CIA Spy: "Psychopaths & Manipulators TARGET This Type Of Woman!" (Spot A Con Man)| Andrew Bustamante

when you put the four of those things together you kind of create the perfect concoction for a con man to step in and they leave you high and dry broke alone and dejected you may not even realize they're manipulating you until it feels like it's too late we women often ignore our gut feelings even when they're glaring at us because well we don't want to make a fuss we don't want to embarrass ourselves and possibly make a falce accusation and some times we may ignore the creepy guy giving us that creepy look in the corner so Andrew help how do we know if it actually is just our imaginations running away with us because we've watched too many episodes of True Detective or if they really are master manipulators and another dirty John or Tinder swindler in Disguise the place to start with how what action to take is actually to understand how you yourself are wired and there is there's a lot of empirical evidence out there to show the difference between the core fundamental WI ing of a female versus a male specifically in Western culture so I'm going to reference something called the Myers Briggs type indicator mbti it's a personality test uh that standard that's used all across government agencies it's used in universities it's used in the corporate workplace which means introverted sensor feeler judger almost 20% of women one out of every five women fall into the isfj category why is that important to what you're asking because that category specifically means that women make gut instinct decisions so they make decisions from their gut but they collect data from Facts that's what the s means the s means that you use your five senses to collect information so you're using your what you see what you hear what you smell to collect the information around you but with all that factual information you make your decisions not based on the information but based off of your gut and then because you're also a J J stands for judger that means that you're trying to fit your decisions into a rubric that's been defined for you by an outside force well what is that outside force in Western culture it's Western Society so what that means is women see things hear things smell things that aren't right but then because they're trying to fit within a western Society they know that if they call attention to the thing that they distrust they might be judged as paranoid [ __ ] uh who knows what right silly stupid so then their gut instinct their gut feeling is Maybe I'm Wrong so I'll just wait and then they're introverted so they don't have a lot of external friends that they really trust when you put the four of those things together you kind of create the perfect concoction for a con man to step in and manipulate all four categories and because one in five women fall into these categories you can see why there's such a high prevalence of conmen all right so help me understand then Andrew how do we start to then break it and how do manipulators actually identify that you're that type of person to go after in the first place this so this is this is where it starts to get really interesting right your there is not a single thing wrong with being an isfj nothing wrong there's no inherent weakness if anything there's an inherent strength in being isfj because when you take what the typical man is the typical man is almost the exact opposite right entp is the average man right and I'm an entp my wife is an isfj I wouldn't be surprised if you and Tom are very similar do you mind breaking down what entp is entp means extrovert intuitor thinker perceiver which compared to your isfj they're Polar Opposites right extroverts mean they like being around people introverts mean they like being alone like meaning they generate energy when I get tired I want to be around people when my wife gets tired she wants to be alone that's how we recharge that's your e and your I intuitors collect information based off of their experience and what they think might be happening I'm an intuitor so I might see something and be like uh I don't know if I really trust what I see my wife is a sensor when she sees something she believes it that's what the numbers say that's what the color is it's not going to rain because there's no there's no clouds in the sky I look at the sky and I'm like it could rain soon just I just I think it could so we Intuit information right that's your n versus your S I am a uh I am a thinker my wife is a feeler I make decisions based off of information that I Inuit it you can see how problematic that is I'm making decisions based off of what I think might happen my wife makes decisions based on her gut instinct and then of course J and P she makes she tries to fit a Norm that's been defined for her that's a j i Am A P I make my own Norm and to hell with everything else so you can see how we're different but you can also see how when you have the right mix they complement each other almost perfectly because now she can be the source of real data I can make a rational based decision off of her real data she can always keep me true to the framework of society I can always challenge her to question the framework of society and etc etc so that's that's what happens when personalities complement each other what happens a lot of times is that same complimentary relationship just like an entp can Empower an isfj or an isfj can Empower an entp in too many instances you end up having very successful women isfjs because they know how to fit into a category they know how to do a good job in a corporation they know how to do a good job uh in society they know how to be accepted by their peers they know how to volunteer for the church or for the school they know how to be awesome people and the vast majority of of of isfj women they are awesome people they're the people you and I look up to right but they're they're vulnerable to this entp type that can come in and basically be all the things that they're not because like all human beings we're attracted to the opposite we're attracted to what we aren't so when you see somebody come in who's super comfortable in a social setting that's an interesting person to you when you see someone come in who isn't paralyzed by gut instincts or constantly like struggling to make a decision you're very interested and attracted to that person and when you come with a person who says like oh I know the society needs me to do this but to hell with that I'm going to do my own thing that's an attractive person so what happens is conmen who are wired with that entp type personality and have their mind intent on doing malicious things they can weave themselves in with these successful women and manipulate those successful women almost intrinsically because they are just naturally doing the thing that that woman is attracted to seeing and unless she is aware of what her vulnerabilities are she's blind to how she's even being duped it sounds like a the The Narcissist with the empath which is why the narcissist is usually the grandiose the loud the extrovert they're like everyone loves them the woman's more of the subdued and that's where um at least from the understanding or the research I've ever done is that when the narcissist finds that empathy that's that perfect fit because they know exactly their characteristics in order to manipulate them correct and and when we talk about narcissism you have to understand that narcissism is usually constrained by ages so 25 to 35 is when human beings are in their Peak narcissist years interesting until we start getting to the far extreme where you actually have a personality disorder like narcissistic personality disorder but for most of us 25 to 35 is our Peak narcissist years it makes sense it's also when we're trying to be the most successful we're trying to be competitive so we lean into narcissistic Tendencies but when you have someone who is on the far end of that extreme and they are paired with a true empath somebody who cares and cares about the narcissist you're essentially feeding the narcissist exactly what they're looking for they're looking for attention they're looking for validation they're looking for for someone to give them Authority and credibility in some aspect of life and that's exactly what a empathic person wants to do they they want to show you that they care that you're validated that they hear you that they see you and it's a it's a very unhealthy and and dangerous pot of soup um all right so I now that you've broken that down which that was so clear it's really clicked into my brain now of like how those two um can be beautiful together but obviously how it can also be detrimental to us I'd love to take the real world example of dirty JN this is something that so many women talk about but it's just one of millions and millions and millions of stories that it just went to the extreme so i' would love to really break down the dirty John story what happened how we as women got manipulated by him um and then how it transpired into such a dangerous situation that unfortunately is only too common I think yeah so the dirty John Story and there's lots of details I'm sure we can talk about but what catches me immediately is the age the ages and question right because dirty John's Target was a divorced woman over the age of 50 so here you have a woman who has been successful in professional life but is questioning her personal life and women go through massive changes multiple times throughout their life uh men are very blessed to not have nearly as much dynamism in our life right but I mean women when they discover um when they discover their menstrual cycle and then when they when their body changes again in their 20s when they start to have children when they Lo when they change jobs or leave their job to raise a family I mean the changes for women are just constantly coming men don't have any experience like that but there's also this point when women go they Crest over 40 if they have children their children are grown uh if they some I think we were talking earlier about divorce rates being highest in that age bracket losing your job is highest in that age bracket so there's all sorts of these changes that happen when you're in that 45 to 55 realm and it's a space that because of all those changes it's ripe for women to start second guessing themselves and doubting themselves even though their instincts are what made them successful in the first place they will still doubt themselves why because especially if we if we stick to generalizing from Empirical research isfj that J means they are judging themselves I'm 50 I should have this much money in the savings account I'm 50 I should have this kind of marriage I'm 50 I should have this kind of relationship with my parents or my family or my sisters or my brothers or my or my kids right I should be taking care of my my parents as they age there's all this judgment going on internally inside of a woman's head about what she what she expects of herself versus what's actually happening and what the outside expects of you which is very very different than how Society treats men and it's very different than how men think of themselves at the same age so in the dirty John example that's the woman who is then targeted by Dirty John who finds her on a dating app or a dating website and why is he on that website because here's the secret Truth for conmen conmen are just like salesmen if anybody knows how sales work you have to call a lot of people to get one sale you have to make a lot of pitches to get one buyer you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find one Prince Right con men are out there doing what when they're intentionally maliciously conning they have to constantly be farming for leads where do you farm for leads on an app on a website in a place where there's an automated function that helps you find multiple targets and then weed through those targets to find the most likely candidate for victory and that's exactly what happened in this dirty John case the target put herself out there in a vulnerable honest place because she as an introverted feeler believes that people are going to be honest but dishonest people like to surround themselves Why by honest people because it gives them an unfair Advantage so once he finds her then there's there's a second level to dirty John that I think is important to talk about because uh dirty John had a history of criminal activity previous fraudulent activity he was a criminal when you start seeing people who are who are compulsive criminals you have to start asking the question about whether they fit into the realm of antisocial personality disorder psychopathy how do you know that they're um they're criminals because you can even lie about that I mean I bet you that wasn't something he put on his dating uh profile no you're exactly right and this is so it's a great question one of the things that that dirty John did specifically to his Target is he started trying to insulate her from her own friends this is a major Telltale sign when you as a female are dating somebody who is a dangerous person if they try to insulate you or pull you away isolate you from your existing circle of friends your existing family your existing Network usually it's because they're trying to hide something that they don't worry about you discovering but they worry about your best friend discovering they worry about your mom finding out right so they try to pull you away from the people that you're closest to dirty John isolated his Target from her children and her friends her children and her friends actually hired a private investigator to look into him and that's how all of his background became known and before you move on is it the reason why he wasn't worried about her finding out is because he knew he could manipulate her and control her even if she did but he doesn't have that type of power over her family correct correct there's a there's a form in CIA operations there's a formula that we use whenever we convert an asset there is a very specific rubric a process to manipulate and gain power over an individual any type of individual any personality type you just have to understand the levers that make them work right so when one of those one of those processes is called no like trust klt what that process means is that first somebody has to know you exist if they don't know you exist then you're not real then they have to learn to like you over time as you learn to like somebody there's something there's an effect called the slippery slope effect the more you learn to like somebody you eventually just fall into trusting that person we always say you have to earn my trust that's not really true if you like me for long enough that's so true oh my God you literally just hit me like with a sledgehammer just now you will just trust me you will fool into trust and that's what happens for many many feelers isfj feelers trust their gut so if they like you for long enough then they just feel like they can trust you so think about all the women out there maybe this has even been you this is me you you see my eyes is so white and you're like yes that's me think about all the women out there who have had a a partner cheat have had a partner steal have had a partner lie uh and then even after they catch their partner they still stay with the partner or come back to the partner give them a second chance give them a third chance give them a fifth chance my wife my wife is a former covert CIA intelligence officer she is a badass she went to CIA running away from a seven-year abusive relationship wow really because she had fallen off the cliff of like into trust and then she was in this position where she was like why do I keep coming back to the same boyfriend and then it it took an invitation from the National Clandestine Service for her to finally leave the guy wow right like it's it's not there's it's not about weakness it is very much about personality and inherent processes and how we think so until until a feeler or in this case until until a female who is exposed to this kind of uh treatment until she starts to realize this is how I am wired I will always have this vulnerability vulnerability is not weakness it's just an opportunity for someone else to take advantage of right so until you understand that you fall into trust then you never have the time to stop at and stop and take a step back and say