The Dangers of Divorcing a Narcissist with Demetria Graves | Season 2; Ep 4

narcissists are all about winning which is why divorcing a narcissist can feel impossible on this episode of navigating narcissism I've invited top divorce attorney dimitria Graves to break down this unfortunate and unique Art of War unlike dimitria many attorneys don't understand the intricacies of dealing with narcissism in a divorce like the fact that it's not uncommon for these proceedings to last longer than the marriages themselves in this eye-opening conversation she reveals her pre-divorce checklist debunks divorce myths and warns of common mistakes this is a must listen for anyone divorcing a narcissist thinking of divorcing a narcissist or even thinking about getting married period after all the best way to learn how to make it work is from an attorney who spent her career handling the pitfalls and the landscape of narcissistic marriage and divorce if you you don't want to go through a grueling experience of getting out pay attention to how you come in this podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice counseling and or therapy from a health care professional with respect to any medical condition mental health issue or health inquiry including matters discussed on this podcast the views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast and do not represent the opinions of red table talk Productions I heart Media or their employees so Dimitri I am so happy to have you here thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and thank you for inviting me Dimitri the reason your coming on the show is so important and so compelling is that in my own practice working with survivors of narcissistic abuse the issue of divorce as you can imagine is is one of the primary issues I'm dealing with it's either people who are in unhealthy marriages right and are thinking of dissolving the marriage people who are just coming out and making a decision do I don't tie and then the people who are already in the divorce process right you're you practice in California I do and each state is different in terms of how they address family law and so the guidance you're going to hear today is from an attorney who does practice in California while some of this may generalize it's absolutely critical that anyone listening to today's episode seeks out counsel and whatever region that you live in state Province Nation whatever so Demetria if you were to put together a pre-divorce checklist for someone who is about to commence a divorce from a narcissistic person right what are the things that you would recommend so number one that I tell my clients all gloves are off meaning the narcissistic partner is going to do whatever they can say whatever they want to win so if they can use your mental health they're going to do that if they can disclose your intimate details of your relationship they're going to do that if there can allow with their children they're going to do that so it's nothing is going to be quote unquote fair and it's not going to be amicable so you have to prepare for that that all gloves are off anything you shared with your partner you might hear it in court so you have to be prepared that they're going to say whatever do whatever because they want to win Dimitri how do you prepare people for that because that's a lot like what you just said is not that's not just some little thing off a to-do list right that's actually almost changing a world view right how do you prepare your clients at that point it's really hard to do because I've had clients that are attorneys that are therapists that work in the court and had to deal with oh my God all of my personal information is out right so we have to spend a lot of time understanding okay this is going to happen how are you going to cope because unfortunately I'm licensed as an attorney I'm not licensed as a therapist or to help others kind of deal with the emotional trappings of their divorce so I always recommend especially with narcissistic abusers that you have someone a coach a therapist or someone that can help you through your divorce especially during those times when you're reading the intimate details of your life and intimate details that you thought would only be shared with your partner and it's being used against you so so the first step of this pre-divorce checklist is like be prepared that the gloves are coming off the gloves are off what would you say is are some of the other items on this pre-divorce checklist your finances the narcissistic divorce will cost three to four times than the average divorce I've had clients that were married five years or less spend a hundred thousand dollars on a divorce and Counting that's twenty thousand dollars a year for the marriage put that in an investment and gotten a better yield on that oh yeah right it is very expensive because the narcissistic partner wants to win so they're gonna file every motion they're going to do all the things to win so you can have a five-year marriage but spend six years in your divorce I have so many other questions on that so but I want to keep going on your checklist and I'm gonna go back and ask my questions what else would you put on this checklist you have to be careful if you're residing in The Residence at the time of your divorce right because then a lot of narcissists know how to bait you to start making the case for the divorce and in California a restraining order is tied to who gets custody so I've seen where a narcissistic partner will try to get the other partner to hit them or to have these verbal disputes with them to attempt to get a restraining order because if there's a restraining order then the partner has to leave not the the abuser oh I see so you're talking about situations where people are starting the divorce process but they're still both occupying the marital residence right which is not uncommon in California because it costs a million dollars to live I can tell you as a psychologist where I have worked with couples where it's a narcissistic abuse situation and they don't both leave the residence I think that the psychological harm is ten times worse right and a lot of people still believe even though they've experienced the abuse that there's no way they would do that to me there's no way they would kick me out of the residence and I'm here to tell you they do and they will yeah because it's all about winning and then I think it's very important in addition to having a therapist to have a support system right everyone won't understand what you're going through but again your attorney is only equipped to deal with the business of your divorce despite what we tell you we are not equipped to deal with the emotional aspects of what you're going through and quite honestly you don't want to pay us to deal with um the emotional side I'm cheaper than you I know that for a fact that's just the Practical check the checklist right the legal part of this is you have to be prepared that narcissists tend to hire narcissistic attorneys okay talk more about that they choose people that will harass you and your attorney that write letters emails seven pages 10 pages can be every day or every other day extremely condescending and make you feel like oh wow did that happen or did I say that or is this really happening and so that is something to prepare for and if I had to learn myself how to disengage how to maneuver a narcissistic attorney that was a new phenomenon for me but it is very real and it is very dangerous okay so I'm gonna ask you a sort of a procedural question since they probably don't have all sit on one website narcissistic attorneys for family law like there's not one place you can find these people how do they find them do they just interview them and say oh you seem like a jerk I'm hiring you or is there reputation I think it's like attracts like right yeah I guess so yeah tend to go to the people who you're most familiar with and who feels good to you because it feels right you're right so if you're narcissistic and you go to someone and and they say I'm not doing that or I don't believe in that or no we're not going to do that you're not going to go with that person because you want to win and you want to control the show so if you can't do that that you're not going to select that attorney okay I got that that let's say there's two people in a divorce and the narcissistic person picks up the phone and inquires about retaining five or six top divorce attorneys right are those people then now not just a lot of time you're disqualified yeah depends on how much information is shared if you just call and make an appointment then no you didn't share anything that was important to the case if you call and pay a retainer fee to speak to the attorney and you speak for an hour on your case then it's likely that that attorney can be disqualified and if you pay a bigger retainer yes then the attorney will