Narcissistic rock bottom

hey everyone it's dr romini welcome back to this youtube channel on all things related to understanding narcissism narcissistic personalities and difficult relationships all around so let's take on this question which is a big one a lot of people ask me is there such a thing as when a narcissistic person hits rock bottom you better believe there is and i want to break that down for you the term rock bottom often comes up in the addiction world it's that moment that event a time of recognition when the person who is excessively using substances or is addicted hits a point where they recognize that either they change or they die and when it comes to addiction some people die and that's one of the worst tragedies of addiction many more recognize that they have to do something that this is it that they can't just go for one more hit and they do it not because their friends are telling them or a doctor is telling them or a therapist is telling them or a family did an intervention but because they themselves make that decision and say it's time and they commit to the work of recovery and long-term sobriety and it's work and for rock bottom is not always where it ends for some people but it is often an important starting point and the work might be working a 12-step program some other form of commitment to long-term recovery programs long-term therapy it's a different path for anyone recovering from addiction but talk to anyone who is committed to long-term sobriety and they'll tell you it's daily work and it's daily commitment and it often means an overhaul of a life it may mean a new job a new line of work a new place to live a new group of friends the new life may actually be relatively unrecognizable and characterized by sobriety but what about rock bottom with a pattern such as narcissism could there actually be such a thing as a rock bottom what would it mean what would it look like there are more than a few people out there who liken narcissism to addiction so that they would say that the the narcissistic person is blindly driven and craves out outside admiration and validation becomes their addiction if they can't have it they crave it they will go to great lengths to get it they'll become irritable depressed and angry if they can't have it they are constantly in denial they will rationalize their behavior there there is absolutely a lot of impulsivity there's egocentricity those patterns right there those are shared between narcissism and addiction right we see them in both patterns i would argue that there are many many similar top notes to narcissism and addiction but in the absence of we're still waiting i guess but in the absence of neuroscience hammering down the pathways of addiction as being the same in narcissism and addiction and so far the science in the science there isn't much to suggest that this is the case there's some intriguing studies but it's we're not quite there it may fall into the premise that narcissism compulsive substance use and any compulsive behavior may have some common foundations and may all reflect regulatory deficits that come out in these dysregulated ways but all of that said it keeps coming back i want to bring it back to that question is there such a thing as a rock bottom for a narcissist and i would argue possibly yes let's start with something that many of us know but i actually do not think i talk about enough i have not really talked about it much on this channel people who are narcissistic are not necessarily having a good time in fact i would argue that they are much much more miserable than the rest of us to be narcissistic is a very anxious way to live they are afraid of criticism of abandonment of being publicly found out of publicly called out of losing their stuff of losing their power of losing their status of getting old of getting sick i would argue that this is something called narcissistic anxiety a topic we've actually actually tackle in another video narcissistic anxiety is sort of much more around things that are more related to the narcissistic personality different than the sort of general neurotic anxiety the rest of us might experience so when you're so when you account for all of the anxiety in the narcissistic person which they fight back on with their really unpleasant defenses right they push back on all that anxiety with grandiosity entitlement arrogance self-protective rage it's very pleasant not only for everyone around them but frankly for themselves as well and they do suffer i have spent throughout my career working with clients who are narcissistic and they're very very vulnerable and instead of sharing their vulnerability in a way that draws people closer the closer their vulnerability gets to the surface it comes out as a volcanic rage as though they're disgusted by their own vulnerability being shown to the world and bringing up shame rock bottom is definitely a thing for narcissistic individuals when i think of the anecdotal cases out there that i've read or heard about or people i've worked with over the years it's an interesting laundry list of issues that comes up that that could have thrown a narcissistic person into rock bottom some of the things that can really push a narcissistic person to rock bottom include going to jail losing a business being fired being evicted having a home foreclosed on losing a lawsuit having a partner leaving leave them losing custody of children filing bankruptcy adult children who cut all ties with them and keep grandchildren from them being the target of a publicly humiliating news story for example they get caught doing something and it's covered in the news getting publicly called out in an extra marital