I really like this person I need to be careful right when you start adding other warning indicators I really like this person and he's trying to isolate me from my friends I really like this person but he's telling me that we need to keep certain secrets about our relationship if you don't ever see the first if you don't ever realize that you're liking the person and starting to trust them just by virtue of liking them then you never even see the other warning signs and they're all there with the dirty John case which is easy for us in hindsight to look back and say how did she miss them but in reality she wasn't even looking for them she was coming from a place in her life where she didn't feel like she was worthy of anybody where she felt like she was a failure where she felt like no matter how much we looked at her and said you're awesome she looked at herself in the mirror and said I've done it all wrong so how are you going to ever expect someone like that with their face down in the weeds how are they ever going to pull their head up enough to see what's happening around them conmen can identify that in a person and that's how they pick their perfect Target just like a Salesman picks their perfect lead um I interrupted you sorry but you said so uh know them like them and then what was the last one trust trust them okay trust no like trust it's it's hard for the very reason we talked about once you like somebody long enough you will fall into trust and then there's a there's a rumor out there that once you violate someone's trust they never trust you again rumor it's not really true in reality once you trust somebody you always give them the benefit of the doubt so when your husband is cheating or your boyfriend is cheating why do you forgive them because there's a part of you that's still giving them the benefit of the doubt oh maybe it was a bad day or maybe they were with their friends or they got high or they got drunk or it won't happen again that trust is so difficult to pull yourself out of right so when we talk about no like trust no like trust is the centerpiece of a larger system called uh development development is the D in the term sad rat s a d r a t what do you sad rat sad rat it stands for spot assess develop recruit handle terminate it's a human intelligence process to basically take someone from being a patriot for their country and turning them into a traiter that supports you okay you got to break that down that's fascinating literally a process to change a person's loyalty if you wake up every morning craving that first cup of coffee but also actually dreading the bloating the Jitters and the crashes that come with it you're so not alone especially for us women but let's face it what's the alternative zombieing through our morning half awake now there's finally a coffee replacement actually designed for women from Peak called nandaka every cup of nandaka nourishes you and uplifts your energy instead of making you feel anxious and jittery nandaka is expertly formulated with the highest quality and purest ingredients to activate your metabolism provide sustained energy and balance your hormones kick your coffee habit and enjoy the endless Wellness benefits from nandaka from Peak now for a limited time you get 15% off plus a free star tiet and a bottle of propolis throat spray when you shop the link you see on the screen or you can find it in the show notes that's 15% off plus a free starter kit transform your mornings with Peak so uh very briefly spotting means that you find a group of people who are susceptible to what you're trying to do which is convert them and convert their loyalty to you to make them loyal to you or loyal to your country or your organization so spotting is about finding the people that you want to convert in the dirty John case he was using an app to spot then you move to assessment assessment means you are probing to test certain aspects of the person and most the most common aspects you want to test their reliability their suitability and their controlability so what that means is are they suitable for what you want them to do right so in dirty John's case he's looking for someone suitable to be ConEd and then you want to test for reliability can you reliably expect them to do what you ask them to do right give you a phone number respond to your message whatever else it might be he can use the app to see how long does it take her to respond to my message how often does she respond does she give me more information or do I give her more information that's all testing for reliability and then controllability controlability is when you tell them what to do and it may not be in their best interest so if if you can tell them well why don't you take Sunday off or take Friday off and meet me for lunch if they do that you're testing their control ability right so now we've gotten from spot and assess now we're going into development because you know the person is suitable is reliable and is controllable so all you do in development is you reinforce the idea that what you have is superior to what they want to get them to believe that they've been wrong the whole time and that they need to trust you you've heard the term gaslighting this is very similar to gaslighting because inside development what you're doing is you're preparing for the final step which is the r stands for recruit s a d r recruit is when you finally tell the person your loyalty should be to me and not to this other thing that you're loyal to so in the dirty John case he basically made it clear to her your loyalty is to me not your friends not your family I care the most about you you should care the most about me your opinion matters the most to me my opinion should matter the most to you I'm sure that we've seen this before in other relationships right once you have that recruitment in place then the a the a is it's a government acronym so the a actually stands for handle handle starts with the letter H but government acronym so they they use the letter A in the handling phase all you're doing is you're reinforcing and constantly practicing the the uh behaviors that you have trained into them during the developmental phase right so this is where you start seeing people who want to keep secrets right this is where you see uh physical and emotional abuse take place and then the the abuser basically says you can't tell anybody this is our business I'll I'm going to get better right just keep it between us let me work on this be my you know help me with this whatever it might be it's it's a process of reinforcing already ex uh already trained behaviors that suit the manipulator and don't suit the target themselves until you get to the place where it's terminated terminate is basically where the Handler or the abuser says I got what I need I'm out and they leave you high and dry broke alone and dejected that's the whole sad rat process that developmental process that I was telling you about in the Middle where you're training those key behaviors that is where no like trust comes in no like trust is the is the tool that you use to get them to adopt your behaviors and how do you get them to adopt those behaviors because they like you so much that they eventually trust you and once they trust you they'll do whatever you tell them to do wow that was such a beautiful way of actually breaking that down and I have such incredible compassion for anyone you know obviously because my show is women of impact but for women who get trapped in that cycle and it is very deliberate and I like that you said it's not weakness right it's like showing vulnerability to somebody in a situation where you want to be vulnerable because you want to build a relationship is beautiful and it pains me that people would them beat themselves up and then not trust themselves anymore because they've been there they're doing the right thing the person who is vulnerable is the person in the right right it's the abuser who's taking advantage of it right like it's just like we said at the beginning of our conversation when you have two opposites that approach in a healthy manner you have a you have the combination for a super couple but when you have one person with malicious intent approaching one person with vulnerable honest intent now you have a recipe for quite the opposite um and so I mean the story gets even worse if people don't actually know what happened um so the daughter is this the one who's very suspicious right you said they went and hired a private detective all this starts coming out he's got a criminal record and things like that um and then one day so the mom eventually tells d John hey you know I don't want to be with you anymore so one day the daughter terara no has I'll just read this to you had gotten out of her car in the parking garage of her apartment building opened the door for her dog to hop out on August 20th 2016 when suddenly she found herself in a fight for her life he grabs me by the waist and he looks me in the eyes and says do you remember me she said he began stabbing her with a knife and this is a quote of hers but I am not aware that he's stabbing me because the knife is D Taco bag and she just thinks that he's punching her so I think she he's punching me and he keeps on trying to grab me put his hand over my mouth I bite as hard as I can and I just keep trying to get away from him terara ends up fighting back and ends up stabbing him in the eye and forehead of a total of 13 times and she ends up killing him wow so I kind of like the way that story end I do like I don't want to wish death on anyone but true but yeah but when someone is attacking you and I mean that's when animal Instinct takes over and it's killer be killed yeah um there's so much that had to go wrong for her to get to the place where she was assaulted by her own car we think of our automobiles we think of them as an extension of our home uh as a safe place for us and we often times forget that they're not as safe as we think they are because they can be put into unsafe situations and unsafe circumstances um but with that turn in the story it's important for us to highlight that Not only was dirty John a con man but on a spectrum of of conman behavior he was far to the extreme of what we call aspd or antisocial personality disorder that's the same realm as Psychopaths and sociopaths and one of the telltale signs of a psychopath over a sociopath is their tendency to violence think about what it takes just I mean it's so it's so rare that people think about what it takes to actually assault another human being how difficult that must be to hold a knife to hold a gun to take someone's life to cause them uh to cause them mortal danger he premeditated it carrying a knife hiding the knife in a bag this was not accidental he knew where she was going to be and when she was going to be there most likely because she was walking her dog and the same place that she always walks her dog right when you think about what effort a person has to put into doing a violent crime like that you start to realize how different they are from the average person like even just punching somebody is a hard thing to conceptualize doing unless your temper is up or you're defending yourself he was not attacked he attacked an innocent unsuspecting person like that all goes to speak to how how far in extreme he was on the spectrum of psychopathy or aspd antisocial personality disorder he was not a normal person right but how do you even identify that is there any signs like if you were to be talking to someone and you're like they they have a weird look right going back to intuition like there's something strange about them they giving me this look that no one else sees what are the things that we can start to identify that maybe showcase obviously that is Extreme and I totally understand but those extremes do exist so what signs would you even warn women let's say if you see this run so I'm I'm going to answer that question but I'm going to say this first yeah we said that there that is the extreme I agree it is absolutely the extreme however if you consider the extreme let's talk about raw numbers 333 million Americans approximately 300 million of which are adults psychopathy which isn't a clinical term anymore the clinical term for both Psychopaths and sociopaths is anti antisocial personality disorder but when those were more acceptable terms it was estimated that 1% of the American population fall under psychopathy 3% of the American population fall under sociopathy or sociopathy right so right there's 4% of the American public that's a laot add into that narcissistic personality disorder that's 6% of the American public that means 10% of the American adult population empirically are either psychopath sociopaths or narcissists and just to quickly do the math that's say it is it 30 million 30 million 30 million I like in my head I paused cuz I like I can't be doing the math right you're doing the math right that is that is the reaction that anybody should be having right now 30 million people fall into one of those three categories so when you meet somebody who acts like that yes they are an extreme but you shouldn't be surprised because one out of every 10 is going to be one of those people you're going to meet 10 people today there are more than 10 people in your office right empirically one out of every 10 people is one of those three categories I have to test to see we come to every single person in my company now and ask some questions I'm sure your hiring standard filtered all that out let's hope but but yes so it's an extreme but it's out there so because it's so prevalent it makes your first question so much more viable how do you know when you're coming across a person like that so the first big thing to understand is the The Telltale sign for somebody who is antisocial personality disorder your Psychopaths and your sociopaths the biggest thing is that they lack empathy empathy is the is the thing that makes us so that we can relate to somebody else's feelings different than sympathy sympathy means that you hurt and and I'm sorry that you hurt and I'm here to give you my sympathy but I don't feel your pain right empathy means you're hurt and I can put myself in your shoes and I can feel some of your pain right when you are with a partner or when you have a a love interest or you're dating somebody or it's your child or it's your it's your parents when they don't feel empathy they can't relate to your feelings that is a big Telltale sign that you might be dealing somebody who's on the spectrum of antisocial personality disorder another major indicator is that they don't believe in the rules of conduct or the rights of others they don't believe that people are equal right so they have certain rights and you have lesser rights so they have a right to privacy but you don't they have a right to knowing how much money is in the bank account but you don't right so they have this this discrepancy in how they believe what they're entitled to versus what you're entitled to how would you test somebody subtly to see if they like that I like the way you're thinking because that's exactly how you find out whether or not the person you're suspicious of deserves that suspicion or whether you're just being paranoid you have to test them so one of the best ways to test somebody for empathy is to make an unpredictable or unpredicted change just change something right if if you all agree that you're going to go to dinner on Tuesday night cancel dinner on Tuesday night and recommend let's go Wednesday instead if they roll with that change easily and if you test them more than one time because a test one test by itself isn't really a test right it's a test over days weeks months if you can make changes and they can accept those changes gracefully then there's a very good chance that you're dealing with a normal rational human being if you start making changes and then they start guilting you or accusing you or if they start getting angry if they have volatile emotions that are in line with the changes that you're proposing it shows that they already think that their time is more valuable than your time which now is an indicator that you're either dealing with somebody who is immature or dealing with somebody who is on that spectrum of Personality Disorder whether it's narcissism or whether it's antisocial Behavior but if they can't handle change it's a good it's a good sign that that you're not dealing