The neglected pre-Columbian history of the Americas (Part 13)

well hi everyone here we are for parts 13 and 14 rewriting history well not rewriting biblical history but rewriting maybe the popular history you were taught that you think is fact but we call it the new history and with me is dr. Nathaniel Jenson he's going to be the one doing the presentation and Nathaniel as we get underway hear about part 13 the neglected pre-columbian history of the Americas the pre-columbian history of the Americas has remained one of the most mysterious eras of human story written records are absent leaving genetics and archeology to fill in the lakes or so we've been taught have written clues to the Americas been lying before our eyes this whole time oh that's interesting join us as we uncover the neglected pre-columbian history of the Americas mmm that sounds really interesting and part 14 well we'll talk more about that tomorrow when we get to part 14 but what happened to the Mayans I've always want to know that and I'm very interested in what you say is right there before our very eyes and we don't even realize it maybe so dr. Jensen just before we get into part 13 you know I read the comments that are posted every time you speak and you know a lot of people are very appreciative of this and for a lot of people it's so radical and yet they're prepared to have their thinking challenged but there was someone who actually posted last week the comment that you say there were 54 million people in the Americas that's impossible that's ridiculous could you just speak to that first and then go on with part 13 yes it's a it's a good question and it reflects just how radical a change mainstream archeology of all of all places is affecting in our in our thinking so my first response is to ask the person why do they think that's impossible or or unbelievable and I should clarify because I realized in my in my dog I'm putting it superimposing on Central America that number isn't Central America is 53 million people that means the entire America is just to make sure that the comment isn't something that's been miscommunicated on my part so it's 53 million people for the entire Americas and what comes to mind is why I think that's reasonable it's highly debated even with the mainstream community we looked at the ranges but why I think it's very reasonable let's just think of the numbers for the rest of the world we discussed in previous episodes from episode 1 onward there's been a massive change in the global human population in the last 600 years or so after the Black Death finishes in Europe 1,400 we've undergone a 20 fold change in world population size from then until now well in the Americas today there's 300 some million people in the US in Latin America there's around 600 million there's about a billion people today in the Americas close to it if they were 53 million people in 1491 it's just under a 20 fold change from then till now so it's right in the ballpark of world population growth changes for the rest of the continents the rest of the globe that to me is reasonable plus there's increasing archaeological evidence that keeps that seems to keep pushing that number upward we'll talk about it more in part 14 even for the the area where the Mayans ruled how research even over the last two years is rewriting and and pushing up the number of people we thought were there it's a it's a massive number of people who lived here far more civilization than we first thought it's been obscured because the jungle has swallowed up so much of this and the research is ongoing but that's what comes to mind for me first is again it's a number for the entire Americas not just Central America this 53 million it's a number that has some play in it it's still being debated the best evidence is archaeological there some of the debate is because people are trying to take these death rates and extrapolate backwards and these have fairly large uncertainties and so forth but the evidence to me is increasing from archeology that this is quite reasonable and it fits sort of these these numbers that we have from around the globe and we'll talk more about that specifically with the Mayans and some recent radar research that's being done in part 14 that I think is really fascinating and there's places people can look into that further what I want to do in this episode though is talk about a line of evidence and discuss some of the answers to the questions we raised previously that has the potential to be even more explosive on this question of pre-columbian Americas and this question of course is one part of the larger question of who do we come from as the human race we as peoples even though we look different talk different act different different cultures all have a common ancestor even for creationists though I think we tend to think well that's still distant past even if it's a few thousand years ago we look at people that are different from us and maybe scratch our heads and say well I'm not quite sure how that works but at some point it happened and and we don't pay much attention to it and an example of that is the stereotype I've had for many years my mother is German my dad has been in America for several generations so I trace my heritage essentially to Europe and have naturally assumed that's probably all it's ever been and so these ancient cultures that we talk about in other parts of the globe that are not necessarily the European or Western European like the Greeks or the Asian cultures like the Persians and Babylonians are African ones like the Egyptians well that's not geographically where I'm from and so they must not have any relationship really to my family tree if it is it's not even worth mentioning well I've discovered this sort of assumption that I'm sure many people hold is wrong so for example I was just watching something with my wife the other day about ancient Egypt and modern Egyptians drinks on the archeological work they claimed the ancient Egyptians as their heritage well are they really their descendants who is who is related to these people these are the questions we're gonna be undressing in our series and have been addressing I've made some promises early on of some of the the big-picture conclusions we're going to reach that rewrite the stereotypes we've had about who we are and who we've come from I've said that there's we're eventually going to discover that so-called black white people exist that there are Caucasians running around who going back just a few hundred years have had African dark-skinned people as their ancestors for thousands of years prior to that