probably be disqualified is that a is that a thing that ever happens that a person who actually is not going to retain X or Y attorney but wants them not to be retainable as as it were by the let's call them the non-narcissistic partner the other person have you seen that happen yes especially in small cities because you know you know who the quote-unquote top attorneys are so if I disqualify all let's say 10 attorneys you have to start going out to different places to people that are less experienced in those cities so that's yes it is a thing okay all right anything else on this checklist Oh yes most definitely again we talked about the cost it's going to take probably double the time as well there are many cases there's two I have right now both married less than five years in their their divorces are set to go beyond the time they were married and so my clients get frustrated and Demetria can we just offer them x amount of dollars to go away but you know like I know it's not about the money it's about the control it's about the grandstanding in court and wherever else so a lot of times they don't want the money they want to keep trying to ruin financially and otherwise the other party it's about the game right right I mean that's that's really what it is they'll game the system draw it out expensive appeals delay on Discovery providing documents and all of that but then one day they find their new person that they want to marry ever oh so quickly right they split up on paper and they push it we gotta we gotta hurry up we got to hurry up aren't you the person who took like four months to come up with one year four years right and so it's really what it is it's like you said it's they have to be in control of the whole process it's not necessarily that they draw it out sometimes they really try to rush it right so quickly that the other person can't even get their feet under them because they want to quickly get usually it's remarried in my experience right I mean that takes me the idea of bifurcation yes right and so and bifurcation to me is always code for the narcissistic person wants to get married right right after they've made this other person's life miserable for three years right and then if you could just explain for our listeners what bifurcation is so they understand what that comes that's just a fancy way of saying that we're gonna get divorced on paper and we're gonna handle the issues of our divorce later meaning we're gonna handle custody and visitation division of assets and debts we're going to save that for a later date and you know that always works out really so when when the bifurcation is done and signed yeah those people are then legally single they can go enter into the contract of various the marriage is done even though all the other stuff's going on that is correct yeah because when I've seen that happen it was a rush for them to get into their new new relationship new marriage big white wedding the whole nine yards but this whole and and there's this whole big mess it's like ever people are coming over for dinner and you throw all the stuff in the closet right you know the closets all right so let's keep checklisting what else do you have your attorney you have to pick an attorney that is aware of what's going on or is Stern enough to stand up to the narcissistic attorney because they will be condescending they will drive you crazy and you have to learn how to draw the line because your client is kind of watching you as well so you want to be sure that you're not engaging in that that is something I had to learn because it is so easy when you're constantly attacked to want to attack back but that's exactly what they want how did you get good at this because I don't imagine that there's a law school class called how to practice family law against a narcissistic opposing counsel it was trial by fire because I found myself you know typing away my email they would type your email I would type an email and I said what am I doing I'm costing my client a lot of money and this is exactly what they want you to do is get in and trapped with with whatever their issues are but when I started saying okay thank you I have your email thank you very much it stopped interesting was was there one case and you realized that you almost had to sort of take a very different tack going forward because you learned so much about narcissism and narcissistic abuse in one case yes it was a case that is still going no but it was still every day as you know Miss Graves I'm called what we call a certified family law specialist so she would always say well as a certified family law specialist you should know XYZ so it was constant job passive aggressive very passive aggressive so I had to get to the point where I said well what is more important fighting with this person or getting our client to the Finish Line it is not easy I will not sit here and tell you it is easy it is not especially with my personality I want to fight back but yeah yeah I had to be the bigger person and it's better for my client but it is challenging you're having to do what I tell clients to do with narcissists all the time which is don't engage right that's it don't engage people don't like that they're like this person is talking nonsense about me like I and I said I understand that and in your case it's even more interesting because of your fiduciary responsibility that you do have to protect your client financially you're not supposed to sort of run the meter you know constantly because if you did answer all of those emails it would be a lot of money them dry right but not only that our clients are watching us right so if I'm getting upset and I'm getting emotional then my client's gonna get upset and emotional so I it's not easy and a lot of times I spend time with my client because sometimes they want to know well why are we fighting back and should we be doing this and I have to have the conversation no the more we Engage The more it's going to cost and it's not needing us anywhere what Demetria learned early in her career is a classic tactic that works with any narcissist in any scenario it's called gray rocking essentially acting like a boring gray rock when interacting you respond with brief disengaged answers in time the narcissist realizes that you're not going to engage and then they will back off did you know about narcissism before you became a family law attorney and before you started practicing independently no you did not no so this is where you learned it in doing it a lot of times you're like well is this narcissism or is this person just controlling so you do have to go and do your own research and you do have to go and start studying and learning and I think that's what a lot of other attorneys do that haven't had this experience and some judges right because we do use narcissism a lot now it's more discussed than before and if you don't Enlighten yourself it's hard to really take serious and know the signs and know how to engage in the process one thing I'd say to that though Dimitri is that it's almost less important to get the narcissism part right you're not it's not it's not your job to be a personality assessment expert right right but you know you so it would be very rare to have someone who was harmfully controlling but then it was also really empathic and nice right right like those things don't tend to co-locate that that very harmfully controlling person might also be coercive is very likely to be unempathic it's very likely to be entitled right you know is very likely to be validation seeking and on and on and on so this stuff kind of hangs together right and that hanging togetherness means it's I the one thing I've always had a concern about is whether attorneys or even Family Court judges are getting too Lost In The Weeds level is this a narcissist I said forget it let's write down the patterns that are concerning right when they're done if I were to look at the list I'm like probably right right you know but but I think that it's it's going to be very rare for there to be a friendly controlling person right right so I think that that's the other thing to almost lift that pressure off of all attorneys to say you have to be able to make that call but what you're looking for is consistency right right this is not just someone whose heart is broken and on the first day is saying like darn you you're not going to do this to me and then they're like all right she's not into me anymore I just gotta you know all right and you know what I'm saying that there's there could be that initial moment but that's not what we're talking about we're talking about things that are going on for years and years and years and again it feels like that they've taken a system and turned it into a game right keep giving me that checklist if we hit it all is there anything else you want to add to that the children aspect ah okay that's it that's the biggest one right