affair for folks like that the wheels come off and they really really find that they cannot get the ship upright again their charm isn't saving them this time remember that one of the things that enables narcissistic behavior is the lack of consequences and because so many people who are narcissistic get so many second chances and they get so many people giving them the benefit of the doubt or they're able to hire attorneys who get them off the hook it often means that people who are narcissistic will do bad things over and over and over again and whether through luck or real you know getting in there and fixing it they just never face consequences and the blame shifting that is such a part of narcissistic personality styles means that they're really made of teflon nothing sticks to them and they can almost always successfully convince people or just bully them down leading other people to believe that someone else is responsible for the narcissistic person's bad behavior but sometimes all the lawyers money and power can't make it right the things that the narcissistic person wants most for example the idea of being part of a family or the idea of their about about their career or their reputation as a humanitarian all goes away the whole fantasy goes away and they are left sifting through the wreckage not everyone who is narcissistic will hit this rock bottom that may spur this meaningful shift or change in them some do but not all do just like the addicts who end up dying because they overdose or get sick before they start changing behavior some and it is likely that most narcissistic people who face these absolutely devastating losses or falls from glory or falls from success will likely spend the rest of their lives resentful sullen angry at the world victimized and remain rageful in these cases their rock bottom leads to a lonely angry isolated life with most of their bridges burned and anyone who actually does spend time around them is either being paid to do so or they themselves have no other options there is however a small number of narcissistic people who fall all the way down and something happens to them and they do become self-reflective they take a long look around most often this happens while they're working along a good and very patient therapist and they recognize the mess that they've made they start to see their role in it and they begin to be able to absorb it there are many people who ask me if there is a 12-step program for narcissism as far as i know there is not and i don't know if the principles would work for a personality style change given the rigidity of these styles but since we do know that narcissism and addiction are so frequently co-occurring perhaps there could be some utility in some of the principles and in the regularity of sort of doing the daily work on it but in that small group of narcissistic individuals for whom it all crashes down they really kind of hit that rock bottom and there is a shift in humility responsibility taking they're sometimes an attempt to really make amends making amends may be in some cases reaching out to people to take responsibility and ownership but making amends may also be and makes may also involve stepping out of the limelight not having to be the center of attention anymore giving up on some of their superficial nonsense shutting down the social media accounts no longer feeling the need to be the center of attention listening to other people when they speak being more mindful and taking pleasure in the small things that they never noticed before or would be annoyed by for those of you watching this who believe that you yourselves are narcissistic i do believe this is possible it is possible to make these shifts but just like sobriety it's work it's daily work and you have to believe in it you can't fake it people who are sober over time genuinely embrace the value and importance of committing to sobriety in their lives people who are in recovery from narcissism or with narcissism would have to embrace the value and importance of empathy intimacy compassion self-regulation self-soothing and self-compassion rock bottom is when the validation gravy train ends for the narcissistic person we see it happen in the news all the time in fact i read the news with an eye to seeing which of these narcissistic folks is going to hit rock bottom the financier goes to jail the sexual perpetrator who's a studio head goes to jail the celebrity who walked around saying that their brand is compassion or kindness is publicly called out as harsh and unkind and it's not just happening on a public stage many of us have seen it happen in ordinary ways in ordinary lives the tyrannical colleague at a small business finally gets fired for harassment your friend finally leaves their serial cheater spouse the cruel patriarch of a family finally has his parents finally has his ban finally has his family turn their backs on him because they have their own jobs now and they no longer need his money and now he's all alone in his big house being left to figure it all out some narcissistic people are successful enough to shield themselves from the fallout from the sort of proverbial rock bottom with money but ultimately there is no money in the world that is a substitute for validation from other people for narcissistic people and when a narcissistic person hits rock bottom the money may no longer purchase the validation in the same way people may not want to get near someone who's been in such a scandal narcissistic people who don't have money will experience a significant shift in their circumstances the comfortable home or the spacious home they lived in becomes a living in a much less comfortable