I've promised and we've seen in previous episodes that we'll see that most Europeans are recent Asian ancestry we've seen that about two-thirds of Western and Eastern Europe have recent Central Asian ancestry you can see previous episodes for that we've also seen that these European nationalities that I recognize people are rightly proud of especially when it comes to sports and such things these nationalities German French Spanish Italian these disappear within a few hundred years in the human family tree and I'll talk more about the specific family tree that we're talking about the genetic basis for it we saw last episode the genetic evidence that the Americas were resettled before Columbus at least once and we're still eventually gonna get back to the earliest history and talk about Neanderthals and how they weren't primitive but survivors of one or more ancient catastrophes and my goal in all this is multifold multifold if you're a creationist watching it that it would strengthen your faith it would equip you to defend the faith apologetically if you're not a creationist that it would challenge what you've taken for granted and cause you to rethink but for everyone my ultimate goal is that we'd all be able to marvel at the story of who we are who we came from not just us personally but those we love and their stories who they've come from and that we do someone we've never dreamed of marveling before these are conclusions you'll find only here things I I wouldn't have dreamed about five ten years ago but that recent genetic research is uncovering so who are the Native Americans we saw last time several shocking things that genetics has recently revealed and this comes from a paper that was just published April of 2020 work I've been doing in collaboration with others we've seen that the Native Americans today are not the first Americans they arrived in the early ad era somewhere between 250 AD and maybe 800 AD from Central Asia they came over either mixed or perhaps wiped out whoever was here first and and this shock raises all sorts of other questions that we're now trying uncover the answers - why did they leave Central Asia what pushed them out why would they leave their homelands make the trek dangerous trek across the Bering Strait to a lands that's foreign and engage people and overtake them what what do they do once they arrived here what's their story besides just they came here in the rest is history and of course it raises the question of who were the people people who were here first who did they come from what's the their story now for years people have approached this question ignoring a source namely the Native Americans themselves for example the Delaware Indians or the Lenni Lenape when Europeans arrived were on the Atlantic coast of New Jersey New York Delaware and so forth they have or at least it's been claimed that they have a written record called the red record of the wall on olam the translation of it this is the book we have in our library by David McCutcheon we'll talk more about it shortly records like these oral histories of Native Americans have traditionally been discounted as mythological and if you've ever read some of the Native Americans owned accounts for their history and just out of curiosity sake or perhaps part of school you've probably been struck by some of the fantastical often supernatural seemingly mythological elements of these accounts that seem like they have little potential to contribute to our understanding of their pre-columbian history this particular account this is this was published 1993 the translation was the subject of a PhD thesis in anthropology at rutgers university david Ostreicher wrote his thesis arguing that this red record the wall and olam of the Delaware Indians is indeed a hoax and that Raffin s crapha desk is the guy in the early 1800s who brought this account to the attention of Western European errs he was from Kentucky so the alleged discover he was the indisputable forger so you had another example of people saying these these can't possibly be true and in cases where they sound like they might be true it turns out there's much something much more nefarious going on but we're going to find out that the new genetic discoveries we discussed last time our casting Native American histories like this one in a dramatically new light previous previously in Episode one we saw that the world is smaller than we think as I alluded to it and we're discussing the number of people in the Americas world population growth has changed dramatically in the last few hundred years and so you go back just six hundred years there's a lot fewer people twenty fold fewer people alive then than today so if you're looking for a spouse you've got a lot fewer options so either you marry a relative or you marry someone outside your group we saw an episode two that our family trees are much more connected than we think if I trace the number of my ancestors two parents four grandparents eight great-grandparents back just a thousand years I've got more people in theory on my family tree than there are alive in the entire planet at that time that's true for me for Ken for anyone so how do you solve this math problem you make the fence the branches of the family tree connect my mother's side my dad's side must must must be much more related to each other than we previously thought this implies then if you think about that answer globally that's so-called racial or ethnic change must happen more quickly than we think episode three we talked about the genetics of this and how easy it is and how quickly ethnic change can happen and much more quickly than we thought combined with rates of human reproductive growth we've seen just how easy it is for one ethnic group to take over another and they can do this silently without a seeing visibly a tremendous amount of evidence today in theory it's possible that most Europeans Caucasian Europeans are of recent African descent based on what we discussed in episodes three and four we've also saw scene in episodes five and six that our family tree is much more shallow than we think to go from eight people to nearly eight billion in the globe today happens in two hundred generational steps or less and if you think about that oK we've got to reduce eight billion branches on the family tree back to eight and boom boom boom boom in just two hundred steps you're gonna have to start connecting branches much more quickly than you're used to thinking about seen that the answers we're gonna get from genetics are not the answers you can get from a hundred-dollar test from ancestry.com or Family