attempt to align the children with their agenda and what they tend to do is buy toys buy iPhones by PlayStations and cry I've seen the crying act that's very manipulative and how can Mom do this to us mom is breaking up talking about the collection right um breaking up our family we're gonna have to move mom's taking away your house and children that is very very hard because children do not want to be in the middle if you're buying them all these toys and constantly talking bad about the other parent it's very confusing do them prepare them and say this is going to be yes everything I'm talking to you about we sit and have these conversations okay and so the intake process with someone that is experiencing narcissistic abuse is way longer than any other process because it's way more factors to consider and I think it's important you have to look at the Practical side of things and the legal side of things because I'm not there with you when you when you're at home or when you're getting your finances together and all these other things that are extremely important but also of the legal aspects and making sure you hire the right attorney for the situation that's going to deal with all of these aspects and then the last thing on my checklist is over litigation the case is going to be overly litigated I have a case right now we're in court at least once a month I get two to three different motions a lot of times I don't even know what the motion is and we're in front of the court and what's shifting in this particular case I think the court is on to the narcissistic partner okay and so when that happens and we know things start to shift and but it took us three years to get there and what happens in Family Court also judges change a lot yeah so a judge can be on to the narcissistic partner but then they leave and so we're starting all over ah and listen my what I've been told by clients and not just in California is that it was luck like if you got the judge who understood narcissism there was going to be a much more reason judgment but if you got a judge who didn't get narcissism the Judgment almost felt sadistic right even though it might have literally followed the family law code it followed it to the T right there was absolutely no recognition of the game that was being played in their courtroom the overly litigated pieces from my psychologist chair and these narcissistic divorces is it's not just the the cost it's not just a headache it's actually the trauma yes because I find that my clients will say I'm having nightmares I can't sit still I am constantly ruminating I am not in my life my body is falling apart the this I'm afraid to look at my inbox yes and so those sorts of things the phone pings they jump yes on rings they jump the email is it and to the point where some folks were saying I was not being good about checking my email running into some issues at work because it was that stressful right and it's not just about the over litigation as like now I have to show up to court again it's a 24 7 issue it is that does tremendous harm to people who are going through these divorce processes you have this checklist it's great I would say the biggest takeaway from your list to me is you have to you have to shift your expectations yes right yes and so that's that's a big one yes and you know you keep coming to this point because it seems like what a person needs is a really informed guide through this process I have often told any client who comes to me going through a narcissistic divorce I said you have to retain an attorney you are not doing this online right this is not going to be simple how do you recommend that a person choose an attorney if they're going to through a narcissistic divorce I think it's important to have your own checklist for your attorney have you have you worked with any cases that had narcissistic person on any side what is your approach to the the solution and if they're over talking you or not addressing the issues they probably do not have the experience or if they say things like oh I don't know about if I don't believe in narcissism and that sort of thing it is not the attorney for you or if it's someone that's a little more passive you know a little more Kumbaya it's not going to work it's not going to work for you boom that's it and then you do have to follow your intuition a lot of times we have a bad habit of not listening to our intuition especially in situations like that I think that's just as important as the attorney checklist I'm so glad you brought that up because I I cannot tell you Demetria the number of people who when they met were meeting with attorneys and they'd say listen am I soon-to-be access narcissistic I'm really worried about how this is going to unfold and we're told by the attorney everybody says their ex is narcissistic yep which to me is actually a version of gaslighting clients right it's completely minimizing their experience and it's it's dangerous because what that does that client is saying I guess you're right everyone going through divorce thinks that person was just rotten and that's why they're leaving and so maybe none of this is even you know maybe that's the wrong word and you're right they could get into that wrong attorney and I'm so glad you as an attorney are saying this if they are not listening to what you're saying I've heard this dozens and dozens of times the worst hardest cases are the folks who come to me who are already four to six months into the divorce process they're shredded and they're stuck with this attorney right and a lot of times I almost say people can get trauma bonded to their divorce attorneys just they were trauma bonded in that relationship they're working really hard they are trying for me we're this far down the path justify justify justify which is what happened in the relationship and I'll say this person is acting in your service right and I understand you don't want to throw more money at this problem with a new attorney but this could end up going really badly and what are the biggest mistakes people make when they come in they start the process of a narcissistic divorce that you've seen they engage from the from the get-go they're in the house they're fighting they're fighting in front of the children they engage from the start and that really sets them behind the eight ball because the narcissistic abuser is already planning what they're going to do on divorce they're probably recording you they probably have you on camera doing things that you're not supposed to do that's the the number one thing I work with clients I mean it just becomes the war of the cameras and the recording devices and I understand it like from the position of the non-narcissistic person they've said sometimes these cameras have been a game changer because I've actually taken the footage and showed it to my attorney and said this is what we're dealing with but on the same breath I have had to tell non-narcissistic folks going through divorce you might need to to hire someone to sweep this house right probably 50 of the time they found something I'm sure they have the other mistake I've seen is not having a plan these types of cases require a plan how are we going to address this case are we going to allow the other person to file first which I say yes because it gives them the illusion that they're in control and they get to set the stage so you need a plan for these cases it's not like the typical divorce where okay you file I file we go about our happy way you need a plan okay so basically the mistake is coming in without a plan right continuing to engage right and then having the wrong attorney I would love to share with you what I have seen what I thought were mistakes but I'm not an attorney okay okay and I'd love to hear what your take is on some of these some of the mistakes I've seen is people having a very unrealistic view of what's going to happen in the family court system the biggest being well people are going to see that I'm a really devoted parent and their sort of terrible and mean and if I show them all the mean emails well they're not going to give them any custody right wrong so wrong right right remember working once years ago with a family and this was like one of those really happy families too like everyone's loving each other and getting along and the parents have been married like a million years and everyone was happy daughters going through a narcissistic divorce and the family's like well they're going to see he's terrible and he's had affairs and he screams at the children they're going to give you all the custody of the kids and we're going to help you and we're going to move next door to you and they had it all figured out until the process began right and he started fighting for 50 custody which you know of course he got it because yelling at your wife or having an affair are not in Most states the grounds not certainly not in California