with somebody who sees you as an equal so with dirty John we would have seen if they had asked him certain questions they would have seen him potentially getting angry or having an emot a visceral emotional response to something that is maybe not as extreme correct because I mean change happens all the time right and in in a situation where people are equal like a healthy relationship this is something that that people don't often realize a healthy relationship is transactional I have something that benefits you you have something that benefits me so we share our benefits together and in a in an ideal relationship us sharing our benefits results in a net win for both of us so the the sum is greater than the total of the two parts right so a healthy relationship should be transactional give and take sometimes I need your help sometimes you need my help in an unhealthy relationship it's very one way it's a zero sum game one person wins one person loses so you have to test whether your partner is willing to give and take or whether they're just there to take going again back to the empirical evidence of the predominance of isfj women and I know that there's lots of different types of codes and there are women of all types of Myers brig's personality types but the empirical evidence is one in five women as is J that isfj she feels like she should trust this person even though what she's seeing and what she's hearing tells her she shouldn't trust that person she feels like she should she sees that she shouldn't but then she falls on her J which tells her that as a woman in Western Society it's the right thing to do to give the benefit of the doubt it's the right thing to do to give somebody a second chance it's the right thing to do to let them prove themselves and it's it's a it's a tricky and difficult place to be the more you test the more you learn the more you learn the more information you have to challenge your instincts which make you feel like you have to trust somebody that you shouldn't trust and is there sometimes like a piece of information that we hold on to as quote unquote evidence that we keep going back to but maybe that's um falce evidence as well and the reason why I ask you is dirty John apparently um everyone said oh he was always saying like what a great father he was and like you know he was so loving to these to to his two daughters and so let's say you're meeting him for the first time you hear about oh my God he's this great father maybe you meet the daughters you think oh my God they've got a great relationship then you see signs on the contrary but you keep going back to maybe false evidence that no but I must be imagining it because he's clearly an amazing father so what you're talking about now is something we call the relevancy principle the relevancy principle dictates that whatever is the most relevant should carry the most empirical waight so if you made a delicious steak 2 years ago but every steak that you've made since then has just not been right I shouldn't keep asking you to make stake because over time what you're showing is that you have lost relevancy in the art of making a good steak it's the same thing with dirty John could he have been a good father sure could he have been a good father four days ago sure but what is he today and what is he most often what is the most relevant piece piece of information that you're getting it's not necessarily that the evidence was false he really did do nice things at some point but he's also very realistically Done Dirty suspicious uh dishonest things since then so you've got to fall back on the relevancy principle this is another trap that women will fall into more often than men because of the whole the societal pressure to give people the benefit of the doubt the person he just he just slapped you he just called you stupid he just what ever he just spent money on the credit card and lied about it whatever he just did he just did it according to the relevancy principle that has to carry more weight than what he did six months ago or two weeks ago or even yesterday so if yesterday he said I'm sorry babe I'm going to do better and today he didn't do better you have to put more weight in the action that he took today than the promise he made yesterday how do you reinforce that thing cuz I love it I think it's so strong but you do end up in that moment if you're not used to or practice just reverting back to the means right and and you you nailed it on the head right there you have to practice so there are certain tools that that are very basic tools that we use in the field all the time to keep us away from the the process of questioning and and reverting right a journal is a fantastic tool very simple tool to use you keep a daily log or a morning log and an evening log you keep some kind of journal to remind yourself of what is relevant in that moment so then when you when something happens on a Tuesday you can open your journal and go back to last Tuesday and see the journal entries and start to see what is the predominance of information without the journal we forget our short-term memory only lasts for between 7even and 14 seconds whoa it's super short term and in that shortterm 7 to 14 seconds our brain is deciding whether or not to move something from short-term memory into long-term memory but long-term memory still only lasts about 72 hours it has then there's different categories different types of long-term memory that the that your long-term memory will shift into to make permanent memories or make academic memories or make skilled Behavior memories right so when it comes to behaviors of people if we don't value it in the first s to 14 seconds we won't even remember it if we do value it because we s we think it's suspicious or we think it's dishonest we'll hold on to it for maybe the next 48 hours but after 48 hours we let it go if we don't do something else to make it permanent so if you want to look back over the last seven days of your relationship a journal is a fantastic tool a voice memo a diary these are all simple tools that we can use right I've I've even met uh field officers who just kept a jar so two jars and Marbles and all they would do is they would put a marble into the good jar when they saw good behavior and a marble into the bad jar when they saw a bad behavior and over time you just see like oh there's a predominance of bad behavior and even though you don't know the specific examples you get the gut feeling that you need to make the decision that you know is in your best interest and that visual you just can't ignore it you can't ignore it you can't you can't rationalize your way out of that but when you're sitting across from somebody who's a common an abuser or someone who actually is a narcissist or antisocial personality disorder when you're sitting across from them because they lack empathy they know exactly how to make you feel good because making you feel good is just a matter of giving you what you want so they say the things you like they act the way you want them to act because they logically rationally they understand what you cognitively are trying to achieve they don't feel it but they can see it like academically there's a the word that is most often used to describe a psychopath is someone who is coldblooded MHM cold blooded is something that we often think of means like they'll murder You In Cold Blood yeah what cold blooded really means is that they don't get heated they don't get passionate they don't get excited they don't get angry they don't have that hot blood that makes you have a temper instead they're always very detached that's what cold blooded means from that cold blooded position they can literally read your patterns of behavior because they don't get distracted by all the emotions that you and I get distracted by that keep us from seeing a pattern wow would they would it be harder to interrogate someone like that because they're not showing um emotions and Es and flows it's harder to interrogate them on an emotional basis yes because they're very stable in their emotions compared to a sociopath right psychopath and sociopath both antisocial personality disorder sociopaths have very Dynamic ranges of emotions narcissists have very Dynamic ranges of emotions so the good news for women is if you're dealing with a partner who can flip a switch on their emotions you're not dealing with a psychopath even though a lot of times like I know for men when men see women go from extremely happy to extremely angry we're like oh my God you're a psycho it's actually exactly the opposite the psycho is the person who never goes through those extremes somebody who goes through those extremes is the definition of the opposite of a psychopath so when you're interrogating or when you're questioning somebody and you see that very stable detached emotional Foundation you know that you're dealing with somebody who's on that spectrum of antisocial personality disorder fascinating I've got a few more cases that I'd love to take you through but before we actually do one thing I've always wondered is why are women so obsessed with True Crime and serial killers so I think there's a couple of reasons there right I think that it's not just women first of all men also love True Crime but there's a difference in perspective I think when men look at True Crime they're putting themselves in the shoes of the detective trying to solve the crime and a lot of times when women look at True Crime they're putting themselves in the shoes of the victim of the crime you're so right so men are like how would I how would I have saved this woman and the women are like how do I never become that woman right two different points of view on the same True Crime case but I think that uh that the obsession with true kind first of all it's a very Western Obsession it doesn't really exist in the East interesting it doesn't really exist as an entertainment format in most other parts of the world right it's something that really only exist exists in or predominantly exists in wealthy Western Society Europe the United States Canada and it's because we have the space and the kind of society where criminal activity is is reduced we out if you think about it practically we Outsource our security who's responsible for your safety the police for a second I was going to say my husband outsourced m in reality it should be you if you ask any Indian woman in Mumbai who's responsible for her safety she will be like I am if you ask a Pakistani woman who's responsible for your safety I am right it's my job to keep myself safe because everybody else is a criminal and you know they they've been raised that way from their whole life because literally crime is a way of life and in most parts of the world but in Western Society the police keep us safe we expect all people to follow rule of law and and have order in their lives so when we come across these ideas of serial killers who are exceptions to that rule and they are such effective exceptions to the rule that they don't just kill once they kill multiple times without being discovered without being caught sometimes even if they are caught they get off because the evidence or the legal structure something happened and and the evidence can't be held against them so it becomes this this threat this wolf out there in in the Hills that we can't ever really see so we become worried about the that we don't understand we become nervous about the thing that we believe is the exception again going back to math and going back to empirical evidence serial killers are actually on the decline their Peak was in the 1970s and 1980s I mean and when we say Peak it's like 300ish deaths per year were attributed to serial killers and serial killers are about 1% of all homicides so 70s and 80s were at their Peak and even at their Peak there were only about 300 people being killed one one life lost is too many lives lost when you look at serial killers now serial killing in 2023 I think there were 14 serial killers and I think the person who killed the most killed three people oh interesting so when you compare the 1980s to the 2020s it's very very different now you're talking about maybe 50 serial killer deaths in an entire year in the United States and a big part of the reason that decline is happening is because technology and uh police investigative techniques have improved so quickly that they can now catch detain arrest and prosecute a serial killer after they've only killed once or even twice so you just don't have the Ted bundies anymore that can kill 14 or 25 people and we have the two crime shows so now that us women are more experienced and knowledgeable about the serial killers well because I you know I was born in 79 and so for me you know the Ted Bundy era the Green River Killer was all very real in like hearing about it growing up and it always um fascinated me in how they end up being able to manipulate and trap these women and I think a big thing was you mentioned the word wolf that's exactly what I was thinking that as a kid we were taught that danger men it was someone that had the big fangs the drooling that looked very aggressive those are the people you should stay clear of but your neighbor the guy that's just friendly no he's lovely right and so unfortunately those are the people you end up trusting with f actually the wolf in the sheep's that we to be aware of and Ted Bundy's story it's like that one woman Carol Durant I think her name was that was the one person that escaped it's like to think through where what would have happened to her if she didn't spot these weird signs and then trust to instinct to make a moves he acts as if he's a police officer I think and I think he has his arm in a cast and so he asks the woman to help him and she's like okay you're a police officer sure I'll give you help and then he walks to his Volkswagen Bug and she's like a police officer with a Volkswagen bug you know so she was confused and she's like well I guess and he's like I just need to come to this need you to come to the station oh her card got broken into supposedly so she's like okay you want me to come to the station so she gets in the car and like no handles or the handles have been removed or something and that's when she was like what the hell and so she like jams the door open as like the cars mve she jumps out of a moving car when I think about that story The Sweet Lisa at 16 that was like you know do what people say people please if I had even spotted all of those little things I still would have sat in the [ __ ] I'm like well you can't jump out of a moving car he's going to think you're silly and ridiculous for acting so extreme so with us women that's why I was asking you about the signs and things of that how do we start to identify these little things that are sparking our curiosity that are maybe waving the flags that we shouldn't then ignore and we should actually act on them it's about changing the system that you use to make your decision- making because you're example of the sweet Leisa 16 her system of making decisions was based off of what is the other person going to think of me or how will my what will my parents think if this person tells a story about me jumping out of a moving car right or when I go home all scuffed up and and bruised how are they going to react even if I tell them I think I was being kidnapped so I jump out of a car are they still going to scold me are they still going to shame me that the system is what makes up the frame of reference in an isfj the J means that there's a system a rubric that you have to follow a societal Norm that you have to follow once you change the norm to a new Norm you have a new system but you have to be willing to think a different way to change that system if you use the example that you just uh were talking about from from the Ted Bundy case everything that woman saw was something that one of her five senses picked up the cast the Volkswagen the missing handles the questions that he was asking and they didn't make sense so again you can see how her personality which was one in five chance isfj she was getting information that didn't make sense to her and yet she also was still complying with the guidance that that she was getting right that compliance process is so difficult to break out of when your Jay is dictated to you by Society why do you think Ted Bundy said he was a police officer Authority in instant compliance if he was some academic Professor