerous diabolical why is it dangerous if because it's for the reasons we' me it must exist because because it it it's dangerous in the sense that it confuses genuine mental ill illness uh w w with with sometimes spiritual problems and and the more the one gets excited about casting out demons and Devils the less chance there is that one is going to bring healing and wholeness and health to people and you saying they don't do exorcisms what what I do say what I what I do say is that I think the if we go back to uh the basics of the Bible in terms of the devil the Bible sees the devil as a fallen angel and that I think is an extremely good image because if one looks at Hitler if one looks at Starling if one looks at Paul pot if one looks at at at the is it an analogy though devil ex it is more than analogy it is an angel that has gone wrong something that has been good somebody who's had a strong vision for the good of society once it goes wrong if it goes wrong it can be diabolical gentl back there yeah yeah I just want to say um in today's society we've got pedophiles serial killers teenagers killing other teenagers if that's not the devil then what is it what makes these people do what they do the devil no more exists than Father Christmas of the tooth fairy let's look for the evidence when we want to know the facts we look we look we look for evidence that the devil or anybody else exists you know where is the empirical evidence that the devil exists it's it's a Superstition it's a it's a fanciful religious idea which has no basis in fact not a shred of evidence if if someone produced the evidence I'd be quite happy to believe it but there is no evence the evidence is the Holocaust how else can you explain the Holocaust except by saying there is a devil a personal being who actually designed to get rid of those six million people there is no other Hitler didn't himself there's no other satisfactory exp Professor Richard Dawkins how else do you explain the Holocaust I'm just astonished that anybody in the 21st century can can use this kind of of medieval Prem medieval Superstition Hitler was a very bad man Hitler was a looney um and the the real mystery about Hitler is how did he come to power how do we let social economic circumstances there are plenty of there are plenty of people like Hitler who are extremely bad extremely Wicked extremely mad his system killed 6 million people in other words the devil behind him killed killed one of them himself personally I know why why would you bring Supernatural Force when what what we're dealing with is is a is an evil man with a with a country in great economic deprivation a country that was felt very bitter about losing the first world war there are all kinds of complicated historical reasons butock this was this was an evil unparalleled absolutely and a and a descent into barbarism uh you know from a civilized society which is the point that Alan Craig makes there unparalleled in history would you explain it by diabolic means I think if you were going to suggest that it was out of Hitler's hands in so far as it having been the devil per se then to all intent and purposes from a religious perspective you couldn't hold him accountable um I think you have to reflect on the fact and from a Jewish perspective there is good in the world and there is evil that exists there Devil exist the devil the only time the devil appears in Jewish folklor when he turned up in a synagogue one Saturday scared everybody out except for the elderly Rabbi and when he asked him why aren't you scared he said cuz I've been married to your sister for 42 years but the the concept of evil per se does exist in order for there to be the balance and free choice in the world in other words a world that enables a man to make himself into say a Moses has to also enable a man to turn himself into a Hitler does anyone believe that the devil can actually appear in human form does anyone concept there is good and bad in all of us that's there's dark and there's light there has to be the balance what do you make of what do you make of this this the belief in the devil as I think it's hugely um dangerous at a certain level it's it's like a 5-year-old breaking something and saying their imaginary friend did it I mean you have to take responsibility for your actions and if you're looking at something like the Holocaust if you want to look at how you prevent that the one way not to prevent it is say oh well the devil descended and made X number of million people kill X number of other million people you have to look at the individual stages and the individual actions and the structure that made people feel not responsible for their actions you know it was it was a horribly well-designed way of killing millions of people and if it's just that somebody with wings turned up and made it happen then you have no way to stop not Wings you've got it wrong oh horns Wings Hooves Tails Alan how can I Stave off the devil who do you want Alan Craig Alan Craig well that's simple from a Christian point of you Stave him off by Christ it's in Christ you stay off the devil it's simple it's not complicated but but the point EXC me sorry can I forgive me Alan sorry we started with you Betty do you believe the devil can appear in human form um factually what I know and have seen I haven't seen him because some people say Richard Dawkins is the devil I don't want to those people those people every man is created in the image of some Evangelical Christians say that do you do you exclude the possibility that he's the devil um he doesn't I don't know what the devil looks like but obviously um you know if that's then I want to have a word with him you know but let me let me answer the question hold on very quickly yeah um you know um so many things that is being said here today whether the Devil exist um yes he does exist but not to be feared I say not to be feared because of my faith in Christ and everybody needs to believe we all need to believe in something for us to don't go there let me finish because patience is a virtue I think YouTu should have lunch after the show I think that would be a a nice end to the you're saying some people are saying that the devil is a force in the world there are forces in the world like gravity like radiation like electricity we can do scientific with you thanks for watching bye-bye [Music] [Applause] [Applause]

Channel: Tr3Vel0cita

Views: 371,548

Keywords: The, Big, Questions, 07, 04, 08

Id: of-8Q3HySjE

Length: 59min 7sec (3547 seconds)

Published: Wed Feb 29 2012