Tree DNA or 23andme or any of these commercial genetic testing companies they're looking at DNA that's inherited from both parents that can tell you probably a little more than what you already know from your own family tree so $100 out the door for not much more information the key information we need is DNA that's inherited from only one parent or only the other parent so that the genetic signal cannot get diluted in theory that could either be that mitochondrial DNA that's fancy term to the DNA that mothers pass on or what we've seen it could be the paternal DNA the Y chromosome the the fancy term for the DNA inherited from dads and we've seen for technical reasons that we discussed in episodes 5 & 6 it's the male inherited DNA that's the best tool for digging into the details that precise details of human history and the principal is this DNA is passed on from father's to sons but it's passed on in perfectly every generation a few mistakes are introduced in the DNA sequence we can identify those just by comparing DNA sequences to one another we're also similar at the genetic level it's easy to spot these mistakes just by the differences and so these differences then act like ticks of the clock every time a new set of generate a new set of mistakes are introduced it's ticks of the clock and so we can then compare people around the globe see how similar or different we are that represents the ticks of the clock that have passed since we shared a common ancestor and then we can read arrive a global family tree so if Ken and I get our Y chromosome sequence and we have very few Y chromosome differences between us very few ticks of the clock we must have had a recent common male ancestor or if you know I have many Y chromosome differences between us we must have had a more distant common Y chromosome ancestor episode 7 we began to look at the details of this family tree based on the Y chromosome we saw lost relatives of Europe in India of all places in Central Asia and the Middle East and we saw an episode 8 but the explanation for this likely has to do with the Mongol invasion in the 1200s their occupation in Europe until the 1500s the Russian expansion westward pushing some of the back out and the Mughal Empire which is of Mongol descent coming down to India before the British arrived with the East India Company in the Raj in the 1800s the East India Company arriving in the 1600s we've also seen that there's an ancient Chinese connection to modern Europe even though China is a long-standing isolated civilization it's historically had continuous harassment from the so called barbarians in the north they were ruling parts of China on and off throughout Chinese history and some of those northern tribes have also mingled with Europeans leading to this connection that genetics uncovers we also looked at the history of the Americas after Columbus the arrival of the Europeans to see who settled it looking for the hidden history of the Americas which is by extension the history of Western Europe since about 80% of the u.s. at least was settled by Western Europeans we've seen that the ancestors of most Americans are not who we think they are they're Central Asians Western Europeans and the majority of US citizens 70% being Caucasian Western European descent these have Central Asian ancestry as well in episode 11 we saw that there's been a revolution in mainstream science mainstream archeology and on our understanding of pre-columbian history there's been far more people here on the eve of Columbus's arrival than we've been taught and these people were far more advanced than we thought not some primitive brutes walking around in the word of words of Charles Mann who who authored 1491 he called them survivors of a recently shattered culture like walking into Nazi Germany after World War two in a concentration camp and seeing all these starving naked people if you didn't know the history you might say oh these are leftovers from the Stone Age no they they're they're tragic survivors of this awful catastrophe that the Nazis perpetrated on them similar thing is going on in the Americas now that we're uncovering some of the evidence archaeologically and historically for the massive numbers of people this rewrites how they understand it and shocking implications for how we understand the Amazon there's increasing evidence maybe ten twenty five percent of the Amazon is actually cultivated forest orchard deliberately put there by pre-columbian people's thought this pristine wilderness that's been untouched by mankind for thousands of years we've seen from genetics that the Americas were resettled at least once before Columbus arrived by the Central Asian invaders we now want to look at the neglected pre-columbian history of the Americas and to begin I want to highlight how even in mainstream science attitudes are shifting let's think about the Osage tribe they're based on their language classified in the same group as the Sioux the famous peoples of the Northern Plains that the US Army engaged as the u.s. pushed westward we talked about Custer's last stand Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse and their Sioux and Cheyenne Company fighting against him well Osage a part of the Sioux and group today they're found based in Oklahoma there's a PhD anthropologist dr. Andrew hunter who's part of the Osage Nation I've given the URL here at the bottom of the screen so you can see the rest of this discussion she wrote an article called oral tradition and historical evidence and in it she discussed this changing attitude so this is a mainstream anthropology individual talking about how even attitudes using her own nation the Osage Nation as an example attitudes towards Native American oral histories are changing so she said it's told meaning Native Americans the Osage say that in the distant past all five and I'm not going to say the name because I can a butcher it Osage tribes or once one nation that leaved is too east of the Mississippi River in the vicinity of the Ohio River scholars have long contemplated the history and identity of the Osage beginning as early as the 1920s and the article goes on to show that traditionally those oral histories were discounted and rejected why should we even consider it and she traces how these attitudes have changed and people have challenged one another in mainstream science saying look you can criticize it all you want but until you come up with a better explanation perhaps we should take what they say is a good starting point and how even today mainstream archaeologists are basically in large agreement with the oral history that