or if he was like a lifeguard or if he was a restaurant bartender nobody feels that compelled to comply with somebody like that but you do feel compelled to comply with a priest with a a teacher with a a police officer a doctor right so they take on those roles there was a case I believe it was the Tinder swindler they Grant you the authority of the position that you claim to be in they even comply to the point where they don't investigate independently to to verify your claims and it's a dangerous world that we live in and it's especially dangerous because of the few people who are the wolves in sheep's clothing trying to pray on the openly vulnerable M well I'm glad you brought up the Tinder swindler by the way because that's actually the next one that I would love to talk to you about um so people that may not know who the Tinder swindler is I'm just going to give you a little recap so this guy had pretended that he was a wealthy air working in the dangerous Diamond business and so after he'd been dating woman for a while he' explained that he was in danger send videos of his bodyguards bleeding and tell his girlfriend that he needed to use a credit card in someone else's name so he couldn't be tracked so according to the film his girlfriend sent credit cards took out loans and lines of credit even flew suitcases of withdrawn cash to him in his time of need he promised them he'd pay them back of course they believed him and he was the prince of diamonds flew private everywhere stayed at the fanciest hotels and was always dripping in designer clothes and he did pay them back back with checks that bounced fake watches and Bank transfers that never went through little did each woman know that all the wealth they bore witness to had been paid for by the women who came before them women who were by the time alone in debt or by that time alone in debt and desperate for answers so the the reality is only a little bit different than the movie the reality is that the the Tinder swindler and he was an Israeli citizen um he specialized in check and banking fraud so if you remember uh back a long time ago Catch Me If You Can Leon movie that was another example of a con man who specialized in check fraud so so the Tinder swindler is just the modern-day version of that so he specialized in this ability to take to to make fraudulent checks and fraudulent bake transfer so he would ingratiate himself with a wealthy family it it all started my understanding is it all started when actually was a babysitter for a wealthy family in Israel oh and he stole the checkbook of that wealthy family and then left the child behind when he was supposed to be caring for the child and that was kind of how he got his start and then he started cashing their checks for himself from there he became a wanted criminal in Israel and he was able to escape Israeli custody and then go to the west where he just continued to con wealthy women doing exactly what the endler swindler movie was about getting their credit cards getting their bank accounts getting their uh check and getting their debit cards and then running up their bills always promising that there was a reason for it or cting them in some way shape or form and but specializing in this his ability to basically cash checks a certain way so that nobody really knew when the check was the check was being cashed or who owned the funds uh and ultimately he was wanted in multiple different countries uh and he was young I mean this guy is about 31 years old when he was at the peak of his activity after he was apprehended and they started looking at his life what they realized is that he had actually been uh engaged in fraudulent check activity fraudulent money activity all the way back to his early teens 13 14 years old in Israel and that a big part of that came because his parents were also party to criminal and ilicit activities when he was growing up so one of the things that we haven't talked about yet is that this spectrum 10% of the American population falls under uh psychopath sociopath or narcissist that 10% of people the formula that makes them who they are is part genetic and part environmental what kind of childhood do you have what kind of parents do you have what foundational emotions what foundational survival instincts do your parents ingrain in you in this case the Tinder swindler was programmed with the sense of self-reliance that you had to be nefarious you had to be sneaky you had to be a trickster you had to to lie so his ethical Compass was programmed completely different than the average person now lying was needed to survive right and survival was and and success was defined by how effectively you lied and how much you stole the average workingclass American family who's taught to believe in hard work and honesty and the of happiness that is the the total antithesis for them which is why my mind doesn't go there when I meet people the last thing I'm thinking of is oh they a complete Crook and they've got criminal record and they've done all this dodgy stuff um so how do you then start to know in those situation cuz he's sending them photos right of like oh and he's like his face and like the bodyguards like bleeding and so you would think that that would be evidence how do you start to identify when someone's actually withholding so many Secrets because the fact that he was able to do all of that and have such a background that he never got found out is crazy to me and if 10% really are all those things how do you start to know if they're lying or not and then pull out any secrets that maybe they're trying to keep from you I would actually flip that on the I would flip that on its access okay it's not your job to worry about other people that's that's the F in the isfj you feel like and Society has put a rubric on you where you feel like you are responsible for worrying about other people people that's why that's why women end up often times feeling like they have to please others it's their responsibility to make others feel good what I would recommend is that we completely change that mindset right the first thing that EV every human being and especially for this for this conversation we're having it would mean the world to me if every woman who hears this conversation the first thing that she asks herself the first statement that goes through her head every time she meets a new male is one in 10 one and 10 is this person in front of me one out of the one out of the 10 that is going to be on this spectrum first question is this person one of the 10 that doesn't mean you don't talk to anybody that doesn't mean you question them that doesn't mean you assume they are but you ask yourself the question right now you're not asking yourself that question everybody comes with a blank slate everybody comes with an opportunity benefit of the doubt we should change that rubric this is not a benefit of theou type of world that we live in we now live in a world where we should say are you one of 10 the second thing that we should that women should pay attention to how quickly do you like somebody because the faster you like people really quickly Andre you need to slow yourself down because you already know what's going to happen if you like them too fast they're going to get your trust and they don't deserve your trust yet people who are not nefarious are often times the hardest people to like m they're socially awkward they're a little bit rude they're kind of rough around the edges so it's you don't you don't fall in love with them very quickly but they're probably very honest people they're honest which is exactly why they don't know how to manipulate the environment manipulate your experience to make you like them and trust them so quickly so when you're dealing with somebody that's a little bit like aggravating or irritating chances are they're not trying to manipulate you but if you're dealing with somebody who like I really like that person they always know what say they totally get me hold on time out no like trust am I liking them too fast have I already started trusting them and are they one are they the one and 10 if you just ask yourself those two questions and you're constantly reminding yourself that those two things exist you're going to slow the process down we have a concept in Espionage called time distance and change in Direction and that concept basically means that you need to create time space so that because time will tell you if something is real or not you need to create distance when you're always together then it's uh the pattern is set and it's harder to see changes and deviations from the pattern than when you're physically apart right so it's like the reason we don't move in too fast with a boyfriend or move in too fast uh with a girlfriend is because once you're living on top of each other it's very hard to see how the other person responds to the distance element instead of dating every day we date every three or five or 12 days right like give yourself distance and give yourself time to find the interruptions in the pattern give that manipulator space and time to screw up because someone who's genuine is going to be very consistent because they are genuinely demonstrating who they are and then change in Direction like I was telling you about testing earlier you want to make changes changes in direction will tell you a lot about how a person reacts to change and if you're the one dictating the change it tells them a lot it tells you a lot about how they react to you being in control a fair and Equitable partner understands sometimes you're in control sometimes I'm in control because it's a transactional relationship a nefarious or malicious partner will never accept that you're the one making a change they will always get upset about it and they will turn that against you so what about those scenarios and because I love that bra that breakdown but the space thing almost for me I get why you're saying it but there is something to comp someone who's trying to manipulate or lie or deceive you use that space as a way to not have to keep interacting with you giving you information that maybe then later they forget right because you know Liars you almost have to keep track of what they say to then say let's say six months down the line hang on a minute that didn't jive with something else they said down here so when you're talking about someone with malicious intent it's actually the other way around people with malicious intent want to reduce that space what the reason they have space in the beginning um so think about dirty John again dirty John was on a dating app so he was cultivating multiple cons at one time well the only way he can he can cultivate that many cons is by being distant from all of them right but as he started to hone in on which ones were the most susceptible his job was to close distance as quickly as possible think of it like a like a lion hunting a gazelle a lion is going to sit and watch The Herd and find the sick and the elderly of the herd and then when the herd starts to run he will that lion or lioness will pick the slowest one to attack and then dedicate all of their resources into closing the distance and attacking that one prey that is most susceptible to them that's exactly what dirty John was doing that is what the Tinder the Tinder swindler was known to do as well was to cultivate multiple cons until the one showed itself as most susceptible and then very quickly distance and introduce that manipulative behavior and there is a process to manipulation that's important to understand and I'm sure we'll get to it but when you start to see that manipulative Behavior take hold if you've done a good job of is this person one of the 10 am I liking them too fast have I used time distance and change in Direction and now if you've done all of those things and you're like the uh the Ted Bundy woman who was like where's the where the door handles why is he a police Poli officer in Volkswagen you've started collecting this these data points of evidence that you should not trust the person and that's that's the moment where she jumped out of a moving car we all have to accept that sometimes to keep ourselves safe that is what we must do we must be willing to jump out of a rolling car no matter what Society thinks of us our safety is our responsibility not the police not Mom and Dad not our husband not our spouse our our safety is our responsibility and if that means that your parents are going to yell at you because you come back with torn jeans and a scuffed elbow and they never believe that you saved your own life to hell with them you know you just saved your own life who cares what Society thinks there has to be a time when we're willing to challenge the societal norm and understand that the societal Norm is not there for our best interests it's there for the best interests of societal order it's there for 90% of circumstances it's not there for the 10% of bad guys who are out there looking for us when I think about Dy John's uh the daughter who ended up you know stabbing him to think through what you know that that my life is at stake at this point so I will kill back right it had to take that for her to then make sure that he never does that again obviously I'm not suggesting people just got and kill people but the fact that it was like her life or his she ended up having to take is but I think of how many of us don't feel the threat in that way right where it's your life or death but a lot of time it is from like a emotional standpoint like it's the death of your emotions the death of your soul when someone can do something like that so extreme you know and I think a big thing is you end up not only not trusting other people you end up not trusting yourself right and that distrust of yourself is one of the key things that a manipulator is looking for because if you already don't trust yourself what that means is you put your trust somewhere else cuz we all have to trust we all need a North star we all need a Guiding Light a compass so when a manipulator sees someone who doesn't trust themselves it's the perfect opportunity to step in and be the thing that they trust again I was I was mentioning how how I know that I'm I'm privileged to be sitting on this show with you as a as a male on the show and I'm I know it's not just because you like my hair or you think I'm friendly is dope D and you're are very friendly it's because CIA has a process yes for manipulating people it's what CIA does it's how it keeps America safe cia's job is to manipulate foreign targets into providing secrets to the United States that give the United States an unfair advantage in military uh economics and and political power our job is to follow a very uh system atic manipulation process and identify the people who are susceptible to that specific manipulation process it's what we're designed to do and one of the Prime things that we look for when we're cultivating a Target just like dirty John just like the Tinder swindler when we're when we're cultivating one out of many many targets what we're looking for is maybe you go to bed at night just dismissing your dreams and saying no no my life is just fine but Momie do you actually want to live a fine life or do you actually want to wake up every day with utter ferocity and go after that dream or that desire that you absolutely have and you deserve I wrote the book that gives you the 11 lessons on how on Earth you take action even when you don't feel good enough even when you don't feel you have the confidence because I was stuck there I know how you feel but I also know how to get out so go grab my book on paperback radical confidence that can literally teach you the blueprint that you need in order to snap out of that word just fine you deserve more and with this book you can go out and actually deliver on that step by step every single day even when that voice in your head is telling you no good don't listen to it grab my book and every day take that one step closer towards that vision of the life that you want go to radicalcon24 know and find those people we then start to look for what the source is of their distrust of themselves and when we find that the source of their distrust stems back to their childhood is that typically where it comes from it comes from different places so there are some people who distrust themselves because they made poor decisions in college or they made bad decisions with money when they were you know