right to not have custody this family was shattered they said we had no idea so they literally didn't know how the system worked right and is that would you say that that's a mistake I think that's not having a a adequate conversation with your lawyer because your lawyer should tell you in California there is a really big push to have 50 50. and then on top of that with the not a lot of attorneys and a lot of Judges not being aware of narcissism they're not looking into it that way they're saying how far do you live from each other yeah are the kids okay 50 50 custody right so there has to be very detailed conversations about the topics that are most important to you so you do know what to expect and then you have to stay clear of attorneys that lie to you if they tell you we're going to give you everything you want you want 100 custody you got it run because it's not realistic so glad you said that too which is that idea that an attorney May promise you the moon and stars oh this case I'm easily going to get you 80 no problem I've heard people say that and it was none of it was true and what then well your attorney should be telling you the pros and cons of your case right right you don't want you should not want to hear all the good things you should not want to hear I'm going to win the moon and the stars you want someone that tells you these are the pros of your case these are the cons this is where I think we're gonna have problems yep yep yep and but it is a it is such an emotional time that I also think what's challenging is people can't really hear what's being said right that's a big one too honestly when they're coming in your office you know there's this whooshing sound in their ears and they're probably hearing about half of what you're saying so things in writing and all that would make a huge right huge difference well that brings me back to my original point that we are here to help you with the business of your divorce so the more you can have support outside of what we do the better you can potentially hear what we're saying so let's talk about mediation okay because this is one that comes up all the time mediation is put out there as a what's considered maybe a more civil and less costly approach is mediation ever a realistic option for people who are going through a divorce with a narcissistic person I think it's only a choice when they have new Supply Supply or narcissistic Supply is the validation that the narcissistic person wants and needs this can be praise attention a sense of power control and domination like they might feel if they are commandeering a divorce when narcissistic people have enough Supply we see the charm Charisma Swagger and arrogance these relationships are notoriously one-sided with the narcissist needing Supply and the rest of us giving it so if they're trying to get out of the relationship fast and they really want out and they're ready to give you what you want because they're focused on something else yeah then it might work otherwise it doesn't because it's in direct contradiction to who a narcissistic person is right because they know everything so if you know everything you can't hear the mediator you can't hear what they're trying to tell you you can't hear them and they want to win and mediation is not about winning it's about compromising and so if they haven't moved on and and they're still kind of focused on this process it's probably not a great idea I found your example really interesting Demetria if your narcissistic person has already found new Supply you know that they found a new person to validate invariably in a divorce is that they've met someone new right which again narcissistic people they're and because they don't go deep with anyone they're able to replace you with someone new and very quickly if they didn't already while you were still married right so right they're they're they have their new Supply I that's fascinating to me is that you found that in some of those cases the person's found their new Supply they're feeling in a rush to get engaged and to get married that that might be a point if that narcissistic person though is so sort of feeling such a pressure that they just want to get you gone and radiation could potentially but you better hope they don't break up with the supply because then the focus is back on you and we're right back to where we started so now we get to this interesting place of the language people use words like narcissism and gaslighting again I've been told this by my clients will say when you say these words in the courtroom you're sometimes viewed as the problem yes can you talk crazy okay can you talk to us about that yes because I think it's so I don't want to say overly used in our society but I think it's it's a New Concept we're learning more about it and some people don't want to be bothered and so most judges have 20 to 30 cases on their calendar and so if you you go off script and start talking about things that they're not familiar with then you of course are the crazy one and maybe we should look at you or maybe you're the narcissist because you keep bringing it up courts don't want to hear it so you have to be very careful with the language you use do you coach clients who are going through narcissistic divorces on that saying we're not I get that your your exes or soon to be X is a narcissist but I get that they're gaslighting I get all that we're not saying these Works do you prepare them to find different ways to talk about this stuff in front of a judge talk about the issue at hand this person did not do the exchange at this time I am concerned because of XYZ Demetria I want to understand when a person has you have a client they have a narcissistic ex who has a narcissistic attorney are there any legal guard rails in place to stop this process from becoming full-on ongoing harassment yes and no right so there are codes in the family code that can sanction a party for over litigating there's even codes now to section the attorney but doesn't happen in practice not really interesting okay there might be a slap on the wrist a warning here um but not anything significant so what that means what I'm hearing is that it is conceivable some this this entire process can be commandeered by someone if they have the attorney who's willing to do it for them to turn into a place of harassment for years I've had a case for almost five years they've filed over 90 motions 90. to what end like those how different can each of these so I worked my client and I are just like here we go wow what ends it is there a point where a person who holds some form of authority through the stage or the courts or this County or whatever can finally say clocks time's up we've run out right is that a thing well we eventually get to a trial and that would eventually end it but we have to get to the trial oh so the trial is sort of the punctuation mark at the end of the sentence right but my understanding is it does take a long time it does take a long time is that because all of this other stuff has to happen first or is it because the courts are backed up or both it's both okay but a lot of times we have to do Discovery and that's you know that's a way to extend the case oh I didn't get this oh I need to do another deposition oh I need these documents so and for our listeners just want to interrupt you but I just because we're using this word Discovery I know you know it but my understanding of what Discovery is is sort of the the providing all of the appropriate documentation of and anything that's needed to be able to to get what's so that decisions can be made in the case somebody write about that right so it could be tax documents it could be a bank financial bank statements anything reads even could be medical records related to children but then when you're in this process Discovery is all your text messages to my client for the last five years all your text messages to your mother for the last five years so it's another form of harassment yeah because it doesn't solve the case can there is there ever an authority that says no you're not getting the text messages to the mother that's not a thing like no no no no so they people can just ask for anything that they want and because they can make up any reason why they need the messages to your mom right you told your mom you were going to give her the house so that becomes a way to try to obtain text messages I see I see what I tell clients who especially when I get them in the beginning is I I say to them in about six months you're going to start regretting that you filed for divorce you're going to think you've made the biggest mistake of your life and I want you to know that is coming because of what this process is to the degree I can give them some psycho education that they're going to ask for things that are you can't imagine this is going to become your second full-time job right pulling all this documentation