the Osage tribes have described so there's changing attitudes here just like we saw changing attitudes in mainstream archaeology for all of the Americas this of course has its limits and I want to focus on one particular narrative that I mentioned earlier as an example of the limits and now new discoveries that are emerging and sources of Native American history we've previously discounted so again this delaware tribe found on the east coast when Europeans arrived has claimed to have this red record this wallam olam now because of this PhD thesis from 1995 the delaware nation has rejected this as authentic so the timeline here is McCutchen publishes this work the translation of it in 1993 he's within the mainstream so he tries to stretch it out over 15,000 or whatever the time scale was at the time for Native Americans he's not by no means a young earth creationist and but but largely treats it as perhaps an authentic account of their crossing of the Bering Strait and migrating to North America eventually arriving in the East Coast and we'll talk about some of the details in a moment Ostreicher 1995 was offended by this and partly and he talks about the background to why he pursued his PhD topic ends up concluding that everyone's been misinterpreting this for years that the red record was fake invented by some guy in Kentucky to gain himself wealth and fame will return to oh strikers criticisms momentarily what I want to do for the moment though is walk through some of the highlights from this account we don't have time to go through the whole thing you can buy this on Amazon to see the whole thing it's composed of five individual books each many stanzas what I want our viewers to see is how this record reads I mean of course going to read the English translation of it justice this is rather different perhaps and many of the fantastical and super natural sounding accounts but it's also very interesting especially to creationists is that how this begins so let's start with book 1 the opening lines of this read record and we'll return to some of the mainstream criticism of this to see what this reveals about the authenticity of this and other records and the nature of evolutionary criticisms of Native American accounts so this book begins with at the beginning the see everywhere covered the earth above it extended a swirling crowd cloud and within it the Great Spirit moved primordial everlasting invisible omnipresent the Great Spirit moved and if you've read the Bible you might say this sounds a lot like Genesis chapter 1 verses 1 and 2 and indeed this book this this red record describes a very clear creation account bringing forth the sky the earth the clouds the heavens bringing forth the day the night the Stars bringing forth all of these to move in harmony so you have echoes here of Genesis chapter 1 again the Great Spirit created the creator of spirits living beings and mortals the souls for everything those ancestors the first men were alone the first women were brought to them so you hear echoes of Genesis 1 and 2 the creation of mankind but then very secretly at the end an evil snake a sorcerer came to earth wickedness wrongfulness criminal acts these came there so not only you have what sounds like a very strong echo of Genesis chapter 1 verses 1 & 2 but other elements of Genesis 1 elements of Genesis 2 and now a fall account complete with a snake involves the mighty serpent resolving that man and living things be destroyed so that mighty serpent that knows beginning book 2 I've been skipping sections here just for sake of time giving you the highlights brought the snakes brought the sea monsters brought the snaking flood flooding and flooding filling and filling smashing and smashing drowning and drowning they have a flood account they have a creation fall flood sequence in this case the flood has brought about not by God but by this evil snake so there's differences obviously it's not a verbatim quote from the scriptures but there's echoes here of that heritage the Great Flood dry valley and howl the great peril was over it was over after the flood the Lenape the Truman and now we're in book three the turtle people we're crowded together living there and cave shelters but what does cave remind you of they're homeless I see they're homeless snowy their home was windy their home was freezing ice age now this is supposedly if it was forged this is early 1800s stuff and here we're talking about Ice Age I I'll give away that I don't think this is forged for reasons we'll discuss momentarily but notice that they're even discussing not just creation fall flood but Ice Age afterwards live in caves it goes on in the old land the winter land the turtle and the great land were the turtle men lil innothing all the enemy snake launch fires were troubled the snake priests said to them all let us go now in this case they seemed to be using the term snake to refer to their enemy's enemy peoples and we'll see this as we go on they continue to speak of them that way the snakes there in the east all went forth going away grim and grieving so at this point and even McCutchen the guy who's translating this agrees they seem to be describing something happening in Asia perhaps Siberia fleeing tired and shivering through the wasteland torn and broken to Aquaman the wilderness so they're describing here these peoples in Central Asia their enemies apparently going to Aquaman which we'll discover is the Americas they go first these snake people whereas the Lonavla the Delaware State ick around for a while apparently in Central Asia or Siberia wherever this is the freemen carefree and fearless all went northward spreading across the snowy country by the dark fish see the gaping hollow sea settled the white eagle clan in the white wolf clan this appears to be close to the Bering Strait rowing crossing the water for they long glory than the eastern light the land of alcaman ten times a thousand they crossed all went forth in a night it's about ten thousand people there crossing and I want to view viewers to see the level of detail here that this account gives even the numbers of people crossing they crossed to Ockham in the Eastland crossing marching marching everyone together this is not the beginning of book four again I've skipped a lot just for sake of time this is a fairly extensive record long ago the ancient Lenape came to the Evergreen land the white eagle had been the path maker hitherto for all of them there when Aquaman the ready land the good lands they discovered kindred the hunters the pioneers meeting in council all declared Cola we all noble elder thou art sachem