in their 20s or 30s so there's all sorts of different places where people start to doubt themselves but when you find someone whose self-doubt stems back to their childhood now what you know is you have somebody who is deeply conditioned to be dependent on someone else so uh uh George Santos was a politician a corrupt politician who lied about uh his lied about everything and still made it to Congress that's s crazy when you look at his background he came from a very poor Brazilian family where he was one of several children uh where where Mom and Dad were highly successful and the children were kind of left to to fend for themselves with a rotating door of nannies and whatever else right so in this in this Brazilian corrupt family this is where he kind of built his foundation this is where his wiring was made so is anybody surprised that as he became a 40-year-old male in the United States in a predominantly paternal society that he felt absolute uh Comfort lying about his educational background about his work history about everything else to win a vote and then is it not the ultimate con to basically con a constituency into voting for you I mean that is exactly how manipulation works you manipulate the emotions of people who are susceptible to that manipulation so he knew what the right message was with the right congressional district to get voted by saying the right things just like spies collect assets by knowing what to say and how to change the vein of trust so that the target trusts the Spy or trusts the con man or a constituency trusts their congressional representative or somebody trusts their doctor or somebody trusts the CEO of a company okay well you've teased us enough now you got to tell us what those that manipulation prog uh what you call it yeah the progression progression yeah do you mind breaking that down so so the first thing that you're looking for uh remember I talk about sense making so sense making is a process that was refined and identified uh during the um Vietnam war in the 1970s because it was very difficult for American interrogators to get information from the Viet Kong who were being captured so the United States Army invested in this massive psychological program to be able to identify how we can systematically change someone's loyalty or how we can systematically manipulate people to a place where they comply with your bidding so uh the first step in the sensemaking process is called avoidance and what avoidance means is you have to accept and acknowledge that every time you approach a stranger their natural instinct is avoidance like and if you really think about it it's how all of us are the first time you meet somebody new you actually want to avoid them and they actually want to avoid you but it's the societal construct that makes us say things like good morning how are you what what do you say 90 times nine times out of 10 when somebody says how are you fine even if it's not true because in your mind what you're really thinking is how do I end this conversation how do I avoid talking to a stranger I'm already thinking about something else I'm already going somewhere else the last thing I want to do is actually be present and thoughtful in this conversation with a stranger right so avoidance is the is the place where it all starts so inside of sense Mak you have to account for the fact that when you first approach somebody they will try to avoid you so a manipulator inherently understands that the first time they approach a target the target will want to avoid them now the tricky part to avoidance is that within the societal culture that we live in persistence is deemed a value it's deemed something that we appreciate and honor so when you try to avoid somebody but that other person is persistent in catching your attention or in the case of a manipulator they're persistent in giving you something that you want then all of a sudden you move out of avoidance and you stop trying to avoid them and instead you move into the next phase of the sense making cycle which is called competition competition is when there's an exchange of ideas and sometimes it's heated like sometimes it's I disagree with you and other times it's tell me more or let me you know prove it to me competition is this push pool where relationships start to get built manipulators understand you have to push through avoidance to get to competition but once somebody is in the competition phase of sense making what they're really showing you is that they're willing to exchange ideas with you if you think of it in terms of something we call Social Capital it's a CIA term Social Capital means I'm investing my capital in you and I'm expecting a return on my investment that's what competition is so you push somebody through avoidance you get them to start sharing their opinions and their ideas well once you start telling me your opinions and your ideas what you're doing is investing in this relationship so once you get them talking you know that that's the first hook yeah exactly right once you once you push past avoidance which you know you can do with a susceptible Target dirty John knew he could do it the T the Tinder swindler knew he could do it because with the right person they can't avoid for very long because they're Jay makes them feel like they're being rude and then Society dictates that you at least show some friendly exchange and like you had said way earlier is that you just go out and do it multiple times and it's the one person so let's say you get avoidance from 20 people but then maybe that one person ends up going into the sorry what was the phase the they go into the competition competition phase so that's when they're like okay so now let me narrow in on this person Focus my resources and close the distance right right so then in competition you're getting them to exchange their ideas the whole reason that you invest in that person with your Social Capital inside of that competition phase is because you know that after enough competition they will be so invested in the relationship that they will start to look for your validation validation that your ideas are credible or validation that you need to change the way that you think and then the Final Phase after comp ICI is called compliance and compliance is exactly what it sounds like inside the compliance phase you have now outsourced some element of your thinking or some element of your decision- making to the other person how often do you go to Tom your husband and ask him his thoughts on something all the time how often do you ask him to help you make a decision a lot I almost know though he's going to influence me and so I deliberately don't ask him because I need to figure out my own answer and that's you you being self-aware enough to know that you don't want to be compliant you want to be independent right but you are a a highly educated successful you know experienced woman over 40 thank you you have that you have learned that the hard way there are lots of men and women out there who have yet to learn that lesson who believe that there's something honorable about finding a partner who they trust so much that they can Outsource every decision every conversation they can be totally transparent with the person right because they're looking for that that marriage that we were talking about early on where it's a where it's two opposites who who complement each other when you're so dedicated to finding that perfect fit you're often times more susceptible and willing to accept an imperfect fit and just choosing to ignore the warning science so that compliant piece is the final piece that they know okay they are now relying on me and I can influence them in a way that I wasn't able to correct if you go back to the the larger sad rat the sad rat process all of that compliance competition and avoidance phase that all happens inside of no like trust that all happens inside of the development phase and once you know that you have a reliable susceptible um controllable Source once you know that they're suitable to constantly be manipulated then you move them into the recruitment phase of that relationship and now you switch their loyalty they are no longer loyal to themselves they are loyal to you and that is what a manipulator wants that is exactly what a sociopath wants that's exactly what a narcissist wants that's exactly what a psychopath wants they want somebody who is wholly dependent on their guidance their Direction their control because when they have that person then all of their personal needs are met right Psychopaths get to hurt the person Psychopaths have that tendency towards violence sociopaths get to manipulate that person and use them like a tool narcissists get their constant validation and constant uh uh self-aggrandisement and how long does that roughly take is it is there an average so the the recognized average to turn a patriot into a Trader so this is a CIA standard to completely switch someone's loyalty from their country to you takes about 6 months on average so when it comes to a personal relationship where the stakes are much much less it can happen much faster it can happen anywhere anywhere from 30 to 90 days to get someone to completely abandon their own personal values and switch their loyalty to you it really depends on how much time and distance the manipulator can take to shrink the time frame right the closer they are the more it's called Time On Target The More Time On Target they have with their specific uh Target of manipulation the more they can control that person's environment uh the more that they can train that person to adopt certain behaviors it can happen very rapidly and I think that's that is a big part of why women have to slow things down like I'm not saying that they have to kiss on the fifth date instead of the first date I'm not saying they have to not go to bed with the guy but what I'm saying is the thing that that is really precious is our sense of Independence and once you m your independence with somebody else then there's there's it's hard to take it back so the faster you give someone your Independence essentially the faster you've fallen through no like trust that's something that weighs on me a lot is that when it comes to relationships specific that's the thing that dents women's confidence that I've just seen the most um and maybe is that speed and that closeness and maybe that's why but when I think about someone who's been in a toxic business relationship or something it's like if they've been manipulated the the healing process and the Damage emotionally I've never seen as heavy as when it's a couple and it's someone that you actually fall for um and so kind of thinking as you're you know putting your hands together and doing that closeness thing I was thinking about how much that must be a big part of it because you get closer to them than you do to anybody um and going back to just other things that you've said the isolation and things like that isolating someone that they're the only person you can emotionally turn to now to the control part that you were just talking about they really have like almost ultimate control if they can control not just what you say or what you do but how you feel and then when you put all of that through the lens of a personality type and I'm not and conmen are notoriously uneducated like they're they're smart but they're not educated so I would never imagine that a malicious actor actually understands personality types but often times the women who are are Highly Educated they're very very smart sometimes they're so smart that they talk themselves out of the warning signs that they themselves see right so understand that if you are that highly successful woman if you are that that that woman who is longing for a partner that's a perfect fit take your Myers Briggs personality type indicator find out what your what Your Myers Briggs type is because it will tell you so much about how you're wired and once you know how you're wired then you can start to understand both who you're looking for because they will be the opposite of you but you can also understand how the opposite of you can present themselves in very unhealthy ways so that gives you a chance to avoid the wrong person and and attract the right person I'm I'm I am super proom and we've had this conversation um I was raised by a single mom and my grandmother uh I have two sisters I am so proud of my daughter I am very proud to be raising a little boy who understands that that boys and girls are equals right like I'm super proud of my son when I married my wife I took her last name oh wow I didn't even realize that so my wife's maiden name is my current married name which totally confused the banks and Confused my universities and everybody else right made CIA very happy when I took my wife's last name because they basically had someone who had a legal name change oh so it really worked out but uh so I am a I am one of the biggest fans out there for women doing amazing things because from what I've seen of women in my life women can do things that that would make a man cringe or break Under Pressure that said everybody including women have to take responsibility for their own decisions and the more we feel like there's some sort of safety in Outsourcing our decisions it's it's a false sense of security when we feel like there's some sort of Honor in subjecting ourselves to somebody else because it makes life easier or it makes us feel comfortable or it makes us feel secure there's also inherent risk in that that doesn't mean you can't do it it just means be very very selective in how you do it be very empirical be very intentional be very patient because the person who loves you they're going to love you whether it takes you seven days or 70 days to actually you know let them into your what we call a secret life right so actually yeah if you don't mind break taken down the three lives so everybody has three lives and uh these three lives dictate kind of how we interact with the world around us there's your public life your public life is what you do every day um when you put on your clothes when you put on your makeup when you put on your fake smile when you call somebody on the phone and you sound uh energetic when you're actually tired that who does that that Persona is your public life it's what everybody sees and you do it so that you can protect your inner lives which is your private life and your secret life so if the public knows your public life then you have your small group of friends and Associates and peers uh the closest group they know your private life so while your public life they may think that you always look beautiful and smell great your in your private life they know that milk gives you gas and your feet really stink that's your private life a small circle of people who really know you and you show vulnerability with the people in your private life you don't show vulnerability with the people in your public life but then there's a third level called your secret life inside your secret life that is a place where you and only ever maybe a handful of people will ever actually get to go because it's inside your secret life where you hide your shame it's where you hide your embarrassment it's where you hide all the things about yourself that you are the most guilty and fearful and regret and remorseful about that's all in your secret secret life when going back to the no like trust model when you let somebody into your secret life you basically never let them leave so even if they violate your trust even if they disappear for 15 years and go do something else around the world and they come back into your life they come right back into your secret life once someone gets there you can't really ever kick them out it's very similar to when you fall into trust when you trust somebody they can abuse your trust and they get the benefit of doubt over and over again ultimately someone can violate your trust enough that you don't trust them anymore and I guarantee you there are people listening to this conversation right now saying [ __ ] that once somebody TR once they violate my trust once I never trust them again if that's what you're saying to yourself then I believe that you believe that but Empirical research shows quite the opposite that once you actually trust somebody you're willing to give them the benefit of the doubt maybe it takes two weeks maybe it takes two years but they have a chance again