getting all the stuff together you are going to feel trauma I tell I like literally this is it this is what's about to come so the way we've been talking about things Dimitri we have definitely been talking about folks who have money what do you advise to a person who is about to approach a divorce they do not have resources maybe they're renting an apartment but it's the stuff with custody and you know a child support spousal whatever um how do you advise people in those situations where it may very well be contentious around things like custody right but they simply don't have Financial Resources the beauty of LA County at least is there are a lot of self-help Sinners that will assist with the documents there are a lot of organizations that will also give you an attorney if you meet their criteria so you might have to do a little leg work and search out who can help you where you can get the documentation a lot of the Court's website has all of the information you need and they try to do a really good job of outlining what you need to do step by step how to file the documents there are also pro bono attorneys that take on some of these cases free of charge but we all know that that's not a lot because you know attorneys cost money but most attorneys will provide a free consultation okay so do not go into court without at least talking to someone to at least getting some of the tools they might not give you everything but getting some understanding of what to expect in court how it's going to happen how you should present your evidence at least try to have a conversation so you're not going in blind and not knowing what to expect ask the attorney hey do you know this judge what can I expect what should I say say how should I dress should I address the other party at least you have some framework of what to expect even if you can't afford representation okay so however it's got to be challenging in this case absolutely what about other issues like even around immigration status or anything like that which could leave a person feeling like they're at Peril right how does that work immigration status is not presented in Family Court okay it is not that's good to know an issue that the court will consider and courts actually get a little irritated when people try to bring that up because it's not part of the family law experience okay that's good to know and then most courts also have interpreters as well so I would consider bringing your own if you think the Court's going to be short staffed or if they don't have your particular translator but most of the times they do have interpreters available at the court so that they're hearing there are workarounds but it's going to be harder I mean I think that there's no sugar coating this as if a person is going is under resourced going through this experience right and again they're so psychologically wrecked right that working their way through even through these low-cost resources just feels it's challenging too overwhelming it's really challenging yes what about when you have one partner who has very few resources right but the other partner is is more resourced right so they they have a job they make the money they're financially controlling they financially control all the money what about those situations that party can go in and ask that the narcissistic partner pay for their attorney fees now that's going to probably come with a lot of I mean they can you can ask for anything you want a lot of challenges yeah but that is the standard in family law if one party has the ability to pay they will be on the hook for fear they will now will you actually get it is the question the court can order it will you get it is an issue okay I have also seen where the the non-abusing party loses their attorney because the narcissistic party is not paying the fees and so a lot of times the non-abusing party is left defending themselves because they can't afford or the other side is not providing the appropriate fees okay so and I've seen that happen too so you've raised something though that I don't I want to ask about okay I've seen this one happen over and over and over again which is this person narcissistic person making tons of money right bringing it in living large now this process starts and oops lost my job yes okay all right close my business my business right the big one right close my business lost my job so now this starts this entire game around support payments and all of that can you talk a little bit about those scenarios in a narcissistic divorce well thankfully if they are employed we can do wage garnishments and that sort of thing to make sure that you know support is paid but it is a challenge if that person is self-employed there's nothing to attach to and so then the non-narcissistic party is trying to survive so then this process becomes less important because I don't have money how am I going to take care of the children how am I going to live and so now they're off their game why the narcissistic Partners going on their game plan this sort of sick and twisted sort of sense of pride of like look I suck it to this person I I I want I won I I and I and may still have resources and and whatnot that they can access because all they did was step away like you said from the self-employment kind of a setup and that's why I always try to talk to to clients throughout the process about the practicality of everything because of course I do this every day right so this is my job this is what I do but how are you going to live what is the plan if he takes everything away what are we doing because you're not going to want to do this process if you don't have anywhere to go at night yes so that's extremely important to me yes yes okay what does community property really mean community property really means that all the property and the debt for that matter that we accrue during the marriage belongs to the both of us okay so if we buy property regardless of whose name it's in are assumed to be community property okay at cars cars furniture furniture everything everything it doesn't matter if you bought it from your bank account or my bank account or your salary or my salary okay I'm going to ask you a funny tricky strange question so I've worked with more than a few people or with narcissistic cheaters oh okay and so the narcissistic cheater he'd buy an expensive item a watch a piece of jewelry for the for the for the other person okay special friend that thing now belongs to someone else but presumably these joint assets right were used to buy a 50 000 gift right how does that play out in a divorce it really depends on the station in life right because if 50 000 is really like 500 it's probably not going to be a thing a thing but if 50 000 is twice your salary for the month or whatever it is it's going to be a thing and you might have to give that back to the community so in other words but that 50 000 may have to come back in it's a really it's a it depends kind of scenario I know of a circumstance where a person found a receipt for an important expensive pieces that equal to about fifty thousand they weren't hers right and so then she knew that this was purchased for someone oh that's definitely a divorce issue do you ever advise a person in a divorce with a narcissist where there's going to be all this tuning and throwing that if they can find a number that works for them that would be less than the 50 that they're in title to might even be 30 but they can live with the number right take it and go even though it's not what the law might have awarded them uh all the time all the time interesting why don't you talk more about that yes what is it worth to you what is your mental health worth to you what is your piece work to you what is your you know Freedom work to you and some people sometimes I have to you know talk them back up some people say I don't want anything I walk away from all the houses all the stuff I just want to go let's talk about infidelity okay okay narcissistic infidelity that because the fact is not all relationships where there's infidelity end up in divorce frankly in fact a lot don't don't narcissistic infidelity seems to have a little bit of a flair to it it's either repeated yes it's in your face in their person's gaslighted about it whatever it is when you and and they've already if you're married to a narcissistic person they've already been abusing the heck out of you anyway so treating you terribly and then there's this whole other thing happening and so in your experience when infidelity is a driver of that divorce do those divorces have a different feel to you from the perspective of you representing that non-narcissistic person right they're very dramatic from the start but again we're managing expectations because unfortunately in California we have a no-fault state so infidelity is important to the person that it happened to yeah but it's not important in the context of the