here sachem you'll see is just their term for later president some something along those lines here again other enemies the snakes come that must slay them a snake hollow they must leave defeated all the snakes fled to hide in the swampy bales after cola wheel in the evergreen land the station was the white owl after him the station was constantly on guard and if you've read much of the history of the American West and the Indian Wars and the names that the tribes would give to one another you can see the sense of humor they had their creativity you look at some of the the suah names like Red Cloud Sitting Bull man afraid of his horses very yeah again sense of humor intriguing names this description and the naming of these people is consistent with that constantly on guard very descriptive names for who their leaders were after him the station was Chile Lee the Snowbird who spoke of the South that our people will be able to grow and spread their South would wind shillelagh eastward went the beaver and this isn't the only time where whoever the original group was apparently broke up and spread out I want to draw our attention to another event this account once you get to the America as they list about ninety to a hundred Sachems each of them with a similar formula the name of the guy with a line or two or maybe a stanza describing some significant event while he was the ruler here's an exception though so I a mech was one of the Sachems after I a mech ten Sachems and they're never named much evil was then south and eastward well what was this evil notice who comes after after then the station was peaceful in an aqua Lackey so it appears that there was some evil perhaps violent wicked events that was transpiring so much so that didn't even name the people who were involved and I think it's significant that it's followed by a guy named the peaceful one so wartime I think is implied at that point we'll return to that momentarily the next station was history man Rick and written records he began to this this account taken at face value claims to be a document that was written over many many generations it appears at this hm each sachem keeps adding to the record I was this agent or this was the sachem and he did this and then the next generation this was the sage him and he did this and and on and on it goes the next station was shriveled man the next station was drought there was no rain no food together eastward they went to where there was water and again the this guy the author the translator david McCutchen goes through and we'll get to the map he creates given that the geographic clues in this text of how he thinks was the migration from Alaska down through Canada and then across the Great Plains and over the rivers eventually ridden the Eastern Shore and it describes an arrival at the Atlantic Ocean later on in the book this is book 5 all the hunters reached the sun's salt sea once more the ocean red arrow was the sage about the Tidewater there's another record from the Delaware that they have kept besides this we're gonna treat it as a penchant for the moment they kept wampum records and the wampum records so they're their currency in a sense back then they kept a record of what they were doing they claim that they have reached the Atlantic in AD 1396 will return to that date and that the significance of it momentarily there are also two mentions of encounters with what they say are white people mistaken was the same about what then came this is a little later on for at that time from the dawn see the whites first appeared in McCutchen says it suggests that this may be the sighting of some of the Spanish along the Atlantic coast in 1524 so over 100 years after they're arriving at the Atlantic watching it a little bit later watching closely was this hm looking seaward this is the second encounter for at that time from the north and south the white people came friendly people in great ships who are they and this is how the red record ends and McCutchen associates this with the Dutch in 80 1620s over 100 years after the Spanish the kuchen himself based on the clues in this and again McCutchin views it is largely historical not a creationist traces out what he thinks is a good approximation of the movement of these peoples through North America I want to draw our attention to three main facts main highlights from this account that we're going to revisit momentarily first of all the date for when they arrived the red record does not give you in a BBC these sorts of things what it gives you as we've seen from some of these highlights is a very systematic account if this was a say Jim and this is what happened and then this was this H and this was happen about 95 96 of them from the time they arrived in North America crossing over to Aquaman as they call it down to when the whites first arrived you can estimate the date for that first sachem based on the list of about 96 well how can you do that remember they have two mentions of when the whites arrive and they have the mention of their arrival at Atlantic shore which their one plum records put at 1396 given what McCutchen estimates about the first White's arriving being about 15 24 and then the second one being about 1620 you can use those three dates to then estimate the length of each stage of rain so you've got a certain stage and for Atlantic and SH and for whites another stage from down here if the other whites and you've got the number of sections between each of these states and so then you can use that those numbers and those facts to say okay on average then it seems each stage from rules for what well if you do the math it turns out to be about seven to fourteen years which is interesting because in the u.s. at least presidents are supposed to rule for four to eight years this is not something too outlandish it seems even by by modern standards so there's a range and again this is this is a an ancient account and so there's there's uncertainty here but if you use those numbers that average length of state remains say okay 1620 is when it stops you go back 95 96 a jumps at the beginning what's the date then we can estimate enter in the range of 80 to 82 630 I mentioned that there was this section of 10 unnamed Sachems when there was much evil as if there was some sort of violent conflict again using that same sort of math because they tell you when the Sachems lived and who was before and who was after you can estimate that to be around 83 hundreds to 800 s and the last thing I want to point out is this red record implies and talks about peoples who are in the Americas before the Lenape arrived all this