place in a much less desirable place the nice car becomes a not so nice car or no car at all the new job is a major downgrade from their previous elite ones and the shame over this downgrading may result in either anger or the narcissistic person almost sort of disappearing off the radar so people do not see what has happened to them it is incredibly unlikely unfortunately that a person who is narcissistic would attempt to take the existential high road and find meaning and purpose at the time that they were down and yet if they could do that they would really be able to walk out of this in a different way but if they could do that they may not have gotten into this mess in the first place the experience of aging can also be associated with getting to sort of the narcissistic rock bottom for some folks we see the acquisition of doing something sort of the acquisition of a much younger spouse or partner or a much younger lifestyle as a way to keep the hope or the myth of eternal youth alive a central need that exists for narcissistic people to always be young for other people they may maintain their commitment to use via numerous surgeries numerous cosmetic procedures lots of exercise wearing youthful fashion it's a way to stave it off and maintain the illusion of youth but the body does what the body does and you can't ever fully outrun aging this experience of frailty of erections that just don't want to arrive of skin that sags of mental acuity that fades all of this can also contribute to the arrival of rock bottom for a narcissistic person especially if aging is associated with a loss of power a loss of attractiveness a loss of vigor or recognition that that that that they just can't manage this they can't manage that this is that they're not going to be that sort of big powerful person anymore if you're in a relationship with someone narcissistic please however i promise me you will not waste your time waiting for them to hit rock bottom so they may change you may get pulled down into that rock bottom with them okay so there's really no such thing as an intervention for narcissists you can't ambush them and confront them with their lack of empathy their entitlement their arrogance and all the rest of it can you imagine how that would play out you imagine taking the narcissistic person in your life and four of you sort of taking them down for that the word salad would probably last for hours if the relationship is unhealthy set boundaries make choices create workarounds but stop waiting for the bottom to fall out maybe it will but even if it does it may not yield the result you want the process of getting to narcissistic rock bottom is a very personal one and it's a journey that they have to go on alone i have witnessed many narcissistic individuals hit rock bottom in my years of doing this work and like all rock bottoms it is not pretty most of what i have witnessed is a lot of self-victimization the world wasn't fair to me why was everyone out to get me life isn't fair the world isn't fair he isn't fair she isn't fair they aren't fair nobody's fair where is my justice why did this happen that kind of stuff they'll talk about witch hunts there are a few with sometimes they'll say ah i need to get my stuff together but when action is required they will say it's not fair that everything's not coming together more easily and getting fixed and in the most extreme cases upon hitting rock bottom please be aware that some narcissistic individuals do become suicidal or will evidence extreme psychiatric reactions including reactions that may look like manic or psychotic reactions the loss of identity the shame and the lack of coping skills can overwhelm the person at such times if this is happening to you or to someone in your midst please contact your your local emergency services or the suicide hotline for further assistance don't attempt to intervene on this on your own such crises no matter how difficult your relationship was with this person should never be minimized please make sure you get appropriate help at those times short answer is that there is such a thing as rock bottom for a narcissistic person no not all people will experience it and most will not change in the face of it but it is a turning point for better or worse for people with this personality style so it's a lot to think about it does happen i've seen it myself those of you who have seen it you know what this looks like and again everyone's got their own journey and you're not going to change that journey and nor you're going to rescue anyone from it thanks

Channel: DoctorRamani

Views: 186,323

Rating: 4.9446621 out of 5

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Id: wzFp98CNZUI

Length: 20min 46sec (1246 seconds)

Published: Sun Feb 28 2021

Reddit Comments

[u/justjboy]

I personally liked this video of hers. She has interesting insights here and there, where it feels more like she’s trying to speak to healing as opposed to why and how you should avoid a narcissist.

I relate to the “rock bottom” concept. There to come points where you really start to question how healthy the patterns are.

[u/EconomicThinker]

Do you ever feel like she exaggerates everything? Every YouTube channel demonizes NPD as if there’s absolutely nothing good in us. I think these types of channels make so money feeding exaggerations because that’s that the people want. Perhaps a coping mechanism for those who watch? Like not all narcissists are the same..

[u/Character_Bend_2251]

I saw this, what do y’all think? She went from saying narcissists can change if they work hard enough to saying nobody ever really changes. Way to cater to both sides of the fence, make that money, BooBoo.