divorce so I'm having to say yes let's talk about it I want to hear about it because it's important to you but unfortunately when we go into court judge doesn't want to hear about it that must be a big part again about the expectations right and I think that's a shocker for people who think like it isn't that don't you get like points for that no and then some people get mad at me because I'm honest right everyone doesn't you know appreciate the honesty I've had people not hire me go hire someone that told them what they wanted to hear and then come back because the honesty is important I'm not going to tell you yes go tell the court all the times he cheated on you because the court just doesn't want to hear about it interesting have you ever represented the narcissist yes okay talk about it yes I think that was before I really understood what was going on and when I was a lot younger in my career where the money meant something more to me than um my reputation and they know how to control you they know how to get out of you what they want and the money is Flowing so in your career before you learn all money is not good money and your reputation matters and you know you have constant money coming in and that's a very hard experience because you have no client control because they know more than you without a law degree they know more than the judge so it's very hard to maintain the case now the next thing I want to go talk about why do people get divorced Ike has been an hour on this topic but I heard this quote before and it really stuck with me I think people spend more time preparing for the wedding than they do the actual marriage people aren't talking they don't know what they want the marriage to look like they don't know what makes them happy they haven't talked to their spouse about what makes them happy so people are just getting married and then trying to figure it out once they get in the relationship I think what's also challenging though is that the narcissistic relationship so add a whole level of challenge to that right yes because with all the conversations in the world we're never going to make this relationship healthy and then people say well shouldn't people have figured this out before they got married ish you know the idea of this whole trauma bonding justifying um not quite getting what this is maybe I'm expecting too much from a person maybe I'm the one who's too sensitive I mean the whole Litany of things we talk about on this podcast all the time that folks are kind of in a storm and so then there is this idea of like but I really do want to get married I really do want a family if their friends are all getting married there's this whole agenda that's happening that has nothing to do and so I think I saw some stuff that made me uncomfortable but there was enough boxes being ticked I'm like oh if there ever there was a time to not compromise it's before you agree to this but even once they're in it the justifying all that stuff continues and communication and all of that stuff that's all off the table people are in a mess that they just simply don't understand and if they don't have the language of narcissism right they just don't even know what they're dealing with and most of the time they're blaming themselves right I wish there was there were more procedures to get in I wish there were more conversation more procedure to get in and to force people to really think about the commitment I really agree and you know what I think part of the problem is a lot of that has happened in sort of more religious spaces you know what I'm saying like you know marriage counseling you know these these six sessions you might have to and I think that's tricky because what I I think that's designed like let's talk about things but I actually mean sort of like for example when a patient comes to my practice there's an informed consent right where I'm kind of listing everything that could kind of go wrong right nobody is signing informed consent for marriage no there is no form no they're not even talking about it that's a thing yeah informed consent for marriage I never thought about it until now like please know that can you imagine a lot of people and there'd be two doors if you still want to give me that'd be that door and the other door there's the bar right there right just have a comment I want the bar I think I'm gonna take a pass on that one okay so when you're in a narcissistic relationship and things go wrong the one thing a narcissistic person cannot do is regulate disappointment no they cannot a job offset uh not getting the bonus they thought not getting the promotion not getting the money whatever it may be things not working out the way they want they lack the flexibility to roll with that right and so a marriage that was already a little precarious because this person was really difficult to start with when things go wrong it all when it falls apart it falls apart colossally and narcissistic people always blame everybody else for what's gone wrong right this is your fault this is your mother's fault this is your sister's fault this is the kids fall this is the dog's fault and then when the divorce process starts this is an unfair process this is the entire process is stacked up against me victim victim victim victim right and that's how they go that problem to that process but a lot of narcissists high too they can really hide who they are charm your socks off until you're married Demetria notes that narcissism can hide behind charm it's not that they hide it's that The Superficial charm is a tactic meant to get validation and that is on when they feel in control and in power but lurking underneath at all times is the rage that comes out when they feel insecure so they can be very Charming in a courtroom oh yes and what's challenging about this is if a person's gone through a narcissistic divorce they often look crushed okay they look crushed and broken by the process so they can look hollowed out they may be hunched over they may be crying they may not actually even look well put together because they've been through something right the narcissistic person comes in there they're Charming they're grandiose they've got they're they're so privileged they feel like they belong there they almost they're acting like they're buddies with the judge that's what the judges need to be able to see through right because that picture is maybe of like well maybe this person just was like there's something wrong with them the other person and this person seems to have it really well you sort of put together have you ever had that situation where your client was really sort of broken down by this process and then the Charming narcissist comes in and waltzes into the courtroom and everyone's thinking well they've got it all together I have and I've had to have a hard conversation if we go in here crying it's not going to be good for us so let's cry now let's take a break let's go have coffee and then we're gonna go back in because unfortunately it is a sign of weakness and when we go into court again we want to present our facts our case and get to the court what we want but if we go over there like you said slouched over crying your message is overshadowed by that it's unfortunate because there's a reality to it the reason that person is hunched over is because they've gone through something it's not you know what I'm saying it's another not at all weak in fact that's a really strong response right experiencing something real but we the judges do not understand trauma right but this is what I tell my clients too again this is a business and there's a way you have to present your business we have to deal with our emotions and our trauma and everything we went through but unfortunately we cannot present that in the courtroom so let's talk about you're not your custody it's messy enough already and this is where all the emotions come in because most people say car dining table house even whatever right I want my kids right how do you help people through this process when they're starting right and going through a narcissistic divorce and this custody issue of minor children is in play it depends on war in the case because I've had a case where the narcissistic partner went and tried to win custody before the case even started right so when we're in that circumstance and clearly that's a different strategy and sometimes if you even start with 50 50 it kind of unravels on its own because sometimes the narcissistic partner cannot sustain it especially if there's new Supply that they're focused on they don't even want their children 50 of the time yeah no they don't but they'll fight for 50 because they know they're going to mess with the other person but then it falls apart and they can't do it so and the fall apart process because the decision a court decision may be made for 50 right the fall apart would then be the documentation of this pickup didn't