would be irrelevant if the thesis from David Ostreicher is true and it's indeed false it's a hoax and again he's been so persuasive the Delaware Nation themselves have rejected this as being an authentic account well what's the basis for this I've I've read parts of his thesis I've also have Rafa desks writings Rafa nest being the guy who brings this to European attention or people of European descent their attention what are the main claims that Ostreicher puts forward the first thing I want to say and the first thing that began made me being the question what he was saying was the tone if you read and I encourage anyone who's interested in this to do so you can find it online if you've if you read Rafa desks worked in the early 1800s it reads just like other people from the 1800s it just so happens that back then many naturalist scientists took the Bible as a historical document I wouldn't call them necessarily young earth creationists Raffin esque himself speculates that maybe the Native Americans were survivors of the flood so he's clearly not a believer in the global flood I don't know that he'd signed the AIG statement of faith but he's part of a typical group of people who put some credence in the Bible as a historical document and don't reject it was some sort of mythology as is common today so it reads fairly factual and like the genre of people writing the 1800s Oh strikers PhD thesis in parts reads like a tabloid and I hesitate to say this but it's rather shocking the language he uses and I have wondered how this past PhD thesis committee but so it goes in academia another thing that raised red flags in my mind was his description of the background to this and his reasons for investigating this and the investing in the origins of the wall Imola he said he had become friends with Herbert C Kraft a noted New Jersey archaeologists in New Jersey of course relevant because this is where the Delawares were when when Europeans arrived after Columbus craft the archaeologists argued that the dates for the migration saga and the wall and ohm are not supported by the archaeological record which indicates that the Delaware appeared to have evolved inside - meaning in the New Jersey Delaware area in their homeland over thousands of years so here Ostreicher says will mainstream archeology which of course has history of 15,000 years it disagrees with this so how can we accept it as factual of course being a creationist and knowing biblically and scientifically that that time skill is off I thought okay here's how the logic works if the mainstream timescale disagrees then the wall and all must be wrong I know that's reason to question not the authenticity of the wall I'm alone but the methods of mainstream scientists will discuss more about the problems with this time scale and future episodes we've already seen in previous episodes some of the major problems with this now he goes on to say Kraft had not found any petroglyphs in the Northeast which resembled the pictographs in the document and this is the point I want to camp out on momentarily because it illustrates I'd say probably that the leading logical flaw with Ostreicher argument here and other ones he raises I'm not going to claim that all the questions he raises have been settled and that there's no questions remaining about the the provenance and how it was acquired in these sorts of things there's questions but I want to show you that his main arguments fall apart if you look at them closely so let's first take the Walla Mowlam at face value as it claims to be and see how we should expect the world to look if it was true because this to me is something Ostreicher is unable to do and this to me is a near universal problem in the mainstream evolutionary community expecting this over and over again when they deal with creationist literature they are unable to think outside their own evolutionary worldview and say okay if creation is true how should the world look they just think only in evolutionary terms and then they make all these straw man arguments not even bothering to try to figure out what the creationists actually say or or what they predict the world to look like and then reject it out of hand severe logical flaws and I see the same pattern of thinking showing up right here so if the Walla Molen is true how much should the language in the wall of olam match modern wala mowlam and there's pictographs McCutchin in his 1993 account shows a whole pictographic story along with written delaware language than the english translation of all this if this has been composed as the wall and olam claims over thousand years in various parts of the country with the Delawares arriving in the Atlantic in the late 1300s should the modern Walla mollem language and pictographs found in New Jerseyans that should they match the walla mowlam which purports to be an ancient document well just look at the parallel in English we can start by thinking about the King James Bible 1611 is King James English the same as modern English no English has changed will you go back even further Beowulf which mainstream folks would say was it's been dated to about 700 750 ad this is a very helpful parallel because this now fits it's close to the estimated time frame in which the wall and olam is composed in fact I'd say the wall of appears to go back even further a few hundred years older I can't read a word of this and has no match to modern English that's not gonna lead me to say that Beowulf was a hoax perpetrated by someone in the 1800's because it doesn't match modern English that would be a major logical flaw and in fact no mainstream person agrees with that the Encyclopedia Britannica calls Beowulf the highest achievement of Old English literature and the earliest European vernacular epic languages change that's a fact of human existence you can see it in the English language Oh dramatically it's gone from something unintelligible to modern English speakers - that - the language I'm speaking right now so if you find an old document that doesn't match modern English it's foolish to say therefore it must be fraudulent it's know let's consider it in its context so this claim well it doesn't match modern Delaware doesn't match the picture grass roots in in the east coast why should it if it's been composed in multiple spots over it 1015 under your time frame it shouldn't match just look at the history of the English language it would be much more reasonable to say this for all practical purposes might be an old the highest achievement of old Delaware literature in the earliest Delaware vernacular epic so that's just one of the logical