that's because they're inside your secret life CIA trains us the methodology to get through each of those lives we've covered that methodology today sad rat sense making and no like trust all bring people into you get into someone's secret life if you follow that method manipulators inherently intrinsically understand that there's a process but they spend their lives practicing to figure out that process through the School of Hard Knocks they try manipulating mom and dad maybe it works maybe it doesn't they try manipulating their brother or sister maybe it works maybe it doesn't by the time they hit about 31 years old how old was a Tinder swindler 31 years old by the time they hit that age they got it figure it out dirty John was in his late 40s he figured it out right narcissists basically their Peak narcissistic activity is from 25 to 35 but your sociopaths and your Psychopaths your antisocial personality disorder their peak of of skill is between 35 and 55 h because they figured it out by the time they get to roughly 30 right I had the benefit of going to a secret school that the CIA hosted that's where I learned it but for everybody else who doesn't get to go through a curriculum to learn it they learn it through the school of practice and experience and unlike the average person a narcissist or a sociopath or someone with antisocial personality disorder they find the process of hacking a human brain they find it so interesting they dedicate themselves to it whereas other people are dedicating themselves to learning about brain surgery or environmentalism or engineering so it's just about where they dedicate their energy so okay that was so great the way that you broke that down and I understand how you could try to get someone else from their pri uh their public to private to uh secret now for yourself in fact you personally as a CIA person that's been trained at this do you are you conscious of when someone goes from public public to private in your world and are you conscious when someone goes from private to secret and if so what are those Gates if you will that for you they have to do act show before they are able to enter that next gate the reason why I want to make sure that I ask that is because if we can be more conscious of it then hopefully if it's very if it's true that once you get into the secret life there really is no getting out we need to be really freaking careful who we give the the keys to so how do we make sure who we give the keys to with Consciousness that we don't regret it so it's it's a great question and the the solution really lies in that framework I gave you called time distance and change in Direction Nobody moves from my public life into my private life without passing a huge amount of time I do that on purpose because what do we know we know that it's inherent in human behavior that the more you like somebody the more likely you are to trust them so I use time very intentionally to counterbalance my own intrinsic desire to want to like people so now I say I will like you if you're still my friend in six months right like force the time element and then I also Force the distance element it's been very I've been very fortunate to have a successful business that's growing so there's an element of distance that's already built in I have to travel I have to work long hours I have to be with my team I can't always be with a friend there's all sorts of reasons I can't always be with a business colleague so distance is kind of built in time has been kind of built in so I use those to help vet and pressure test a person's intentions because if if they're my friend today and they want to meet every other day or every week it just can't happen right and I'm I'm married and I have two kids being married and having kids also forces distance right if you're a single mom and you're trying to date you know exactly what I'm talking about because it's just hard you've got so much responsibility at home you simply can't go out and date every week or every Friday it has to be over a longer period of time and if if you have a partner who's trying to find more time with you chances are they're doing it because they're trying to close the gap of time and distance and that could have malicious intent behind it so I use time and distance and then I test just like you were talking about I am constantly testing my contacts to see are they trying to control me or are they willing to treat me as an equal so I change plans I change schedules you know I I change locations I change ideas if they get if they're resistant to that change then I know that they don't value me on the same terms that they value themselves if they are willing to accept those changes and treat me like a like an equal or like a peer now between that and the time and the distance now maybe they have earned the place to be in my private life one of my closer Associates right when you go through that process over and over again what ends up happening is the associates you have in your private life have all been thoroughly vetted and they are all very protective of your secret life and they understand that there are some things about you that just need to be protected because they're beautiful on their own and they don't pry and they don't push and they don't manipulate because they have been vetted so thoroughly a lot of times when you let the wrong person in too fast they want to keep moving fast so then they start to and they start to dig and they start to guilt you and they start to manipulate you and they start to try to get deeper and deeper and deeper they they say and they they might even think that they're trying to help you but all it's doing to you is making you feel pressure and making you feel guilt and making you feel shame which is exactly what you hide in your secret life anyways so they're not helping to get in they're just they're just making you feel even worse about the secret life that you are totally justified in having so those actually really good ways of assessing then um if they deserve to go into that next stage of you know your next life or not because if they're making you feel the shame or the guilt or the pressure then those are signs that maybe this isn't the person you should help uh Elevate to the next level correct without a doubt but again going back to that societal pressure unfortunately we live in a society especially the way that it's geared towards women where when someone makes you feel guilty women especially feel compelled to to admit their guilt admit their wrongdoing and remediate it so now when someone is like you're you should tell me exactly how many guys you've had sex with women are like oh I feel guilty not telling that so maybe I should tell that because I don't want to be the person who's trying to keep a secret no that is your secret life nobody should get to know what's in your secret life and they should respect that you have a secret life because if they really care about you they know that with time and with and with security and with consistency if they are worthy you will let them into your secret life they will learn about whatever abuses your parents may have done to you they will learn about your you know the one that got away they will learn about all the things that we just don't talk about with other people and when that times comes for the right person they will appreciate being let in when you've got somebody who pushes it when you've got somebody who's who's trying to get there that is a very clear warning sign that you're dealing with somebody who is a manipulator they're trying to find the keys to turn you on and off they're trying to isolate you and make you dependent on them they're trying to pry into your secret life knowing that once they get there they're at the wheel they're at the helm what I didn't even realize until you were just talking I do the opposite I give them my secret to then make sure that I to then see if I can trust them or not wow I didn't even realize I did that until you were just saying it and and what I'm hoping that you mean by that is you give them small Secrets not like correct not like the Biggest Secrets no but still I mean it's like I may tast tell someone something that's I cuz I feel like I can like oh I think I can trust them let me share the secret but actually it's like they need to build the trust first in order for you to then share the sequel correct and one of the things that's difficult is there's a there's a there's a technique called elicitation elicitation is where it's a it's a communication technique where you get people to overshare and there's a technique in elicitation called give to get which means you give something in order to trigger reciprocity in the other person so that they will give you something in return so if you if you think about it when you meet somebody at like a a restaurant or whatever or you meet somebody that your friends introduced you to it's often times like oh where'd you go to school or somebody will just say hey I went to Colorado State and the other person will say oh I went to Arizona State that's give to get I'm telling you where I went to University fully expecting that your reciprocity will make you feel compelled to tell me where you went University trained manipulators or even experienced untrained manipulators understand that you can use give to get with Secrets right so they might come up to you and be like I have a secret I really want to get off my chest and I feel like I can trust you that's not really what they're feeling that's just what they're saying and then they tell you their secret you know uh I I let my dog out when I was 5 years old and the dog never came home and I think the dog was killed and I never admitted to my mom and dad right they tell you that because do they feel empathy about the secret that may or may not be true no they're trying to trigger your empathy they're trying to get you to be like oh you just told me the secret that secret sounds so sad and so heartbreaking and now I trust you more because you're giving me your secrets I feel like I should reciprocate and tell you some of my secrets oh well let me you know since you're trusting me with that secret let me tell you a secret about whatever well because social Norm would say you've got to keep you share back like it's you can't just leave that person hanging so that Gil is like oh you got to feel this space they've just told you something make sure that you tell them back um or if they're a narcissist they're just looking for your validation like oh that must be terrible I can I'm I'm so sorry that you have to live with that memory you must be so strong keeping that to yourself now you're just giving a narcissist exactly what they want that's so true yeah they don't want you to share it's like it's not about you yeah it's not about you at all yeah um so this whole thing we very much we've like Dove deep into a lot of details but the examples we've given are very male Centric and so I wanted to talk about Elizabeth Holmes this one fascinates me and so for people at home who do not know Elizabeth Holmes do you want to give a recap or you want me to sure so Elizabeth Holmes was the CEO of a major corporation that focused on blood testing she was able to basically build this billion multi-billion dollar valuated company off of fraudulent claims and falsified records and research reports and in large part she was able to do it because she was uh she was working in collaboration with the COO of the company uh who was kind of further validating her claims so you had this perfect nightmare in the Venture Capital world of a CEO and a COO working in cahoots to validate each other's false claims the question then becomes because this is such a such a departure from the stereotyp Type M here you have essentially a female who is compulsively lying who is creating false pretex and fraudulent records for a long period of time who is essentially carrying out what what can be deemed to be anti-social Behavior breaking social norms showing a lack of empathy stealing people's money a con woman if you will this is not what people expect from a con person that's why they're called a con man CU you expect this from a man you don't expect this from a woman right there is still a high pre there's still a prevalence though it's not the majority there's still a prevalence of antisocial personality disorders Psychopaths and sociopaths who are women they absolutely exist they don't exist to the same frequency as men but they do exist because again we have to remember that that type of behavior that's that's psychopathy or sociopathy is a combination of genetic gentics and environment Elizabeth Holmes grew up in a very well-to-do house with her father was I think the president or CEO of Enron her mother was a very wellestablished uh um staffer in Washington DC when you put two people of that much power together you can almost guarantee that they were not present and attentive parents she was probably raised by a series of nannies and uh and tutors and who knows who else right maybe even a grandmother or something like that who knows who actually created the foundation for her but in addition to whatever Foundation was created you can also see that she was conditioned that if she wasn't successful financially successful um Fame successful if she wasn't in a position of high power she was not going to be accepted by her parents so very quickly you can see going through our our process of looking at the childhood to understand the manipulator you can see the foundation from where her antisocial Behavior came from that doesn't mean you have to accept it or sympathize with it but it gives you a rubric so that you can see oh if you take the gender away you basically have the same ingredients that happened with the Tinder swindler that happened with dirty John that happened with George Santos they're all just mirror images of each other and while genetics play in elements they don't play as big of a role as environment God that the thinking of the foundation really helps you go oh yeah so it you you shouldn't be biased when it's a female because they have just as I mean maybe not just as much Tendencies but they they've got the foundation then they've got the ability um but it was so fascinating to see I don't know if you ever saw like older videos of her um and her when she was at the top where everyone thought that she was like the go and this was going to be the biggest company in the world her voice changed H so they literally pulled videos of her when she was in her teenage years and she has a normal voice and then pull videos of her now and she talks like this she then also changed her clothes so like the whole uh documentary on her is fascinating because she would look at the successful people around her like she deliberately manipulated people and molded herself into being the thing that would give people the Comfort to invest in her and so she put on these uh Polo necks like Steve Jobs so she wore black and she wore jeans so she tried to mimic Steve Jobs and how he dressed she had read research about tone and voice and how commanding a room actually if you go deeper voice then you can command a room more so she starts to change her voice I mean like the things that she did in order to um get that money is insane it clearly worked but my question is would it have worked if she was a guy I would say yes I would say it would and here's why because one of the things that makes antisocial personality disorder so sociopaths and Psychopaths one of the things that makes them so dangerous so dangerous is that they can they can distance themselves from emotion and they can look very rationally at the at patterns so just like you're explaining she discovered that there was a pattern to changing her speech that would make her more attractive to investors you only get that by being able to distance yourself from the emotion I mean just think about any anybody who works in a nonprofit when they talk about their nonprofit they get very excited right they have a very sing song voice and they show lots of energy that turns investors off because investors are like I see you have lots of energy show me it's going to work so she had to distance herself from that and train herself to adopt a different tone of voice she had to train herself to adopt a different style she had to train and that's just what we saw that's just what you see in the videos think about what she