happen they didn't take them for any of the weekends they were supposed to they disappeared but they don't care about that because they won they won the 50 50. right but then your client now is now going to have to mount up the legal argument and go back into court yep right so that's the thing is that to modify and that's not you're not going to get that appointment right away and so while you're waiting those gaps of time got the 50 50 judgment narcissistic person messing up messing up messing up new court dates all the way over here right but in this entire process here what's happening is that that narcissistic person the narcissistic ex narcissistic co-parent is lording it over them hey I got 50 don't you plan a vacation I got 50 they don't take the 50 but the court dates all the way out here this is so psychologically difficult for people oh yes who are holding up 80 custody right they're not getting the financial support necessarily if they're entitled to it for 80 custody right but then when they try to plan a life for these children it's exactly then where that narcissistic co-prant will say well I do have 50 and if you don't do that well then you are in violation of the course of 50 50. yeah that's the game I've seen played over and over and over and what's sad to me are the kids are watching yeah they see what's happening they're the most impacted right this sticks with them and a lot of children do not have the language to express how they're feeling and what that's like I also think of the number of people who sort of wait until their children are either coming in 16 17 years old or full on 18 like 18th birthday yes celebration of my 18th trials 18th birthdays I'm rolling up to court and I'm filing for divorce right where the custody stuff is off the table right the big question I guess why can't the courts just do what's right to protect children and instead get caught in this well by the by the law they're allowed to have this what are your thoughts on that I think courts think they're doing the best that they can with the information that they have right because we both know narcissists can hide some of this Behavior they can present the best of themselves and let's say I'm use myself for an example if I have a mental issue and I went to a mental health health facility for a couple of months you're using that against me so now it's how can she take care of a child if she has these mental health concerns or how can she take care of a child if she works 80 hours a week and so they know how to use things against you to make themselves look better and hide the narcissistic trait the thing that I try to work with clients on is can we get you set up in your attorney set things out the right way that you make the narcissistic person snap that's the game I mean I hate to say game but it's the game right you know is how can we get them and part of it is you know you not reacting you staying strong you coming in looking like your Fierce self right and your new suit right into the courtroom right that it's anything that can make them again snap so that their personality will show to the to the judge there are other players when there are there are custody when there's children in custody there are people who represent the child in in proceedings yes these folks are a blessing and a curse because a lot of them don't understand narcissism right and it also depends on who they align with some aligned with the narcissist I know that and that can be very very dangerous very dangerous can you explain what a guardian ad Lite them is from a legal perspective right that's just someone that's appointed as the guardian of the child if something for whatever reason either parent is not in the capacity to care for their kid okay and so the guardian ad litem is someone that parents choose or it's somebody Who's acting sometimes the court has to choose if the parents are unable to choose okay so this is a person who's in the child's life yes okay and sort of helping represent their interests in the court process and what I see mostly in family court at least here is either Minor's counsel yes which is a lawyer that is appointed to for the child's voice we also have miners interview where minors are interviewed by the judge to talk about whatever the issue may be and then we have custody evaluations where someone that's like a therapist comes and evaluates the situation and makes a recommendation for the court what they deem to be the children's best interest the bigger problem to me is sometimes they don't have enough time to really get in into the nitty-gritty what's going on and most people don't have money to to pay for a private evaluator that can be 15 to 20 000 that's exactly and then again if that person aligns with one of the parties it's not giving the court adequate information and then Minor's counsel most parties don't have money to pay for the minor to have a lawyer but I know for me and my practice I I don't like kids to have to be interviewed or have lawyers that is very traumatic they do not want to do that it's very traumatic and Okay so this is another really important one the kids are often if it's not hurt sometimes even traumatized by this entire process yes what if you have a situation where one parent very much wants therapy for the children but the other parent is saying no and you they have set up their medical care is that both parents have to sign up on joint legal custody yes which is what most parents tend to have as joint legal custody meaning they both can make legal decisions about the child but I will say family court is very very supportive of therapy for children especially in divorce settings so you better have a really good reason why you're objecting to therapy and why you feel it's not in the best interest because what can happen is you can lose your joint deciding Authority and that one parent can have the the authority to decide if the kids are going to do therapy or not if the one parent is trying to stop something like there has to be a really good reason okay all right yes yeah however I have seen though that that the parent who is trying to refuse therapy could delay the first all the processes yes they're waiting for the hearing right until they have that so it could be months sometimes even a year the child can't get therapy because you can't get both parents um judges saying that regardless that is not child focus and if you don't come up with a good reason right I need to know why the other parent shouldn't have so legal custody I think that the hardest thing that people learn is that family court is actually not designed to protect children that's not its function and that's what a lot of people think it is and sadly though this system is harming children I have worked with adult survivors of these of these court systems I'm thinking of one woman in particular and she said I was destroyed by what happened in that family court that 50 50 custody yes damn near broke me if the function of family court is not to protect children what is the function of Family Court well they will tell you it is to protect the children and get the party's divorced but as we're talking that that's not the case it's not the case so but right now that it's pushing the cases through family court has so many cases in front of them especially post pandemic so they're not spending the time on each case to really get down to the details of what's going on they can only do with what is presented to them by the parties and a lot of times you cannot have or we can't see the narcissistic behavior because they're hiding behind their mask and they do it really well to me family court is a place where this legal contract called marriage is on is taken apart yes and I think that that contract part I mean it's it's that's not very romantic and it's not sexy like a honeymoon or a wedding cake but it is a contract it is a contract and when we take contracts apart ahead of their term there's a process yes and then what if the what if the narcissistic co-parent keeps trying to drag the other person back into court over everything from the hundred dollars for karate lessons to the new pair of snow boots like every little expenditure they're trying to adjudicate how do you handle those cases for your clients I have told my clients to keep as great as records as possible document everything I paid you ten dollars on February 23rd for karate whatever it is to document it because nine times out of ten if the narcissistic partner did not win you were going back to court okay what is your guidance around family communication apps like my family wizard and I'm talking parents love them and I think our family wizard has the tone meter so if you feel if you feel that you know you might use Choice words it has a a tone meter and they tell you the alternative to what you want to say imagine if we had tone meters we could wear around our necks we walked around the