problems I've seen but I think it's I highlight this because it applies to other arguments he makes and it's so typical of the evolutionary approach to anything that disagrees with their mainstream view they are unable to say and consider each conflicting hypothesis one that conflicts with their own views on its own terms they basically assume evolution to reject it which is a circular argument that's it's it's it's false again are there questions about the wall alone yes do I have the answers to all of them no what I want to point out though not only are the the criticisms of the wall on olam on on shaky logical grounds here's something else that's rather fascinating go back to these three points I want to highlight from this read record this record seems to imply the Delawares arrived from Central Asia in that timeframe that I've shown right here 82 82 630 last episode we talked about the y-chromosome family trees shown here the fact that we have modern living Native Americans showing up the tree right here that the branch at were calling Q this is the branch that all mainstream folks look to for the history of the Americas before Columbus we've seen an episode 12 that we can we can confirm the known post Colombian history in the DNA of these people we can infer population growth and decline that's a whole long technical discussion we got into an episode 12 see that if you want to review that we can see that we talked about flatlining being The Smoking Gun of a population collapse and it was so massive it has retroactive effects before Columbus this purple line being 1492 we also said we can see the flatlining and the recovery of the peoples of the Americas in the eighteen and 1900s I've summarized a lot that we discussed in episode 12 so this this then is that confirmation of what we know happened post Columbus evolutionists don't see this they do not see the recovering the 18 1900s so the fact that this is working for known history means we can then use it as a tool to probe the mysteries of pre-columbian history and we said that they came over perhaps in the 600 to 800 s and I'm gonna give you a range of dates because it depends on where you put Noah in the tree and I've got it narrowed down to just a small range of positions on the tree this is one position the other position bumps those dates back a little bit further but notice whether it's 200 to 500 or whether it's 600 to 800 both of those match very closely what this red record shows so before we get onto these next points here's my challenge to David Ostreicher and others they want to talk about four tree and and how could this guy come up with this well let me ask them a question how is it possible if we're inland and and let me actually try to analyze their hypothesis on its own terms so let's say for the sake of argument we're gonna go with Ostreicher hypothesis that this is a forgery concocted in the early 1800s what's the chance if that's true that ask the guy the supposedly the forger concoct a hypothesis concoct this account of the Delaware origins in the early 1800s that just so happens to match very closely what modern genetic discoveries will uncover over a century later that coincidence stretches and boggles plausibility to me the much more plausible hypothesis is that this is perhaps a long-standing oral history that got written down recently or is in fact a long-standing written history to me it suggests this is authentic in many respects not that not all the problems have been solved this appears to be an actual account that they that they kept because it matches modern genetics here's the other point I want to bring up another point I want to bring up they say there was this violent conflict these after I am at this age and there was tense agen much evil there's the dates they're 300 to 800 back to the tree and the two different positions of Noah they come over 600 800 then they undergo massive population growth in the eight hundreds to a thousand or 500 to 700 so this line shooting upward shows the population growing very quickly the other point I'm gonna highlight here that I didn't highlight in episode 12 this is also the time period if you look at this tree in other studies when they're spreading out through the Americas this is where a bunch of different spots that peoples in the Americas come together so they're migrating and distributing and perhaps wiping out the people that were here already so this correlation also seems to fit this this fits the genetic discoveries and the implications of it so here's a second point of correlation and then lastly this record implies that the people here before the arrival of the Delawares and I mentioned episode 12 from archeology we have Olmecs going back to the pre a thousand BC era Mayans have archaeology goes back to the BC times yet this this genetic discovery from episode 12 implies that these people came over in the ad era so whoever was here first their archaeology from the BC era those are the first peoples these guys came over there the second ones in other words genetics and archeology combined to say there were people here first before today's Americans the red record seems to say the same thing so again my challenge to Ostreicher and others is if what you're saying is true how is it possible that a guy would fake a document that just so happens to match modern genetic discoveries on multiple points how could he anticipate this level of detail when genetics was even the field of science back in the early 1800s then you can read more about this in papers I've just published I'm arguing that these genetics highlights several points of agreement they highlight several conclusions reached in this red record account that seemed to match modern genetic discoveries genetics seems to indicate that this previously rejected source of information one that the delaware nation was convinced to reject this authentic may in fact be an authentic account of the delaware history and migration and if this is true for this one that's got a long-standing history how many other Native American accounts oral or written are out there that still hold clues to what happened in the Americas before Columbus how much more is out there standing right in front of our noses that we've previously neglected rejected as I'm at the logical a historical how much is out there waiting to be tapped and investigated to uncover the real history of the Americas before Columbus arrived this is the new history of the human race I'll be discussing more of this in episode 14 you know Nathaniel I was just thinking as you're doing that there's a basic problem that people