must have had to do when she went to investor meetings or when she was out in public or when she went to negotiations at the negotiating table she had to change everything about herself who can do that most people if they feel like they have to change who they are they actually just leave they they leave the job they go work somewhere else they change their career that's not what she did she changed herself to make herself more successful that is a that is a key behavior in your in your antisocial personality disorder because they are able because they lack empathy they are able to adopt practical rational changes that make them more attractive to the lay person it's it's a it's a powerful tool that undermines you and me and every normal person out there it undermines our own survival Instinct because they conform to something that we find attractive they conform to someone who is stoic we're attracted to someone who is stoic they conform to someone who is uh who is predictable and precise and uh consistent we are attracted to all of those things so it's so so so difficult if you don't have the multiple phase Gates that we've talked about if you don't ask yourself is this person one of 10 if you don't ask yourself do I like them too fast if you don't give yourself time distance and change in direction if you don't put those barriers in place then you're going to just jump right over them because the person that you're talking to is so appealing it is the very fact that they're so appealing that should make you second guess them so when I think about how on Earth so talking about you know the conmen this woman has become so famous for it because no other female really has done it to that extreme so that's what made me then ask how much did she actually use seduction as part of the manipulation tool to get I'm just going to be honest they were old white men with a lot of money at least that's what the movie made and the documentary made out but like how much of it was her using seduction as a female as part of that strategy along with everything else that you said to land those deals I don't so what I've read I don't know whether or not she was actively seducing donors yeah I don't know either but what I do know is that she was in a secret relationship with the coo oh so if you think about it the number one person that she would have needed to achieve her goals would be an inside threat or an Insider and an Insider inside the executive team is the perfect person to have because what is your investor what are your investors going to do they're going to ask the chief of operations to validate the claims of the chief executive officer so she was having a clandestine affair with the COO and the COO was the one who was complicit in validating her false information so whether she was the one who originated the idea or whether or not that seduction was a form of of manipulation on her part we don't know for sure but the elements are there like the elements are there to see that somebody was a puppet master somebody was the one coming up with the ideas and somebody was the one following the lead of the Puppet Master what I think is so fascinating is even though we live in a Society where it's very natural and common for us to put blame on men and for us to uh accommodate women with some sort of assumed innocence in this case she has taken she was so involved and she was so complient in the illegal activity that people are just they're they're not giving her the benefit of the doubt that she was anything other than the ring leader which speaks to me it speaks to the value of information and transparency and the changing nature of of some of our base assumptions mhm and that's why I wanted to make sure that we spoke about it today because I didn't want our base assumptions to be going back to what I said earlier the wolf with the fangs and the drao right it's like no no it can actually come in any shape and size and it can be the thing that you don't expect and um so yeah I actually didn't realize that she went in that she was uh in a secretive relationship with a COO that makes a lot more sense more sense and now I'm really curious to know which one happened first right did she get into the relationship with the c and that led to her them being able to manipulate fascinating one of the things that I always try to think through I'm a man of faith I come from a Christian background and uh people talk about Satan Lucifer right the the ultimate demon and a lot of times we create in our minds this idea that the villain the demon is scary and dark and fangs just like you described the wolf every account of Satan is that he is beautiful he's handsome right he's he is attractive in all ways which is why he was able to trick eve even as a serpent something something as as villainous as we think snakes are in the Garden of Good and Evil before anybody had the knowledge of Good and Evil a serpent was just neutral so biblically we have been warned that Satan the ultimate form of evil is very attractive and then when you look at the cases we talk about Elizabeth was a very attractive woman yeah the tnd have you seen pictures of the Tinder he was a good looking dude these are not the people that you would look at and and reject they are the kind of people that you would look at and be immediately and be attracted to they are appealing people they look normal they look fit they look handsome or pretty like they are the equivalent of what the Bible has always warned us about with Lucifer which to me is so interesting because what CIA train us to be is called gray men we we hide in plain sight we blend in one of the keys to us blending in is that we cannot be attractive and we cannot be hideous interesting because both of those extremes would make you memorable so if you ever actually get a chance to walk through the halls of CIA what you see is a bunch of nondescript not unattractive but not attractive people because you need to be able to blend in so unless somebody is into crazy hair and a giant five head and a big Greek nose they're not going to think that I'm attractive right I grew up just like you grew up bullied about my looks bullied about how thin I was and I wasn't you know I wasn't a handsome white guy in a in a white State like I that that was my upbringing so for me to find power in the anonymity made me very susceptible to cia's pitch to come essentially dedicate my life in service to my country wow and that's it's so uh contrary to what Hollywood and what movies make us think Hollywood and movies make us think that there's power in being beautiful there is but it's manipulative power right the real power that you get from life is in in doing what you say you will do and being a person of action and being a person of conviction and being a person that people can rely on because when people can rely on you they will let you into their private life and their secret life and what we have to remember is that no matter how beautiful a person is no matter how non-threatening a person looks they must show us the same thing they must show us consistency they must show us uh constant respect they must show us some sort of continuity to earn earn our trust instead of just slipping us into trust because we like them so much yeah or falling into trust um talk to me about then the power of Seduction how much you guys taught that um how much of sexpionage are you allowed to talk about um but I if you don't want to explain what sexp anology is and then how the power of Seduction in what you do and then just in the real world of when it comes to a female being manipulated absolutely so there's uh sexpionage is a a term that we use that merges sex and Espionage and to really understand what sexpionage is you have to what Espionage is and Espionage is the stealing of Secrets it's illegal everywhere it's illegal in corporations it's illegal in National Security it's illegal in the United States it's illegal everywhere the reason that intelligence Community agencies like CIA or NSA the reason that we can engage in Espionage is because there is a carve out inside the uh American uh legal code that makes it so that if you're carrying out Espionage activities on behalf of the federal government in foreign locations you won't be convicted inside the United States right so that's that's what makes Espionage legal for CIA and NSA and Dia Etc um sex is the or sex minage is the place where sex is part of the operational tool in Espionage so that's where sexpionage comes from sexpionage is very very popular in authoritarian countries uh China Russia North Korea uh Iran um some places like uh turkey and Cuba these are countries where they leverage sexpionage because the rights of the individual are reduced and the survival of the state is Paramount inside the United States the rights of the individual are very very strong so in the United States we do not encourage enforce or demand our officers engage in any kind of sexpionage in fact we actually train quite the opposite we train the opposite because in the western mindset once sex has occurred there's a a sense of connection a sense of intimacy that's that's ingrained that's wired into us by our culture so once whether you're male or female once that line has been crossed you feel an intrinsic sense of connection and obligation to your partner in sex even if it's a hookup you still feel some kind of connection which is often times what makes people run away from hookups because they feel that connection it scares them and then they're like to hell with that I got to get away right if it was truly just a friend with benefits truly just an innocent hookup then it would be very different Europe actually has a closer sense of like casual sex than anybody in the United States so sexpionage is the act of using sex to get Secrets illegally very very popular with our adversaries and and exceptionally uh effective against Americans because we inside the United States we have one of the most conservative um cultures when it comes to sex even still even with how prevalent porn is and how prevalent dating apps are and Casual hookups and we have codes for everything even with all that sex is still something that lives in our secret life right we don't want to talk to even our closest friends and family we don't want to talk about sex we don't want to talk about who we had sex with if it was good if it was bad details whatever else in other parts of the world like in Europe that's not a thing yeah in Europe nudity on TV no one cares no one cares that's just that's how that's how it is right in Latin America it's the same way right they they they'll tell these stories about what happens men and women alike because they'll trust their internal groups even in the Middle East one of the most conservative uh parts of the world women will share details with other women men will share details with other men but men don't talk to women so it's a different story right so we have a very unique susceptibility because of our anglosaxon waspy ways where sex is something that is very embarrassing and shameful to us even in a married relationship we still don't really talk about sex we we talk about miscarriages and we talk about not having children and we talk about whatever the byproducts are of sex but it's not like we talk to our girlfriends or boyfriends about the sexual activities we have with our spouse so for that very reason because there's so much shame and guilt around sex foreign adversaries targeting American citizens will leverage sex beage because they know that if you can get an American politician or an American Military engineer or an American intelligence officer to engage in a sexual act you will almost instantly be pulled into their secret life Wow and does that thinking about how that transpires in the world in your CIA life I always think about how that can transpire to a regular person that's listening right now and so thinking through the like the power of sex right the the oxytocin that when you sleep especially women with the guys I did this whole interview about oxytocin and the difference of like when if you're having a one night stand for instance a guy can keep having sex and not activate the oxytocin whereas a woman apparently over time the oxytocin starts to release so even if they were just going to be one night stand it actually turned into they fell for the guy but that's why women fall for guys and then guys won't fall for the women on one night stands and so thinking through that right thinking through the reality of how women perceive sex and men do then thinking through how if you once you've had the sex you then in immediately go into that secret life I can see how this could be a tool um for someone to really almost give themselves over to someone that they maybe shouldn't or someone they can't trust absolutely so I mean you're you're hitting on so many important points there and one of the key points that I want to that I want to highlight that you're hitting on that we haven't talked about is it it takes a certain recipe of person to even have a one night stand not all people will have one night stands right it takes a certain recipe of person that has to be uh if you think about the man who's having sex on the one night stand chances are he's probably kissing a lot of frogs trying to find the one nightst before he actually finds it right so let's talk about the kind of person that is that is susceptible to that one night stand there there are we're taught at the agency that there are three primary sources of energy in our psyche right cognitively and that through our life we reprioritize what those energies are but they're always the same three uh there's Creative Energy Collective energy and connection energy so I'll use my daughter as an example my daughter is six years old she is at her I've never seen her so creative she draws she dances she paints she face paints like and she can go into a corner and spend two hours drawing something and come out of that corner energized because one of the key elements of these of these three energy types is that they increase your energy so the more time that you are in a creative mode when you are in a Creative Energy uh Primacy the more energy you have coming out of that mode I don't know what you feel like when you come out after drawing yeah I feel so energized you feel super energized in that creative space there are other times in our life when we are energized by Collective activity which means you're part of a community so if you think about people who uh do social work you think about people who are Community organizers you think about people who are engaged in uh anything from like the uh the neighborhood watch all the way up to volunteering at their Church These are people who come out of big events they come out of meetings they come out of church services energized because they got energy being in a collective environment they feel like they were part of something larger than themselves and that energizes them creatives feel like they are creating something new and that energizes them the third form is called connected energy connected energy are people who get energy from deep intimate connections with one or few other people we all have all three all everybody has some level of connected energy some level of collective energy some level of Creative Energy but we also are predominantly driven by one form at any given time in our life if you think back to 16-year-old Lisa there's a good chance that she was energized by Collective energy because she was feeling rejected by the school administrators and the principles and the people that she was bullied by so when she was accepted by a larger group it probably gave you a great deal of energy you were probably also energized by art and you were probably also energized by say a close relationship with Mom or Dad or somebody else but you may have predominantly been driven by Collective energy that's certainly what I was like in Middle School I think that's what a lot of people were like in middle school as we grow into adults especially when we're young professionals like 23 to 33 there's an element of collective energy that's fading away as we look for that person we want to connect with who's going to be my partner in crime who's going to be my go-to who's going to be my you know Harry and Sally kind of thing right who's going to be that person that I connect with on a deep intimate level as we get into our