world be a really quiet world right um I think you and I are both so familiar with the apps but people listening may not be so my family wizard my family was it has a tone meter yes can you talk a little bit about how that plays out on the app because I think it's a really great feature so in Family Court sometimes the court has to order that parties have to use an app to communicate yes with one another and so what our family wizard does if you send an email because you're supposed to communicate with your other party your other parent on the app it'll tell you hey check your tone when you send this email and that's based on the words that's based on the words that you put in the message to the other party and I also say with the apps keep it short please don't give of seven page letter but see that's what narcissistic people do if they do give seven page letters and you know the features of you know our family wizard talking parents is that they create a a record a record that is actually admissible in court yes and that starts to unravel the narcissistic uh mass as well if the court continuously sees seven page letters that's exactly right does the did the courts mandate the use of the apps is the parties can either agree on their own or if the communication is just so far out of control the court will mandate okay okay you know what's interesting about narcissistic folks and divorces at some point the kids sort of feel like a nuisance to them and sort of put cramp in their style and all of that they could do the Disneyland parent thing for a minute and show up and be all that they're not really interested in the hard work of parenting in many of these cases most of the cases I've seen once they have one Whatever custody the schedule they were seeking it falls apart yeah yeah yeah yeah nine times out of ten I think there are folks out there who think that going in front of a judge will be this moment when someone is going to Bear witness in this really public kind of judicially way that someone's going to Bear witness that this person's a narcissist and there's going to be This Magic Moment it'll be recognized the judge is going to see it it's going to unmask the narcissist in this really public way and that the person going through this will feel whole what you got to say about that that makes for great TV but unfortunately that's not realistic yeah yeah and and do you ever have clients who think think that they think that's going to happen people want to be Vindicated yes they do they want to be yeah they want to be seen but unfortunately it's not in court yeah I think it's a human desire that somebody especially a person in a position of authority will bear witness your pain right and I think that that if people are not prepared that that's not going to happen it can actually feel like a catastrophic moment right of even in this place where I thought that rightness and Justice was going to be delivered it wasn't seen what is the rest of my life going to look like like when we have the sense of the world is an unjust place at such a big level it can actually be this really big existential hole that people fall into but I'm gonna refer them back to our expectation conversation yeah yeah of what the court is what their role is and what we can expect from experience so it's got before the person goes in they need to be aware of that you know right this isn't a TV show where this is a grand moment and everything is seen and the person or people are clapping at the end and it's you're crying and your attorney's hugging you sorry to bust the bubble yeah yeah no it's good to bust bubbles because otherwise it's it can get messy can you tell people where to find you I am everywhere definitely yes you are social media um Demetria Graves I'm on Instagram Facebook you can email me at info graveslawfirm ca.com I have my own podcast legally uncensored where I talk about a lot of these issues as well you're such a fresh wonderful voice thank you so glad that we again selfishly so glad that everyone's like I need an attorney I got someone for you I've got a referral so I can't thank you for taking time out of your very busy schedule really important work you do to share this with I've learned so much and I'm so grateful to you so thank you well thank you I'm very very happy to be here thank you here are my takeaways from my conversation with Demetria let's break down demetria's pre-divorce checklist for divorce from a narcissistic person which is about the psychological shifts you will need to make within yourself her checklist highlights the issue of expectations and mental preparation she reminds us that one the gloves are off and this is likely to be contentious and ugly to the degree that it is possible you need to psychologically prepare for this number two it will be more expensive than non-narcissistic divorces issues such as over litigation mean that cost overruns will happen and that means it is essential you hire a good attorney who understands this strategically so they can be mindful of their time and your money number three they may hire an antagonistic attorney themselves it can feel like you are fighting two people Demetria reminds us that while this can be overwhelming and anxiety producing it is your attorney's job to handle the arrogance and the nastiness of the opposing attorney you just need to be ready for it number four she also stresses that people must have realistic expectations about custody and co-parenting next in her checklist is the idea that you need to hire a solid attorney that understands narcissism if you are met with pushback like everyone thinks their ex is a narcissist during a divorce well then your concerns may not be taken seriously enough find an attorney that hears your concerns without minimizing them because if they do not know what they are up against the divorce may end up being more expensive and take longer she also strongly encourages clients to work with an attorney that has experience navigating the narcissistic divorce landscape she also warns against choosing an attorney that is too passive and assumes things will just work their way out but Above All Else she encourages trusting your intuition in my next takeaway the key mistakes that dimitria highlighted were that people over engage from the start don't have a plan and have the wrong attorney this may be the fight of your life so being strategic tactical and as supported as possible is essential especially in a system that doesn't really care if your ex is a narcissist in this next takeaway as part of her pre-during and post-divorce checklist Demetria strongly encourages people going through a narcissistic divorce work with a therapist a lawyer is not a therapist and therapy is the place to work through the strong emotions that this process can bring up now this takeaway is important not everyone can afford to hire an attorney and Demetria provided information on some resources to consider exploring if the narcissistic person has an attorney you will need one as well and working with local pro bono and legal aid organizations can give you some essential guidance as you go through this process so in this next takeaway when it comes to working through the custody process Demetria had three key recommendations the first was documentation documenting everything and presenting hard data is far more important than saying this is toxic or the other parent isn't following the plan second was the use of family communication apps that allow you to keep a running record of communication finally she again highlighted the importance of therapy not just for the parent but also for children and finally for those of you not married yet this episode may actually have more relevance than you realize if you don't want to have to get out then pay attention to how you come in people are able to Lavish attention on the Minor Details of wedding seating arrangements and honeymoon hotels that's fine but the same level of attention and detail have to go into talking through and planning what you want a marriage to look like we've floated the idea of an informed consent form for marriage and while that may not exist yet there is no reason you can't explore these issues uncomfortable though they may be before you sign that marriage license

Channel: Navigating Narcissism

Views: 314,799

Keywords: Navigating Narcissism, Navigating Narcissism Podcast, Dr. Ramani Podcast Navigating Narcissism, Navigating Narcissism Dr. Ramani, Navigating Narcissism Podcast Dr. Ramani, Dr. Ramani Podcast, Dr. Ramani Durvasula, Demetria Graves, Lawyer, Divorce Attorney, expert, relationship, family, pre divorce checklist, court, courtroom, harsh reality, narcissistic relationship, navigating narcissism, podcast, vodcast, Dr. Ramani, psychologist, gaslighting, NPD, therapy, relationships, red table talk

Id: 1LLig82mkxg

Length: 73min 35sec (4415 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 06 2023