have today and they've had in regard to those documents you're talking about because even in the covert 19 situation we're hearing certain politicians out there saying Christians are against science and you need to listen to the scientists and so on and yet I think it's that people have this misunderstanding that oh somebody goes out there and says in archaeology this goes back to this date and all the rest of it this therefore conflicts with this record they don't realize that those people are interpreting those archaeological finds and it's based on a particular worldview and maybe using some possible dating methods carbon dating or something that there could be some other dating methods but they're based on fallible assumptions it can be shown to not be 100% true and so that can be reinterpreted I mean the same sort of thing with modeling for what's happening with viruses and so on people need to understand their assumptions behind it there's a there's a basic problem here and that we need to understand the difference between observational science and historical sciences we have always pointed out in this ministry and that has great bearing on this topic doesn't it and another problem I think is sadly highlighted by that same Cova discussion is something that I thought was I hoped had been restricted to Europe because I've been a german descent in germany many times and I've heard from people over their back and then when I've done visits experts got to trust the expert trust the experts as if there's a group of people out there who have no biases interpret things without any hint of preconceived notions do only the facts don't bring any assumptions to the table and somehow we should just trust every word they say and as if experts never disagree with one another and of course and sadly this is now the attitude I'm seeing over and over again in this pandemic discussion what trust with the experts say well which experts no one wants to think for themselves talking to my a friend of mine and he pointed out others have said it seems sadly today many Americans don't want to think about the questions for themselves they want to be told what to think and that has dangerous consequences especially on questions of life and death and it shows up in in these discussions as well they don't understand observational versus historical science they don't understand the logic that's used they don't know they don't send the basic logical flaws and many of these arguments where people are mainstream science is so ingrained and then evolution only view they can't step outside of it and consider alternatives because what we know it must be wrong because evolution is true what that's a circular argument if your if your argument if your position is scientifically valid you should have no problem stepping outside of it and saying well here's this other view but here's why it's wrong boom-boom-boom here's the six points of reason why it's well they can't do that which to me underscores the deficiencies in the mainstream view and is ample reason to question it you know this also applies to one other area that you brought up in looking at those records and records of what those people had said about the history and you saw similarities to the biblical account in Genesis now there are coaches all around the world that have flood accounts that have accounts that sound like the Tower of Babel I mean the Australian Aboriginal people I remember collecting books in Australia from the Museum's with their dream time legends and there were accounts about three sons on the raft that landed on a mountain after a big flood and God put a rainbow in the sky the woman was made while man was asleep woman took some sweet honey from the tree and so therefore taking the sweet honey had released evil into the world yet the the evolutionists would claim that has nothing to do with true history or biblical history the fact that the elements are all the same if anything what they say is oh you know the Jews borrowed their stories for instance from the Babylonians and that's why they have these similar stories instead of saying there was the original account and now we see perversions of it all over the world in different cultures and so because of the evolutionary worldview they totally misinterpret those things and that's to me where the bias shows up so strongly Oh sir I heard rakes rafen desk over the coals and it's highly suspicious to me and and what seems to be more at play here is it's not that rafa desk is somehow he is a product of his time graph and asked the guy who's supposedly the forger of this document but he sounds just like the other people at that time and to me what comes through more clearly in oh strikers thesis is the bias people have against the attitudes of that day it's very difficult for mainstream evolutionists to accept the fact that no treating the Bible even if it's not in a young earth sense but treating the Bible as a historical document and as a guide for academic research was a mainstream good academic view back in the 1800s and somehow that's just unthinkable to them and so of course it must be wrong no no they don't understand that that's its modern bias creeping in to judge these older views by a ridiculous modern standard people like Raph and asked who was it was quirky for sure but quite brilliant he and others of his day again they're living in an era where the Bible is treated as a legitimate document they've got weird ideas about it and it's the modern mind that is unwilling to consider the possibility that smart people actually did that back then and that intelligent people still that do that today that's that's to me what comes through loud and clear and sadly is so pervasive in today's mainstream evolutionary community and inhibits real progress on scientific and as we're seeing historical questions well thank you dr. genes and we look forward we look forward to coming back for part 14 coming back for part 14 which will be on the mayans and that's gonna be very interesting to see what happened to the mayans and you're gonna give us some answers so people come back tomorrow night and go to Answers in Genesis YouTube channel to see all of these programs in a playlist or subscribe to answers dot TV and you'll have it all they're easy to find along with all their other hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of video items as well thanks dr. Jensen we look forward to part 14 coming up tomorrow night thank you

Channel: Answers in Genesis

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Length: 52min 20sec (3140 seconds)

Published: Sat May 09 2020