Sunset years as we grow into our like late 30s 40s into our 50s we become very very that Sunset years that should be sunrise is come on now sorry it's sunset in terms of work let's say work right but as we get to those Peak years those Peak productivity years we are looking for connection most of us we shift into this connected energy phase where now it's I need a partner that's going to grow old with me that I can trust that's going to that's going to be there for me when I need someone there and that person who will sit on a rocking chair and watch the sunset with me right that's those connected years interestingly once we get past those years into our 60s and 70s we turn back towards creative Endeavors again and we start painting and we start listening to music or we start learning piano or whatever else it might be we start knitting and we start quilting whatever else but my point with all of that is the ripest person for manipulation is the person who's in the connected energy phase of their life because that person wants more than anything to connect with somebody else and that connection energizes them so when you think about the one night stand where the woman gets connected to the man and the man doesn't really care the man is very likely in the Ive phase of his energy cycle and the woman is in the connected phase of her energy cycle so they're both being energized by the experience but they're being energized to do two different outcomes she feels like she's connected to someone who she can trust or someone she wants to trust he feels like he connected to somebody's part of his Collective and now he's got five girlfriends instead of four so is by that definition then if you're looking for to get on the inside to go from let's say public to priv private or private to Secret in a woman's life that they're more likely to do in their older age because they're looking for that connection correct it's and it's not just women it's men too there's that that age from about 35 to mid-50s we're really really hungry for some sort of connection and if we don't find the connection romantically then we will look for the connection through book clubs or through Social Clubs U my grandmother is in her 80s and she belongs to a bridge club right she's looking for connection even though she you know my grandfather has passed and she's she lives alone she's still looking for someone she can connect with and just romance is no longer the primary reason that she's looking for that connection she spends a majority of her time creating right drawing uh making postcards taking pictures making scrapbooks but the thing that energizes her still is connection so if you were looking to as we're talking about connection and the seduction and the sexpionage if you were looking your job was to you had to get a female from public or to secret sorry if you're looking to seduce or how much of Seduction would be a part of that and then how much of her age then would you look at and determine or would how much of that would be useful to you in determining who you choose to then seduce so first of all connection and seduction are not always the same thing MH right seduction usually implies sex connection doesn't have to imply sex oftentimes connection will have an element of sex but seduction is usually fully sex so if I had to uh if I had to penetrate into the secret life of a female who I determined had connected energy needs meaning she could she would be energized by a connected relationship and she currently doesn't have one that energizes her that's what you would look for that's what I would look for right or if somebody were to task me with targeting a female of say 43 one of the first things I would look at is is she in the connected phase of her energy cycle is she in the collective phase of her energy cycle is she in the creative phase of her energy cycle because to get into that person's Secret Life the most important thing is that you have to give them the thing that they want and the thing that most everybody wants is energy they want more hours in the day they want more time to be awake they want to be more alert they want to have someone that's interesting to them right so if you know where they are in their ccle you can give them exactly the thing they're looking for which is energy in the day it's why we all drink so much caffeine so if I found a woman who had connected energy I know I cannot sleep with her I can't be the one she connects with on an intimate level because if I do I will be compromising myself inside of my Western mindset and I will be setting her up for a situation where I can never leave so that's something we call institutionalization if I want her information for more than say 6 months I can't be the one sleeping with her and I don't want to sleep with her because I don't want to compromise myself to the rubric of of intimacy but she still needs someone to sleep with so how do I get into her connected secret life without being the one that sleeps with her I help her find the person who will sleep with her maybe that means I find the jigo for her maybe that means I find the boyfriend for her maybe that means I sit next to her I help her her make sure that she is not picking the wrong person or I help her vet the right person or I'm her person that she calls before and after every date there's all sorts of ways to build connection and intimacy without building sex and that's one of the things that's that can be very difficult when a woman is in a manipulative relationship because if a woman is in a manipulative relationship and she's looking for the sexual component if she's with someone who is truly antisocial personality disorder often times they will pull back sex they will pull back intimacy they will use it as a form of capital to reward or punish and and get that person to behave in a certain way so sometimes you're beautiful sometimes you're ugly sometimes you're pretty sometimes you're fat sometimes I'll come on to you sometimes I'll reject you when you come on to me it's a a huge lever that exists in manipulative relationships when somebody understands you're looking for connection and they use that connection to keep you in line again we we're talking about warning flags right when somebody makes you feel like everything is your fault that is a huge warning flag that you are in an abusive relationship with one of the 10 yeah one out of 10 right if someone is making you uh if they're trying to segregate you or isolate you from friends and family that you've always had big sign that you're dealing with one out of the 10 if someone is pulling back intimacy and pulling back love what what you've probably heard is is unconditional love when someone puts conditions on affection it's a big chance that you're dealing with somebody who is one of the 10 narcissist sociopath or psychopath and they're trying to manipulate you the one caution that I want to throw out there because it can be it can sound overly simple based on what we just said I know nobody's sitting here thinking that it's easy but I don't want women to think that now all the sudden they can just do three things and be safe forever right and I definitely don't want women to think that oh I'm in a relationship with a guy who doesn't show a lot of emotion so he must be a psychopath so I'm going to end this relationship right now I also want to validate some of the women out there who are like Andy my man fits all of your descriptions but I don't think there's anything wrong with him there is a lot of misdiagnosis that happens for narcissistic behavior Psychopathic behavior and sociopathy the and the misdiagnosis is autism so if you think about all of your antisocial personality disorders and you put them on a spectrum parallel to that spectrum is the autism spectrum and autism and parents of autistic children are often times worrying or studying is my child a psychopath does does my child have an antisocial personality disorder or are they autistic wow because the behaviors can often times appear the same way and it's critical for us in the field as well to know whether we're dealing with somebody who's on the autism spectrum ASD versus somebody who's on the narcissistic Spectrum right uh uh NPD so we're always trying to make sure that we isolate and understand who we're dealing with that doesn't mean that autistic people look and sound like sociopaths or Psychopaths they're completely different people the the reason that the behaviors they have can overlap or for completely different reasons right but the big thing to keep in mind is that when when you are dealing with somebody who seems like they are not emotional or when you're dealing with somebody who has huge changes in Emotion because remember Psychopaths seem cold blooded sociopaths very volatile so if you're dealing with somebody who be who exhibits either of those behaviors you might also be dealing with somebody who's on the autistic spectrum and what you have to recognize is that if they are autistic then their Primary Emotion is frustration interesting because autism makes it difficult for people to communicate and it makes it difficult for people to understand what you're trying to communicate with them so when they get angry if they get angry it's coming from a place of frustration they're not calling you stupid they're not calling you fat they're not calling you ugly they're saying I don't understand it seems so simple to you it doesn't make sense to me that's where they're coming from when you hear stuff like you're overreacting and uh you you're taking it the wrong way or why are you so sensitive now you're deal that's gaslighting that's somebody saying there's something wrong with you when you're dealing with someone with autism they're coming from a place of frustration they're not coming from a place of Cruelty or victimization or emotional abuse when you see those signs you know you're dealing with somebody that has antisocial personality disorder even though the behaviors might seem the same the content of what they're arguing with you about is very different now that's for aspd the thing that's commonly misunderstood for narciss nistic personality disorder or narcissism is Asbergers Asbergers is is currently something that doesn't like clinically exist it's a term that's still a hold over from the early 2000s but what Asbergers means is that somebody doesn't fit in well in society it's recognized now as a as a high performing version of autism if somebody is a high performing autistic then they are claimed to have Asbergers they have empathy they can make decisions they understand rules and Law and Order right all the things that don't exist in a psychopath and don't exist in a narcissist in an Asbergers person all those things exist but they they have a difficulty fitting into society so what they try to do is emulate Society they're aware of it enough and they're aware that it doesn't serve them to what they're trying to get so they can fake it knowing full well what they're doing and and because they're faking it and in that faking process they're always always looking to be validated that they're faking it appropriately oh so they can come across as narcissists even though they're not right the key thing to understand about a narcissist is that a narcissist will tear you down to make them feel good somebody with Asbergers will not tear you down but they will constantly be seeking validation right did I do this right did I do this right did I do this right why don't you love me why don't you like me like I need to be important nobody at work recognizes me you don't recognize me here at home right that that's signs of somebody who's got Asbergers they're seeking validation they don't seek that validation at the cost of tearing you down that's something that comes from a narcissist so I say this because if you think that 10% of American adults fall into the realm of antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder right psychopath sociopath and narcissist when you add on to that the whole population that falls under Asbergers and uh and autism now that 10 turns into 15% so now you're talking almost 45 million Americans fall into one of those four categories we that means one out of every like seven people you meet are one of those four are are on the Spectrum for one of those four and it's very important that we don't misunderstand who we're with because we could throw away a perfectly good relationship or we could make ourselves vulnerable to an abuse that that we don't even see thank you so much for breaking that down that's always one thing that I want to make sure that when I do these types of interviews that we don't start labeling people misdiagnosing people but it is also like how do we take the tools how do we take all the tips and tactics that you said so that we can get better we can improve we can protect ourselves we do have the control to be able to make decisions with our eyes wider open and that you've done in space but I never want that to be to detriment to other people getting labeled on misdiagnosed um and so understanding those differences I think is super important um and then knowing how to then respond to those differences which you've already broken down beautifully I'm glad yeah it's it's uh I come from a place where I use these skills for for nefarious purposes in a foreign country but to help us here in the United States and it's the same skill set that I teach to my daughter it's the same skill set that I teach to my nieces it's the same it's what I've given to every all the females in my life because I want them to be equipped to understand there are people out there who want your best interests and those people are what we call motivational people right they want you to get what you want because it's in your best interest the flip side of motivation though is manipulation and manipulation is when people get you to do what they want you to do because it's in their best interest you have to be able to identify the differ between the two sides of the same coin otherwise once you are manipulated it's very difficult to flip the coin back over so what you really have to do is be aware of the warning signs in advance understand that there are certain elements of our society that put you at a disadvantage right away especially if you are a female especially if you are a high achieving successful female because all the things that made you high achieving and successful were that you were forced to follow follow a rubric of expectations that were set by someone else so guess what you have just built a behavioral process of doing following somebody else's orders so when a manipulator steps in and starts to give you orders because of the rubric that you're already within you may not even realize they're manipulating you until it feels like it's too late having met you multiple times before you came on the show and then me reaching out to ask you to come on you know one of the things you said to me is women in your life are so important to you and so being here and helping women is you know something that you've really feel passionate about and I really want to thank you for today I think you've done that in spade and like I said being able to have things that we can go back to so we don't feel helpless powerless is um a gift that I wish every woman could give each other and so I don't often have men on this show but because of the knowledge and the um wisdom that you bring to the table to help us women I just want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart no it is my pleasure thank you so much for having how where can people find you and everything that you're doing absolutely so you can find me at my uh my business is everyday spy my homepage is everydays spy.com I'm also online uh on all social media platforms at everydays spy uh and you can find my podcast on YouTube at the everyday spy podcast if you want to learn the psychological tricks to read anyone and spot a liar then click here right now this former interrogator for the Department of Defense Elite polygraph unit is now using her experience and training to demonstrate in her new book becoming bulletproof how we can protect ourselves read people

Channel: Lisa Bilyeu

Views: 290,149

Keywords: women of impact, woman of impact, lisa bilyeu, tom bilyeu, impact theory, quest nutrition, motivation, inspiration

Id: LSTIZ7RwqrY

Length: 135min 23sec (8123 seconds)

Published: Wed May 08 2024